PDA

View Full Version : Too much focus on Leo?


B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 10:10 PM
Sure, there were a lot of episodes devoted to each turtle, but each time there was a dramatic and/or important shift in the plot, it always involved Leo and his progression and the other 3 turtles were kinda just also there.

My main gripe is with the treatment of Raph and how little he's developing as a fighter and how I'm currently into season 4 and he can still barely even keep up with Karai. Sure I expect him to be below Leo and Shredder in skills, but he should be right up there at the top of the second tier, imo.

CyberCubed
10-23-2014, 10:24 PM
The Turtles are all focused one equally.

B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 10:26 PM
Not with the important sh*t. Not with episodes dealing with the Shredder. Most soley focused on Leo and his growth.

Shark_Blade
10-23-2014, 10:35 PM
Leo is so snobbish and unlikeable imo in 2k3, I find it hard to relate to him at all.

He's so one dimensional and flat. Predictable too.

CyberCubed
10-23-2014, 10:52 PM
Leo is so snobbish and unlikeable imo in 2k3, I find it hard to relate to him at all.

He's so one dimensional and flat. Predictable too.

What the hell are you talking about? 4kids Leo was one of the most developed versions of the character.

B.H.Bob
10-23-2014, 10:58 PM
What the hell are you talking about? 4kids Leo was one of the most developed versions of the character.

Yup, which is ultimately the point of this topic.

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 12:49 AM
The Turtles are all focused one equally.

No they weren't! Stop spreading blantant lies! Leonardo was even in an epsiode all by himself!

Leo is so snobbish and unlikeable imo in 2k3, I find it hard to relate to him at all.

He's so one dimensional and flat. Predictable too.

No he isn't. As much as I hated the constant focus on him, 2k3 had the best Leo, ever. 2k3 Leo leaves the 2012 Leo in the dust. And for someone who is constantly bashing 2k3, why do you keep hanging around here? Makes no sense.

IndigoErth
10-24-2014, 01:06 AM
Yes, I agree there was a lot of him. Maybe a bit too much. I do appreciate that he got so much attention, considering the first series (and not sure about the comics pre-2003) never really did all that much with him. Was always that he's kind of the leader and...well, there's that.

But yes, I can agree it was very Leo focused. Which I find interesting really since he's never really been a top fan favorite nor, to my understanding, of the creators.


I didn't find him unlikeable or snobby there at all...

Werecat
10-24-2014, 02:25 AM
Yes, I agree there was a lot of him. Maybe a bit too much. I do appreciate that he got so much attention, considering the first series (and not sure about the comics pre-2003) never really did all that much with him. Was always that he's kind of the leader and...well, there's that.

But yes, I can agree it was very Leo focused. Which I find interesting really since he's never really been a top fan favorite nor, to my understanding, of the creators.


I didn't find him unlikeable or snobby there at all...

Leo was a fan fav during the 2k3 series, which is understandable because Leo was the only one to get meaningful character development.

I have to agree with the OP. I watched every episode and a lot of it focused on Leo and his struggles alone. It was so focused on Leo it even got frustrating. 'cause as a Raph fan I had no reason to watch the show except to see Raph get bashed in several ways. But I kept watching, hoping for a change that never came.

Leo's character was very unlikable because he had everything while growing up but acted as if he had a troubled past, which never existed. Too over dramatic. Too ungrateful. Leo was much more of a typical Mary Sue.

But 2k12 Leo was more human, by that I mean he made more mistakes and grew despite them. 2k3 Leo never made mistakes and all characters were forced to be inferior. While 2k12 Leo is among equals and still has a solid, likable, character.

2k3 wasnt a bad series though. I liked it. Just wished they didn't focus on Leo at an obnoxious level.

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 02:41 AM
But yes, I can agree it was very Leo focused. Which I find interesting really since he's never really been a top fan favorite nor, to my understanding, of the creators.
.

Well, if I'm understanding things right, Leo got lots of the main development in the comics to, and was often the one to deal with Shredder the most, and win most of the fights, and the reason being, I believe, was because he was the most neutral of the Turtles for the creators. Laird obviously favored Donnie the most, and Eastman has been quoted as saying that Mikey is his favorite character while Raph is his favorite character to write. So, probably to overcome any long, drawn out debates and bickering, Laird and Eastman decided to just use Leo as the neutral character that gets to shine in most of the key storylines.

Blossombrooks
10-24-2014, 04:47 AM
As a Leo fan the fact that this series gave him so much progression was the very reason I love it so much. No such thing as too much Leo in my book ;)
His attitude that he had a troubled past stemmed from two things, the responsability he felt for his brothers and failure. It wasn't really a troubled past so much as a troubled present. I've heard Eastman and Laird's preferences before but I don't think thats the reason for the Leo focus, I thnk it's because of him being the leader and even if they enjoyed writing the others more a solid leader with growth would have given them the scope to do that. I mean could Donnie have spent so much time on what he wanted to do if Leo was a useless leader? Could Mikey have retained his childlike innocence? Who would Raph have rebelled against? Like it or not Leo got the focus because it made sense.
Besides the others all had their shining moments which were well done, they each had episodes that were more theirs than the others, no it wasn't equal but perhaps that was what the show needed.
I realise many like 2012 Leo more than the 2003 version but I do think the new Leo is going to grow up to be pretty much like the 2003 one, we never saw the much of younger Leo but if we had I think he'd be a lot like 2012 Leo.

Jester
10-24-2014, 05:08 AM
Is 4Kids Leo-centric? Yes. Is it "Too much"? Not really. Every Turtle gets his time to shine...and just imagine if it was more Mikey-centric. :P

DarkLightDragon
10-24-2014, 06:55 AM
I'm just going to copy/paste what I said in another thread since it rings true here.

Aside from the original 1990 film and to an extent Mirage, there never seemed to be a *really* good portrayal of Leo. It almost seemed like Leo got the shaft in terms of being a 'favorite' Turtle or given as good writing/interactions as his brothers got. He was just the unofficial leader, that's it. There seemed to be a lot of untapped potential regarding how he personally felt about shouldering so much responsibility and how failure was an inevitable thing every time they got themselves into deep s*it, and I feel the Mirage or the FW series didn't completely grasp that. Here, we got that in spades. Yeah, I understand it might not be everyone's cup of tea and can see how the 'Super Leo' can be backed up, but to me, it's a whole lot better than what came before. And another thing I want to give this show credit for is that it paved the way for more decent portrayals for Leo:

-The '07 movie (to an extent. Any flaws you could make about this one that would file under more of the flaws of the movie's script)
-IDW
-And of course, the 2012 Nick show

These three examples I feel, were probably influenced by 2k3 in some way or another and still managed to carry over what could make Leo an appealing character worth writing about while making their own twist on it.

Sumac
10-24-2014, 01:20 PM
I don't think 2k3 was Leo-centric.
It's true that Leo was more developed in this series, more than the others, but it wasn't for a cost of development of other characters.

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 01:33 PM
I don't think 2k3 was Leo-centric.
It's true that Leo was more developed in this series, more than the others, but it wasn't for a cost of development of other characters.

Hey, why don't you read the sypnosis on the episodes of 2k3, and then come back and say this. Shredder, Karai, Usagi, THe Ancient One, The Shredder Strikes, The Shredder Strikes Back, Tales of Leo, Exodus one and two, The Ninja Tribunal, The Ancient One, City at War, Prodigal Son, all of these were parts of major arcs that all centered on Leonardo. He had the most focus and had the best and the most storylines. Anyone that rebuts this is living in denial.

IndigoErth
10-24-2014, 03:15 PM
Laird obviously favored Donnie the most, and Eastman has been quoted as saying that Mikey is his favorite character while Raph is his favorite character to write. So, probably to overcome any long, drawn out debates and bickering, Laird and Eastman decided to just use Leo as the neutral character that gets to shine in most of the key storylines.
Aw, poor boy. Convenient coincidence that he works so hard to be a star pupil and seek Splinter's approval while being the least favored by his creators. At least I guess neutrality worked out for him in some ways.

masterninja
10-24-2014, 04:41 PM
Sure, there were a lot of episodes devoted to each turtle, but each time there was a dramatic and/or important shift in the plot, it always involved Leo and his progression and the other 3 turtles were kinda just also there.

My main gripe is with the treatment of Raph and how little he's developing as a fighter and how I'm currently into season 4 and he can still barely even keep up with Karai. Sure I expect him to be below Leo and Shredder in skills, but he should be right up there at the top of the second tier, imo.

I felt like for a long time Leo was depressed and was getting a bit to dark.

Rooish
10-24-2014, 07:02 PM
I believe, was because he was the most neutral of the Turtles for the creators. Laird obviously favored Donnie the most, and Eastman has been quoted as saying that Mikey is his favorite character while Raph is his favorite character to write.

When did Eastman say that? I have never heard that. I have seen him say many times that Raphael is his favourite. The example that I have on me for sure is in the Artobiography. At best it seems like he likes Mikey third best after Raph and Casey, although you wouldn't know it by him constantly drawing Mikey tiny and in the back in group shots.

I don't really think this was the reason for Leo's focus in the comics because the first issue focused on Leo as the leader (second most was Raph) and I doubt the favourites were established so early, particularly since Don and Mike had no personality. I think Leo was the main turtle (although in Mirage Raph was a very close second) simply because he was the leader and had a straight man to work with.

As for this thread, I agree that Leo had the major spotlight in 2003 but that was okay with me since his arc was compelling. Raph may have gotten the short end of the stick; I think Donnie and Mikey had good arcs too. I liked that Raphael was always a steady reliable fighter but the show actually gave Mikey a chance to shine and develop as a fighter, surpassing Raph. Anyway, Raph is the main character of the movies (aggravatingly, unnecessarily so in 2007) and probably the most compelling of the characters in the Mirage and Image comics. He's had plenty, plenty of spotlight. In the OT it was Donnie and Mikey, but Mikey was a joke. In Nick it's Donnie to an annoying degree. In IDW they have all had a lot of focus and development, Leo perhaps least. It's all good.

TheSkeletonMan939
10-24-2014, 08:09 PM
Is 4Kids Leo-centric? Yes. Is it "Too much"? Not really. Every Turtle gets his time to shine...and just imagine if it was more Mikey-centric. :P

We call that "Fast Forward".

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 08:49 PM
When did Eastman say that? I have never heard that. I have seen him say many times that Raphael is his favourite. The example that I have on me for sure is in the Artobiography. At best it seems like he likes Mikey third best after Raph and Casey, although you wouldn't know it by him constantly drawing Mikey tiny and in the back in group shots.


In one of his last Q&A, someone from this site asked who his favorite character is, and he said it was Michelangelo.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2dkbtl/kevin_eastman_here_cocreator_of_teenage_mutant/

[]Bob002 8 points 2 months ago*
Who is your favorite Turtle?

[]iAmKevinEastman[S] 24 points 2 months ago
That's easy - Michelangelo is my favorite turtle. He was the first ever drawn. Even though it's hard to pick, he is my favorite.

But, he does contradict himself, because in a previous interview, he says it's Raph who is his favorite.

http://www.movieweb.com/exclusive-kevin-eastman-breaks-out-of-his-shell-with-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles

It seems that everyone has their favorite Turtle - mine is Michelangelo because I always thought nunchucks were cool - but do you have a personal favorite?
Kevin Eastman: Yes, absolutely. Raphael has been my favorite. He was the most fun to write because, as a writer you sort of pull personalities either than impart on you, based on you, or based on people you know. Michelangelo was based off one of the funniest guys I ever met. He would crack you up in class when he shouldn't be, but Raphael I just seemed to relate with. Donatello was always Pete's favorite, because he was very sort of Zen-like, in keeping things focused and simple.

Rooish
10-24-2014, 08:56 PM
Very interesting. Wow. I feel like I've seen him say Raphael is his favourite several times. I think both Kevin and Peter have horrendous memories--had a bit too much fun in the 80s methinks :lol:

Edit: I am reading that Reddit thread and are we sure this is Eastman? He said Mike is his favourite more than once--and it sounds like he is referring to the Nickelodeon Mikey. He also claims to have never been asked about the age order (really??). If it is Eastman, it seems that both he and Peter Laird treat Donatello as older than Raphael, for what that's worth to Nickelodeon and fans.

Warhorse
10-24-2014, 10:26 PM
Very interesting. Wow. I feel like I've seen him say Raphael is his favourite several times. I think both Kevin and Peter have horrendous memories--had a bit too much fun in the 80s methinks :lol:

Edit: I am reading that Reddit thread and are we sure this is Eastman? He said Mike is his favourite more than once--and it sounds like he is referring to the Nickelodeon Mikey. He also claims to have never been asked about the age order (really??). If it is Eastman, it seems that both he and Peter Laird treat Donatello as older than Raphael, for what that's worth to Nickelodeon and fans.

I don't know if it's him 100%, but there are people on here that are convinced that it was him. And I don't think Laird and Eastman never really cared about the ages.

k_lala
10-28-2014, 10:56 AM
All the characters had focus on them. Maybe Don had the least but you still knew who he was, there were one shot episodes of each character, more than one i assume.

LeotheLateBloomer
10-28-2014, 08:44 PM
Hey, why don't you read the sypnosis on the episodes of 2k3, and then come back and say this. Shredder, Karai, Usagi, THe Ancient One, The Shredder Strikes, The Shredder Strikes Back, Tales of Leo, Exodus one and two, The Ninja Tribunal, The Ancient One, City at War, Prodigal Son, all of these were parts of major arcs that all centered on Leonardo. He had the most focus and had the best and the most storylines. Anyone that rebuts this is living in denial.

That doesn't exactly mean that the other turtles didn't get their fair share of episodes. If anything, Mike and Raph get more focus in this series than in the Nick cartoon.

Turtle Park
10-29-2014, 02:04 AM
Part of me agreed that the show has too much focus on Leo.
But on the other hand, they also have the moment like Christmas episode witch we can see Mikey got a cat and kick asses to save the toys.
Also, in season 4. The rematch episode, Mikey really make some progress.
Or the Uncle Augie episode, Don and April team up to find her uncle.
Meet Casey Jones, Plant racer that focus on Raph's situation.

Anyway, beside the main story that involve all four turtles.
I also enjoy other episode that just have few characters to build the story.
And I think it had the character development for each of them.

k_lala
11-02-2014, 06:05 PM
I've seen ppl post on here saying there was too much focus on Raphael or too much on Mikey...so what is it? Leo is the leader so it makes sense.

Levia24
12-12-2014, 06:38 PM
The way I see it, even if there's a lot of focus on Leo (which I appreciate to the fullest), it was a genius move - TMNT 2003 series was a huge success and had left a lasting legacy behind it. Like other users said in this thread, Leo is the leader so it's natural he deserves most attention. Also he's the most balanced one, and has many layers to his personality; making him most interesting to watch (in general).
Besides, this is what audience wants anyhow - if you look at TMNT IDW comics for instance, all freaking chapters featuring Leo in some dramatic manner aren't available for online viewing (unlike chapters with other characters, which are). Weather some like it or not, Leo is TMNT's golden child.

Donny's computer84
01-12-2015, 12:09 AM
For me, they have too much focus on Leo. Like the episode with Ancient One remind me of Yoda and Luke.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-12-2015, 12:15 AM
I think Season Four was where too much focus was placed on Leo, though it was somewhat organic to the story (specifically the fallout from "Exodus").

Donny got a good bit of focus towards the end of the season with the mutant outbreak and his subsequent mutation.

Mikey was (still) Battle Nexus champion...

Raph didn't get crap. :tgrumble:

penumbra369
01-17-2015, 01:17 AM
In thinking through this topic for myself, I apply a question someone asked about April in the Nick TMNT forum: Is 4Kids Leo a true Mary Sue?

There are similarities between the two - their tendency to be extremely powerful and triumphant and headstrong, just for starters. But there are also differences. April's new on the scene, a high school student unlocking psychic powers, just starting to train in ninjitsu. Then there's Leo, the oldest of four raised and disciplined in ninjitsu. His progression seems more natural, better-paced I guess. I can buy him becoming a strong ninja motivated by devotion to his whole family, everyone he's known and loved since birth. "Tales of Leo" tells me all I need to know about why he adores Splinter, who teaches with a firm but gentle wisdom that shapes Leo into the turtle he is. That in turn makes him an anchor for his brothers, whether they like it or not *coughRaphcough*. :)

I wouldn't say he's a total Sue because he does struggle with the burden of leadership and the self-doubt that accompanies it. He also deals poorly with anger. I like that he faces his struggles in earnest throughout the show, which means the spotlight is on him a lot. But that doesn't mean his bros or everyone else is a cardboard cutout. The focus on him often encompasses these others. He wouldn't be the same without them, just like they wouldn't be the same without him. Iron sharpens iron.

tl;dr version: Nope. Not too much focus. It's just right. ;)