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View Full Version : Out of the Shadows: how would you fix it?


sirroscoe
09-02-2013, 07:21 AM
By now, many of us has played OotS, and the reviews for this game ranged from mediocre to scathing. While many of us has looked over and/or tolerated the bugs in this game, there's no denying that this is a very FLAWED game. Despite that, there's a number of things this game does right, and there's no denying the love and ambition behind this game. I've played this game extensively as well as the game this game is trying to emulate...Batman: Arkham City. Here are some suggestions I've came up with.

1. Pan the camera out. The camera is entirely too close to the action. We're not able to see nearly every enemy on screen, and that makes players susceptible to off-screen attacks, adding to frustration. With a pushed out camera, players can see what attacks are incoming and can plan accordingly.

2. Clean the combat area up. I know there are obstacles that the Turtles can run about, showing off their agility, but in a combat area, its only clutter. They break your combos, mess up your evades, and traps the camera. I noticed in the Arkham games, there's nothing in the middle of the floor but Batman and his enemies (as far as FreeFlow goes). That same lesson needs to be applied here.

3. Fix the counter system. Enemies attack way too quickly, the counter window is too early, and you yourself can't counter mid-move, ending up in a lot of broken combos. All of that needs to be addressed, analyzed, and fixed. Enemy attack animations are far shorter than Turtle attack animations. That needs to be balanced. And get rid of that counter health bar. There's no point in having something limited that's an intrical part of the gameplay. That's bad planning.

4. I believe there is someone here that suggested the special attacks be assigned to RT+face buttons instead of the RS. And that's a GOOD idea. 90 degree attacks should be A and X, 180s are B and Y, and 360s are A+X or B+Y. Special weapon attacks are LB+RT+360-degree face buttons.
EDIT: In my infinite wisdom, I forgot that the face buttons were already assigned to TPKOs :-\. So I was thinking maybe, MAYBE change the takedown inputs as well, just like in Arkham City (Y+B for TPKOS, A+X for throws, A+B for team TPKOS, and X+Y for Shell Shocks).

5. Make combat areas a little bigger, with more enemies. We have 4 Turtles fully engaging in combat. At a point, things will get congested. It was a good idea for double/triple/quadruple team KOs to keep everyone's combo going, but there needs to be a few more enemies on screen. More enemies, a spaced out camera, less clutter, and an improved counter system will make the combat more enjoyable.

There are a lot more fixes that needs to be done, like being stuck in places, falling through floors, the collision detection, the input detection, overlapping conversations. But I believe there's a foundation that was laid with OotS, and I can only hope the reviews didn't discourage anyone from improving on it. There's a market for a Turtles game, just not a bad one, so do better.

Peanut
09-02-2013, 07:44 AM
I agree with everything you said. Well put!

chrisdude
09-02-2013, 08:34 AM
I'd make it so you could center the camera with a button. Maybe clicking the right stick. That'd be cool.

MrTMNT2012
09-02-2013, 08:38 AM
For 2-players local: Have a Split-screen that doesn't require you to gouge out your eyeballs every 2 seconds? By that, make it bigger and not in a small box!

chrisdude
09-02-2013, 08:42 AM
For 2-players local: Have a Split-screen that doesn't require you to gouge out your eyeballs every 2 seconds? By that, make it bigger and not in a small box!Yeah, their split-screen doesn't make sense at all.

mikey22
09-02-2013, 12:20 PM
maybe theyll get it right for ps3 release

Leo656
09-02-2013, 02:49 PM
I can't argue with any of that. None of those things have bothered me at all but since they bother so many other people I can't argue that some tweaks could make it more enjoyable for them. Simplify the combat system a little bit (works fine for me but I'm only one guy), since the timing is too unforgiving for most people and the Specials are a little cumbersome to pull off, especially the Juggles. Camera could be a little farther back. Pretty much what you said.

I still haven't had any big bugs, but I know they're out there, so some more time in the oven absolutely could have fixed that. There's so much going on under the hood some glitches are inevitable, but it apparently needs to be smoothed over.

To me, it's good, but it could be better. I'd absolutely welcome a sequel with some more polish on it. They are definitely on the right track, this is the kind of TMNT game I really want to play. Not that it's the only way to do a good TMNT game, but there is a solid foundation to build on.

raphael_is_cool
09-02-2013, 03:59 PM
I think you've covered my main gripes. The special attack thing was a nice idea but I don't think it's a good fit for a 3D brawler. As for counters, I think it's deliberately meant to be less forgiving than the Arkham games (Splinter has 'Words of Wisdom' about balancing your attacking and countering), but yeah, it could definitely be a little tighter.

I'm still enjoying it anyway, but then I've been fortunate(?) enough not to have tried the multiplayer and I've adjusted to the idiosyncratic (yet still far from perfect) combat.

One thing I would add is to ape Arkham City a little more in the enemy-tracking department so everything's more fluid. While it's probably not apparent to a lot of people, in those games once Batman nailed the first three hits, he could then automatically cover any distance to attack an enemy. I know OOTS has something a little like this, but it's too inconsistent and the combat areas are a little too large; which means the animation might look a little too awkward. That extra space is probably needed for four turtles and all the enemies, so perhaps the alternative might be to do a slow-mo shift to another turtle in that direction so the player won't get disoriented and allow them to keep a combo going.

I really would love to see these guys given a full release budget and adequate development time, seeing as this was only in pre-alpha back in March, but if Activision are in charge then...yeah. Red Fly seem to have the right idea and they clearly love the franchise. It'd be great to see them free of the Nickelodeon incarnation as well (not that I dislike the show).

Shadowsculptor
09-02-2013, 06:37 PM
I agree with most of those points, though the fighting system works for me. I like the analog swing moves I just wish they were slightly more responsive. The game shouldn't be compared to batman since its a completely different type of system. The counter works fine for me, it just takes time to master. Anyone who goes into it thinking about playing it like batman will have a good deal of trouble. If anything I play it more like Dark Souls lol! Slow and methodical.

Probably the main gripe I have about the game other than the camera, is the cutscenes. They are seriously piss poor. It would have been so cool to have actual TMNT comic book artists do them since they insisted on the comic panel cutscenes. At least let them be renders of the actual game. They look like coloring book pages that were poorly filled in with MS paint.

Otherwise, I'm pretty good. The voices are great, controls are fine to me. I'd make the animation of the vaulting and jumping a bit smoother. There's seems to be a frame of animation missing in certain places, but that's a minor nitpick.

Coola Yagami
09-02-2013, 07:47 PM
No split screen. Make it an actual good game with more than 1 life per Turtle and a way to revive the fallen ones. Make it more fun.

Double Dragon Neon had cool combos, lots of attacks, upgraded moves 3-D and 2-D fighting, etc etc etc and they didn't have to result to this split screen camera bs.

Peanut
09-02-2013, 10:00 PM
Simplify the combat system a little bit (works fine for me but I'm only one guy), since the timing is too unforgiving for most people and the Specials are a little cumbersome to pull off, especially the Juggles. Camera could be a little farther back. Pretty much what you said.

The combat doesn't need to be simplified, it's about as simple as it gets for one of these games, it needs to be tightened. The majority of it's "depth" has absolutely no use, since you can run up and hammer the X button and kill everything from the first enemy you meet to Shredder without issue, so simplifying it would simply mean pulling variety out of it, since that's all most of it is. The timing isn't "too unforgiving for most people" it's simply f*cking broken. Pushing the counter button at the exact same time in an enemy attack is in no way a guarantee you'll counter it properly, especially if you're in the middle of attacking yourself. Being unable to counter at all times during offense absolutely does not work for the combat system they're trying to ape. The biggest issue being enemy special attacks, which can not only come from two screens away via unseen enemies (again the abhorrent camera,) but you're susceptible to it even if you're performing a special attack.

The special moves on the stick makes absolutely no sense either. You've got to babysit the camera at all times to even keep half of your enemies in sight, so that stick is almost always in use. Trying to keep your eye on enemies attacking out of your immediate vision and trying to pull of special moves is a hot mess of garbage. It's straight up poorly designed.

Leo656
09-02-2013, 10:26 PM
I agree actually, "Simplify" wasn't what I meant really. It's pretty simple, and I actually like that the depth of combat and learning all the moves isn't *mandatory* but rather "If you want to take advantage of it and feel cool, there it is," but you can still get through without it.

As for the timing, I've said before elsewhere, I doubt I have magic fingers, and after a few hours I haven't had a problem blocking, countering, or combo-ing. I'm not perfect at it by any means but pretty much every time I mess up a block/counter, it almost always feels like I was being lazy at that moment and mistimed a button press. That's why I described the timing as "too unforgiving for most people", because I have heard a lot of complaints about it but I myself don't seem to be having those specific problems. I can't in good conscience say something "works for absolutely no one" if I can get it to work; I can only say "most people". So I honestly don't know.

Either way, if the timing was different, more people would be happier with it and I acknowledge that. I like the game quite a bit but I'm not married to it.

Peanut
09-02-2013, 10:33 PM
I'm just wondering exactly what you consider "working" to mean, to be honest. The low level stuff isn't an issue at all, it's the high level challenge stuff that real begins to show the combat system for what it is. When it's 10 on 1 and every single counter counts. Do you honestly feel it's your fault when you get hit by a special attack from far outside your cone of vision while attacking an enemy on the later challenge missions?

Even the mediocre Captain America game, which also ripped of the Arkham combat system whole cloth, felt more responsive.

Leo656
09-02-2013, 11:38 PM
I'm still playing through all the Challenge missions, but so far I'm doing ok. In the rest of the game, I'm willing to believe in a little bit of dumb luck on my part. :lol: Sometimes I happen to randomly backflip around for fun in between beating on guys, and stuff will miss me. When I play these games I just kinda try and keep moving around; I get hit once in a while but nothing major. When I'm making an effort to block/counter, it usually works, the rest of the time I just don't happen to get hit. I figure as long as I don't ever stand still, stuff only has a 50/50 chance at hitting me at best, and it usually works well for me.

Plus I think the AI Turtles are a little overpowered, as far as the main game; I often leave them to fend for themselves while I trot off for a bit, and sometimes it's like they refuse to get hurt too much. I've swapped to another Turtle just to find that they've been fighting for like 5 minutes on one sliver of health and no Pizza. Since even if they all get KOed they revive once the room is empty, I don't worry about protecting or helping them unless I want to juggle. If I'm not worrying about them I'm more likely to fight better.

I also forgot, a much, much better jumping mechanic would be nice as well. The old TMNT arcade games were so heavily centered on jump kicking guys, and I realized I didn't use the jump-kick much at all in this game, because it was too cumbersome. That needs fixin'.

sirroscoe
09-03-2013, 08:18 AM
The combat doesn't need to be simplified, it's about as simple as it gets for one of these games, it needs to be tightened. The majority of it's "depth" has absolutely no use, since you can run up and hammer the X button and kill everything from the first enemy you meet to Shredder without issue, so simplifying it would simply mean pulling variety out of it, since that's all most of it is. The timing isn't "too unforgiving for most people" it's simply f*cking broken. Pushing the counter button at the exact same time in an enemy attack is in no way a guarantee you'll counter it properly, especially if you're in the middle of attacking yourself. Being unable to counter at all times during offense absolutely does not work for the combat system they're trying to ape. The biggest issue being enemy special attacks, which can not only come from two screens away via unseen enemies (again the abhorrent camera,) but you're susceptible to it even if you're performing a special attack.

The special moves on the stick makes absolutely no sense either. You've got to babysit the camera at all times to even keep half of your enemies in sight, so that stick is almost always in use. Trying to keep your eye on enemies attacking out of your immediate vision and trying to pull of special moves is a hot mess of garbage. It's straight up poorly designed.

This so much. I understand what the developers were trying to do, but it comes out as convoluted and complicated. And it's further hindered by shoddy and inconsistent detection, and that camera. They need to streamline the controls, not simplify the gameplay. The gameplay isn't the problem, it's trying to get it to work as intended.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-03-2013, 09:55 AM
Besides the glitches, the only other thing I'd fix about this game is what it's based on. I love the Nick series, but to base both the game for the fans and the upcoming console game for the kids on it as redundant. Out of the Shadows should have been like the Akham games- based of things from all iterations, but it's own thing for the purpouses of the game. We should have had migae characters, 4 kids characters, Fred Wolf characters, and turtles that draw from all of these for thier dialouge and personalities. Instead, what we got was a 'this is what the nick series would be like if it looked more mature'. This game just feels redundant with the console game coming out in a few months! :roll: I'd rather see as bosses, say;

Roacksteady and Bebop
Rat King
Leatherhead
Slash
Hun
4 kids Karai or Mirage Karai
a dark, non-nick shredder

That a rehash of serious verions of the bosses we'll be getting in a few months. *Sigh* I actually liked the game mechanics, gameplay, and character designs, I just wish the story, setting, and character choices had been a bit more aimed at the indnted 'old-school' audience.