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CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-11-2015, 04:52 PM
For me, I think the 4Kids series ended with Season Four and the conclusion of "Good Genes". I don't believe that a show can radically change directions after four well-received and excellent seasons and survive. You may sell more toys with flashy new characters, but it's just jumping the shark and inevitably losing your established audience. My opinion only, of course, but it does seem fairly inarguable that the show rapidly declined in popularity once Fast Forward happened, and that the same could very well have happened with the anime-styled "Ninja Tribunal".

My question is this: If you could have continued the cartoon in the same vein of storytelling as the first four seasons, what would you have done? What comic storylines would you have adapted? What new characters would you have introduced? What conflicts or character developments would you have added?

oldmanwinters
01-11-2015, 06:13 PM
I think the Ninja Tribunal season was a pretty natural direction for the show to take after season 4. The execution, on the other hand, wasn't so great. I really hated the last two episodes of that season. If I had been story editor, I like to think I would have toned down or eliminated all the ridiculous dragon avatar business.

CyberCubed
01-11-2015, 06:18 PM
I'm honestly baffled how anyone could come to this conclusion since Season 5 was set up entire in Season 4 even prior to the last episode.

Redeemer
01-11-2015, 06:21 PM
For me, I think the 4Kids series ended with Season Four and the conclusion of "Good Genes". I don't believe that a show can radically change directions after four well-received and excellent seasons and survive. You may sell more toys with flashy new characters, but it's just jumping the shark and inevitably losing your established audience. My opinion only, of course, but it does seem fairly inarguable that the show rapidly declined in popularity once Fast Forward happened, and that the same could very well have happened with the anime-styled "Ninja Tribunal".

My question is this: If you could have continued the cartoon in the same vein of storytelling as the first four seasons, what would you have done? What comic storylines would you have adapted? What new characters would you have introduced? What conflicts or character developments would you have added?

Well considering Season 4 ends on a cliff hanger episode "Ninja Tribunal" I doubt the 4kids series was designed to end on season 4.
But honestly I am shocked Lair green lighted a season like this. It is so out there as far as TMNT. It is really epic and when I first saw it. I thought hell yeah!!!!:lol:

Season 5-I would have brought back "Rat King" for the first half of the season and then I would have brought slash and bishop in for the second half of the season. Essentially Bishop would complete his research or hit a mile stone and create his own hybrid turtle. "Slash"

And then
Season 6- I would have gone the IDW route and brought a resurrected Oroku Saki back curtesy of Karia.

oldmanwinters
01-11-2015, 06:23 PM
I'm honestly baffled how anyone could come to this conclusion since Season 5 was set up entire in Season 4 even prior to the last episode.

The Ancient One?

Couldn't really make sense of your grammar, but I seem to remember it is teased quite a bit through hints and flashbacks like Yoshi's job as an Utrom guardian.

ToTheNines
01-11-2015, 06:44 PM
Yeah season five was dreadful, but its setup throughout season four was pretty epic and got me hyped, so at least they finished the story.

It really wouldn't have been that bad if they toned down the powers and flashy lights... and dragon transformations lol. Also, the acolytes should have either never existed, or never been brought back after their "deaths".

CyberCubed
01-11-2015, 06:57 PM
The Ancient One?

Couldn't really make sense of your grammar, but I seem to remember it is teased quite a bit through hints and flashbacks like Yoshi's job as an Utrom guardian.

No, I mean with the Foot Mystics and them talking about the, "True Shredder" even before the final Season 4 episode. They tell Karai that her father was an, "Utrom abomination" and work with Bishop to free themselves from Karai's control.

I also didn't mind the anime/dragon transformations, otherwise the fight with Demon Shredder would have been a carbon copy of Ch'rell. Why can't they use anime powers for a change? It was only for like...3 episodes anyway.

Jephael
01-11-2015, 06:59 PM
I'm with CyberCubed on this. I enjoyed the heck out of the Ninja Tribunal storyarc. I thought it was the best part of the entire series, and it had such an epic conclusion!!!

Eurydemus
01-11-2015, 07:03 PM
The whole Tribunal and resurrection thing was a tad dull, in my opinion. Given a choice, if the turtles had to contend with an ancient evil over the course of an entire season, I'd have preferred the Necro Monster from the "Darkness Within".

Imagine (the much later) TMNT Infestation II comic adapted into 2K3, but greatly expanded. Hell, you can probably keep the Tribunal training, but instead of preparing to face off against old-timey Shredder, the brothers have to deal with a creature (or creatures) who can turn their worst fears or greatest desires against them.

TMNachoT
01-11-2015, 07:53 PM
More episodes with Utroms, Rat King and jhana, the introduction of characters like complete carnage and radical, cha ocho , etc.

CyberCubed
01-11-2015, 08:29 PM
More episodes with Utroms, Rat King and jhana, the introduction of characters like complete carnage and radical, cha ocho , etc.

That probably would have happened if Season 5 was 26 episodes instead of 12.

Had Season 5 gotten a full season order we likely would have seen tons of other stuff in the middle before Shredder returned.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-11-2015, 11:53 PM
I'm not saying Ninja Tribunal was terrible (I personally hated the overdose on mysticism, even though I did love the setup)... I'm saying it was a drastic tonal shift. As was Fast Forward, as was Back to the Sewers. They were gimmicky.

Had 4Kids kept the tone of the first four seasons, I would have loved to see:


Baxter Stockman going after April O'Neil with a new battlesuit (Mirage Volume 2)
Agent Braunze as a former comrade of Agent Bishop
The experimental mutant from "Dragon's Brew" being restored to his humanity and family
Pimiko adapted as the daughter of Yukio Mashimi (A Tale of Master Yoshi) and bent on revenge
"The Virus" / "Attack of the Replicants" / "Splinter Cell" adaptations (Tales Vol. 2)
"Masks Parts I and II" adaptations
"Blind Faith" adaptation
"Loops Parts I and II" adaptation
Glurin or Dr. X as recurring Utrom characters
Utrom First Contact (Volume 4)
Raphael leading a section of the Foot Clan and taking up the mantle of the Shredder temporarily (Volume 3)
Donatello going on Utrom adventures with Leatherhead and Fugitoid
Michelangelo becoming a tour guide, dealings with the Styracodeons and Tricerations (Volume 4)

mrminister4446
01-12-2015, 07:41 AM
I like season 5, and even if some people didn't like it, the medallions they had were gone, so it only lasted 1 season. Had it lasted longer, it might have ruined how the turtles are supposed to be (ninja, not over powered people shooting things and turning into dragons) So it was good to have as a break from the regular stuff.

But if for some reason they cancelled it and started from scratch, I would not have wanted them to bring back Utrom shredder (even though he is awesome) and I am not so sure about adding new villains, so I'd like to see the turtles just finish it with the villains form Season 4.

Usagi Miyamoto
01-12-2015, 11:09 AM
Honestly only Back To The Sewers was really disappointing for me. I did find Season 5 weak and the transformation attacks/dragons were the lowest point, but there were still some good episodes like Membership Drive in there. Fast Forward was certainly different and as a child that's when I stopped watching because of that, but looking back at it some things were actually interesting in it. Had they gotten their second FF season they'd have done a Space Usagi episode, which would have been awesome.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-12-2015, 12:02 PM
I think if the Ninja Tribunal had been spread out over 26 episodes instead of condensed to 13 (where only "Membership Drive" was not Tribunal-centric), it would have been more palatable to me.

Fast Forward, though, can't be redeemed for me; Cody and Serling both annoyed me. If Fast Forward had been much more aligned towards the post-First Contact world of Mirage Volume 4, I would have liked it.

Usagi Miyamoto
01-12-2015, 02:13 PM
I can see that. I definitely preferred the prior 4 seasons, but that 5 and 6 still had enjoyable moments to them is my point. And while the Tribunal and FF at least took different paths(at times) BttS was a strictly worse version of the first four seasons.

k_lala
01-13-2015, 02:29 PM
Well the true shift in direction ended after season 5. And for me personally that's how it should have ended with the Turtles Forever. FF and BTTS was just extra stuff on the side and it was your choice to view it or not. To me its like when Michael Jordan came back to play with the Wizards.

ABrown
01-13-2015, 04:04 PM
I have absolutely no problem with the fifth season. Honestly, I really enjoyed it. It kinda felt like it could've been a very nice way to wrap up the series. And I really came to love Fast Forward once I finally got to see the fifth season. The only season that I wasn't all that crazy about was the Back To The Sewer season. I'm just glad that BTTS was only 13 out of (what was it) 155 episodes.

Bry
01-13-2015, 05:36 PM
Yeah, I certainly didn't mind season five. It wasn't perfect by any stretch, but it was a lot better than what came after. (And considering Serling mysteriously vanished before "Turtles Forever", I like that you can basically forget Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer ever happened if you want to.)

It got a bit too "mystical" for my tastes, and I didn't care for the "dragon forms" stuff, but a final showdown against the original, once-human Shredder was a decent plot to go out on, and teaming up with their former enemies (with Karai redeeming herself a bit) was a very welcome development. Hamato Yoshi's spirit being the one to kill Saki worked great for me as the capper. I'd have to rewatch it to be sure (and I actually managed to snag a used copy of the DVD for cheap a year or two back), but I remember liking more than I disliked. It definitely deserved better treatment than it got at the time.

ToTheNines
01-13-2015, 07:23 PM
To me its like when Michael Jordan came back to play with the Wizards.

Haha, perfect.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-13-2015, 07:32 PM
If they hadn't gone with the dragon forms, and if they had either toned down on the mysticism or spread it out across a full season, I could maybe enjoy it. Oh, and the other four acolytes were useless... they were just there to be killed off, but oh no! They survived because we can't kill anyone in a kids' cartoon!

However, the core idea of the One True Shredder was brilliant, as was the Foot Clan, the EPF, and the TMNT teaming up to defeat him.

tmntpower1988
01-14-2015, 10:11 AM
I have absolutely no problem with the fifth season. Honestly, I really enjoyed it. It kinda felt like it could've been a very nice way to wrap up the series.

I loved season 5 too. The only problem I had with it was the absence of Leatherhead.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-14-2015, 10:16 AM
I loved season 5 too. The only problem I had with it was the absence of Leatherhead.

I hear ya on that! Never enough LH!

k_lala
01-15-2015, 03:02 PM
I can understand peoples concerns with it being too mystical or even power ranger like. To me I loved it, because it fit the story. The entire series lead up to this point. If there was going to be a one true shredder Oroko Saki from the past. Only magic would make sense and if he was going to be a true threat to the world you have to over power him by making him into a god of sorts.

I really hated what BTTS version of him coming back with all the Shredders, it made no sense and really P'Od me. Like the Utron Shredder holding his own against him. BTTS was just god awful!

ABrown
01-15-2015, 05:31 PM
I really hated what BTTS version of him coming back with all the Shredders, it made no sense and really P'Od me. Like the Utron Shredder holding his own against him. BTTS was just god awful!

Actually, it was stated during the fifth season that because Karai had assumed the identity of The Shredder, she did have the ability to weaken the demon shredder and could pose a threat to him. So it is possible that the utrom Shredder could do the same.

Wildcat
01-16-2015, 03:50 AM
I really liked Ninja Tribunal. It wasn't anymore outrageous than anything else they encountered prior imo. That was the end of the series for me.

Been a long time since I've seen it so don't remember everything exactly but once Fast Forward came that was it. I never finished watching FF. I would now though. Don't think I finished Back to the Sewers either. Not that it was awful it was just FF 2 basically. FF/BttS is like its own series to me.

Thought Turtles Forever was great. Regardless of what you thought of FF/BttS it was done well enough you could ignore them as mentioned before.

Would continued Karai and Bishop storylines.

Gosh was the series hurting or something that they really needed FF? I didn't post much here then so I don't know. Didn't keep track of the news and such.

The-Shredder
01-16-2015, 08:20 PM
Gosh was the series hurting or something that they really needed FF? I didn't post much here then so I don't know. Didn't keep track of the news and such.

From what I gathered, it mostly had to do with ratings and toy sales in decline by season 4. So, to get kids interested again, they came up with Fast Forward. I have to admit, it was pretty exciting at the time since it was something fresh and new, but I can see why it wasn't as much of a success as it was anticipated to be since it took the Turtles out of their zone for a long time, and the fact that it aired only on Saturday mornings on 4Kids TV. I too was bummed out about the Ninja Tribunal season getting pushed aside, but it didn't bother me too much.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-16-2015, 08:26 PM
Toy sales. Screws up good storytelling every time. :fshifty:

Wildcat
01-16-2015, 10:08 PM
Oh. Well it's not just that Ninja Tribunal got delayed it's that FF ever happened in the first place.

Like this topic...we can only imagine or think of what could have been had the series continued naturally.

Anyone else think they actually planned a traditional season? They must have had certain plans or ideas they were thinking of I assume.

mrminister4446
01-17-2015, 05:16 AM
Oh. Well it's not just that Ninja Tribunal got delayed it's that FF ever happened in the first place.

Like this topic...we can only imagine or think of what could have been had the series continued naturally.

Anyone else think they actually planned a traditional season? They must have had certain plans or ideas they were thinking of I assume.

I would have loved to see something a bit like season 4 after season 5.

k_lala
01-20-2015, 11:43 AM
Actually, it was stated during the fifth season that because Karai had assumed the identity of The Shredder, she did have the ability to weaken the demon shredder and could pose a threat to him. So it is possible that the utrom Shredder could do the same.

Yes but that was through meditation not hand to hand fighting.

mrminister4446
01-20-2015, 04:01 PM
Yes but that was through meditation not hand to hand fighting.

If the Demon Shredder came back, maybe he would be weakened, and not as powerfull as before?

neatoman
01-23-2015, 12:11 PM
The first time I watched the season I did think it was really weird, I still think that but it seems more fitting now.

CyberCubed
01-25-2015, 10:49 AM
Season 5 was fine. I see no problem with the Turtles turning into dragons for a mystical Shredder.

At least it wasn't a carbon copy of every Ch'rell fight.

Jephael
01-25-2015, 10:58 AM
Season 5 was fine. I see no problem with the Turtles turning into dragons for a mystical Shredder.

At least it wasn't a carbon copy of every Ch'rell fight.

Yea, Utrom Shredder got real tiresome after. Even the dialogue got repetitive. Plus he never had any real motive except that he wanted to conquer the universe.

Xav
01-27-2015, 04:54 AM
Well he did want revenge on the Turtles and Utroms.

ToTheNines
01-27-2015, 05:38 AM
Yea, Utrom Shredder got real tiresome after. Even the dialogue got repetitive. Plus he never had any real motive except that he wanted to conquer the universe.

You turtles have been a thorn in my side long enough!

turtlefanforever
01-27-2015, 09:54 PM
I liked it. Season 5 was my favorite season actually. Wouldn't change a thing or tell it differently

k_lala
01-28-2015, 09:45 AM
If the Demon Shredder came back, maybe he would be weakened, and not as powerfull as before?

Now your just making up stuff. He was originally powerful. He was resurrected and still powerful. Even if we just go by your assumption and was extremely less powerful. That original Shredder should own all, because his H2H was solid. I'm not discounting Chre'll's H2H, i've always wanted to see him vs Bishop. But this demon one had H2H and mystic powers, its like me vs you but i can shoot fireballs and fly. Even if the mystics powers were limited its still one sided.

mrminister4446
01-28-2015, 12:36 PM
Now your just making up stuff. He was originally powerful. He was resurrected and still powerful. Even if we just go by your assumption and was extremely less powerful. That original Shredder should own all, because his H2H was solid. I'm not discounting Chre'll's H2H, i've always wanted to see him vs Bishop. But this demon one had H2H and mystic powers, its like me vs you but i can shoot fireballs and fly. Even if the mystics powers were limited its still one sided.

The turtles completely destroyed his helmet and gauntlet, which significantly weakened him. If he was resurrected again, maybe he would be even weaker than that. I am not saying he would/should have if it ever happened, I am just saying thats how it would need to be done in order to make it fair.

k_lala
01-28-2015, 07:24 PM
The turtles completely destroyed his helmet and gauntlet, which significantly weakened him. If he was resurrected again, maybe he would be even weaker than that. I am not saying he would/should have if it ever happened, I am just saying thats how it would need to be done in order to make it fair.

I get that, but he had all his helmet and gauntlet with him in BTTS. Why i'm saying that theory wouldn't be true is because this wasn't the first time that he was defeated and buried. The first time they destroyed him i mean the 4 Guardian Shredders and separated his helmet, etc. He came back he had it on and he still was powerful.

I get your theory but still not good enough for me. I'm just pretending that episode never existed.

mrminister4446
01-29-2015, 06:53 AM
I get that, but he had all his helmet and gauntlet with him in BTTS. Why i'm saying that theory wouldn't be true is because this wasn't the first time that he was defeated and buried. The first time they destroyed him i mean the 4 Guardian Shredders and separated his helmet, etc. He came back he had it on and he still was powerful.

I get your theory but still not good enough for me. I'm just pretending that episode never existed.

I just pretend that FF and BttS never existed :P

But anyways, I think that he just made new ones which didn't have any powers. It was just one episode and doesn't matter much.

turtlefanforever
01-29-2015, 08:53 AM
that episode was kind of confusing. I wonder if they got renewed for another season if they'd even bother diving into that.