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View Full Version : Why do people think Ch'rell wasn't planned in the 4Kids cartoon?


Keldor1578
08-14-2013, 03:16 PM
There are turtles fans who believe Ch'rell wasn't planned from the beginning, and than it was a last minute decision to make Oroku Saki into an utrom in season two. In season one it was hinted connection between him and the utroms.

Prowler
08-14-2013, 03:25 PM
People actually believe that? How would they explain the ending of "Return to New York Part 3" then?

ABrown
08-14-2013, 03:55 PM
I'm one of the few who truly belive that it wasn't originally planned for Shredder to be an utrom. It's my belief that the first season was either completed, or near completed, when the decision was made to have the Shredder be an utrom. Here's couple of pieces of evidence that I provide:

Saki is drinking tea (or something) in the first episode. Why? Does his exosuit enjoy a good cup of tea?
I believe it was in the episode "Search For Splinter: Part 1" that the head guardian is shocked when he thinks that Shredder is still alive after the Leonardo cut off the utrom exosuit's head. Why would he think that an utrom would be dead from having it's exosuit's head cut off?

And the biggest reason that I don't think that he was supposed to be an utrom: I just don't buy it. Ch'rell is going to spend the whole first season chasing after the turtles, when he should be attacking TCRI? Oh wait, he didn't know that the utroms were hiding there. But April is able to a little internet search and find out that the guy running TCRI is a guy named "Mortu", which coincidently is the name of Ch'rell's enemy. Something isn't adding up here...

Coola Yagami
08-14-2013, 03:59 PM
I'm one of the few who truly belive that it wasn't originally planned for Shredder to be an utrom. It's my belief that the first season was either completed, or near completed, when the decision was made to have the Shredder be an utrom. Here's couple of pieces of evidence that I provide:

Saki is drinking tea (or something) in the first episode. Why? Does his exosuit enjoy a good cup of tea?
I believe it was in the episode "Search For Splinter: Part 1" that the head guardian is shocked when he thinks that Shredder is still alive after the Leonardo cut off the utrom exosuit's head. Why would he think that an utrom would be dead from having it's exosuit's head cut off?

And the biggest reason that I don't think that he was supposed to be an utrom: I just don't buy it. Ch'rell is going to spend the whole first season chasing after the turtles, when he should be attacking TCRI? Oh wait, he didn't know that the utroms were hiding there. But April is able to a little internet search and find out that the guy running TCRI is a guy named "Mortu", which coincidently is the name of Ch'rell's enemy. Something isn't adding up here...

I would take the second example as a plot hole, and I would take the third example as them 'not thinking it through'. But that first example... yeah. There's no excusing that. That's either a huge screw up from someone in the writing department that didn't know about 'the big reveal', or it animated and shipped out before they decided to go with it. Ch'Rell basically drowned himself in boiling hot tea.

Prowler
08-14-2013, 04:10 PM
I would take the second example as a plot hole, and I would take the third example as them 'not thinking it through'. But that first example... yeah. There's no excusing that. That's either a huge screw up from someone in the writing department that didn't know about 'the big reveal', or it animated and shipped out before they decided to go with it. Ch'Rell basically drowned himself in boiling hot tea.
But remember that Oroku Saki was supposed to be a respected businessmen. Naturally he got invited for dinners and such from time to time. If he didn't eat or drink like a regular human being it would look pretty damn fishy.

Coola Yagami
08-14-2013, 04:32 PM
Well true... but that falls under the 'don't overthink it because it's a cartoon' category. Or we can stretch it and make some excuse where he would excuse himself from dinner, say he wasn't hungry etc etc. The tea scene has no excuse since we actually see him drink it.

That is another thing that ruins it. Ch'rell is such a hateful ball of rage. I don't see him having the patience to attend a dinner and actually sit through it, even if he knows it's 'part of the act' and important for him to earn respect and a good reputation.

Keldor1578
08-14-2013, 04:45 PM
Well true... but that falls under the 'don't overthink it because it's a cartoon' category. Or we can stretch it and make some excuse where he would excuse himself from dinner, say he wasn't hungry etc etc. The tea scene has no excuse since we actually see him drink it.

That is another thing that ruins it. Ch'rell is such a hateful ball of rage. I don't see him having the patience to attend a dinner and actually sit through it, even if he knows it's 'part of the act' and important for him to earn respect and a good reputation.

But Ch'rell alter ego is Oroku Saki, he has to pretended to be human.

Prowler
08-14-2013, 04:48 PM
Well true... but that falls under the 'don't overthink it because it's a cartoon' category. Or we can stretch it and make some excuse where he would excuse himself from dinner, say he wasn't hungry etc etc. The tea scene has no excuse since we actually see him drink it.

That is another thing that ruins it. Ch'rell is such a hateful ball of rage. I don't see him having the patience to attend a dinner and actually sit through it, even if he knows it's 'part of the act' and important for him to earn respect and a good reputation.
Utroms are very patient. Remember, they crashed on Earth and waited over 400 years for its technology to evolve. Ch'rell might be less patient but he's probably still more patient than your average human. Utroms have insanely long lifespans after all.

Coola Yagami
08-14-2013, 04:53 PM
Utroms are very patient. Remember, they crashed on Earth and waited over 400 years for its technology to evolve. Ch'rell might be less patient but he's probably still more patient than your average human. Utroms have insanely long lifespans after all.

True, but once we saw Ch'rell as himself, he's portrayed as an insane maniac that wants to destroy his enemies and have it accomplished now.. Now... NOW!!! OR ELSE!!!

He just doesn't seem like someone to have the patience to deal with humans and put up with them through a dinner as Oroku Saki.

Prowler
08-14-2013, 04:56 PM
True, but once we saw Ch'rell as himself, he's portrayed as an insane maniac that wants to destroy his enemies and have it accomplished now.. Now... NOW!!! OR ELSE!!!

He just doesn't seem like someone to have the patience to deal with humans and put up with them through a dinner as Oroku Saki.
He really doesn't, but how else could he have kept his cover for such a long time?

Man, cartoon logic really fries one's brain, doesn't it? :lol:

Davetello
08-14-2013, 10:18 PM
When you think about it, it's actually freaky as all fvck that there's this squishy alien bug masquerading as a human being. Everywhere Saki goes, that little utrom is hiding in the stomach of the exosuit. Creepy when you really think about it.

Anyway, when the point was raised about drinking tea, I too believed it was necessary as 'cover'. Some of the other points raised are very compelling though.

Leo656
08-17-2013, 12:40 AM
I think it's safe to assume Shredder/Ch'rell's comeuppance at the Turtles' hands early on in he series would lead to his later, more unglued portrayal. I mean, it WAS a very drastic change in temperament, but eh, cartoons.

Bry
08-17-2013, 07:11 AM
Saki is drinking tea (or something) in the first episode. Why? Does his exosuit enjoy a good cup of tea?
It's possible the exo-suit "feeds" whatever it ingests down toward the Utrom, I suppose?

And the biggest reason that I don't think that he was supposed to be an utrom: I just don't buy it. Ch'rell is going to spend the whole first season chasing after the turtles, when he should be attacking TCRI? Oh wait, he didn't know that the utroms were hiding there. But April is able to a little internet search and find out that the guy running TCRI is a guy named "Mortu", which coincidently is the name of Ch'rell's enemy. Something isn't adding up here...
You could explain this away by saying that, unless Ch'rell had a specific reason to be researching TCRI (and it's been a while, so I don't know if he did or didn't offhand), there's no reason he'd learn that unless by chance. Granted, it's a bit thin, but... well, it's a kids' cartoon. ;)

It's entirely possible that the Utrom Shredder idea wasn't planned from day one and instead cooked up later on (that sort of thing is pretty common), but by the time Shredder was essentially unkillable by "human" means I think it had to have been in play.

Gonstead
08-22-2013, 07:22 AM
Saki is drinking tea (or something) in the first episode. Why? Does his exosuit enjoy a good cup of tea?


Do we know if it actually was tea? Maybe it was simply whatever powered the exo-suit disguised as tea.

ABrown
08-22-2013, 07:36 AM
I think I just have a tough time because I feel like Oroku Saki (in season one) and Ch'rell seemed like they had conflicting personalities. Saki was a ninja who operated in the shadows. Ch'rell was a world conqueror. Over the course of a thousand years, Ch'rell never made an effort to take over the entire planet? He was happy operating as a crime lord? It makes sense for Oroku Saki, but not for Ch'rell. I just feel like the two personalities conlict just a little too much.

Keldor1578
08-27-2013, 03:24 PM
True, but once we saw Ch'rell as himself, he's portrayed as an insane maniac that wants to destroy his enemies and have it accomplished now.. Now... NOW!!! OR ELSE!!!

He just doesn't seem like someone to have the patience to deal with humans and put up with them through a dinner as Oroku Saki.

We saw him in season three talking to the mayor, it show that he can be calm and deal with humans.

Candy Kappa
08-28-2013, 12:57 AM
I think I just have a tough time because I feel like Oroku Saki (in season one) and Ch'rell seemed like they had conflicting personalities. Saki was a ninja who operated in the shadows. Ch'rell was a world conqueror. Over the course of a thousand years, Ch'rell never made an effort to take over the entire planet? He was happy operating as a crime lord? It makes sense for Oroku Saki, but not for Ch'rell. I just feel like the two personalities conlict just a little too much.

He was waiting for human technology to advance enough for proper space travel, he probably just used what cards he was dealt with since he stuck with the Foot Clan

The Big Bad
08-28-2013, 07:55 AM
True, but once we saw Ch'rell as himself, he's portrayed as an insane maniac that wants to destroy his enemies and have it accomplished now.. Now... NOW!!! OR ELSE!!!

He just doesn't seem like someone to have the patience to deal with humans and put up with them through a dinner as Oroku Saki.

This...is not in accordance with the facts. We've seen Shredder be patient and methodical, and to be able to put aside vendettas when it suits his purposes. Upon first finding out about the turles, he attempts to figure out what their deal is before deciding what to do with them. Depending on your interpretation of how hands-on he was during "City at War", he was either behind the plan to recruit the turtles to take the city back for him, or was aware of it. After "Rogue in the House", he shifts "killing turtles" to the backburner, essentially subcontracting the job, and working around them as necessary while he works on his spaceship. It is only after his exile in space that "kill ALL THE TURTLES" becomes his overriding priority.

As for the skeptics, I've never placed much stock in them. Seeds for the reveal are revealed as early as episode six--"Darkness at the Edge of Town", which not only introduces the Utrom-pommeled Sword of Tengu, but makes features Saki's conspicuously covered stomach--which is far too early for it to be a last-minute addition. What's more, given the way standards and practices work, there is no way Goldfine and co. would have gotten to decapitate the Shredder unless they already had an established "out", and given the limited level of violence permitted in those first two seasons, any solution that wasn't "the Shredder isn't a biological organism at all" becomes implausible.

While the plot holes make the reveal less clean than I think anybody would have liked, I think that's all they are--plot holes and inconsistencies.

Keldor1578
08-28-2013, 04:50 PM
Anybody that doesn't believe Ch'rell was planned in the 4Kids cartoon, Can read Peter Laird's blog.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-30-2013, 12:46 PM
Anybody that doesn't believe Ch'rell was planned in the 4Kids cartoon, Can read Peter Laird's blog.

Where's the link? I know where the blogg is, but just where he link going directly to the post he wrote that.

Zachatello00
09-01-2013, 06:32 PM
If you watch the Peter laird interviews on the first few DVDs he heavily hints about it. When you finally get to season two, he's like a kid in a candy store when he talks about how we finally know that Shredder was an utrom. He even goes so far as to explain that the censors would never let them get away with Leo decapitating Shredder if it wasn't a robot.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-01-2013, 11:48 PM
And that's where the 4 kids shredder fell apart for me. I really loved the improvements to his character over fred wolf, and loved his plotting and schememing, and Baxter's 'punishments' showing how he did not forgive failure. And even the decapitation was cool- I thought he was some kind of supernatual Japanese demon or spirit after that! But as soon as the little pink wad of gum was revealed. Cold and ruthless saki became RAHAR! Revenge Ch'rell. I like to think that's why we got rid of not-Krang and brought in Tengu and Cyber shredder (I loved cybershredder because he had the utrom's mind in a humanoid body. And seemed calmerand more able to plan)

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-02-2013, 08:57 AM
If you watch the Peter laird interviews on the first few DVDs he heavily hints about it. When you finally get to season two, he's like a kid in a candy store when he talks about how we finally know that Shredder was an utrom. He even goes so far as to explain that the censors would never let them get away with Leo decapitating Shredder if it wasn't a robot.

Mirage Leonard decapited a clone. Why change his origin just because of that storyline? Were they so obssesed with this?

During late seasons, there came less and less Mirage influences.

Zachatello00
09-02-2013, 10:26 AM
The trouble is, clone or no clone, the clone was still human. The censors wouldn't go for it.

The reason you see less and less mirage influence is because they were running out of it. Mirage comics had 3 volumes ( four if you count image, which Laird didn't) while the toon ran seven seasons.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-02-2013, 11:09 AM
The trouble is, clone or no clone, the clone was still human. The censors wouldn't go for it.

The reason you see less and less mirage influence is because they were running out of it. Mirage comics had 3 volumes ( four if you count image, which Laird didn't) while the toon ran seven seasons.

Maybe a human Shredder could've used a large, robotic battlearmour (sitting inside the stommach).

Or maybe Shredder couldn't just sent out a robot spy looking like his armour that Leonardo cut the head off, and then the real human Shredder would've shown up.

Keldor1578
09-04-2013, 04:14 PM
Maybe a human Shredder could've used a large, robotic battlearmour (sitting inside the stommach).

Or maybe Shredder couldn't just sent out a robot spy looking like his armour that Leonardo cut the head off, and then the real human Shredder would've shown up.

There was a real human Oroku Saki in the 4Kids cartoon anyway, Why doesn't bother you.

shuriken
09-04-2013, 04:50 PM
I don't know, cuz they suck at picking up hints i guess.

Keldor1578
09-04-2013, 06:56 PM
Mirage Leonard decapited a clone. Why change his origin just because of that storyline? Were they so obssesed with this?

During late seasons, there came less and less Mirage influences.

Because Laird wanted the Shredder to have a deeper connection the the the turtles's origin, That why Oroku Saki was made into an utrom in the 4Kids cartoon.

Krang100
09-05-2013, 12:58 PM
The first episode a least, Shredder seemly drink a tea, although he shows his sadism when he killed Jhon of screen.

But in some episodes of Season 1 when Shredder was looking some pieces of strange technology (Utrom Technology) or why strange people (Utrom's guardian)watching the conflict between the Turtles and in Splinter's flashback, Shredder attack Hamato Yoshi to find information about "his enemy" supports that Shredder is a Utrom. And acording with Peter Laird, they want Shredder involved in the turtles origin.

ABrown
09-05-2013, 02:25 PM
I don't know, cuz they suck at picking up hints i guess.

Whatever. Like you (or anyone for that matter) at any point during the first season (before Leo cut Shredder's head off) thought that Shredder was an utrom.

TurtleMaster4
09-10-2013, 01:52 PM
And that's where the 4 kids shredder fell apart for me. I really loved the improvements to his character over fred wolf, and loved his plotting and schememing, and Baxter's 'punishments' showing how he did not forgive failure. And even the decapitation was cool- I thought he was some kind of supernatual Japanese demon or spirit after that! But as soon as the little pink wad of gum was revealed. Cold and ruthless saki became RAHAR! Revenge Ch'rell. I like to think that's why we got rid of not-Krang and brought in Tengu and Cyber shredder (I loved cybershredder because he had the utrom's mind in a humanoid body. And seemed calmerand more able to plan)


I never really minded an Utrom Shredder; I always preferred the human one more though. I’m not so sure about it anymore, I’m starting to like them both the same. I really love Utroms (they are way better than the Kraang) and Chr’ ell was pretty wicked. I mean a plot twist like that was almost unexpected and it allowed him to survive multiple attacks and made him a real danger to the turtles.

I mean it all boils down to opinions but in the end both the human Shredders and the Utrom Shredder are cool!