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View Full Version : The Utrom Shredder being an impostor in the 4Kids cartoon.


Keldor1578
10-02-2013, 05:37 PM
How do you feel about Ch'rell stealing the identity of Oroku Saki and his alter ego, Are you okay with him not being the original Shredder/Oroku Saki or does it diminish him in the 4Kids cartoon.

MsMarvelDuckie
10-02-2013, 08:03 PM
I thought it was fitting, and it brought the entire storyline full circle, with the original Saki being the basis for the legend that Ch'rell used to become the Shredder, and that same "imposter" being the one who led the turtles to discover the legends, the mystics, and how to defeat the tengu-demon. So without him "usurping" the role, the Sword of Tengu story, the backstory with the Utroms, and most of season five would never have happened. It's a mystical/temporal paradox..... Would they have ever even encountered the mystics, or would the Tengu-Shredder have awakened if not for Ch'rell's meddling? Probably not.

ToTheNines
10-02-2013, 08:50 PM
I wish Ch'rell would have had a stand-alone origin episode that detailed how and why he became Oroku Saki.

blindturtle02
10-03-2013, 06:29 AM
I was always cool with utrom Shredder as an imposter. Some people complained that there were too many Shredders in the show but I have to say I liked all the variants. I wish we could have seen the Shredder War arc btw.

Keldor1578
10-04-2013, 03:57 PM
I wish Ch'rell would have had a stand-alone origin episode that detailed how and why he became Oroku Saki.

Is a damn shame, I wish too there was an episode on how Ch'rell became Oroku Saki.

Whatswiththeheadbands?
10-05-2013, 11:48 AM
Doesn't bother me at all. He was always the real shredder in my mind.

Keldor1578
10-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Even after Ch'rell was revealed to be an imposter, People who hate the Utrom Shredder are still complaining about him.They should just be happy there was a human Oroku Saki in the 4Kids cartoon.

Coola Yagami
10-11-2013, 04:12 PM
Even after Ch'rell was revealed to be an imposter, People who hate the Utrom Shredder are still complaining about him.They should just be happy there was a human Oroku Saki in the 4Kids cartoon.

Except that there wasn't.... One flashback episode and other than that shredder was either an alien a demon a woman or a living computer virus.

CansecoBat
10-13-2013, 01:16 AM
Utrom Shredder, the sloppy merging of the 80's show Krang and Shredder ruined the 4Kids show for me, personally. Needless re-invention of the character, just for the sake of being "cool". The change ultimately destroyed the intimacy of the character of Oroku Saki to the turtles, and Saki / Shredder going from menacing human to basically a mask for a laughable angry pink utrom was totally unforgivable in my book.

k_lala
10-13-2013, 10:56 AM
I wish Ch'rell would have had a stand-alone origin episode that detailed how and why he became Oroku Saki.

Yes this would have been awesome! Also I would have loved to see his reaction if he ever meet the real Oroku Saki and NO BTTS doesnt count. That whole series was weird and so was that episode.

Pterobat
10-13-2013, 11:30 PM
It is not okayyyyy...

Ch'rell was fun. I have no problems with his being an utrom, with his iconic human identity just being a suit, or anything else. Tengu Shredder, for all he was hyped, for all he was physically powerful, just wasn't a fun character. Trying to make him the "real" Saki was laughable.

Shark_Blade
10-14-2013, 01:56 AM
How do you feel about Ch'rell stealing the identity of Oroku Saki and his alter ego, Are you okay with him not being the original Shredder/Oroku Saki or does it diminish him in the 4Kids cartoon.

Diminish imo.

I loathe utrom shredder with every fibre of my being. In this series, Oroku Saki is nothing but a mere vessel, a worthless puppet, a non being.

It's like taking one of the turtles and turning them into a robot or something awfully dull like that.

Refractive Reflections
10-14-2013, 02:22 AM
Diminish imo.

I loathe utrom shredder with every fibre of my being. In this series, Oroku Saki is nothing but a mere vessel, a worthless puppet, a non being.

It's like taking one of the turtles and turning them into a robot or something awfully dull like that.

I agree with that Shark Blade.

Utrom Shredder. Ugh...
Yes it was an powerful twist in the series, but the shock value faded fast, and in the process Utrom Shredder ruined the lure of the human aspect of Oroku Saki, the other TMNT depictions had. Instead of being fully immersed in the Japanese backstory and growing up around it, Saki was actually just a cover, hiding a sociopathic alien criminal all along. Saki's character depth, in comparison from the other depictions to this 4Kids depiction, was reduced to a veneer because he was actually a whole other character since the beginning.

Keldor1578
10-15-2013, 03:29 PM
Except that there wasn't.... One flashback episode and other than that shredder was either an alien a demon a woman or a living computer virus.

Doesn't change the fact there was a real Oroku Saki.

snake
10-15-2013, 03:35 PM
I wish Ch'rell would have had a stand-alone origin episode that detailed how and why he became Oroku Saki.

This is a good idea. I probably would've liked him if he had some more backstory.

Quesun
10-21-2013, 03:10 PM
I would have preferred Ch'rell stayed "the original Shredder" since the series spent three whole seasons building up his character and only one on Demon Shredder, plus he didn't debut until later in the season. It's a minor gripe though and I don't think it diminishes Ch'rell's character. He had to get inspiration for that battle gear somewhere.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
10-22-2013, 12:49 PM
And why was Chrell read, when the other Utroms were pink?

Andrew NDB
10-22-2013, 12:49 PM
And why was Chrell read, when the other Utroms were pink?

Because he's eeeeeevil. Just because.

Coola Yagami
10-23-2013, 11:50 AM
Doesn't change the fact there was a real Oroku Saki.

Doesn't change the fact that they weren't fighting the real Oroku Saki for most of the series. What's your point.

CansecoBat
10-23-2013, 05:11 PM
Because he's eeeeeevil. Just because.

Selling Toys.

Be honest.

CyberCubed
10-23-2013, 05:12 PM
Selling Toys.

Be honest.

They never made a toy of Utrom shredder itself.

CansecoBat
10-23-2013, 05:21 PM
They never made a toy of Utrom shredder itself.

They dropped the ball on that too? How do you not get around to making that version? The goofy little pink slug in the Oroku Saki / Shredder mechanical suit. Push a lever to reveal "Ch'rell" inside the Shredder suit.

God what a stupid, contrived, disrespectful character twist. It's still corny to this day. I don't know whether Laird thought it was interesting, and an actual good idea, or if it's was an amalgamation of Krang and Shredder, or if it was just a way to get around a cool visual paying homage to Mirage of Leo decapitating Shredder.

We'll never know, but I find that amazing that playmates didn't take advantage of making a "Ch'rell" Utrom Shredder figure, but we got clone "Crab Shredder" ...

:lol:

Keldor1578
10-23-2013, 05:47 PM
They dropped the ball on that too? How do you not get around to making that version? The goofy little pink slug in the Oroku Saki / Shredder mechanical suit. Push a lever to reveal "Ch'rell" inside the Shredder suit.

God what a stupid, contrived, disrespectful character twist. It's still corny to this day. I don't know whether Laird thought it was interesting, and an actual good idea, or if it's was an amalgamation of Krang and Shredder, or if it was just a way to get around a cool visual paying homage to Mirage of Leo decapitating Shredder.

We'll never know, but I find that amazing that playmates didn't take advantage of making a "Ch'rell" Utrom Shredder figure, but we got clone "Crab Shredder" ...

:lol:

Ch'rell was Peter Laird's idea, He wanted The Shredder to have deeper connection to the turtles's origin.

CansecoBat
10-23-2013, 06:01 PM
Ch'rell was Peter Laird's idea, He wanted The Shredder to have deeper connection to the turtles's origin.
Which doesn't make much sense to me either. They're already closely linked. The turtles trained by Splinter to avenge the wrong doings either done to him, or his master.

That's intimate connection.

The relationship is deep between Shredder and Splinter, the Turtles are just a byproduct of it, being they are Splinter's sons.

Such a needless change. All it does is make things cheesier, and even more implausible.

CyberCubed
10-23-2013, 06:05 PM
Utrom Shredder was also a substitute for Krang who Laird would never allow in this show.

That's why IDW made Krang into an Utrom, and why the Kraang are main villains in the Nick show.

deathtojohnny
01-16-2014, 10:12 AM
Here's the thing: I _hated_ the idea of Utrom Shredder.

The idea that an Utrom becomes a master in ninjutsu and martial arts using a robotic body...

What made the original Shredder intimidating is that he was a legit threat. A physical threat. He was a ninja master that rivaled Splinter. He rose through ranks of the Foot Clan to lead them.

But then you find out that it was all just a robot body performing all those impressive feats, which nullifies any and all respect for the character has gained as a ninja master. It wasn't his limbs that were performing those awesome attacks, it could've just been some programming done into the suit itself.

But one thing I did like was introduce the original Oroku Saki. Ch'rell using the identity of a legend to gain fear and respect made for a great retcon. If it weren't for this, I would've completely written off this show.

Keldor1578
01-16-2014, 05:35 PM
Doesn't change the fact that they weren't fighting the real Oroku Saki for most of the series. What's your point.

My point is there was a real Oroku Saki, It doesn't matter that the turtles didn't fought the original Oroko Saki for most of the show. The shredder was a legacy character in the 4Kids cartoon.

MsMarvelDuckie
01-16-2014, 09:25 PM
Diminish imo.

I loathe Utrom Shredder with every fibre of my being. In this series, Oroku Saki is nothing but a mere vessel, a worthless puppet, a non being.

It's like taking one of the turtles and turning them into a robot or something awfully dull like that.

Y'know, I think maybe you're confusing the "body" with the "mind" inside it. Ch'rell WAS Oroku Saki for all intents and purposes. Saki was Ch'rell's own personality given human form, so saying he was a "non-being" is misleading. He was both the puppet AND the puppeteer in one nasty package. Does it really matter what makes up the body of a villain if the mind directing that body is the same? Not really. Saki is not just the vessel, he's the spirit inside it, too.

And saying it's like turning one of the turtles into a robot makes little sense. The Fugitoid was a robot, but had his own unique personality. He was a living mind stuck into a robot body- which is not THAT much different from what you're suggesting, or an alien using an android shape to assume a human identity, for that matter.

deathtojohnny
01-17-2014, 10:23 AM
Y'know, I think maybe you're confusing the "body" with the "mind" inside it. Ch'rell WAS Oroku Saki for all intents and purposes. Saki was Ch'rell's own personality given human form, so saying he was a "non-being" is misleading. He was both the puppet AND the puppeteer in one nasty package. Does it really matter what makes up the body of a villain if the mind directing that body is the same? Not really. Saki is not just the vessel, he's the spirit inside it, too.

And saying it's like turning one of the turtles into a robot makes little sense. The Fugitoid was a robot, but had his own unique personality. He was a living mind stuck into a robot body- which is not THAT much different from what you're suggesting, or an alien using an android shape to assume a human identity, for that matter.

You should probably check out my response to this thread a couple posts above this one.

The idea that Ch'rell isn't using his own body is disappointing. Shredder is supposed to be a physical threat.

TurtleFan2012
01-25-2014, 06:02 PM
The funny thing is, when Leo decapitated Shredder, I knew it was a robot body. There's no way in heck they would show that in a kid's cartoon. You really think they would kill him off just like that? No way!

At first, I suspected it was a robot copy, similar to a Doombot. I thought Saki was taking lessons from Dr. Doom. Although, that would have been a better twist.

MsMarvelDuckie
01-26-2014, 12:51 AM
You should probably check out my response to this thread a couple posts above this one.

The idea that Ch'rell isn't using his own body is disappointing. Shredder is supposed to be a physical threat.

I DID read it, that's why I posted that. So what if it wasn't his own "body"? Utroms don't HAVE a "body" to use for that sort of thing. It's actually MORE impressive that he was able to gain that level of skill with an android body- but then again, he also had CENTURIES to learn, so maybe it's actually more surprising that he could be beaten AT ALL. He's been doing it for hundreds of years, vs the turtles'- what, 15? And all without the benefit of having his own arms and legs. The fact that he could have that level of control of the android body tells me that he WAS in fact very good at using it to begin with. Not so surprising, really- that's what they were BUILT for- duh. How ELSE does a small alien blob get around and build the kind of technology they had? Without any hands or feet? Not bloody likely!! And that's not even counting the fact that they would be far more vulnerable on their own. (IDW Krang aside, apparently....) And technically, using the android body DID make him a physical threat, which he would hardly have been as a simple Utrom. So there you go. :trolleye::kgrin:

Leo656
01-26-2014, 01:08 AM
Y'know, Utrom Shredder didn't really bug me for some reason, but I have to wonder if they'd still do it, knowing what they know now about how divisive it would be. For some people it's the single biggest turn-off for them as far as the whole show, and that's a shame.

I doubt they'd do it over again.

TurtleFan2012
01-26-2014, 12:11 PM
I DID read it, that's why I posted that. So what if it wasn't his own "body"? Utroms don't HAVE a "body" to use for that sort of thing. It's actually MORE impressive that he was able to gain that level of skill with an android body- but then again, he also had CENTURIES to learn, so maybe it's actually more surprising that he could be beaten AT ALL. He's been doing it for hundreds of years, vs the turtles'- what, 15? And all without the benefit of having his own arms and legs. The fact that he could have that level of control of the android body tells me that he WAS in fact very good at using it to begin with. Not so surprising, really- that's what they were BUILT for- duh. How ELSE does a small alien blob get around and build the kind of technology they had? Without any hands or feet? Not bloody likely!! And that's not even counting the fact that they would be far more vulnerable on their own. (IDW Krang aside, apparently....) And technically, using the android body DID make him a physical threat, which he would hardly have been as a simple Utrom. So there you go. :trolleye::kgrin:

Some people say Ch'rell is controlling the body with his thoughts. I buy that theory. I can swallow an alien using an android body to walk around....but to use it in battle where you have to act quickly?? :ohwell:

Let's say an enemy throws a punch at you, you would have to be VERY fast to press buttons. I'm guessing 2 or 3 buttons can make the android body do a special attack, similar to a video game combo.

MsMarvelDuckie
01-26-2014, 12:44 PM
I believe it was controlled by his thoughts. That would make sense, as complex movements would be necessary just to make him able to blend in with humans while controlling the body. Otherwise, it would look too mechanical and awkward, which would arouse suspicion. He clearly developed the Saki persona over time, and was so convincing that even his own henchmen didn't know the truth for a long time. Think of it more like mech armor, where the pilot is hard-wired into the machine and controls it by brain-waves. (A la Robotech, Gundam, Technoman, or any other such anime where this occurs.)

Also, the few times we actually SEE him inside it, he is never shown using any sort of controls, unlike Krang in the 80's toon, who sometimes did. For that matter, all of the other Utroms were apparently able to control their bodies by thoughts (the few times they were shown) even in battle as well. Remember when April and Casey's wedding was attacked? The Utroms attending the wedding (Mordo and a couple of others) fought alongside the turtles and everyone else that was capable of it, so it seems to be a built-in function. And what would be the point of having a humanoid body that was not capable of a full range of human movement? They were on Earth for over a thousand years. That's plenty of time to develop the tech to do that, if they didn't have it already- which, with their level of advancement, they most likely did.

utrommortu
01-27-2014, 10:23 AM
Utrom technology would allow controlling an exo-suit with thought. If I recall correctly, though, the first exo-suit made by the yellow utrom in the 2003 series was controlled by levers.

Kurai
01-27-2014, 11:48 AM
I was cool with it. It's an interesting interpretation of the character, but I can see why people are annoyed by it. It definitely doesn't hinder my enjoyment of the series.

k_lala
01-27-2014, 07:58 PM
I never liked the idea first but fell in love with it later on as it all worked out.

TurtleFan2012
01-28-2014, 09:49 AM
It's a funny coincidence that Ch'rell happens to have the same voice and personality as the Tengu Shredder. At least he's wasn't a wimpy guy pretending to be a tough guy in front of his minions. I hate villains that act wussy as soon as they are unmasked, like in the 90's Scooby-Doo shows. Glad to see Ch'rell still being his villainous self, in and out of suit.

MsMarvelDuckie
02-01-2014, 10:32 PM
Utrom technology would allow controlling an exo-suit with thought. If I recall correctly, though, the first exo-suit made by the yellow utrom in the 2003 series was controlled by levers.


That probably had more to do with the fact that they had only been on Earth a short time and were probably short on usable parts. Not to mention the fact that they had to wait until Earth's technology became advanced enough for them to build their portal, so it would have taken a while for them to build thought-controlled bodies as well. I suspect that that first body was a prototype, and they made upgrades later.

TurtleFan2012
02-05-2014, 01:07 PM
Season 5 contradicts Slashur's flashback in the TMNT 2: Battle Nexus game. In the flashback, Ch'rell is shown walking around in a prototype Shredder suit on his home planet. The suit even has the pointy thingys on its head.

Xav
02-05-2014, 05:08 PM
Well that games not canon. It contradicts a lot of stuff from the show.

Gabriel GP
02-05-2014, 08:49 PM
The only thing that bothers me, is the fact that the 2003s Shredder appears too much, and worst, lose too much, he was supposed to be the worst enemy of the turtles, but after lose 38278723 for the turtles, it lost some credits, Bishop for me was easily the most dangerous enemy of the series, he never leave empty-handed as shredder.

The fact of shredder be a alien was least of his problems.

Anarchistguy
10-30-2016, 03:23 PM
What bothers me more is that people STILL think he's the real Oroku Saki even though they were shown the truth. Just like in The Simpsons with Principal Skinner.

sdp
10-30-2016, 11:46 PM
Season 5 contradicts Slashur's flashback in the TMNT 2: Battle Nexus game. In the flashback, Ch'rell is shown walking around in a prototype Shredder suit on his home planet. The suit even has the pointy thingys on its head.

Was this a cg FMV/using the games 3D models or 2d animated? I know I've seen 2D animated videos from the games that are not on the actual show.

MarsicornYT
10-31-2016, 07:22 PM
Was this a cg FMV/using the games 3D models or 2d animated? I know I've seen 2D animated videos from the games that are not on the actual show.

I managed to find the clip on youtube - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YcI8uezE29M&feature=youtu.be

Skip to 3:48 where he starts talking about his past then shows his flash back with the shredder.

Wesley
11-01-2016, 01:20 PM
I wasn't bothered about Ch'rell being an imposter. He still appeared to be the "real" Shredder to me, maybe because he was the show's main villain for the first three seasons and he's the most-known of all the Shredders in the 2003 series.

Shiro Kame
11-20-2016, 11:09 AM
It never really bothered me that Shredder was an Utrom in this series. I was a kid when I got the reveal, and I was like "cool!" Now grown up...since he committed a lot of atrocities that resulted in billions' deaths, I still find him to be a good Shredder since he's still evil and on a grander scale.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
02-11-2017, 07:07 AM
What bothers me more is that people STILL think he's the real Oroku Saki even though they were shown the truth.

Who thinks that?

Anarchistguy
02-11-2017, 07:17 AM
Who thinks that?



For instance, there was this user here called "TheOneTrueShredder" . He kept insisting that Ch'Rell was the real Shredder and that the Tengu Shredder was the imposter.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
02-11-2017, 07:21 AM
For instance, there was this user here called "TheOneTrueShredder" . He kept insisting that Ch'Rell was the real Shredder and that the Tengu Shredder was.the imposter.

Was that after the series aired?

Utrommaniac
02-11-2017, 10:04 AM
I can actually see Ch'rell trying to make that claim :lol: . He's just that egocentric.

Anarchistguy
02-11-2017, 08:26 PM
Was that after the series aired?

Yes, it was.