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View Full Version : Is it the 4Kids series' fault if...


Andrew NDB
10-23-2013, 11:05 PM
... Erich Sachs over in TMNT: The Movie Part 5 ends up being some kind of Dimension X alien? Because an argument might be made for how (if that ends up being the case) 4Kids germinated in people's heads (read: Paramount's) the spore about having it be OK for Shredder to be someone other than a human named Oroku Saki.

Coola Yagami
10-23-2013, 11:06 PM
Might explain so many things if they chose to go that route.

Cryomancer
10-23-2013, 11:14 PM
Well he was already a worm clone and a worm clone shark in Mirage so it's not like 4kids has the monopoly on inhuman Shredders. And of course Raphael and Lady Shredder in Image.

I think it's more to do with the fact that all the non-realistic stuff in the movie is probably coming from Dimension X, assuming that whole "TMNT are the lost children we sent to Earth" stuff is actually happening. Even if it's not, the idea of a alien monster Shredder stems from that stage of the script, and could move forward without the rest. I suppose it's possible that 4kids inspired that idea to begin with, but I find it somewhat unlikely that they're bothering to use anything other than the OT as source material at all.

Andrew NDB
10-23-2013, 11:17 PM
Well he was already a worm clone and a worm clone shark in Mirage

Yeah, but he didn't start as that. And as the awful Shredder Shark story made it a point to underscore, that wasn't really him.

I think it's more to do with the fact that all the non-realistic stuff in the movie is probably coming from Dimension X

Seems a reasonable assumption.

assuming that whole "TMNT are the lost children we sent to Earth" stuff is actually happening. Even if it's not

Yeah, it's not. They've definitely tweaked stuff at least to have the Turtles be mutants mutated from normal turtles on Earth. Beyond that, though... who knows.

the idea of a alien monster Shredder stems from that stage of the script, and could move forward without the rest. I suppose it's possible that 4kids inspired that idea to begin with, but I find it somewhat unlikely that they're bothering to use anything other than the OT as source material at all.

I definitely concur on the last thought, though while even the alien script was being written, 4Kids was on the air/in the public psyche so it's difficult to rule it out entirely.

CansecoBat
10-24-2013, 01:43 AM
4Kids germinated in people's heads (read: Paramount's) the spore about having it be OK for Shredder to be someone other than a human named Oroku Saki.

You know ...

I'm starting to get the feeling, especially from Fitchner's comments about the character's relation to the turtles origin, and how unique and freaky the changes they've made to the character are ... he very well may end up being a Shredder / Krang hybrid just like the 4Kids 2k3 cartoon.

I hated it then, I still hate the idea of Shredder being an alien now. Too much sci-fi, and not enough grounding in the world of japanese ninja / samurai culture for my liking. That's the only relation I want of his to the turtles and Splinter.

Keep the sci-fi utroms separate from my ninja Oroku Saki / Foot Clan if you please.

Andrew NDB
10-24-2013, 10:53 AM
The biggest thing that's always compelled me about TMNT is the Japanese element. You know, the "good" ninjas vs. the "bad" ninjas, and all this intersecting history and intrigue surrounding the Hamato and Oroku families.

So what's the first order of business with TMNT Part 5? "Let's make all the Foot ninja regular guys in military uniforms with batons and guns instead of ninja weapons, then make the Shredder a white guy possibly carrying Krang." Um, what? I have no interest in such a thing.

We haven't even heard if Hamato Yoshi even exists in this universe. Probably doesn't, though that leaves the question of how Splinter learned how to fight.

Whatswiththeheadbands?
10-24-2013, 01:13 PM
We haven't even heard if Hamato Yoshi even exists in this universe. Probably doesn't, though that leaves the question of how Splinter learned how to fight.

Watching alot of martial arts movies?:lol:

Konchadunga
10-24-2013, 03:03 PM
As much as I hated 4Kids Shredder in retrospect, he was decent up until he was revealed as an alien and made the Villain Sue. His organization was very Japanese-themed; it used technology but not robots for its basic soldiers, and he was a competent threat. Therefor, maybe you can blame 4Kids for the alien thing, but even without that, Erich Sachs would still be a bastardization due to his complete lack of any ninja-like traits.

InsaneZane
10-24-2013, 03:20 PM
Why do you call it part 5? That's kind of ignorant

Why don't you Call it "the new movie" or"the 5th movie" or "the Michael Bay movie" like everyone else?

You shouldn't call it part 5 because its not until proven otherwise

ToTheNines
10-24-2013, 03:26 PM
The biggest thing that's always compelled me about TMNT is the Japanese element. You know, the "good" ninjas vs. the "bad" ninjas, and all this intersecting history and intrigue surrounding the Hamato and Oroku families.

Which is why the Ch'rell thing wasn't completely stupid. The 4kids show had the sense to have the Utroms originally crash land in Japan, and have Ch'rell become Oroku Saki.

I don't care what kind of freak 2014 Shredder ends up being, or what the deal is with his origin, the fact that he's a white dude is unforgivable. On top of that, they have the balls to act like calling him "Eric Sachs" is a clever shout out to "Oroku Saki".

blindturtle02
10-24-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm thinking there's a strong possibility that 4kids had something to do with it. As other drome members have said, it probably seemed like it'd be way cool to make Shredder a Krang hybrid. I'm not going to be surprised if it turns out this way. I liked the utrom Shredder so I guess I'll roll with this if they choose to go here again. Not too keen on the Foot being military guys with guns though.

Konchadunga
10-24-2013, 06:01 PM
A notable difference is that, even if I opposed it, I understand what the 2003 show gained from making Shredder an alien--it made him hard to kill, and allowed them to make him an ongoing arch nemesis without Fred Wolf's "he's incompetent and runs when defeated and the Turtles let him get away" excuse for his longetivity. I don't see any such benefit here. To be the villain just for one movie, an alien identity doesn't add anything unless a character looks and acts like an alien, and if they're still going with their human military reinvention for him, that's obviously not what they are doing.

snake
10-24-2013, 06:52 PM
Andrew himself voted for the third option :teek:

Anyways, it wouldn't be the 4kids series fault. And what are the chances of Sachs being an alien?

Shark_Blade
10-24-2013, 07:32 PM
It's their(movie team) own fault for making it stupid (alien idea).

CansecoBat
10-24-2013, 07:47 PM
Andrew himself voted for the third option :teek:

Self deprecating humor, all good in my book. Endearing.

:lol:

Avatar Yuffie
10-24-2013, 09:03 PM
I don't consider 4Kids' fault for marrying sci-fi with martial arts, as much as I cringe with Foot ninjas sitting on hovercrafts at the last part of Return to New York.

I wish Shredder was done differently. I don't care if Ch'rell canonically ate the sun and doomed galaxies, I can't really take evil Utroms seriously.

Pterobat
10-24-2013, 10:56 PM
This is all just theory, kids. It's pointless to attribute blame for something that might not even happen.

I'm still on the side that history is going to vindicate the 2003 cartoon and it won't be forgotten--but at the same time, it's not going to have the cultural penetration that the OT did. Just like with the Transformers cartoons, the Turtles film is probably going to take the most well-known part of the franchise and base a movie around that, while leaving the later parts to the nerds.

If they do make changes, they will be like the "the Turtles are aliens" thing: completely arbitrary, and not derived from the lesser-known parts of the franchise.

And even if, the slim-to-one-chance came that this Shredder was an alien, and the even slimmer chance that those who wrote that detail in were actually thinking of the one and only Ch'rell, and not just making it up...you still couldn't blame the 4Kids series. Because one work of media isn't responsible for the decisions others make with it.

I think The Shredder's likely going to be human. He might be whiter than a polar bear in a blizzard, but he's still going to be human.

Keldor1578
10-25-2013, 02:03 PM
As much as I hated 4Kids Shredder in retrospect, he was decent up until he was revealed as an alien and made the Villain Sue. His organization was very Japanese-themed; it used technology but not robots for its basic soldiers, and he was a competent threat. Therefor, maybe you can blame 4Kids for the alien thing, but even without that, Erich Sachs would still be a bastardization due to his complete lack of any ninja-like traits.

Yeah, Ch'rell was disguise as Oroku Saki and he was still a ninja, Unlike Eric Sachs who probably is going to be a military man.

Keldor1578
10-25-2013, 05:39 PM
This is all just theory, kids. It's pointless to attribute blame for something that might not even happen.

I'm still on the side that history is going to vindicate the 2003 cartoon and it won't be forgotten--but at the same time, it's not going to have the cultural penetration that the OT did. Just like with the Transformers cartoons, the Turtles film is probably going to take the most well-known part of the franchise and base a movie around that, while leaving the later parts to the nerds.

If they do make changes, they will be like the "the Turtles are aliens" thing: completely arbitrary, and not derived from the lesser-known parts of the franchise.

And even if, the slim-to-one-chance came that this Shredder was an alien, and the even slimmer chance that those who wrote that detail in were actually thinking of the one and only Ch'rell, and not just making it up...you still couldn't blame the 4Kids series. Because one work of media isn't responsible for the decisions others make with it.

I think The Shredder's likely going to be human. He might be whiter than a polar bear in a blizzard, but he's still going to be human.

This, is the movie fault if Eric Sachs end up being an alien.

Cipher
10-25-2013, 06:16 PM
Is thread joke?

CyberCubed
10-25-2013, 08:08 PM
Is thread joke?

Andrew must have gotten bored with taking shots at the Fred Wolf cartoon, so now he's going full throttle at the 4kids one. :P

Vivi
11-19-2013, 08:05 AM
You mean 'reason'? *Fault* makes it seem like a bad thing. :tlol:

Xav
11-19-2013, 10:04 AM
To be the villain just for one movie, an alien identity doesn't add anything unless a character looks and acts like an alien, and if they're still going with their human military reinvention for him, that's obviously not what they are doing.You're assuming Eric Sachs will only be the villain for one movie. Mine you that William Fichtner signed up for three movies.

Cowabunga Carl
11-19-2013, 05:38 PM
I got to agree though. It was 4kids that introduced the idea that Shredder didn't have to be Saki.

Galactus
11-19-2013, 06:26 PM
No. I highly doubt anyone involved in making this movie is is anything more than vaguely aware of the 4Kids series to be influenced by it.

Heck I doubt they've done anything but skimmed through episodes of the Fred Wolf series and maybe the movies for background.

I got to agree though. It was 4kids that introduced the idea that Shredder didn't have to be Saki.

Hmm arguably that started with the Image series and Lady Shredder.

I'd also argue that the Mirage Tales Vol. 2 'Worms of Madness' retconning that the Shredder from Leonardo #1 onwards wasn't really Oroku Saki. Ch'rell masquerading as Saki is a similar change if not more palatable. For all intents and purposes Ch'rell was Oroku Saki in that show. For the most part he came off as you would image Saki would with his true nature as afterthought. Even finding out there was a real Oroku Saki in the Lost Season the whole energy mumbo jumbo that connected all the Shredders came off as trying to say that Ch'rell was channeling the real guy.

Prowler
11-20-2013, 12:58 PM
Which is why the Ch'rell thing wasn't completely stupid. The 4kids show had the sense to have the Utroms originally crash land in Japan, and have Ch'rell become Oroku Saki.

I don't care what kind of freak 2014 Shredder ends up being, or what the deal is with his origin, the fact that he's a white dude is unforgivable. On top of that, they have the balls to act like calling him "Eric Sachs" is a clever shout out to "Oroku Saki".
I agree with this guy.

oldmanwinters
11-20-2013, 10:38 PM
Andrew, I love your poll options. :tlol: