Which Turtle lives longest, Jim Lawson, and Tales of the TMNT musings ...

[Rooish]

So I bought the Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Volume 1 Treasury Edition today. Firstly, the art inside is very very nice, in my opinion. The Turtles are short and rounded and muscular, and the people have normal proportions, and the backgrounds are detailed, and lacking in the squiggly lines Jim Lawson draws nowadays. I'm very impressed with his old work and confused about WTF happened to his art nowdays. I think it already was pretty screwy -- or at least, the people and Splinter were -- in the first issues of Laird's Volume 4. Then with all the criticism he got, I think the art quickly declined, but now he's getting better again. But it's nowhere near as good as his old style. Even though Lawson drew fast and sketchy-looking art at times in the old Tales, it's just ... so much more realistic than his stuff nowadays. Obviously his straight line work and his human art are the strongest indicators of this.

All the frontispieces (I don't know if that's the right word; I mean the first page of each Tale of the TMNT, when one of the Turtles says, "Let me tell you a story") are drawn in Lawson's new (2007) style, so I assume the old frontispieces, if they existed, were replaced. Does anyone have the original Tales of the TMNT, before they were collected in this updated edition? Did the frontispieces tell the same story when combined together, about Don using some computer to hang out with his family and revisit his past? Did the old frontispieces have the same script?

From what I gather from these new frontispieces, Don is the last one alive. This isn't directly stated, but ... well, I dunno. I'm confused. They're also visiting the gravestone of Casey Jones, and he's ... rising from the dead or something? I can't really follow the storyline. So ... when did the other Turtles die? When they're all hanging out together, Raph looks much younger than the others ... he doesn't have as many wrinkles. Does that mean that he died younger than the others? Is that canonical?

Does anyone know anything about how and when the TMNT, Casey or April die, and in what order? Because now I'm just more confused than before.

Edit: Sorry, it looks like the "Spinal Tapped" thread and Murphy's blog cover a few of my questions. But still ... I want to know if the other Turtles are dead, and why Raph doesn't age.

[Fugitoid Jones]

Sorry, can't help you on the frontispiece front. I do have nearly all of Tales vol. 1 (except issue 5), but it's been so long since I've looked at them that I can't remember what they were like. And I have no clue as to the order of aging/deaths.

I did just want to add my two cents on the Jim Lawson front. I agree with you about the decline of Jim Lawsons artwork (I'm sure there are some people who think his new stuff is great, I know they'll be posting replies soon, but oh well, we all have our different tastes). I prefer his work on Tales vol.1 and the City at War storyarc from TMNT vol.1. I just don't care much for all the squiggle lines he draws nowadays and the way he draws everybody's hands for some strange reason bothers the hell out of me.

[Rooish]

I found out the answer to one of my own questions, reading Murphy's blog: he wrote the new frontispieces and epilogue to the collected book. I find that odd. Normally Murphy is my favourite Mirage staff member. (I'm a little in love with him.) I trust TMNT in his hands more than anyone else. He's a great writer. So it seems weird that he would write those new pages. That's changing history. The original frontispieces were cool, from what I've seen, and now I can't have them ever.

There's a lot of changing of history going on, as Roseangelo could show us ... although I guess the first changes seemed rather innocent. Like, changing the spelling of Michaelangelo to Michelangelo. I really liked that name change at the time; now I'm not so sure.

Although it is nice to see that Don gets very old before dying. It's weird that Raph didn't age, much, though. Does that mean he died younger? Tales of the TMNT is part of Mirage canon, so now this thing -- old Donatello seeing his brothers in a virtual reality computer program -- is canon.

To change the subject, you know what pisses me off? How in the old Mirage comics, they often wouldn't draw the Turtles' weapons, so you wouldn't know which Turtle was which. Plus the Turtles act a bit more similar to each other in the comics (their personalities aren't stereotypes), so it's even harder to tell. It annoys me. I don't want to guess who the author intended it to be. I want to know!

Edit: Oh and regarding Jim Lawson. I know, eh? His old art was dynamic and more realistic. The hands he draws are enormous and boxy. The forearms are way too skinny on humans, and the upper arms way too muscular, and the eyes are still spaced weird, although that got better. I have not seen a single good human Jim Lawson has drawn in Volume 4.

Splinter looks pretty bad, too. The thing is, I still love the way he draws the Turtles (although upon seeing the Tales issues, I like those better) when he doesn't draw the Turtles too fast, and he is careful with the eyes. He can draw them in many angels. But everything else is ... wiggy. And the inks, typically Talbot's/Bergers (can't remember???) usually go terribly with the art. I just honestly think he could improve drastically if he tried to draw realistically again, but he probably isn't motivated to because of the $hitty work environment Mirage is nowadays. He does by far the most Mirage art, though, and I just wish it were more carefully presented. I don't want to feel embarassed for buying the Ninja Turtles comics.

[DrSpengler]

The bit with Don being old and missing his brothers was a carry over from "Old Times", a short story from Plastron Cafe #1 which showed an elderly Don weeping at the (virtual) site of his brothers. Whether they're dead or estranged isn't entirely clear in the story, just as it isn't clear in the new Tales frontispieces (as his brothers are virtual there, too).

We know from "Loops" that at least Don and Leo live to be 100, as Don gives Leo his cyber katana for his 100th birthday. If Mikey and Raph make it that far is never stated. The Tales frontispieces show Mikey and Raph at that age, but they aren't real, so we can't be sure.

[Raph's Girl]

Well the thing is that Old Leo who is over 100 years old said he's never had to deal with the death of his brothers. We're not sure how old Leo is as of yet but Don gave him the light sabre when on their 100th birthday. Heck we know Karai's still alive by 2060.

[a_big_apple]

My impression was that Don's the last one left, and his virtual brothers are replicas of them at the age they were when they died.... from what I can tell, Raph was youngest, then Mike, then Leo. They appear in backward order in the frontispieces, too, as though Don's going continually back in time in his VR simulation. I'd forgotten about old Leo saying that his brothers were still alive...but even though Raph doesn't look terribly old in the VR story, he also doesn't look extremely old in 2060--and he's probably in his 80's by then, right? So I think I'm okay with believing that Raph made it past 100, but was still the first to go.

And wow, I'm enjoying the speculation, but talking about them dying makes me so very sad.

[Buslady]

Raph doesn't age cos turtles and tortoises don't age like humans :P the average turtle's life span is about 30-40 years with exceptions of boxies and there is a red ear who's 80. Tortoises usually live 100-150 years, depending on the species. With mutation and the ability for their organs not to age , who knows how long they could live if they stayed healthy.

If and when Raph dies I hope it's an honorable death, and/or he goes out in a blaze of glory; & some how I hope he is able to leave something behind to tell of his legacy.

[Rooish]

I guess maybe you're joking, but I honestly don't think the Mirage guys care about turtle/tortoise biology as much as you do. If Raph doesn't age because he's a turtle, shouldn't the others not age either? It doesn't make any sense that he's the only one who aged.

Thinking about the Turtles' deaths makes me sad, too. But I always felt that Don would be the last one alive ... poor guy ...

[Venom]

I've often wondered about the Turtles' lifespans myself. With their mutated genetics, and given that turtles are long-lived creatures, I always thought the mutagen also enhanced their lifespan to around 500 years old. Perhaps in addition to the biological restructuring of the guys DNA also came a mutation that made the telomeres on their chromosomes burn off at an extremely slow pace, thus making them age slower and live longer.

That's why the guys look about the same in Volume 4, because wihle chronologically they may be 30-something, but biologically they are still teenagers. That also would explain why Raph looks the way he does in 2060 when he's nearing his upper 80's (if the timeline of the turtles being born around '71 still holds).

[Buslady]

I guess maybe you're joking, but I honestly don't think the Mirage guys care about turtle/tortoise biology as much as you do. If Raph doesn't age because he's a turtle, shouldn't the others not age either? It doesn't make any sense that he's the only one who aged.

Thinking about the Turtles' deaths makes me sad, too. But I always felt that Don would be the last one alive ... poor guy ...

I'm messing around that's why the :P is there

[Buslady]

I've often wondered about the Turtles' lifespans myself. With their mutated genetics, and given that turtles are long-lived creatures, I always thought the mutagen also enhanced their lifespan to around 500 years old. Perhaps in addition to the biological restructuring of the guys DNA also came a mutation that made the telomeres on their chromosomes burn off at an extremely slow pace, thus making them age slower and live longer.

That's why the guys look about the same in Volume 4, because wihle chronologically they may be 30-something, but biologically they are still teenagers. That also would explain why Raph looks the way he does in 2060 when he's nearing his upper 80's (if the timeline of the turtles being born around '71 still holds).

A 30 year old turtle is not biologically teen. If you reallly wanna get into it...

a 3 year old turtle is biologically teen, males mature even at a couple years old but cannot make babies. a 5 year old is more than capable. Believe me I raised 4 baby turtles. The two boys....*faints* those Yaoi stories aren't far off....
IMO, a mutant turtle of 35 is like a young man of 21. they're still young but not teens.


i love pointless topics....

[Scandia]

To change the subject, you know what pisses me off? How in the old Mirage comics, they often wouldn't draw the Turtles' weapons, so you wouldn't know which Turtle was which. Plus the Turtles act a bit more similar to each other in the comics (their personalities aren't stereotypes), so it's even harder to tell. It annoys me. I don't want to guess who the author intended it to be. I want to know!


When it comes to this, the OT is an IMPROVEMENT. I am so glad that the differences initiated by the OT have been followed in all other subsequent universes. I like the fact that each Turtle has individuality.

[Rooish]

When it comes to this, the OT is an IMPROVEMENT. I am so glad that the differences initiated by the OT have been followed in all other subsequent universes. I like the fact that each Turtle has individuality.

Yeah, I agree. I hate not being able to tell who's who. Maybe it allows the reader to interpret characters the way (s)he wants, but half the time, because I'm a Mike fan, I'm like, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if Mike actually got that line; he's so overlooked in Mirage" but there's NO WAY OF KNOWING, because before Raph got all grumpy, he and Mike acted basically the same! I assume anytime one of the Turtles is talking to April etc. about serious things, it's Leo, although sometimes even he loses his scabbards and katana from panel to panel. Don has a very unique personality comparitively, and I can usually tell that it's him, but not always.

Another question: is April black originally, or something? In the Tales issues she has big black curly hair, and her skin is shaded much darker than Renet's.

Well the thing is that Old Leo who is over 100 years old said he's never had to deal with the death of his brothers.

Did he actually say that? Or did he just not say he'd ever dealt with the deaths of his brothers? I don't remember that from the Loops issues at all. All I remember is that he and Donatello both made it to 100.

When exactly were the Turtles born? If we go by the original comics, they started out at fifteen, right? Or thirteen? If it was fifteen ... that was in 1984; they were born in 1969. Raph is still alive in 2060, but in Don's new frontispiece story, he looks like he's aged quite a bit more than 91-year-old Raph. (Shouldn't Karai have been very dead by that time?)

The fact of the matter is, the Turtles' lifespans were obviously extended by the mutagen because Splinter's was. No one knows how old Splinter is; the timeline has never been worked out very well. But rats live, what, like four years tops? I can see the Turtles naturally living to 500, too. It is weird about how old and emaciated Leo and Don and Mike look in the Tales frontispieces, seeing as real turtles do not age physcially past puberty (is this true? I heard their organs don't break down. Buslady?). Turtles only die, I have heard, from external causes.

I don't really see how the Turtles, who face so many risks every day, could ever just die of old age, especially the more warrior-like Leo and Raph. I assume they must end up getting killed someday (which sucks).

Which all still doesn't explain why Casey Jones is rising from the dead in the new Tales Volume 1 frontispieces. ;)

[Scandia]

The world record for rat longevity was 8 years.

Red eared sliders live around 30 years on average.

Red foxes, like most other canines, live around 12 years. So while sliders do live longer than foxes, what Raphael said in Archie about turtles living longer than mammals is not completely accurate otherwise. Elephants, chimpanzees, horses, whales, and of course humans do live longer than red-eared sliders on average.

To say that the Mirage timeline is confusing is an understatement. 2k3 cleaned things up so well.

[Andrew NDB]

The original frontispieces were cool, from what I've seen, and now I can't have them ever.

That's crazy. Just go out and buy the original Tales comics or the original TPB and don't buy the new one. Or buy both, and mix and match pages to suit your personal likings.

And Red-Earred Sliders live to an average of 30 years? I'd heard a bit lower... about 20-25 years in captivity, I think is about right.

And alligator snapping turtles can live to 200. Not sure on commons.

[Spitfire]

I bagged a set of all 7 of these for 30 on EBay so keep looking, it's worth it. I'd rather not have a book with a cover that looks like puke and crappy art in between pages of good art.

[Raph's Girl]

Yea.. Raph said in Archie that he and his brothers would live for 400 years.

I just re-read Tales 14 and it seems I was mistaken. Old Leo said "Nobody can cheat death, not even a turtle. As Far As I know anyway"...and in the background you can see several tombstones (didn't notice those when I read it originally). 2 Tombstones are shown so perhaps Leo and Don are really the only ones left?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/Dierna/OldLeo.jpg

But the RPG shows an old Raph training younger mutant turtles.

Who knows how long the turtles will live. IMO it's still up in the air.

and by 2060 the turtles would be nearly 100. They're in their mid 30's comic time. Born roughly around 1968/1969. Raph looked pretty good for his age.

[Venom]

The Turtles were thirteen in the first comic. 1984 - 13 = 1971

So the guys were born sometime in '71.

They should have lifespans that have been greatly extended due to their mutations. Take Splinter for example: he was well into his thirties when he died. When was that anyway, 2003? Anyway, even if you use that year and subtract it from '71 you get 32, and if he was three or four when he found the Turtles then he was in his upper-thirties. And a rat lives to be what, 7-8? So if someone good at math figures up how much longer he lived due to his mutation then we can have a rough estimate of how long the Turtles can expect to live.

Whoa...talking all serious about the Turtles like this makes me realize just how much of a geek I am. Oh well. :tgrin:

[Rooish]

The Turtles were thirteen in the first comic. 1984 - 13 = 1971

So the guys were born sometime in '71.

They should have lifespans that have been greatly extended due to their mutations. Take Splinter for example: he was well into his thirties when he died. When was that anyway, 2003? Anyway, even if you use that year and subtract it from '71 you get 32, and if he was three or four when he found the Turtles then he was in his upper-thirties. And a rat lives to be what, 7-8? So if someone good at math figures up how much longer he lived due to his mutation then we can have a rough estimate of how long the Turtles can expect to live.

Whoa...talking all serious about the Turtles like this makes me realize just how much of a geek I am. Oh well. :tgrin:

Thanks, I forgot they were thirteen. Wow! That's young. They never acted like teenagers. More like early twenties.

Okay, from the figures ... pet rats usually live to be about three or four. Of course the record is much longer ... about seven years I think. We don't know when Splinter mutated but if he was about three in 1971, and if he died in 2003, then yeah, he died at about thirty-five. So he lived ... ten times longer than a normal rat, and he was at least an adult rat when he mutated! The turtles were only babies. And wild red-eared sliders survive about 20-40 years (correct me if I'm wrong?). So we could easily expect them to live over 200 to 400 years.

Bitchin'.

Edit: Yeah, I'm a huge geek too. Like, way worse than you. No worries. ;)

[Rooish]

That's crazy. Just go out and buy the original Tales comics or the original TPB and don't buy the new one. Or buy both, and mix and match pages to suit your personal likings.

I did buy the new one and I would buy the old ones, too, if I could find them in my effing city! Maybe I can order them online ... I'm just venting. Perhaps some lovely person could scan the original Tales frontispieces?

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

So there have been other future turtles stories? I just picked up last month's issue of Tales and I wasn't sure.

I've enjoyed the Tales TPB.

[Venom]

Try Ebay, Rooish. This year alone I amassed quite a bit of my volume 1 collection with Ebay and didn't spend a tremendous amount of money, either.

My advice: stay persistant with looking and buy collections when you can. It may take several weeks of waiting for the right one to come along with a decent price for shipping, but it will happen. The last lot I got on Ebay was Tales vol. 1 1-5, Gobbledygook, Fugitoid, and a couple others that slip my mind at the moment. The only single book I bought was ShellShock, *very* nice copy, and that would have been $10 bucks cheaper had someone not tried to snipe it from me at the last moment (went from $21 to $31 in the last minute!).