Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[soccerstud652]

In the fight between our two turtle brothers, Raph and Leo, Raph is the obvious winner. But my understanding later (from Raph's comment to Splinter "I understand why you made him [Leo] leader.") is that Leo let Raph win?

I don't know exactly how to phrase it, but that is the feeling that I got afterward - he was being a good leader by letting Raph win? Or did Raph just whip Leo at the end to set up the capture and make up?

EDIT: Changed title to be less - spoilerie.

[CJStyles]

I think cause he realized he acts impolsivly at times so thats why he's not leader

[Buslady]

Leo in no way LET Raph win, Raph WON that fight.

[johnnyblaze]

I kind of figured that Leo won round 1, Raph won round 2. I mean they first fought when Raph was still only the Nightwatcher to Leo. They fought and Leo used Nightwatcher's anger against him and then hit him with an upper cut which layed him out.

Then because of that he finds out Nightwatcher= Raph and the 2 go at it after they argue. The match was definatly even until they locked up and Raph broke Leo's swords (which caught Leo completly offgaurd judging by the expression on his face) and Raph then took that opportunity to take Leo down.

1 Leo
1 Raph

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

He said that because he felt terrible after failing to get Leo back.

[johnnyblaze]

said what?

[Karai]

Raph's deal was that he was convinced he could lead himself better than Leo could. After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible - But that's what makes him a good leader (as Splinter says later when Raph returns, it takes humility to be a good leader in addition to strength and loyalty). Raph turns tail and runs because he realizes this and is overwhelmed by it. It's like having a big fight with your sibling and finding out that you were wrong after spending so much time yelling at each other. =P He realizes how much he needs Leonardo because he isn't ready to act on his own, and it makes him feel ashamed.

Then, of course, he's able to admit to his mistake once Leo is lost to Winters and comes back to his brothers to help get him back.

At least, this is my take on it.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

"I understand why you made him leader."

I forgot the whole statement.

[vagrant718]

how can yall say raph won that fight when leo embarrassed him as the nightwatcher. knocking somebody down and running away is not considered a "win" to me.

[johnnyblaze]

I'm still sticking to my

Leo-1
Raph-1

Because literally, thats how it went down: Leo beat Raph then Raph beat Leo

[vagrant718]

I'm still sticking to my

Leo-1
Raph-1

Because literally, thats how it went down: Leo beat Raph then Raph beat Leo

i can agree with that

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

Raph let his anger get to him. He didn't realize that his anger nearly cost Leo's life until he was about to take it. Like Splinter said in the first movie, "It can be an unconquerable enemy." I believe Raph won the fight, but with a price. He finally realized that he needs Leo to be there for him. And he also figured out that it's his temper and anger that will keep him from being a proper leader that Leo is. You can tell his attitude totally changed after this and after Leo got kidnapped.

[Time Mistress]

I think Rahzar said it pretty well.

This was, as ThemanthatwouldRaphael said in his review thread the BEST TMNT fight in any of the movies. This was the best scene in the movie, it's the centerpiece in terms both of action and emotion. And I loved ever second of it. It's the Leo vs. Raph fight we've always wanted to see, with neither holding back. And they ARE evenly matched. There was some fear when I read the novelization that it might be more onesided (not that I wouldn't be glad for Raph to finally beat Leo;) but then all the Leo fans would be screaming) but that wasn't the case at all on film. It was definately, round 1 to Leo and round 2 to Raph. These guys were working all their strengths against each other and all their weaknesses were taken advantage of as well. Raph and Leo are two fighters who know each other inside because they are brothers but they also don't know each other in this fight because they have both gotten better in their time spent apart.

Raph's advantage over Leo when he breaks his swords and imediately following isn't one of skill, it's one of pure berseker rage. Raph's shame isn't just that he realizes what Rahzar said, but also that if Raph had continued to press his advantage at that point the outcome would have been that Raph's next move would have killed his own brother in his berserker rage (just like the Meet Casey Jones ep in the new toon where Raph almost kills Mike with the pipe in his rage). It's the thought that Raph could even come so close to commiting such a abominble act against Leo and just barely stopping himself in time that causes him to flee.

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

I think Rahzar said it pretty well.

This was, as ThemanthatwouldRaphael said in his review thread the BEST TMNT fight in any of the movies. This was the best scene in the movie, it's the centerpiece in terms both of action and emotion. And I loved ever second of it. It's the Leo vs. Raph fight we've always wanted to see, with neither holding back. And they ARE evenly matched. There was some fear when I read the novelization that it might be more onesided (not that I wouldn't be glad for Raph to finally beat Leo;) but then all the Leo fans would be screaming) but that wasn't the case at all on film. It was definately, round 1 to Leo and round 2 to Raph. These guys were working all their strengths against each other and all their weaknesses were taken advantage of as well. Raph and Leo are two fighters who know each other inside because they are brothers but they also don't know each other in this fight because they have both gotten better in their time spent apart.

Raph's advantage over Leo when he breaks his swords and imediately following isn't one of skill, it's one of pure berseker rage. Raph's shame isn't just that he realizes what Rahzar said, but also that if Raph had continued to press his advantage at that point the outcome would have been that Raph's next move would have killed his own brother in his berserker rage (just like the Meet Casey Jones ep in the new toon where Raph almost kills Mike with the pipe in his rage). It's the thought that Raph could even come so close to commiting such a abominble act against Leo and just barely stopping himself in time that causes him to flee.

Raph has the most potential to really lose it because of his rage. Honestly, if he had really hurt Leo or even killed him, he would of lived the rest of his life in shame. Raph is closer to the dark side than any of this brothers. I hope he finally seeks solitude in Splinter's help with his problem. And let's hope he never drinks alcohol either. That would only make it worse.

[Katie]

how can yall say raph won that fight when leo embarrassed him as the nightwatcher. knocking somebody down and running away is not considered a "win" to me.

But remember, Raph had a TON of gear on as Nightwatcher. He could still move pretty good, but not like her would have au naturale.

I used to race street bikes. Walking around in leathers is hard work, much less having a fight in them.

[iris]

After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible -
On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues. :roll:

[Tinuvielsdreams]

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues. :roll:

That was all very well said...I think that scene made the movie, it was the whole climatic turn and it was the part that really just got me. They may have concentrated on Leo and Raph for most of the film but they did it well

[johnnyblaze]

But remember, Raph had a TON of gear on as Nightwatcher. He could still move pretty good, but not like her would have au naturale.

I used to race street bikes. Walking around in leathers is hard work, much less having a fight in them.granted he had alot of stuff on but it didn't seem to effect his movement at all

[Quiet_Guy]

Raph has the most potential to really lose it because of his rage. Honestly, if he had really hurt Leo or even killed him, he would of lived the rest of his life in shame. Raph is closer to the dark side than any of this brothers. I hope he finally seeks solitude in Splinter's help with his problem. And let's hope he never drinks alcohol either. That would only make it worse.

If Raph touched alcohol that would be akin to a natural disaster reaping havoc upon the world.

[johnnyblaze]

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues. :roll:

I thought his losing to Raph, then his saying that he needs him when Leo is saved was Leo coming around to respect his brother more. Granted he didn't get the chance to vent after the fight as Raph did but I think Leo telling Raph that he needs him, especially after how earlier in the film he questions why they need him at all, was supposed to show that

[Masked Ninja]

I would have liked to see Leo regain confidence in his own leadership by the end, just as Raph came to his realization. It would have made the story feel a little more complete to me, I guess. But oh well.

I also loved how Splinter made the distinguisment between his role as teacher and father in his talk with Raph. He's not gonna sugarcoat that Leo is his favorite student, but he loves them ALL as sons.

And I, even being a Leo fan, will come out and say that yeah, Raph took him down. I think that a fight like this often hinges on who's angrier. And I think Raph has a more blinding rage than Leo, as well as more physical strength. Had it stayed Leo vs. Nightwatcher, it may have been more even. Why? I think that even though he was ticked off, Leo had a little "hold back" mentality that went into him subconsciously as soon as he found out he was fighting his brother. Raph goes blind and just wants to kill whatever's in front of him. Leo was fighting to merely beat Raph, but Raph was fighting to kill because of that berserker rage. That's just a fundamental difference in their fighting styles. I think they'd match up pretty equally if they were going against non-family opponents, because then Leo would be in it to the death.

My thoughts, anyway. It was nice seeing Leo get taken down for a change. :) And I was glad that the weapons-locked position ended up with him swords breaking because I was a bit worried for a second that the lock would slip and someone would get stabbed. D:

[Brock]

My take on it was that as much skill and ability as Leo has, when it comes down to pure fury or killer instinct, Raph just can not be stopped.

I don't believe either was looking to kill their brother, but Leo's nature made him tone down the fight a few levels before Raph did and left himself vulnerable.

[iris]

You know, I don't think Leo lost on purpose. I understand why people think that, but I just don't see it. That might be a Splinter strategy, but Leo is not there yet.

I thought his losing to Raph, then his saying that he needs him when Leo is saved was Leo coming around to respect his brother more. Granted he didn't get the chance to vent after the fight as Raph did but I think Leo telling Raph that he needs him, especially after how earlier in the film he questions why they need him at all, was supposed to show that

I feel that, at first, Raph's newfound respect for Leo comes at the price of respect for himself. He's a bit mixed up, that Raphael. Luckily, Splinter straightens him out somewhat.

Leo tells Raph he needs him? I don't remember that, but I don't really remember much of the dialogue from the fight scene after Leo says he's better than Raph.

[Masked Ninja]

You know, I don't think Leo lost on purpose. I understand why people think that, but I just don't see it. That might be a Splinter strategy, but Leo is not there yet.

[...]

Leo tells Raph he needs him? I don't remember that, but I don't really remember much of the dialogue from the fight scene after Leo says he's better than Raph.I agree with you on that first point. I think he was really going full-out, fight-wise. But I do think there was something subconscious going there. Like, I dunno... someone punching their brother in the face but pulling the punch without even meaning to... because you don't want to hurt them THAT bad. Raph, I think, has a little less of this instinct.

And the "I need you" line comes before the final fight, right after Raph hands Leo new swords.

[iris]

I agree with you on that first point. I think he was really going full-out, fight-wise. But I do think there was something subconscious going there. Like, I dunno... someone punching their brother in the face but pulling the punch without even meaning to... because you don't want to hurt them THAT bad. Raph, I think, has a little less of this instinct.

And the "I need you" line comes before the final fight, right after Raph hands Leo new swords.
Ah... I see.

Great point about the subconscious restraint. I guess that's the other half of what people were pointing out upthread about Raph being willing to push the savagery further than Leo.

[soccerstud652]

Raph's deal was that he was convinced he could lead himself better than Leo could. After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible - But that's what makes him a good leader (as Splinter says later when Raph returns, it takes humility to be a good leader in addition to strength and loyalty). Raph turns tail and runs because he realizes this and is overwhelmed by it. It's like having a big fight with your sibling and finding out that you were wrong after spending so much time yelling at each other. =P He realizes how much he needs Leonardo because he isn't ready to act on his own, and it makes him feel ashamed.

Then, of course, he's able to admit to his mistake once Leo is lost to Winters and comes back to his brothers to help get him back.

At least, this is my take on it.

Thats what I was really trying to get at in this post...

So basically, it was Ralph's rage that allowed him "win" the second fight.

Yet it was Leo's losing, and "humanity" that make him a good leader (he is more than just a loyal / strong fighter), which is what Splinter helps Raph cope with, after Raph realizes it running back to the sewer.

[BigApple3AM]

Sorry I'm too lazy to read the other posts, I'm really tired but this is how I saw it, and why I think the filmmakers were genius. This was like the #1 topic of all time on turtle boards, who would win Raph vs Leo, and so it was great just getting it in the movie. The genius part is as follows.

Leo was beating the "night watcher" because Leo didn't know it was Raph. It was just another villain. But when he finds out its Raph and can't finish the fight because it's his brother, however Raph being much angrier is able to knock Leo down and even almost finish him. This is why Leo is leader, and Raph is just the strong guy. For a loner it might be a strong quality, but as a team you can't finish off your fellow teammates/brothers.

So in my opinion they're stronger than each other in different ways. Leo may be the better fighter, but Raph has the anger in him to finish what he starts.

[Rooish]

Isn't the title of this thread itself a spoiler?

I liked that fight; it showed that Leo and Raph are pretty evenly matched (important; appeasing fans is good). It's impressive that Raph was dextrous even with his armour, but keep in mind also: he was wearing armour. He didn't have to hold back as much in order to protect himself; he could go right in and beat up Leo. Leo had to focus more on protecting his hide and less on beating Raph.

[johnnyblaze]

Leo tells Raph he needs him? I don't remember that, but I don't really remember much of the dialogue from the fight scene after Leo says he's better than Raph.

he tells him that when they go to rescue him, right after Raph gives him his new swords

edit--someone beat me to it

[iris]

Thanks anyway, johnnyblaze.

Normally, I hate the Leo v. Raph topics, but this scene was just too sweet. I'm gonna see it again tomorrow! :D

[soccerstud652]

Thanks anyway, johnnyblaze.

Normally, I hate the Leo v. Raph topics, but this scene was just too sweet. I'm gonna see it again tomorrow! :D

Just so you know, this topic isn't about Raph vs. Leo. It is about Raph's comments to Splinter following the scene - about Leo as leader.

The scene was so sweet though. I can't wait to see it again. Definately was the best Turtle's battle to date. Followed by their first battle with Shredder in TMNT 1.

[Warhorse]

PHWEW!!! Just got done watching this movie not too long ago. I left a happy camper, and that this fight is something that both Leo and Raph fans, I believe, can digest easily enough.

I think Leo lost the second fight because he was doing the one thing that often get's in the way of Raph's victories. Over confidence. The second Leo said he was better than Raph, I just think made him feel cocky, and he lost that edge that tends to be his signature.

I agree with the lot of you, that Raph also has some insane arsenal when he blows the top and goes into that beserker rage.

I also liked it how Splinter had pointed out to Raph, that while he is not leader material, he is, however, his other three brothers biggest protector. The second Raph heard Leo's cry for help, Raph turned about face to try and help his brother.

Also, after they all made a truce, and were going after Max Winters (I cant recall the exact moment) but while Leo and Don were figuring out plans, Mikey was goofing off, Raph was in front, almost seeming to be the first to check out the waters before his brothers. Dont know if anyone else noticed this or not.

Also, side note. Raph made have had that armor to protect himself from Leo's blows and blades, but from the sound of Raph huffing and puffing, that armor took it's toll on his stamina and agility.

[Leonardo Mystic]

This is by far my favorite scene of the movie, and also what followed after the fight. Just everything couldn't have been more perfect. It was so intense, and it felt so real to me.

Each of them have their own different views of the world, and it can be hard for them to listen/communicate with each other because they are stubborn in their own ways. It reminds me of how some things have happened in my life like that.

[Nightwatcher]

Raph won, but I don't think it was necessarily all about his rage.

Leo saying "Because I'm better than you" and the fact that he had knocked him down while they were fist fighting gives me the impression that Leo didn't think Raph could hold his own against him. Leo seemed full of himself because he had been training for so long that he assumed he Raph wouldn't be able to touch him in a 1v1 fight. Naturally when you overlook your opponent you can easily be taken down.

I mean Leo's face said it all when his swords were broken. :o It was just a complete shock that it could have possibly happened.

That being said the whole scene was just amazing to me. I was pumped in the theater because Raph has always been my fav and he got to "win" but as I drove home I contemplated the fight more and realized a lot of circumstances went into the fight that makes me think that if they were just sparring a week after the film ends Leo would probably win since he is the better technical fighter.

**I am so glad I found this board. I would never have been able to talk about this with anyone else.**

[Revan]

It would have made the story feel a little more complete to me, I guess. But oh well.

Remember what Karai said about unfinished business. This movie is in no way complete. There is much to be done about the foot for the next movie.


I was quite surprised with Raph's reaction to Leo's "I'm better than you" remark. I would have expected Raph to snap back or attack blindly. Instead he simply laughs it off. I absolutely loved how Raph finally embraces Leo and Raph's role in the family. I also loved how Splinter kept referring to the turtles and himself as a "family." Best movie I've seen in a long long while.

[soccerstud652]

Remember what Karai said about unfinished business. This movie is in no way complete. There is much to be done about the foot for the next movie.


I was quite surprised with Raph's reaction to Leo's "I'm better than you" remark. I would have expected Raph to snap back or attack blindly. Instead he simply laughs it off. I absolutely loved how Raph finally embraces Leo and Raph's role in the family. I also loved how Splinter kept referring to the turtles and himself as a "family." Best movie I've seen in a long long while.

Ya, I was surprised by Raph's reaction too.

[Avatar Yuffie]

It seems that the two brothers reached an epiphany fighting each other.

Raph realized why Leo is leader material (which would explain why he was so upset despite getting the win), and Leo realized why he needs Raph in the team.

It's a brother thing, I guess.

[johnnyblaze]

^exactly. they learned to respect each other, especially if they want respect back

[Raphamel]

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So very true! This is always how I've wanted to word it but failed doing so :)

[MoreCowbell5263]

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.

[Warhorse]

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.


While this would be good reasoning. In this film, I think Leo was the eldest. But just because you are the oldest sibling, doesn't make you the primary protector of a family. And I think this family is no different. Raph is very overprotective of the ones he loves.

[jenna]

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.

Raph is the second youngest.

I think in high school Raph would be the quiet intimidating looking guy who watches everything like he might suddenly fly off the handle. The one everyone is scared of, but quietly respects.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I think it was established that Leo is oldest, then Don, then Raph, then Mikey.

[Warhorse]

Raph is the second younger!

The movie only mentions Leo being the eldest and Mikey being the youngest. It never mentions who is older than who between Donny and Raph. So this particular tidbit is still up in the air.

[Revan]

How would they know who is older?

[Warhorse]

How would they know who is older?


That's a damn good question! I honestly don't think they could tell who was older than who! Not in the hard core scientific truth anyways.

[Revan]

From the reconiscence I just did through some threads. Some logical explanations for Leo's apparent big brother status stems from the fact that he acts like an older brother in that he shows leadership. He may or may not be older, but his brothers look to him so that makes him older.

If their mother layed all four eggs at the same time, would the one that hatched first be the oldest or would the egg that came out of the mother be the oldest. Either way, the oldest can't be that much older.

And there would be no way for the turtles or splinter to know which one hatched first anyway.

[Seiza]

^Yeah, I don't think the "elder"/"younger" labels the guys use are referring to biological ages, but the way their personalities fit into certain roles. I'd see it more as a coincidence if they hatched in the same sequence (Leo -> Mikey).

I think in high school Raph would be the quiet intimidating looking guy who watches everything like he might suddenly fly off the handle. The one everyone is scared of, but quietly respects.
I keep getting an image of Raph brooding in a corner of my school, glaring from the shadows, chewing bubble gum menacingly. :lol:

I don't think Mikey's very jock-like, though. They might share the athleticism, but his personality is more like the class clown. When I imagine "jock", I think of this obnoxious-swagger+girl-on-arm, and none of the turtles strike me that way.

[SLASH!!!]

How would they know who is older?

I think they would dictate age by who started to walk and talk first. Leo grew quicker and was deemed the older brother. Mike was last and became the youngest.

[Avatar Yuffie]

it never mentions who is older than who between Donny and Raph

Well, both Leo and Splinter assumed Don to take charge of the family in the movie (poor guy), so it's logical to assume he's older than Raph.

[The Shelf]

I think they would dictate age by who started to walk and talk first. Leo grew quicker and was deemed the older brother. Mike was last and became the youngest.

I think this is the best way to judge their age since their mutation is what made them who they are.

[Keno]

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does

actually, i still sorta see him as that. at least in an elementary school type way, because sometimes bullies ARE seen as "protectors", that is, protectors of the weak, and that could even include themselves, that they portrary this tough attitude as a way to constantly defend themselves because they often feel misunderstood.

i took a sociology course in my first year at university, and i loved the subject, especially when examining people's "roles", in terms of personality and fitting in within groups. it covered alot of the stuff everyone discusses here in terms of their relationships as brothers and in a family...if only i was actually good at science, i would have studied the subject more, because it was incredibly fascinating to study personality types and stuff like that.

[Rooish]

Heh, I know this topic has been done before, but it kind of annoys me how lately, people who write TMNT stuff can't get the alleged official age order right. I'm referring to Don and Raph here. In 2k3, I think Don acts younger than Raph ... he's got a wide-eyed innocence about him, whereas Raph is like a second-in-command, protective older brother type. He was like that in the new movie, too. Shouldn't Don, the "second-oldest" (or, like, Splinter) have been leading the team when they went to rescue Leo?

I didn't even think that Mikey was officially established as the youngest in the new movie. Leo calls Mikey "little brother," but the others don't. But then, he definitely looks and acts youngest.

[aabxx]

1. It is a serious sparring duel, not a fight to death. None of them intends to kill the other. The goal is to make the other lose his weapons.

2. I will not say Raph is neccesarily dumb tactically but on this occasion he is. He might be good with his chains but does he seriously expect to take out Leo with them? He's asking to be humiliated... and Leo is only happy to oblige.

3. On to the hand-to-hand combat Leo looks much better. Raph is at a disadvantage because of his suit but it pans out exactly like you would imagine it to have panned out on many occasions before... Raph charging and relying on his brute force, and Leo outsmarting him move by move. Leo has time enough to actually talk and make fun of him... so while he's not hindered by a suit, he's still limiting himself by affording himself the time to talk in the middle of the fight. No wonder Raph is so angry with the smug ninja nerd! ;)

Raph would btw have an advantage in hand to hand combat because his fists are more protected (usually this is a big advantage actually) but somehow, in an awesome display of force and technique, Leo is able to dragon punch Raph up in the air by hitting him directly on his metal visir, without breaking all the bones in his fist. That is a testament to how strong Leo actually is... he does not have the bulk of Raphael, but he demonstrates in several ways that muscle strength is not the most important thing in hand-to-hand combat (just ask Splinter!).

4. When they're fighting with the weapons, Leo smugly demonstrates his superiority in combat at one occasion (the shoulder scene). This only makes Raphael more angry. Leo has made a serious mistake. He's really pushed Raphael, and Raph is way more commited to winning now. Remember that Leo lives by the warrior code. His swords are extremely important to him. Raph knows this. When they interlock, Leo looks down at the weapons and is clearly surprised how much pressure Raph is putting on his swords. This shouldn't really be surprising Leo, as he must perfectly well know that Raphael is able to snap his swords, but he doesn't expect Raphael to be so ticked off to as to actually wanting to break his precious swords.

5. Raph snaps the swords. He breaks an unwritten rule. Having overpowered Leo he suddenly realizes he was taking this way more seriously than Leo. I think part of this aggression came from the fact that Leo was treating him like an inferior warrior (which Raphael is, actually, which Leo clearly demonstrated even though he lost in the end). But is was not a fight Leo wanted to win at any cost. We have to remember that it was Raphael who really attacked his brother, not the other way around... which is a serious flaw in Raphael's character, no matter how smug Leo actually is. Raphael came to these realizations when he had defeated Leo:
1. Leo was the better warrior at every step, both physically and mentally and Raph realized this... he knew he had won simply because he went too far and understood finally why Splinter preferred him to be the leader.
2. He had insisted on attacking his own brother. He suddenly becomes very shameful. Leo has his own faults, being too smug for one, but deep inside Raph realized that what he did was in fact much worse than Leo's smugness.
3. He runs away, scared of what he had done and of his freaky inferiority complex...

Onto Leo's perspective:
He becomes ashamed of himself. And his eyes show vulnerability. His pride as a fighter is not hurt, because I don't think there is any doubt in Leo's mind that he's a better fighter than Raphael (which Leo is, as has been demonstrated many times in the canon) but his pride as the leader and the "big brother", is shattered. He actually thought he could play around with Raphael in combat and after defeating him, they could go home and have a pizza. He realizes his serious flaw... Leo does indeed think the world revolves around him, as he beforehand couldn't even fathom the simple concept that Raphael would never follow Leo simply because of a defeat. And he failed to notice how ticked off Raph really was.

He's perplexed because the same things he was trying to teach Raphael, he hasn't in fact learned himself! He has let his ego become too big and had been unable to see simple things for what they were because of this.

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there ;) All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

[triplexxx]

I see where you come from, I should just clarify that there really is not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best fighter, and though Raphael has got problems with his ego, as Leonardo does too, he still lives by the warrior code too, THEY ALL DO.

As I've said before, every turtle has a certain advantage over their brothers (and canon says it), Raphael=strength // Leonardo=skill/field-strategy // Michaelangelo=speed // Donatello=intellegence/scientific-strategy. Any of these adavantages can prove to be good for victory in battle on any given day. And "teacher's pet" is only a false interpretation of who Raphael thinks Leonardo is. If Splinter had a favorite, son or student, it'd be unethical of him and he'd wouldn't be as good a father as he is, and Splinter's got his faults too. I love every turtle equally and don't have a favorite and I know how to do the math, so I'm not biased....ever.

[Revan]

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there ;) All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

...On any given Sunday, dude.

[Warhorse]

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there ;) All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

And why must you feel the need to light the fires that have already died. Are you looking for another fight on the boards?

Triplexxx is right. There is no better fighter. They all bring something to the table. Like he said, Leo is best skilled and strategist, Mikey is most athletic and fastest, Donny is the most technically savvy, and Raph is the most strongest and toughest.

But if you want to get technical, this isn't the first time that we saw Raph beat Leo. If I recall correctly, in the comics, which are more canon than this movie, Leo and Raph got in a fight and Raph had had it with Leo and picked up the leader over his head and flung him through a wall. And that was the end of that fight. When Raph is really pissed off, like he was in the comic and in the movie, I don't think there is much Leo can pull out to stop him.

But that's my two cents. There really is no need to drag this up again abyxx, and then to call people silly for their views on how things go down. Can't you find a better way to get your point across without being condescending? Good grief, I'm in one of my Raph moods today!

[Leonardo Mystic]

Onto Leo's perspective:
He becomes ashamed of himself. And his eyes show vulnerability. His pride as a fighter is not hurt, because I don't think there is any doubt in Leo's mind that he's a better fighter than Raphael (which Leo is, as has been demonstrated many times in the canon) but his pride as the leader and the "big brother", is shattered. He actually thought he could play around with Raphael in combat and after defeating him, they could go home and have a pizza. He realizes his serious flaw... Leo does indeed think the world revolves around him, as he beforehand couldn't even fathom the simple concept that Raphael would never follow Leo simply because of a defeat. And he failed to notice how ticked off Raph really was.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Leo doesn't think the world revolves around him at all. In fact, if you listen to him, he really doesn't think that highly of himself. There are a lot of times where he thinks he's been a failure, or isn't good enough. You could see when Splinter gave him that medallion after he returned home that he didn't think he even deserved it. He just stood there staring at it like he didn't know what to do with it. And if you notice, sometimes when he knows he's done a good job, getting praise makes him a little embarrassed, as if he's uncomfortable of being called attention to.

Humility is being humble and modest of yourself. He doesn't behave arrogantly, self-righteously, or egotistically as one would think the world revolving around them does. That would imply that he was selfish, and Leo is not by any means selfish. As Splinter said to Raphael though while he had the merits of strength, passion, and loyalty of a great leader, he did not have the humility and compassion to balance it out as Leonardo does.

Going on to Leo's perspective after the fight, but first I'm going to touch up on some points before it, with Raph still as Nightwatcher. Here we have Leo already on edge with Raph blowing off and leaving, and added pressure from Splinter, so he's about ready to snap. He runs into the Nightwatcher. Well, since he can't find Raph at the moment, why not confront the reckless vigilante first. Two birds with one stone is his logic.

However, Leo's not looking for a fight, he just wants to talk to Nightwatcher. He doesn't ever fight unless it's a last resort. It's Nightwatcher that ensues a fight, because it's really Raph, but Leo doesn't know that yet. Though Leo does not attack. He takes on the defensive, blocking instead, because he still doesn't want to fight. It's not until Nightwatcher discards the chain, and becomes a hand to hand combat.

By this point, Leo is thoroughly exasperated with him because he's being unreasonable, he feels like he's been wasting precious time, and so with no other choice given, he's quite ready to take on Nightwatcher. Still, he mostly ducks and dodges, relying on the strategy he loves to use and is best at. He then turns his opponent at a disadvantage, and uses Nightwatcher's anger against him. This is where he gets in a good, clean, clear uppercut because his guard has been significantly lowered.

So now is the revelation; that Leo learns Nightwatcher is Raph. It becomes a whole 'nother ball game at this point. Leo can't believe his own brother would be doing something like this. Raph starts on his tirade with Leo. Leo tries to get his brother to see that he's wrong, but nothing is getting through to him in the least. That's when he says something he would never otherwise; "I'm better than you."

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.

Leo doesn't play around at all with Raph. In fact, he's purposely holding back a little because he doesn't want to hurt his brother. He is indeed aware of how enraged Raph is. The sword at the neck was a scare tactic. As they lock weapons, Leo spares a glance down at his swords caught in the sais. He feels the amount of pressure Raph is bearing on them, and the metal starting to bend. He gazes back at Raph with a "You wouldn't, would you?" look.

Suddenly, the swords snap, and Leo staggers back a little from the force and surprise. That allows Raph to overcome him, and slam him to the ground with a sai inches from his face. In the moment after, Leo just stares up at him with this expression of heartbreak and disbelief which clearly reads "I can't believe my own brother tried to kill me. Does he truly hate me that much?"

So the purpose of this rather long-winded point was to show that no, Leo does not think the world revolves around him.


He's perplexed because the same things he was trying to teach Raphael, he hasn't in fact learned himself! He has let his ego become too big and had been unable to see simple things for what they were because of this.

See above. Leo does not have an over-inflated ego. What he was teaching Raph, he did learn. He had learned that in Central America when he was doing exactly what Raph was as the Nightwatcher that he was as the ghost of the jungle. It's why Leo was hellbent before on stopping the Nightwatcher. He wasn't proud of that, and it was just his way of helping to turn around someone else on the same path. Leo isn't the one to often lose sight of the simple things anyway.

[twopinacoladas]

I think Raph won, Leo won earlier when he knocked Raphs helment off, and Raph gave him a cheap shot then out muscled him and broke his katanas... I didnt really like how smug Leo was but it pissed me off so I would want Raph to do that lol. It was great either way, though generally I would think that Leo would win however it reminded me of the begining of City At War when Leo and Raph had that little fight pretty much the same thing...

[Shark_Blade]

Do you think tha Leo just gave up the fight, like not putting much of a fight with Raph?

[triplexxx]

Do you think tha Leo just gave up the fight, like not putting much of a fight with Raph?
The fact is they both got hot-headed in that scene, but had no intentions of killing each other, and they both had something to learn from it. So no, no one gave up the fight.

[Risawn]

This may be slightly off topic, but still on topic. I was reading this thread and was reminded of how there always appears to be some kind of conflict between Raph and Leo in the 2k3 series and the movies and how Raph wants to lead whereas Mikey and Don are content with Leo being the big cheese.

Then my mind went to the '87 cartoon 'Take me to Your Leader' where Leo suddenly loses his motivation to lead and leaves the other turtles to decide who gets to lead in his absence. Of course, that Raphael has no desire to actually lead and is just as content with goofing off with Michealangelo.

So I watched that episode again and got a good laugh, mostly focusing on Raphael's wise cracking, fourth wall breaking and decidedly lack of brooding.

Hehe. . . I've always considered the '87 Raphael a whole different character from the other versions of him.

Back on topic, I think I need to go back and watch the movie again, the dynamics between Raph and Leo really does make this movie really succeed (the Winters storyline is kind of weak) and I did a search and there is still a theater playing it in town! I've only seen it the once on opening weekend, I think I need to go back and check it out again. Specifically, I need to watch this fight a little closer. Definitely my favorite part of the movie.

[jenna]

Then my mind went to the '87 cartoon 'Take me to Your Leader' where Leo suddenly loses his motivation to lead and leaves the other turtles to decide who gets to lead in his absence. Of course, that Raphael has no desire to actually lead and is just as content with goofing off with Michealangelo.

So I watched that episode again and got a good laugh, mostly focusing on Raphael's wise cracking, fourth wall breaking and decidedly lack of brooding.

Hehe. . . I've always considered the '87 Raphael a whole different character from the other versions of him.



That is my favourite 87 toon episode ever!

Whilst OT Raph is very different from the Raph we all know, the way I see OT Raphael is like the core of the Raphael we have seen in the comics / 2k3 / films etc - who he would be if he wasn't so messed up.

And I reckon that Raphael's terror of the role of being leader in this episode reflects his real feelings about leadership - that he knows deep down he has none of the qualities that make Leo so appropriate. I think his competing for the role of leadership is just a distortion of him competing with Leo for Splinter's love. Raphael made it clear in the new film that he thought that by choosing Leo as leader, Splinter was declaring him the most loved, the favourite. Raph just translated it wrong. He interpreted reward from the sensei as love from the father. That's why Raph wanted to be leader in my opinion. That, and he hates taking orders - especially from Leo (which he also does in 1987 toon).

Also notable about this episode is that of all the brothers, Raphael fails most miserably at being the leader. He falls at the first hurdle.

[MoreCowbell5263]

I've always wondered if Raph really wanted to be leader this whole time. Because it seems to me that he just doesn't like taking orders, which is why he went off fighting crime on his own in the new movie. I think Raph just wants more freedom but just tries to give people the idea that he can lead just as well as Leo can, but deep down, I think he's afraid of leading. But I'm not sure, it may just be me.

[Revan]

I think his competing for the role of leadership is just a distortion of him competing with Leo for Splinter's love. Raphael made it clear in the new film that he thought that by choosing Leo as leader, Splinter was declaring him the most loved, the favourite. Raph just translated it wrong. He interpreted reward from the sensei as love from the father. That's why Raph wanted to be leader in my opinion. That, and he hates taking orders - especially from Leo (which he also does in 1987 toon).

I really like how TMNT addressed the Raph/Leo conflict. That scene with Raph and Splinter is so powerful.

In the OT, Splinter rarely refers to the boys as sons. It's usually "turtles" or "students." Might be why OT raph doen't mind taking orders from Leo. Ha, if Splinter doesn't love them anyway, why does it matter?

[jenna]

Saw the film for the 7th time at the weekend and I have to say I came back with a new perspective with regards to Raph & Leo and their little spat.

Viewings 1-6
Found Raphael's portrayal so poignant that I had a huge amount of sympathy for him. There was a great sense of sadness about him which has never been present in other incarnations before. I'm not saying that I thought he was right and Leo was wrong: I never voted in the "Who should have won" poll because I don't think it's a case of black / white, either / or, right / wrong... Neither should have won, but I really felt Raph's anguish.

Viewing 7
Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo. Imagine it! Your little brother, whom you love, arguably that you are closest to despite your differences, fighting you so hard that he breaks your precious swords, glaring at you with pure, mad venom, then getting you into that position, poised to kill you, when you don't really know what you've done that's so wrong. True, Leo and Raph fighting is nothing new, but this time it's different. This time Raph is driven by bitterness that is so deep that Leo is only now seeing the depth to Raph's resentment of him. Imagine the realisation that your little brother who is simultaneously so tough and so vulnerable has hated you this much for so long and you had no idea. You thought it was about something as petty as who gets to call the shots.

No wonder the look of Leo's face as he is lying there and later watching Raphael run away is one of disbelief and pure devastation....

[Raphamel]

Saw the film for the 7th time at the weekend and I have to say I came back with a new perspective with regards to Raph & Leo and their little spat.

Viewings 1-6
Found Raphael's portrayal so poignant that I had a huge amount of sympathy for him. There was a great sense of sadness about him which has never been present in other incarnations before. I'm not saying that I thought he was right and Leo was wrong: I never voted in the "Who should have won" poll because I don't think it's a case of black / white, either / or, right / wrong... Neither should have won, but I really felt Raph's anguish.

Viewing 7
Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo. Imagine it! Your little brother, whom you love, arguably that you are closest to despite your differences, fighting you so hard that he breaks your precious swords, glaring at you with pure, mad venom, then getting you into that position, poised to kill you, when you don't really know what you've done that's so wrong. True, Leo and Raph fighting is nothing new, but this time it's different. This time Raph is driven by bitterness that is so deep that Leo is only now seeing the depth to Raph's resentment of him. Imagine the realisation that your little brother who is simultaneously so tough and so vulnerable has hated you this much for so long and you had no idea. You thought it was about something as petty as who gets to call the shots.

No wonder the look of Leo's face as he is lying there and later watching Raphael run away is one of disbelief and pure devastation....


WELL said! And that's it, that's what's so sad about it. Leo had no idea how deep the hurt ran and thus doesn't understand how Raph can possibly be so spiteful. What really pains me, though, is that he didn't get to see Raph's chasing him after he was captured or his confession to Splinter... in fact I can't remember a time where Leo really gets to "experience" Raph's true feelings for him. Whenever Raph shows his vulnerable side, Leo is hurt or unconscious (like in the new toon) or he's already captured and gone (like in TMNT).

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot. So no, he didn't apologize to Raph. I can understand that now. Raph's views can be so warped because he's so hellbent on thinking in opposites--that Leo doesn't care about him or that Splinter doesn't regard him as highly as Leo or the others. But it's also because Leo doesn't see the vulnerable side of Raph very often that Leo hadn't yet *accepted* the fact that down deep Raph's love for him can (and does) outweigh any and all bitterness or resentment. Their fight proves this to them both. I think Splinter has always had an idea of the scope of Raph's true feelings and isn't as hard on Raph as he could be whereas Leo, like you said, thought their feud in this film was just something petty and superficial and therefore is harder on Raph than he should be. It's obvious Leo understands Raph better by the end of the film, and that makes me happy.

While I've always sided with them both, I guess I was more sympathetic to Raph in the end just because not many other people seemed to give Raph's anger/hurt real understanding or consideration (and because he obviously *does* have a unique bond with Leo that's too complicated for words) but Leo definitely has his moments, ya gotta love him. Leo just rocks and always has. Period. I watched "Tales of Leo" again today and found myself with tears in my eyes like an idiot during Raph's breakdown when Leo was hurt. Why do you continually do this to yourself (and me), Raph? STOP BEING A STUBBORN DOLT! ;)

...and you've seen TMNT 7 times!?!?!?! Wheeee! Lucky girl!

[PrivateRadio]

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

The reason for that is he doesn't believe it so much as that he's saying it to get Raph worked up. That's WHY he says it, and why it comes out the way it does. Leo is the stronger fighter (as always, because of Raph's lack of control more than actual skill, a great example of this is in part 3 of Return to New York which I just re-read last night actually), and even lays a sword on Raph's shoulder during the fight. The entire encounter serves to show WHY Leo is the leader, in a film that otherwise never really does.

He teaches Raph his lesson, and Raph knows it when he talks to Splinter.

I'd bet some of the stuff that was cut explains what's going on in that scene even more explicitly.

[Seiza]

Felt absolutely gutted for Leonardo.
Seventh time's the charm, eh? :lol:

Also notable about this episode is that of all the brothers, Raphael fails most miserably at being the leader. He falls at the first hurdle.
Funnily enough, Raph in 2k3 toon seemed the opposite--when Leo wasn't around, he seemed to subconsciously step up. I'm thinking of the ep where Saki is trying to enlist Leo, and Raph stops his brothers from intervening. And just... generally across episodes, I guess, they come across as near-equals.

But I think that movie!Raph got a lot of his frustrations mixed up--he wants to move on his own, yet wants to lead, yet doesn't like taking orders... You can't have both: if you're the leader, you MUST answer to Splinter; if you're a lone ranger, you don't have anyone to lead.

For Raph, I felt it all boiled down to Splinter's love: he wanted to earn it, saw two ways of doing it, but neither worked out for him--he wasn't the leader (and in his mind, the favourite) and it appalled him to have to follow the leadership of someone he resents (nevermind that Leo's orders are extensions of Splinter's orders...). So he's got all his hurt in him that he doesn't know how to fix, and takes it out on the one who seemed to balance it out: Leo.

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot.
I get that vibe off him too, that he feels his attempts at... er, friendliness?... is always being shrugged off by Raph (heh, remember the awkwardness when Leo first returns? And the snippets from the novel that I believe Rooish posted elsewhere), and it shaves off a little bit more of his patience day by day.

Their visions are a limited: Raph feels Leo's the favourite son/student, while Leo likely feels Raph gets away with too much.

I felt the movie also sorta acknowledged the resentment briefly with his "I'm the only one that has to be responsible?!" line-- it's like eldest!speak for "Why won't you pull your weight? Why won't you help me? Can't you see I'm doing this for everyone, including you?" (Oh, wait, Leo does say that last bit out loud... :3)

It's the inability of both turtles to walk in the other's shoes. So Leo can't see things from Raph's view, maybe even takes everything he says at face value-- up to and including "We got along just fine without you!"

What really pains me, though, is that he didn't get to see Raph's chasing him after he was captured or his confession to Splinter... in fact I can't remember a time where Leo really gets to "experience" Raph's true feelings for him. Whenever Raph shows his vulnerable side, Leo is hurt or unconscious (like in the new toon) or he's already captured and gone (like in TMNT).
That's so true. :( Well, that's just Raph's style with everyone, I think... Although Mikey did get to savour some Raph!concern when he faked his unconsciousness in a 2k3 toon episode. :P

But as for Leo, yeah, I don't recall him knowing just how much Raph loses it when he gets hurt. It's definitely not something Raph would talk about later, it's not something I can see him talking about with Don and Mike; and if Splinter's actions are any indication, he doesn't get involved in Leo and Raph's dynamics. So it's not surprising Leo can honestly believe his own brother hates him. (Which is a shame since I think it would teach him not to take Raph's words literally when the latter is mouthing off in anger.)

All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter).
(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

And I still think that Leo's problem wasn't pride, at least to the extent that "the world revolves around him." Other than his "I'm better than you" line, all I've seen from him through the movie is self-doubt, and more events that feed fire to that self-doubt. I felt his "issue" in the movie leaned more towards teamwork: I'm still wondering how did he got the idea that his brothers could function without him?

[Risawn]

Ah yes, why do they have to cut these scenes?

I got a lucky second showing of Ninja Turtles today, I was hoping to catch it one last time in the theaters. The first time I was just watching the movie and I think being in a theater full of screaming kids and noticing the total disregard for Physics and Astronomy really bugged me when I initially viewed it. This time I focused on other things, accepted the plotline involving Stars aligning and focused on the character development. I must say, I enjoyed it much more the second time around.

I also paid more attention to this fight and really got into it. I always loved all the turtles, but I've got a newfound respect for Leo more then I had before.

I'm not going to go into an analysis on the deeper meaning of it, but I got to say, I'm really impressed with the animation and character design, which I also paid closer attention to this time around.

Did I totally jump around there or am I just surfing the forums late again?

[PrivateRadio]

(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)



Yeah, the comics generally implied that Leo was the strongest fighter.

I haven't read the majority of them in a long time (I only actually own a few issues) but a really interesting thing that I believe I actually remember and am not just making up, is that Michelangelo is said to have the most potential of the four if he were more focused/disciplined.

Raph is generally the second strongest fighter but the anger control thing always comes up.

[triplexxx]

(Hopefully I'm not opening a can of rabid, razor-teethed, poison-spewing worms here...) I was wondering, since I've seen this claim elsewhere: what canon indications/examples are you referring to? I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)
Again, I'm saying that this is all presumptious. What he learned in TMNT 4 when sent for further training was just how dependent he was on his brothers, his training wasn't effective without them, which goes for the others as well. And in 2k3, every turtle got their skills built up and shown off, especially the Lost Season, they were ALL chosen by the Tribunal, and they accomplished the same thing the Tribunal did.
And I pointed out, every turtle has a certain advantage over their brothers (and canon says it), Raphael=strength // Leonardo=skill/field-strategy // Michaelangelo=speed // Donatello=intellegence/scientific-strategy. Any of these adavantages can prove to be good for victory in battle on any given day.

[aabxx]

I know the 2k3 toon built Leo's skills up quite a lot, and one could assume that since Leo was sent for further training elsewhere in TMNT 4, he's ahead of his brothers in that canon too. But are there other indications? (I don't follow the comics and barely remember the OT.)

*SPOILERS*

Their were some indications in the OT that Leo was the best fighter...
- He's litterally the leader. Seeing as he's not a table top general but leading the fights, there's a good probability he's the best fighter.
- In follow the leader the team looks lost without Leo. And just when they're in some serious trouble with a robot, Leo comes in and kicks the robot's sorry ass.
- Raphael is sometimes portrayed as a bit cowardly. Leo is almost always the opposite.
- The same goes for Mikey. There is especially one episode where he is left to his own devices and becomes very uncertain of what "little him" can do alone. Leo's the opposite - he regains his selfconfidense when his brothers are in trouble in follow the leader. I might be wrong here as I'm taking this from memory, but in the red sky seasons, I remember Mikey getting stick from the rest of the group because he's become a liabilty to them because of a serious lack of discipline or something. He'd rather have a pizza than train or fight I suppose... ;) Besides, he had the worst weapon to begin with (nunchakus), but to make it worse, he got stuck with the grappling hook later on :D
- Donatello... mmm... well... he's a geek... I would assume he's more busy inventing things than training. In fact, the OT did on several occasions show that it was Leo that took training most serious. As the rest here, it's only an indication, but it's not too farfetched to assume that Leo being the only turtle in OT who actually cares a lot for the "warrior code" and trains the most,
probably is the best fighter.

In the comics, as someone mentioned, quite early Raph throws Leo into a wall or something one time when Leo tries to stop an angry Raph from leaving. Does not exactly prove much though, does it... in combat situations I've always had this feeling that Leo is the best fighter (like for instance when he finished off "Shredder") but admittedly I've not read enough of the comics and might be biased because of Leo's portrayal in the other mediums. But at least, he's shown off as the leader type and the most disciplined. Certainly, making good decisions is also part of combat and Raph is sometimes shown as doing some really stupid things because of his anger or berserker rage or what have you ;) Raph also seems to have some serious issues with the spiritual side of ninjitsu... which supposdely would put him at an disadvantage in certain combat situations (at least if we listen to Splinter I suppose :D). Certainly, Leo seems to be the best ninja but being ninja is a lot more than just fighting so I'm keeping that out of it.

Anyway, Leo and Raph are portrayed as the two best fighters IMO. I would say Leo has the upper hand but someone might disagree. As mentioned, I haven't read enough of the comics anyway.

[jenna]

Now... I'll throw something out there, tell me if I'm wrong: I think, because Leo does let his affection for Raph rise to the surface more often (and Raph isn't one to return affection in that same way) Leo kind of resents being the one to always "give in" and whatnot. So no, he didn't apologize to Raph. I can understand that now. Raph's views can be so warped because he's so hellbent on thinking in opposites--that Leo doesn't care about him or that Splinter doesn't regard him as highly as Leo or the others. But it's also because Leo doesn't see the vulnerable side of Raph very often that Leo hadn't yet *accepted* the fact that down deep Raph's love for him can (and does) outweigh any and all bitterness or resentment. Their fight proves this to them both. I think Splinter has always had an idea of the scope of Raph's true feelings and isn't as hard on Raph as he could be whereas Leo, like you said, thought their feud in this film was just something petty and superficial and therefore is harder on Raph than he should be. It's obvious Leo understands Raph better by the end of the film, and that makes me happy.



Yeah, I definitely agree. The novelisation actually makes quite a big thing of Leo's lack of apology. Raph apologises to Leo after rescuing him from the monster cage, and Leo says: "I know" whereas he could easily have said "I'm sorry, too" or something.

I did like how the film did it though. The lack of "I'm sorry"s was less cheesey and there was a mutual understanding between them which was unspoken - in that very heart-rending moment where they just smiled at each other.

I think Leo, in seeing how desperate Raphael had become during the fight and in running away afterwards, recognised the true anguish and understood for the first time. He'll be more tolerant of Raphael in the future so in a way it's a victory for both of them: Raphael learned to see his anger for what it really is, and so did Leonardo.

...and you've seen TMNT 7 times!?!?!?! Wheeee! Lucky girl!

I know!! I'm so proud. My hubby laughed at me and called me a loser. I told him that he was the loser because he can't see the beauty of TMNT and he's missing out. I mean, come on! If you can't cheer yourself up with simple pleasures like a good movie and a hot chocolate, then what will become of you??? :D

[triplexxx]

it's not too farfetched to assume that Leo being the only turtle in OT who actually cares a lot for the "warrior code"
Well, that part is. They all care about the "warrior code" and doing the right thing. Why else would they always be risking their lives for each other and for other innocents?
Splinter raised them all to live honorably, and that's what they do.
No offense to anyone, but anyone who says ALL the turtles aren't actual "warriors" or don't all follow the "warrior code", that's a load of bull****.

And about Leonardo training the most: maybe so, but it's never been clarified exactly how much more he trains. Say the others train 7 hours a day, he might do maybe 7.5-8 hours, which is only an hour more max.

And about him finishing off Shredder, for one thing, in 2k3, the only reason he was able to decapitate Shredder was because of the sword of Tengu, and even then, no turtle ended up getting the glory of actually "killing" him. And remember how the turtles put in some practice with each others' weapons in What A Croc!, you never know, if one of the other turtles had been carrying the Tengu sword, they could've decapitated him had they been given the opportunity.

[Revan]

and what exactly is the warrior code

[Avatar Yuffie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido

Technically, real ninjas don't practice this, that's why they're the samurai's enemies in the first place. But I guess that's an exception in the TMNT universe.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

The reason for that is he doesn't believe it so much as that he's saying it to get Raph worked up. That's WHY he says it, and why it comes out the way it does. Leo is the stronger fighter (as always, because of Raph's lack of control more than actual skill, a great example of this is in part 3 of Return to New York which I just re-read last night actually), and even lays a sword on Raph's shoulder during the fight. The entire encounter serves to show WHY Leo is the leader, in a film that otherwise never really does.

He teaches Raph his lesson, and Raph knows it when he talks to Splinter.

I'd bet some of the stuff that was cut explains what's going on in that scene even more explicitly.

I noticed it. :) It's like he was forcing himself to say those words. He didn't really mean them, but nothing else was working for him to get through to Raph. So essentially Leo gave him what he wanted to hear, and it worked.

[Revan]

Hasn't anyone noticed how it sounds like Leo is having a hard time getting his words out when he says "I'm better than you."?

This is not the only line that was delivered akwardly. There were different lines throughout the film that sounded off.

Ex) Leo: "Raph if you have some you want to get off yourschell, now's the time."

he seems to run 'your' and 'shell' together and pronounces shell akwardly.

Anyway I don't agree with PR's analysis on Leo's I'm better than you but that's the beauty of opinions.

[Janus Prospero]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Leo doesn't think the world revolves around him at all. In fact, if you listen to him, he really doesn't think that highly of himself. There are a lot of times where he thinks he's been a failure, or isn't good enough. You could see when Splinter gave him that medallion after he returned home that he didn't think he even deserved it. He just stood there staring at it like he didn't know what to do with it. And if you notice, sometimes when he knows he's done a good job, getting praise makes him a little embarrassed, as if he's uncomfortable of being called attention to.

Humility is being humble and modest of yourself. He doesn't behave arrogantly, self-righteously, or egotistically as one would think the world revolving around them does. That would imply that he was selfish, and Leo is not by any means selfish. As Splinter said to Raphael though while he had the merits of strength, passion, and loyalty of a great leader, he did not have the humility and compassion to balance it out as Leonardo does.

Agree 100%. Leo's humility in his success is almost to a fault. However, while I don't think that he thinks that the world revolves around him, I do think that Leo does have a little arrogance, but not in a way that contradicts his character. Leo sees his humility as a virtue, (and it is) but he also recognizes Raphael's lack of the virtue. But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"


So now is the revelation; that Leo learns Nightwatcher is Raph. It becomes a whole 'nother ball game at this point. Leo can't believe his own brother would be doing something like this. Raph starts on his tirade with Leo. Leo tries to get his brother to see that he's wrong, but nothing is getting through to him in the least. That's when he says something he would never otherwise; "I'm better than you."

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. And after seeing the movie five times, I still think it's out of character. It's super arrogant, which I don't think Leo ostensibly is. I think Leo may think that he's the better fighter amongst his brothers, but it's not something he would ever gloat about or hang over their heads. Now, as to why he said this, here is what I think: Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.


Actually, this is incorrect. The fight starts with both of them charging each other, after Raphael initiates the conflict as himself.

[Janus Prospero]

If it may please the court, I'd like to give my interpretation of the Raph vs Leo fight. First of all, let me start off by saying that Raphael is flat out my favorite turtle, so obviously deep down I wanted him to win this fight. However, I did like Leonardo more in this movie than I have in any of the previous turtle incarnations. (I think it really helps that he's voiced by JAT, whom I have been a big fan of ever since he started voicing Ratchet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_%28Ratchet_%26_Clank%29)in the Ratchet & Clank games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_%26_Clank_series).) Anyway, with that out of the way, I'm going to attempt to broach this subject with as much objectivity and as little bias as possible. So if anyone is a devout Raph or Leo fan, please read my whole post before responding to it. I feel like I give a fair analysis, but I have a lot of points to make.

Anyway, here is my theory.

I believe Raph beat Leo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He smoked him. Leo did not "let Raph win," and I don't even think Leo held back either (although I might concede that they both may have held back initially). I have several reasons for coming to this conclusion.

#1) Director, Kevin Munroe himself said in an interview that this movie settles the Raph VS Leo debate. So why all the debate after the movie? By his statement, I think Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) tells us that Raph won (at least in his eyes.) And since he wrote the script, he's the highest authority as far as I'm concerned.

#2) This isn't the first time Raph has beat Leo. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, in the Mirage Volume 1 comics, Issue # 19 (Return to New York, Part 1) (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume01/19/19.htm) Raph and Leo got into a brawl, which ended by Raph throwing Leo through the wall knocking him out.

#3) In the movie novelization, it reads, "Leonardo was not thinking of what Raphael had come so close to doing, but that Raphael had beaten him." I know that's not the best justification, but at least it's there. It's showing that he wasn't expecting to lose, so he was definitely putting forward some effort (at least in the novel's universe.)

#4) And this is the one that I think really sells it for me. Both Leo and Raph clearly learn something by the end of this movie. In the beginning, neither brother thought they needed each other. Leo thought Raph was merely a hindrance to his team and was more of a liability than anything. Raph thought he was better off on his own and his brother was just trying to hold him back. So what happens? They fight. Raph loses control and almost takes Leo out. They both realize their mistake and in the end they reconcile. Raphael accepts Leonardo as the one to lead them to victory, and Leo recognizes Raph as an invaluable member of his team. Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

Of course...I could be completely wrong. At any rate, we'll all just have to wait for the DVD commentary. :-D

With that out of the way, I'd like to do my best to settle the "My turtle is better than your turtle thing."

For those of you still not convinced, just play along with me and let's just assume Raph beat Leo fairly in combat. Does that mean Raph is straight up better than Leo? No, of course not. One of the main themes of this movie is that each turtle has strengths and weaknesses, and it is only as a family unit that their true strengths are realized. I like to think of the Raph/Leo thing as an analogy to the game Rock, Paper, Scissors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock%2C_Paper%2C_Scissors). Sure, rock breaks scissors, but that doesn't make rock better than scissors. Because as we all know Scissors > Paper > Rock and so on and so forth.

If you're confused by this, allow me to flesh it out further. Each turtle has their own style and personality. This becomes very apparent in every aspect of their lives, even when they are fighting. For example, Leo is usually very calm, collected, and focused while Raph is gritting his teeth, grunting, and basically going berserk.

Now, I can name 3 instances across two TMNT universes in which Mikey has beaten Raph in a fight of some sort: Mirage Raphael #1 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume01/raph/raph.htm) comic, the 2003 Cartoon episode "Meet Casey Jones" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet_Casey_Jones) (which is based on the Raphael comic), and the 2003 cartoon episode "Big Brawl, Part 3". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Brawl_%28TMNT_2003_Episode%29) Despite this, I think it would be a hard sell to insinuate that Mikey is on the whole a better warrior than Raph. So, how did Mikey beat Raph then? Well in each of the above instances basically Michelangelo agitated Raph to the point where he got under his skin and he was so annoyed that he couldn't even fight properly. Also, it probably didn't help that Mike is the most dexterous of the turtles and kept dodging Raph's attacks as he was mocking him. So while Mikey may not be the better warrior, the way he deals with sparring with Raph is in such a way that it allows him to come out on top. This tactic would obviously not work as well against Leo, who would probably brush off Mikey's taunts.

Now my argument is this. Raph beat Leo because Raph and his insubordination agitates his brother. During their confrontation, I think dealing with Raph causes Leo himself became ticked off! Leo got angry and became unbalanced. He was no longer his calm and collected self. He was fighting in uncharted territory. He was in Raphael's realm and that's why he lost.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything... (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8837/leomissup7.jpg)

Unfortunately for Leo, rage is what works for Raph and...well you've seen the movie, you know what happens. And just look at the expression on Leo's face after Raph snaps his swords and then almost stabs him in the head. Clearly something he was not expecting.

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/TLDR).

[Seiza]

But at least, he's shown off as the leader type and the most disciplined.
First off, thanks for answering my question. :) While he could have been portrayed as the best fighter in the OT (I'm sure there are those who disagree with your list), I wouldn't be surprised if writers try to tone that down and/or give the title to Raph in later mediums. Not because Raph has a killer fanbase (...maybe... *dodges bricks* :P ) but because being the best fighter isn't necessarily required to be a leader--stuff like discipline, maintaining a calm head and such are.

Also, Leo is already the leader and a devoted student. If you include "best fighter", "always right" etc. to his resume, he becomes very Gary Stuish.

Well, that part is. They all care about the "warrior code" and doing the right thing. Why else would they always be risking their lives for each other and for other innocents?
Splinter raised them all to live honorably, and that's what they do.
No offense to anyone, but anyone who says ALL the turtles aren't actual "warriors" or don't all follow the "warrior code", that's a load of bull****.
I think they're all warriors and have honour and such, but Leo is shown to be the only one who actively studies/knows about the Bushido code and its history (don't think I've heard Raph ever quote Miyamoto Musashi).

It's like not everyone who respects their parents, doesn't lie, doesn't steal and doesn't murder is a Christian who obeys the Ten Commandments. Those principles could simply be a product of their upbringing, just like Raph, Don and Mike could have picked up on honour/courage/what-have-you through Splinter's own teachings. But in terms of consciously following a code of conduct, it's Leo and Bushido.

But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"
I'm still wondering what exactly made Leo start thinking the team could work separately. Was it the time alone travelling? Because, you know, you'd think after working together for so long (that's quite a stash they have in that trophy room), the teamwork would be deeply entrenched in their thinking.

Hmm... Well, Raph storms out and does a solo-vigilante gig, but that's Raph (not to mention the circumstances that led to it, etc). But Leo? I'm not thinking so much what he said about Raph, although that's also an example (but I could see him letting that out due to frustration)--moreso what he said to April in the beginning of the movie.

Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them?
Yeah, someone did suggest this earlier too, and I think it's very realistic. They've both lived together and butted heads for so long, they know what hurts the other. And when you're more pissed than you've been for a long time, you don't think twice about using it.

Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.
I don't think Leo threw the fight--otherwise, he must be a very good actor, because he sure seemed really pissed off to me. XD

Raph might've started out with some self-control, but it's clear from his expression by the end that he's completely lost it and aimed to kill. On the other hand, I felt Leo went in wanting to win and stayed at that level of intensity--that's what I mean by "holding back", anyway.

Also, on a purely emotional level, the idea that Leo would throw the fight when his brother is going at it so thoroughly just kills something in that scene, IMHO. It's no longer two brothers baring their souls to each other; it's one being manipulated by the other. :ohwell:

[Warhorse]

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. And after seeing the movie five times, I still think it's out of character. It's super arrogant, which I don't think Leo ostensibly is. I think Leo may think that he's the better fighter amongst his brothers, but it's not something he would ever gloat about or hang over their heads. Now, as to why he said this, here is what I think: Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.


This is what I saw. It was a slip up between two brothers having this heated arguement. I don't think Leo was doing anything on purpose. It was just a fight that escaladed completely out of control. In the end, both realized how blind they are to problems that right in front of their faces. Raph got a reality check in his anger management, Leo got a reality check not to underestimate his brothers.

I think what screwing things up, is that the 2k3 toon has been the most recent adaptation of the Turtles next to this movie. Fans of the 2k3 have almost been conditioned to automatically think Leo will always win a fight or a sparring match with his brothers. I don't like saying this, but the 2k3 toon tends to over do it with super Leo. He does have his flaws in the 2k3 toon. I actually find him to be too trusting to a serious fault, to the point where he almost nearly gets himself killed, twice! But there are one on one battles that went to Leo being the victorious, when I think it would have been more balancing for one of the other Turtles to take the glory. And Leo's swords being able to slice through anything. I've worked with swords. They are not sharp enough to slice through metal chain like butter.

But this movie is a different incarnation from the 2k3 toon. It's going to paint it's on it's own canvas. Leo has major flaws (and these flaws have made this incarnation my favorite Leo yet) Raph does get his ass handed to him. He shrugs it off, get's back up and goes back for more. Splinter has you questioning his tactics with Leo. (I feel more sorry for Leo when he is interracting with Splinter, than interracting with Raph. When he and Raph are arguing, it's no different then watching my own family argue) But that's my take. It was just a heated fight. More emotional than usual. But it certaintly doesn't answer the question on who is the better fighter. Not by a long shot.


Now my argument is this. Raph beat Leo because Raph and his insubordination agitates his brother. During their confrontation, I think dealing with Raph causes Leo himself became ticked off! Leo got angry and became unbalanced. He was no longer his calm and collected self. He was fighting in uncharted territory. He was in Raphael's realm and that's why he lost.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything... (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8837/leomissup7.jpg)

Unfortunately for Leo, rage is what works for Raph and...well you've seen the movie, you know what happens. And just look at the expression on Leo's face after Raph snaps his swords and then almost stabs him in the head. Clearly something he was not expecting.

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/TLDR).

Great post. This is how I saw it as well. Leo was using anger in the second fight, and Raph has a little more experience it this then Leo. If Leo had been in a more calmer state, I think he would have never let the situation escalate to the point it did. He would've talked to Raph, or if Raph wass till insistent on fighting, then Leo would have been the better Turtle and walk away. Walking away can be a very affective stand to a fight.

But like you said, I think Leo was just so pissed off at the world, the way his training had gone (don't forget, while Splinter may have rewarded him, in the prequel, he was still kicked out of the ninja tribunal, and that shame is one of the reasons why he didn't come home) he was pissed off at the way his family was treating him, how hw seemed to have a hard time getting a hold of the situation. And then the arguement with Raph made him snap. I think he may have been shocked with what he had just said, with the I'm Better Than You line. But I think he wanted to get the fight out of his system. But he fought angry, and lost his composure, and lost. Good thing, Raph was able to catch himself from completely flipping his lid. He has more control than people want to give him credit for.

And this fight really doesn't prove anything among the Turtles. They all bring something valuable to the table. The team would be incomplete without all four in to do their dudy.

[Seiza]

And Leo's swords being able to slice through anything. I've worked with swords. They are not sharp enough to slice through metal chain like butter.
I heard Donny also deflects lasers with his bo staff? :lol: I figure they forge their own weapons from what they find, so... yikes, the stuff those New Yorkers must throw down their sewers... :lol:

And agreed about Super Leo in the 2k3 toon. I found it pretty hard to believe when he came out on top so easily during the "whose weapon is better" scene, but eh, I reserve the right to be spoiled. :P Whatever the case, I feel that in the movies, the playing field is much more levelled.

[triplexxx]

I think they're all warriors and have honour and such, but Leo is shown to be the only one who actively studies/knows about the Bushido code and its history (don't think I've heard Raph ever quote Miyamoto Musashi).

It's like not everyone who respects their parents, doesn't lie, doesn't steal and doesn't murder is a Christian who obeys the Ten Commandments. Those principles could simply be a product of their upbringing, just like Raph, Don and Mike could have picked up on honour/courage/what-have-you through Splinter's own teachings. But in terms of consciously following a code of conduct, it's Leo and Bushido.
I see what you're talking about. But all the turtles are metaphorically like Christians who follow the 10 commandments. The meaning of Bushido has somewhat differed from the way it used to be in the time period it first originated. For instance, the concept of seppuku; I doubt very much that concept is embraced nearly as much as it was back in the day. I mean, whoever it was who decided suicide had anything to do with honor must've lived in a pretty unGodly family or community. Quote from wikipedia's definition of Modern Bushido:The warrior protects and defends because he realizes the value of others. He knows that they are essential to society and, in his gift of service, recognizes and values theirs... take the extra moment in dark parking lots at night to make sure that a woman gets into her car safely before leaving yourself. Daily involvement in acts such as these are as much a part of training as time spent in the dojo, and indeed should be the reason for that time spent training... When faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor and aid, and those who would prey upon them. And in modern society, there is another loathsome breed who would totally ignore their plight!Which basically sums up what the turtles have made of their own lives. They are the "men who offer succor and aid" to a society which gives them no gratitude in return. Being diligent in Bushido isn't a matter of knowing your history, being able to quote early masters/philosophers, meditation (and I've seen several situations in 2k3 where all turtles meditate), or even about how good you're skills are (and they're all good); it's a simple, commonplace matter of using the skills you have to do the right thing.

[Seiza]

Being diligent in Bushido isn't a matter of knowing your history, being able to quote early masters/philosophers, meditation (and I've seen several situations in 2k3 where all turtles meditate), or even about how good you're skills are (and they're all good); it's a simple, commonplace matter of using the skills you have to do the right thing.
Hmm... I think knowing the history and thought process is what differentiates your average guy on the street and a student of something. It's like comparing someone who reads about Freud on Wikipedia and someone who's studying for a Bachelors in Psychology.

Another example I can think of right now is how Leo treats his swords in the 2k3 toon. All the guys are proud of their chosen weapons, yeah, but it's only Leo who's shown getting upset when his swords break/get lost (...repeatedly, even :lol: ). His bond with his weapons is probably due to his study of Bushido. I've not seen that same bond being emphasised for the other turtles, to the point that it's even used as a subplot like Leo's was in the Monster Hunter episode.

And I guess one could also consider how much he harps about honour in the NT and why he's usually in good behaviour (even though you practically had to drag the "Yes, Master" outta him in the movie, Leo still went out to look for Raph as per Splinter's orders).

Of course, I'm not saying you HAVE to follow Bushido to be a good person/son. But it might explain partially why Leo's so different from his brothers.

The meaning of Bushido has somewhat differed from the way it used to be in the time period it first originated. For instance, the concept of seppuku; I doubt very much that concept is embraced nearly as much as it was back in the day.
Considering Leo's a ninja, yeah, he's probably modified his code a bit. I can just imagine a young Leo becoming enamoured by "Bushido for Dummies", studies it, only to find out later it's not for dastardly ninjas like him. The heartbreak! :lol:

I think I see what you mean, that the turtles are all following Bushido/warrior code by helping others? Perhaps Raph, Don and Mikey follow (or unknowingly follow) this Modern Bushido, but considering Leo takes the time to learn about its philosophers and the stuff mentioned above, he seems to follow an older version and takes it more personally.

I think that while Raph, Don and Mikey are good kids who act honourably and help out people, it's less to do with Bushido for them and more to do with other influences (Splinter's, TV, media, story books etc.).

[triplexxx]

Well, I'm more than sure Raphael, Michaelangelo, and Donatello "knowingly" follow Bushido as much as Leonardo does. That's the whole basis of Splinter's influence and training them: to teach them Bushido, the ways of the warrior. And that's what Donatello stated at the end of Fallen Angel, "We're the guardians of the ways of Bushido." As for the love of weapons, well, another thing Bushido isn't about. As Splinter said, may not be direct quote, "It's not the weapon that matters, but the warrior who carries it." Weapons are only as good as the warrior who carries them. Despite what some may hear, it's impossible for weapons to hold honor or glory, because the fact is they are nothing but forged shapes of wood and metal. If you see someone admiring weapons displayed as an artifacts in a museum, it's really the warriors who carried the weapons who are being honored, not the weapons themselves, even if the people admiring them don't know it.
And truth to tell, I honestly don't think Leonardo is as different from his brothers as some think he is. Remember the Lost Season, where the Tribunal chose them all, and they all called upon the spirit of the dragon together, and it was considered the "highest of honors". And remember in Bad Day, when they all meditated to disintegrate the Foot Mystics on the spiritual plane. Also, in the first movie, it took all of them meditating to actually summon Splinter so he could communicate with them. All things considered, despite what others may say, I believe they all got pretty good meditation skills, and they're all very spiritual warriors. And the plane in which Bushido matters the most is the spiritual plane. I know there's more to the turtles, especially in 2k3, than some people think there is.

[Revan]

Well, I'm more than sure Raphael, Michaelangelo, and Donatello "knowingly" follow Bushido as much as Leonardo does. That's the whole basis of Splinter's influence and training them: to teach them Bushido, the ways of the warrior. And that's what Donatello stated at the end of Fallen Angel, "We're the guardians of the ways of Bushido." As for the love of weapons, well, another thing Bushido isn't about. As Splinter said, may not be direct quote, "It's not the weapon that matters, but the warrior who carries it." Weapons are only as good as the warrior who carries them. Despite what some may hear, it's impossible for weapons to hold honor or glory, because the fact is they are nothing but forged shapes of wood and metal. If you see someone admiring weapons displayed as an artifacts in a museum, it's really the warriors who carried the weapons who are being honored, not the weapons themselves, even if the people admiring them don't know it.
And truth to tell, I honestly don't think Leonardo is as different from his brothers as some think he is. Remember the Lost Season, where the Tribunal chose them all, and they all called upon the spirit of the dragon together, and it was considered the "highest of honors". And remember in Bad Day, when they all meditated to disintegrate the Foot Mystics on the spiritual plane. Also, in the first movie, it took all of them meditating to actually summon Splinter so he could communicate with them. All things considered, despite what others may say, I believe they all got pretty good meditation skills, and they're all very spiritual warriors. And the plane in which Bushido matters the most is the spiritual plane. I know there's more to the turtles, especially in 2k3, than some people think there is.

The all follow bushido, yes. But the live aciton movie and the 2k3 series portray Leo as having the most balanced mind.
Leo is first to summon his avatar in the lost season. Yes, they all eventually do it, but Leo is first.

And in the original movie, Leo is again the first to comminicate with Splinter through meditation. They all do it, but Leo figures it out and then his brothers follow him much like the avatar situation. They all have the abilities to meditate, but Leo showed them how.

[PrivateRadio]

This is not the only line that was delivered akwardly. There were different lines throughout the film that sounded off.

Ex) Leo: "Raph if you have some you want to get off yourschell, now's the time."

he seems to run 'your' and 'shell' together and pronounces shell akwardly.

Anyway I don't agree with PR's analysis on Leo's I'm better than you but that's the beauty of opinions.

Oh yeah, I get what you're saying, I think Leo sounds like crap for that entire exchange in April's apartment, but that was just bad VA work. What I was saying though, is that the line on the rooftop sounds intentionally struggled for that specific reason.

[triplexxx]

I got you Neutrino, but even though he called upon the dragon first, the transformation didn't actually occur until New World Order 2 , and they all did it at the same time. And Splinter didn't actually fully reach the turtles until they were all meditating. It took all of their efforts to actually summon Splinter, and actually summon the dragons and he wasn't literally showing them how to meditate in the first movie, they already knew how, he just had to get them to come outside, that's all. That they all follow Bushido, that's all I was getting across.

[Raphamel]

If it may please the court, I'd like to give my interpretation of the Raph vs Leo fight. First of all, let me start off by saying that Raphael is flat out my favorite turtle, so obviously deep down I wanted him to win this fight. I believe Raph beat Leo. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He smoked him. Leo did not "let Raph win," and I don't even think Leo held back either.

Raph is flat-out mine as well. I actually wanted Raph to win, but for the right reasons: I wanted them both to learn something. And they did. Leo wasn't cleared of any fault in the matter, it would make me angry too if my brother who'd left the family returned and then pretended like the last year and a half didn't happen (or worse: didn't *matter*). If Leo would have gotten the better of him in this fight, I'm sure Raph wouldn't have snapped out of his anger and would more than likely still be pissed in his Nightwatcher's suit somewhere. I like that Leo saw both the overly aggressive (which also incorporated a deep resentment from Leo's abandoning them) side of Raph and then the regretful, ashamed Raph. Leo should understand from 19 years of living with him that his brother is not just the hot-head he's always panning him out to be. Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has.

#1) Director, Kevin Munroe himself said in an interview that this movie settles the Raph VS Leo debate. So why all the debate after the movie? By his statement, I think Occam's razor tells us that Raph won (at least in his eyes.) And since he wrote the script, he's the highest authority as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard Kevin say a few times that Raphael is also his favorite. And I don't think that had an effect on the outcome of the fight, nor do I think he was trying to say that Raph would ALWAYS win, either. No one's in their top form all the time, not even the greatest of athletes. Sometimes your opponents are actually in their top form on a day when you are not. It's unrealistic for someone to win all the time, and never over the years have they shown one Turtle always winning, so I'm with you on this: Why are people so unable to believe what their own eyes show them? Leo *CAN* lose just like anyone else.

#4) And this is the one that I think really sells it for me. Both Leo and Raph clearly learn something by the end of this movie. In the beginning, neither brother thought they needed each other. Leo thought Raph was merely a hindrance to his team and was more of a liability than anything. Raph thought he was better off on his own and his brother was just trying to hold him back. So what happens? They fight. Raph loses control and almost takes Leo out. They both realize their mistake and in the end they reconcile. Raphael accepts Leonardo as the one to lead them to victory, and Leo recognizes Raph as an invaluable member of his team. Anyway, my point is, if Leo had thrown the fight, he wouldn't really have learned anything! He would have continued to think that he didn't really need Raph. He would have been all, "My wise plan to get Raph to follow me worked." But that isn't the case! I 100% agree with the poster that said that forfeiting the fight in lieu of teaching a lesson is a Splinter thing. Leonardo is in no way there yet.

Exactly. Leo was not being appreciative of his brother or even considering the fact that "Gee, wow, Raph's upset that I'd left them so long, maybe I should tell him why and... maybe.... even apologize." I'm glad that they came to a truce... if only until the next film ;)

I like to think of the Raph/Leo thing as an analogy to the game Rock, Paper, Scissors. Sure, rock breaks scissors, but that doesn't make rock better than scissors. Because as we all know Scissors > Paper > Rock and so on and so forth.

What a great analogy!

If you're confused by this, allow me to flesh it out further. Each turtle has their own style and personality. This becomes very apparent in every aspect of their lives, even when they are fighting. For example, Leo is usually very calm, collected, and focused while Raph is gritting his teeth, grunting, and basically going berserk.

Next time you see the movie, pay attention to the entire scene. When Leo was engaged in battle with the Nightwatcher, both he and Raph each exhibited their own distinct fighting mind set (calm VS angry.) But what happens after the big reveal when Leo finds out it's Raph under the helmet? Well, they argue and things get a little heated. Despite being fairly agitated, I think Leo is still mostly under control with his cold, "I'm better than you" and how he urges Raph not to fight him. But after they both start fighting it looks like they're both really into it. It's not just Raph attacking Leo and Leo deflecting the blow. Leo himself is taking swipes at Raph with his blade. In at one point Leo even charges Raph, rather than letting Raph come to him. How is that fighting defensively at all? They are both caught up in the moment, blinded by their own rage, and not even realizing how close they're coming to killing each other. That's why Leo misses Raph's head when he thrusts his blade at him. A lot of people have come to me and used that particular action as justification for why Leo is holding back through the entire fight. They say that Leo is just trying to scare Raph, but to me that is the only sign that Leo might be holding back. I'm going to need more than that to be convinced. It's not like Leo is some God of a swordsman that never misses or anything... (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8837/leomissup7.jpg)

That final pic made me almost spew out my cereal. Wasn't expecting that, lol. Poor Leo indeed. I agree they are both actually "fighting" and not one fighting and the other defending. That much is obvious to me. Just because Leo can't bring himself to actually deal out the killing blow doesn't mean that he's not angry enough to do it. He just has a control over that anger and so he doesn't do it. One of the differences he and Raph display in this scene. It does not mean that Leo is IN ANY WAY intending to let Raph win. How is he to know whether Raph's idea of winning means a stab in the eye or not? It's stupid to think Leo would let anyone best him in a fight, especially one as angry and unpredictable as Raph! I do like to think, however, that deep down Leo knew that Raph would never kill his own brother no matter how angry he was. But in the heat of battle isn't it easy to lose such an understanding of someone when they're too angry at you to use similar reasoning?

So, that is my interpretation of how it all went down. You don't have to agree with me, but I've thought about this for a long time, so I feel like it at least makes sense. Hope it wasn't a case of TLDR.

Never!! Some readers here do hate long posts, but they're the ones missing out. I'd like to think most of us love reading any intelligent post from a well-read Turtles fan ;)

Agree 100%. Leo's humility in his success is almost to a fault. However, while I don't think that he thinks that the world revolves around him, I do think that Leo does have a little arrogance, but not in a way that contradicts his character. Leo sees his humility as a virtue, (and it is) but he also recognizes Raphael's lack of the virtue. But rather than wanting to deal with Raph and work through his flaws in order to form a unified team, Leo believes the team would be better off without Raphael. As is exhibited later in the movie when he says, "What do we need Raph for anyway? He's the one that's always jeopardizing our missions!"

Agreed. I don't see how Leo fans can be so put off by their beloved Turtle having a little arrogance. He's not perfect, I for one like Leo better being a realistic young person--that is, with flaws. He's still just as respectable. And he learns from his mistakes in this film, and that's even better.

I've thought long and hard about why Leo says this. I must admit that when I first saw the movie I thought it was a bit out of character. Have you ever argued with a friend, and the argument got a little heated? Eventually, you said something that you later regretted, and since you were friends with that person the thing you said really stung because you knew the person and you knew what you said was really going to hurt them? I think this is what happened in this situation. I think that the argument between him and Raph just angered Leo so much, that it caused him to say something that he knows him and Raph have been thinking all these years. That's why it is so out of character. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me.

Beautifully thought out. Hit the nail right on the head. Have you really only made two posts on the Technodrome Forums? Welcome, my good man ;)

[Leonardo Mystic]

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.
Actually, this is incorrect. The fight starts with both of them charging each other, after Raphael initiates the conflict as himself.

As I saw it, Raph charged first, then Leo follows. After the first clash when they pause for a moment, yes, Leo is the first to charge here as now he's really angry at this point.

[Warhorse]

I heard Donny also deflects lasers with his bo staff? :lol: I figure they forge their own weapons from what they find, so... yikes, the stuff those New Yorkers must throw down their sewers... :lol:

And agreed about Super Leo in the 2k3 toon. I found it pretty hard to believe when he came out on top so easily during the "whose weapon is better" scene, but eh, I reserve the right to be spoiled. :P Whatever the case, I feel that in the movies, the playing field is much more levelled.


Oops. I forgot about Donny and his magical stick! See, I keep saying it and saying it. We gotta have Hermoine and Donny meet one day. And not in the sense of romance. But that they have similar traits to eachother, and they both have a signature "super brain".:D

[Janus Prospero]

Beautifully thought out. Hit the nail right on the head. Have you really only made two posts on the Technodrome Forums? Welcome, my good man ;)

Thank you for your kind words, and yes reading this post prompted me to join the forum, so that's why I don't have many posts (yet). I actually had the entire post typed up before my account was activated. The wait was killer. ;-)


As I saw it, Raph charged first, then Leo follows. After the first clash when they pause for a moment, yes, Leo is the first to charge here as now he's really angry at this point.

The way the scene is shot/edited it does show Raph charge first, but then the camera immediately cuts to Leo charging. So I think for all intents and purposes they're just both charging each other.

[jenna]

Janus Prospero - Good words, dude. I'm luvin' your theories.

[Swany]

Well, my brain juices are certainly flowing.

I have to admit, I've changed my ideas about this. After seeing the movie again, and reading other peoples opinions. Im deffo rethinking this.

Just have to get my thoughts to together.


Janus Prospero, welcome and yeah, I'm loving your theories too.

[Revan]

The way the scene is shot/edited it does show Raph charge first, but then the camera immediately cuts to Leo charging. So I think for all intents and purposes they're just both charging each other.

I saw it like leo mystic, I got the feeling that Raph engaged Leo. Only after Raph charged, Leo did as well. Then everything that happened after the fight was underway was the heat of battle.

[Seiza]

^Splitting the screen into two would've been a way to show them both charging at the same time.

Though I think it's not possible to say conclusively whether Raph charged first. I can only remember two moments where Leo shows hesitation (the "don't do it, Raph" line and that small breath he takes before drawing his swords); after that, he's giving his all in the battle.

Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has.
LOL! Is this based on posts by other TMNT fans? Because if so, well... This is the first time I've seen any indication of anyone thinking Raph is less complex than Leo. I usually see Leo being called the flat one. :lol:

Or are you looking at it from Leo's POV, i.e. that he might think Raph's only got one set of emotions (angry, pissed off, sulky, brooding-- rinse and repeat)? XD

Why are people so unable to believe what their own eyes show them? Leo *CAN* lose just like anyone else.
Don't underestimate the powers of fanboyism/fangirlism. :D It's about as bad as those who claim Leo "only" got that uppercut in the first part of the fight "just" because Raph was in his Nightwatcher suit. I felt the fight was clear in that sense: Leo rightfully won the first round, Raph rightfully won the second.

As for the emotional and psychological aspects? Details to be discussed on message boards.

[Janus Prospero]

^Splitting the screen into two would've been a way to show them both charging at the same time.

Though I think it's not possible to say conclusively whether Raph charged first.

Well, I don't even think that's the issue really. I mean, everyone admits that Raph initiated the fight. But if Leo was fighting defensively, he would have let Raph come to him rather than charge him at all.


Don't underestimate the powers of fanboyism/fangirlism. :D It's about as bad as those who claim Leo "only" got that uppercut in the first part of the fight "just" because Raph was in his Nightwatcher suit.

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision. :D

[Swany]

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision. :D

Yeah it has a snout that sticks out a bit. Raph did look down at Leo, he just didn't react quickly enough.

[Seiza]

Well, I don't even think that's the issue really. I mean, everyone admits that Raph initiated the fight. But if Leo was fighting defensively, he would have let Raph come to him rather than charge him at all.
Ah, that's true. Leo certainly wasn't fighting defensively, at any rate.

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision. :D
:evil:

Heheh. Basically, strip away the long-winded rambling in all my posts, my stance is simple enough-- despite EVERYTHING in the first half, Leo won; and despite EVERYTHING in the second half, Raph won. Both wins came with conditions, but they are wins nonetheless.

Kevin Munroe did say the answer to Raph vs. Leo would be known in this battle-- and IMHO, it's neither. ;) Any turtle can beat the other, depending on the circumstances and such.

[PrivateRadio]

By the way, though Raph did get past Leo in Return to New York pt 1, in either issue 48 or 49 Leo takes a super pissed Raph in two out of three falls.

[johnnyblaze]

Well, that helmet had to cause some sort of tunnel vision. :DI don't know, I mean he's a ninja . Aren't one of their little tricks is to have the ability to defend themselves without even being able to see. We even saw them practicing that in the first film on the farm. Just saying :D .

[Janus Prospero]

I don't know, I mean he's a ninja . Aren't one of their little tricks is to have the ability to defend themselves without even being able to see. We even saw them practicing that in the first film on the farm. Just saying :D .

True, but I'd imagine that skill is all about utilizing a hightened sense of hearing, smell, and touch. All of which would have been dampened in the full Nightwatcher getup.

[johnnyblaze]

True, but I'd imagine that skill is all about utilizing a hightened sense of hearing, smell, and touch. All of which would have been dampened in the full Nightwatcher getup.why would it be dampened? hell in this case he even still had good vision to utilize. if the helmet was going to be an issue with his ability to fight in any style he would have worn something different or modified it a bit. Raph could move and fight perfectly well in that get up.

[triplexxx]

why would it be dampened? hell in this case he even still had good vision to utilize. if the helmet was going to be an issue with his ability to fight in any style he would have worn something different or modified it a bit. Raph could move and fight perfectly well in that get up.
But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

[johnnyblaze]

But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

no your assuming it slowed him down and that he had problems seeing. the guy seemed perfectly fine as is. if the helmet or gloves were going to intefere with his ability to use any of his training including his ability to hear, touch and smell I gaurantee you that he would not have worn it or he would have modified it. I mean how much does he need to hear to be able to fight an opponent? What does he need to touch other than fist to jaw? And who says he can't smell anything? That thing has to have holes in it, otherwise it would be pretty hard for him to breath. Surely with those holes he can catch a whiff of his enemies. One of his main gifts is his ability to work in and out of darkness with ease and in this case he even had vision to work with. Everything else about his ability to hear, smell and touch being hampered have little to back it up other than the assumption that helmet and costume=hampered skills.

I can understand if you want Raph to win a fight but let's not make excuses just because he lost the first round. He lost because Leo beat him fair and square, not because of his helmet.

[Revan]

But it did slow him down somewhat, and his vision was limited. And Janus Prospero is right: the whole point of fighting with little or no sight is to use the other senses- hearing, touch, and smell. The Nightwatcher helmet limited every one of these senses.

The armour had its weaknesses, yes. But it also gave raph a one up in blocking blows from Leo. That had to hurt Leo striking steal with his bare arms. Raph could easily block with his arm covered in armour. And Getting punched by a metal gauntlet has to hurt more than a bare fist.

[triplexxx]

no your assuming it slowed him down and that he had problems seeing. the guy seemed perfectly fine as is. if the helmet or gloves were going to intefere with his ability to use any of his training including his ability to hear, touch and smell I gaurantee you that he would not have worn it or he would have modified it. I mean how much does he need to hear to be able to fight an opponent? What does he need to touch other than fist to jaw? And who says he can't smell anything? That thing has to have holes in it, otherwise it would be pretty hard for him to breath.

I can understand if you want Raph to win a fight but let's not make excuses just because he lost the first round. He lost because Leo beat him fair and square, not because of his helmet.
I'm not assuming anything. He couldn't hear very well exactly what Leonardo was saying, that was proof. And the extra weight did slow him down; but he didn't need speed to beat Leonardo, just clearer vision, which he got when fighting Leonardo without his helmet.

And I didn't want anyone to win. I think it was wrong of them to fight in the first place. I'm just analyzing and evaluating a situation using common sense. And it was all really one fight, just so you know, and Raphael won; after the uppercut, he got right back up uninjured, the fight paused for a short argument, then resumed.

Just as Neutrino said, I believe the armor gave advantages AS WELL AS disadvantages.

[johnnyblaze]

I'm not assuming anything. He couldn't hear very well exactly what Leonardo was saying, that was proof. And the extra weight did slow him down; but he didn't need speed to beat Leonardo, just clearer vision, which he got when fighting Leonardo without his helmet.

And I didn't want anyone to win. I think it was wrong of them to fight in the first place. I'm just analyzing and evaluating a situation using common sense. And it was all really one fight, just so you know, and Raphael won; after the uppercut, he got right back up uninjured, the fight paused for a short argument, then resumed.

No what we heard is his commenting on the fact that Leo was lecturing him over Leo's lecturing. We heard him talking and listening to Casey with his helmet on earlier in the film so that difficult hearing thing doesn't fly. And where are you getting this extra weight thing slowed him down? How fast is he normally? Do you have numbers to prove that it slowed him down? And he beat Leo because he out muscled Leo. It had nothing to do with his helmet--he got angry and out muscled him just like Leo simply out fought Raph before hand. Saying he lost because of the helmet is an assumption. And the fight was 2 rounds goign by the way I "evaluate a situation using common sense". Leo won round 1/ pause to argue/ Raph wins round 2

The costume giving him a disadvantage is simply assumptions. There was nothing to show that he was having trouble fighting with the costume. Issues only arrised when he lost round 1 to Leo before the helmet came off and his identity was revealed, and he lost that because Leo honestly, straight up, beat him

[triplexxx]

The costume giving him a disadvantage is simply assumptions. There was nothing to show that he was having trouble fighting with the costume. Issues only arrised when he lost round 1 to Leo before the helmet came off and his identity was revealed, and he lost that because Leo honestly, straight up, beat him
No, it's no assumption. It's "common sense" that full-body armor slows someone down, and it seemed pretty heavy. And he would've had no problem finding Leonardo right behind him, just before the uppercut, if that helmet hadn't limited his vision, so yes there were disadvantages, but also enough advantages to level it all. As you said, it was all fair and square. So that means, whatever the result of the whole fight was, and you know what it was, it was indeed fair and square.

[johnnyblaze]

No, it's no assumption. It's "common sense" that full-body armor slows someone down, and it seemed pretty heavy. And he would've had no problem finding Leonardo right behind him, just before the uppercut, if that helmet hadn't limited his vision, so yes there were disadvantages, but also enough advantages to level it all. As you said, it was all fair and square. So that means, whatever the result of the whole fight was, and you know what it was, it was indeed fair and square. Yet look at him--he's running rooftops, fighting with incredible speed and so on. My butt it slowed him down. Did you not see his moves? How is that slow? Full body armor does not automatically equal dampened skills. Look at movie Batman or the freaking Power Rangers for example. Body armor and helmets and they still kick an impossible amount of ass without any issues from their Ranger helmets or bat armor.

And he lost Leo because Leo out moved him. His helmet had nothing to do with his ability to not notice Leo behind him. He got sloppy and Leo capitalized on it, just as Leo pointed out during the fight when he gave his 'the problem with anger is it makes you lose all sight' speech. And when he turned around Leo was waiting for him and he got caught. That was sloppiness on Raph's part--not the doing of a difficult helmet.

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?

[triplexxx]

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?
It means whatever happened in the end of the whole thing (Raphael won in the end) was fair and square. And that we both made our points.

[Warhorse]

Yet look at him--he's running rooftops, fighting with incredible speed and so on. My butt it slowed him down. Did you not see his moves? How is that slow? Full body armor does not automatically equal dampened skills. Look at movie Batman or the freaking Power Rangers for example. Body armor and helmets and they still kick an impossible amount of ass without any issues from their Ranger helmets or bat armor.

And he lost Leo because Leo out moved him. His helmet had nothing to do with his ability to not notice Leo behind him. He got sloppy and Leo capitalized on it, just as Leo pointed out during the fight when he gave his 'the problem with anger is it makes you lose all sight' speech. And when he turned around Leo was waiting for him and he got caught. That was sloppiness on Raph's part--not the doing of a difficult helmet.

And yeah I said the results where fair and square--what's your point?

Triplexxx is right, that the suit could have been an inhibitor. It is common sense to realize that a metal and leather suit not only has some added weight to it, but leather can restrict your full movement, and that the suit would get hot and stuffy right quick.

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

[Raphamel]

Raph has layers just like you do, Leo. Always has. LOL! Is this based on posts by other TMNT fans? Because if so, well... This is the first time I've seen any indication of anyone thinking Raph is less complex than Leo. I usually see Leo being called the flat one.

*gasp!* Leo's not FLAT--I thought the implants did him wonders!!! No wonder Mikey had to hug him around the waist, that chest area is just way too bulky now!

Or are you looking at it from Leo's POV, i.e. that he might think Raph's only got one set of emotions (angry, pissed off, sulky, brooding-- rinse and repeat)? XD

Yes, LOL (smartass! :P) I was looking at it from Leo's POV, he kind of went through the motions as a typical older brother thinking his emotional younger brother is full of piss and vinegar and had some growing up to do before he was worth giving the time of day to. I refer to it as The "I'm Better Than You" syndrome :lol: Happens in many families across the globe, Leo's not really to blame for that.

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

Exactly, Warhorse!! I've stated a similar argument on YouTube and I got flamed by crazies like I was some demon eating their dreams. I don't understand all the denial about this particular subject. We as the audience saw out of the helmet through Raph's eyes in two different instances and the peripheral vision is NOT the best (he's lucky he doesn't steer that motorcycle into a ravine once or twice!!) It's suitable enough to take on the common criminal since they're not as agile or swift as a ninja.

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

The helmet is probably a good reason why the Jersey Devil got the best of him for awhile, too (but thankfully it saved him from a few concussions, bwahaha). On that note I thought Raph's idea for the little "snack" was actually pretty ingenious, lol. There's proof that even Raph has a little Donny in him!

[johnnyblaze]

Triplexxx is right, that the suit could have been an inhibitor. It is common sense to realize that a metal and leather suit not only has some added weight to it, but leather can restrict your full movement, and that the suit would get hot and stuffy right quick.

If you thought Raph was moving very fast with the suit on, can you imagine how much more faster he would be without it.

If you dont believe us, you go and put on a Harley Davidson Biker's outfit on, and see how swell you can move, compared to your movements without it!

Dude i'm gonna tell you the same thing I told triplexxx, unless there was a moment where Raphael says "man this suit is hard to wear in battle" or" man this suit is an inhibitor" there is nothing to back up that he had trouble moving in the suit other than the assumption that a suit=diminished abilities. Its common sense in the real world to assume that but this isn't the real worlf we are talking about and the fact that he moves, fights and does everything he normally does so easily proves that this 'real world assumption' you are placing on him is not applying to him. Not to mention the other examples I posted i.e Power Rangers with their huge helmets fighting with ease or movie Batman who not only wears a giant rubber suit but a freaking cape yet still can fight perfectly well. This suit must be an inhibitor thing are just assumptions to try to justify why Raphael lost to Leo.

[johnnyblaze]

*gasp!* Leo's not FLAT--I thought the implants did him wonders!!! No wonder Mikey had to hug him around the waist, that chest area is just way too bulky now!



Yes, LOL (smartass! :P) I was looking at it from Leo's POV, he kind of went through the motions as a typical older brother thinking his emotional younger brother is full of piss and vinegar and had some growing up to do before he was worth giving the time of day to. I refer to it as The "I'm Better Than You" syndrome :lol: Happens in many families across the globe, Leo's not really to blame for that.



Exactly, Warhorse!! I've stated a similar argument on YouTube and I got flamed by crazies like I was some demon eating their dreams. I don't understand all the denial about this particular subject. We as the audience saw out of the helmet through Raph's eyes in two different instances and the peripheral vision is NOT the best (he's lucky he doesn't steer that motorcycle into a ravine once or twice!!) It's suitable enough to take on the common criminal since they're not as agile or swift as a ninja.



The helmet is probably a good reason why the Jersey Devil got the best of him for awhile, too (but thankfully it saved him from a few concussions, bwahaha). On that note I thought Raph's idea for the little "snack" was actually pretty ingenious, lol. There's proof that even Raph has a little Donny in him!
Excuses. He had trouble with the Jersey Devil because the thing was small, quick and had super strength, not because the helmet gave him trouble seeing it. I mean people keep wanting to bring up real world common sense, don't you think it would make real world common sense for him to decided to wear something easier to see out of if wearing the helmet was going to hurt/dimishish his ability to see whats going on around him? And yeah his visors were narrow but it was wide enough for him to be able to see a nice solid view of Leo during the lecture scene. Nor did it hurt his ability to notice the criminal with the gun shaking behind him while he faced the opposite direction in the beggining. Wait let me guess, he probably heard the shaking? Well then why could he not utilize his training to hear Leo instead of getting all riled up in the middle of the fight if? That was slopiness on Raphael's part, not the helmets parts. He lost to Leo because Leo out moved him. And you know what, it did come down to his not being able to see--it came down to his not being able to see Leo because Leo was screwing with him and proving a point--that his anger was going to make him lose all sight to his goal---which proved true when Leo out moved him.

[Warhorse]

Dude i'm gonna tell you the same thing I told triplexxx, unless there was a moment where Raphael says "man this suit is hard to wear in battle" or" man this suit is an inhibitor" there is nothing to back up that he had trouble moving in the suit other than the assumption that a suit=diminished abilities. Its common sense in the real world to assume that but this isn't the real worlf we are talking about and the fact that he moves, fights and does everything he normally does so easily proves that this 'real world assumption' you are placing on him is not applying to him. Not to mention the other examples I posted i.e Power Rangers with their huge helmets fighting with ease or movie Batman who not only wears a giant rubber suit but a freaking cape yet still can fight perfectly well. This suit must be an inhibitor thing are just assumptions to try to justify why Raphael lost to Leo.

Power Rangers are a poor example to initiate your point. One of the big lures of the TMNT is that they are non superheroes in a realistic setting.

And the Power Rangers didn't have heavy suits on. And I have watched the Batman movies, he seemed to be a bit sluggish in that suit, compared to what a real fighter would be without it.

Same scenario with Raph.

Also, Raph didn't say the suit was difficult for him, but he also never said that it was easy either.

But I dont have to use the suit to show how good Raph can be. Leo was also alot fresher in the fight compared to Raph, who had just gone through the attack with the stone generals, being tranquelized, then having the fight with the Jersey Devil, while Leo has been hanging kind of laid back the past few days. But I'm sure you can argue that Leo had some jet lag, but since he didn't seem to complain about that, I guess he never really did.:P

[johnnyblaze]

Power Rangers are a poor example to initiate your point. One of the big lures of the TMNT is that they are non superheroes in a realistic setting.

And the Power Rangers didn't have heavy suits on. And I have watched the Batman movies, he seemed to be a bit sluggish in that suit, compared to what a real fighter would be without it.

Same scenario with Raph.

Also, Raph didn't say the suit was difficult for him, but he also never said that it was easy either.

But I dont have to use the suit to show how good Raph can be. Leo was also alot fresher in the fight compared to Raph, who had just gone through the attack with the stone generals, being tranquelized, then having the fight with the Jersey Devil, while Leo has been hanging kind of laid back the past few days. But I'm sure you can argue that Leo had some jet lag, but since he didn't seem to complain about that, I guess he never really did.:P


How is it a poor example? Because 1 city is named Angel Grove and the other New York? Both cities are no more real than the other in their respective story. And while this New York is based on a real city it doesn't mean that all the rules of real life New York apply to this version. The simple fact that these are Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles fighting Stone Generals in a New York City who doesn't seem to have many cops around throws out the 'non superheroes in realistic settings' thing. How realistic does their world have to be? They already take liberties with the realistic aspect of their world anyways so please tell me. These guys may not be superheroes in the sense that they don't answer the call of the city but they are heroes in the sense that they fight the bad guys and fight for what's right in a world that is very much real to them.

And the Rangers wear helmets in the tv show (and sometimes bigger armor in many cases i.e Battllizer fights that utilize hand to hand combats like Nick's or Jack's) and armor with helmets in their first movie so there you go, helmets and armor. Plus Batman looked sluggish to you? How fast should he be? Fast enough to fight multiple bad guys at the same time like in Batman Begins ?(you know, during his first appearance when he starts moving around the room quickly and in the shadows, pulling bad guys into the darkness while they are unable to see him before he jumps down and fights about 5 bad guys at the same time, beating all of them.) Batman looked sluggish to you compared to a real fighter and you got that same feeling from a rooftop jumping, motorcyle riding, ninja fighting Raphael as well? That looked sluggish to you? Come on now....

And yeah he never said the suit was easy (how did I know someoen was goign to try that) but the fact that we saw how well he could move with it shows that it definatly was not hard for him. And yeah Raph had been through all those things but Raphael seemed perfectly fine after the generals attack, the tranquilizer affects had been worn off, and while the Jersey Devil threw him around he was in no way hurt. And jet lag? What does jet lag have to do with anything?

[triplexxx]

If there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that Raphael's suit slowed him down, even a little, or that his senses were a little dulled by the helmet, then there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that the suit offered Raphael any protection from Leonardo's blows, or that Leonardo's punching or kicking him would hurt Leonardo in any way. You ever noticed when the turtle punch or kick Shredder, they do so with no armor, protection, or whatever, and they NEVER showed any sign that it hurt. Don't you think, in the real world, it would hurt their hands and feet to assault Shredder in all that armor, or to get assaulted by him? Not to mention, Shredder has spikes on his armor, and yet the turtles kick or hit him in areas that are damn close to these spikes all the time.
I'd say the suit was more about keeping Raphael's ID hidden rather than for actual protection.

This whole thing's going nowhere anyway. It was Raphael who won the fight "fair and square" anyway. And bottom line is (as I've said before): any turtle can beat any of his brothers on any given day, and each turtle has an area in training where they're dominant over their brothers. There's not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best.

[johnnyblaze]

If there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that Raphael's suit slowed him down, even a little, or that his senses were a little dulled by the helmet, then there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that the suit offered Raphael any protection from Leonardo's blows, or that Leonardo's punching or kicking him would hurt Leonardo in any way. You ever noticed when the turtle punch or kick Shredder, they do so with no armor, protection, or whatever, and they NEVER showed any sign that it hurt. Don't you think, in the real world, it would hurt their hands and feet to assault Shredder in all that armor, or to get assaulted by him? Not to mention, Shredder has spikes on his armor, and yet the turtles kick or hit him in areas that are damn close to these spikes all the time.
I'd say the suit was more about keeping Raphael's ID hidden rather than for actual protection.

This whole thing's going nowhere anyway. It was Raphael who won the fight "fair and square" anyway. And bottom line is (as I've said before): any turtle can beat any of his brothers on any given day, and each turtle has an area in training where they're dominant over their brothers. There's not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best. Not sure if your talking to me or not but I'll just sat that that's fine--that was never my argument to begin with, someone else brought that up. my argument was that saying the suit limited his abilities is just an assumption considering he looked to be able to move and fight perfectly fine. And I agree, the suit seemed more like it aided him by protecting who he really was. That's why I said that if anything the suit would have been ditched had it limited his ability to use his fighting techniques.

The way I see it, and i'm guessing the way you see it, is that it was simply a fair fight. Raphael simply lost to Leo and vice versa. Nobody was limited or had anything holding their abilities back. They simply outfought each other using different methods.

[jenna]

I'm sure the suit was heavy- it is a well know fact that biker gear is heavy (my hubby used to ride a bike before his hysterical wife made him quit - yup, that's me: I'm neurotic - and I can tell you that his movement was very restricted), but I don't think anyone is using that as an excuse for raphael losing the first round. He would have lost that round anyway - becuase Leo was using his temper against him. "Funny thing about anger is, let it consume you, and you lose sight of everything" POW. It had nothing to do with how heavy the gear was, but that does not negate the fact that it would have been heavy anyway.

[Warhorse]

If there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that Raphael's suit slowed him down, even a little, or that his senses were a little dulled by the helmet, then there's no reason to apply the "real-world" concepts that the suit offered Raphael any protection from Leonardo's blows, or that Leonardo's punching or kicking him would hurt Leonardo in any way. You ever noticed when the turtle punch or kick Shredder, they do so with no armor, protection, or whatever, and they NEVER showed any sign that it hurt. Don't you think, in the real world, it would hurt their hands and feet to assault Shredder in all that armor, or to get assaulted by him? Not to mention, Shredder has spikes on his armor, and yet the turtles kick or hit him in areas that are damn close to these spikes all the time.
I'd say the suit was more about keeping Raphael's ID hidden rather than for actual protection.

This whole thing's going nowhere anyway. It was Raphael who won the fight "fair and square" anyway. And bottom line is (as I've said before): any turtle can beat any of his brothers on any given day, and each turtle has an area in training where they're dominant over their brothers. There's not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best.

Out of curosity, is this some tongue and cheek humor going on here, and it seems that certain individuals still dont seem to get it?

I'm sure the suit was heavy- it is a well know fact that biker gear is heavy (my hubby used to ride a bike before his hysterical wife made him quit - yup, that's me: I'm neurotic - and I can tell you that his movement was very restricted), but I don't think anyone is using that as an excuse for raphael losing the first round. He would have lost that round anyway - becuase Leo was using his temper against him. "Funny thing about anger is, let it consume you, and you lose sight of everything" POW. It had nothing to do with how heavy the gear was, but that does not negate the fact that it would have been heavy anyway.

I honestly wouldn't know how restricted Raph's movements would be, but I just could imagine the heat inside the damn suit! But according to some people on here, the Turtles bodies and feelings dont exist since they are a fictional character.

(Even though we do see that the Turtles do feel pain, Mikey claims his head hurts the following morning, and they all have band-aids sporadically placed. And oh, can't forget in the first movie, Raph was nearly killed, we saw blood on the Turtles, and they were nursing back wounds from the first fight with the foot. Not to mention Donny's look of pain while holding his arm after his fight with Shredder, and all the Turtles are panting, out of breath, when Mikey began to wonder at exactly what point did they lose control with the fight with Shredder.)

[vagrant718]

this argument is getting out of hand and is only going to keep on going. Everybody trying to find every little excuse they can think of to justify why their favorite turtle lost/won. The way i see it Leo won the against Nightwatcher and Raph won against Leo, but that doesnt mean that Raph is better, and who to say that if Leo had on a battle armor if the outcome would still be the same ? Leo had beaten Raph before, so have Mikey and so on and the same could probably be said vice versa. Can we all agree on that ?

[triplexxx]

The bottom line is (as I've said before): any turtle can beat any of his brothers on any given day, and each turtle has an area in training where they're dominant over their brothers. There's not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best. That's all I was intending to prove. Today Raphael won against Leonardo in a fair fight, the next day, it could be different-it's unpredictable.

[Revan]

^ right on. on any given sunday

[Swany]

I've been doing some thinking and I really dont think either of them actually "won". I mean, Leo needed to be taken down a peg and Raph had to learn that he has to calm the beans sometimes.

Well thats my idea anyhoo.

[Warhorse]

I've been doing some thinking and I really dont think either of them actually "won". I mean, Leo needed to be taken down a peg and Raph had to learn that he has to calm the beans sometimes.

Well thats my idea anyhoo.

Calm the beans? That's a new one. Where did you hear that expression from?

[Swany]

Calm the beans? That's a new one. Where did you hear that expression from?

Its one I use quite often. Picked it up...somewhere YEARS ago. Soundes better thn calm down methinks.