TMNT #5 full preview/review!

[CyberCubed]

http://www.freakinawesomenetwork.com/2011/12/comic-preview-tmnt-5-from-idw-publishing/

The first 6 pages posted as a preview, absolutely awesome!

First mention of Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki, and they appear to exist way back in Feudal Japan. It also appears that Hamato Yoshi has 4 human sons.

I am officially excited! Thank you, Tom Waltz!

[TomWaltz]

I can't wait for everyone to read the issue -- the artwork by all involved is superb! Here's another preview link with an added page. Lots of surprises coming...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/76107777/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-5-Preview

Take care, my friends!

Tom W.

[Andrew NDB]

So far so good. I dig.

[CyberCubed]

Man, that extra page was really good too.

Interesting how Saki has a scar on his eye. Almost reminds me of the first movie.

[TomWaltz]

So far so good. I dig.

Ha! Thought you might like the sword-killin' goodness, Andrew!

:tgrin:

[Slap-Happy]

Looks pretty good. Can't wait to read the issue.

EDIT: Tom, can you tell me about the writing process? Do you and kevin create the story together, and one of you fleshes out the details like dialogue?

[Matches Malone]

Looks quite good! I'm really liking Santolouco's artwork a lot. I'm pretty surprised at the Feudal Japan setting, but the more I think I about it, the more I like the idea that Yoshi and Saki's rivalry and legacy spans centuries. Still, I'm really hoping the turtles were not humans in previous lives... It really takes away from the mutant outcast element, I think. I'm more forgiving of Splinter being Yoshi previously, but it's not my preference either. Splinter could be referring to himself as Yoshi in the third person or he really could be a separate person. Can't wait another day to read this!

[Venom]

I like seeing the feudal versions of the Shredder Elite. :cool:

I'm okay with the Turtles and Splinter being reincarnated, but Saki existing centuries ago as well makes me wonder if he'll either A) be a mutant or B) immortal/long-lived due to some supernatural element.

Also digging the little allusions to the Shredder.

Having the Shredder being a mantle passed down through the generations is fine, but having the original be Saki is key. Please don't make IDW's Shredder a robot, a cyborg, a demon, or an alien. Part of the coolness factor for him is the fact that he's this brilliant, power-hungry rogue ninja.

[Andrew NDB]

Looks quite good! I'm really liking Santolouco's artwork a lot. I'm pretty surprised at the Feudal Japan setting, but the more I think I about it, the more I like the idea that Yoshi and Saki's rivalry and legacy spans centuries.

I dig the Yoshi side of things but the Saki thing makes me nervous. As it's unlikely that the present day would be without an Oroku Saki of some sort -- and here he is in Feudal times -- this makes me nervous that he's going to turn out to be some kind of Utrom or other some other kind of science fiction oddity to have survived that long.

Having the Shredder being a mantle passed down through the generations is fine, but having the original be Saki is key. Please don't make IDW's Shredder a robot, a cyborg, a demon, or an alien. Part of the coolness factor for him is the fact that he's this brilliant, power-hungry rogue ninja.

Yes, that's well put actually.

[TomWaltz]

I dig the Yoshi side of things but the Saki thing makes me nervous. As it's unlikely that the present day would be without an Oroku Saki of some sort -- and here he is in Feudal times -- this makes me nervous that he's going to turn out to be some kind of Utrom or other some other kind of science fiction oddity to have survived that long.

Don't worry... be happy.

[Matches Malone]

I dig the Yoshi side of things but the Saki thing makes me nervous. As it's unlikely that the present day would be without an Oroku Saki of some sort -- and here he is in Feudal times -- this makes me nervous that he's going to turn out to be some kind of Utrom or other some other kind of science fiction oddity to have survived that long.

Perhaps the Shredder will be a descendant of Oroku Saki? This would further mirror the family aspect of TMNT. Two legacies of ninja clans. I could dig that.

Man, Tom really loves watching us squirm! Maybe he should've become a dentist instead!

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, I immediately thought of the 4kids Shredder too. I mean Oroku Saki existed in Feudal Japan in that cartoon, then he merged himself with a demon and became immortal.

Then Ch'rell crash landed on Earth with the other Utroms and he took over Shredder's/Oroku Saki's identity. So Ch'rell also existed from Feudal Japan to the modern day.

But I am sure IDW's Shredder isn't an Utrom or demon, that would be re-treading old ground. I don't mind the idea of Saki either being:

- reincarnated
- The Oroku Saki in the modern day is the descendent of this Feudal Oroku Saki
- Immortal, but being human
- Although this is the least likely, time travel.

Either way I can't wait.

[TomWaltz]

Perhaps the Shredder will be a descendant of Oroku Saki? This would further mirror the family aspect of TMNT. Two legacies of ninja clans. I could dig that.

Man, Tom really loves watching us squirm! Maybe he should've become a dentist instead!

Open up and say, AHHHHHHHHHH!!!

[Andrew NDB]

Ha! Thought you might like the sword-killin' goodness, Andrew!

:tgrin:

It's an encouraging sign. :)

[Hermano Dyvas]

Awesome preview Tom, digging the action with Splinter, loving the feudal Japan setting, if the rest of the issue is just as exciting this might just be one for the ages!

[Grimlock]

Wow, loved the preview. And I really love the way Hamato Yoshi and Saki look. They got that Samurai/ninja look. So badass.

[CyberCubed]

Wow, loved the preview. And I really love the way Hamato Yoshi and Saki look. They got that Samurai/ninja look. So badass.

They should, they existed nearly 500 years ago or whatever it is.

[Raph's Girl]

Fascinating take!!! Me Likey!! So in a past life the turtles were the biological sons of Yoshi!! Awesome!! Splinter seems to remember much of his past life but the turtles, for now, only remember SOME of that life. Gonna be interesting once they remember their life in feudal Japan. Im a full believer in reincarnation so this new spin is totally awesome in my book. :D

[oldschoolturtlesfan]

Awesome story and art so for!!! I like where this is going and as of right now they still have all red bandannas. :D

[CyberCubed]

Awesome story and art so for!!! I like where this is going and as of right now they still have all red bandannas. :D

For the first few pages at least. :)

[oldmanwinters]

I am SO intrigued! I'm gonna hate having to wait a few weeks to pick this one up. This is actually one issue where I'm tempted to by both covers A & B. I really with IDW had done a fold-out cover with both images on it!

[AquaParade]

Great preview. I'm highly anticipating this issue. The flashback sequences looked great! Definitely wouldn't mind seeing more from that artist.

[Donnie]

Wow, this is the best preview we've gotten to date! So intriguing, keeps you at the edge of your seat, and I can't wait to see what the present day connection is to Splinter/Yoshi/Saki/The Foot.

I love the sword killing. :D

As for the colored bandanas, they're definitely coming - and I have a sneaking suspicion that the gifts Splinter mentioned Yoshi was giving his sons...have something to do with the significance of the colors.

[CyberCubed]

You know I wonder if we'll see normal rat Splinter owned by Yoshi in this issue. I know it would be odd for Splinter to also exist in Feudal Japan pre-mutation, but who knows.

That being said, if Yoshi's soul somehow lives on in Splinter's body, then I guess that would explain his intelligence pre-mutation.

I guess we'll see.

[Toby Barrett]

I had a thought that made the colors blue, purple, red, and orange meant something to Hamato Yoshi's sons in their past life. The reason Leo, Don, and Mike have all been wearing red this entire time was in memory of Raph?

Just a thought.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

Really really looking forward to this one. Three cover variants is more realistic than five or nineteen.

[CyberCubed]

I was expecting them to cut down on the varients soon anyway. It can only drive up sales for so long.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I was expecting them to cut down on the varients soon anyway. It can only drive up sales for so long.

I was thinking I had seen other variant covers for this one, but maybe I dreamed that?

[Venom]

I was thinking I had seen other variant covers for this one, but maybe I dreamed that?

You may have seen Rich's composite image showing how the 2 covers mirror each other and thought it was a variant?

[Utromshredderhater]

So from what I gather Splinter and the Turtles are Yoshi and his sons reincarnated

[Slap-Happy]

So from what I gather Splinter and the Turtles are Yoshi and his sons reincarnated
I'm pretty sure everybody has figured that out by now.

[Andrew NDB]

So from what I gather Splinter and the Turtles are Yoshi and his sons reincarnated

Even if that's true, that creates a lot of coincidences and contrivances.

OK, let's play Devil's advocate and assume it's exactly what it seems like based on existing evidence -- Hamato Yoshi is reincarnated in 2010 or whatever as Splinter (an otherwise normal rat) in New York City. Splinter is bought/abducted by Baxter Stockman's people, exposed to the psychotropic drug which enables him to become conscious of his former life.

OK, that part makes sense and seems feasible enough... it asks us to believe in reincarnation (controversial), but that seems pretty low on the totem pole of "things you have to believe" in terms of the Ninja Turtles universe. I can buy that.

The next part of things, however, also asks us to swallow that simply by dumb luck/chance/sheer happenstance the four reincarnated sons of Hamato Yoshi ALSO just happened to be also in New York City... right there, what would be odds? But there would be MORE -- not only would they be in NYC with their reincarnated father, but ALSO they get bought/abducted by the same scientist, Baxter Stockman and taken to the same facility subjected to similar experiments.

At that point, it becomes a little contrived.

Though all of the above was my original theory, I think it's something else. I'm just not entirely sure what. At first I was thinking Yoshi and Sons -- as humans -- were captured by Oroku Saki, mutated into normal turtles and a rat, then sent off to Baxter as a kind of punishment... but the revelation today that Yoshi and Sons and Oroku Saki all had their heyday in Feudal Japan, this theory kind of has to go out the window as well.

Whatever the "true" story is we'll figure out tomorrow, I suspect -- and I think logic dictates, assuming a minimum of contrivances -- that Oroku Saki in the past and Oroku Saki in the present is the key. I'm positive there will be an Oroku Saki in the present that is the Shredder, and it would not be a different Oroku Saki in the past... they're one and the same, and it's just a question of how this is.

My working theory, which I'm not really in love with: Oroku Saki is (secretly) an Utrom, with Utrom technology in Feudal Japan. After the events of the preview we see "Saki" take action against Yoshi and his sons, having his men kidnap the whole lot of them. Behind closed doors, Saki somehow changes them into turtles and a rat, and puts them into some kind of stasis until present day. Alternately, he somehow transfers theirs minds into normal turtles and a rat and discards of their old bodies like husks.

IF the reincarnation theory is true, and Yoshi and his sons were just somehow, inexplicably destined to reunite against all odds in their new bodies in 2010 New York (if true, I would just hope it's made to seem not so much of a contrivance)... then I would bet the guy that had his face scratched by Splinter in #1 either has been exposed to the same psychotropic drug as Splinter or has clairvoyance enough to also realize that he himself is the reincarnation of Oroku Saki.

[CyberCubed]

This is making my head spin. #5 can't come out soon enough.

[Metropoliskid41]

Even if that's true, that creates a lot of coincidences and contrivances.

OK, let's play Devil's advocate and assume it's exactly what it seems like based on existing evidence -- Hamato Yoshi is reincarnated in 2010 or whatever as Splinter (an otherwise normal rat) in New York City. Splinter is bought/abducted by Baxter Stockman's people, exposed to the psychotropic drug which enables him to become conscious of his former life.

OK, that part makes sense and seems feasible enough... it asks us to believe in reincarnation (controversial), but that seems pretty low on the totem pole of "things you have to believe" in terms of the Ninja Turtles universe. I can buy that.

The next part of things, however, also asks us to swallow that simply by dumb luck/chance/sheer happenstance the four reincarnated sons of Hamato Yoshi ALSO just happened to be also in New York City... right there, what would be odds? But there would be MORE -- not only would they be in NYC with their reincarnated father, but ALSO they get bought/abducted by the same scientist, Baxter Stockman and taken to the same facility subjected to similar experiments.

At that point, it becomes a little contrived.

Though all of the above was my original theory, I think it's something else. I'm just not entirely sure what. At first I was thinking Yoshi and Sons -- as humans -- were captured by Oroku Saki, mutated into normal turtles and a rat, then sent off to Baxter as a kind of punishment... but the revelation today that Yoshi and Sons and Oroku Saki all had their heyday in Feudal Japan, this theory kind of has to go out the window as well.

Whatever the "true" story is we'll figure out tomorrow, I suspect -- and I think logic dictates, assuming a minimum of contrivances -- that Oroku Saki in the past and Oroku Saki in the present is the key. I'm positive there will be an Oroku Saki in the present that is the Shredder, and it would not be a different Oroku Saki in the past... they're one and the same, and it's just a question of how this is.

My working theory, which I'm not really in love with: Oroku Saki is (secretly) an Utrom, with Utrom technology in Feudal Japan. After the events of the preview we see "Saki" take action against Yoshi and his sons, having his men kidnap the whole lot of them. Behind closed doors, Saki somehow changes them into turtles and a rat, and puts them into some kind of stasis until present day. Alternately, he somehow transfers theirs minds into normal turtles and a rat and discards of their old bodies like husks.

IF the reincarnation theory is true, and Yoshi and his sons were just somehow, inexplicably destined to reunite against all odds in their new bodies in 2010 New York (if true, I would just hope it's made to seem not so much of a contrivance)... then I would bet the guy that had his face scratched by Splinter in #1 either has been exposed to the same psychotropic drug as Splinter or has clairvoyance enough to also realize that he himself is the reincarnation of Oroku Saki.


Just read #5...and wow that was awesome. I don't want to get into it just yet, I don't want to spoil anything until people get a chance to read it. But to answer your concerns, I don't think that is a stretch at all. One could argue that they didn't truly become the reincarnated versions of Yoshi and his sons until they were exposed to the ooze. Even if you don't want to believe that you can believe that to be re-incarnated as turtles and a rat at all, there is obviously a larger force at work, God, reincarnating these men from feudal Japan into present. I don't see how them being reincarnated into forms that are fated to meet is a stretch at all. If an all powerful being was going to re-incarnate them, it only make sense that he would choose 5 hosts that would definitely cross paths. Not a stretch at all for me at least. :tcool:

[Weapons@theready]

so i take it that the Time Slip Generator isn't involved:D

[TobTurn]

Wow, I'm getting flashbacks to the '03 series watching these. 'The master will not accept failure' and 'Keep searching!' Digging the feeling and atmosphere in these comics. Call me a fanboy, call me an idiot, but to me it feels like an '03 episode :p

Edit: I like Utrom Shredder, but I hope this one is just human. Just read those other pages.

[Metropoliskid41]

so i take it that the Time Slip Generator isn't involved:D

Haha no the Time Slip Generator is definitely not involved :trazz:

[DrSpengler]

Here's my review at TMNT Entity. (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2011/12/tmnt-idw-5.html)

Whew, that was a trip. A lot I liked about it, though I did feel that in such a massive change we lost a few important elements along the way. It's definitely a matter of "wait and see", but I'm not put off by the new origin and dig quite a bit of it.

It was very well executed and the, uh, execution scene was really tastefully done. My applause, IDW Turtle Team.

[Andrew NDB]

The past life stuff sounds poignant... but the big rainbow bandanna thing is really just Splinter coming up to them and going, "Hey, I just suddenly realized you guys are individuals so here's some new bandannas based on your favorite colors"? I'm asking, because I haven't read it yet. That bit sounds... very underwhelming and doesn't make a good case for much in the way of the necessity of it (beyond, "Here, my sons, make your fashion statements with these!" ... what?)

Though again, I haven't read it yet so we'll see.

[longbowhunter]

At that point, it becomes a little contrived.


Dude...its A COMIC BOOK!!!! About a talking rat and 4 turtles trained in the martial arts. Reality and continuity are nice when they work out,but I'm not gonna sweat it if all the details dont line up. Call it fate. Call it destiny. Call it whatever you have to to enjoy the story. Just dont forget to call me and tell me when the next issue hits! (speaking of which,the Mikey issue is still shipping next week right? Oh man,I hope we get to see Klunk....)

[Andrew NDB]

Dude...its A COMIC BOOK!!!! About a talking rat and 4 turtles trained in the martial arts.

I love how this is like a mantra that can be used in any sentence, to counter any argument, anytime when debating about seemingly anything with the TMNT.

And is. Often. I say it's a cop-out.

Oh man,I hope we get to see Klunk

If there is no Klunk in IDW TMNT, then it will forever be TINO -- Turtles In Name Only.

But seriously yes, I would like Klunk.

[ToTheNines]

The past life stuff sounds poignant... but the big rainbow bandanna thing is really just Splinter coming up to them and going, "Hey, I just suddenly realized you guys are individuals so here's some new bandannas based on your favorite colors"? I'm asking, because I haven't read it yet. That bit sounds... very underwhelming and doesn't make a good case for much in the way of the necessity of it (beyond, "Here, my sons, make your fashion statements with these!" ... what?)

Though again, I haven't read it yet so we'll see.

It's halfway decent actually.

He gives them their individual headbands as a Christmas gift (Raph gets his sais). The reason they were wearing red in the first place was in honor of their lost brother.

You know. The red one.

[Candy Kappa]

What if it turns out that the turtles are not Yoshi's sons?

[TomWaltz]

"Here, my sons, make your fashion statements with these!" ... what?)

Fashionistas become Fashioninjas, baby!


http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID15166/images/reservoir-turtles1.jpg

[scar1321]

Wow, that was a great issue! So far this series is probably my favorite I'm reading right now!

[Barkworm]

All TMNT origin stories so far have been illogical/non-sensical/stupid. This definitely seems like the most sophisticated one.

[Vegeta]

Holy hell, great issue. When I saw the 4 children I had a brief eyeroll moment but that was changed as I read on due to the great storytelling and art. So excited for the next issue. I know many fans were probably bummed over the rainbow color bandannas but I thought they handled it well. Fun issue, also love that resevoir turtles pic :tsmile:

Offtopic, Barkworm awesome avatar. BB is the greatest show ever.

[Redeemer]

I usually dont like issues like this, that arent on on point or on topic, but damn this was a good issue and I cant wait for the Mikey one-shot


Oh and for all those who say the origin is stupid and illogical here is my theory

The utroms were there when Yoshi and his sons were being attacked and transfered their minds into the animals body or maybe krang did it. IDK its jst a theory and explains alot

[Andrew NDB]

What if it turns out that the turtles are not Yoshi's sons?

That'd be an interesting twist. More time goes on, they keep remembering "more" of their previous lives, their ninja training and all that... but then it turns out it's really just been Splinter pushing/imprinting the idea of them being his sons on them out of a hope for that to be true and they were, in fact, just random ninja or samurai in their past lives.

The utroms were there when Yoshi and his sons were being attacked and transfered their minds into the animals body or maybe krang did it. IDK its jst a theory and explains alot

You would have to then add a part about "... and then the Utroms or Krang put them in stasis for 500 years for some weird reason" which is where the theory becomes pretty hairy.

[DrSpengler]

My review was kinda lost at the end of the previous page, but I just wanna let Tom know he did an excellent job the script for this issue.

SEE!? I CAN say nice things!!!

[oldmanwinters]

SEE!? I CAN say nice things!!!

Well, it is Christmas, isn't it? Even ol' Scrooge could have a change of heart for the holiday season!

[MattLawrence]

keep up the good work Tom !

[TomWaltz]

Thanks for the kind words, everyone! I know we threw a lot at you this issue, but trust me, we're just getting started...

:o

Happy Holidays!

Tom W.

[Metropoliskid41]

Thanks Tom!! And a happy holidays to you and yours! Can't wait for the Mikey issue next week!

[joe-eyeball]

I must admit that through the first four issues with the Raph issue included I became seriously concerned with the direction this series was heading. I just did not enjoy really anything about those books. But #5 has caused me to do a complete 180 on the series. Its not a perfect issue but it is pretty damn good. For the first time I now find myself chomping at the bit to read the book. The back round given to us through Splinter's narrative and the art was fantastic. Even the explanation of why they wear colored bandanas was pretty thoughtful and effective. GREAT JOB to Tom and the Guys. Thank You for finally coming through with a truly awesome issue and I am now looking forward to what comes next.

[Powder]

I usually dont like issues like this, that arent on on point or on topic

How was it not either? Ridiculous.

Again I loved it, art especially. It's a pleasure to final see Shredder as what he's always been based on design wise- a samurai. Badass.
Love that the uber traditional look of the foot, too. The 4 sons reincarnation/revenge thing is an origin I can get into but the color coding... not as much. I do think that of any reason to switch it's an OK one at best, but it felt so forced. I guess it's just hard to justify that no matter how you look at it, I'll give ya credit for trying your best to not have it be so "here it is, for the kids!" though. I will say however that I think the reason they wore red was fantastic. To honor their lost brother. THAT was very cool. What came after though, eh. It could be worse I suppose but like, if they're reincarnations of those sons, they're not honoring lost souls they're honoring themselves... Seems kinda strange. Besides, after thousands of years a fella might change his favorite color. In addition to the "purpose" behind that change, I like how you guys are setting things up for April & Casey to meet. I've never been big on the "me wanna rumble wit da boys" April, but if you have to go that route you're doing it well enough. It at least serves the use of her meeting Casey (And sub sequentially the turtles, I suppose).
At any rate, I still love where this is all going and I love you IDW folks.


Also, I thought it possible from day one but even moreso now; Old Hobb = Shredder. Pretty sure I said that in some other thread but if not, there you go. Totally could be the case. I guess it's more likely that he's not, but if he is you won't be able to color me surprised.

[TomWaltz]

Again, thanks, everyone! And, I promise, there is still a lot of mystery/secrets to be uncovered, even the circumstances behind Casey and April's impending involvement in future issues/arcs.

Oh, and we'll be transforming the TMNT back to humans eventually. Attaching a preview pic to this post.




(I kid, I kid.)

[Metropoliskid41]

Again, thanks, everyone! And, I promise, there is still a lot of mystery/secrets to be uncovered, even the circumstances behind Casey and April's impending involvement in future issues/arcs.

Oh, and we'll be transforming the TMNT back to humans eventually. Attaching a preview pic to this post.




(I kid, I kid.)

:tlol::tlol::tlol:that was great :tgrin:

[TomWaltz]

:tlol::tlol::tlol:that was great :tgrin:

Thanks. To be honest, I wasn't kidding about turning 'em back to humans -- that'll happen. It'll be the gender that's gonna surprise folks (see attached).

:tlol:

[Redeemer]

How was it not either? Ridiculous.

Sorry Powder I didnt phrase that right. What I ment is I dont like stories that focus on the past of a character. I usually only like stories that focus on the present that have clear relevance of the plot.

Basically I dont like a story that focuses on a character past that has little action, but this issue was able to explain a lot and give a lot of action at the same time. which was pleasently surprising

two thumbs up to u Tom and Your crew :tthumbsu::tthumbsu: I didnt think I would like this story but I did.

[mysterycolor]

favorite issue, by far :)

[Abnormal Freak]

Loved it until the multi-colored bandannas were brought into the picture. It won't ruin the comic for me...but it does lessen my enjoyment a smidgen, and the reasoning was supremely half-assed and just a bogus way to bring in the familiar colors. Not like any other reasoning could've been better... The idea sucks, period. :p And what a $#!77¥ gift that would be. "Here's your Froot Loops-colored piece of cloth, my sons. The red was just to remind you of Raph, even though you didn't know red was his favorite color."

[Master Splinter]

Loved it until the multi-colored bandannas were brought into the picture. It won't ruin the comic for me...but it does lessen my enjoyment a smidgen.

What if this is an opportunity for them to wear different bandannas throughout their life. Like maybe one story will have them all wearing black, or one where they are all wearing blue searching for Leo. Anyways, I like how the story is being told and have no interest in canceling. Oh and I had a letter printed. Good stuff.

-ms

[ToTheNines]

In addition to the "purpose" behind that change, I like how you guys are setting things up for April & Casey to meet. I've never been big on the "me wanna rumble wit da boys" April, but if you have to go that route you're doing it well enough.

I'm glad you brought that up, I dug that too.

Ya know, I'm pretty sure the reason April wants self defense lessons isn't just to fight, but because she's totally freaked out by the ninja attack and feels helpless. So I think they set that up perfectly.

[AquaParade]

Best issue by far. Tom, you and your team have won me over!
Should have been issue #1 :P

There's a bit of fear, on my part, due to some of these drastic changes to a formula I love, but it doesn't keep me from enjoying the book. Tom, I only hope that you keep them mutated and turtle...-d

[Andrew NDB]

OK, I've read it. This one definitely deserves a big write-up, so I'll save my bigger thoughts on this issue for that, but I want to touch on the colored bandanna issue for now:

It's creatively presented and is compatible within the context of the story and the universe that IDW is/has created, but the issue in question works in spite of it, not as a result of it or in any way bolstered by it. If this was anything other than a ninja clan we are supposed to take seriously there wouldn't be any problem with it at all... unfortunately, though, it is and they are. And treating the bestowing of the Turtles with the different colored bandannas as some kind of an evolution of their clan and worth within it is fallacy when it is anything but and, in fact, a painful representation of the McTMNT™ days and a color coding that was only ever implemented to sell toys... for shame. If there was an air-tight case as to why the IDW TMNT needs the different colored bandannas, it wasn't made here.

The only way I could see it settling with me long term is if, like the "all-red bandanna days" of the IDW TMNT are treated as one era (the first era, if you will), that the "different-colored bandanna days" we now arrive at are treated as only a second era... as a stepping stone to a third era where they again share a unified color (i.e., black or white, or something). Maybe when they've completed all of their training/memory restoration of their old lives or something.

*edit: It's kind of ironic -- in a sad way -- that the very panel where they first put on the colored bandannas, Michelangelo says, "Heck to the yeah!" How fitting that the moment they adorn themselves with the McTMNT™ bandannas they have to censor themselves, but really... If not a proper "hell," (a word acceptable in moderation in PG, let alone PG-13-rated material) would it be too much to ask to either, 1) Not have any Turtle say "heck." Ever. Or, 2) Just use symbols like ?!@#!? instead of the word?

Whatever they do, I can't think of something much worse or something more unabashedly emo or metrosexual to see than arriving at a status quo like this:

What if this is an opportunity for them to wear different bandannas throughout their life. Like maybe one story will have them all wearing black, or one where they are all wearing blue searching for Leo.

[Andrew NDB]

A couple more things: bandanna issue aside, the issue was amazing. It was the best issue of TMNT yet and completely validated all the good faith I've felt in what has been done with the overall direction and this new origin so far. It had equal parts badassery as it did heart, and it had payoff.

I'm a big Highlander fan so of course I can appreciate and love big sweeping flashbacks like the ones taking center stage in this, and iconically, can you imagine seeing this kind of origin on the big screen? It would be awesome, just awesome. There's a certain marquee value and power to what the focus is becoming clear as: In Feudal Japan, their family was murdered 400 years ago by Oroku Saki... now, in 2011, their family will have another chance to settle the score! I can hear that being a voiceover in a pulse-pounding teaser trailer.

I mean, damn, I'm sold. It succeeds at making things even more personal than any TMNT origin to date including the source material's and raising the stakes tenfold. It's no longer, "Let's avenge the death of our sensei's master and his sensei's master's wife because he says so," it's "Sh*t, man, let's avenge the death of ourselves and our father -- plus our mother."

The making official the "kill only when there's no other choice thing" is more than a little dodgy if they're supposed to be ninja (and "pacifist ninja" remains an oxymoron), which hurts credibility that was already strained only a page before it with them now being a clan going quite colorful. Now, I can live with the "kill only when there's no other choice" if they actually keep true to that... if there's two ninjas coming at Leonardo and it's kill or be killed, I don't want to see nonsense like him throwing shuriken at chandeliers to fall on them and knock them unconscious, he better be doing what he needs to do and using those swords, you know?

More to come.

[ToTheNines]

Oh sh*t, it's crazy theory time.

Alright, so as long as we're all going to conform to the idea that Splinter here is a reincarnated Hamato Yoshi... can we buy into the idea the when the fates intervened, they gave Splinter infinite chances at his revenge?

What I'm thinking is that perhaps every Splinter in every TMNT universe is a reincarnated Hamato Yoshi and every set of turtles is a reincarnated set of his sons, and they're destined to spend each of their new lives to battling Shredder.

I haven't looked into Buddhist reincarnation theories or anything like that, but maybe this IDW Splinter has been reincarnated so many times that he is now cognizant of his past lives, or at least his first one.

Still some holes to fill in here, but I think something like this might be a cool way to really plug this new book into the TMNT multi-verse.

[Powder]

If that were the case, TMNT & Zelda would be quite the similar series. Being I have tattoos representing them both, I wouldn't complain.
:trazz:

[Venom]

I feel the perfect way to have wrapped the issue would have been if Splinter said "Let me tell you a story..."

[Master Splinter]

Whatever they do, I can't think of something much worse or something more unabashedly emo or metrosexual to see than arriving at a status quo like this:

What if this is an opportunity for them to wear different bandannas throughout their life. Like maybe one story will have them all wearing black, or one where they are all wearing blue searching for Leo.

I'll go hide in my hole now.

-ms

[ToTheNines]

If that were the case, TMNT & Zelda would be quite the similar series. Being I have tattoos representing them both, I wouldn't complain.
:trazz:

Interesting, I never knew that. I never played much past Ocarina of Time (Majora's mask really turned me off, plus I never had a Game Cube).

I feel the perfect way to have wrapped the issue would have been if Splinter said "Let me tell you a story..."

Damn dude, I thought the exact same thing lol.

[DrSpengler]

I feel the perfect way to have wrapped the issue would have been if Splinter said "Let me tell you a story..."

HA. Bit of a missed opportunity for a throwback, there, yes.

And I didn't really comment on the April/Casey thing in my review. I dig the idea that they start to know each other through something other than the Turtles.

In the Mirage series, it seemed like the only reason they hooked up was because they were the only two major human friends of the Turtles, so yeah, narrative convenience. But here they'll already begin developing a relationship unaware of the common thread they already share, which definitely interests me.

[Andrew NDB]

In the Mirage series, it seemed like the only reason they hooked up was because they were the only two major human friends of the Turtles, so yeah, narrative convenience. But here they'll already begin developing a relationship unaware of the common thread they already share, which definitely interests me.

Myself as well.

[plastroncafe]

This is the first issue of the series that felt like...an actual story, and not the narrative necessity that the first four issues did.

I loved the flashbacks, I loved how they compared to what was going on today. Just fantastic.

I like April and Casey having a reason to be together that extends further than a shared Ninja-related traumatic experience.

I don't even mind the colored bandannas, which I was kind of expecting that I would.

My only complaint, and I say this knowing full well that I'm biased as hell about it, is the slang the turtles are using. It seems forced. But again, I'm well aware of the fact that as I say this I'm on my couch with an afghan over my lap and my knitting off to one side. If I had a cane I'd probably shake it at those whippersnappers on my lawn.

[Redeemer]

Oh sh*t, it's crazy theory time.

Alright, so as long as we're all going to conform to the idea that Splinter here is a reincarnated Hamato Yoshi... can we buy into the idea the when the fates intervened, they gave Splinter infinite chances at his revenge?

What I'm thinking is that perhaps every Splinter in every TMNT universe is a reincarnated Hamato Yoshi and every set of turtles is a reincarnated set of his sons, and they're destined to spend each of their new lives to battling Shredder.

I haven't looked into Buddhist reincarnation theories or anything like that, but maybe this IDW Splinter has been reincarnated so many times that he is now cognizant of his past lives, or at least his first one.

Still some holes to fill in here, but I think something like this might be a cool way to really plug this new book into the TMNT multi-verse.

Im still liking my idea of the utrom intervening in some way

[Andrew NDB]

I hope Kevin is doing layouts for subsequent issues.

(not that anyone laid out any pages badly this issue)

[Slap-Happy]

I hope Kevin is doing layouts for subsequent issues.

(not that anyone laid out any pages badly this issue)
I thought he did the ones for this issue?

[Andrew NDB]

I thought he did the ones for this issue?

If he did, he was uncredited.

[Kendamu]

But seriously yes, I would like Klunk.

This.

I seriously would like Klunk to be a part of the new TMNT.


As for reincarnation, Buddhism, and colored bandanas, I'm down. Even if they're different shades of green, it's still hard for me to distinguish who's who without name dropping and looking for weapons. In the B&W comics it was one thing that I was just gonna have to live with and in most cases it was no problem, but I've had a bit of an issue distinguishing Turtles at certain points so far and it makes me have to re-read for reasons other than pure enjoyment.

Back to the origin, I don't have much to say other than, "Cool." I was sort of hoping that it wasn't reincarnation or the Turtles actually being humans prior to the present because I wasn't imagining the story being told nearly as well. Thanks to good storytelling, I actually like how it turned out!

EDIT: The only thing I would like more is if, since they went with reincarnation, they used an actual real Ninja story I know about a clan led by a guy named Mochizuki who used an attack method known as (roughly translated) "Turtling." Their big moment in history is when they used this method to take down the forces of the Ashikaga shogunate (the kanji used for "ashi" literally translating out as "foot") with a series of ambushes that eventually led to a fog and smoke-based trap where the Ashikaga were totally defeated without any friendly fire on the part of Mochizuki's forces. It was a real "Turtles vs. Foot" type story! It would've been neat for IDW to have used this story (at least in passing) as part of the story.

[Andrew NDB]

One thing that just struck me... we didn't get to find out the Turtles' human names this issue. Even if they were obviously Japanese names like "Yuichi Nakamura" or what-have-you, it would have been kinda neat -- if only academically -- to know what they were.

[TomWaltz]

*edit: It's kind of ironic -- in a sad way -- that the very panel where they first put on the colored bandannas, Michelangelo says, "Heck to the yeah!" How fitting that the moment they adorn themselves with the McTMNT™ bandannas they have to censor themselves, but really... If not a proper "hell," (a word acceptable in moderation in PG, let alone PG-13-rated material) would it be too much to ask to either, 1) Not have any Turtle say "heck." Ever. Or, 2) Just use symbols like ?!@#!? instead of the word?



Actually, "heck" was very deliberate word usage on my part. In any other situation, Mikey would have no problem using ye olde h-e-double-hockey-sticks curse (nor is there any publishing rule in place to stop him... er, me from using it), but out of respect for dear old dad (who is standing right in front of him) he self-censors. Same thing I'd do as a teenager in front of my old man.

[Andrew NDB]

Actually, "heck" was very deliberate word usage on my part. In any other situation, Mikey would have no problem using ye olde h-e-double-hockey-sticks curse (nor is there any publishing rule in place to stop him... er, me from using it), but out of respect for dear old dad (who is standing right in front of him) he self-censors. Same thing I'd do as a teenager in front of my old man.

Ah, OK. That makes a lot of sense, then... that didn't occur to me, though I almost thought (though I dismissed) the "heck" was a kind of 4th wall eye-winking at the readers when the colored bandannas came on, never to be repeated.

[Andrew NDB]

And really, hats off about the whole design and foresight into planning this issue... from the effective duality of the multiple covers making us ponder things for months now (and to me, as I've always said... isn't that kind of the best part? the wondering, the speculation, the food for thought... what breadcrumbs we were given for this issue gave us quite a bit of fuel to this end) to even carefully having different art on the flashback material. It's just well executed on all fronts.

Going to the comic store today was a little bittersweet. On the one hand, my dealer told me he didn't have the Kevin Eastman variant because he didn't order enough copies to fulfill the quota for it (so to eBay I go)... but on the other, he said he's been selling completely out of TMNT, so he has no choice but to up his orders to suit. Quite a change from the days he was telling me, "I couldn't PAY to give away TMNT comics!"

[ToTheNines]

On the one hand, my dealer told me he didn't have the Kevin Eastman variant because he didn't order enough copies to fulfill the quota for it (so to eBay I go)...

Same ****ing thing happened to me (On top of them not getting Ghostbusters from Diamond and a soccer Mom taking the last issue of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, whom I later overheard telling the guy working there that it was for her 11 year old son who plays Arkham City and watches the Dark Knight... I'm sure he'll love Batman's Hanukkah team-up with Ragman!). But I noticed a small print of the cover-art behind his desk and thought maybe they were selling Christmas cards of it, but he said it was a card he had received from an old friend. :ohwell:

Also, did anyone notice that there seems to be way more copies of Dan Duncan's cover than Santolouco's? Weird since Duncan's was the B cover this time around.

[Toby Barrett]

I noticed the same thing! My hastings had seven copies of cover B and absolutely no Cover A's. That's so weird.

[Andrew NDB]

My review:
http://www.firstcomicsnews.com/?p=36406

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah it seems it was a cover error, every shop I talked to in my area had the same story. All B covers and 0 to few A covers. I guess similar mistake to both RI covers for Raph having RI A on them. And I too have to go to ebay for the RI Eastman cover, luckily there seems to be a ton of them on there. My shop ordered 20 copies and didn't get one, so I don't know if that means that since there is only one RI cover now that its a 1:25 or if Diamond just really messed up on this one.

[1984TMNT]

Thanks. To be honest, I wasn't kidding about turning 'em back to humans -- that'll happen. It'll be the gender that's gonna surprise folks (see attached).

:tlol:

Ok, stop with that Tom. People are going to take it seriously and then we will have to debate that for months on end....... :tlol:

[Andrew NDB]

Between that and Kevin's comment in the ashcan about the Turtles waking up as humans on an alien planet I think there's a nugget of truth in it all.

[Rooish]

It's kind of ironic -- in a sad way -- that the very panel where they first put on the colored bandannas, Michelangelo says, "Heck to the yeah!" How fitting that the moment they adorn themselves with the McTMNT™ bandannas they have to censor themselves, but really... If not a proper "hell," (a word acceptable in moderation in PG, let alone PG-13-rated material) would it be too much to ask to either, 1) Not have any Turtle say "heck." Ever. Or, 2) Just use symbols like ?!@#!? instead of the word?

Maybe he just was watching his tongue around Splinter. What bothers me more is that he's using modern slang with only 15 months' exposure to modern America, or English for that matter. ;) Well, I guess that's enough time.

The origin story is awesome and works really well for me! Perfect execution! (Heh, I made a pun because there were actually multiple executions). Although I think Oroku Saki's (or Nagi's...?) lack of obsession with Tang Shen is a bit weird as it was what I always wanted. Also strange was that we saw no tears from Yoshi, after watching his wife die or his sons get beheaded. Raph and Don even look happy as they are walking away from their dead mom. It also seems an age order for the Turtles was confirmed, at least based on how the art looks: oldest is Leo (or whatever he used to be called), then Don, then Raph, then Mike. Fangirls rejoice!

Don't know too much about Buddhism, but I don't think that reincarnation is taken quite so literally in it... maybe some sects of it. I don't think Buddhists typically believe in a soul that passes from one body to another.

The coloured headbands... well I always like looking at the rainbow bandannas better, and yes, by skin tone, I think it would be have been difficult to tell Raph and Leo apart (unless they have their weapons of course). I think that the reasoning for the multicoloured headbands was a bit contrived, but about as good as it could have been! It's too bad that it seems that we won't see them in all red anymore at all--I was kinda hoping they'd wear the rainbows at home and then wear all-red while out (or all-black, which I think would look better and make it less Raphael-appearing).

So anyway, Tom, major origin story win.

The only thing I'm still a little skeptical of is Casey Jones. He's just too sweet!

Also the fact that Raph could beat all of his brothers. Umm?

Edit: Tom already explained the heck thing! Okay. Well even if there wasn't a reason like that, sometimes people say "heck." I do even though I also drop f-bombs sometimes.

[Andrew NDB]

I was kinda hoping they'd wear the rainbows at home and then wear all-red while out

Why should they be bothered to wear any bandannas at all at home?

That's mostly rhetorical.

[TomWaltz]

Also strange was that we saw no tears from Yoshi, after watching his wife die or his sons get beheaded. Raph and Don even look happy as they are walking away from their dead mom.

What?! No tears? Hmm... you should look at the attached (last two panels, specifically). You will see that Yoshi doth most certainly need a tissue. Even hardened, highly-disciplined and highly-trained ninja assassins turn on the waterworks sometimes.

:tcool:

Oh, and having the children smiling was deliberate. They are too young to know what is happening. Here's the script I wrote for that portion, nailed perfectly by Mateus and Ronda:


PAGE ELEVEN (six panels)

Panel 1: Teary-eyed, Yoshi drops his swords and falls to his knees next to Tang, taking her fragile head in his hands. She tries to smile despite her horrendous pain.

1. YOSHI: Shen! You live!

2. TANG (SHAKY): For only a moment…unf…my love.

3. YOSHI: Do not say that. We ca—

4. TANG (SHAKY): No, it is…too late. Please, hear me…Yoshi.

Panel 2: In tight on Tang’s face. She, too, has tears at the corners of her eyes as she speaks her final words to her beloved husband.

5. TANG (SHAKY): I see the d…desire for vengeance in your…eyes, my husband. Please…for me…think only of our sons.

Panel 3: Pull back so we can see Yoshi, Tang, and their small sons nearby, too. A very sad, dramatic moment.

6. YOSHI: But, Shen…Saki must be made to pay for th—

7. TANG (SHAKY): No, husband! Th…that is not my wish.

8. TANG (SHAKY): Take our sons…our babies…and flee. Away from here…hide them. Keep them safe.

Panel 4: Tang dies, her head sliding to the side as a distraught Yoshi looks on.

9. TANG (SHAKY/Fading to small): …for me.

Panel 5: Yoshi pulls his dead wife’s head to his chest for one last, tearful embrace.

10. YOSHI: My love…

Panel 6: In tighter… dramatic, sad shot of the final embrace.

11. YOSHI: …no.


PAGE TWELVE (six panels)

Panel 1: Now, knowing time is of the essence, Yoshi gently lays his wife’s head down as he looks at his baby boys.

1. YOSHI: My sons, Oroku Saki deserves to die for what he has done—but not today.

Panel 2: Yoshi retrieves and re-sheathes his swords as he continues to speak to his sons.

2. YOSHI: No, today we will honor your mother’s final wish and we will escape to safety.

Panel 3: Yoshi carefully gathers up his sons wearing the red and purple kimonos. They are good babies, who smile at him curiously. Blue kimono (the 4-year old) diligently car-ries the smallest son (orange kimono) in is his little-but-strong arms.

3. YOSHI: That is what we will do… today.

4. YOSHI: But this I swear…

Panel 4: Yoshi and his blue kimono son move to the door, a grimly determined look in Yoshi’s eyes. Blue kimono looks up at his father with sadness in his eyes. He is young, but he has some understanding of the tragedy that has just taken place.

4. YOSHI: …we will save another day for Saki.

Panel 5: At the doorway, Yoshi takes one last look at his dead wife. The sadness burns in his eyes.

5. YOSHI (SMALL): Farewell, Tang Shen.

Panel 6: And without another word, Yoshi flees with his sons.

6. CAPTION (SPLINTER): And so, Hamato Yoshi fled with his sons and a broken heart, leaving behind his dead wife and vanishing into the mountains.

7. CAPTION (SPLINTER): And, for a time, they were safe. And life…

[1984TMNT]

Between that and Kevin's comment in the ashcan about the Turtles waking up as humans on an alien planet I think there's a nugget of truth in it all.

I, for one, certainly hope not. Is anyone else apprehensive about the re-incarnation stuff? I guess time will tell as we get more details, but right now I feel like it's all a bit too coincidental and contrived that they are re-incarnated into animals that freakishly get mutated into human like forms.....

When I picture myself explaining this to someone who is not familiar with the TMNT, I see myself stopping half way and admitting it all sounds totally ridiculous.

"You see, there was a Ninja who had a wife and 4 sons...he left his clan and the leader then sent guys to murder his family - they did, and then they were all (save the wife) re-incarnated 500 years later in present day animals (turtles and a rat). Those animals happened to be part of a lab experiment where super soldier mutagen and a "make you smart" serum were used that then turned them into human like mutants."

Uhhh.....okay??

[TomWaltz]

I, for one, certainly hope not. Is anyone else apprehensive about the re-incarnation stuff? I guess time will tell as we get more details, but right now I feel like it's all a bit too coincidental and contrived that they are re-incarnated into animals that freakishly get mutated into human like forms.....

When I picture myself explaining this to someone who is not familiar with the TMNT, I see myself stopping half way and admitting it all sounds totally ridiculous.

"You see, there was a Ninja who had a wife and 4 sons...he left his clan and the leader then sent guys to murder his family - they did, and then they were all (save the wife) re-incarnated 500 years later in present day animals (turtles and a rat). Those animals happened to be part of a lab experiment where super soldier mutagen and a "make you smart" serum were used that then turned them into human like mutants."

Uhhh.....okay??

You'll be happy to know that the scientist inside Donnie is struggling with this very same thing in future issues...

[1984TMNT]

You'll be happy to know that the scientist inside Donnie is struggling with this very same thing in future issues...

Well, that does in fact make me happy :) Thanks Tom. Regardless of how people feel (good, bad or everything between), you guys are doing one helluva job keeping folks interested and on the edge of their seats. I hope casual fans feel the same way.

[TomWaltz]

Well, that does in fact make me happy :) Thanks Tom. Regardless of how people feel (good, bad or everything between), you guys are doing one helluva job keeping folks interested and on the edge of their seats. I hope casual fans feel the same way.

Thanks! I'll give you a little hint -- much of what is happening is inspired by these quotes:

"Learn to get in touch with the silence within yourself, and know that everything in life has purpose. There are no mistakes, no coincidences, all events are blessings given to us to learn from." -- Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't, they don't." -- William Temple

[1984TMNT]

Thanks! I'll give you a little hint -- much of what is happening is inspired by these quotes:

"Learn to get in touch with the silence within yourself, and know that everything in life has purpose. There are no mistakes, no coincidences, all events are blessings given to us to learn from." -- Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

"When I pray, coincidences happen, and when I don't, they don't." -- William Temple

To play Devil's advocate, what would be your rebuttal to people who say those quotes are superstitious nonsense? (not to mention reincarnation itself)

[Andrew NDB]

Here's a question: Donatello's question to Splinter at the end of #5 will be answered in #6, right?

[TomWaltz]

To play Devil's advocate, what would be your rebuttal to people who say those quotes are superstitious nonsense? (not to mention reincarnation itself)

I'd never refute someone's opinion regarding something of this nature. We all gotta believe what we gotta believe, right? Like I said, even Donnie has his doubts (check out attached sneak peek from issue #6).

[Metropoliskid41]

and then they were all (save the wife) re-incarnated 500 years later in present day animals (turtles and a rat).


I wouldn't rule out Tang Shen maybe also being re-incarnated maybe in the future. Not saying it will happen but I think that would be interesting and that the door for the possibility definitely isn't closed.

[Andrew NDB]

I wouldn't rule out Tang Shen maybe also being re-incarnated maybe in the future.

It's difficult to say we can consider the door closed on that when we just watched the father and his four children not only reincarnated together, but in such proximity and under such extraordinary circumstances.

That said, the Turtles with both Mommy and Daddy as part of their regular status quo just seems too weird to me.

[TomWaltz]

It's difficult to say we can consider the door closed on that when we just watched the father and his four children not only reincarnated together, but in such proximity and under such extraordinary circumstances.

That said, the Turtles with both Mommy and Daddy as part of their regular status quo just seems too weird to me.

Oh, just wait until I bring in their dear ol' Uncle Sam!


http://images.clipartof.com/small/43519-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Patriotic-Uncle-Sam-Turtle-Waving-An-American-Flag-On-Independence-Day.jpg


(Heh.)

[Matches Malone]

Wow! What an issue! After reading this book, I had mixed feelings at best...

On the positive side, everything was done so well and Santolouco's art was fantastic! This team is not afraid to make things dark, violent, and most of all, make risky story decisions. That last point is the best news for the integrity of the series, but at the same time, means some readers are going to get burned eventually. This time, that reader was me.

I have no problem accepting reincarnation and injecting the spiritual ideas of fate. On the contrary, I think this further cements the TMNT's ties to their Japanese roots. As Tom has stated, he promised that the story must makes sense and now I believe him. My concerns now come from story decisions, which I can't really fault him for, as that comes down to a matter of taste and preference. Spengler said it best in his review that in this new origin, we gained some new exciting things, but we also lost some as well. The creative team probably prefers the new origin, naturally, but I am really sad to see the "freak" and "outcast" elements of the TMNT go out the window by essentially making them humans trapped in turtle bodies. The last thing I want are for the turtles to resent being turtles thinking, "Gah, why can't we walk on the street? We're humans! Why did we have to come back as TURTLES?" The only way I can see them retaining this "outsider" mentality is if the turtles only have hazy recalls of their past lives and mainly identify themselves as mutated turtles with a "vague spiritual link" to their past Japanese lives. It sounds like this will happen with Don in that preview Tom graciously shared with us, so that's a relief. Perhaps once the overall story is revealed, this element of the origin will work for me. You're makin' me nervous, Tom!

As for the multi-colored bandanas, I think they look fine. I do prefer all-red, but story is what matters to me. I think the way they handled the transition was done about as well as it could be. My only gripe is that I was under the impression from the replies of the various IDW staff that the story "called for" or necessitated the transition whereas it very much seemed to be the other way around. I was expecting myself to think, "ah yes, I guess it would seem a bit strange if they continued wearing those red bandanas" but instead thought, "I guess that works." After all, are your favorite colors really that important when you're a ninja? Is it even an issue worth drawing attention to? The kids wearing their favorite colored clothes did look a little goofy like the power rangers who constantly wore their "ONE" color even in their civilian clothes. I think we can be a little more subtle than that. Oh well, no harm no foul.

In summary, I do think this was a great issue done wonderfully and skillfully. If this was a non-TMNT book or the first TMNT book, I would have no qualms whatsoever. However, knowing what we had in the original Mirage comics, some of those things I love are in danger of being tossed aside. My excitement for this series is still high, but the nervousness of this new origin probably brought it down a notch. Not irreparably, so I hence challenge thee, "bring it!"

[ToTheNines]

IGN review: http://comics.ign.com/articles/121/1215345p1.html

[Metropoliskid41]

It's difficult to say we can consider the door closed on that when we just watched the father and his four children not only reincarnated together, but in such proximity and under such extraordinary circumstances.

That said, the Turtles with both Mommy and Daddy as part of their regular status quo just seems too weird to me.

Yeah thats what I was saying. :tcool:

[Kendamu]

IGN review: http://comics.ign.com/articles/121/1215345p1.html
I'm really diggin' the fact that the Turtles are not only selling well, but they're getting good reviews, too. I felt like this should've been happening years ago.

[Coola Yagami]

This new development raises a lot of questions... is Hob also a reincarnated enemy of Yoshi? Are all animals reincarnations of someone and the mutagen helps them remember their past lives? How would that affect the memories of Bebop and Rocksteady?

Also how does reincarnation work? Don't you get reborn shortly after you die? I mean, if Yoshi and the kids died in feudal Japan, they must have died several times over before finally being reborn as animals in the 90's or so. Plus, as young as they are, were they already that adapt in ninjitsu? Plus... the Turtles, even with minor memories of the past, basically relearning and remembering past martial arts skills... they still act pretty much American... Why did Splinter/Yoshi maintain his Japanese mannerisms and habits, while the Turtles didn't? Just sayin...

Also I wonder what will become of Saki. He is just a descendant, not the ancestor unless they change things. It would be epic when it came down to it to have the Turtles question their motives when they realize that even though modern day Saki is a dousche, he still isn't the same guy that killed their past selves and make them question Splinter's wishes.

[Metropoliskid41]

This new development raises a lot of questions... is Hob also a reincarnated enemy of Yoshi? Are all animals reincarnations of someone and the mutagen helps them remember their past lives? How would that affect the memories of Bebop and Rocksteady?

Also how does reincarnation work? Don't you get reborn shortly after you die? I mean, if Yoshi and the kids died in feudal Japan, they must have died several times over before finally being reborn as animals in the 90's or so. Plus, as young as they are, were they already that adapt in ninjitsu? Plus... the Turtles, even with minor memories of the past, basically relearning and remembering past martial arts skills... they still act pretty much American... Why did Splinter/Yoshi maintain his Japanese mannerisms and habits, while the Turtles didn't? Just sayin...

Also I wonder what will become of Saki. He is just a descendant, not the ancestor unless they change things. It would be epic when it came down to it to have the Turtles question their motives when they realize that even though modern day Saki is a dousche, he still isn't the same guy that killed their past selves and make them question Splinter's wishes.

I guess I don't know a whole lot in the background of Buddhism how re-incarnation is handled, I think continuous or instant re-incarnation falls more into the Hindu train of thought. I took it as Yoshi prayed that someday they would be reincarnated at right moment to get their revenge. I took that as this present time is that moment, and the first time that they've been reincarnated since their executions at the hands of Saki 500ish years ago. I think the multiple re-incarnations opens up a way too big can of worms. Because then you have to consider who they were or how many past lives they had before they were warriors in feudal Japan. That's a big Twinkie.

[Matches Malone]

This new development raises a lot of questions... is Hob also a reincarnated enemy of Yoshi? Are all animals reincarnations of someone and the mutagen helps them remember their past lives? How would that affect the memories of Bebop and Rocksteady?

Also how does reincarnation work? Don't you get reborn shortly after you die? I mean, if Yoshi and the kids died in feudal Japan, they must have died several times over before finally being reborn as animals in the 90's or so. Plus, as young as they are, were they already that adapt in ninjitsu? Plus... the Turtles, even with minor memories of the past, basically relearning and remembering past martial arts skills... they still act pretty much American... Why did Splinter/Yoshi maintain his Japanese mannerisms and habits, while the Turtles didn't? Just sayin...

Also I wonder what will become of Saki. He is just a descendant, not the ancestor unless they change things. It would be epic when it came down to it to have the Turtles question their motives when they realize that even though modern day Saki is a dousche, he still isn't the same guy that killed their past selves and make them question Splinter's wishes.

I feel fairly certain that only Splinter recalls his past life due to the psychotropic serum ("splintering" his human cognition from animal instinct). Once that was awoken, he probably became aware of his previous life, but the turtles still do not recall much of anything because that's not what was being tested on them. The mutagen mutated their bodies and intelligence, but did not "awaken" anything, I would wager.

As for their American mannerisms, that would fall under the same heading of Splinter recalls his previous Japanese life whereas the turtles for the most part identify themselves as turtles raised in America. Also, I always considered the turtles to be a sort of "first generation" of American-Japanese with immigrant parents. When you're brought over at a young age, you assimilate with the culture and become "americanized" if you will.

[Andrew NDB]

This new development raises a lot of questions... is Hob also a reincarnated enemy of Yoshi?

It's possible. Though at a certain point, that seemingly every single friend, loved one, enemy of a guy in 1600s Japan all just happen to be reincarnated and mutated in 2011 New York makes the whole thing become pretty toxic.

Are all animals reincarnations of someone and the mutagen helps them remember their past lives? How would that affect the memories of Bebop and Rocksteady?

We haven't yet seen how mutation works in reverse (human to mutant), only that it can.

Also how does reincarnation work? Don't you get reborn shortly after you die?

You aren't really expecting an answer from anyone, were you?

I mean, if Yoshi and the kids died in feudal Japan, they must have died several times over

I'd have to imagine. Would they just be in some kind of Purgatory until 2011?

before finally being reborn as animals in the 90's or so.

Wouldn't be the 90s... a normal rat only lives like a year. 2010 at the earliest.

Plus, as young as they are, were they already that adapt in ninjitsu? Plus... the Turtles, even with minor memories of the past, basically relearning and remembering past martial arts skills... they still act pretty much American... Why did Splinter/Yoshi maintain his Japanese mannerisms and habits, while the Turtles didn't? Just sayin...

Easy answer: the Turtles didn't have the psychotropic serum, only Splinter has had that.

Also I wonder what will become of Saki. He is just a descendant, not the ancestor

I'm betting it's the same guy and I'm not necessarily liking where that may be heading (Ch'rell-as-Saki).

As for the multi-colored bandanas, I think they look fine. I do prefer all-red, but story is what matters to me. I think the way they handled the transition was done about as well as it could be. My only gripe is that I was under the impression from the replies of the various IDW staff that the story "called for" or necessitated the transition whereas it very much seemed to be the other way around. I was expecting myself to think, "ah yes, I guess it would seem a bit strange if they continued wearing those red bandanas" but instead thought, "I guess that works." After all, are your favorite colors really that important when you're a ninja? Is it even an issue worth drawing attention to? The kids wearing their favorite colored clothes did look a little goofy like the power rangers who constantly wore their "ONE" color even in their civilian clothes. I think we can be a little more subtle than that.

Well said.

[Matches Malone]

Also, I'm guessing the reincarnation is meant to be a one time deal kind of thing. Fate highlighting the epic rivalry between Shredder and the turtles. Wouldn't be too epic if every enemy was reincarnated as well, yeah? No, this is meant to be a story that shows us why Shredder's relationship with the turtles is special and why he is considered their arch nemesis. All of the other enemies we will encounter will be from the present, I think. Either they had previous lives and they aren't relevant and fated like the Shredder's or reincarnation doesn't really happen at all in this universe.

[1984TMNT]

It's possible. Though at a certain point, that seemingly every single friend, loved one, enemy of a guy in 1600s Japan all just happen to be reincarnated and mutated in 2011 New York makes the whole thing become pretty toxic.


I completely agree, which is why reincarnation seems to be a complicated and sort of "outlandish", if you will, origin for me.


I'm betting it's the same guy and I'm not necessarily liking where that may be heading (Ch'rell-as-Saki).

I second that.


Wouldn't be the 90s... a normal rat only lives like a year. 2010 at the earliest.


Rat's typically live 3 years or so...I had several growing up. So Splinter could have been a few years old at the time of mutation.

[marcelangelo]

matches malone, I am with you pretty much all the way, share your thoughts regarding the outsider feeling and the colors...reading all the recent developements something in me is thinking to myself:oh no, don't do that...why are we humans so in love with our own species that we must change everything into beings like us...not accepting that this should be a story about mutated animals that hide from the human world since they would only be rejected and feared anyway...
but I am open and happy to read along the ride...
then reading what you guys had to say I thought of this:..splinter is the only one treated with the psychotropic serum, what if only he is a reincarnated ninja from feudal japan and through his gained memory as a lab rat he was being over-protective towards the turtles, who just happened to be imprisoned in that lab with him and had the right number of 4 beings....so my thought is splinter may just be wishing so hard that these are his sons that they can avenge the wrongs of his past life, but the turtles themselves are 'just' mutated walking turtles(so still outsiders)...and this scenario would make master splinter's martial artist knowledge be authentic because he was a shinobi in japan back in the days...;)
just a thought...

[Andrew NDB]

what if only he is a reincarnated ninja from feudal japan and through his gained memory as a lab rat he was being over-protective towards the turtles, who just happened to be imprisoned in that lab with him and had the right number of 4 beings....so my thought is splinter may just be wishing so hard that these are his sons

I posted that exact same theory yesterday. I don't think it's going to happen, but it'd be creatively an interesting twist.

As it happens, though, the Turtles themselves in #4 remark that during their training with Splinter it's like remembering stuff they already knew... so they're clearly some kind of reincarnation of former martial arts fighters (whether or not they were actually Yoshi's children is questionable for now since they don't recall their previous lives in the same manner Yoshi does).

And Donatello looked pretty happy -- nay, overjoyed -- to be getting his purple face mask. If he wasn't actually the reincarnation of a Feudal Japan kid that had a purple fetish, that's pretty weird.

[1984TMNT]

matches malone, I am with you pretty much all the way, share your thoughts regarding the outsider feeling and the colors...reading all the recent developements something in me is thinking to myself:oh no, don't do that...why are we humans so in love with our own species that we must change everything into beings like us...not accepting that this should be a story about mutated animals that hide from the human world since they would only be rejected and feared anyway...
but I am open and happy to read along the ride...
then reading what you guys had to say I thought of this:..splinter is the only one treated with the psychotropic serum, what if only he is a reincarnated ninja from feudal japan and through his gained memory as a lab rat he was being over-protective towards the turtles, who just happened to be imprisoned in that lab with him and had the right number of 4 beings....so my thought is splinter may just be wishing so hard that these are his sons that they can avenge the wrongs of his past life, but the turtles themselves are 'just' mutated walking turtles(so still outsiders)...and this scenario would make master splinter's martial artist knowledge be authentic because he was a shinobi in japan back in the days...;)
just a thought...

Hey Marcelangelo - I thought the exact same thing. Although I think that is a possibility, I kind of doubt it based on the comments the TMNT made regarding "this feels so familiar....like my body has done this before and I'm just getting back up to speed"...or something along those lines. I think the reincarnation aspect would be more believable if only Splinter were reincarnated, rather than he and all for boys (and possibly even Saki).

[marcelangelo]

andrew ndb and 1984tmnt, oh man you're right I forgot about those remarks...what a bummer, well I am pretty sure the idw guys still got plenty of surprises up the sleeves to make most of our wild guesses and theories all invalid again at some point;)....they'Re preety good at that actually so far...

[Venom]

I wouldn't rule out Tang Shen maybe also being re-incarnated maybe in the future. Not saying it will happen but I think that would be interesting and that the door for the possibility definitely isn't closed.

What if April is the reincarnated Tang Shen? :o Perhaps that's where her attachment to the Turtles came from? jk

[1984TMNT]

What if April is the reincarnated Tang Shen? :o Perhaps that's where her attachment to the Turtles came from? jk

Sweet - then we can have an inter-species romance between Splinter and April, and throw in a little Freudian Oedipus complex with Donatello having a crush on her. :teek:

<end sarcasm>

[Keldor1578]

I'm betting it's the same guy and I'm not necessarily liking where that may be heading (Ch'rell-as-Saki).



What If Ch'rell is a parasite or a symbiotes that using Oroku Saki as his host body instead of using exoskelenton suit, or Oroku Saki was Ch'rell in his past.

[Matches Malone]

andrew ndb and 1984tmnt, oh man you're right I forgot about those remarks...what a bummer, well I am pretty sure the idw guys still got plenty of surprises up the sleeves to make most of our wild guesses and theories all invalid again at some point;)....they'Re preety good at that actually so far...

Yeah, pretty sure the turtles are truly reincarnated. From a story standpoint, Tom and the others have stated that this iteration of TMNT will put the family aspect in the forefront, and if the turtles were not really Splinters' son in a past life, then the family angle would kind of be a sham then. Like I said, the turtles will probably focus on their present form as their reality, so they may still regard themselves as outsiders. Don has his doubts on whether reincarnation is even real, so I think this is a good sign. As long as the turtles own their current turtle identity and not their past lives, I think we'll be okay...

[Venom]

I just realized how drastically the dynamic has changed.

In the original, we have Oroku Nagi killing Yoshi, and the Turtles being brought up to avenge a man they never knew.

This go-round, Saki himself kills Yoshi, who in turn is reincarnated as Splinter and his 4 sons as the Turtles. Will the mission be one of Splinter teaching the Turtles the martials arts to exact revenge for their former selves, or Yoshi defending his honor by taking Saki's life?

Damn...taking Nagi out of the picture brings a greater dichotomy to the Saki/Yoshi dynamic.

Also, I liked ol' man Yoshi. I want to see a Splinter micro in April please. :tcool:

[Matches Malone]

Also, I liked ol' man Yoshi. I want to see a Splinter micro in April please. :tcool:

Yes, I can get behind this!

[Andrew NDB]

One possibility that occurred to me: what if things are a bit like Frank Miller's "Ronin"... remember how in the end, it turns out the disabled Billy completely dreamed up the Ronin and his whole fantastical backstory in Feudal Japan and when the Ronin came to the present, it was simply the computer physically manifesting his fantasies?

What if, somewhat similarly, when Splinter was administered the psychotropic drug, he imagined/dreamed up that whole story in Feudal Japan? The drug would make it so powerful that it would seem real to him.

Of course, it wouldn't explain how Splinter and the Turtles were able to "remember" martial arts and all that.

[Andrew NDB]

In the original, we have Oroku Nagi killing Yoshi

You made that up.

[azrael]

Just read it and it was beyond great. Loved everything.

Also does anyone think this is one of the "history in the making" comics, correct me if I am wrong but this is the first time the TMNT went from all reds to colors?

Mikey's come out next week cant wait.

[ToTheNines]

I just realized how drastically the dynamic has changed.

In the original, we have Oroku Nagi killing Yoshi, and the Turtles being brought up to avenge a man they never knew.

You're bass ackwards.

Nagi beats Shen - Yoshi kills Nagi - The Clan boots Yoshi - Saki kills Yoshi/Shen - Splinter mutates and wants revenge.


Also does anyone think this is one of the "history in the making" comics, correct me if I am wrong but this is the first time the TMNT went from all reds to colors?


In the Archie comics, they all wore red when they were young.

[Keldor1578]

Yeah, I immediately thought of the 4kids Shredder too. I mean Oroku Saki existed in Feudal Japan in that cartoon, then he merged himself with a demon and became immortal.

Then Ch'rell crash landed on Earth with the other Utroms and he took over Shredder's/Oroku Saki's identity. So Ch'rell also existed from Feudal Japan to the modern day.

But I am sure IDW's Shredder isn't an Utrom or demon, that would be re-treading old ground. I don't mind the idea of Saki either being:

- reincarnated
- The Oroku Saki in the modern day is the descendent of this Feudal Oroku Saki
- Immortal, but being human
- Although this is the least likely, time travel.

Either way I can't wait.

Oroku Saki might be the reincarnated Ch'rell, Sinse Oroku Saki has a scar on his left eye like Ch'rell, Or Oroku Saki is the human host body of Ch'rell.

[1984TMNT]

Yeah, pretty sure the turtles are truly reincarnated. From a story standpoint, Tom and the others have stated that this iteration of TMNT will put the family aspect in the forefront, and if the turtles were not really Splinters' son in a past life, then the family angle would kind of be a sham then. Like I said, the turtles will probably focus on their present form as their reality, so they may still regard themselves as outsiders. Don has his doubts on whether reincarnation is even real, so I think this is a good sign. As long as the turtles own their current turtle identity and not their past lives, I think we'll be okay...


I don't agree that the turtles need be his "truly reincarnated" sons to have a strong family bond/relationship in this series. I think this can be done regardless of them being reincarnated or not. Splinter is the only/closest thing to a father figure they have in this universe, and that is a foundation upon which many family aspects can then be built on.

[Coola Yagami]

It still opened a few questions. Does Splinter hope to get revenge on the current incarnation of Saki? I mean, maybe it's the same guy that killed them years ago, but Splinter would have no way of knowing that. He should assume it's his current descendant.

Plus, while Krang wants Baxter and Hob to get the Turtles back for samples and whatnot... we can only assume Saki wants Apolex, Bebop and Rocksteady to get those particular turtles and rat for some reason was well.... Let's hope they don't make Saki somehow know they were the reincarnated forms of his past enemy...

[1984TMNT]

Oroku Saki might be the reincarnated Ch'rell, Sinse Oroku Saki has a scar on his left eye like Ch'rell, Or Oroku Saki is the human host body of Ch'rell.

This is starting to make my head hurt.....:trolleye:

[TomWaltz]

Okay... you've all twisted my arms for answers enough. I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag -- the truth behind all the mysteries. The following picture says it all.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DiW8hyIHgvc/RkyaotOV3jI/AAAAAAAAAPg/j9jJKmThYkc/s400/Bobby+Ewing.jpg


(No... I'm lying. Plus, nobody under 40 years old will probably get the joke.)

[Andrew NDB]

It still opened a few questions. Does Splinter hope to get revenge on the current incarnation of Saki? I mean, maybe it's the same guy that killed them years ago, but Splinter would have no way of knowing that. He should assume it's his current descendant.

That's a good point. And beyond any of this... how would Splinter even know there's any Oroku Saki currently out there in 2011?

[Matches Malone]

I don't agree that the turtles need be his "truly reincarnated" sons to have a strong family bond/relationship in this series. I think this can be done regardless of them being reincarnated or not. Splinter is the only/closest thing to a father figure they have in this universe, and that is a foundation upon which many family aspects can then be built on.

Oh yes, I agree completely. In fact, that's what I'm nervous about in this new iteration and stated so in my previous posts. I was merely stating that from the context of this new universe, if Tom & crew are trying to present their story as turtles with stronger family ties, then the turtles are definitely Splinters' reincarnated sons, or else it would make what they're trying to do a sham.

That's a good point. And beyond any of this... how would Splinter even know there's any Oroku Saki currently out there in 2011?

And how did Splinter know those turtles were his sons? I imagine the way he knows (maybe senses is the better term) who Oroku Saki's reincarnated form would be (assuming he is indeed reincarnated), it will be the same as to how he knew who his sons were. Like, uh... meditation?

[1984TMNT]

That's a good point. And beyond any of this... how would Splinter even know there's any Oroku Saki currently out there in 2011?

Great, great, GREAT points guys. Once again, this all reinforces my speculation (which is all it is at this point), that the whole reincarnation thing is very messy and coincidental.....much more so than a kid carrying a bowl with 4 turtles in it that slips and breaks dropping the turtles into ooze.

[Andrew NDB]

Great, great, GREAT points guys. Once again, this all reinforces my speculation (which is all it is at this point), that the whole reincarnation thing is very messy and coincidental.....much more so than a kid carrying a bowl with 4 turtles in it that slips and breaks dropping the turtles into ooze.

I think the main point with all the origin rejiggering is that somebody really, really didn't like that the Turtles' origin was just a pure dumb luck (in a manner of speaking) accident... whether it's the carefully planned mutation by Stockman's people (though the Turtles' theft kind of accelerated things a bit) or the pre-destined reincarnations, we seem to see the Turtles being shepherded along a "They're exactly who they were always destined to be" kind of route.

Fortunately, they're doing a pretty good job of it. At the very least, a very unique universe has been created.

[1984TMNT]

Oh yes, I agree completely. In fact, that's what I'm nervous about in this new iteration and stated so in my previous posts. I was merely stating that from the context of this new universe, if Tom & crew are trying to present their story as turtles with stronger family ties, then the turtles are definitely Splinters' reincarnated sons, or else it would make what they're trying to do a sham.



And how did Splinter know those turtles were his sons? I imagine the way he knows (maybe senses is the better term) who Oroku Saki's reincarnated form would be (assuming he is indeed reincarnated), it will be the same as to how he knew who his sons were. Like, uh... meditation?

I guess I'm not following how if the turtles aren't truly reincarnated, it makes what they're doing a sham? How so? Can't Yoshi himself be the only reincarnated one who raises 4 mutant turtles as his own sons? And can't that be a very strong familial story and backdrop to the series?

[Andrew NDB]

I guess I'm not following how if the turtles aren't truly reincarnated, it makes what they're doing a sham?

Because without a previous life they shared via some kind of reincarnation, the mere 15 months they've lived together as sentients in this universe isn't sufficiently long to make those family bonds not a sham.

[1984TMNT]

Because without a previous life they shared, 15 months ain't long to make those family bonds not a sham.

Not really though - because at present time, they know nothing of their history (they are about to find out). They are already, and have since issue 1, presented them as a family....and searching for a brother no less (that they don't even know!). I too, don't like a 15 month only existence, but so far the basket holding the reincarnation water is, for me, full of holes and leaking all over the place.

Not saying I hate what's happening....just not sure that I'll be happy with all of the seemingly contrivances that will be necessary to tidy everything up.

[1984TMNT]

Okay... you've all twisted my arms for answers enough. I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag -- the truth behind all the mysteries. The following picture says it all.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DiW8hyIHgvc/RkyaotOV3jI/AAAAAAAAAPg/j9jJKmThYkc/s400/Bobby+Ewing.jpg


(No... I'm lying. Plus, nobody under 40 years old will probably get the joke.)

Notice how everyone just sort of skimmed right over this, Tom? lol

What does Patrick Duffy and a shower scene from Dallas have to do with any of this?? :) Ahh...so you're sayin this could all be just a dream? (I know you kid here.....)

[Matches Malone]

I guess I'm not following how if the turtles aren't truly reincarnated, it makes what they're doing a sham? How so? Can't Yoshi himself be the only reincarnated one who raises 4 mutant turtles as his own sons? And can't that be a very strong familial story and backdrop to the series?

Well, I suppose they could still have a strong family bond (or at least, strong family bond in the making), but then we're just left with essentially the same kind of story as the Mirage where a rat and turtles make their own kind of family even if it's not tied by blood (an aspect I prefer, by the way). IDW is trying to emphasize the family aspect by making those figurative familial ties a literal one. I don't know if this is really necessary since I do prefer them to be just the makeshift family that displays that family is more than just blood, but it's the route that they are going down to achieve this, I believe. If the turtles aren't reincarnated, then they haven't really achieved their goal of a stronger family emphasis.

[Matches Malone]

Okay... you've all twisted my arms for answers enough. I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag -- the truth behind all the mysteries. The following picture says it all.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DiW8hyIHgvc/RkyaotOV3jI/AAAAAAAAAPg/j9jJKmThYkc/s400/Bobby+Ewing.jpg


(No... I'm lying. Plus, nobody under 40 years old will probably get the joke.)

Is this before or after Patrick Duffy mutates into a hideous rat? BA-ZING!

[1984TMNT]

Well, I suppose they could still have a strong family bond (or at least, strong family bond in the making), but then we're just left with essentially the same kind of story as the Mirage where a rat and turtles make their own kind of family even if it's not tied by blood (an aspect I prefer, by the way). IDW is trying to emphasize the family aspect by making those figurative familial ties a literal one. I don't know if this is really necessary since I do prefer them to be just the makeshift family that displays that family is more than just blood, but it's the route that they are going down to achieve this, I believe. If the turtles aren't reincarnated, then they haven't really achieved their goal of a stronger family emphasis.

Got it. I'm with ya. I too prefer the makeshift family.

[pannoni1]

This comic is getting some good press so far:

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2011/12/22/comic-review-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-5/

I like the concept of Oroku Saki before becoming Shredder immediately as it really gives a chance to build the Foot. The next few issues are shaping up to have a lot of action.

I think you're all silly with the bandanas issue, it's simply the turtles fashion preference; mixing their choices day by day!

[Candy Kappa]

What if April is the reincarnated Tang Shen? :o Perhaps that's where her attachment to the Turtles came from? jk

Or Alopex...

[Grimlock]

I think you're all silly with the bandanas issue, it's simply the turtles fashion preference; mixing their choices day by day!

Dude, really?

[Venom]

You made that up.

Totally; blame it on this damned sinus congestion medicine making me loopy.:P

You're bass ackwards.

Nagi beats Shen - Yoshi kills Nagi - The Clan boots Yoshi - Saki kills Yoshi/Shen - Splinter mutates and wants revenge.

See above.

[Andrew NDB]

I think you're all silly with the bandanas issue, it's simply the turtles fashion preference; mixing their choices day by day!

Dude, really?

I think pannoni1 is having a little bit of fun with us.

[Samhain]

it's simply the turtles fashion preference; mixing their choices day by day!

That sounds a little bit....you know...

[twopinacoladas]

The post I made in the thread #5 What do we know? is probably better served here as I didn't see the topic.

Paste ->

I actually really enjoyed this issue, although I don't like the colored masks or that it was Raph's favorite color why they wore them. Unless the spirits of Hamoto Yoshi and his boys were reincarnated into the Turtles and Splinter at birth or at the time of their mutation or whatever and Splinter all of a sudden because of this the mutation or because he was older or whatever reason knows all of the past in Japan etc.

Splinter obviously has memories that the turtles don't have as he was telling the story at the end. I think an idea I'd be more in favor if they really want to bring in colored bandanas is to have them wear their favorite color bandanas while at home relaxing and what not and when they go out on patrol or what not to have red bandanas to show unity and all that mumbo jumbo as a clan.

Then if they don't have their weapons everyone can tell them apart in the lair and people will also be happy that they still have red bandanas. This way they aren't just throwing away what they have had so far in this book in regard to red bandanas and in the past Mirage books.

Just a couple ideas I had floating around after reading it. Overall good book, I don't mind the changes and its making more sense having them learn martial arts so much quicker as Hamoto Yoshi's boys would have been teenage when they were slain. It also doesn't seem as bad that they were not children or babies after their mutation.

The positive or negative I guess is we may get to here stories of them as children in Japan as human pre-mutant turtles in stead of potential stories of them as young mutated turtles. So there would be some potential for stories of them as youngsters but it gets away from the whole mutated turtle thing if it happened.

One thing does anyone know if Kevin didn't do page layouts for this book as he wasn't credited. So I am assuming he didn't I hope to see more from him if that is the case anyhow it was good if he did or didn't do them on this issue.

[Vegeta]

Is it time for issue 6 yet? ugh

[Kendamu]

That sounds a little bit....you know...

Y'know... like actual people... who choose which t-shirt they're gonna wear that day like it's no big deal.

[marcelangelo]

The post I made in the thread #5 What do we know? is probably better served here as I didn't see the topic.

Paste ->

I actually really enjoyed this issue, although I don't like the colored masks or that it was Raph's favorite color why they wore them. Unless the spirits of Hamoto Yoshi and his boys were reincarnated into the Turtles and Splinter at birth or at the time of their mutation or whatever and Splinter all of a sudden because of this the mutation or because he was older or whatever reason knows all of the past in Japan etc.

Splinter obviously has memories that the turtles don't have as he was telling the story at the end. I think an idea I'd be more in favor if they really want to bring in colored bandanas is to have them wear their favorite color bandanas while at home relaxing and what not and when they go out on patrol or what not to have red bandanas to show unity and all that mumbo jumbo as a clan.

Then if they don't have their weapons everyone can tell them apart in the lair and people will also be happy that they still have red bandanas. This way they aren't just throwing away what they have had so far in this book in regard to red bandanas and in the past Mirage books.

Just a couple ideas I had floating around after reading it. Overall good book, I don't mind the changes and its making more sense having them learn martial arts so much quicker as Hamoto Yoshi's boys would have been teenage when they were slain. It also doesn't seem as bad that they were not children or babies after their mutation.

The positive or negative I guess is we may get to here stories of them as children in Japan as human pre-mutant turtles in stead of potential stories of them as young mutated turtles. So there would be some potential for stories of them as youngsters but it gets away from the whole mutated turtle thing if it happened.

One thing does anyone know if Kevin didn't do page layouts for this book as he wasn't credited. So I am assuming he didn't I hope to see more from him if that is the case anyhow it was good if he did or didn't do them on this issue.

well, one thing that already has been brought up about your idea is:when at home why AT ALL wear bandanas??....
second thing, you said to show unity they should wear unified colors outdoors(or upside for that matter)..well, they shouldn't be seen at all, they are ninja, shadows....so a unified color code would be-I think- just for themselves to feel being a part of the same clan, kinda motivation thing you know....

[ToTheNines]

Is it time for issue 6 yet? ugh

Ya know, I feel just the opposite. #5 was so epic, that it has actually tided me over for a little bit.

[The Big Bad]

If the series is going to establish that reincarnation happens, I have to say that not seeing Tang Shen reincarnated at some future point will seriously mar my enjoyment of the book (such as it is). Her character arc has always been problematic, to an extent--she a woman in a refrigerator in a series where men have always outnumbered women to a ridiculous degree--and while it's not as egregious in the original story--Shen, after all, dies at the same set of circumstances that kills off the equally ill-defined and created-to-die Yoshi and Nagi--here, were we to find out that fate conspired to reincarnate an entire family except for the woman, the unfortunate implications would be far more ugly.

[ToTheNines]

egregious

I love that word.

[Andrew NDB]

If the series is going to establish that reincarnation happens, I have to say that not seeing Tang Shen reincarnated at some future point will seriously mar my enjoyment of the book (such as it is). Her character arc has always been problematic, to an extent--she a woman in a refrigerator in a series where men have always outnumbered women to a ridiculous degree--and while it's not as egregious in the original story--Shen, after all, dies at the same set of circumstances that kills off the equally ill-defined and created-to-die Yoshi and Nagi--here, were we to find out that fate conspired to reincarnate an entire family except for the woman, the unfortunate implications would be far more ugly.

I've had that same thought and it's a good point... however, even more problematic than her character arc would be a status quo where the Turtles have a Daddy and now a Mommy and live in the sewers as some kind of perfectly functioning Brady Bunch family of former humans.

Ultimately it doesn't fall to Tom and IDW to redress Kevin and Peter's Tang Shen's origin to full political correctness... as it is, Tom carved a whole new layer -- tragic though it may be -- for Tang Shen's character that works with the established Mirage origin and furthers the IDW TMNT origin story.

[Matches Malone]

If the series is going to establish that reincarnation happens, I have to say that not seeing Tang Shen reincarnated at some future point will seriously mar my enjoyment of the book (such as it is). Her character arc has always been problematic, to an extent--she a woman in a refrigerator in a series where men have always outnumbered women to a ridiculous degree--and while it's not as egregious in the original story--Shen, after all, dies at the same set of circumstances that kills off the equally ill-defined and created-to-die Yoshi and Nagi--here, were we to find out that fate conspired to reincarnate an entire family except for the woman, the unfortunate implications would be far more ugly.

My impression of the reincarnation origin story is that Hamato Yoshi prayed to Buddha or "the powers that be" for a chance for vengeance or some kind of justice, not merely to live again. It isn't necessary for Tang Shen to be reincarnated for the sake of evening the score. I would expect Yoshi would wish for his wife to rest in peace rather than drag her into this unpleasant ordeal, especially when you consider her last sentiments. As I mentioned before, I am guessing this reincarnation and fate is meant to be an extraordinary story that doesn't happen any ol' time. I don't think we should expect to see every single person reincarnated or having a past life relevant to the TMNT. They were reincarnated solely because of Yoshi's prayer for the purpose of vengeance (or justice, I can't recall exactly what the content of said prayer was...) and fate deemed it fit to grant him his wish; not simply because "reincarnation happens."

[Andrew NDB]

Of course, if we assume that we're looking at either some kind of semi-Immortality or Ch'rell for Saki... he'll have survived some 400-odd years after murdering/having murdered Hamato Yoshi and his wife and kids. Even if Splinter kills Saki tomorrow, that'll have been a pretty good go of it.

[Matches Malone]

Of course, if we assume that we're looking at either some kind of semi-Immortality or Ch'rell for Saki... he'll have survived some 400-odd years after murdering/having murdered Hamato Yoshi and his wife and kids. Even if Splinter kills Saki tomorrow, that'll have been a pretty good go of it.

Better late than never right? In a melodramatic matter of honor, it can still be satisfying. Especially if you're considered an underdog. Being dead = underdog.

[Donnie]

Wow. I finally got #5 - hands down the best issue of the series thus far. I mean, I was almost teary-eyed in the flashbacks, especially during the execution of Shen (it's always sad seeing an innocent woman being taken out) & Yoshi's sons. Yoshi was old, but man, killing those poor kids was emotional. In feudal Japan, that was practically commonplace. As a comfortable American living in the 21st century, I can never imagine such a torturous sight. We are essentially immune to such tragedy (thankfully) and reading about it certainly strikes a nerve.

I'm totally buying this new origin. It adds an incredible amount of depth that wasn't present in the source material, and it also adds the darkest layer within the Turtles individual struggles - knowing that their parents and they themselves were murdered in a past life. Jeez, that's a heavy weight indeed.

As for the colored bandanas, I loved it. I've always liked the different colors over the all-red, and seeing how human teenagers would naturally want to stand out from one another (especially their siblings) the color coding for the sake of individuality works perfectly with me. Not to mention the reason they were wearing all red in the beginning - flawless.


I'm a big Highlander fan so of course I can appreciate and love big sweeping flashbacks like the ones taking center stage in this, and iconically, can you imagine seeing this kind of origin on the big screen? It would be awesome, just awesome. There's a certain marquee value and power to what the focus is becoming clear as: In Feudal Japan, their family was murdered 400 years ago by Oroku Saki... now, in 2011, their family will have another chance to settle the score! I can hear that being a voiceover in a pulse-pounding teaser trailer.


Funny you mention this, Andrew! I thought the exact same thing after I put this issue down. What a badass origin for a darker Turtles movie...

One thing that just struck me... we didn't get to find out the Turtles' human names this issue. Even if they were obviously Japanese names like "Yuichi Nakamura" or what-have-you, it would have been kinda neat -- if only academically -- to know what they were.

Same - I would like to know what their real names were.

You'll be happy to know that the scientist inside Donnie is struggling with this very same thing in future issues...

I'd never refute someone's opinion regarding something of this nature. We all gotta believe what we gotta believe, right? Like I said, even Donnie has his doubts (check out attached sneak peek from issue #6).

Ah, Tom, you spoil me as a Donnie fan! :D Thank you for the insight & preview panel! I look forward to reading how Donatello struggles with this reincarnation theory. I would imagine that it is going to bear heaviest on him, and I can foresee him wrestling with his rational brain often in order to try and come to terms with Splinter's story. I dare-say it may have something to do with his going out to that science fair in his Micro.

Hats off to IDW!

[Vegeta]

I agree with you donnie, i loved everything about the issue including the individual colors. Fun issue!

[marcelangelo]

My impression of the reincarnation origin story is that Hamato Yoshi prayed to Buddha or "the powers that be" for a chance for vengeance or some kind of justice, not merely to live again. It isn't necessary for Tang Shen to be reincarnated for the sake of evening the score. I would expect Yoshi would wish for his wife to rest in peace rather than drag her into this unpleasant ordeal, especially when you consider her last sentiments. As I mentioned before, I am guessing this reincarnation and fate is meant to be an extraordinary story that doesn't happen any ol' time. I don't think we should expect to see every single person reincarnated or having a past life relevant to the TMNT. They were reincarnated solely because of Yoshi's prayer for the purpose of vengeance (or justice, I can't recall exactly what the content of said prayer was...) and fate deemed it fit to grant him his wish; not simply because "reincarnation happens."

man, talking about reincarnation, we must have a connection somewhere in the universe, compadre!;)...had the same thing on my heart and mind and wanted to adress it sooner or later...to me this also feels like the reincarnation is a special happening and not bestowed unto everybody all the time..it has more to do with the injustice and brutallity with which this family was destroyed that yoshi sent a silent prayer to the gods to grant him a chance of retribution....at least that's how I am approaching this...(and maybe matches, too;)...)
cheers

[The Big Bad]

I've had that same thought and it's a good point... however, even more problematic than her character arc would be a status quo where the Turtles have a Daddy and now a Mommy and live in the sewers as some kind of perfectly functioning Brady Bunch family of former humans.

If that were the only way the scenario could play out, then yes, I could see how one might be reluctant to have it actually happen. However, that is far from the case, as the character could be taken in a multitude of directions. I could, for example, see her as being unwilling to believe or care that the turtles are her children reincarnated, and be unwilling to derail her new life for their sake; such a storyline could open the question of how bound the turtles are to continue dealing with the grudges established in their past lives. She could give being a mother and wife a shot, only to find out that she and Splinter/Yoshi are no longer compatible. She could have her own sons and husband. She and Splinter could split, with some or all the turtles debating or deciding whether to go with her. She might be a Foot sympathizer, or a lieutenant for General Krang. We could have a variation on the suggestion that Splinter only believes the turtles are his sons, and have him believe that a random woman is Tang Shen reincarnated. In short, there are tons of way you could write her in a way that avoids both the unfortunate implications and the shiny happy scenario you imagine.

My impression of the reincarnation origin story is that Hamato Yoshi prayed to Buddha or "the powers that be" for a chance for vengeance or some kind of justice, not merely to live again. It isn't necessary for Tang Shen to be reincarnated for the sake of evening the score. I would expect Yoshi would wish for his wife to rest in peace rather than drag her into this unpleasant ordeal, especially when you consider her last sentiments. As I mentioned before, I am guessing this reincarnation and fate is meant to be an extraordinary story that doesn't happen any ol' time. I don't think we should expect to see every single person reincarnated or having a past life relevant to the TMNT. They were reincarnated solely because of Yoshi's prayer for the purpose of vengeance (or justice, I can't recall exactly what the content of said prayer was...) and fate deemed it fit to grant him his wish; not simply because "reincarnation happens."

Two points: this is, of course, assuming that everything established in this issue turns out to be true. We have no way to know, for example, that it was Yoshi's plea that actually caused them to reincarnate, that it was Buddha who actually reincarnated them, or that it would be the only entity capable of doing so. Given what was established in this particular issue, there's nothing that would contradict a scenario where, say, it was actually Tang Shen's wishes that were being granted when the turtles and Yoshi were reincarnated.

The second point is that, even if the story justifies why only Yoshi and the Yoshi-lings were reincarnated, it doesn't make the unfortunate implications go away. If I wrote a story in which black people are uniformly prone to violence, it would be racist even if I explained that said tendency is due to alien intervention.

...which isn't to say that I feel Waltz or any of the IDW staff were being intentionally sexist or misogynistic in their re conceptualization of the origin; I'm just suggesting that they might not have thought about all the implications of the story they've created, which would be unfortunate but forgivable. And of course, this is all moot if we eventually find out that Tang Shen has indeed reincarnated.

[twopinacoladas]

well, one thing that already has been brought up about your idea is:when at home why AT ALL wear bandanas??....
second thing, you said to show unity they should wear unified colors outdoors(or upside for that matter)..well, they shouldn't be seen at all, they are ninja, shadows....so a unified color code would be-I think- just for themselves to feel being a part of the same clan, kinda motivation thing you know....

I had seen in another thread someone saying that it was hard to tell the turtles apart without their weapons (don and leo I believe the person refered to).

There has also been threads debating the whole bandana color thing so I thought it could be a decent compromise (I am not saying they should do that I just thought it would be a neat thing to do to try to please everyone). I think its to late now to go back to all red anyway, unless maybe Raph goes missing and they want to put the red back on until they find him for whatever reason.

The times they are seen are when they are fighting Old Hob and its safe to assume Shredder and others will see them. I was happy they had the red bandanas and think its unfortunate they changed them.

[marcelangelo]

I see...well, I guess it really is hard to please everyone;)even when it is just a little design question....but my heart beats also for just red but oh what the heck;)....
hey I wish everyone reading a merry christmas!!I am going to go to my mom's house now and trim the tree, unfortunatelly I won't have a butterfly knive like raphael for that task but it should be fun nontheless...

and as a christmas present a thing for you guys to think about and to discuss if you like:
...why did splinter carry the evidence of the exo-terrapin armor etc(the cd) to april when he was still an intelligent rat??why did he chose her/what do you think was his intention?...my guess is he might have the most trust in her since she had been caring about the turtles for weeks and she was still new enough to be an outsider to the laboratory so that he could have figured she wouldn't be involved in the experiments with the animals and mutagen....

[Matches Malone]

Two points: this is, of course, assuming that everything established in this issue turns out to be true. We have no way to know, for example, that it was Yoshi's plea that actually caused them to reincarnate, that it was Buddha who actually reincarnated them, or that it would be the only entity capable of doing so. Given what was established in this particular issue, there's nothing that would contradict a scenario where, say, it was actually Tang Shen's wishes that were being granted when the turtles and Yoshi were reincarnated.

The second point is that, even if the story justifies why only Yoshi and the Yoshi-lings were reincarnated, it doesn't make the unfortunate implications go away. If I wrote a story in which black people are uniformly prone to violence, it would be racist even if I explained that said tendency is due to alien intervention.

...which isn't to say that I feel Waltz or any of the IDW staff were being intentionally sexist or misogynistic in their re conceptualization of the origin; I'm just suggesting that they might not have thought about all the implications of the story they've created, which would be unfortunate but forgivable. And of course, this is all moot if we eventually find out that Tang Shen has indeed reincarnated.

To your first point: You're absolutely right, but for now I'm going to take the issue for face value as it makes the most sense to me. Perhaps there's a plot twist, but I don't find much merit in speculating on those, however fun it may be.

To your second point: I think we're getting into probably a hairy discussion over the responsibility of artists to further political agendas like gender equality. While I'm certainly all for raising awareness, I don't think it falls on artists to consider every single implication of what they do. They are only human and things can slip past them. Also, sometimes that's just not the story they wish to tell. I think it is more reasonable to expect them to be aware of such issues and not to present anything overtly prejudiced/sexist/racist, etc. which I think is what is being done here.

The bottom line is, the story as presented in its current form, does not feel contrived or forced. The story works and makes sense. As a Chinese man, I don't wish for political correctness to seep into every aspect of every story because real life isn't always like that. I don't wish for Chinese people to never speak with accents or eat rice. Yes, there are some who do and some who don't. It's not the existence of one depiction that is at fault. It's the extremity of one perspective that's the problem, whether it be exaggeration to the point of caricature or the suppression of alternative perspectives. Striving for political correctness can feel just as arbitrary and artificial as someone going out of their way to hate on women, minorities, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of other creators who want to tell a female-empowered story, and if that is being restrained, that's where we should cry foul. If someone doesn't want to tell that story, then we shouldn't fault them for what story they do want to tell. Sometimes life is sad and tragic and we enjoy stories about that. Does that mean we embrace or condone such things? Of course not. It's merely an aspect of life that interests us. More likely it's a reflection of the culture they grew up on. Yes, it's not perfect but we should improve our culture by encouraging those who want to tell those untold stories to do so, not impose on those who are already telling their own. If we do, then there is no limit to who they must please to the point they no longer have their own voice. This is definitely a controversial subject, so I probably won't want to further discuss this on a forum... Feel free to PM me though :)

[Keno]

I read this issue 5 times. I really love it

And I am supposed to work from home next week but I think I'm going to go all the way to the office on Wed just so that I don't miss buying the Michelangelo special :)

[Donnie]

Well said Matches, well said.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Just read issue 5. I think it was fantastic.

Although it hasn't been made 100% clear yet, I like the new twist in the origin. I wasn't really feeling the new origin until now. A good remake gives you everything you loved about the original with a few new twists, and I think the Turtles and Splinter being some sort of reincarnations of Yoshi and his sons will be an enjoyable new take.

I like the setup for April and Casey getting together.:)

While I didn't really buy the "Turtles all wearing Raphael's favorite color" thing, I do like the switch to multicolor bandannas. I like that they started off with the original all red, but I feel like since it's a color comic, it's good to have something to tell the Turtles apart besides their weapons. Although I think a more plausible explanation for the switch could have been to make things easier for their human allies to tell them apart.:tsmile:

[Andrew NDB]

it's good to have something to tell the Turtles apart besides their weapons

And besides skin tone colors. And besides faces. And besides builds. And besides the straps on Leo's shell.

Sorry... I really should just discontinue dwelling on this at this point.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

And besides skin tone colors. And besides faces. And besides builds. And besides the straps on Leo's shell.

Sorry... I really should just discontinue dwelling on this at this point.

Dwell away, it's what the Internet is for. :)

The multicolor bandannas are pretty iconic at this point, though. From month to month I really don't pay much attention to skin tones and builds, but I've had those colors memorized since I was a kid.

I like the idea of Splinter wanting them to express their individuality a little more. I know that contradicts the Mirage Splinter that raised them to eliminate Shredder and wouldn't have cared about such things, but this is a different series.

[Andrew NDB]

Dwell away

Oh, all right. :)

The multicolor bandannas are pretty iconic at this point, though.

Certainly, of a certain representation of the TMNT.

I really hate to use the Batman example because it's never quite apples to apples, but there was a very real time in the recent past when people couldn't imagine a time when Batman wouldn't have his big yellow-backgrounded bat chest symbol. "It's so iconic," "I can't imagine Batman without it," "It's how I think of Batman and always have known him"... I'm 100% certain this was the kind of general sentiment once. Now you pretty sparingly ever see the black-on-yellow symbol. Now you pretty much just see his original black, background-less bat symbol in the mass media and no one says sh*t about it.

TPTB looking at the cartoons and stuff and a few casual fans going "I miss the different colors!" and kind of just throwing their hands up in the air, going, "Well, I guess colored bandannas are kind of what people currently expect to see the TMNT with" and just doing it is a bit on the weak side.

I like the idea of Splinter wanting them to express their individuality a little more.

I'm not being disingenuous here, but why is that important to you?

I know that contradicts the Mirage Splinter that raised them to eliminate Shredder and wouldn't have cared about such things, but this is a different series.

It is a different series and Mirage Splinter is part of a different series (and I'm a little surprised you bring up either point now as neither have factored into the debate/discussion so far)... but in this series, unlike the cartoons and unlike the movies -- and as #5 itself reinforces -- they are, in fact, a ninja clan. That they were as well in the Mirage material -- while admittedly great the closer the IDW team draws from the source material the better, I say -- is neither here nor there.

[BAXTER STOCKMAN 19]

Just read it... So now it is 100% confirmed that Yoshi and his sons who lived in Feudal Japan are the Turtles..... But what about Shredder? Will he be the same Shredder from Fedual Japan that was also born again recently? or he will be a another Shredder?

[Donnie]

What's interesting is that Yoshi's last words were that he would have revenge against Saki. Although this Splinter seems passive in his approach, I don't think he's looking to slap him on the wrist. I think these Turtles are going to be training to kill Saki with the other adversaries acting more like barriers to that goal - whenever we find out who Saki is in our modern day.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Oh, all right. :)

Certainly, of a certain representation of the TMNT.

I really hate to use the Batman example because it's never quite apples to apples, but there was a very real time in the recent past when people couldn't imagine a time when Batman wouldn't have his big yellow-backgrounded bat chest symbol. "It's so iconic," "I can't imagine Batman without it," "It's how I think of Batman and always have known him"... I'm 100% certain this was the kind of general sentiment once. Now you pretty sparingly ever see the black-on-yellow symbol. Now you pretty much just see his original black, background-less bat symbol in the mass media and no one says sh*t about it.

TPTB looking at the cartoons and stuff and a few casual fans going "I miss the different colors!" and kind of just throwing their hands up in the air, going, "Well, I guess colored bandannas are kind of what people currently expect to see the TMNT with" and just doing it is a bit on the weak side.

I'm not being disingenuous here, but why is that important to you?

It is a different series and Mirage Splinter is part of a different series (and I'm a little surprised you bring up either point now as neither have factored into the debate/discussion so far)... but in this series, unlike the cartoons and unlike the movies -- and as #5 itself reinforces -- they are, in fact, a ninja clan. That they were as well in the Mirage material -- while admittedly great the closer the IDW team draws from the source material the better, I say -- is neither here nor there.

I actually like that oval bat symbol the best. :) Probably has to do with that being the art style when I was first introduced to Batman, just like how the multicolor bandannas were the first Turtles I was familiar with. So for me, I would have to admit that it's a nostalgia thing first and foremost. Does that make it superficial? Yeah, but the whole reason I'm reading TMNT in the first place is nostalgia, and just like the bat symbol, it doesn't really make a difference to me. Seeing the black bat symbol doesn't bother me, just like how I like both bandanna styles, I just like a more colorful set of bandannas for the color series.

I think the individuality thing works for me because of the back story with the apparent reincarnation. The Splinter/TMNT relationship seems a lot more loving in this comic book series, I could see encouraging individuality as something a father would do, as opposed to the Mirage comics where the relationship at first seemed more strictly sensei and student.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Some people are, with fair reason, objecting to the TMNT not growing up as outcasts and having to live in hiding all their lives. But even as humans they kinda had to live as outcasts too, they couldn't enter society because they would've fell victim to the foot. They did eventually of course, but that's not the point.

[Matches Malone]

Some people are, with fair reason, objecting to the TMNT not growing up as outcasts and having to live in hiding all their lives. But even as humans they kinda had to live as outcasts too, they couldn't enter society because they would've fell victim to the foot. They did eventually of course, but that's not the point.

Having enemies and being on the run is not the same as being an outcast. I'm sure Yoshi's family would have no inherent difficulty being accepted by society whereas mutant turtles will. In this IDW version, both turtles will still be outcasts in this sense, but being humans in a former life takes the outcast aspect from their personal identity. Like I said, last thing I want is for turtles to resent being turtles (i.e. themselves) because it was easier when they were living life as humans before. What was great about Mirage was you can identify if you felt like others didn't accept you for who you were. If the turtles, due to their lack of memories of their previous lives identify more with their current life as turtles, we could still salvage their identity as outcasts. This is what I'm hoping for and Tom Waltz is the man with the plan, so this very well may be the case.

[Rooish]

And besides skin tone colors. And besides faces. And besides builds. And besides the straps on Leo's shell.

Sorry... I really should just discontinue dwelling on this at this point.

What on earth are you talking about? Their faces and builds are barely distinguishable. Yes the straps on Leo help, but when he didn't wear them, in Issue 5 his skin tone really was similar to Raph's.

[Coola Yagami]

I also find fault with the Turtles lack of 'lip movement' as it were. They all seemed to have the same weird smile on their face the whole time, despite the fact they were supposed to be speaking. I know sometimes comics (for whatever reason) has the character with their mouth closed despite the fact that they're the ones talking... but the Turtles did this throughout the whole issue only having their mouth open twice or so... and the same weird smile facial expression the whole time made it look like the artists were rushing it or couldn't think of another emotion to portray when they are 'stationary'.

[Andrew NDB]

What on earth are you talking about? Their faces and builds are barely distinguishable. Yes the straps on Leo help, but when he didn't wear them, in Issue 5 his skin tone really was similar to Raph's.

Sounds like gripes with the art and color choices.

[Hermano Dyvas]

Having enemies and being on the run is not the same as being an outcast. I'm sure Yoshi's family would have no inherent difficulty being accepted by society whereas mutant turtles will. In this IDW version, both turtles will still be outcasts in this sense, but being humans in a former life takes the outcast aspect from their personal identity. Like I said, last thing I want is for turtles to resent being turtles (i.e. themselves) because it was easier when they were living life as humans before. What was great about Mirage was you can identify if you felt like others didn't accept you for who you were. If the turtles, due to their lack of memories of their previous lives identify more with their current life as turtles, we could still salvage their identity as outcasts. This is what I'm hoping for and Tom Waltz is the man with the plan, so this very well may be the case.

Yeah, they have to love being a turtle. (pun not fully intended)

[Andrew NDB]

Having enemies and being on the run is not the same as being an outcast. I'm sure Yoshi's family would have no inherent difficulty being accepted by society whereas mutant turtles will. In this IDW version, both turtles will still be outcasts in this sense, but being humans in a former life takes the outcast aspect from their personal identity. Like I said, last thing I want is for turtles to resent being turtles (i.e. themselves) because it was easier when they were living life as humans before. What was great about Mirage was you can identify if you felt like others didn't accept you for who you were. If the turtles, due to their lack of memories of their previous lives identify more with their current life as turtles, we could still salvage their identity as outcasts. This is what I'm hoping for and Tom Waltz is the man with the plan, so this very well may be the case.

The #5 revelation(s) definitely make me wonder how or even if Tom is going to touch on the outcast angle. I mean, a story like "Sons of the Silent Age" really wouldn't work if the TMNT in that had the IDW origin. As I haven't really seen any comment on their stance on this I almost wonder if it was decided that the outsider/outcast-from-society/last of their kind/isolationism angle was something that Tom/IDW didn't like and want to get rid of... entwining Casey into things as early as issue #1 made me suspicious, and human past lives may just be the next step, followed by things like them making a lot more human friends and becoming vigilantes/fighting mankind's crime and stuff.

[Toby Barrett]

Recalling the four human's on Duncan's cover, it's kinda silly now how everyone was assuming those four were going to end up being mutated into the turtles, when really they were just some thugs Splinter took out on the streets.

[Matches Malone]

The #5 revelation(s) definitely make me wonder how or even if Tom is going to touch on the outcast angle. I mean, a story like "Sons of the Silent Age" really wouldn't work if the TMNT in that had the IDW origin. As I haven't really seen any comment on their stance on this I almost wonder if it was decided that the outsider/outcast-from-society/last of their kind/isolationism angle was something that Tom/IDW didn't like and want to get rid of... entwining Casey into things as early as issue #1 made me suspicious, and human past lives may just be the next step, followed by things like them making a lot more human friends and becoming vigilantes/fighting mankind's crime and stuff.

Yeah, not sure either... But with every new thing we see in each issue that makes me worried, Tom has shown there's good reason for it (ok, the headbands thing is debatable), so I'm definitely learning to trust that there really is a master plan, which they keep saying they have. As I mentioned in my last post, that sneak peak Tom gave us with Donatello debating the unlikelihood of reincarnation definitely leaves that opening for the turtles, or at least Donnie, to not really think of themselves as former humans. Kind of a cheat, but it could work. Again, I'm learning to trust Tom that he knows what he's doing and that's he's obviously a lot smarter than me... we shall see!

Recalling the four human's on Duncan's cover, it's kinda silly now how everyone was assuming those four were going to end up being mutated into the turtles, when really they were just some thugs Splinter took out on the streets.

I was just thinking about that! But then I felt silly that I dismissed that as evidence of reincarnation, and they end up getting reincarnated anyway. D'oh!

[Bobby Curnow]

On the outcast thing... There's too much rich drama to be mined from the Turtles being outcasts for us not to do that. Regardless of their past lives, being mutant ninja turtles (and teenagers on top of that- the most 'outcast' age of them all!) who live in the sewers is definitely a hearty recipe for 'outcast' soup. They're not going to feel like a part of human society. Far from it. Will they be as isolated from humanity as in Mirage? Hard to say at this point. Probably not, but hopefully close.

Looking back on things, I can see why this is a question though... the early friendship with Casey, the hot dog vendor not being too surprised about Raph... those are all things that don't point to 'outcast'. We tried to establish that the Turtles don't fit in when Raph tried to return the purse to the old lady but... it's not something we've particularly highlighted at this point, agreed.

But we will, methinks.

[Matches Malone]

On the outcast thing... There's too much rich drama to be mined from the Turtles being outcasts for us not to do that. Regardless of their past lives, being mutant ninja turtles (and teenagers on top of that- the most 'outcast' age of them all!) who live in the sewers is definitely a hearty recipe for 'outcast' soup. They're not going to feel like a part of human society. Far from it. Will they be as isolated from humanity as in Mirage? Hard to say at this point. Probably not, but hopefully close.

Looking back on things, I can see why this is a question though... the early friendship with Casey, the hot dog vendor not being too surprised about Raph... those are all things that don't point to 'outcast'. We tried to establish that the Turtles don't fit in when Raph tried to return the purse to the old lady but... it's not something we've particularly highlighted at this point, agreed.

But we will, methinks.

Excellent! Now we just need to see Casey lose his sh*t and go crazy and we'll really have TMNT where it needs to be at!

[Andrew NDB]

On the outcast thing... There's too much rich drama to be mined from the Turtles being outcasts for us not to do that. Regardless of their past lives, being mutant ninja turtles (and teenagers on top of that- the most 'outcast' age of them all!) who live in the sewers is definitely a hearty recipe for 'outcast' soup. They're not going to feel like a part of human society. Far from it. Will they be as isolated from humanity as in Mirage? Hard to say at this point. Probably not, but hopefully close.

Looking back on things, I can see why this is a question though... the early friendship with Casey, the hot dog vendor not being too surprised about Raph... those are all things that don't point to 'outcast'. We tried to establish that the Turtles don't fit in when Raph tried to return the purse to the old lady but... it's not something we've particularly highlighted at this point, agreed.

But we will, methinks.

More good news from above. Thanks, Bobby.

[Metropoliskid41]

Excellent! Now we just need to see Casey lose his sh*t and go crazy and we'll really have TMNT where it needs to be at!

I like how they've portrayed Casey so far, I think he should retain his anger issues, especially when fighting, you know lose his edge but I also like that he isn't bat s#%^ crazy all of the time. I think to me at least as someone who has had some anger issues :tmad: that he can still think and rationalize until he reaches that breaking point and then explodes and then is unable to be pulled out of his berserker rage until the adrenaline wears off. Maybe were barking at the same thing. Just in the past we've seen him wear he is too angry all of the time, and I just don't think that realistic at least in my mind. The way we've seen him uphold his promise to his mom and not ever fight back against his dad shows me that he still has a brain and isn't a total Berserker Rage Hulk all of the time. I just don't want to see his anger card overplayed. I'd like to see it come out in a battle wear say Raph gets hurt pretty bad and then that makes him throw the switch and end up nearly killing everyone in his rage. That to me would be much more realistic.

[marcelangelo]

I like idw's work with casey jones, too!I think there is an interesting imbalance in him with an impossible promise given to a human being who he loved and who in turn loved him(in his present life this is a rarity with him seeming more like an outcast(he can't play hockey/is kind of trapped in the task of improving acedamically) and the only other person who would connect with him is beating up on him and has lost his motivation to go on(dad is drunk all the time)....
this impossible promise(for all we know his father could have just killed him in one of his rages and he is supposed NOT to fight back) is going to push him to his limits somewhere pretty soon, trust me....I love it in retrospect how they introduced raphael into his world!!....I think raphael won't have nearly enough time he would need to adapt to his new life. because he will have to seriously watch casey not destroying himself when all the problems with gangster and ninja and so forth ensues....in my eyes so far that's how deep casey's frustration must linger inside soon...I mean it's a dead end where he is heading if life continues that way(his scholarship money is soon running out, too, remember)....great great work there, idw!

[Donnie]

Interjectory thought -

Do you suppose that those humans we saw on the alternate #5 cover (Splinter doesn't kill the two we see that match the cover) might be the reincarnated versions of the Turtles' killers from feudal Japan? Why would Splinter let them live by throwing the soda can down the alley? So the Turtles could settle their personal scores?

[Metropoliskid41]

Wow that really is an interesting thought and would add a layer to it that I didn't really think about. However I would say no. I like the possibility but this is why I say no. Their executors were Ninjas, and the guys Splinter takes down are common street thugs working for Hob. There has been some speculation that Old Hob is the reincarnated version of Shredder, which I really hope isn't the case (see my post in the Is Old Hob the reincarnated Shredder thread). Just because I feel like that would cheapen the reincarnation story. I think Hob needs to be his own original nemesis to the turtles, however you can't help but see the parallels. Splinter scratches Hobs face when he's breaking up their family, just as he had Shredder's in the original comic. And that Cats have claws could be perceived as a parallel to the Shredder's "claws". But Shredder was a master ninja, and for him to be reincarnated as a tough Street Thug really kind of takes all of the ninja aspect out of it. And I believe that it was his Foot warriors that attacked Stockman's lab, so to me The Shredder must have been reincarnated as another Shredder, maybe an heir in his own lineage, or immortal someway. I see Hob as kind of a Hun character. And see his men as kind of like the Purple Dragons. But I would definitely find it interesting to see their executors be reincarnated ninjas in the foot clan and to have the turtles get a shot at revenge.

[Andrew NDB]

I wonder if, in time, we're going to be having the same conversations we've been having about mutants in IDW ("I sure hope there's not too many of them") about characters reincarnated from Feudal Japan ("Oh no, not another one!").

[Donnie]

I wonder if, in time, we're going to be having the same conversations we've been having about mutants in IDW ("I sure hope there's not too many of them") about characters reincarnated from Feudal Japan ("Oh no, not another one!").

Heh. You never know.

Question: do you guys think the human Turtles' ages (it's clearly established that from oldest to youngest we have Leo, Don, Raph, & Mike) have any bearing on their current incarnation as mutant Turtles? I mean, if they all mutated at the same time, shouldn't they technically be the same age? Maybe the oldest to youngest was just a shout-out to their personality types? Although their personalities clearly resemble their human counterparts, at least from the glimpses we saw of them. Mikey stuffing his face, jolly, Leo stoic and disciplined, Raph a ball of energy, Don chill.

[Toby Barrett]

I think they're all relatively the same age physically, as I'm just assuming the turtles at Stockgen were around the same age, but retain their personality and mindset they had at the age before their death.

[Donnie]

I think they're all relatively the same age physically, as I'm just assuming the turtles at Stockgen were around the same age, but retain their personality and mindset they had at the age before their death.

Makes the most sense.

[Matches Malone]

I like how they've portrayed Casey so far, I think he should retain his anger issues, especially when fighting, you know lose his edge but I also like that he isn't bat s#%^ crazy all of the time. I think to me at least as someone who has had some anger issues :tmad: that he can still think and rationalize until he reaches that breaking point and then explodes and then is unable to be pulled out of his berserker rage until the adrenaline wears off. Maybe were barking at the same thing. Just in the past we've seen him wear he is too angry all of the time, and I just don't think that realistic at least in my mind. The way we've seen him uphold his promise to his mom and not ever fight back against his dad shows me that he still has a brain and isn't a total Berserker Rage Hulk all of the time. I just don't want to see his anger card overplayed. I'd like to see it come out in a battle wear say Raph gets hurt pretty bad and then that makes him throw the switch and end up nearly killing everyone in his rage. That to me would be much more realistic.

I was kind of half kidding about Casey going totally crazy but I do think that CJ has been far too level headed for having to go through what he is. I think most of us are assuming that he beats up on criminals to vent his frustration about his situation, but that really hasn't been made clear or explicit. The set up is there but I don't think it has been highlighted.

I like the IDW setup for Casey and that he's a little more thoughtful, but a defining trait about him is his rage issues that were meant to be a reflection for Raphael to deal with his own. They are supposed to be the misfits but I'm not really seeing that yet... Hopefully we will.


I wonder if, in time, we're going to be having the same conversations we've been having about mutants in IDW ("I sure hope there's not too many of them") about characters reincarnated from Feudal Japan ("Oh no, not another one!").

I'm already feeling that way about all the suggestions on who is the reincarnation of whom... But I guess that's all part of speculation. Reincarnation definitely could open up a can of worms and like mutants (maybe moreso, actually), the more that are reincarnated, the sillier and lazier the writing presumably becomes. If you want your audience to believe something extraordinary could happen, then don't let it become ordinary.

[Hermano Dyvas]

I wonder if, in time, we're going to be having the same conversations we've been having about mutants in IDW ("I sure hope there's not too many of them") about characters reincarnated from Feudal Japan ("Oh no, not another one!").

While I don't share Peter's stance on mutants I think I can get behind this:
OTHER REINCARNATIONS MAKE THE TMNT LESS UNIQUE!

I'd make an exception for Old Hob because he was there when they mutated and I can suspend my disbelief and accept that fate helped a hand there.

Other reincarnations would be too much.

[TheCollector]

Y'know, personally I liked that the Turtles got the Multi Colored bandanna's. It's nothing against keeping with the classic that some people like. It's just, I was just thinking earlier in the issue that for the life of me I couldn't tell them apart when they talked and had no idea who said what.

And then BAM! Multi Colored bandanna's, so now I can. I mean I know they're skin colors are different, but that's just not enough at times. So personally I like the multi colored bandanna's. They were needed in my opinion. Especially without audio voice.

And then on to the April and Casey front, I'm really liking April in this comic, and it seems it's confirmed that Casey is in Collage, not high school like some originally thought when he was first introduced.

[Zachatello00]

I love it! Just love the whole thing so far. Keep up the amazing work guys! You've got me on the edge of my seat!

[CyberCubed]

Well at least the Turtles weren't actually humans. They probably just retain the spirits of Yoshi's sons.

The Turtles were still normal pet store/lab animal Turtles before mutation.

[TomWaltz]

More good news from above. Thanks, Bobby.

They are outsiders, never fear!

The thing with Casey goes back to his life -- his dad -- etc. He's lonely, got a dick for a dad, and is, for the most part, a lost soul. The turtle dude is freaky, yeah, but even more surprising is someone actually doing something for him (Raph kicking the bully dad's ass). At that moment, Casey naturally focuses on that more than he does Raph's look. (I suppose I could've re-worked in the whole "punk rocker" thing from the first TMNT movie. I always loved that scene.)

As for the hotdog, dude -- I see it in the way I see Clark Kent's glasses. Those specs are a crappy disguise, but we accept that folks don't match Kent to Supes because of them. Same for the hotdog guy -- Raph's "disguise" fooled him.

As for Hob's thugs -- we'll get his backstory eventually and we'll learn how he got the humans to come around to his side, etc. It definitely was not his good looks.

So, yeah -- they are mutants and they are weird and they are -- and will continue to be -- outsiders and outcasts.

[Matches Malone]

They are outsiders, never fear!

The thing with Casey goes back to his life -- his dad -- etc. He's lonely, got a dick for a dad, and is, for the most part, a lost soul. The turtle dude is freaky, yeah, but even more surprising is someone actually doing something for him (Raph kicking the bully dad's ass). At that moment, Casey naturally focuses on that more than he does Raph's look. (I suppose I could've re-worked in the whole "punk rocker" thing from the first TMNT movie. I always loved that scene.)

As for the hotdog, dude -- I see it in the way I see Clark Kent's glasses. Those specs are a crappy disguise, but we accept that folks don't match Kent to Supes because of them. Same for the hotdog guy -- Raph's "disguise" fooled him.

As for Hob's thugs -- we'll get his backstory eventually and we'll learn how he got the humans to come around to his side, etc. It definitely was not his good looks.

So, yeah -- they are mutants and they are weird and they are -- and will continue to be -- outsiders and outcasts.

Hey, thanks Tom! This "outsider" aspect is really the significant quibble I have with the series, while the rest is quite strong! I'm enjoying Casey so far, but I am hoping for his character to get a little darker was we go down the road. I get that he's a loner, but I'm having trouble reconciling his fairly light and positive attitude with his background. If his criminal-bashing ways are indeed an outlet for him, I hope we'll see a bit more focus on that soon.

[TomWaltz]

Hey, thanks Tom! This "outsider" aspect is really the significant quibble I have with the series, while the rest is quite strong! I'm enjoying Casey so far, but I am hoping for his character to get a little darker was we go down the road. I get that he's a loner, but I'm having trouble reconciling his fairly light and positive attitude with his background. If his criminal-bashing ways are indeed an outlet for him, I hope we'll see a bit more focus on that soon.

Oh, yeah... big plans for Casey's development...

[Venom]

I get that he's a loner, but I'm having trouble reconciling his fairly light and positive attitude with his background. If his criminal-bashing ways are indeed an outlet for him, I hope we'll see a bit more focus on that soon.

Haven't you ever seen the psychopath who is all smiles and happy days but have pushed things down so hard that when they release the intensity is bat sh** scary insane? I have a suspecting feeling that's what will eventually happen with Casey.

Who knows if he'll manifest two personalities like he did in Mirage, though.

[Matches Malone]

Haven't you ever seen the psychopath who is all smiles and happy days but have pushed things down so hard that when they release the intensity is bat sh** scary insane? I have a suspecting feeling that's what will eventually happen with Casey.

Who knows if he'll manifest two personalities like he did in Mirage, though.

Indeed! And that was my suspicion from the get-go, but 5 issues in, I really haven't seen any indication of that "repressed" side. Even when he was beating up criminals in #3, it seemed more of the "boys will be boys" kind of fun and didn't have much dark or disturbing undertones, so I'm starting to get a little anxious about it. The only outcast sentiments we've seen him actually express so far is him feeling lonely about going home by himself in Raphael #1 or feeling sad about his parents. Like I said, I'm anticipating a crazy scary side that's being repressed too, I just hope we see some sign of it soon! Split personalities like in Mirage would be a really cool thing to develop and would be a very interesting layer to Casey Jones. The potential is definitely there since his initial introduction was just a madman vigilante. To portray him as split between two extremes would make him much much more interesting and would also help set him apart from Raphael, the "other" angsty TMNT character.

[Andrew NDB]

Oh, yeah... big plans for Casey's development...

I figured you might. I think I see what's coming but I don't want to say it and then have egg on my face when I'm wrong. :)

[Donnie]

I'm all about Casey getting development, but I hope it doesn't overshadow the character development we should be seeing first with the Turtles. Everyone loves Jones, but I never saw the big deal in him. He's not intelligent, he's just your average brute. (Waits for Casey fans to throw tomatoes in large quantities).

[Venom]

he's just your average brute.

Who's just a liiiiiittle off in the head. :twink:

[Metropoliskid41]

*casts first tomato*

Nah for me I've always dug how he's Raph's anger problem amplified and personafied for Raph to see how destructive it can be to lose control, and since Raph is my favorite of the turtles I'm naturally drawn to liking his pal Casey as well.

I look forward to more Casey development, can't wait!!

[Donnie]

*casts first tomato*

Nah for me I've always dug how he's Raph's anger problem amplified and personafied for Raph to see how destructive it can be to lose control, and since Raph is my favorite of the turtles I'm naturally drawn to liking his pal Casey as well.

I like that reasoning. Makes sense!

[oldmanwinters]

Well, I FINALLY got around to reading this last night.

...

I can live with the origin. (It IS rather interesting, I have to admit.)

Now write me some REAL ADVENTURE STORIES, IDW Team!


EDIT:
Pretty please. :tlol:

EDITx2:
The Mirco-Series has been giving me some satisfaction when it comes to actual story, independent from origin flashbacks. I guess I'll just have to be patient, right?

[BentonGrey]

Well, I just read this issue recently. I was seriously debating dropping this series, a decision I wasn't considering without great sadness because of my love for the TMNT. I thought that the origin story being told was just silly, and I really couldn't see how they were going to pull it off.

Now, I'm someone who is pretty hard to surprise. I study stories for a living, and my work, more than most in my field, is dedicated to seeing the connections between different stories, so I tend to be able to predict where a given tale is going. Given that, I felt pretty confident that there wasn't going to be a satisfactory resolution to the story being told here. I thought to myself, 'well, maybe I'll try it again a few months down the line once they're done with this silly re-imagining.'

And then I read this issue. I'm definitely on-board for a good, long run now. This was fantastic! The art was great, the story really brought everything before it home for me. It all ties together, it all 'works' for me now in a way I certainly wasn't seeing before, and best of all, I NEVER saw it coming. I really enjoyed the twist in this story, and it makes the idea of these events happening so quickly much easier to swallow. Plus, we're now starting to see characters really being developed, in small ways, but given the little preview you've posted, I can see it expanding from here. Also, from the very beginning I have been saying that I wanted to see the multi-colored bandannas, and here they are! Not only did they reintroduce them, but they did it in a way, as others have said, that made perfect sense. I've always said that the all red just doesn't work for me, visually. I can never tell the Turtles apart, and while the original books may have been in black and white, these aren't. Comics are, at the end of the day, a visual medium, so this kind of visual distinction works wonderfully. It's a small detail, but it really means a good deal to me as a reader and fan.

So, I am really looking forward to next month, and I intend to stick with the book for a good while now. The creative team has really earned some faith on my part, and I can't wait to see what else they've got in store!

[TomWaltz]

Well, I just read this issue recently. I was seriously debating dropping this series, a decision I wasn't considering without great sadness because of my love for the TMNT. I thought that the origin story being told was just silly, and I really couldn't see how they were going to pull it off.

Now, I'm someone who is pretty hard to surprise. I study stories for a living, and my work, more than most in my field, is dedicated to seeing the connections between different stories, so I tend to be able to predict where a given tale is going. Given that, I felt pretty confident that there wasn't going to be a satisfactory resolution to the story being told here. I thought to myself, 'well, maybe I'll try it again a few months down the line once they're done with this silly re-imagining.'

And then I read this issue. I'm definitely on-board for a good, long run now. This was fantastic! The art was great, the story really brought everything before it home for me. It all ties together, it all 'works' for me now in a way I certainly wasn't seeing before, and best of all, I NEVER saw it coming. I really enjoyed the twist in this story, and it makes the idea of these events happening so quickly much easier to swallow. Plus, we're now starting to see characters really being developed, in small ways, but given the little preview you've posted, I can see it expanding from here. Also, from the very beginning I have been saying that I wanted to see the multi-colored bandannas, and here they are! Not only did they reintroduce them, but they did it in a way, as others have said, that made perfect sense. I've always said that the all red just doesn't work for me, visually. I can never tell the Turtles apart, and while the original books may have been in black and white, these aren't. Comics are, at the end of the day, a visual medium, so this kind of visual distinction works wonderfully. It's a small detail, but it really means a good deal to me as a reader and fan.

So, I am really looking forward to next month, and I intend to stick with the book for a good while now. The creative team has really earned some faith on my part, and I can't wait to see what else they've got in store!

Very happy to hear it! Thanks for sticking with us -- we've got some fun stories to share!

Tom W.

[1984TMNT]

Very happy to hear it! Thanks for sticking with us -- we've got some fun stories to share!

Tom W.

Hey Tom, I feel like the origin is still a bit, nebulous..?.....obviously, I think that was a conscious choice by you and the team, but besides getting a tid-bit here and there over the next year, are there plans to solidify and communicate what the final deal with it is? Personally, I'm hoping that we get concrete answers soon so we can be finished with that chapter, for awhile at least.

[CyberCubed]

Hey Tom, I feel like the origin is still a bit, nebulous..?.....obviously, I think that was a conscious choice by you and the team, but besides getting a tid-bit here and there over the next year, are there plans to solidify and communicate what the final deal with it is? Personally, I'm hoping that we get concrete answers soon so we can be finished with that chapter, for awhile at least.

My guess is it might turn out that the Turtles aren't really Yoshi's reincarnated sons after all.

[Toby Barrett]

That wouldn't make any sense with them remembering something they've already learned in their ninjitsu skills and sharing the same favorite colors as Yoshi's sons.

[Metropoliskid41]

Yeah I think the comment Raph made about the ninja skills and fighting moves already being known by his body and that he just has to fine tune to me does seal that they are in fact his sons.

[CyberCubed]

That wouldn't make any sense with them remembering something they've already learned in their ninjitsu skills and sharing the same favorite colors as Yoshi's sons.

Maybe. But I think the origin still has more twists in it.

After all in the preview to #6 Waltz shared, Donatello questions if they are really reincarnated or not. I don't see why they'd bring it up if they didn't want us to think about it.

[ToTheNines]

I don't see why they'd bring it up if they didn't want us to think about it.

Because Donatello's a logical mind living in a comic book world lol.

[Metropoliskid41]

Donnie has always pondered and questioned their existence and the significance of it. Thats one of the few mythos they actually brought in to and used in the 2nd movie

[TomWaltz]

Because Donatello's a logical mind living in a comic book world lol.

Interesting you should say that, ToTheNines...

[MikeandRaph87]

Don should have a chat with this guy! That should clear up everything!:lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Ambushbug-comic-.jpg

[Donnie]

Donnie bad mouthing Mikey's comic books?! Not cool!

[ToTheNines]

Interesting you should say that, ToTheNines...

Haha, awesome. I wonder if we'll see Don come to terms with Splinter's story.

[Dragnskull]

I got to read this issue FINALLY last friday.

I have to say, I was originally very happy with the red bandanas, didn't think twice about it over color cause for me, the comics have always been "the red bandana universe" and frankly, i figured i'd be disappointed if it went otherwise.

Then during this comic, there was a panel where all 4 turtles were shown, and i thought to myself "man, it sure is hard to tell the difference between them, even with being in color"

low and behold, a few pages later, that completely changes, and i was like ":D COOL"

after looking back on it, that reaction is odd since i THOUGHT i preferred all red, but I suppose its just the way its been implemented that satisfied my thoughts on the subject. Great way to bring the color bandanas in.

[pihb]

I was curious, I went to the comic shop and picked this up over the weekend. Cover B is supposed to be a 4:1 ratio. My comic shop had about 5 copies of the B cover and none of A. Does that seem odd?

[ToTheNines]

I was curious, I went to the comic shop and picked this up over the weekend. Cover B is supposed to be a 4:1 ratio. My comic shop had about 5 copies of the B cover and none of A. Does that seem odd?

Yeah, we were talking about that over at the IDW boards. B appears to actually be the A cover.

[Toby Barrett]

You know, after reading issue 5, then re-reading the first four issues, the actions and reactions of little Splinter during the first three issues is absolutely heartbreaking in a way I didn't even notice having read the issues before.

The little guy was afraid he was going to lose his kids again. D:

[marcelangelo]

so today I walked around in the snow storm to pick up my monthly comic book delivery.meaning I got to read turtles #5 and michelangelo micro..I love them both very much!


re-reading I found it a little strange that hamato yoshi was stealing the fruits for his sons apparently from a foot stronghold, wasn't he??I mean why did he encounter those two footsoldiers there, one of them seemed to be higher ranked as the other one(whom yoshi didn't reall encounter since he was gone already when splinter killed of the other one) was reporting to him...an elite guard?...
if he kept his promise to tang shen properly and not endangered his sons' lives by sneaking into old territory again they might have lived on quite a bit perhaps...now, if I didn't missinterpret something here then splinter must be tortured by guilt about this...
a minor flaw to me:in one scene the sons look really akward with overproportunate heads, anybody amused by that also?;)
one thing that remains a headscratcher to me is why in the world would a band of ninja thieves carry huge steel plates on their chests?and all this costume??okay, the steel plate may fill a purpose like the one the stranger without a name wore in fistfull of dollars...but it ain't too stealthy...and ninja were pwople blending into society, so they would dress more like simple farmers or in order to give a cool comic book look they could wear at least sporty ninja clothe-pyjama-type suits like in the original vol1#1;)..sorry, I miss the proper name for this clothing here but I hope you get the picture...

[TonySiegel]

The red bandannas were definitely welcoming... I agree that it was at first difficult to distinguish the turtles. The color swaps are still cool, but I was getting used to the red. Oh well... the series is still dope! :tcool:

[marcelangelo]

welcome to the technodrome, compadre!;)

[Ch'rell]

Really enjoyed this issue. I'm totally down for a Lone Wolf & Cub-ish origin. I also didn't see it coming and really dug it. Keep up the good work, Tom and company!

Re: Buddhist reincarnation, in most varieties of Buddhism life is suffering and you are constantly dying and being reborn and the goal is to be a "better" person and therefore improve your karma so you will be reincarnated as a "better" living being. If you are a total jerk you may come back to life as a flea or something. Proper Buddhists are supposed to be accepting that life is suffering and trying to not "want". Essentially god is in nothingness.

Also, they may bring in some of the native Japanese religion, Shinto. For most religious Japanese, their spirituality is a combination of Buddhism and Shintoism. You will often see Buddhist and Shinto shrines right next to each other. You can think of it as Japanese using Shinto to deal with life and Buddhism to deal with death.

I'm not sure what Tom and Kevin have planned, but the reincarnation thing may be a tad more complex than a lot of us have been giving it credit for.

[AquaParade]

Interesting you should say that, ToTheNines...

Figured we'd see this in issue #6. Glad to see you guy's are ahead of the game!

I'm really looking forward to this conversation. In the back of my mind, I'm hoping Splinter is totally deluded with this reincarnation thing. Why?

#1. I love the flashback scenes in this issue. Beautifully handled, but the turtles being former humans still doesn't feel right to me.

#2. It creates an interesting family dynamic/rift.

[Andrew NDB]

but the turtles being former humans still doesn't feel right to me.

Well, they are and they aren't. I mean, for all we know, you were a velociraptor in a previous life... doesn't make you less of a human now.

[Matches Malone]

Figured we'd see this in issue #6. Glad to see you guy's are ahead of the game!

I'm really looking forward to this conversation. In the back of my mind, I'm hoping Splinter is totally deluded with this reincarnation thing. Why?

#1. I love the flashback scenes in this issue. Beautifully handled, but the turtles being former humans still doesn't feel right to me.

#2. It creates an interesting family dynamic/rift.

At first I didn't care for the reincarnation backstory as much, but now I actually quite like it, especially combining Yoshi and Splinter as one person again. I had my reservations about the turtles being reincarnated and I still do, but I also realize that at this point, if they weren't, it could make Splinter's story that much more tragic. It would certainly be a very interesting dynamic to adopt his turtle sons because they remind him of his past sons instead of actually being them. Also, it feels a little less far-fetched if only one person received that miraculous chance to be reincarnated and avenge his family. All in all, I definitely like this idea and hope this could be a nice twist at some point down the road.

Well, they are and they aren't. I mean, for all we know, you were a velociraptor in a previous life... doesn't make you less of a human now.

True, but it's very much a part of the narrative. If and when the turtles come to accept their former lives as fact, it will become integrated into their identity and that does feel different than freaks who never knew of any other life than that of a turtle living as outcasts from humans.

[Andrew NDB]

True, but it's very much a part of the narrative. If and when the turtles come to accept their former lives as fact, it will become integrated into their identity and that does feel different than freaks who never knew of any other life than that of a turtle living as outcasts from humans.

I've done a lot of thinking about it. Now, I'm one who's very much against anything that makes them less of the outcasts or plays that angle down... but I can see the reincarnation thing not being detrimental to that, if played right. I mean, even while they were "growing up" (obviously, that didn't last too long) as humans, the whole time doing so were they not essentially outcasts? Living in hiding from the Foot, sheltered in some non-descript hut who-knows-where (but probably far from prying eyes) by their father?

Then they wake up as Turtles... and they're outcasts living in hiding from... everybody. It kinda works if you think about it.

My worst fear about things is that, kind of like you're implying, one day the Turtles wholly accept that they are not Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael, and Donatello, mutant turtles, but rather Hamato Miyazaki, Hamato Tonoshiro, Hamato Hitokiri, and Hamato Ryuzuki, humans from Japan, have total recall of their previous lives, and become pissed that they can't return to their normal human lives now. At that point, I think, things would diverge pretty firmly from the things I consider pretty fundamental to the Turtles' core.

[Matches Malone]

I've done a lot of thinking about it. Now, I'm one who's very much against anything that makes them less of the outcasts or plays that angle down... but I can see the reincarnation thing not being detrimental to that, if played right. I mean, even while they were "growing up" (obviously, that didn't last too long) as humans, the whole time doing so were they not essentially outcasts? Living in hiding from the Foot, sheltered in some non-descript hut who-knows-where (but probably far from prying eyes) by their father?

Then they wake up as Turtles... and they're outcasts living in hiding from... everybody. It kinda works if you think about it.

My worst fear about things is that, kind of like you're implying, one day the Turtles wholly accept that they are not Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael, and Donatello, mutant turtles, but rather Hamato Miyazaki, Hamato Tonoshiro, Hamato Hitokiri, and Hamato Ryuzuki, humans from Japan, have total recall of their previous lives, and become pissed that they can't return to their normal human lives now. At that point, I think, things would diverge pretty firmly from the things I consider pretty fundamental to the Turtles' core.

We are definitely on the same page there. The turtles still considering themselves turtles is how I "came to terms" with the reincarnation at first, but the more I thought about it, it's obvious that this cannot last. The reincarnation is pivotal to the narrative being told right now regarding their "old foes" in the Foot Clan. You can't talk about that conflict unless you refer back to their reincarnation. Thus, you can't really tell a story about turtles fighting an enemy they don't believe they've ever met forever. Eventually they have to either accept or remember their past lives, and once you're there, there's no going back. They are now humans with human memories in the body of a turtle.

The other reason I'm hoping the turtles aren't truly Yoshi's reincarnated sons is because it would be a more interesting and tragic story to adopt sons who reminded him of his past life (as I mentioned before). Also, it would retain the Mirage origin element of "the adopted sons carrying out their father's vendetta" which feels like a more grounded gritty story than "weeee're back and ready to kick butt!"

[AquaParade]

I want the reincarnation angle to forever by a mystery to the brothers. A matter of faith. No flashbacks, memories, etc.

Also, I'd like to see the differing opinions on it, such as we've seen with Donatello and Leo, tear this family apart! Call me a drama queen.

[Matches Malone]

I want the reincarnation angle to forever by a mystery to the brothers. A matter of faith. No flashbacks, memories, etc.

Also, I'd like to see the differing opinions on it, such as we've seen with Donatello and Leo, tear this family apart! Call me a drama queen.

I can kind of see that working as a fair compromise for a while and I could be into that. Perhaps that's how Tom will play it for now, but I still feel like you can't bring up something like the possibility of reincarnation and not answer it for certain eventually. Even if not by Tom, probably a writer following after. Just like in Tales Volume 2 where we get all kinds of things explicated that didn't need to but were as older issues were being mined for new stories.