i was wondering.......

[Haddyskelly]

when the turtles mutated did they just mutat or did they kinda go half human? i mean they can talk they have human interests they have human knowledge they can stand they kinda got human hands and feet also they have a build of a human so yeah im just wondering.

[Buslady]

there's the general idea of they're mutations.

Then there's all the fun theories how they changed. One of my ideas is there was human DNA in the radioactive gunk and it found it's way into their DNA and began to react by mutating the organism...four cute widdle turtles and a rattie.

[Revan]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

[triplexxx]

They've been raised to be spiritual, haven't they? Though I can't say for certain which actual religion they abide to.

[Kendamu]

Sccording to overprotective Soccor Moms of the early 1990s, Splinter's meditation practices and abilities to sense certain things proved that he was Satanic... meaning that the TMNT were raised in a Satanic home. :roll:

[Andrew NDB]

when the turtles mutated did they just mutat or did they kinda go half human? i mean they can talk they have human interests they have human knowledge they can stand they kinda got human hands and feet also they have a build of a human so yeah im just wondering.

Good question. I'll address it as it pertains to the Mirage/source material, which also kind of carries over to the 4Kids stuff.

Theory 1) The radioactive chemical waste of the TCRI Utroms was waste from their human-skin/body generating efforts (as well as the Transmat). Obviously, since the Utrom skins were designed to look human... it reasons to say any radioactive waste from such would make the mutatee (hey, a new word!) human-esque.

Theory 2) The radioactive chemical waste of the TCRI Utroms is actually a hyper-evolution agent. When the Turtles are exposed to it, it's the equivalent to four red-earred sliders suddenly receiving millions of years of evolution.

Either theory seems equally valid in my book.

But if you're talking about other universes like the original cartoon (and subsequently the Archies), that's quite another story. Of course they're half human. The way the mutagen in that show worked, if you're a man, and you touched an ant, then some mutagen, you instantly become Ant-Man (or vice-versa), which is sorta over the top in my book, but I won't knock it. In the movies it would literally be Theory #2, the hyper-evolution, since there's no Utroms or TCRI (TGRI and humans instead)... or just simply an enlargening agent, depending on how you look at it (re: SuperShredder and the dandylions in TMNT 2 ).

[Cascadia]

either theory would work in my book..although the second is slightly stronger in my mind because chemicals can cause mutations.

[triplexxx]

Sccording to overprotective Soccor Moms of the early 1990s, Splinter's meditation practices and abilities to sense certain things proved that he was Satanic... meaning that the TMNT were raised in a Satanic home. :roll:
And the fact that the turtles use the skills they were taught to unselfishly risk their lives for the safety of a society that cares nothing for them means nothing to these "Soccor Moms"? Although, I did find out that according to the original comc book storyline, Splinter's initial purpose in training his sons was for satisfying his vendetta against Shredder, and vendetta killings do qualify as murder, unless they happen to be done in self-defense. So, in a sense, the turtles were raised to commit a murder at some point in their life.

[Cascadia]

:nod: The only time that this was not the case is during the 1987 series and Archie comics.

[VaughnMichael]

Something that always botherd me with the old toon mutation atleast was the fact that the turtles where not just around a human but the same rats that mutated hamato yoshi so wouldn't that mean that by the theory of the mutagen that they would not only be part human but part rat as well?
And why didn't any of the rats mutate? ugh! now I've just ruined the entire old show for myself haha nah just kidding I don't care that much but it is odd if you really think about it.:lol:

[jenna]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

I for one believe that every creatue has a soul and that the turtles would have souls... but I remember the post by a fundamentalist Christian group (I know no religious debates here, I'm not judging or dissing) referred to them as soulless abominations or something like that because they were mutants. Well, I'm a 'mutant' too because I have red hair. (red hair is a mutated gene). So I think the argument is quite thin because I know I have a soul!

[Andrew NDB]

Something that always botherd me with the old toon mutation atleast was the fact that the turtles where not just around a human but the same rats that mutated hamato yoshi so wouldn't that mean that by the theory of the mutagen that they would not only be part human but part rat as well?
And why didn't any of the rats mutate? ugh! now I've just ruined the entire old show for myself haha nah just kidding I don't care that much but it is odd if you really think about it.:lol:

Strictly speaking of the original cartoon, it's perfectly reasonable that the Turtles weren't part rat. By the rules of the Fred Wolf Cartoon/Archie Comics, as soon as you contact the mutagen, you are mutated only into half of the last life form you came into physical contact with. The last life form the baby Turtles came into contact with was the dude that bought them... so they became humanoid Turtles -- Splinter sort of discovered them in mid-transformation, and the last person that touched him was Yoshi.

[PipingPringle]

I find it interesting that when Donnie was mutated that second time in the new toon that no one was worried that the cure for the second mutation would cure the original mutation. Or did they adress that? I can't remember.

[Swany]

I find it interesting that when Donnie was mutated that second time in the new toon that no one was worried that the cure for the second mutation would cure the original mutation. Or did they adress that? I can't remember.

Yeah, I watched that one just the other day. I think because the second mutation was pretty much like an illness it was cureable.

I think the first mutation had pretty much reached the point where its irreversable, 15 years is a long time.

Plus it was different mutagens was it not? But I dont actually know if that would be a factor. I've only done High School Biology.

[Spawn Guy]

And the fact that the turtles use the skills they were taught to unselfishly risk their lives for the safety of a society that cares nothing for them means nothing to these "Soccor Moms"?
Welcome to the society that cares nothing for them.
Although, I did find out that according to the original comc book storyline, Splinter's initial purpose in training his sons was for satisfying his vendetta against Shredder, and vendetta killings do qualify as murder, unless they happen to be done in self-defense. So, in a sense, the turtles were raised to commit a murder at some point in their life.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[triplexxx]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
What couldn't have happened to who, you mean Splinter?

[Spawn Guy]

The Shredder.

[triplexxx]

Oh, I see. And about what I said about vendetta killings, well, this one just happened to be done in self-defense, and yes you're right, he by all means deserved it, that way the turtles don't have to feel guilty about it.

[Sewer Bull]

Although, I did find out that according to the original comc book storyline, Splinter's initial purpose in training his sons was for satisfying his vendetta against Shredder, and vendetta killings do qualify as murder, unless they happen to be done in self-defense. So, in a sense, the turtles were raised to commit a murder at some point in their life.

That reminded me of my favourite TMNT comic cover. Issue #1, fifth print:

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/3869/01cover51cz.jpg

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

[Roseangelo]

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

You know, I've never thought about that cover like that before. But there's definitely truth in what you say.

I don't think I'd rank that as the best cover personally, but it's definitely a good one.

[Cascadia]

Yeah, I watched that one just the other day. I think because the second mutation was pretty much like an illness it was cureable.

I think the first mutation had pretty much reached the point where its irreversable, 15 years is a long time.

Plus it was different mutagens was it not? But I dont actually know if that would be a factor. I've only done High School Biology.

The first one was irreversible...his genes were altered and permanent from the first mutagen.. The 2nd one was like a disease in his case. DNA has the capability to restore and repair itself if it makes a mistake or something is introduced to it such as mutagens. But in Donnie's case, his DNA is a combination of the turtle DNA and whatever was in the original mutagen.

[Jester]

Strictly speaking of the original cartoon, it's perfectly reasonable that the Turtles weren't part rat. By the rules of the Fred Wolf Cartoon/Archie Comics, as soon as you contact the mutagen, you are mutated only into half of the last life form you came into physical contact with. The last life form the baby Turtles came into contact with was the dude that bought them... so they became humanoid Turtles -- Splinter sort of discovered them in mid-transformation, and the last person that touched him was Yoshi.
Yes...but....Yoshi hadn't been most recently with the rats. He cleadned of the boys. He should have almost been a 5th turtle...

[Shark_Blade]

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/3869/01cover51cz.jpg

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.
What a scary cover!:o It's like Splinter is satan from hell and he unleashed the turtles for his revenge.

[Cascadia]

I used to have that cover...it is the 5th printing of the very first issue.

[Ninjinister]

I for one believe that every creatue has a soul and that the turtles would have souls... but I remember the post by a fundamentalist Christian group (I know no religious debates here, I'm not judging or dissing) referred to them as soulless abominations or something like that because they were mutants. Well, I'm a 'mutant' too because I have red hair. (red hair is a mutated gene). So I think the argument is quite thin because I know I have a soul!

So that means I dated a mutant chick once? Hot damn!

[gobo]

They've been raised to be spiritual, haven't they? Though I can't say for certain which actual religion they abide to.

They were raised under Buddhist ideals, and Leo seems to be the strongest follower of that tradition among his brothers. The others can't adhere to the ideals of immaterialism. Donnie can't live without his gadgets. Mikey's main interest is fiction, so he might be able to suffice with only campfire stories, but television makes it all so much more convenient and rewarding. And, Raph just isn't enough of a follower to be too involved in religion. I tried to take all interpretations of the characters into account when making these analyses. So, that's how I see it. :)

[Rooish]

That reminded me of my favourite TMNT comic cover. Issue #1, fifth print:

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/3869/01cover51cz.jpg

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

Wow. I can't really justify Splinter's actions there ... raising the Turtles to risk their lives for the sake of vengeance. Creepy.

[Spawn Guy]

Well, at the time it was meant to be a parody of martial arts flicks among other things (I assume). I would hardly say Mirage Splinter was entierly motivated by revenge. He got Mike a bunch of art stuff when they were kids, let them explore an underground world when they were only twelve, and helped out that guy who was being possessed by his ancestor or something. Pretty considerate and honourable acts for someone trying to raise his own assassins. He only let them face the Shredder when he felt they were ready and they actually got the guy on the ropes, so...there you go.

[triplexxx]

They were raised under Buddhist ideals, and Leo seems to be the strongest follower of that tradition among his brothers. The others can't adhere to the ideals of immaterialism. Donnie can't live without his gadgets. Mikey's main interest is fiction, so he might be able to suffice with only campfire stories, but television makes it all so much more convenient and rewarding. And, Raph just isn't enough of a follower to be too involved in religion. I tried to take all interpretations of the characters into account when making these analyses. So, that's how I see it. :)
Well, there's more to their characters than people think. And Leonardo can be somewhat about materialism too, like the way he feels about his swords; and he's just as capable of being selfish/egotistical as his brothers.
The problem is: some people look at the turtles' stereotypical selves and just take it for granted instead of looking more into it, that's what I do.

But overall, all four of them are very spiritual (as the Lost Season proved), very unselfish/caring for others (considering how much they've all risked their lives for the safety of NYC and other places), and very loyal to their family.

[Spawn Guy]

Back on topic for a few seconds (Holy crap, I know), would the mutations really be that predictable? Ignoring the fact the script called for Splinter to be a rat, would his DNA rearrange itself logically? He probably just randomly ended up as a rat but there may be a good 50/50 chance he could have mutated into something else entirely. Also dosen't Leo say at some point that Splinter had been "Mostly" in contact with the rats? Maybe there was just a stronger DNA imprint, or whatever.

Another little theory for the pet rat incarnations: what if he was just a good mimic? He subconsciously took everything Yoshi did in without really getting it and upon mutation everything he needed to know about spirituality, focus, reason etc that would make him a capable martial artist not to mention teacher (Yoshi could have blabbed all that to him because, lets face it, it's cute to talk to your pets) came flooding to the surface. Thus he had the moves and then the know how.

[Buslady]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?


I ain't religious but damn straight they have souls. All animals do. And nobody can tell me different.

[weredog]

I ain't religious but damn straight they have souls. All animals do. And nobody can tell me different.

One of the worst moments of my life was as a kid asking my preacher if animals went to heaven. When he said no, it felt like he punched me in the gut. Luckily I learned to think for myself. Dogs are very important to me. If they weren't allowed in Heaven, they couldn't very well call it Heaven. I had to have my 16 year old Cocker Spaniel April ( and yes she was named after TMNT april ) put to sleep a couple days ago. If anyone was to tell me she wasn't in Heaven now I'm afraid I'd have to hurt them.

[Spawn Guy]

http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/19/MPW-9663
Don Bluth would never lie to us.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

awwww...True story Spawny
I don't know that I have much to add to this thread but sorry about your dog weredog

[Revan]

Wow. I can't really justify Splinter's actions there ... raising the Turtles to risk their lives for the sake of vengeance. Creepy.

ha you better believe it!

[Rooish]

I'm sorry I'm really off-topic ...

... but yeah, Neutrino, Sewer Bull ... that does put a really dark spin on TMNT, or Splinter at least, that is kind of overlooked, even in later Mirage comics.

And Leonardo even says something like, "Splinter wasn't perfect, but he was as close to it as anyone could get."

[odupianist]

Theory 2) The radioactive chemical waste of the TCRI Utroms is actually a hyper-evolution agent. When the Turtles are exposed to it, it's the equivalent to four red-earred sliders suddenly receiving millions of years of evolution.

I thought the Mutagen was part of the rearrangement of subatomic particles when tranpsorting on the Transmat. That's how I understood it. Isn't that what Mortu says in the 2k3 series?

And on the topic of the old cartoon, I thought the same thing, I just gave up trying to figure it out. While yes Yoshi spent a lot of time with the rats, he had most recently been with the turtles (wiping them off and all), so therefore (on the basis of the theory behind the OT ooze) he should have been part turtle. If Yoshi had been with the rats so much, shouldn't the turtles have been affected just a little? Wait, maybe that's how they got so nimble, picking up on some rat qualities. Who knows lol

[Scandia]

I did not interpret that cover in a malevolous way at all. I still like it a lot. But I see it as Splinter being both the teacher and the father of the TMNT. That he is proud of the sons he raised and the students he trained.

The revenge aspect may not be ideal, but it is still understandable. Splinter raised his turtles with love and taught them a lot of good things- so something good came out of it. Nobody's perfect.

I DO have serious issues with the Bushido aspect of what Leo told Shredder to do to gain his honor. I know there is such thing as cultural relativism- but according to the values of my religion, that is the worst thing a person can do. I understand that it was the way Splinter was raised and knew nothing else- but it is still something I cannot accept.

As for their having souls- well of course they do. And I cannot believe that someone was outraged and confused Buddhism with witchcraft (or worse- devil worship) and thus forbad his or her kids to watch TMNT simply because of that.

[gobo]

I DO have serious issues with the Bushido aspect of what Leo told Shredder to do to gain his honor. I know there is such thing as cultural relativism- but according to the values of my religion, that is the worst thing a person can do. I understand that it was the way Splinter was raised and knew nothing else- but it is still something I cannot accept.
Well, you see, the idea behind how they believe a warrior can regain honor by commiting seppuku is that he or she is ridding the world of the disgrace and failure that the warrior has brought upon himself and everyone who was counting on them. And, in this case, I assume having The Shredder rid the world of the evil he embodied was also another way of looking at it. In my opinion, that's slightly less dishonorable a suggestion because it isn't a selfish coward's way out of humiliation. It was more like self-imposed execution for unforgivable crimes of the distant past.

[Scandia]

Sorry, but according to my religious beliefs, that is NOT the way to go. The right thing to do is to turn your life around and atone for your past crimes- none of which are totally unforgivable. Which anyone and everyone can do. Suicide would be giving up and just stating that there is no hope for you- which is NOT true.

[Revan]

Better ease of the religion train guys.

[Andrew NDB]

Wow. I can't really justify Splinter's actions there ... raising the Turtles to risk their lives for the sake of vengeance. Creepy.

Nevertheless, this is the source material, the original universe from which all cartoons, movies and such are just spinoff universes.

[Andrew NDB]

Well, at the time it was meant to be a parody of martial arts flicks among other things (I assume). I would hardly say Mirage Splinter was entierly motivated by revenge. He got Mike a bunch of art stuff when they were kids, let them explore an underground world when they were only twelve, and helped out that guy who was being possessed by his ancestor or something. Pretty considerate and honourable acts for someone trying to raise his own assassins. He only let them face the Shredder when he felt they were ready and they actually got the guy on the ropes, so...there you go.

And it also comes up later in "City at War." I think it was Donatello that said during that, that "I could kill for Splinter... but I don't know if I'm willing to die for him" or something to that effect, as they start to kind of question their place in the world after they fulfilled their mission of killing Saki.

[odupianist]

I thought Leo said that. I dk though cause I don't have the books.

It doesn't matter what your religion beliefs are. This is what the TMNT were raised to believe.

[Cascadia]

I thought Leo said that. I dk though cause I don't have the books.

It doesn't matter what your religion beliefs are. This is what the TMNT were raised to believe.

I know that Donnie did not say that in City at War because I checked my City at War books.

[Punix]

And it also comes up later in "City at War." I think it was Donatello that said during that, that "I could kill for Splinter... but I don't know if I'm willing to die for him" or something to that effect, as they start to kind of question their place in the world after they fulfilled their mission of killing Saki.

It was Leo and he said something more like this

"I will die for splinter ,but not live for him"

[Andrew NDB]

It was Leo and he said something more like this

"I will die for splinter ,but not live for him"

Maybe that's what it was.

[Scandia]

Haven't watched/read that. But it shows some individuality on Leo's part. Maybe Raph will lay off the "Splinter Jr." for a while after hearing Leo say that.

[Spawn Guy]

Fat chance.

[Andrew NDB]

Haven't watched/read that. But it shows some individuality on Leo's part. Maybe Raph will lay off the "Splinter Jr." for a while after hearing Leo say that.

Considering Splinter died some time ago in the comics, that shouldn't be surprising, as calling Leo such posthumously would be kind of disrespectful.

[Sewer Bull]

You know, I've never thought about that cover like that before. But there's definitely truth in what you say.

I don't think I'd rank that as the best cover personally, but it's definitely a good one.

Yep, maybe there are better ones (actually, I've never done any private rank), but this one's definitely one of my top favourites.


... but yeah, Neutrino, Sewer Bull ... that does put a really dark spin on TMNT, or Splinter at least, that is kind of overlooked, even in later Mirage comics.


Well... it seems that it was pretty natural for Japanese warriors to seek revenge for everything. Especially for the previous revenges done on your family. Just look.

As #1 puts it: first off, Oroku Nagi tries to kill Yoshi's love, Shen. The one who chose Yoshi over him.

So Yoshi has to kill kim to protect his future spouse. And they have to flee to America.

So Oroku Saki, Nagi's lil' bro, has to track them down and kill both Yoshi and Shen.

So naturally, Splinter is obliged to murder Saki, with the hands of his innocent apprentices.

And then we have Karai...

The spiral of slaughter between two families continues... just like in a Shakespearian play!

[Spawn Guy]

But with better acting and stun chorography.

[gobo]

Sorry, but according to my religious beliefs, that is NOT the way to go. The right thing to do is to turn your life around and atone for your past crimes- none of which are totally unforgivable. Which anyone and everyone can do. Suicide would be giving up and just stating that there is no hope for you- which is NOT true.
I fully agree with you. I was just trying to help you understand the idealogy behind it. :)

[Swany]

Something that started bugging me last night was how the first symptons of Donnies second mutation were similar to flu.

Or did he really have the flu and his weakened immune system meant the second mutation could occur?

[Revan]

Something that started bugging me last night was how the first symptons of Donnies second mutation were similar to flu.

Or did he really have the flu and his weakened immune system meant the second mutation could occur?

They were probably just trying to show that Don was getting sick and weak. Cold/Flu symptoms are the basic universal signs of a sickness.

Hey, we don't know exactly what the symptoms of his mutation would be. For all we know, Don's symptoms were 100% spot on.

But I agree, it was silly.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

If souls exist, then the turtles would most definitely have them, considering they exhibit the same feelings and fears and so on that humans would. Even if they didn't start out human, most animals seem to exhibit a certain amount of emotion in their own way depending on the animal, so I'd say yes.

I second the feeling about going to sunday school and having someone tell you animals don't go to heaven is like a punch to the gut. If we're worthy, at the very least those adorable chimpanzees and orangutans are too. :) Plus dogs and cats would be awesome too.

[bullet]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

according to doctrine, i'm pretty sure all sentient beings have souls. if they didn't have it to begin with, they gained it through mutation...?

[Swany]

A better question for those religious fans... do they have souls?

I'd say all living creatures (yes even trees, although they are immortal) have a soul or something resembling a soul.

I dont see why humans should be the only ones.

[Cascadia]

They were probably just trying to show that Don was getting sick and weak. Cold/Flu symptoms are the basic universal signs of a sickness.

Hey, we don't know exactly what the symptoms of his mutation would be. For all we know, Don's symptoms were 100% spot on.

But I agree, it was silly.

The symptoms were illustrating that his immune system was going down hill due to the "bug bite".

[Fledermaus]

That reminded me of my favourite TMNT comic cover. Issue #1, fifth print:

http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/3869/01cover51cz.jpg

Best. TMNT. Cover. Ever. Ever.

I really like the concept of Splinter being driven with the blind lust for vengeance. And the turtles being his avenging puppets.

Whoa... sorry to dig up this post, but this cover... is... perfect.