Debate 01: Stagnation of gaming

[ThirdMarioBro]

I came up with an idea last night. There's not much to talk about this time of year seeing as everyone is tight lipped until E3, so why not try something new.

I thought it might be a good idea to maybe start a series of debates on some topics that are relavant to the modern gaming industry. Why not start with something that bothers a lot of people.

Do you believe that video gaming is begenning to stagnate? Is the Electronic Entertainment Industry repeating itself and going to run itself into the ground with old ideas running themselves to death, or are people happy with this and everything going to be fine? You be the judge.

[愛]

It's hard to say. As long as Nintendo is around, there will always be something whacked out crazy coming out. Japanese games tend to go a little out there in terms of games, so if we do indeed see these in the states, I think that would bring the industry out of this "stagnation" that we're in.

I suppose it's really up to what the people want. Now that everyone plays games these days, there's something for everybody, and businesses know that they will buy franchises they like, so there's really no reason to change a whole lot. Hardcore gamers like us tend to like some form of change in our favorite franchises, and not enough companies are compensating for our desire for variety.

No one can see the future, and this industry is forever changing. We could see something wonderful in the near future, or we could be in the same "make GTA 500000 times" era for a while. My prediction is we'll have this stagnation for about another year, and then something awesome will be released that will change the industry for the better.

[raphael_is_cool]

You can boil so many games down to simple premises. It's just a matter of what new things you can do with it.

Some people are happy to find new applications of certain elements of games while others just want 'something new' and don't care whether it gets boring very quickly because it's 'innovative'.

It's hard to find a balance of both and gaming has become so popular that it really is a massively profitable market and is therefore subject to the old rules of 'supply and demand'.

Everyone's bound to find something they like, even if they're a hardcore fanbaby.

While I'm only a slightly-more-than-casual gamer (oh, shoot me) all I need is for a game to entertain me occasionally. The most important factor is replayability and that's something a lot of games lack.

[Kid Icarus]

I'm siding with Nintendo (supprise there, huh?) on the concept that improving a consoles power is just one way to improve the gameplay experiance. I mean, just look at some of the games on the DS now... Nintendogs is a good example of a game that just won't work on anything else (maybe a PC, but not nearly as well).

Online gaming, once it's free, could be another thing to spark the industry. There has to be a solid feel of 'community' though, to keep the game alive. Diablo 2 has it, Warcraft has it, and WoW has it. But those are for the PC, and PC gamers have it easy... they just have to be on their console to be able to talk to other users.

I think Pictochat's a good starting point for it all though. DS games can access it, every DS owner knows the interface, and i'm sure there's some logic behind only have 4 rooms (perhaps each server cluster supports 64 players online at a time?)

And developers working together. We've seen some incredible games come from this (F-Zero GX, Enix's games have gotten better since the merger with Square from what I'm told, and MGS:TTS). The more creative minds you have together, the more creative the end product's going to be.

Sony's done something really cool with the Eye Toy concept as well, but it dosen't really have a great title for it yet. I can see a lot of possiblities with this.

[Peanut]

Personally, I'm fine with gaming the way it is right now. Lately things have been slow game wise for me, but that's because I'm always broke, not because there's a lack of good games to play. I really think the whole "innovation" thing is a bit overrated. People slam companies for doing the "same thing" even though it's fun as hell.

I really don't care about new ways to play. All I care about is playing good games, and I can't complain about that. Nintendo's whole "we need innovation" thing is really tiring to me. I don't see a need for it. Gaming isn't getting boring, and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon either. I'd be perfectly happy if all the new consoles just updated technology wise and didn't offer a "new way to play". If Revolution were to go ahead with the ridiculous touch screen control thing...well I'd think twice before buying it, where as if they had just released a new console with updated technology I'd buy it right away.

So basically, I don't care about innovation. I don't care about creating new ways to play. Just give me good f*cking games and I'm happy.

[raphael_is_cool]

So basically, I don't care about innovation. I don't care about creating new ways to play. Just give me good f*cking games and I'm happy.

Amen to that

[Mecha Cow]

Saying innovation is not important is a little bit ignorant if you ask me, no offense. Granted, Nintendo keeps hyping it, but without innovation we'd still all be playing Pong. Hell, without innovation there would not even have been a Pong.

I wouldn't say I think the industry is stagnating because it keeps repeating itself, but I don't always like where it's going. Sure, everyone is in it for the money, but damn it, developers should at least try to make something special. Many games these days are just average or below it, and I don't like that. Even most of the games that are technically well made are just not enjoyable (In my opinion) because they just lack a special touch, they still feel cold and generic. I think of video games as an art form, and good art is made with love. I'm sure that makes me sound like a pussy, but whatever. Go play GTA.

I am a Nintendo fan because in my opinion Nintendo is one of the few developers that actually tries to make their games special. Innovative or not, every Nintendo game is unique. These are the games that I enjoy playing and that make me feel good. I don't usually get this feeling with other games. If that makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy. Maybe if other developers would get off their asses and actually thought of new ideas and actually spent some time on their games instead of cramming them full of lifeless FMV's and sh*tty voice acting, I wouldn't have to stick with one company.

Bigger is not always better.

[raphael_is_cool]

Saying innovation is not important is a little bit ignorant if you ask me, no offense.

Of course it's important but it shouldn't be valued above everything else. I see a lot of Nintendo games that are supposed to be new and inventive but they either don't interest me at all or don't keep me enertained for long. Just one example, Zelda games have new twists, but nothing interesting for me. It got old after OoT in the same way GTA does.

I found the Midway producer's comments on PA quite relevant, that you can boil all games down to simple elements and this is for the most part true.

Just because something's new, it doesn't make it better.

[Mecha Cow]

Of course it's important but it shouldn't be valued above everything else.
I agree, it's an important element of games but it isn't the only one. I guess Nintendo keeps preaching it because it's kind of like their 'gimmick'.

[愛]

Nintendo wouldn't be here today without their gimmick of innovation.

And while innovation is a very important part of developing newer games, sometimes I like to see plenty of games stay the same with a few newer things added to it. For example, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. I've played that game at least 50 times. Literally. If they released that game again on PSP or even PS2 with a few new rooms and items, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. There's some things that you just don't need to change. At least that's how I feel.

[Kid Icarus]

Peanut... again, Iwata's said there won't be a touch screen. It's too costly, and not effective enough. Enough of that though.

Ai, you're right. If it's not broke, don't fix it. I think this is where adding features on, with out hampering old solid ones, comes into play. Add your touch screens, add your cameras, add gyroscopes... but leave the basics intact. As long as a controler has a D pad, analog stick, and some face buttons, developers are free to design the same old stuff they've been working on since the SNES/Genesis era. For the ones that want to be really creative, or have an idea that just won't work without the new features (ie, Namco and Pac-Pix), that's there for them too.

And Nintendo's 'innovation gimmick' isn't a gimmick. Analog control is now standard because of the N64... hell, I could make a list of everything Nintendo's contributed to the industry, but everyone here already knows it. Sony's even using console-handheld connectivity with the PS3, so I guess that wasn't too bad of an idea either, huh?

That's no to say other people haven't changed the industry either.

Without Atari there woulen't have been an industry in the first place, Sega introduced the CD medium, Microsoft made online console play viable, and Sony's working on inputing gamers into the games with their Eye Toy.

What about the games though? How many times can someone play the new Madden before they get bored with the next years release? Can little Johnny play Mario Party 1283792173 without falling asleep because he's done it all before? How many times is Suzy going to have to catch Pikachu to battle the same bland NPC's? I can see a growing need for an uphaul with game design, not just the way we control it. The new controll methods are ways to trigger developers creative juices to flow. Iwata said it best... "When was the last time we, as an industry, created a new genre?". I love my old games... but I want something new to go with them.

[ThirdMarioBro]

I wouldn't say I think the industry is stagnating because it keeps repeating itself, but I don't always like where it's going. Sure, everyone is in it for the money, but damn it, developers should at least try to make something special. Many games these days are just average or below it, and I don't like that. Even most of the games that are technically well made are just not enjoyable (In my opinion) because they just lack a special touch, they still feel cold and generic. I think of video games as an art form, and good art is made with love. I'm sure that makes me sound like a pussy, but whatever. Go play GTA.

Ya see, I wouldn't have a problem as much with all the bad games if they didn't sell, but because they do, it encourages other developers to think they can get away with making crap. Truthfully, they can. That's what pisses me off and makes me think the industry is begenning to stagnate. If people would just snub those bad games, then things would look up. It's happening a little with companies like Acclaim going bust, but it needs to keep happening to flush out the rest. To be fair, even EA's quality has gone up a bit. That might have to do with their falling revenues, but either way, its happening.

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. I've played that game at least 50 times. Literally. If they released that game again on PSP or even PS2 with a few new rooms and items, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

That game is 2D perfection. If you like that, then play the new one coming to DS. It's from the same guy who made SotN. That's the one game I almost bought a used playstation for, but I just opted for using Bleem (with the original game though)

What about the games though? How many times can someone play the new Madden before they get bored with the next years release? Can little Johnny play Mario Party 1283792173 without falling asleep because he's done it all before? How many times is Suzy going to have to catch Pikachu to battle the same bland NPC's? I can see a growing need for an uphaul with game design, not just the way we control it. The new controll methods are ways to trigger developers creative juices to flow. Iwata said it best... "When was the last time we, as an industry, created a new genre?". I love my old games... but I want something new to go with them.

Yeah, Nintendo's guilty of rehashing games too. The only reason the Mario Advance series exists is to make a quick buck on a trusted name. The difference is that they keep trying new things as well. Sega created online gaming, but Microsoft is the first company to actually make it work easily and user friendly.

The new controll methods are ways to trigger developers creative juices to flow.

Yeah, I mean, like a few years ago the once thriving puzzle genre was dead, but the new hardware pushed developers to try new puzzle ideas. Think about it. We've dropped every block, jewel, pill, cookie, gem, bean, tetrad, and combination thereof known to man, and they finally just stopped trying. The touch screen of the DS opened up the idea for things like Metros and Polarium, and the PSP's storage capacity opened up the ability to play to the rythm of a game (Lummies). New interfaces open the gateway to new games, but you have to have someone daring enough to do it in the first place. That's where Ninendo comes in.

[Spitfire]

In a fight like this I have no side to pick really. If I do pick a side it's the side whose fans arent Hellbent on the destruction of everyone else. This is why I now prefere Nintendo products over Sony products. Also I believe Sony makes horrible products. I have a friend whose PS2 controllers break on him all the time and he's rather careful with them/ My PS2 has broken 3 times alone in the past 4 years and I havnt abused it in any way. The replacement I have now is starting to get slow however. It makes tons of noise and it takes forever to read disks. I have had my Super Nintendo since I was 4 and I had thrashed that thing when I was little. The two controllers it came with still work, the games all still work, and the system still works almost like new. The only thing broken on it is the re-set button which isnt broken it's just kinda sticky there and hard to move from something I guess I did to it when I was a kid. So I prefere quality. Sony pays off everyone to make them wonderful games but what's the fun of playing a game on a system that is just going to break and freeze on you?

[Kid Icarus]

that's a bit off topic, but i'll comment on it.

Sony dosent pay anyone off, usually, to get the games. All Sony has to do is market their console as being cooler then the rest, and boom... people want it, usually for no solid reason other then "but ____ says it's fun!". The developers go where the userbase is, peroid (unless they're like Hideo Kojima and view Nintendos system as a childs play toy, but that's not for here...)

[Duke]

Is the Electronic Entertainment Industry repeating itself and going to run itself into the ground with old ideas running themselves to death, or are people happy with this and everything going to be fine?I really don't think people care that much whether innovation occurs or not. I mean some games just work and don't need to change. Sometimes change/innovation is a bad thing (virtual boy). And honestly I think Madden fans would buy the games if nothing but the players changed from year to year. Fact is the industry is huge now and although it almost ran itself dry once I just don't think it will again mainly due to the larger user base now who just doesn't care if things change.

[Kid Icarus]

The main point is that the industry was huge back then too. Every house had an Atari, and every studio was looking to slap the next big icon onto its games.

Most gamers arn't aware of the history, so they don't see the warning signs. Yes, we should enjoy it... but we need to be a little cautious. People's tastes change at the drop of a hat now, and that makes it very dangerous to developers. It all boils down to business, and if studios think slapping E.T. on a game's going to make it sell, they'll do it, regardless of the game's quality.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Another reason I believe Nintendo to be the most stable. Tastes change at the drop of a hat concerning the casual public, but NIntendo fans are known for their stability and reliability. That makes them stable as a result. They keep going on by leaning on their fans. I've never really understood what it is about them that instills that kind of loyality in each generation, but the fact is that they do.

I believe Nintendo and Microsoft have fanbases. For Nintendo, it comes natural for some reason. For Microsoft, they had to work at it because they're new, but it happened. Sony has a consumer base, and if someone were to become better them Sony, the casual public would switch as long as it had the cooler image as well.

[Peanut]

Saying innovation is not important is a little bit ignorant if you ask me, no offense.

I'm still trying to find out who said innovation isn't important...

And thanks for clearing that up on the touch controller GWG. I haven't been following any videogames news lately, so I didn't know about that. I'm glad to hear it though, looks like Revolution is back on my "To Buy" list.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Frankly, I don't know what Revolution is, but I do want change, but I want it like the DS. I want new things to be slowly introduced while maintaining what we already have, just like DS did. Slowly introducing innovation and getting people used to new ideas is how you advance gaming.

[Mecha Cow]

I'm still trying to find out who said innovation isn't important...
I got the feeling that's what you were getting at, sorry if I put words in your mouth.

[Barkworm]

I think this home console generation had only about 5 truly innovative games. There are are absolutely no developers who aren't guilty of recycling old ideas. There were some fine games anyway and that's pretty much all that matters.

[Kid Icarus]

And I woulden't really call any games innovative this gen. There were plenty that evolved ideas, but there wern't ANY totally new game designs released. Animal Crossing and DDR are about as close as we get, and AC was on the N64, DDR's "step on the pad" idea's from Track and Field on the NES. Eye Toy's just an upgraded Gameboy Camera or web cam. DK Jungle Beat's pry the most original game out there now (till Electroplankton), but it's just a platformer with new way of controling it.

Hell, even Xbox Live, as TMB pointed out, isn't a first. Sega had a workable online system before the PS2 even hit shelves.

[Spitfire]

And I woulden't really call any games innovative this gen. There were plenty that evolved ideas, but there wern't ANY totally new game designs released. Animal Crossing and DDR are about as close as we get, and AC was on the N64, DDR's "step on the pad" idea's from Track and Field on the NES. Eye Toy's just an upgraded Gameboy Camera or web cam. DK Jungle Beat's pry the most original game out there now (till Electroplankton), but it's just a platformer with new way of controling it.

Hell, even Xbox Live, as TMB pointed out, isn't a first. Sega had a workable online system before the PS2 even hit shelves.
Haha there were 3-D GTA games made...which did start free-roam! THough I dont like GTA games...Umm Devil May Cry which did help re-define action. RE 4 which had the widescreen and overall just ruled. Mister Mosquito which was like no other game I have ever played....oh well haha some games slip under the radar no matter how good they are....like ZOE 2

[ThirdMarioBro]

There are are absolutely no developers who aren't guilty of recycling old ideas.

True, true. *points fingers at everyone*

I guess you could say Katamari Demancy was a new idea, all be it simple. Should be fun on DS.

Now Feel the Magic, that was new. Wacked, fun, and new. Crazy little game, but that dosen't count as a console title.

And it's true that a game dosen't have to be innovative to be fun, but you gotta have new ideas from time to time to keep things moving and to keep the old ideas from getting stale IMO.

[Peanut]

Haha there were 3-D GTA games made...which did start free-roam! THough I dont like GTA games...Umm Devil May Cry which did help re-define action. RE 4 which had the widescreen and overall just ruled. Mister Mosquito which was like no other game I have ever played....oh well haha some games slip under the radar no matter how good they are....like ZOE 2

All you're doing is mentioning your favourite games, and there was free roam long before GTA.

[Kid Icarus]

KD is really the only truely new game type out there. Feel the Magic is Wario Ware with a reason behind it, and longer mini games. GTA is Mario 64 with hookers and guns, and more focus on a 'story' ('cause, really, most gamers i know don't pay attentoin to the GTA stories, they just play them to shoot people).

And even Katamari Damacy could be linked to Kirby's Tilt n' Tumble on the GBC, but I'll admit that's a farshot.

I just don't see any more ideas out there to use for totally new games though, sadly. Then again, I don't get paid (yet) to think up new game ideas, so I'm sure some team out there'll come up with something.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Does anyone know who created that wierd Xband modem for the 16-bit systems? It was techinacally the first working online setup.......even if it sucked ass. I think Atari tried too if I'm ot mistaken. Sega was just the first to make it actually work with Saturn's Net-Link. Dreamcast invented Broadband gaming.

[Kid Icarus]

Anyone remember that Sega TV thing from like, 92?

Something like that, where indie developers could post game demos for console owners to play, would be cool. It could even stream data over the internet... and I'd be more then happy to pay for that, so long as the majority of that money made its way to the developers.

I also think Nintendo should make the NES dev kits public, or maybe even the SNES kits. At least some kinda program to let people learn how to make games. I know Digi Pen and Nintendo offer that online course thing, but that's just not practicle for most people. The more people that can make games, the more ideas we'll get floating around.

[Peanut]

Anyone remember that Sega TV thing from like, 92?

Sega Channel. I used to have that. What a blast that was. Too bad it didn't last for very long. :ohwell:

[ThirdMarioBro]

I missed out on that. Wish I could've enjoyed more from Sega back then.

[Tetsu Deinonychus Power-5]

Finally, a chance to say in public how PISSED OFF I am at the current gaming market for producing so many (IMO) boring games!!

Seriously, I get angry when I read EGM and find that ALL they make anymore are stealth games and mafia games. THAT'S IT! THAT'S ALL THAT GETS MADE ANYMORE!!!! It drives me nuts.

It's not that I don't respect the originals, Metal Gear Solid and Grand Theft Auto are, in their own right great series. It's this endless legion of their clones that has completely ruined this whole generation of games. (except the Dreamcast, which (IMHO) was and is still the system with the best games ever. I miss the DC days :cry: )

Let's face it, Game Marketing is doing great, but gaming itself is dying! :cry:

I just get tired of EVERY game that comes out being either a MGS clone or a GTA clone. I liked it SO much better when it was all Street Fighter, and Mario clones, because I found them fun and interesting. I think the direction games REALLY need to go is backward! When I shop for old NES/SNES/Genesis games, I see so many wonderful options, but when I leaf through EGM, I see maybe ONE game I might want to play (2 out of three times it's for another console and I only own GC, cause I'm not rich enough to own all 3)

Anyway, I'm being a tad harsh, there are a handful of great games on the current systems(Devil May Cry, Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Oddworld, Final Fantasy,etc.), but one needs to have all three systems to have a decent amount of them, and I'm not a Rockefeller, those things are ungodly expensive. (I'll save the "why is every interesting game a console-exclusive" rant for another thread)

Anyway, thanks everybody for letting me vent. I've been keeping all that bottled up for a couple years now. And, if you disagree, go ahead. You're entitled too. Enjoy your games.

Now here's the good news. I'm gonna start making my own games. There is an easy PC game development kit called Game Maker, click here (http://www.gamemaker.nl/) for the site. It's free!
It's PC only, but if you have a joypad you can make console-style games. I have a few in development that suit my own old-fashioned tastes. But, you "innovation fans" can try your on hands at it.
That way, if you can't buy a fun game, at least you can make one. You can even use the net to publish it, and give people something fun to play as console games sink into dullness.

Sorry for the giant post everyone. :ohwell: