Where Does Kevin Eastman Draw the Line?

[Donnie]

In light of the seemingly legitimate botched Bay-induced movie script, I must ask: where does Kevin Eastman draw the line? He released statements along the lines of (not verbatim) "fans will be pleased" and he constantly assured people of how cool the new film is going to be. He also gave the green-light to Venus, and created BodyCount.

There comes a point when you have to ask yourself, where does Kevin draw the line? Is there even a line to be drawn, or is Kevin sincerely so open to change that he embraces audacious stories that mangle his creations?

[CyberCubed]

He doesn't draw the line. Its quite obvious he lets people do whatever they want with the TMNT franchise and allows them to have fun with it. This gives us both good...and bad...scenarios.

If I recall Kevin actually wanted the Image writers to kill off Splinter in that series, but instead they change him into a bat to have him leave the Turtles for a bit that way instead.

Someone recently asked Kevin about Venus and he was like, "I still love Venus," so apparently he doesn't view her character as a mistake or anything.

[oldmanwinters]

Given the choice between the two of the co-creators, I am glad that Peter Laird had controlling interest over the franchise during the 00s. I don't really know if the franchise would be better or worse off if Eastman had made all the decisions for the past decade, but I think Laird kept the franchise alive (if not entirely thriving) during his tenure at the helm.

[gobo]

Laird was definitely a better parent than Eastman. Eastman would let his Turtles play in raw sewage.

[VaughnMichael]

You guys are so fickle.
Everyone ragged on Peter when he had the turtles.
Kevin hardly is in control.
Nickelodeon owns them now if you seem to have forgotten not Kevin.
Kevin is now sort of like the Turtles bad ass uncle.

[gobo]

Everyone ragged on Peter when he had the turtles.
I didn't. :D

[pannoni1]

In honesty, Eastman only draws the line when us fans and production executives reject his ideas. But its wrong to hate Eastman since even though he may receive more criticism than Laird, has provided more to the franchise than Laird has. He has a harder shell than Laird being more tolerant to negativity, and seems to support the fans to make projects possible much more than Laird.

[Donnie]

Given the choice between the two of the co-creators, I am glad that Peter Laird had controlling interest over the franchise during the 00s. I don't really know if the franchise would be better or worse off if Eastman had made all the decisions for the past decade, but I think Laird kept the franchise alive (if not entirely thriving) during his tenure at the helm.

I second this statement, I am definitely team Laird, even if he doesn't care about the franchise at this point.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Honestly, and this is almost an 'outsider looking in' viewpoint since most of my knowledge of the two authors comes directly from this forum...I think CyberCubed hit the nail on the head when he said that Eastman's 'looseness' on the Turtles gives us both good and bad things.

Obviously, Next Mutation was fraught with mistakes, but I think it was more about execution than the ideas themselves being bad personally. Could Venus have worked if more care had been put into making her work? I believe so. Was anyone there that could have done that? I don't know, it's probably debatable. As it is, was she a good character? Not at ALL.

And now Eastman's willingness to let others play with the formula is possibly giving us alien Turtles...which I'm not so fond of. So yeah, he could stand to be a little more strict on it.

On the flip side though, just based on his own statement about things, I find Laird to be WAY too strict. It seems to be literally his way or the highway, and most statements from him seems to be some kind of acidic comment about how something sucked. Sure, it's his opinion, and as the original creator he's even more entitled than usual to have his say on something - but it just comes across so horribly bitter to me.

So between the two...I'm probably more 'Team Eastman' if we're picking sides here.

[oldmanwinters]

You guys are so fickle.
Everyone ragged on Peter when he had the turtles.
Kevin hardly is in control.
Nickelodeon owns them now if you seem to have forgotten not Kevin.
Kevin is now sort of like the Turtles bad ass uncle.

I second this statement, I am definitely team Laird, even if he doesn't care about the franchise at this point.

I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on my criticism of post-Eastman&Laird Kevin and Peter (yeah, you read that right; not a typo!).

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise was (creatively) stifled under Peter because he wasn't open-minded enough. He would routinely draw a hard line against incorporating any proposed idea that reminded him of his memories of the Fred Wolf cartoon. He appreciated the fans, but he had very little patience for criticism. When fans criticized the current state of the Volume 4 comics, the PBBZ reprint, or some other TMNT project he oversaw (sometimes rudely and ignorantly so) he would often respond in a frank and untactful manner.

Kevin Eastman, on the other hand, has always been a remarkably open-minded artist, probably to the detriment of his actual work. He shook up the TMNT status-quo with the introduction of Venus in the Next Mutation. He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history." Although I don't have any sources, I think he embraced the weird guest artist/writer schedule on the Mirage Volume 1 comics more than did Peter. In recent years, he has been associated with the new film project and the IDW comics. I suspect he's taken an "(almost) Anything Goes" attitude with how the TMNT are portrayed in contemporary media. It's the exact opposite attitude that Peter took with the 2k3 show and the 2007 Imagi film.

If I had to pick either guy to meet and/or hang out with, it would definitely be Kevin. The guy just seems so fun and engaging, and I think he appreciates most aspects of TMNT history and doesn't mind appeasing fans who really love that aspects.

But I am nevertheless appreciative of Peter's stewardship over the franchise during what could have been a "dead era." He is the more careful thinker and storyteller (even if not fans found those stories especially interesting). He wasn't afraid to stand his ground against outside pressure to "improve" the brand or "do things differently." It may not have been the best (or the most fun) way to handle the TMNT property, but it did keep it alive and set it up for potential future success.

And... I was gonna make some profound statement to wrap things up, but I think I'm already getting bored with this post.

[the_minimizer]

By definition, it doesn't qualify as a TMNT movie because the turtles aren't teenage mutants in the film. Without all four defining characteristics, it's just a movie with alien turtles. I know it's a technicality but it's a big one.

[Jester]

I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on my criticism of post-Eastman&Laird Kevin and Peter (yeah, you read that right; not a typo!).

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise was (creatively) stifled under Peter because he wasn't open-minded enough. He would routinely draw a hard line against incorporating any proposed idea that reminded him of his memories of the Fred Wolf cartoon. He appreciated the fans, but he had very little patience for criticism. When fans criticized the current state of the Volume 4 comics, the PBBZ reprint, or some other TMNT project he oversaw (sometimes rudely and ignorantly so) he would often respond in a frank and untactful manner.

Kevin Eastman, on the other hand, has always been a remarkably open-minded artist, probably to the detriment of his actual work. He shook up the TMNT status-quo with the introduction of Venus in the Next Mutation. He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history." Although I don't have any sources, I think he embraced the weird guest artist/writer schedule on the Mirage Volume 1 comics more than did Peter. In recent years, he has been associated with the new film project and the IDW comics. I suspect he's taken an "(almost) Anything Goes" attitude with how the TMNT are portrayed in contemporary media. It's the exact opposite attitude that Peter took with the 2k3 show and the 2007 Imagi film.

If I had to pick either guy to meet and/or hang out with, it would definitely be Kevin. The guy just seems so fun and engaging, and I think he appreciates most aspects of TMNT history and doesn't mind appeasing fans who really love that aspects.

But I am nevertheless appreciative of Peter's stewardship over the franchise during what could have been a "dead era." He is the more careful thinker and storyteller (even if not fans found those stories especially interesting). He wasn't afraid to stand his ground against outside pressure to "improve" the brand or "do things differently." It may not have been the best (or the most fun) way to handle the TMNT property, but it did keep it alive and set it up for potential future success.

And... I was gonna make some profound statement to wrap things up, but I think I'm already getting bored with this post.
ByP2pQSbSmE

[Logan]

"We've allowed the wacky side to happen, and enjoy it very much. All the while, though, we've kept the originals very much ours – forty pages of what we enjoy and want to see in our books, whether it comes from our own hands or from those of the talented people we work with."

From the fan mail. While Laird might not retain that view, I think Eastman very much does. Their comics will always be theirs' and they can't be changed.

[Leo656]

Kevin Eastman draws the line - in his case, it looks more like a decimal point - directly to the left of the last two zeroes, and to the right of a number and a lot more zeroes. :P

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I've read the book Batman and Me by creator Bob Kane, and he said that though people have criticized the campy 1960's television show, he defends it because he says it kept the Batman character alive in the public imagination.

[cartoonistaaron]

Kevin, to me, has always seemed like a guy who can't believe he fell ass-backwards into millions of dollars. It's as though he came up with this idea on a lark and never dreamt it would turn into something as huge as what it became. He went along for the ride and enjoyed it. Laird, on the other hand, seems like a guy who wanted to be an illustrator and never got that chance, and who spent many years making concessions and compromises almost to the point of becoming frustrated.

I think their personalities are different from one another, and that's probably why the few things they DID do together were so fantastic. But it's also why they quit working together. Sometimes when you're full of passion and pushing up against something, you produce your best work. When you're comfortable and don't have to worry, and everything kind of goes your way, the work can suffer.

I don't blame Eastman for embracing anything and everything Turtle-related (though I thought and still think Venus was a stupid idea). I'd probably do the same thing if a producer wanted to turn my self-published property into a teevee show. But I'd also want creative control to an extent... So I can see both sides of it.

[Allio]

and looking at the old script, can kind of see was Kevin would of thought that we would all love this movie.

For all we were wanting it, we were getting Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang in the movie... fans had been wanting them in a movie forever

[squer]

Kevin is also having fun (http://squer-tmnt.blogspot.fi/2012/08/kevin-eastman-in-citizen-toxie-toxic.html) himself! :tlol:

[Nelson]

and looking at the old script, can kind of see was Kevin would of thought that we would all love this movie.

For all we were wanting it, we were getting Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang in the movie... fans had been wanting them in a movie forever

Wait, what?! Where can I get that script?

[TheCanadiandrome]

When he's dead?

[Jephael]

I like how open-minded Kevin Eastman has been over the years. As someone else has said he seems like a much more fun-loving person than Peter Laird.

[Bob]

Kevin seems more loose and open, although some would say too open. I think it stems from the fact that he just seems like a really nice guy. Going by the various video interviews I’ve seen with him over the years, he just comes across as someone who is too nice for his own good. I think that’s part of the problem, he’s just too nice to say “I don’t like it”.

Peter is basically the exact opposite. Out of two, I would much rather work with Kevin. Peter seems far too rigid for his own good. An immovable object. The vast majority of comments he has for things that he’s not directly involved with pertaining to TMNT seem to be either outright negative, or incredibly guarded. His comments can sometimes come across as being very bitter, too. I’m not convinced he doesn’t regret selling off the rights. He comes across as a saner and slightly more passive version of Alan Moore.

In a way, I’m actually shocked that they created one of the most influential franchises ever between them. They just seem like completely different human beings. I guess their differences balanced each other out.

[Genesis]

While I'd love to comment, I'd more or less be reposting the words of Old Man Winters.

[Andrew NDB]

For the record, I don't believe Kevin Eastman has ever publically voiced any dislike for any incarnation (or even any aspect therein) of TMNT ever, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form.

[ToTheNines]

For the record, I don't believe Kevin Eastman has ever publically voiced any dislike for any incarnation (or even any aspect therein) of TMNT ever, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form.

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview where he stated he didn't like Secret of the Ooze.

But yeah, you're not far off.

[Jephael]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview where he stated he didn't like Secret of the Ooze.

I know he said that in a recent episode of Cowabunga Corner.

[oldmanwinters]

Kevin, to me, has always seemed like a guy who can't believe he fell ass-backwards into millions of dollars. It's as though he came up with this idea on a lark and never dreamt it would turn into something as huge as what it became. He went along for the ride and enjoyed it. Laird, on the other hand, seems like a guy who wanted to be an illustrator and never got that chance, and who spent many years making concessions and compromises almost to the point of becoming embittered.

I think their personalities are far different from one another, and that's probably why the few things they DID do together were so fantastic. But it's also why they quit working together. Sometimes when you're full of passion and pushing up against something, you produce your best work. When you're comfortable and don't have to worry, and everything kind of goes your way, the work suffers, I think.

I don't blame Eastman for embracing anything and everything Turtle-related (though I thought and still think Venus was a stupid idea). I'd probably do the same thing if a producer wanted to turn my self-published property into a teevee show. But I'd also want creative control to an extent... So I can see both sides of it.

I think that's a pretty good point that I hadn't really considered when I made my earlier post. I think that analysis makes a lot of sense, considering what we've read of Peter's thoughts on whether or not he'd "do the whole thing again."

[Coola Yagami]

You can kinda sorta get where Laird is coming from since he had a hand in creating the original TMNT and saw them turned into kiddyfare. I mean this is the equivalent of that Family Guy episode where Brian had a serious dramatic screenplay, had a chance to have it on TV, but the execs turned it into a raunchy comedy with James Woods.

This is kind of the reason why Stan Sakai chooses to not have Usagi have his own show on any other media. He doesn't want his character to be kiddyfied or made 'cool for the kids' or whatever. Eastman embraces the Turtlemania, Peter regrets selling out.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Peter is basically the exact opposite. Out of two, I would much rather work with Kevin. Peter seems far too rigid for his own good. An immovable object. The vast majority of comments he has for things that he’s not directly involved with pertaining to TMNT seem to be either outright negative, or incredibly guarded. His comments can sometimes come across as being very bitter, too. I’m not convinced he doesn’t regret selling off the rights. He comes across as a saner and slightly more passive version of Alan Moore.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of Alan Moore here.

But in case my words earlier came off like I don't like Laird - that's not it. I'm indebted to both him and Eastman equally for creating a franchise that I love in a plethora of forms, that I continue to love to this day. And as different as they seem, that could have been why Turtles worked, is that two completely different mindset people created it.

But between the two, I'd definitely be much happier meeting Eastman at a convention or something somewhere. As others have said, he seems to be a much happier person overall.

[cartoonistaaron]

You can kinda sorta get where Laird is coming from since he had a hand in creating the original TMNT and saw them turned into kiddyfare. I mean this is the equivalent of that Family Guy episode where Brian had a serious dramatic screenplay, had a chance to have it on TV, but the execs turned it into a raunchy comedy with James Woods.

This is kind of the reason why Stan Sakai chooses to not have Usagi have his own show on any other media. He doesn't want his character to be kiddyfied or made 'cool for the kids' or whatever. Eastman embraces the Turtlemania, Peter regrets selling out.

All I know is, if someone wanted to offer me the kind of deal with my self-published property that the Turtles ended up with, I'd take it in a heartbeat!

[Donnie]

For the record, I don't believe Kevin Eastman has ever publically voiced any dislike for any incarnation (or even any aspect therein) of TMNT ever, anywhere, in any way, shape, or form.

Exactly...there has to be some sort of order, a line must be drawn...okay, maybe "must" is a strong word, but I'm personally of that mindset; which is why I would take Laird's TMNT anyday over Eastman's. BodyCount was horrendous. I suppose I'm also slightly biased because I'm not the biggest Casey Jones fan, and I like Raphael but he'd probably be my least favorite Turtle. Eastman has, throughout the years, put these two characters in the spotlight and I find it redundant. Peter clearly favors Donatello and (arguably) Fugitoid, yet you never see these two take so much spotlight as the duo of Raph & Casey.

I don't dislike Eastman, how could I? Yet his vast and seemingly endless openness to any sort of recreated or rehased TMNT media is alarming as a die-hard fan of this franchise.

[Leo656]

I also think it bears mentioning that Eastman's had lots and lots of trials and tribulations of his own within "The Industry" at a variety of companies. I think as such, he has a certain understanding and acceptance that you need to let go of your death grip on "your" property if you're ever going to make money on it. I think Laird is/was an "artist" and Eastman is/was a "businessman". That's probably WHY they complemented each other so well, and why Pete's always the "No" guy (over-protective of "his" sacred IP), and Kevin's always the "Yes Man" (anything for $$$).

I think it gets a little annoying when Kev jumps on every TMNT idea and says it's amazing (especially the awful ones), but Laird's stuff hasn't always been brilliant, either. We GET it, buddy, you really, REALLY like Jack Kirby. A lot of people in comics do, they just don't feel the need to remind everyone every 5 minutes. I mean, Grant Morrison does, but he's allowed because... y'know... people actually read his stuff.

Just to hop on that for a second, since we all know Pete is a huge Kirby fanatic, WHY exactly do some Mirage TMNT fans get so bent out of shape when sci-fi stuff comes into the property? If anything, the Kirby sci-fi influence was not only ALWAYS part of the TMNT DNA, in my opinion it's even more ingrained into it than the so-called "realistic Japanese ninja" stuff that's allegedly so important. Sorry to go off-topic, just a random thought.

Long story short, I think Eastman comes across as a shameless shill because he understands that comics/toys/cartoons/films are a commercial medium, the name of the game is MONEY, and a little (or a LOT of) compromise is essential. Pete, I honestly think, had greater aspirations than TMNT and is resentful he didn't get there, probably because this "silly TMNT thing" took over his life. I think he's ashamed that "all" he'll ever be known for is TMNT, while Kevin simply counted the zeroes and said "That's life".

[Genesis]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview where he stated he didn't like Secret of the Ooze.Probably because of the toned down/practically nonexistent violence.

[Konchadunga]

I would have agreed Laird was both painfully dictatorial and artistically-sound at the beginning seasons of the 2003 series, but some of the later stuff really makes me wonder what happened. The last three seasons positively reek of selling out, and make me think maybe Laird defeated himself. That's rather ironic; the whole time that the Fred Wolf series was running on and being unfaithful to the Mirage series, Laid didn't lose any steam in pushing the latter, but once he tried to do a "faithful-to-Mirage" cartoon series, it ended up making him hate the entire franchise, and doom the Mirage series by selling it. At some point, maybe hate consumed him.

If I had to pick sides, objectively, I'd say my own creative mindset is probably closer to Peter Laird's, but nothing whatsoever will justify his extreme rudeness to me. I don't think I've seen a single positive review of any media on his blog.

Eastman is a harder personality to understand in some ways. Perhaps he never stopped seeing TMNT as a joke, which is how he intended it, and so for him, it's nothing to get hot and bothered about, but that makes me wonder why he went from ignoring this series for a decade to becoming obsessed. Perhaps he is deliberately capitalizing on an anti-Laird, liberal backlash. Part of me wonders if he and Laird call each other up and scream obscenities at each other--or don't talk, for fear things will go that way.

[Dirty Blond]

How was Laird rude to you?

[Konchadunga]

Sorry; when I said "to me," I meant "in my opinion."

[Metropoliskid41]

To me Kevin seems like he's more in line with most of us, a dude who genuinely loves comics, and wasn't doing it to set out to be rich, but wanted to just make a living doing something he loved & enjoyed, comics. I think that's a dream a lot of us really have at heart, at least I know I do, and the fact that his creation took off, was so surreal, he didn't let the money change him, he was still the same fun loving dude who wanted to just enjoy the ride & create just like always, some of it went great, other parts not so much, but he was still having fun with it & never lost site of why he did it, because he loved it. It really seemed like he has told the stories he wanted to tell & taken the criticism well. Peter seems to be the complete opposite, taking everything very seriously. It seems to me that Peter took everything so seriously, and tried so hard to prevent HIS vision of what TMNT should be, pure (you can't blame him for wanting that) that it burned him out. It's hard to keep a co-created property flowing in the same direction when the co-creators have such different visions, and while on the outside looking in, it certainly seems like Eastman was probably more flexible than Laird.

Honestly now, by reading the Annotations in the Ultimate Collection, Peter is so bitter, that for a lack of a better term, he seems like a jerk. From the outside we'll never know exactly what problems and friction arose while they were collaborating and who was to blame, but Peter has very little good things to say in the Annotations about some of Kevin's decisions in some of the issues. I'm sure he has his reasons for feeling that way & its probably justified, but for us, who can only read what he writes on the subject, and not know the actual circumstances, it leaves him standing there like the villain.

His comments & criticism of the IDW series, which has been pretty much loved by most, certainly don't help his case either.

[John Pannozzi]

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview where he stated he didn't like Secret of the Ooze.

But yeah, you're not far off.

I heard him say the OT skewed younger and younger as it went on at the Boston Comic Con last year.

Interesting to note Laird once said on his blog that he actually liked the music in COOTS.

[cryan]

Someone Mentioned Eastman like the Venus De Milo character. Wonder what his reaction to Mona Lisa was.:D

[Powder]

What is that supposed to mean exactly?

[FearlessLeader]

I am curious from all the people that are not fans of Laird, how many of you have actually met him in person?

I have a few times and he has never been anything but very kind to me. He is certainly not perfect, but who is??

And the simple fact with the way this fandom has at times treated him and the other guys at Mirage I don't blame him if he a little bitter.

[Coola Yagami]

It is kinda funny when you think about it... Peter did things more to the true Mirage way... while Kevin was open to whatever worked and whatever the fans wanted. Given the big fuss over the new Nickshow and IDW comics that has some sort of input from Kevin, it does kinda seem the Mirage way sucks and the 80's toon way will always be the better version. Most of the complaints Peter got from the 2K3 show was because he stuck with the original Mirage stories and 'never gave fans what they wanted' and refused to put anything OT related into the show.

[sdp]

Laird has a special vision of what the turtles are.
Eastman sees the turtles as something anyone can do what they want with it and see theme expand.

Both have their pros and cons, different people, different ideas and I think that's why they worked well together.

Eastman interviews remind me of Steve Wozniak, I've never heard them say anything bad.

[Konchadunga]

I am curious from all the people that are not fans of Laird, how many of you have actually met him in person?

I have a few times and he has never been anything but very kind to me. He is certainly not perfect, but who is??

Granted, many haven't, myself included. However, I'm guessing those who do probably choose their words with care, because they know of his berserk buttons. I also doubt he goes to conventions advertising himself as "the guy behind Ninja Turtles," because of the risk of Fred Wolf fans screaming "Cowabunga" and the like at him.

And the simple fact with the way this fandom has at times treated him and the other guys at Mirage I don't blame him if he a little bitter.

That's a valid point to some degree, but the mistreatment runs both ways; Peter Laird mistreated the old fandom, and when all was said and done, Laird feels it bit like a hypocrite to me. If you're going to ignore the Fred Wolf series in your new cartoon just because you'd rather follow the Mirage series, that's fine, but after a while it was obvious that motivation ceased to underline the 2003 show, and then Peter doomed the Mirage series by selling the license, which makes me think that he was ultimately more motivated by hatred of other people's take on his series than love of his own. That is not the right attitude for creative artists to take.

[grungethemovie]

Someone Mentioned Eastman like the Venus De Milo character. Wonder what his reaction to Mona Lisa was.:D

i had to check pl's blog cause i recall something about monalisa

""My questions are in regards to the creation (or adapting) of characters on the old Fred Wolf cartoon and toy line. Even though I know you weren't a fan of that show, I really do appreciate some historical insights from your point of view.

1. Was the female mutant lizard, Mona Lisa, originally going to be a 5th mutant turtle who might have become a recurring character on the show? If so, did you or any of the Mirage folks veto that idea and force the cartoon and toy folks to alter her design? "

Yes, Mona Lisa was originally planned to be a fifth Turtle, and it was one of the few times, sadly, that Kevin and I were in total accord and managed to put our foot (feet?) down and get her changed into some other type of creature."

and now that i've found it i see the old man asked it :)

[oldmanwinters]

i had to check pl's blog cause i recall something about monalisa

""My questions are in regards to the creation (or adapting) of characters on the old Fred Wolf cartoon and toy line. Even though I know you weren't a fan of that show, I really do appreciate some historical insights from your point of view.

1. Was the female mutant lizard, Mona Lisa, originally going to be a 5th mutant turtle who might have become a recurring character on the show? If so, did you or any of the Mirage folks veto that idea and force the cartoon and toy folks to alter her design? "

Yes, Mona Lisa was originally planned to be a fifth Turtle, and it was one of the few times, sadly, that Kevin and I were in total accord and managed to put our foot (feet?) down and get her changed into some other type of creature."

and now that i've found it i see the old man asked it :)

Dude, I remember asking that question! I asked because there had been some Drome discussion about Mona Lisa on some of Laird's past comments on her design in the Volume 4 comic editorial comments.

[Plasticplayhouse]

I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstood on my criticism of post-Eastman&Laird Kevin and Peter (yeah, you read that right; not a typo!).

In my opinion, the TMNT franchise was (creatively) stifled under Peter because he wasn't open-minded enough. He would routinely draw a hard line against incorporating any proposed idea that reminded him of his memories of the Fred Wolf cartoon. He appreciated the fans, but he had very little patience for criticism. When fans criticized the current state of the Volume 4 comics, the PBBZ reprint, or some other TMNT project he oversaw (sometimes rudely and ignorantly so) he would often respond in a frank and untactful manner.

Kevin Eastman, on the other hand, has always been a remarkably open-minded artist, probably to the detriment of his actual work. He shook up the TMNT status-quo with the introduction of Venus in the Next Mutation. He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history." Although I don't have any sources, I think he embraced the weird guest artist/writer schedule on the Mirage Volume 1 comics more than did Peter. In recent years, he has been associated with the new film project and the IDW comics. I suspect he's taken an "(almost) Anything Goes" attitude with how the TMNT are portrayed in contemporary media. It's the exact opposite attitude that Peter took with the 2k3 show and the 2007 Imagi film.

If I had to pick either guy to meet and/or hang out with, it would definitely be Kevin. The guy just seems so fun and engaging, and I think he appreciates most aspects of TMNT history and doesn't mind appeasing fans who really love that aspects.

But I am nevertheless appreciative of Peter's stewardship over the franchise during what could have been a "dead era." He is the more careful thinker and storyteller (even if not fans found those stories especially interesting). He wasn't afraid to stand his ground against outside pressure to "improve" the brand or "do things differently." It may not have been the best (or the most fun) way to handle the TMNT property, but it did keep it alive and set it up for potential future success.

And... I was gonna make some profound statement to wrap things up, but I think I'm already getting bored with this post.

I totally agree. together, pete and kevin were/always will be, a truly dynamic duo. kevin is full of zeal, adventure, excitement, and open mindedness. peter on the other hand, is more of the time keeper, architect, and steady hand. pete was able to channel kevin's energy to keep everything well balanced whereas kevin was able to open pete up a little more and probably be a little more free spirited and more willing to accept something.

their art shared the same balance. peter had the finesse and kevin had the grit. it was a beautiful combo that made the turtles what they were. pete's drawing was so clean and beautiful. Kevin's inks were so powerful and held a lot of energy and emotion. i have no favorite between the two of them. to me they are as one.

I appreciate everything that each of them has done individually for the franchise, but it was never quite as good as it was when they worked together.

[FearlessLeader]

Granted, many haven't, myself included. However, I'm guessing those who do probably choose their words with care, because they know of his berserk buttons. I also doubt he goes to conventions advertising himself as "the guy behind Ninja Turtles," because of the risk of Fred Wolf fans screaming "Cowabunga" and the like at him.

Just so you know in real life outside of the internet I have never seen Peter have a "berserk button" actually I have never seen him online either but I digress. People act differently on the internet then they do face to face, I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you my own personal experiences with Peter.

I never choose my words carefully, in fact it was only a time or two I actually walked up to Peter to talk to him. I would usually hang around the Mirage table to talk to the rest the of the guys because Peter's always had an extremely long line of people. He would almost always take the time though of his own accord to come down by me to say "hello". I have no idea if he remembered me from con to con, but since he did this I am going to hazard that he at least recognized me as someone who was generally at their table and always had a Leonardo plush with her.

I would talk about all manner of things with Peter. I recall one time we even talked about Naruto of all things and he was always nothing but very polite and kind to me. I would hazard to say that if everyone on this Earth was judged for every comment they ever said online that no one with an internet connection would ever have any friends.

Also as I stated above Peter was at the Mirage Table so yes he was promoting his involvement with Turtles, and back in the early 2000's he loved talking about the franchise with people. He wanted to know people's stories he wanted to know how his characters had effected people's lives. Heck if I remembered correctly from the volume 4 comics that was how he got back into Turtles and decided to write the new comics was an event where someone told him how Turtles had changed their lives.

I don't mean to insult you, but frankly from your statements above you sound very uninformed about the reality of what the actual situation was. I feel you don't like Peter because of things he has said on the internet and that's fine. I have many actors I myself have deleted off of Twitter because I couldn't stand the things they said. I just want you to know that Peter is not quiet the heartless fiend you make him out to be. You have made up your mind so you may not believe me and that is also perfectly fine, it is your opinion after all. I just want you to have all the relevant and true facts before you make statements. :tsmile:



That's a valid point to some degree, but the mistreatment runs both ways; Peter Laird mistreated the old fandom, and when all was said and done, Laird feels it bit like a hypocrite to me. If you're going to ignore the Fred Wolf series in your new cartoon just because you'd rather follow the Mirage series, that's fine, but after a while it was obvious that motivation ceased to underline the 2003 show, and then Peter doomed the Mirage series by selling the license, which makes me think that he was ultimately more motivated by hatred of other people's take on his series than love of his own. That is not the right attitude for creative artists to take.

Or you know at the end of the run of 2k3 he could have just been burned out on the franchise and all the work and all the negative feelings from so many people (like he said just not in that many words he said he was just burned out) and he could have been trying to distance himself.

Maybe the reason Peter sold Turtles in the first place was he took a long look at the fact he needed a break and he didn't want the characters and their story to suffer because he couldn't carry the burden of supporting it anymore. I mean let's face it Peter is not a young guy, I can recall blog posts before the sale where Peter talked about going on bike rides around house and getting lost and worrying himself and I got the general impression from what he was saying Peter was not in the best health mentally or physically at that point.

Turtles was a big thing for Peter and a lot of it was his fault, because he is such a perfectionist and he did insist on making certain everything he put his stamp on was perfect in his eyes and I think that just added too much to his plate. You see through both the comics and the 2k3 show as the 2k7 film was getting ready to come out Peter just started burning out. Comics came out that Peter had never seen (that Leo and Radical one comes to mind), he stopped working on volume 4 and the 2k3 show started to change in direction.

I just want you to think about the fact that Peter is only one guy and he is human and just maybe he didn't do everything he did to be nasty to the people that didn't like his vision. I do think those nasty people did help burn him out. When you work hard on something and the most vocal people coming back at you about it are all telling you how much they dislike it, I really don't blame anyone for wanting to walk away from it.

And people were cruel to Peter. He was no angel himself I will readily admit, but I can recall a time on this forum where he couldn't breath without there being a thread about how "old and fat and stupid" he was. People got to the point where they weren't even attacking the work anymore but just him and the other guys at Mirage.

Do I think Peter is perfect, not by any means. But I stated that in my original comment. I just feel like people have always been unfair to him, since at least I got heavily back into fandom in 2001. I probably won't change your opinion of him, cause I know we have went back and forth on here before about him, and I am completely cool with that I just wanted to show you my perspective of who Peter is, from my personal experiences and observations, thank you for taking the time to read all of this even if you don't agree! :tsmile:

Also just to state I have also met Kevin a few times and he was just as nice to me as Peter and as a person I like him a lot too. Just to throw that out there!

[liugeaux]

As a fan I'm just really glad we have such a weird wide array of TMNT to enjoy and/or hate. Yeah, letting Saban do the Next Mutation was a mistake, but a really funny one that was more of a sign of the times than anything else. I loved what Laird did with the 2K3 show and loved Vol. 4 until it was never finished.

Eastman does seem like a yes man, but I'm sure I would be too if something I created was being spun off into weird iterations left and right. It would give me a big head and probably get me excited about my creations again. Remember, most of us would not be discussing the TMNT today had Fred Wolf not convinced E&L to compromise their original idea for the Turtles.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

As a fan I'm just really glad we have such a weird wide array of TMNT to enjoy and/or hate. Yeah, letting Saban do the Next Mutation was a mistake, but a really funny one that was more of a sign of the times than anything else. I loved what Laird did with the 2K3 show and loved Vol. 4 until it was never finished.

Eastman does seem like a yes man, but I'm sure I would be too if something I created was being spun off into weird iterations left and right. It would give me a big head and probably get me excited about my creations again. Remember, most of us would not be discussing the TMNT today had Fred Wolf not convinced E&L to compromise their original idea for the Turtles.

I have the book Batman And Me by Bob Kane, the Batman creator. He said that though a lot of people disliked the campy 1966 TV show, he credited it with reviving interest in Batman. Just as I'm sure that the TMNT would remain in obscurity if it weren't for the 1987 cartoon.

[Pterobat]

I'm on the side that believes Eastman and Laird are together the best of both worlds: open to "anything" / creating a consistent brand with integrity...to oversimplify what both men seem to offer (I've never met either in real life or talked with either online).

While I am not a Mirage purist at all, I still have a lot of empathy for Peter Laird and some of his attitudes and wishes. I think he helped put the 2k3 series on track, and his comments against aiming for the lowest common denominator strike a chord. He also seems to desire to create a consistent image for the Turtles, and I can understand his dislike of some of the other incarnations.

Gratitude for the exposure caused by these other versions isn't enough, in some cases, to erase the dislike of changes to one's own work.

Eastman seems more laid-back, and there are benefits to that.

[Konchadunga]

I'm not going to argue with Fearless Leader. I still find a lot of Laird's comments in his TMNT 2003 production notes to be rude, but if he has a nicer side, good for him.

Back on topic, can someone please provide some archived media displaying Eastman's involvement in The Next Mutation? I would like to read up on it?

[Venom]

Good stuff, good stuff...
He participated in the infamous Bodycount arc simply for the sake of working with Bode and creating "the longest gunfight in comics history."...more good stuff, etc.

Bisley, not Bode, Old Man. :trazz: