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View Full Version : What would u do Differently do make this forgotten show more Appealing to the public?


alliance
07-10-2013, 06:39 PM
As we know 6 people knew about this series and even less people now, if u can go back in Time what would u have changed to expose this cartoon to more people, im sure some of you are more than happy with it and wouldn't change anything and that's fine but is there anything u would have done differently perhaps.. ideas/improvements of certain seasons and/or scenerios storylines that would've been nice to try..

Luckyday
07-10-2013, 07:03 PM
I would hire Greg Cipes as Michelangelo

I would take the propose design of the WB layout for the turtles
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3481/4090237024_75ac2a0da2_o.jpg

And take a step farther and make each of them even more different from each other.

I don't know. I might change the entire cast and use the nick's. It would help if the cast were made of a union cause it's a noticeable difference if they're unionized or not.

CyberCubed
07-10-2013, 07:55 PM
As we know 6 people knew about this series and even less people now,

Are you sick? Each episode of the 4kids series had millions of viewers. The show was also rerun on Cartoon Network back in 2005-2006.

TheSkeletonMan939
07-10-2013, 08:18 PM
As we know 6 people knew about this series and even less people now

Either you have trouble with counting or you have been grossly misinformed.

Although honestly, if anything I would have tightened up season three's storyline a bit. It's my favorite season, but I thought it would have been great if it was revealed in SAINW that the divergence in the timeline was the turtles not making the jump at the end of Exodus - Part 1. Donnie - in his own timeline - would learn about the rocketship Ch'Rell was building and would figure out that this was the same ship that caused the divergence in SAINW. He'd be the one to force the others to make the jump at the end of the episode.

It really wouldn't change much, but it'd be a cool little story moment.

Bossa Nova
07-10-2013, 08:26 PM
I'm not going to touch that whole "6 people knew about it" garbage, but if I were to change anything about it, it would have been the network it was playing on. Nickelodeon is SO great for turtle exposure now since pretty much every kid I know watches it (along with Disney). I know that's why it took me so long to getting around to watching it, largely because I never knew what channel it aired on.

I also probably would have nixed a lot of the Justice Force (League?) stuff. It made the show feel way more "superhero" than...I don't know "ninja turtles". I also totally dig how in the later season the turtles were individualized just a bit from each other, so it would've been nice overall to have taken those details and meshed it with the earlier seasons' art style. Also getting rid of Season 5 altogether.

Overall though, I'm pretty pleased with this entire show. There's always going to be crap from each version people don't like, but for me the good definitely outweighs the bad and still beats any other turtle series I've watched.

Redeemer
07-10-2013, 10:13 PM
Although honestly, if anything I would have tightened up season three's storyline a bit. It's my favorite season, but I thought it would have been great if it was revealed in SAINW that the divergence in the timeline was the turtles not making the jump at the end of Exodus - Part 1. Donnie - in his own timeline - would learn about the rocketship Ch'Rell was building and would figure out that this was the same ship that caused the divergence in SAINW. He'd be the one to force the others to make the jump at the end of the episode.

It really wouldn't change much, but it'd be a cool little story moment.

See this would have made the story ten times better and would have cemented SAINw into TMNT history.

What I would have done,
-Is take out all the majic BS in Season 5 and would have given it more of a mortal Kombat vibe. TMNT in 1 on 1 fights for the earths survival against the best fighters in the history of the foot clan including the original shredder.

-Made the shredder more of a Title or Mantle.
-I would have given Rat King a few more episodes or at least his own arc.
-Brought Slash in as an Agent Bishop experiment.
- Would have the tone from Seasons 1-5, instead of the dramatic change in season 6 and 7
The series was pretty damn good, only complaint is too much Majic in Season 5 and the changes they mad in season 6 and 7

Coola Yagami
07-10-2013, 11:20 PM
Give the people what they wanted. A human Shredder that could kick ass. One decapitation scene did not justify re-writing the character. Characters from the old show coming back in bad-ass form.

I kinda felt around the time with the new He-Man basically re-booting the series but still keeping the core characters intact, 80's TMNT fans that never heard or read the Mirage comics were disappointed or alienated with all the 'changes' in the show, and not seeing a more bad-ass version of the classic TMNT VS Shredder/Bebop/Rocksteady/Krang thing.
I remember every time something different happened, like with the Shredder clones or whatever, I had to explain 'because that's the way it happened in the comics'.

If they were gonna do the comics, do it right. I hated how they jumped back and forth with the order of stuff. Leaving out Zog during the Return of New York only to bring him back in some random episode about Robot Foot Soldiers. If they didn't wanna deal with the Triceratons so soon, make a few episodes with the Foot and whatever before beforer you introduce the TCRI building so things can happen in the proper order. And turning City at War into a 3-parter that didn't even have the Foot fighting against each other was also a waste of time.

No demon Shredder. No notes from underground. No Guardians stuff. The Matrix was cool and all back then but it seriously dated the cartoon now. And again, when Leo ran into one of the Guardians during the Return to New York story, I was like 'wtf is this crap?' and then they had Shredder attack them with his magic alien sword. It was just weird and out of place.

Redeemer
07-10-2013, 11:28 PM
Give the people what they wanted. A human Shredder that could kick ass. One decapitation scene did not justify re-writing the character. Characters from the old show coming back in bad-ass form.

I kinda felt around the time with the new He-Man basically re-booting the series but still keeping the core characters intact, 80's TMNT fans that never heard or read the Mirage comics were disappointed or alienated with all the 'changes' in the show, and not seeing a more bad-ass version of the classic TMNT VS Shredder/Bebop/Rocksteady/Krang thing.


I completely dissagree, I never heard about the MIrage comics when I was watching this series when it was airing. I found out about the comics at the end or after the run.
I did not feel alienated at all.

Coola Yagami
07-10-2013, 11:36 PM
I completely dissagree, I never heard about the MIrage comics when I was watching this series when it was airing. I found out about the comics at the end or after the run.
I did not feel alienated at all.

of course, I can't speak for everyone. But there were lots of fans of the old toon that were expecting it to be the return of the classic show just taken more seriously and with the intense martial arts action that the 80's wouldn't allow due to censorship and animation budget. And they were sorely dissappointed.

I kinda think the new show rocks immensely for the general tmnt populus since it mixes the silliness and comedy of the 80's show with the more ninja-inspired action of the 2K3 series. 2K3 went too serious and forgot how to have fun.

Drose18
07-10-2013, 11:42 PM
As we know 6 people knew about this series and even less people now, if u can go back in Time what would u have changed to expose this cartoon to more people, im sure some of you are more than happy with it and wouldn't change anything and that's fine but is there anything u would have done differently perhaps.. ideas/improvements of certain seasons and/or scenerios storylines that would've been nice to try..

First of all it was very big i was a kid when it came out and most of the kids at my school watched it so dont go around saying its forgotten or unloved or any of that bs. There are some things I would change I would have stretched out season 5 to be around 26 episodes or so with character development with the ninja tribunal.

CyberCubed
07-11-2013, 12:02 AM
of course, I can't speak for everyone. But there were lots of fans of the old toon that were expecting it to be the return of the classic show just taken more seriously and with the intense martial arts action that the 80's wouldn't allow due to censorship and animation budget. And they were sorely dissappointed.

I kinda think the new show rocks immensely for the general tmnt populus since it mixes the silliness and comedy of the 80's show with the more ninja-inspired action of the 2K3 series. 2K3 went too serious and forgot how to have fun.

Those people were idiots though. I don't even consider them TMNT fans, they were likely just kids caught up in the fad of the franchise in the 90's and then drifted from the property and never came back. So when they heard a new cartoon was starting they didn't understand why it was so different so they never returned.

I'm betting those same people didn't even re-visit the original toon as adults, they just base what they know about it from their faded childhood memories.

Luckyday
07-11-2013, 12:09 AM
I would have also like to fixed the character arc of Karai. I get that she suppose to have "between a rock and a hard place" sort of conflict with her father and the turtles but I thought that the writers really drop a ball on delivering it. It end up feeling very random.

Shark_Blade
07-11-2013, 12:12 AM
Not making Shredder an utrom. Thats a major let down for me and I didnt care much for the series after that.

Luckyday
07-11-2013, 12:18 AM
Not making Shredder an utrom. Thats a major let down for me and I didnt care much for the series after that.

Yes but that might have been a trade off to see him beheaded by Leo.

InsaneZane
07-11-2013, 12:32 AM
-Air it on Cartoon Network (or Nickelodeon) instead of FOX
-Pay for way more toy commercials and have more variety toy lines; i have a lot of figures but there were a lot of missed opportunities with the show especially by the time it was in BttS.
-have more time slots for repeats; 4kids hardly ever had regular repeats aside from when the show was new in 2k3 or when it was between seasons.
- Let Shredder stay human through the whole show; believe it or not I know people who stopped watching because he was practically Krang in a Shredder suit. I love TMNT with all my heart and even I lost my spirits for the show when they revealed that. They wanted it to be an awesome revelation, but what they really did was jump the shark.:tcry:
-If you're going for a dark tone stick with it, if youre going for a funny tone stick with it. at times this show was really unbalanced with the mixture; It was better at its dark toned features so it should have had less jokes. which leads me back to the Cartoon Network thing, maybe a Primetime timeslot instead of mornings (not including repeats) maybe even during Adult Swim.
That wouldve been bad@SS because they could have appealed more to teens (hence the 1st T. in TMNT) instead of for kids (4kids:trolleye:) and ultimately they would have been able to show more on cable instead of FOX. Then that would have lead to:
-Airing the episodes in order!; airing "Insane in the Membrane" and "Ninja Tribunal" correctly in chronological order. Maybe if all these things happened we would have even got to see "Nightmares Recycled" made into a finished filler episode. (Even though I believe that filler slot should have originally been written as something else like Rat King part 2)
-Finally, Scrap ideas like "Fast Forward" and "Back to the Sewers"; if the continuity was done right, it would have been more popular and contemplating ideas like these would have been useless. On the same note if the continuity was done right, and they still did FF and BttS, it very well may have been received better by fans. Which would of course lead to the show lasting longer. (It was kind of obvious how the last episode was just written off.)

Pterobat
07-11-2013, 01:13 AM
Karai's arc would have a finish, and would end in her refusing Leo's overtures of friendship once and for all, and going full-tilt supervillain. It would end in her defeat, but she would go out as a GOOD villain, unlike the actual series where she was constantly played by other villains and ends up battered into nothing.

Also, she doesn't hook up with Chaplin.

No Tengu Shredder. Cyber Shredder might get a pass since he's the extension of Ch'rell, but the first Shredder is the big damn daddy Shredder, and that's the deal...with an exception for Karai taking the armour.

A better, longer explanation for why Bishop has changed so much in the future. Devote a few episodes to it, tie it into the Fast Forward story arc of your choice.

Ditto for leading up to Stockman's change of heart in "Head of State". I love the idea, but I felt it was really rushed.

Refractive Reflections
07-11-2013, 03:04 AM
"6 people knew about this series".... :lol: alliance, you so crazy. :P

Anyways, I think you would have to read the numerous threads just on this 4Kids forum on why it was not appealing for some: Mikey's poor iteration (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=36318), Leo being considered "boring" by some (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=42992), unfinished character arcs, Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers seasons (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=43166), Shredder being Ch'rell or disliking Ch'rell's character (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=34250), the polarizing Ninja Tribunal Season (Season 5) (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=42611), etc.

Here's a couple of my major viewpoints:
While I feel 2K3 Leo got a lot of deep story writing and development, I also feel sometimes that he got too much of it in comparison to his other brothers like Raphael and Michelangelo. (Those versions of Raph and Mikey I don't really like at all, they are probably the most grating versions of them.)

It seemed as if Leo got the deepest and heavier aspects of the episode/series, while Raph and Mikey were secluded to staying within the lighter comedic side of things, which I felt shortchanged their characters. I'm not saying Raph and Mikey didn't have their deep moments, but it just seemed... unbalanced.

I think because of 2K3 Leo getting so much of the deeper story lines, on top of an already darker/serious toned series, is why some may consider this version of him a bore. At least in the OT and 2012 versions, we saw some lighter aspects of Leonardo's personality more often.

And I agree with most of the viewpoints supporting poor Mikey iteration: Is 4Kids Michelangelo the worst iteration of the character? (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=36318)

Coola Yagami
07-11-2013, 06:32 AM
Those people were idiots though. I don't even consider them TMNT fans, they were likely just kids caught up in the fad of the franchise in the 90's and then drifted from the property and never came back. So when they heard a new cartoon was starting they didn't understand why it was so different so they never returned.

I'm betting those same people didn't even re-visit the original toon as adults, they just base what they know about it from their faded childhood memories.

Don't generalize. People can be hardcore fans of one series and not necessarily like an updated version. Some were huge fans of the 80s show and never heard of mirage and were let down that this version didn't have a more bad ass technodrome and bebop and rocksteady and etc. being a fan doesn't mean taking all the crap they throw at you with a smile.

I'm as hardcore as it gets when it comes to tmnt and even I would have turned down the 2012 show if it turned out to be like spongebob.

BubblyShell22
07-11-2013, 08:39 AM
Hmm, what I would change would be this:

1. Make it to where Mikey doesn't win the BN tournament or if he does, make it to where he's not a self-centered jerk about it and constantly rubs it in his brothers' faces.

2. Air it on Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon so more people will know about it.

3. Scrap Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer entirely. Both of them were horrible and could have been done better. I think FF's downfall was the fact that they skipped the Ninja Tribunal arc in favor of FF and that's why a lot of people weren't fond of it. If they would have aired the Ninja Tribunal arc properly, I'm sure FF would have been better received. I think with FF I would scrap that lame battle cry and the lame villains like Jammerhead and Triple Threat. Keep Sho'kanabo, The Dark Turtles, and Darius though.

4. With BTTS, get rid of Serling and don't have Splinter be trapped in cyberspace as well as getting rid of Cyber Shredder.

5. Have character development for all of the Turtles instead of just a select few. It seems like Leo got a lot of development in season 4 and FF was devoted to mostly Mikey and Donnie while Raph just complained about how he hated the future. And even if you have an episode dedicated to one Turtle, I would make it where the others still had a chance to shine like they do with the Nick series.

So, those are the things I can think of. If I think of more, I'll add them.

CyberCubed
07-11-2013, 09:26 AM
Hmm, what I would change would be this:

1. Make it to where Mikey doesn't win the BN tournament or if he does, make it to where he's not a self-centered jerk about it and constantly rubs it in his brothers' faces.

2. Air it on Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon so more people will know about it.

3. Scrap Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer entirely. Both of them were horrible and could have been done better. I think FF's downfall was the fact that they skipped the Ninja Tribunal arc in favor of FF and that's why a lot of people weren't fond of it. If they would have aired the Ninja Tribunal arc properly, I'm sure FF would have been better received. I think with FF I would scrap that lame battle cry and the lame villains like Jammerhead and Triple Threat. Keep Sho'kanabo, The Dark Turtles, and Darius though.

4. With BTTS, get rid of Serling and don't have Splinter be trapped in cyberspace as well as getting rid of Cyber Shredder.

5. Have character development for all of the Turtles instead of just a select few. It seems like Leo got a lot of development in season 4 and FF was devoted to mostly Mikey and Donnie while Raph just complained about how he hated the future. And even if you have an episode dedicated to one Turtle, I would make it where the others still had a chance to shine like they do with the Nick series.

So, those are the things I can think of. If I think of more, I'll add them.

Nobody cares that FF was aired ahead of Season 5 anymore. That's ancient history at this point and it doesn't matter. That has nothing to do with FF reception now.

InsaneZane
07-11-2013, 10:28 AM
Nobody cares that FF was aired ahead of Season 5 anymore. That's ancient history at this point and it doesn't matter. That has nothing to do with FF reception now.

actually you are dead wrong... big surprise cc. i said the same thing in my post that airing the eps out of order effectively killed the while show to paraphrase what i said.

i care, so you're wrong

miru
07-11-2013, 10:35 AM
Make the toys more pose able and/or less sleek. Add more characters to the toys, like Renet. Do more versions of April,Casey, Hun, Karai, and Bishop.

BubblyShell22
07-11-2013, 11:38 AM
Nobody cares that FF was aired ahead of Season 5 anymore. That's ancient history at this point and it doesn't matter. That has nothing to do with FF reception now.

Maybe not, but the fact that it aired ahead of season 5 was the reason many fans didn't like it, including me, so I would have changed it and made it air after season 5. I think that would have made it better as well as the other changes to FF that I stated.

Coola Yagami
07-11-2013, 01:33 PM
Nobody cares that FF was aired ahead of Season 5 anymore. That's ancient history at this point and it doesn't matter. That has nothing to do with FF reception now.

Yes it does matter. Now does not matter. You can take all the things people said so far in this topic and also say 'they don't matter now'. We're talking about back then. What would you have done differently back then. Not now. So yes, people not liking how fast forward replaced season 5 did matter a lot back then.

CyberCubed
07-11-2013, 04:38 PM
actually you are dead wrong... big surprise cc. i said the same thing in my post that airing the eps out of order effectively killed the while show to paraphrase what i said.

i care, so you're wrong

It doesn't matter at this point. Nobody will even know the seasons aired out of order except for us older fans who were watching as it was originally airing. The DVD sets are separate and newcomers to the series won't even know about this.

Also apparently FF's ratings were higher than Seasons 4, 5 and 7 so it definitely did more good for the show as it was on. Otherwise Season 4 might have been the end.

InsaneZane
07-11-2013, 11:20 PM
Maybe not, but the fact that it aired ahead of season 5 was the reason many fans didn't like it, including me, so I would have changed it and made it air after season 5. I think that would have made it better as well as the other changes to FF that I stated.

Yes it does matter. Now does not matter. You can take all the things people said so far in this topic and also say 'they don't matter now'. We're talking about back then. What would you have done differently back then. Not now. So yes, people not liking how fast forward replaced season 5 did matter a lot back then.

It doesn't matter at this point. Nobody will even know the seasons aired out of order except for us older fans who were watching as it was originally airing. The DVD sets are separate and newcomers to the series won't even know about this.

Also apparently FF's ratings were higher than Seasons 4, 5 and 7 so it definitely did more good for the show as it was on. Otherwise Season 4 might have been the end.

look at the above posts, cc :roll: if you use your brain. i made my point.

Redeemer
07-11-2013, 11:44 PM
look at the above posts, cc :roll: if you use your brain. i made my point.

Who says he has a brain :P
JK cc, but your still wrong Cyber

Coola Yagami
07-12-2013, 06:20 AM
That's another thing I would have done differently. Put the DVDs in order and eventually sell box sets. And either air the uncut turtles forever or at least sell the uncut version on DVD.

Whatswiththeheadbands?
07-12-2013, 03:43 PM
That's another thing I would have done differently. Put the DVDs in order and eventually sell box sets. And either air the uncut turtles forever or at least sell the uncut version on DVD.

I have the uncut version on DVD.

Coola Yagami
07-12-2013, 05:22 PM
I have the uncut version on DVD.

Well I meant American DVD.

ABrown
07-13-2013, 10:11 AM
I think that the show's time slot made it a little tougher for adults (who probably would've enjoyed the show) to catch episodes. It's too bad that it didn't last on Cartoon Network. I know adults who I think would've really enjoyed the show, but I think they didn't get enough exposure to the show due to its morning time slot.

Leo656
07-13-2013, 05:51 PM
That's actually a very good point. When the 2K3 show came out I told a bunch of guys I worked with/had gone to high school with there was a new TMNT show coming out, and they were all super-excited until I said it was on Saturday mornings, which got a response of "F*ck that, Saturday mornings I'm still drunk or hung over, I'm not getting up early to watch cartoons."

Keep in mind this was before DVRs (or Tivo) were in use like they are now, and setting the VCR was an inconvenience not too many fans wanted to bother with, I guess. I mean, I did it, and I know others did too, but I bet a lot didn't. Since a good chunk of TMNT fans were in the 18-25 range back then, I'd also bet that many had the same "too hung over" issue, as well. Young people tend to prioritize alcohol and drugs over cartoons, generally speaking. It might have had better ratings in a different time slot; wasn't that era pretty much the "last gasp" of Saturday morning cartoons, anyway? They're extinct now.

I have serious issues with this show being called "forgotten" or "not good" or whatever, but I'm not gonna bother with that. It was different from the OT in a lot of good ways, and some people were only going to watch it if it was an exact rehash of the '80s show, so f*ck those people. If they can't leave the past in the past and still enjoy it for what it is/was, while embracing something new, different, but still the same thing, then who cares what they think? They're destined to go through life unhappy. Pandering to them would have "fixed" nothing.

Xav
07-13-2013, 07:35 PM
It doesn't matter at this point. Nobody will even know the seasons aired out of order except for us older fans who were watching as it was originally airing. The DVD sets are separate and newcomers to the series won't even know about this.

Also apparently FF's ratings were higher than Seasons 4, 5 and 7 so it definitely did more good for the show as it was on. Otherwise Season 4 might have been the end.Unless they check Wikipedia. If the FF ratings were so good then why did they scrap a second season of FF in favor of BTTS?

CyberCubed
07-13-2013, 07:40 PM
Unless they check Wikipedia. If the FF ratings were so good then why did they scrap a second season of FF in favor of BTTS?

Because the 2007 movie hit and they wanted to bring them back to modern NY. That's why the toyline became all movie figures at that point.

Genesis
07-14-2013, 01:15 AM
I have serious issues with this show being called "forgotten" or "not good" or whatever, but I'm not gonna bother with that. It was different from the OT in a lot of good ways, and some people were only going to watch it if it was an exact rehash of the '80s show, so f*ck those people. If they can't leave the past in the past and still enjoy it for what it is/was, while embracing something new, different, but still the same thing, then who cares what they think? They're destined to go through life unhappy. Pandering to them would have "fixed" nothing.Truth. It has been written.

CyberCubed
07-14-2013, 08:58 AM
Its obviously not forgotten since everyone knows it exists. People even remember Next Mutation still exists, and that show only had one season and was canceled nearly 15 years ago.

Coola Yagami
07-14-2013, 02:03 PM
Forgotten doesn't mean it never existed. Just means we don't care for the time being. Perhaps after 2012 is said and done, people will look back at the 2K3 series... but for now, yes, it's all about the 2012 version baby! For now 2K3 is the series that we will 'leave in the past'.

CyberCubed
07-14-2013, 03:23 PM
You guys are confusing fad status with a well liked show. Nothing will ever reach the OT's popularity just like Power Rangers and Pokemon were never as popular as their first few seasons.

That's just how fads work. TMNT is no different.

Coola Yagami
07-15-2013, 07:51 AM
Noone's confusing everything. It's just time to leave that show in the past and enjoy the new one. Perhaps later whenever they release box sets of the series we can enjoy it once again. But for now let the show become a memory.

Leo656
07-16-2013, 01:21 AM
I still prefer it over the Nick show so far, so I'll silently disregard your advice. :lol:

BubblyShell22
07-16-2013, 08:36 AM
As cool as 2K3 was, I definitely think the Nick show is doing great right now, so I'm going to focus on that one as it's an awesome blend of both universes.

tmntpower1988
07-16-2013, 10:29 AM
As we know 6 people knew about this series and even less people now, if u can go back in Time what would u have changed to expose this cartoon to more people, im sure some of you are more than happy with it and wouldn't change anything and that's fine but is there anything u would have done differently perhaps.. ideas/improvements of certain seasons and/or scenerios storylines that would've been nice to try..

6 people? You're mad, there's a padded cell waiting for you with your name wrote all over it lol

I still prefer it over the Nick show so far, so I'll silently disregard your advice. :lol:

2003 series all the way. It's the best of the three. I'm liking the Nick show more than the OT. The OT does bring back child hood memories but I just don't seem to enjoy it as much anymore.

CyberCubed
07-16-2013, 01:24 PM
If we're speaking strictly of the first seasons, then yeah I enjoyed the 4kids series more than the Nick show. I was absolutely blown away by "The Shredder Strikes" "Shredder Strikes Back" and "Return to New York."

Nick has been good so far, but some of the one-off fillers against random mutants isn't so interesting to me.

Galactus
07-17-2013, 10:43 AM
Unless they check Wikipedia. If the FF ratings were so good then why did they scrap a second season of FF in favor of BTTS?

Toys.

The movie toys sold quite well and everyone involved suddenly saw it was rather silly to have a movie out that was drasticaly different from the animated series. That's why BTTS had turtles with pupils and had the the turtles routinely wearing outfits of the movie varients.

Plus I think it's fair to say Laird preferred the turtles returning to something more akin the previous seasons.