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View Full Version : It bothered me that Mikey beat Raph so easily in the Battle Nexus tourney


B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 09:04 PM
This should have ended in a fluke win after Mikey takes advantage of Raph's arrogance after he gets tossed around a little bit, otherwise it was just Mikey effortlessly side-stepping and tripping Raph up despite previously being pretty scared to fight him, which doesn't make much sense.

CyberCubed
10-23-2014, 09:53 PM
Mike used Raph's aggression against him and tired him out.

B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 10:05 PM
Raph got literally no offense in and was effortlessly beaten. That doesn't sit well with me considering that Mikey was supposed to be afraid to fight him.

Plus, they could have devoted a little more time to that fight anyway. Why have two of the main characters square off only to devote like 30 seconds to it? If this were directed like an anime series would have, this fight would have probably been given an entire episode to develop.

pennydreadful
10-23-2014, 10:15 PM
If it were directed like DragonballZ, the Raph/Mikey fight alone could've taken several episodes to play out. :P

Mona_Lisa
10-23-2014, 10:18 PM
If it were directed like DragonballZ, the Raph/Mikey fight alone could've taken several episodes to play out. :P

lol!!! Yeah, for sure. Still it would have been nice if the fight were a little longer:D

B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 10:20 PM
It would have been nice if it were more than anything that it was.

Hell, the entire Battle Nexus plot could have been given like a half a season devoted to it with interesting potential match-ups between the turtles played out properly. Sh*t, Leo vs. Raph in a proper fight would have been awesome.

CyberCubed
10-24-2014, 01:37 PM
TMNT isn't a shonen anime like DBZ or Naruto. It doesn't need drawn out tournament battles, I loved the way they did it.

Rooish
10-24-2014, 08:22 PM
I thought the fight was a little silly with not a single punch being thrown. But I'm glad Mikey beat Raph easily. After all Raph gets to beat Mikey and Donnie easily in Nick. And Leo actually.

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 09:27 PM
Eh, doesn't matter, in the end, when it comes down to actually fighting the villains, Raph will always top Mikey.

Xiewin
10-24-2014, 10:06 PM
Yeah that always pissed me off ever since the first time I saw it.
Maybe I'm being a bit bias since Raph is my favorite turtle, but still...

Rooish
10-24-2014, 10:17 PM
:roll: Typical Raph fans can't handle a moment of him being outshone... don't see why the Turtles can't be fairly evenly matched, sometimes beating each other out and sometimes not. Then every Turtle's fans gets to be happy, no?

Shark_Blade
10-25-2014, 12:13 AM
It didn't bother me cause 2k3 Raph literally is a brainless thug when he's mad. Remember when he tried to kill Mikey over training?

He's like a bull that charges things mindlessly. Such simpleton, and Mikey outsmarted him easily.

Xiewin
10-25-2014, 03:57 AM
:roll: Typical Raph fans can't handle a moment of him being outshone... don't see why the Turtles can't be fairly evenly matched, sometimes beating each other out and sometimes not. Then every Turtle's fans gets to be happy, no?

I didn't mean to upset you dude, its my personal opinion. You're happy about mikey beating raph and I'm not. Thats all.

Maybe it's because I really dislike the 2003 Mikey, I love in him in the other interpretations but this one? Nahhh

ABrown
10-25-2014, 08:10 AM
Even though Raph has always been my favorite turtle, I really liked that Mikey beat him in that match. For me, I thought that it worked.

B.H.Bob
10-25-2014, 08:39 AM
:roll: Typical Raph fans can't handle a moment of him being outshone... don't see why the Turtles can't be fairly evenly matched, sometimes beating each other out and sometimes not. Then every Turtle's fans gets to be happy, no?

Stop being an ass dude. Nobody said they were upset that he lost, its that he was beaten so easily. It wasn't even a fight, Mikey just goes from being scared shitless to fight him, to casually tossing him aside.

Warhorse
10-25-2014, 09:01 AM
Yeah that always pissed me off ever since the first time I saw it.
Maybe I'm being a bit bias since Raph is my favorite turtle, but still...

Don't worry much. Everyone knows Raph holds back when it comes to Mikey, especially when he almost killed him that one time, he learned to restrain himself more than he lets on.

:roll: Typical Raph fans can't handle a moment of him being outshone... don't see why the Turtles can't be fairly evenly matched, sometimes beating each other out and sometimes not. Then every Turtle's fans gets to be happy, no?

Hey, us Raph fans have to deal with this with Leo and Karai nearly every time, so I have no idea what you're rambling about. I wish there was a time when Mikey or Donnie shows up Leo, but that never happened. I don't know why Raph fans get all of the hate.

Rooish
10-25-2014, 09:19 AM
Don't worry much. Everyone knows Raph holds back when it comes to Mikey, especially when he almost killed him that one time, he learned to restrain himself more than he lets on.

In the Battle Nexus perhaps he was holding back, but Mikey obviously was too, since he didn't even try to land a blow. I know this is partly because he was freaked out--which was 2003 Mikey's thing, being a spaz despite being a competent fighter--but it's not like he would have wanted to kick Raph's ass. Obviously both brothers would not want to injure each other. Keep in mind Raph almost killed Mikey that time because he was pissed that Mikey kicked his ass. I can agree that this Battle Nexus fight seemed disappointing and cheap in a way, because no blows were landed, but it was obviously teaching a good lesson: that the psyche is important in a battle and Mikey can use Raph's against him.

Hey, us Raph fans have to deal with this with Leo and Karai nearly every time, so I have no idea what you're rambling about. I wish there was a time when Mikey or Donnie shows up Leo, but that never happened. I don't know why Raph fans get all of the hate.

I wish that too, and also that Mikey or Donnie can show up Raph sometimes. There are various incarnations where I think they could, but not Nickelodeon which everyone has decided is the God given gospel. Anyway Raph always beats Leo in fights, so you have nothing to "deal with". I think that Raph fans get hate because they are so adamant that Raph is the best--not only the strongest but also the bravest, most loyal, most likely to comfort someone after he makes them feel bad as if it's fine that he made them feel bad in the first place--and should outmatch everyone hands down, when this is clearly up for dispute among the various incarnations of the Turtles. I mean in Mirage one time, Don and Raph almost fought, and I really think that Don could have beat him in Mirage, at least half the time.

Warhorse
10-25-2014, 09:35 AM
In the Battle Nexus perhaps he was holding back, but Mikey obviously was too, since he didn't even try to land a blow. I know this is partly because he was freaked out--which was 2003 Mikey's thing, being a spaz despite being a competent fighter--but it's not like he would have wanted to kick Raph's ass. Obviously both brothers would not want to injure each other. Keep in mind Raph almost killed Mikey that time because he was pissed that Mikey kicked his ass. I can agree that this Battle Nexus fight seemed disappointing and cheap in a way, because no blows were landed, but it was obviously teaching a good lesson: that the psyche is important in a battle and Mikey can use Raph's against him.



I wish that too, and also that Mikey or Donnie can show up Raph sometimes. There are various incarnations where I think they could, but not Nickelodeon which everyone has decided is the God given gospel. Anyway Raph always beats Leo in fights, so you have nothing to "deal with". I think that Raph fans get hate because they are so adamant that Raph is the best--not only the strongest but also the bravest, most loyal, most likely to comfort someone after he makes them feel bad as if it's fine that he made them feel bad in the first place--and should outmatch everyone hands down, when this is clearly up for dispute among the various incarnations of the Turtles. I mean in Mirage one time, Don and Raph almost fought, and I really think that Don could have beat him in Mirage, at least half the time.
I'm talking about 2k3 toon, and when has Raph ever won a fight with Leo? Not physically. Now when they argue, I would give you that, Raph has had the upperhand because Leo could be a dimwit sometimes in the show (Like during The Shredder Strikes and Leo already calling Shredder master, and Raph calling him out on it!) but those were far and few between moments.

Rooish
10-25-2014, 09:41 AM
In 2003 I think they only had a physical fight once, and yes Leo "won" (threw him off a roof accidentally). So I suppose Raph got the short end in 2003 from that one Season 1 fight, I just didn't take it to mean that Leo was better than Raph necessarily. Did Karai beat Raph? I don't remember it.

Throughout the incarnations though, Raph always beats Leo. In City at War he beat Leo. In The 2007 movie he beat Leo. In Nick in the first episode he beat Leo.

Warhorse
10-25-2014, 11:02 AM
In 2003 I think they only had a physical fight once, and yes Leo "won" (threw him off a roof accidentally). So I suppose Raph got the short end in 2003 from that one Season 1 fight, I just didn't take it to mean that Leo was better than Raph necessarily. Did Karai beat Raph? I don't remember it.

Throughout the incarnations though, Raph always beats Leo. In City at War he beat Leo. In The 2007 movie he beat Leo. In Nick in the first episode he beat Leo.

Karai beat Raph most of the time. The only time Raphael finally had had it with her and kicked her ass, was during Exodus, but it took Leo falling on her sword to bring the beast out in Raph. But, Karai often beat Leo, and I just felt they made her waaayyyy tooo powerful in the show. I like the way 2012 handles it more, in that, Nick's Karai can lose to the Turtles, so uses her henchmen to wear them out.

Shark_Blade
10-26-2014, 06:00 AM
In Nick in the first episode he beat Leo.
He got beaten by Leo back in that Casey Jones intro episode.

Warhorse
10-26-2014, 06:09 AM
He got beaten by Leo back in that Casey Jones intro episode.

Yeah, and in the same episode, Raph came along and hit Leo like a bus! Leo was even asking what the bus number was too!:lol:

Netkeeper
10-26-2014, 07:41 AM
I loved this fight. It's an excellent display of Mikey's cunning -- he knows what makes his brothers tick and he can manipulate that when he really wants to. He's physically weaker than Raph, so when it comes to raw fighting moves, he's in trouble. Resorting to other tactics isn't against the rules, it keeps them from getting seriously injured, and it nets Mikey the victory he wants. From his perspective, there is nothing to lose from this strategy.

In the early episode where Raph nearly killed Mikey, not only was Raph less in-control of his anger [obviously], but the situation was different. They were sparring. The goal in sparring is to actually fight. To practice moves and technique. Raw fighting moves. Comparing this situation to the above one doesn't work.

Rooish
10-26-2014, 11:10 AM
If we are comparing the Battle Nexus to the early sparring episode, Mikey still won in legitimate actual fighting/sparring, holding his own in terms of physical strength. And in Mirage. Raph came up behind him in 2003 with a wrench; he never "beat" Mikey. Not sure why Mikey was so scared of Raph in the Battle Nexus, given that--I guess that's just Mikey's thing, or Raph had put on some muscle since the first fight.

The point is that in 2003 Mikey beats Raph.

As for Karai, I don't know where to fit her on the hierarchy. I'm cool with her beating any of the Turtles, at least at first.

He got beaten by Leo back in that Casey Jones intro episode.

Oh yeah, that. Raph seriously has to get over the world's sorest loser thing when he loses in sparring. Then he goes and blames other people for making him angry (by winning) so he feels justified in seriously hurting them. He did the freak out when Don beat him as well in Nick. He's so barely remorseful; it reminds me of people who I never want in my life.

Gorilla Grodd
10-26-2014, 12:35 PM
TMNT is at its best when the Turtles all have their strengths and weaknesses but overall are pretty much equals. Individually each of them is very beatable, it's when they combine their ability and use teamwork that they become such a force to be reckoned with. Mirage handled this the best.

I've never been a fan of this idea that Mikey and Donnie should always have to job to Leo and Raph in these situations. One of the things that I wasn't a huge fan of in the first season of the Nick Toon was the constant "Mike and Don are much weaker and get run over in sparring by Leo/Raph" stuff. I'm glad they've gotten away just a bit from that in the recent seasons. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea that Leo/Raph are better pure fighters, but it was often portrayed in such a way that was a bit overboard.

None of the turtles are unbeatable, this includes Raphael. It's okay for him to lose. I think if you're holding his win/loss record in such high regard you're doing yourself a disservice.

Rooish
10-26-2014, 12:59 PM
I totally agree! I would like the Turtles to be able to all beat each other and lose to each other sometimes I like when they are close to equal, at least in an added up way.

In my head I liked to assume that each Turtle had like 1-2 others they usually win against and 1-2 they usually lose against and it balances out, but when I do the math it's impossible. Plus it's hard for me to imagine Leo being beaten usually by more than one of his brothers.

I always imagined that Leo should beat Don and Mike usually.

Raph would beat Leo usually.

Don would beat Raph and Mike usually.

And Mike would beat Raph usually. All of which wouldn't reflect their relative deadliness in the field which should be Leo then Raph then Mike then Don.

But that's my headcanon; obviously not Nick's.

Netkeeper
10-26-2014, 05:46 PM
I think Mikey was "scared" during the Battle Nexus because Raph is still physically stronger than he is. Another contributing factor is that his fear was probably something he comically exaggerated himself. It's another tactic. Making yourself appear dumber to your opponent so it catches them off-guard when you fight. I am not surprised that even though they're brothers and they know each other well, Raph still falls for it.

[Also, yes, I think all four of them roughly stand as equals. 2k3 did this, 2k12 doesn't.]

k_lala
10-28-2014, 09:59 AM
Mikey owned Raph the entire series they fought. So at least they were consistent. Just like how they were consistent with how weak Donnie was and he needed help a lot. You saw there was a pecking order and that only if Mikey focused and trained he had the biggest upside. Actually Raph had a huge upside as well if it weren't for his temper, since technically he was the strongest (and fastest according to stats but that's debatable).

Netkeeper
10-28-2014, 12:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Mikey is supposed to be faster. Not that things like that really matter much.

Gorilla Grodd
10-28-2014, 01:13 PM
I thought TMNT: Out of the Shadows had the best take on it.

Raph was the slowest but strongest and hit the hardest. Great for single targets.
Donnie wasn't very fast and didn't hit that hard but had great crowd control ability taking on lots of targets at once.
Mikey was the fastest and could move and combo like crazy but didn't hit very hard and could take the least amount of damage.
Leonardo was the most balanced, he didn't excel in any one area he was okay everywhere.

They're all on the same level, just with different specialties to deal with whatever situation arises. Alone none of them excel at every single situation, but together they can handle everything.

Netkeeper
10-28-2014, 01:15 PM
Except real fighting doesn't work like a video game. Sure, those stats work for a video game, but in a non-interactive medium such as comics or western animation, that's just sloppy.

Gorilla Grodd
10-28-2014, 01:36 PM
Except real fighting doesn't work like a video game. Sure, those stats work for a video game, but in a non-interactive medium such as comics or western animation, that's just sloppy.

Are you suggesting that real fighters don't have each have their own strengths, weaknesses and areas of expertise? Because as someone that's trained in various forms of martial arts since childhood I can tell you that is not true at all.

There is no reason this can't extend to the turtles in the comics/movies/toons. They all have situations where they excel and situations where they falter. Which is the thing that TMNT: OotS did a great job of illustrating in videogame form.

Netkeeper
10-28-2014, 01:41 PM
I'm saying that real fighters don't have stats laid out in the same way a video game character does and that non-interactive fighting shouldn't be approached the same way. I'm not saying similarities don't exist.

Gorilla Grodd
10-28-2014, 02:08 PM
The fact that it's a videogame and there are stats is irrelevant. It could have been a cartoon or comic with the same premise and it still holds up.

Raph: Strongest, best at taking out one single dangerous opponent with as few blows as possible.
Donnie: Mediocre physically, but great at intelligent crowd fighting tactics.
Mikey: Fastest, great at putting as many hits into a target as quickly as possible.
Leo: He's not the best at anything, but he can do it all decently. He gives out orders and supports the others when they need it.

Turtles show up to a fight. Their opponents are two dozen regular Foot Ninja, one of Shredder's Elite Guard, and Hun. Leo directs them accordingly. Raph is sent after the Elite Guard, Mikey gets Hun, and Donnie gets all of the fodder ninja. Since 24 ninja is kind of alot, Leo think it's best to first chip in and assist Donnie. Once they widdle the number down to 12 for Donnie to finish clearing out he switches off to assisting Mikey who has been using his speed and non-stop barrage to keep Hun rattled until he and Leo can put the kibosh on him. Immediately afterwards Leo looks to Raph to assist him....but it's unnecessary this time since Raph has just finished gutting the Elite Guard.

The idea has nothing to do with videogame mechanics.

Gorilla Grodd
10-28-2014, 02:20 PM
Because I'm bored I decided to write up my take on how I would like to see the turtles portrayed in terms of how they match-up with one another. These are not strict guidelines. Any turtle can beat any other at any time. This is just how I think it should go down most of the time.

Raph beats Don: Too much pure aggression and ferocity that overwhelms the methodical approach that Donnie takes to fighting.

Mike beats Raph: Too much speed and frustrating unpredictability that Raph just can't quite nail down.

Leo beats Mike: Leo is able to keep calm and maintain his technique and timing and able to overcome the madness that is Mikey.

Don beats Leo: Leonardo is a thinking man's fighter at heart, but Donnie is the one turtle that can match wits with him. If necessary throw in the concept that Donnie's reach advantage with the bo staff gives Leo issues that he doesn't have against Raph/Mikey.

Raph/Leo: Stalemate. While Raph can overwhelm Donnie's purely tactical approach, Leo has enough physicality to hold his own and support his strategic style. This is just such a frequent and classic match-up that I think it's best for it to stalemate regardless of your logic behind it.

Mike/Don: Stalemate. Like Leo, Donatello has the strategic mind to not be overwhelmed by the unpredictability of Mikey, but he lacks the physical attributes that allow Leo to win this one. Meanwhile Donnie is just too intelligent and defensively sound for Mikey to beat consistently.

So they each have a turtle that they match-up favorably against and one that they stalemate with.

k_lala
11-02-2014, 05:10 PM
I think Mikey is the fastest too but I believe they were more so portraying that he was the most athletic. The guy could jump and do all kinds of crazy moves. As far as stats I was referring to the comic book stats were raph had the best strength and speed and this series kind of reflected to books in a way.

Netkeeper
11-02-2014, 09:04 PM
Stats are ****ing stupid, nobody cares.

CyberCubed
11-02-2014, 10:46 PM
LOL @ people acting like this is a videogame or Japanese anime where the characters "level up" or earn "experience points."

Its a cartoon show. Its like real life athletics, you tire out and your body is going to give.

shuriken
11-03-2014, 04:32 PM
I thought it was an awesome twist. Mikey Just trolled his way to victory. Which was pretty damn great. Plus that set up the best one on one fight in Grudge match against Kluh.

Cure
11-03-2014, 08:23 PM
I thought it was an awesome twist. Mikey Just trolled his way to victory. Which was pretty damn great. Plus that set up the best one on one fight in Grudge match against Kluh.

That fight looked cool, I guess, but I wasn't into it. The fact that they had to throw in the subplot with that dude's family being cheats kinda made it clear that Michelangelo was going to win no matter what. There could have been SOME suspense by making me think he could actually lose. Especially since he deserved to lose.