The criticims of the OT you often hear

[CyberCubed]

I hear this a lot, but I am not sure what its referring to.

If you mean:

- The lack of continuing storylines....well most kids shows back then were episodic. Even Batman: TAS can be watched out of order besides the villains debut episodes. In fact most of us never even watched Batman in proper order when it was airing. Same for TMNT.

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

- The lack of strong writing, this depends on what type of show you're expecting. The OT was designed to be a comedy series taking 50's sci-fi stories and making them for kids. I find most episodes of the OT enjoyable because of this reason...whatever wacky plot would come up in each new ep was something usually fun to watch.

- The lack of action...there is plenty of action in the OT. No, there weren't huge fight scenes that take up 10 minutes of an episode like modern cartoons, but even when there was no fighting there was action via explosions, guns, jumping through exploding buildings, and the like.

- The repetitive nature of the show. Again...this is no different than most shows of the era. The good guys always win, the bad guys are left vowing to do better next time. It isn't the fact that Shredder/Krang lost in every episode, its HOW we get to that point.



I'd go as far as say the OT was a social commentary and even a parordy of 80's superhero shows at the time with dry humor and a main cast that talked back to each other often.

I think it says quite a bit that adults who rediscover the show through DVDs like it more than they ever expected themselves to.

[rufus]

Ones I see most of the time, Mostly Comicbook sites and IMDB.

To silly.
To Stupid.
Its a stain on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[oldmanwinters]

Yeah, the OT is inherently ridiculous... but in a fun way. And the OT was often poorly written and poorly animated... not unlike most shows of its era.

But I hate the fact that some people stereotype it as more simplistic than it really was. As an adult who has gone back and watched the show heavily, I think it holds up as a fairly unique and non-formulaic 80s cartoon. Other shows that seem to be more respected by fans like Masters of the Universe, Thundercats, and Voltron were remarkably formulaic, leaned heavily on stock animation, and the episode conflicts were often easily resolved through the same gimmick. I like those shows too, but I also recognize that TMNT was different in a good way.

Furthermore, the TMNT had no Alpha Dog character like Optimus Prime, He-Man, Lion-O, or (to a lesser extent) Duke of G.I.Joe. Leonardo may have been the leader, but rarely did he ever dominate the screen time from the other turtles. Again, the old TMNT show was fairly unique in its balanced cast of main characters.

Some fans probably confuse the episodes with the toyline & video games and assume things like (A) Shredder & Krang try to take over the world, (B) the Foot kidnap April O'Neil and takes her prisoner in the Technodrome, or (C) the TMNT fight against a Mutant-of-the-Week working for Shredder happened every episode. But that's simply not the case. Each season has its own subtle continuity (the location of the Technodrome) and the villains often had very diverse motivations.

All that said, I still think the Turtles Forever parody with the Mutant Bananas wasn't that far-fetched when you think about the likelihood of something like that actually happening in the show if one of the writers had gotten the idea first. :tlol:

[CyberCubed]

One thing I loved is that the main characters actually TALKED BACK to one another and didn't all get along. They actually acted like real people, unlike some shows where the main cast is all bland and polite to each other.

It's why TMNT became so popular with kids, some episodes would have the Turtles cracking jokes among one another, Shredder would call Bebop/Rocksteady idiots, Donatello would sometimes get annoyed with the others, Raph would make some sarcastic quip.

I think the chemistry of the main cast, the villains, and the Channel 6 news crew was definitely the highlights of the series.

[Andrew NDB]

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

[oldmanwinters]

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

Oh, Andrew, there's nothing more you could say about the ol' FW series that would surprise me at this point. :trazz:

Also, you gave a conclusion to the Image series and are trying to do the same with the Multiverse up through Volume 4. I say you've earned quite a bit of cred in my book, regardless of how much we might disagree about this silly children's cartoon.

[Dirty Blond]

Isn't it against the rules to "bash" the OT on this message board?

Ban Andrew, LOL!

By the way, the main reason I got in to TMNT through the OT was because it never took itself seriously. I had no idea there was a comic at first because I wasn't interested in comics. But when I heard that it began as a comic book, I just assumed it was no longer around, as though they quit when the OT began.

Now, of course, I'm enjoying all the reprints!

[gobo]

"It's dumb" is the most specific complaint I ever hear. I don't try to change their minds, especially since I partially agree with them.

[CyberCubed]

If I get involved in this thread I'll likely lose more friends than usual around here.

After everything I've already seen you post I respect your opinion on the old show quite a bit.

But let me ask you this, if TMNT didn't start off as a comic and the cartoon was the first thing about it, and you had no comic to compare it to, how would you actually feel about it?

[Andrew NDB]

But let me ask you this, if TMNT didn't start off as a comic and the cartoon was the first thing about it, and you had no comic to compare it to, how would you actually feel about it?

If the Fred Wolf cartoon came first (and whether or not a Mirage comic existed afterward, at that point, would be irrelevant)... then that would be a big game changer. In fact, the Mirage material would seem to be a mockery of it, and be a farce in light of its intended campy creation.

But that's not how it played out.

[ZariusTwo]

If the Fred Wolf cartoon came first (and whether or not a Mirage comic existed afterward, at that point, would be irrelevant)... then that would be a big game changer. In fact, the Mirage material would seem to be a mockery of it, and be a farce in light of its intended campy creation.

But that's not how it played out.

I say it played out almost exactly the way you fantasized, seeing as the old 'toon is ten times more memorable and relevant in pop culture than the comics ever were or ever will be

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

One thing I loved is that the main characters actually TALKED BACK to one another and didn't all get along. They actually acted like real people, unlike some shows where the main cast is all bland and polite to each other.

It's why TMNT became so popular with kids, some episodes would have the Turtles cracking jokes among one another, Shredder would call Bebop/Rocksteady idiots, Donatello would sometimes get annoyed with the others, Raph would make some sarcastic quip.

I think the chemistry of the main cast, the villains, and the Channel 6 news crew was definitely the highlights of the series.

Not to mention all discussions at Channel 6.

[Logan]

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

I agree with you on continuity. When I rediscovered the show a couple of years back, I was pleasantly surprised as to the amount of references and consistencies with previous episodes. I'd wager it was one of the few shows to have such strong continuity at the time.

I say it played out almost exactly the way you fantasized, seeing as the old 'toon is ten times more memorable and relevant in pop culture than the comics ever were or ever will be

Oh boy. Those could be could fightin' words. No need for instigating.

[pannoni1]

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/ninja$20turtles$20worst$20saturday$20morning$20|so rt:date/rec.arts.anime/gnhILcuxYEQ/0uprUa7ZcPEJ

I found a comment from back in 1990 during the OT's heyday, and one person says that most action scenes stink, while another says this"

Now this show is one that REALLY makes me sick. Eastman and Laird created
TMNT as a spoof of all of the stupide cutesy little cartoons about super-
heroes. There was nothing comical about the turtles. They were
very dark characters, heroes who took things extremely seriously. They
seldom joked, and had a deep sense of the bushi (the warrior). What
this "CARTOON" as done was to turn TMNT into the one thing that Eastman
and Laird was making a spoof of. Makes me really nauseated.

I'd say he hit the nail on the head in that the OT was just a parody of what the original Turtles were. People say that there were too many liberties given from the origin story. However, I have no problem since it would be like taking a crime series and converting it to a sitcom version.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!search/tmnt$20saturday$20morning$20ghostbusters|sort:date/alt.cult-movies/ZwtUj4yikbE/bdWoMlJgXnwJ

However, not all criticism was bad, with one person saying that most Saturday morning stuff is (was) worse than TMNT.

[Spitfire]

The OT had poor writing there's really no arguing that. They recycled plots shamelessly. Just because other shows did it doesn't make it any better. Batman and Gargoyles might be some of the few that actually hold up.

[pferreira]

However, not all criticism was bad, with one person saying that most Saturday morning stuff is (was) worse than TMNT.I think I can honestly say the original series overall without a doubt was ten times better than Transformers, which was a toy line led cartoon more formulaic than Fred Wolf's show ever was. At least the latter had a variety of storylines and locations. The OT series is not the best 80s cartoon made but it certainly is one of the best ones, which is why I'm on this forum today. ;)

[cartoonistaaron]

I've gone back and watched the OT and I find the main characters to be well-designed and the voice acting fantastic. The music was also outstanding. The stories? Eh. It's definitely a kids' show but the voice acting elevates it - the show feels better than it really is. I never watched stuff like GI Joe or Transformers because everything - design, voice acting, music - seemed to take itself WAY too seriously.

I would say criticisms of the OT "kiddyfying" the TMNT are valid, but I also think the cartoon writers injected a ton of personality into the Turtles where not much existed before - especially regarding Donatello and Michaelangelo.

[Logan]

I would say criticisms of the OT "kiddyfying" the TMNT are valid

I don't think the blame should be placed solely on Fred Wolf and company. I'm sure Kevin and Peter knew what they were getting into. They decided to take the Turtles into toys and animation likely knowing that it would need to be lighter in order to market. So if anyone is to be blamed for the Turtles' "descent" into a cartoonish characterization, it's the original creators.

Keep in mind that I love the cartoon, so I'm not actually putting any blame on E & L for this business decision. I wouldn't have found the comics without the OT.

[Tomoshibi Amatsu]

I was a small kid at the time so I loved it being episodic. I don't think I would have been into something like 2K3 back then where I'd actually have to think and follow and overarching plot. It was nice that the continuity ws kept to a minimum in favor of shredder and krang pulling a Dr. Claw at the end of every episode.

I mean when people say Inspector Gadget should have had a plot they forget that it would have ruined the charm of the show. That's how I feel about the OT and why for the longest time I couldn't get into 2K3. There was a certain charm about it where I didn't care if it had a plot, and that just made it weird when I first watched 2K3. Sure I may think different looking back on it now but I wouldn't change the OT. The goofy, campy fun and episodic nature is what made me love the turtles and buy a crap ton of their merchandise back when I was a tot.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I hear this a lot, but I am not sure what its referring to.

If you mean:

- The lack of continuing storylines....well most kids shows back then were episodic. Even Batman: TAS can be watched out of order besides the villains debut episodes. In fact most of us never even watched Batman in proper order when it was airing. Same for TMNT.

- The lack of continuity...this I cannot agree with. If you watched the OT season by season you would know there actually is a sense of continuity going on throughout the whole series. Past characters and events are often brought up, old characters come back, and the Technodrome's location is always explained season by season.

- The lack of strong writing, this depends on what type of show you're expecting. The OT was designed to be a comedy series taking 50's sci-fi stories and making them for kids. I find most episodes of the OT enjoyable because of this reason...whatever wacky plot would come up in each new ep was something usually fun to watch.

- The lack of action...there is plenty of action in the OT. No, there weren't huge fight scenes that take up 10 minutes of an episode like modern cartoons, but even when there was no fighting there was action via explosions, guns, jumping through exploding buildings, and the like.

- The repetitive nature of the show. Again...this is no different than most shows of the era. The good guys always win, the bad guys are left vowing to do better next time. It isn't the fact that Shredder/Krang lost in every episode, its HOW we get to that point.



I'd go as far as say the OT was a social commentary and even a parordy of 80's superhero shows at the time with dry humor and a main cast that talked back to each other often.

I think it says quite a bit that adults who rediscover the show through DVDs like it more than they ever expected themselves to.

The bad dudes at least win in the first part of the Big Trilogy. But only temporary. :)

[CyberCubed]

I also hate how people claim it had a "mutant of the week" formula when the show introduced new mutants like once in a while.

I hate how people say Donatello wasn't the star since he save the day in almost every ep.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I also hate how people claim it had a "mutant of the week" formula when the show introduced new mutants like once in a while.

I hate how people say Donatello wasn't the star since he save the day in almost every ep.

The 2012 show seems to have a mutant of the week formula, if it continues this way. But that's another story.

And new mutants isn't the most common plot in the 1987. Power station break ins, required for Technodrome fuel, is the most common during the "core seasons" (3-7).

[Myths]

I think possibly the biggest complaints I heard came from Peter Laird himself concerning the OT:

“…had I (again, speaking solely for myself and not for Kevin) been making the key creative decisions for that first animated series, it would have been VERY different. Among other things, there would likely have been no moronic henchmen like Bebop and Rocksteady. The Shredder would have been seriously malevolent. April would not have been a reporter and constantly need to be rescued by the Turtles. The Turtles would not have been so ridiculously obsessed with pizza, and the Shredder would not have had as one of his businesses a restaurant called ‘Ninja Pizza’…And the show would not have had a joke or gag every five seconds.”

[ZariusTwo]

I think Pete and Kev's vision could have still worked in the 80s/90s, but a lot of the more "darker and edgier" cartoons of that type (like Sprial Zone, Exo Squad, Sonic SATAM, Bucky O'Hare, and Inhumanoids) were admitedly pretty niche back then, despite their cult followings now.

[CyberCubed]

I think possibly the biggest complaints I heard came from Peter Laird himself concerning the OT:

“…had I (again, speaking solely for myself and not for Kevin) been making the key creative decisions for that first animated series, it would have been VERY different. Among other things, there would likely have been no moronic henchmen like Bebop and Rocksteady. The Shredder would have been seriously malevolent. April would not have been a reporter and constantly need to be rescued by the Turtles. The Turtles would not have been so ridiculously obsessed with pizza, and the Shredder would not have had as one of his businesses a restaurant called ‘Ninja Pizza’…And the show would not have had a joke or gag every five seconds.”

A lot of this is just petty though.

Strange how he let the 4kids writers make so many changes to the Mirage storylines and add in so many new characters, yet when the OT did it he didn't mind.

[Jephael]

Oh I'm sure he minded, but it was making them a butt-load of money, so he didn't complain!

[Venom]

A lot of this is just petty though.

Strange how he let the 4kids writers make so many changes to the Mirage storylines and add in so many new characters, yet when the OT did it he didn't mind.

Well, you have to remember that while Pete and Kevin did pore over scripts in the first few seasons, after a while they pretty much gave up because changes were being made on Fred Wolf's end irregardless of their decisions.

[CyberCubed]

Well, you have to remember that while Pete and Kevin did pore over scripts in the first few seasons, after a while they pretty much gave up because changes were being made on Fred Wolf's end irregardless of their decisions.

But remember when the OT was airing, the Mirage universe was in its infancy.

What did they have at the time? Maybe 10 Mirage Issues and the barely starting Tales of the TMNT?

People tend to forget when the OT was being made the Mirage comics had only a handful of issues.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

But remember when the OT was airing, the Mirage universe was in its infancy.

What did they have at the time? Maybe 10 Mirage Issues and the barely starting Tales of the TMNT?

People tend to forget when the OT was being made the Mirage comics had only a handful of issues.

Volume 1 was under publication back then.

[CyberCubed]

I think the OT also deserves credit for making Baxter Stockman into a major character.

In Mirage he was literally treated as a one-shot character because he didn't return from issue #2 all the way until Volume 2 which was nearly a decade later.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think the OT also deserves credit for making Baxter Stockman into a major character.

In Mirage he was literally treated as a one-shot character because he didn't return from issue #2 all the way until Volume 2 which was nearly a decade later.

1992 saw his second appearance, and his first one since 1985, I've heard.

[Refractive Reflections]

It's interesting SO many put in the lack of continuity as a significant problem in the OT, but it did have subtle continuity such as with the location of the Technodrome, or explaining why the Technodrome was wherever, and the characters breaking the fourth wall and referring to a previous episode as the previous posts have all mentioned earlier.

I think what A LOT of hypercritical viewers of the OT forget is that this was designed for a audience of children and you have to remember it was the late 80s/early 90s. So you don't have the internet to watch previous episodes and remember your dealing with the attention span of 6-12 year olds to follow continuing story plots. ALSO remember that kids don't have the option of going home or watching TV whenever they want to such as we do as adults. They are susceptible to whatever their parents' schedules/discipline/mood are for the day and could not easily watch the cartoon daily for 5-6 days/week.

Imagine how frustrating it would be as a kid, if you watched the cartoon in 1989 on a Monday but your parents had to drag you to groceries on Tuesday, then you had sports practice on Wednesday, were able to watch on Thursday, but then you had to go to a friend's house on Friday (who wanted to watch/play something else than TMNT) and then be able to wake up early on Saturday. You would be missing 3 days worth of plots and you would be frustrated wondering," How did they get there? But I thought this happened? But why? UGH!" And remember there was NO internet back then to watch previous episodes, and you would have to go through the trouble of setting up your VCR to automatically record it (IF YOUR VCR had that capability) or spend more of your parents money to buy/rent a video cassette of it. Yeah right, which kid has the patience for that??? And how many parents would tolerate their kid to "waste" their money on following a cartoon plot? And to top it all off, there were disorganized repeated airings of the show. Therefore, it makes sense for the cartoon to have self-contained plots in one episode, but at least each passing season demonstrated some continuity. It was good balance of progressing the cartoon, but not making it so complex that it frustrated the viewer if they couldn't catch a few episodes because of "life" occurring.

As for the repetitive nature of the show of the good guys winning...since when did any heroic adventure show NOT have the good guys win at the end of the show/story-arc? Batman, Superman, G.I. Joe, Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, X-Men, Transformers, blah blah blah.

With my expectations and it seems with some others, when it comes to children's cartoons...its low because its for kids, but surprisingly OT TMNT had exceed that significantly as others have posted as to why (as with other cartoons, for me personally, such as Tiny Toons, Garfield & Friends, and Animaniacs). These cartoons I cherish because they were clever and witty and the writers/staff actually put SOME effort into it unlike others where they were SOLELY focused on the merchandising. If the OT was as pathetic as some cynics have stated, they still have to deal with the UNDERLYING and UNDENIABLE fact that it made TMNT into a mainstream phenomena with merchandising that even captivated ADULTS. How many children's cartoons have done that? You have to give the OT credit for that though, minimally...

For others, it seems like their expectations/comparisons are from the OT vs. the comics...which is unfair. Yes, in comparison to the gritty/dark Mirage comics the OT is trivial and silly, but comparing the OT with other children's cartoons...its a legend.

...If you're expecting a dramatic, angst-filled, gory battle rampant in a kid's cartoon...bigger question is, why are you expecting all of that in it then??? It's a kid's cartoon people...

[D-Nizzy]

2k3 did a great job. And the new Nick series is striking an interesting balance between silly and gritty.

I love the original series for what it is, and it probably took an evolution in children's programming in order for shows like 2k3 to get produced, but the OT does have some groan-worthy flaws.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The 1987 TMNT show was mostly aimed to be kids and family-friendly.

The 2003 and 2012 shows are for kids too, but I doubt they would be created at all if the 1987 show didn't create the strong fan-base it had, and most of them were no longer kids in 2003.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I agree with the critics, the OT is silly and painful to watch at times.

HOWEVER, I feel the characters it created/ developed are more interesting than a lot of the 'darker, grittier' characters from mirage. I also feel that they are just as important- if not more so- than many of the ones mirage had. And there are value in those characters beyond. "Duhhh, nostalgia", and they can- and should- return!

Yes, mirage came first, but the idea that it is the definitve turtles- and any concept not orignally from there is worthless- is a fallacy. The sourse material is not the only place concepts that exist across versions can originate. Krytonite, The Daily planet, Jimmy olsen as Jimmy olsen, and Perry white all first appeared in the Superman Radio Show, and bled back into the comic.