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ZariusTwo
01-20-2015, 03:31 PM
Marvel Comics have revealed the game-changing events of the forthcoming Secret Wars event by Jonathan Hickman will see the death of the mainstream and Ultimate Marvel universes, with both merging and forming part of Battleworld, where various other universes will seek refuge on to hold off extinction for as long as they can.

The big news delivered during the event is that the Marvel Universe and Ultimate Universe will combine in the inciting incident of "Secret Wars," in an "incursion" as described in Hickman's "Avengers" and "New Avengers" run. The end result is Battleworld, which has been previously partly revealed by a series of teaser images drawing off of past Marvel history -- and it's not just those two prominent universes that will be colliding.

"The Ultimate Universe, the Marvel Universe, they're going to slap together," Alonso said. "Imagine two pizzas: They're going to combine toppings, some toppings are going to drop off. And that is the Marvel Universe moving forward. It's more than the Marvel Universe and the Ultimate Universe, it's all the universes you can imagine. That is the Marvel Universe going forward."

The series of previously released teasers only represent about half of the Battleworld landscape, as revealed by Marvel. Multiple announcements are planned over the next two weeks for more stories tying in to "Secret Wars."

"Once you hit 'Secret Wars' #1, there's no Marvel Universe, there's no Ultimate Universe," Brevoort said. "It's all Battleworld." "None of these stories are What Ifs are alternate reality stories," Alonso added. "And they will have legs. They will impart new things into the Marvel Universe going forward."

Today's news raises plenty of more questions, including what Marvel's publishing line will look like as a whole during the course of "Secret Wars" -- and what shape the Marvel Universe will be in after the event. CBR's full coverage of the presentation follows, and check back soon for more from the event.


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=58625

CyberCubed
01-20-2015, 04:46 PM
So its happening, even the Ultimate universe is too old now they have to do another full reboot.

Between DC's New 52, the Star Wars continuity being restarted at Marvel with Dark Horse continuity being "non-canon", and now Marvel its all happening.

Makes you wonder if comics as a whole are a dying medium and should be put out to pasture.

Amaranthus
01-21-2015, 02:02 PM
I'm not sure what to think about this.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-21-2015, 02:19 PM
This is why I don't read comics except for TMNT ever. (Well, and Skullkickers.)

Mainstream comics, be it DC or Marvel, are not a satisfactory medium for storytelling. Actions have no permanent consequences; death, identity revelations, love relationships... none of it is permanent. A new writer comes on board, and previous editorial directions are ignored. If you like a series or a writer, just wait; it will change. And if you don't like a series or a writer, just wait; it, too, will change.

I love Batman and all of his supporting characters, Iron Man, Captain America, Flash, Green Arrow, but I don't read the comics. To me, they are nothing but source material from which to create amazing television shows, cartoons, and movies. Because there, actions have consequences and I don't have to worry about the next six months being nothing but build-up to the next big crossover event which is there only to boost lagging sales and B and C-list characters.

Oh, and that's another thing: far too many comic stories rely on characters outside that particular series. If I'm a Batman fan, I may not be interested in Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern, et al. I understand the occasional crossover, but mainstream comics seem to do them to death.

For examples (all from Batman, the only comic series I keep tabs on but don't read):


Court of Owls/Night of Owls: the main storyline is great, but the majority of the crossover issues (Robin, Batgirl, Red Hood, etc) were forgettable
Death of the Family: ditto
Zero Year: again, ditto
Eternal: dragging on way too long, now existing only to drag out a story to 52+ issues


But hey, for those of you who disagree and like mainstream comics, more power to you. Glad you can enjoy them!

CyberCubed
01-21-2015, 02:48 PM
The rule of reading mainstream comics is to make your own "canon." You decide which storylines and characters "count" and which don't.

You can't follow continuity of everything anyway and everything is retconned or done away with every 10 years anyway. Make your own personal canon, that way you can pick and choose which stories count in your personal universe.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
01-21-2015, 02:56 PM
I understand the "headcanon" thing... heck, a lot of us do that with TMNT (Image Volume 3)!

But I think it's still disingenuous to readers to flood the market with a lot of stuff that goes nowhere or cancels out pre-existing stories. Whereas movies, television, and novels, which are more limited by the amount of work involved, are much more deliberate in crafting an ongoing continuing story. It takes longer to do things, but those things have weight.

Of course, not collecting comics does have its disadvantages, too; for example, Jason Todd is probably my favorite Batman character, but he's still only appeared in one DC film so far: Under the Red Hood. Never shown in the Batman TAS cartoon, nor any of the live-action films. The odds of me seeing a dynamite "Under the Hood" movie in theaters? Slim.

The rule of reading mainstream comics is to make your own "canon." You decide which storylines and characters "count" and which don't.

You can't follow continuity of everything anyway and everything is retconned or done away with every 10 years anyway. Make your own personal canon, that way you can pick and choose which stories count in your personal universe.

CyberCubed
01-21-2015, 03:18 PM
DC/Marvel comics should follow their cartoon/movie counterparts where a universe goes on for a few years and has a concrete ending, and then a new series comes along as a reboot.

For example we don't have one continuous Batman show going on since the 30's. No, there are different shows "60's Batman," B:TAS, The Batman, etc. and they all end. Then a new series comes along as a reboot.

Comics are intended to go on forever but after a decade writers and the fanbase changes so they should just end the series and do a reboot

snake
01-21-2015, 03:33 PM
Looks like the house of ideas is out of ideas.

Galactus
01-21-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm not sure why they bothered with an announcement. We already knew that two were merging together as well as with a bunch of other alternate earths to create the new Battleworld.

We know they'll all become un-merged at the end of Secret Wars since we know of at least one title confirmed post Secret Wars that takes place an alternate universe and several more 616 based books that will carry on their story lines from before the event.

At most I can see some elements of the other universes particularly the Ultimate Universe permanently merging with the main Marvel Universe. I think we can safely assume Miles Morales' history will be transferred to the regular Marvel U.

BabyTurtles
01-21-2015, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure why they bothered with an announcement. We already knew that two were merging together as well as with a bunch of other alternate earths to create the new Battleworld.

We know they'll all become un-merged at the end of Secret Wars since we know of at least one title confirmed post Secret Wars that takes place an alternate universe and several more 616 based books that will carry on their story lines from before the event.

At most I can see some elements of the other universes particularly the Ultimate Universe permanently merging with the main Marvel Universe. I think we can safely assume Miles Morales' history will be transferred to the regular Marvel U.

Yay! ....though I kinda liked him being THE Spiderman of his universe....(then again Peter Parker came back anyway so I guess that doesn't matter now)

Spike Spiegel
02-02-2015, 10:42 PM
This is why I don't read comics except for TMNT ever. (Well, and Skullkickers.)

Mainstream comics, be it DC or Marvel, are not a satisfactory medium for storytelling. Actions have no permanent consequences; death, identity revelations, love relationships... none of it is permanent. A new writer comes on board, and previous editorial directions are ignored. If you like a series or a writer, just wait; it will change. And if you don't like a series or a writer, just wait; it, too, will change.



I haven't bought a monthly superhero comic in years, with the exception of the recent She-Hulk series. And that's going to cancelled soon...

I also recently started picking up the new Superman run, but I'll drop it whenever John Romita Jr. leaves (his storytelling and world-building is very subtle).

What about indie stuff? Even TMNT sort of counts as a superhero book. Like what often happens with people's perception of animation, I wish the general public saw comics as a medium rather than as a genre. The reason these reboots happen is because they are a surefire way to generate money from a dwindling hardcore fanbase.

I love comics--I even have a webcomic that I write/pencil/letter/color--but the business end of it sickens me sometimes.

ZariusTwo
03-19-2015, 03:36 PM
There's a whole lot of secrecy with Marvel's upcoming event, SECRET WARS. Fans know what the titles are, for the most part, but where does everything fit in? Some of Marvel's greatest stories are coming to SECRET WARS and in some ways, being re-imagined, but what does that mean for the Marvel universe as a whole? In an interview with Comicbook.com, Marvel's SVP of Sales & Marketing, David Gabriel, talked about some of the inner-workings of the upcoming event SECRET WARS.

Gabriel tells readers to compare SECRET WARS to what Age of Apocalypse did, during the 90s. All of the X-Titles didn't exist during that time period and only AoA books were around. This is obviously going to be on a much grander scale though and Gabriel says that this will affect the Marvel universe in some shocking ways.

Gabriel went on to break down each of the banners for SECRET WARS. In a nutshell, books under LAST DAYS are the past. LAST DAYS will let creators bring the stories they're telling to a conclusion prior to the Marvel universe being destroyed. BATTLEWORLD titles are the present. These will be like regular, monthly titles and are the core continuity. WARZONES series are the future. These stories will lay down the foundation for the new Marvel universe.

These books are called "series" over "titles" because they will exist as long as Battleworld exists. They're not limited to the story as much as they are limited to the world these stories take place in. However, while the 616 is ending, they want to take the time to announce all of their May and June books before even talking about what is coming next.

Finally, here is the full list of books for LAST DAYS, where creators get a chance to finish their stories before SECRET WARS:

All-New Captain America
All-New Ghost Rider
All-New X-Men
Amazing Spider-Man
Amazing X-Men
Angela: Asgard’s Assassin
Avengers
Avengers World
Captain Marvel
Cyclops
Deadpool
Elektra
Fantastic Four
Guardians 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy
Hulk
Inhuman
Iron Fist: The Living Weapon
Legendary Star-Lord
Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man
New Avengers
Nightcrawler
Nova
Rocket Raccoon
Secret Avengers
Spider-Man & The X-Men
Spider-Man 2099
Storm
Superior Iron Man
Thor
Uncanny X-Men
Wolverines
X-Men

http://www.comicvine.com/secret-wars/4045-58266/forums/marvel-clarifies-a-few-things-when-it-comes-to-sec-1654836/#33

CyberCubed
03-19-2015, 03:51 PM
So Marvel is basically doing the same thing DC did with the New 52? Ending all current series and doing a clean slate for a new continuity/universe, only keeping some elements from past series around as canon?

ZariusTwo
03-19-2015, 04:04 PM
Seems so. I read this is a direct mandate from Disney to synch it all up with the MCU

snake
03-19-2015, 04:10 PM
Seems so. I read this is a direct mandate from Disney to synch it all up with the MCU

F*ck that. A plain reboot would be fine I guess, but connecting it to the MCU? No.

ZariusTwo
03-21-2015, 02:59 PM
Civil War is being brought back for this too, in a scenario where the war never ended even after the registration act came and went.

MsMarvelDuckie
03-22-2015, 03:17 AM
That is the most depressing news since OMD.... I think I'm done with Marvel now- unless they can REALLY convince me it's worthwhile again, which I doubt. Guess I'll just be sticking with TMNT until then.

ZariusTwo
03-25-2015, 03:29 PM
Spider-Island is being revisited, the same book will also feature a back-up story featuring the MC2 universe coping with the events of Battleworld and the aftermath of Spider-Verse, with Mayday in her new role as Spider-Woman grieving her father's recent death and adjusting to Uncle Ben being a part of her family.

Also, on Free Comic Book Day, there will be a taster issue for "All-Different Avengers" which will feature the line-up for the team in the new Marvel Universe. Confirmed so far are Kamala Khan, She-Thor, Vision, and Kid Nova.

BabyTurtles
03-25-2015, 03:48 PM
Spider-Island is being revisited, the same book will also feature a back-up story featuring the MC2 universe coping with the events of Battleworld and the aftermath of Spider-Verse, with Mayday in her new role as Spider-Woman grieving her father's recent death and adjusting to Uncle Ben being a part of her family.

Also, on Free Comic Book Day, there will be a taster issue for "All-Different Avengers" which will feature the line-up for the team in the new Marvel Universe. Confirmed so far are Kamala Khan, She-Thor, Vision, and Kid Nova.

I saw that!!

http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/400/0/1/All-New-All-Different-Avengers-Assemble-2-24e23.jpg

I'm hoping the one in the middle is Miles.....(please be Miles....) though he looks like he's wearing pants...:cry:

I love Kamala and like Nova so if Miles is on the team I will totally be checking this comic out! *___*

Whatswiththeheadbands?
03-25-2015, 05:50 PM
(initiating Old Man Voice)

Back in my day, we had one Marvel universe, and one DC Universe in comics.

What went wrong?

snake
03-25-2015, 07:36 PM
(initiating Old Man Voice)

Back in my day, we had one Marvel universe, and one DC Universe in comics.

What went wrong?

Not true. Multiverses have existed since "The Flash Of Two Worlds".

BabyTurtles
03-26-2015, 12:07 AM
so they revealed the new Avengers team.

it's probably gonna be revealed tomorrow to everyone but here it is early

SPOILER~ of picture with whole team~
http://i.imgur.com/gbROBTu.jpg

how I feel:
https://secure.static.tumblr.com/ebbdd9d784cc9a3033f123a1d96ba398/saweo66/Paknigep3/tumblr_static_ccbkg1a6ndsgo8ow44so4gcck_640_v2.gif

aaaah yea got my 2 favorite characters I'm good!

ZariusTwo
03-26-2015, 10:12 AM
Now confirmed by Marvel.

Wonder if that means Peter will retire after Renew Your Vows?

MsMarvelDuckie
03-26-2015, 02:27 PM
If he does, then so will I. NOT. A. FAN. OF THIS.

snake
03-26-2015, 03:31 PM
I'd love for Peter to get a happy ending, where he ties up loose ends and reveals himself to all of his close friends and family. He doesn't get attacked any more or anything, he just has a happy ending while being married to MJ.

He gives the spiderman mantle to someone new, who isn't black peter.

ZariusTwo
03-26-2015, 03:39 PM
If he does, then so will I. NOT. A. FAN. OF THIS.

I thought you were already done with Spider-Man comics anyway?

Superior Spider-Man captured lightning in a bottle and proved you could go a year and a stretch without Peter as the core character and it works. Miles likewise kept the Ultimate Universe afloat and proved you can "retire" even a younger Peter and let Miles do his thing and it has resulted in massive cross-promotional appeal and a sizeable following.

I grew up on Ben Reily, Kane, and Mayday, I'm used to Spidey being better utilized as a legacy character than as the main attraction. This I don't mind. At all. I would rather have Peter finally grow and settle with MJ and their kid and be a part-timer and a mentor figure than the drained, un-inspirational man-child he has been for almost a decade now. If Marvel are not interested in telling that many new stories with Peter, then it's all the best they wait until they feel it is the right opportunity to again do so and give us something different.

BabyTurtles
03-26-2015, 06:18 PM
the team looks so interesting!

I mean 4 adults and 3 teens! It's gonna be awesome!

also I love Kamala, Miles, and Sam so bring it on!!

Don't know much about the new Thor, but I like her outfit so there's that XD

TurtleTitan97
03-26-2015, 06:26 PM
also I love Kamala, Miles, and Sam so bring it on!!


That makes one of us.

IDK if it's just me, but I REALLY dislike Sam as Nova. I think it's mostly because of how I first saw him in the "Ultimate Spider-Man" show, and that pretty much ruined the character for me.

I do like Richard Rider though. He was awesome.

BabyTurtles
03-26-2015, 08:10 PM
That makes one of us.

IDK if it's just me, but I REALLY dislike Sam as Nova. I think it's mostly because of how I first saw him in the "Ultimate Spider-Man" show, and that pretty much ruined the character for me.

I do like Richard Rider though. He was awesome.

oh I hate him in Ultimate Spiderman too.

but then I found his comic and it was such an improvement I ended up liking him XD

ZariusTwo
03-27-2015, 06:34 PM
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/axel-in-charge-shaping-the-all-new-all-different-avengers-uncanny-inhumans

Alonzo is indicating the Spidey from Avengers may not be Miles. Oh he's such a card.:D

BabyTurtles
03-27-2015, 07:22 PM
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/axel-in-charge-shaping-the-all-new-all-different-avengers-uncanny-inhumans

Alonzo is indicating the Spidey from Avengers may not be Miles. Oh he's such a card.:D

http://f5.s.qip.ru/Vmk2GqV8.gif

That better be Miles.

MsMarvelDuckie
04-03-2015, 10:36 PM
I thought you were already done with Spider-Man comics anyway?

Superior Spider-Man captured lightning in a bottle and proved you could go a year and a stretch without Peter as the core character and it works. Miles likewise kept the Ultimate Universe afloat and proved you can "retire" even a younger Peter and let Miles do his thing and it has resulted in massive cross-promotional appeal and a sizeable following.

I grew up on Ben Reily, Kane, and Mayday, I'm used to Spidey being better utilized as a legacy character than as the main attraction. This I don't mind. At all. I would rather have Peter finally grow and settle with MJ and their kid and be a part-timer and a mentor figure than the drained, un-inspirational man-child he has been for almost a decade now. If Marvel are not interested in telling that many new stories with Peter, then it's all the best they wait until they feel it is the right opportunity to again do so and give us something different.


Not completely done, just mostly tired of all the crap they've done to him. I gave the BND thing a shot for over a year, and it pissed me off when they basically threw his relationship with M-J under the bus with OMIT. Spider-Ock is another bad direction I don't care for, though I honestly haven't actually read anything newer than the end of the Spider-Island arc. But enough is enough, already.

I started reading the Spidey books for PETER, not Miles, or Ock in Pete's body, or Spider-Gwen, or- well, any of that stuff. Silk, Iron Spider, "new" Venom, "new" Spider-Girl/Woman- every decision they have made since the end of OMD has made me less and less interested in the comic, because it's not about Peter anymore, it's about...all these OTHER people in the Spidey SUIT. Seriously, they could give it to Deadpool at this point, and who would know the difference? Actually, that might make me want to read it again, since Deadpool is a character I at least like and care about. I couldn't give two craps about any of those others. It just doesn't FEEL like Spider-Man anymore, at this point. So if that's what they're going forward with, then I really AM done. Might still pick up Deadpool or the Avengers, but I'll just pretend the new stuff doesn't exist with Spidey.

Shred Head
04-03-2015, 11:05 PM
Seriously, they could give it to Deadpool at this point, and who would know the difference? Actually, that might make me want to read it again, since Deadpool is a character I at least like and care about.

Funny thing there was a brief point cant remember what story line it was but Deadpool did become Spider-Man and wore the suit.

ZariusTwo
04-04-2015, 02:52 AM
It just doesn't FEEL like Spider-Man anymore.

I feel you there. As a matter of fact, someone wrote in to this month's issue of ASM asking when Slott will be replaced as history would not be kind to his era. Nick Lowe (the editor)'s exact words were "you have my permission to stop reading" and then revealed he had no intentions of throwing Slott off the book, then followed that up with "provided we're still publishing Spider-Man after Secret Wars"

I have some theories on what may happen to the books after SW. Possibly that Slott will maintain control of the ASM title (there's just way too much he's set up in it to suddenly be abandoned), but it will be set in it's own continuity while the "mainstream" Peter will be the one from Renew Your Vows who is married, but the monkeys paw is he retires for good and mentors Miles. It'd make the most sense since Marvel are on another "legacy" kick at the moment.

ZariusTwo
04-22-2015, 04:39 PM
Alonzo chats about Secret Wars

http://www.newsarama.com/24245-axel-alonso-secret-wars-interview.html

Interestingly, although Alonso says that he doesn't believe that the Marvel Universe, in his words, are "broken," does say that Secret Wars will introduce new characters "and, in certain cases replacing, out of necessity, some pieces that were on the board."

When asked who the "central" characters of Secret Wars would be, Alonso says that the Ultimate Spider-Man Miles Morales and Thor would be "very important" to the summer event.

ZariusTwo
04-24-2015, 12:22 PM
http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/image_17-600x450.jpg

Well, they emphasised that A-Force will be a leading team book for the new Marvel Universe after Secret Wars. That the Squadron Sinister is the new Squadron Supreme team for the Marvel Universe. Future Imperfect characters will become players, as well as those from 2099, and certain 1892 characters as well. Other books that will play a part in the new Marvel Universe include AVX, Weirdworld and the monster team, the Howling Commandoes.

And next week, we will all get Marvel’s first proper post-Secret Wars announcement, entitled “8 Months Later”…

Marvel have sold Secret Wars as being the end. This is where they start selling it as being the beginning.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/04/24/marvel-tells-retailers-what-is-happening-after-secret-wars-at-c2e2/

MsMarvelDuckie
05-04-2015, 02:16 AM
I mean 4 adults and 3 teens! It's gonna be awesome!

also I love Kamala, Miles, and Sam so bring it on!!



Um, how about- no. Adding teens to a team of adult heroes is NOT a good idea. Especially THAT many of them. They don't take orders well, for one thing, nor do they often think before they act. Recipe for disaster.

As for Kamala- I was at my library this weekend for FCBD, and lo and behold they had the vol. 1 TPB for the "new" Ms. Marvel. I read it in about an hour- all five issues I think it was. Hated it. The characters were the most stereotypical racial tropes I've EVER seen in a comic book! Zoe, the jock (can't remember his name, so I'll just call him Flash Thompson redux), Kamala herself and her friend "Kiki" (though I gather she doesn't like that particular nickname, but I can't even remember her real one) and her father, mother, and brother ALL being the "typical" Muslim family- with "typical" roles. Ugh.

I was unimpressed from page one, but kept HOPING it would get better. No such luck. By the end, I wanted to take back that last hour or so I'd been reading it. Also, her powers- kind of suck. She's like the lost love-child of Mystique and Mr. Fantastic, with some Giant-Man thrown in. Really lame and boring, unimaginative, and- I just couldn't see the appeal of the book at all. On top of it all, they made her a HUGE geek-trope, too. Racial stereotyped mega-geek hero -teen? Please, gods, kill this now. And the "source/cause" of her powers was never even explained. The mist didn't seem to affect anyone ELSE, so why should it do that to her? Or was it because she drank alcohol? (Which she spit out anyway, so it shouldn't even factor in....) or made a wish? Whatever, it made NO sense. So many bad ideas, I couldn't help but want to shoot the writer.

If this is the direction Marvel is going now, I pity the fans.....

ZariusTwo
05-04-2015, 05:45 AM
I think people's standards for reading comic books have fallen significantly over the years. I'm like this with Spider-Gwen. On an objective level, It's absolute garbage yet everyone insists it's awesome, I think they're more in love with Emma Stone and the premise more than the content. Ms. Marvel I agree with you on, even if I sort of like Kamala. The comic is one big advert for every conceivable trope on Tumblr. Every page is designed to trigger blogs, avatars, and sigs


Oh, and that Avengers issue was an absolute stinker. A shame too, as Waid's great on Daredevil, but if this is what the post-Hickman era is like, I'm not interested.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-04-2015, 09:59 AM
I also read the FCBD Marvel Secret Wars Preview issue, and found it was just- a mess. None of the story teasers made me want to read any of those books, except for MAYBE the Punisher/Strange one at the beginning, and the one with the X Men andAvengers all introing themselves, and Deadpool does, but no one knows who he is.

CyberCubed
05-04-2015, 04:53 PM
Its rather obvious these reboots are aimed at new younger fans, mostly kids and teenagers who are getting into Marvel for the first time because of the movies. Older fans from the 90's and early 2000's are expected to move on from comics.

I wonder if fans back in the 60's and 70's felt the same way when the 80's era comics came out.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-04-2015, 05:02 PM
Yeah but the funny thing is, with today's comic prices, most kids don't have the money to spend on em, or they would rather spend it on movies or video games anyway. They are barking up the wrong tree by shunting loyal older fans aside.

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 05:16 PM
Really? You think so?
Because I don't, and I say that as a Marvel fan a bit older than both you and Cyber.

I really like Kamala, but then...I've always been a fan of "Slice of Life" stories.
Give me the X-Men playing touch-no powers-football on the front law of the Xavier Institute over building punching fight action any day. Hell, the first few arcs of Wolverine and the X-men were fantastic. Love love love Fraction's run on Hawkeye, and the now cancelled new run on She-Hulk. Oooh, and Uncanny X-Force, though I'm a bit behind on that one.

Started with that title after their "Sex and Violence" miniseries. Deadpool feeding Angel slices of his flesh to keep him alive after their run in with Famine? That's a mental image that'll linger...

Anyhow, catering to fossils like us isn't going to get Marvel the money it needs to keep its print run in the black.

Comics fans are the biggest babies. Just say you don't like a thing, then don't buy a thing, and leave it at that. There's no need for personal attacks on the creators, even in hyperbole.

I mean....seriously Duckie? Wanting to shoot the author of Ms Marvel. She's actually a personal friend of mine. Feel bad about your word choice.

FlawedCoil82
05-04-2015, 05:39 PM
Its rather obvious these reboots are aimed at new younger fans, mostly kids and teenagers who are getting into Marvel for the first time because of the movies. Older fans from the 90's and early 2000's are expected to move on from comics.

I disagree....I am 33 years old and this is the first time since about 1999 that I am legitimately excited about Marvel Comics again. Particularly their "X-Men '92" title, which (if they don't ruin the team or change their costumes again) would be the dream X-Men title I have been begging them to bring back for over the past 16 years or so. In fact, since they are finally going to give me back the team I loved, I am now interested in several other titles that I would like to read on the side. When the original "Age Of Apocalypse" storyline came out, I was so bitter and disgusted that they took away my beloved 90's team that I pretty much skipped reading the entire saga. Now, as long as I can keep getting all new, original stories featuring the 90's X-Men as the "main course", I am willing to give other titles ("appetizers") a chance on the side.

In addition to "X-Men '92", I also have my eyes set on "Age Of Apocalypse", "X-Tinction Agenda", "A-Force", "Years Of Future Past" and "Inferno". But if Marvel tries to destroy the 90's X-Men again (like they did in their absurd "X-Men Forever" title a few years back) then my Marvel support will once again disappear. What worries me is that Chris Sims is known for not liking many of the 90's uniforms and if he tries to change them (or make a mockery of that version of the team), then that will be the end of my interest in any of the new Marvel Secret Wars books. Keeping the 90's X-Men team around in their flawless/familiar 90's uniforms is key if Marvel wants any of my money for that or any other titles.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-04-2015, 05:59 PM
Sh** like this makes me feel a little better that TMNT never belonged to one of the big two comic companies.

It feels really good knowing that the biggest problems of TMNT comics can be counted on one hand:

#1. The sh***y "Guest Era" of Mirage Volume 1
#2. Volume 4 never being finished
#3. Tales Volume 2 never finishing any of the good stories
#4. Steven Murphy's hot and bothered environmental lovefest
#5. Raphael never progressing past "Wolverine in a half-shell" (unless you count Image TMNT, which I do)

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 06:05 PM
Those are your biggest TMNT problems?
Huh. Interesting. They wouldn't be mine.

One of the things that I think Marvel has always excelled at, over say DC, is that for the most part their characters are people...and not say iconic buildings.
There's more freedom with people. I loved the idea of the Ultimate Universe, because one solid universe is too unwieldy and I think that level of intersection is too stifling to creativity.

I don't want Batman to always be Bruce Wayne. Because Bruce? Is a dude. And people die eventually. Green Lantern shouldn't just be Hal Jordan.
There's so many awesome stories that can/should be told...and with different universes that opens up infinite possibilities.

Are they all going to be awesome stories? No, of course not. But they're going to be different, and there's excitement to be found in the gamble. If all we got was the same old same old...well, that's great if you like stagnation.

But with this? Where they're merging the universes? It makes me a little sad. Here's hoping some good stories will come from it to make it worth the effort.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-04-2015, 06:05 PM
Those are your biggest TMNT problems?
Huh. Interesting. They wouldn't be mine.

TMNT comics. Trust me, if it were the franchise as a whole, the list would indeed be quite different. :twink:

FlawedCoil82
05-04-2015, 07:47 PM
I don't want Batman to always be Bruce Wayne. Because Bruce? Is a dude. And people die eventually. Green Lantern shouldn't just be Hal Jordan.
There's so many awesome stories that can/should be told...and with different universes that opens up infinite possibilities.

Are they all going to be awesome stories? No, of course not. But they're going to be different, and there's excitement to be found in the gamble. If all we got was the same old same old...well, that's great if you like stagnation.

See, Ive never been able to wrap my brain around this mindset. When I fall in love with a franchise, it is because I love it EXACTLY the way it is at that moment when it caught my interest. Small changes over time are fine, but I MUST have that constant familiarity and connection to it in order to stay a fan. I don't want "realism" from comic characters who are bound to the same depressing facts of life that plague reality (such as groing old and dying). I want fantastic escapes from reality.

I would NEVER wish to fall in love with a girl and then hope that she would entirely change from being who she was when I first fell in love with her. I hold any franchise I love to that same belief. You seem to love the CONCEPT of Batman but not Bruce Wayne as Batman. I don't love the concept of the X-Men or TMNT. I love the exact 90's version of the X-Men or the exact version of TMNT. Replace the turtles with 4 new animals (even if they share the same traits as the turtles), or have new mutants replace the X-Men team with new characters or costumes and I lose all interest, despite the fact the new team may share the same mission that the previous version had. It doesn't matter. If they are not the same characters or do not look like the same characters I fell in love with, then I could not care less about their story. I fall in love with a visual franchise (such as comics) when it is "perfect" in my eyes. Once it is to that level, drastic visual or character changes can ONLY ruin it or take it down.

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 07:55 PM
See to me, that mindset sounds so sad. because the things I love I love because they are dynamic, not because they are forever trapped in amber. If I want to read Eastman and Laird's take on the turtles I go to my longboxes. They're not going anywhere. the last thing I want is every turtle story to be city at war or the river.

The last thing I want is for every x-men story to be like the Dark Phoenix saga. I'm sick of Scott and Logan fighting for Jean's affections.

I love characters sure, but I'm much more interested in the world that they all live in and I would much rather play with that world then keep it and the characters who live in it mint on card.

What I find funny is that you seem to believe that I don't love Bruce Wayne because I would be interested in seeing someone else play Batman. Why can't the both happen. Why do we have to limit our story to that one person? And...who exactly is going to go around burning the previous 40 some odd years of comics to completely wipe Bruce Wayne from popular culture. No one, that's who. Because people are always going to want to write stories about Bruce Wayne as Batman. There's always new ways to talk about a crazy guy with HUGE daddy shaped abandonment issues.

This is why I have usually enjoyed the Marvel Universe over the DC's, because I prefer stories about people living in a world then watching buildings fight each other over and over and over again. That just doesn't interest me in the slightest. Superman. Batman. Sometimes Wonder Woman...they're buildings, and are rarely characters because no one will let them grow and change. They're forever stuck exactly where they are, not unlike Bart Simpson.

I didn't like Man of Steel, but it least it DID something with Superman. It took a chance, granted that chance didn't really pay out, depending on who you talk to...but at least they tried.

I'm not trying to take 9os X Men away from you, though having re-read them recently I can't say as though there's much left in there for me but nostalgia. I was in Jr High and Highschool during the 90s...and if there's one place I'd never want to go back to...it's Jr High and Highschool.

If you want to stay forever locked in your glory days of yesteryear, more power to you....but...damn is that so not for me. I'm no where even near the person I was then, and that's far from a bad thing.

Brodie
05-04-2015, 08:33 PM
Holy ****, FlawedCoil, your view sounds boring as all get out.

If it were up to you, we'd never get characters like Terry McGuinness, or Tim Drake. Venom would never exist. By that accord, your version of the Flash still wears a silver plate on his head.

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 08:41 PM
Imagine if Paul Dini had that mindset. We'd never have gotten Harley Quinn or Renee Montoya.

And while I believe Frank Miller is kind of stuck in his Highschool Glory Days, if he had this conservator mentality we'd never have gotten The Dark Night. Same kind of goes for Tim Burton too, actually. Stuck in Glory Day Mode, but at least he gave us the first Batman movie before his record started to skip.

Cure
05-04-2015, 08:46 PM
I would NEVER wish to fall in love with a girl and then hope that she would entirely change from being who she was when I first fell in love with her. I hold any franchise I love to that same belief.

Franchises aren't people, yo. They're not gonna get their feelings hurt.

Brodie
05-04-2015, 09:00 PM
Imagine if Paul Dini had that mindset. We'd never have gotten Harley Quinn or Renee Montoya.

And while I believe Frank Miller is kind of stuck in his Highschool Glory Days, if he had this conservator mentality we'd never have gotten The Dark Night. Same kind of goes for Tim Burton too, actually. Stuck in Glory Day Mode, but at least he gave us the first Batman movie before his record started to skip.


Its mind boggling that he addresses the 90's X-Men, when that's....which numerical iteration of that team? The Jim Lee/Claremont X-Men was a reboot/relaunch! The thing he doesn't like or want.....whaaaaaaaaaaat?

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 09:11 PM
Its mind boggling that he addresses the 90's X-Men, when that's....which numerical iteration of that team? The Jim Lee/Claremont X-Men was a reboot/relaunch! The thing he doesn't like or want.....whaaaaaaaaaaat?

At least the third, at very least. And that's not counting shifts to/from Avengers, X-Factor, X-Force, etc.

And yeah...I didn't want to TOUCH on the sheer levels of objectification that went along with comparing a future love with a franchise. Because...damn. Just damn.

FlawedCoil82
05-04-2015, 10:15 PM
All I am saying is if I am not getting the version I loved REPLACED with something else, then I can live with it. I am not a big Batman fan, but I can assure you that I would find it very depressing and feel betrayed in a "bait and switch" to see any one but Bruce Wayne be Batman, unless they kept Bruce around permanently and kept other Batman interpretations in their own titles. When they would try to force someone replacing Bruce as Batman, that is where I would have a big problem. I would be interested in seeing Bruce be Batman. Yet I would have zero interest in seeing anyone else be "Batman". They would only be imposters.

As far as the 90's X-Men go, I want NEW stories featuring that team. There are very few comics I enjoy enough to read over and over. When I look at them now, it is strictly to admire the art work. That is why I am willing to give AOA a chance because this time it will not be replacing the version of the team I love. But yes, I am a very firm believer that you should not try to fix what is not broken. In my opinion this "Secret Wars" is Marvel's way of trying to please everybody, and that is what they shoulda done all along so those of us who only care about certain versions were not shut out or forced to accept changes that werent wanted or needed.

The X-Men never appealed to me before in the 80's until I saw how magnificent they looked in the 90s with #1. They suddenly "clicked" with me when I saw them and thats when I became obsessed with their look and wanted to read and learn everything about them until Marvel allowed others to come in and corrupt them. I feel there are tons of untold stories and potential for the 90s X-Men team that was robbed from them before. After all these years, seeing that team return in this title will be like seeing a dear friend return from the dead. "X-Men '92" will give me my definitive version of the team while all the other titles will appeal to others. I feel Secret Wars is the best case scenario for the comics, as Marvel has had nothing to offer me of interest over the past decade.

CyberCubed
05-04-2015, 10:26 PM
Isn't that just nostalgia though? Of course everyone is going to favor whichever version they "grew up with" or became a really big fan of. You can say that for any series that went through multiple series or reboots.

Jester
05-04-2015, 10:27 PM
Yeah, that'd be like constant grumbling about Turtle nostrils or Russian Rocksteadys......wait.

CyberCubed
05-04-2015, 10:46 PM
Those are designs, that's not the same.

Also is Tony Stark even Iron Man in this new series? I read the free comic book day issue and I can't tell if this is a "new" Iron Man or if its still Tony.

Jester
05-04-2015, 10:48 PM
Those are designs, that's not the same.
Rocksteady being Russian is a design element? News to me....

plastroncafe
05-04-2015, 11:06 PM
There's no delusion like entitled fanboy delusion.

If only we could some how...transform the strength of that delusion into something that could operate a turbine.
Think of the power we could generate! Wind, Solar, and Geothermal power production would pale by comparison.

BabyTurtles
05-05-2015, 01:12 AM
Um, how about- no. Adding teens to a team of adult heroes is NOT a good idea. Especially THAT many of them. They don't take orders well, for one thing, nor do they often think before they act. Recipe for disaster.

As for Kamala- I was at my library this weekend for FCBD, and lo and behold they had the vol. 1 TPB for the "new" Ms. Marvel. I read it in about an hour- all five issues I think it was. Hated it. The characters were the most stereotypical racial tropes I've EVER seen in a comic book! Zoe, the jock (can't remember his name, so I'll just call him Flash Thompson redux), Kamala herself and her friend "Kiki" (though I gather she doesn't like that particular nickname, but I can't even remember her real one) and her father, mother, and brother ALL being the "typical" Muslim family- with "typical" roles. Ugh.

I was unimpressed from page one, but kept HOPING it would get better. No such luck. By the end, I wanted to take back that last hour or so I'd been reading it. Also, her powers- kind of suck. She's like the lost love-child of Mystique and Mr. Fantastic, with some Giant-Man thrown in. Really lame and boring, unimaginative, and- I just couldn't see the appeal of the book at all. On top of it all, they made her a HUGE geek-trope, too. Racial stereotyped mega-geek hero -teen? Please, gods, kill this now. And the "source/cause" of her powers was never even explained. The mist didn't seem to affect anyone ELSE, so why should it do that to her? Or was it because she drank alcohol? (Which she spit out anyway, so it shouldn't even factor in....) or made a wish? Whatever, it made NO sense. So many bad ideas, I couldn't help but want to shoot the writer.

If this is the direction Marvel is going now, I pity the fans.....

Racial stereotyped? How is Kamala's family racially stereotyped? Cause she has strict parents that are religious??(they do exist, my parents are religious and watched what I did)

how do you want her family to act like? How would you prefer Kamala act like?

Have you ever met a Muslim family before? (no seriously have you? maybe I'm ignorant)

Ya know maybe I'm young but Kamala is someone I can relate too.....you can have your old characters I'll take my new ones.

also she's an inhuman.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-05-2015, 01:53 AM
Really? You think so?
Because I don't, and I say that as a Marvel fan a bit older than both you and Cyber.

I really like Kamala, but then...I've always been a fan of "Slice of Life" stories.
Give me the X-Men playing touch-no powers-football on the front law of the Xavier Institute over building punching fight action any day.

Anyhow, catering to fossils like us isn't going to get Marvel the money it needs to keep its print run in the black.

Comics fans are the biggest babies. Just say you don't like a thing, then don't buy a thing, and leave it at that. There's no need for personal attacks on the creators, even in hyperbole.

I mean....seriously Duckie? Wanting to shoot the author of Ms Marvel. She's actually a personal friend of mine. Feel bad about your word choice.


If you are, it's probably not by much. Over 40, then? What the heck does that even have to do with it?

Yes, I like "slice of life" stuff too, but THIS- it just felt forced and boring, and very cliché. She's the typical whiney, rebellious teen of a strict religious upbringing (and this isn't just a Muslim thing, but they played that trope HEAVILY) trying to "be her own person" by defying her parents. I saw it coming after the second page, and that's really sad. I couldn't even find anything to like about the characters, as they were all so very one-dimensional that I just didn't care about them at all. Not ONE.

Also, you DO realize I was speaking metaphorically, right? Not that I'd ever actually shoot the writer, but this is one of the worst writing mistakes a person can make, and it was so glaringly obvious it pretty much ruined any possible enjoyment I could've had from seeing a fresh take on a character- not that I wanted one to begin with, but creating a new character for the sake of change and/or diversity is just- cheap. Maybe it's not the writer but the editorial staff's decree, don't know, and don't care. It was just very trite and predictable. And boring. Did I mention boring?


Racial stereotyped? How is Kamala's family racially stereotyped? Cause she has strict parents that are religious??(they do exist, my parents are religious and watched what I did)

how do you want her family to act like? How would you prefer Kamala act like?

Have you ever met a Muslim family before? (no seriously have you? maybe I'm ignorant)

Ya know maybe I'm young but Kamala is someone I can relate too.....you can have your old characters I'll take my new ones.

also she's an inhuman.


Strict religious upbringing isn't JUST restricted to Islamic families, you know. My own grandmother is one of the biggest strict church-goers I've ever known, and would flip out if she knew I was Wiccan. You think Muslims are bad about strict upbringings? Try dealing with die-hard conservative Christians who want to "save your soul" the minute they find out you have a different faith, because they automatically assume it's devil-worship. :trolleye: Trust me, I've heard them all. Or a Mormon boyfriend I had in high school who couldn't even watch R-rated movies, drink caffeine, or.... You get the idea. So Islam doesn't have a monopoly on that sort of thing. But they used just about every Muslim trope in the book with this family- the well-meaning but traditional strict father, the over-protective, guilt-tripper mother ("You've shamed your family!") and the devout "wanna-be holy man" brother. Seriously, it was all very blatant and annoying.

And yes, I've known a few, I even have a few Muslim and Hindu families that are regular customers where I work, and I see how they act. But it's clear the writer just went with the obvious religious stereotypes instead of making them more three-dimensional people with real interests and lives.

How would I want them to act? Can't say, really, but it's not THAT. I was rolling my eyes at her mother's histrionics every other page, her dad being the "this is for your own good" tyrant type, and her friend just being the "perfect Muslim girl" who seems content to go along with tradition, while Kamala herself seems to rebel at every little thing, all while complaining that "no one understands me!" (And either geeking out or advertising her geek status in almost every panel.) She's the minister's daughter in Footloose, but with a different faith. Which I guess makes her friend at the Circle Q Kevin Bacon....

I could maybe relate to her fan-fic writing- that part was kind of neat- but the rest? She just wasn't very likable for me, because it felt too much like she was SUPPOSED to be likable, with no real GOOD reason for her to be. The writer was trying too hard to MAKE the reader like her.

Also- how is she an Inhuman? They were a separate RACE from the humans of earth, and the Tuigan Mist doesn't affect normal humans the same way it does them. It doesn't even affect mutants the same way- it can restore lost powers, but always warps them somehow.

BabyTurtles
05-05-2015, 02:25 AM
If you are, it's probably not by much. Over 40, then? What the heck does that even have to do with it?

Yes, I like "slice of life" stuff too, but THIS- it just felt forced and boring, and very cliché. She's the typical whiney, rebellious teen of a strict religious upbringing (and this isn't just a Muslim thing, but they played that trope HEAVILY) trying to "be her own person" by defying her parents. I saw it coming after the second page, and that's really sad. I couldn't even find anything to like about the characters, as they were all so very one-dimensional that I just didn't care about them at all. Not ONE.

Also, you DO realize I was speaking metaphorically, right? Not that I'd ever actually shoot the writer, but this is one of the worst writing mistakes a person can make, and it was so glaringly obvious it pretty much ruined any possible enjoyment I could've had from seeing a fresh take on a character- not that I wanted one to begin with, but creating a new character for the sake of change and/or diversity is just- cheap. Maybe it's not the writer but the editorial staff's decree, don't know, and don't care. It was just very trite and predictable. And boring. Did I mention boring?





Strict religious upbringing isn't JUST restricted to Islamic families, you know. My own grandmother is one of the biggest strict church-goers I've ever known, and would flip out if she knew I was Wiccan. You think Muslims are bad about strict upbringings? Try dealing with die-hard conservative Christians who want to "save your soul" the minute they find out you have a different faith, because they automatically assume it's devil-worship. :trolleye: Trust me, I've heard them all. Or a Mormon boyfriend I had in high school who couldn't even watch R-rated movies, drink caffeine, or.... You get the idea. So Islam doesn't have a monopoly on that sort of thing. But they used just about every Muslim trope in the book with this family- the well-meaning but traditional strict father, the over-protective, guilt-tripper mother ("You've shamed your family!") and the devout "wanna-be holy man" brother. Seriously, it was all very blatant and annoying.

And yes, I've known a few, I even have a few Muslim and Hindu families that are regular customers where I work, and I see how they act. But it's clear the writer just went with the obvious religious stereotypes instead of making them more three-dimensional people with real interests and lives.

How would I want them to act? Can't say, really, but it's not THAT. I was rolling my eyes at her mother's histrionics every other page, her dad being the "this is for your own good" tyrant type, and her friend just being the "perfect Muslim girl" who seems content to go along with tradition, while Kamala herself seems to rebel at every little thing, all while complaining that "no one understands me!" (And either geeking out or advertising her geek status in almost every panel.) She's the minister's daughter in Footloose, but with a different faith. Which I guess makes her friend at the Circle Q Kevin Bacon....

I could maybe relate to her fan-fic writing- that part was kind of neat- but the rest? She just wasn't very likable for me, because it felt too much like she was SUPPOSED to be likable, with no real GOOD reason for her to be. The writer was trying too hard to MAKE the reader like her.

Also- how is she an Inhuman? They were a separate RACE from the humans of earth, and the Tuigan Mist doesn't affect normal humans the same way it does them. It doesn't even affect mutants the same way- it can restore lost powers, but always warps them somehow.


Well the writer of Kamala Khan is Muslim herself so........:ohwell: I don't know...who better to write Kamala than someone who is Muslim?

She is inhuman, she has inhuman genes that were sparked up with the help of the mist. (pretty sure that's what's up with the mist)

I know she's inhuman though.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-05-2015, 02:41 AM
Which, if you know anything about the Inhumans, makes NO sense at all. They all live on the moon, in their own kingdom. They rarely even have any direct dealings with Earth itself except for Blackbolt and occasionally Medusa and Crystal. They also are NOT Muslim or even Middle-Eastern in ethnicity. They are literally an ALIEN-created race unto themselves. And AFAIK, they don't interbreed with humans, either. So HOW could she even BE one?

And if the Mist is what was floating around the city, then someone has no idea how it actually works. Not sure how she could have any Inhuman genes at all, much less BE one without being among them. Which would negate the entire point of making her Muslim in the first place, because that just means her "family" really ISN'T. I only read the vol. 1 TPB, since it was all they had, but the mist doesn't just give powers to ANYONE- even the Inhumans have to use a special ritual to gain powers- and it doesn't even always work. Some of them end up horribly deformed or have other odd effects, like Lockjaw ending up as a mute dog.

What I'm getting out of it all is that the book fails on several levels. Which is a shame, because there really aren't enough female writers in comics, but if this is the best we can get from the few that are out there- I'm disappointed.

plastroncafe
05-05-2015, 08:47 AM
Did you miss my use of the word " hyperbole"? Because I used it for a reason. "Metaphorically" or not threatening violence against another person because you don't like the comic book they wrote, is juvenile. You should be better than that. Rise to the challenge.

I remember people on this board getting really unhappy when someone jokingly threatened to "bathe the in the unworthy blood" of a creator they didn't like, which is far less likely to happen than someone from Texas just up and shooting another person.

You don't like a thing, congratulations.
A lot of other people do like it.

And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us, and that these new changes would drive us away. They're not driving me away, and if they're driving you away by trying to keep themselves dynamic and tell interesting stories? Good riddance.

ZariusTwo
05-05-2015, 12:46 PM
And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us

The comic industry still caters to dinosaurs. The ones in charge.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-05-2015, 08:18 PM
Did you miss my use of the word " hyperbole"? Because I used it for a reason. "Metaphorically" or not threatening violence against another person because you don't like the comic book they wrote, is juvenile. You should be better than that. Rise to the challenge.

I remember people on this board getting really unhappy when someone jokingly threatened to "bathe the in the unworthy blood" of a creator they didn't like, which is far less likely to happen than someone from Texas just up and shooting another person.

And I mentioned my age because you seem insistent on the idea that the comic industry should be catering to dinosaurs like us, and that these new changes would drive us away. They're not driving me away, and if they're driving you away by trying to keep themselves dynamic and tell interesting stories? Good riddance.


Oh that's real cute- comparing me to a couple of psycho shooters who HAPPEN to be in my state, just because I make ONE comment about a writer's ability. Real classy- do yourself a favor, and take your own advice about being better than that.

As for age and catering to "dinosaurs"- last I checked, we're in the age demographic most likely to have the money to buy comics, not kids who's cash flow is dependent on an allowance that they may or may not get, or on parents being willing to shell out the nearly five bucks an issue for them to read comics in the first place. Or they could read them online, I suppose, but how many kids actually spend their online time by reading comics? Probably not many. Your point is moot.

Now, here are my thoughts on change and comics- I have been a fan of Marvel (officially) since 2001, and even before that, with the 90's cartoons and the occasional comic in high school, even back to the issues that my mom handed down to me as a kid. I like changes. For me, the BEST thing that ever happened to Spider-Man was the new spin on his origin that JMS created, and all the attendant problems and consequences that came with it. Ezekiel and the "Other" was an amazing plot-arc, that took more than a year to culminate, and also brought in some really awesome new villains and complications. Even Aunt May learning his secret was a change that I really loved, without being the "earth-shaking event" that they seem to do all too often now. So was his unmasking, for that matter. (And I really wish they hadn't ret-conned that- there was so much more they could do with it.) Oh yes, and he "died" at least twice in the midst of all that, which while not as shocking as it could have been, was still interesting while it lasted.

I also like other versions of his story, such as the one in 1602, Noir, and Marvel Fairy Tales. These were all different, interesting, and NEW at the time they were published. I also love the MU2, 2099, Marvel Zombies, and particularly Exiles, with all the alternate versions of various characters in that book. Change can be good. WHEN it's done for good reasons and in the interest of storytelling. This- isn't it. Neither is Miles, IMHO. Those are changes done purely for the sake of change itself, and it shows. Badly.

What's driving ME away isn't change- I had plenty of that with Bendis, JMS, Peter David, and Slott, though not all of those were good. What drives ME away is cheap gimmicks, shoddy characterization, and change for change's sake. Which is where they've been going for about the past 5-6 years. And it's depressing, because instead of telling GOOD stories that involve change, they just want to cater to a younger crowd and try to be "cool" to kids who barely even care about the characters they're writing about.

Ours is, sadly enough, the last generation that really had comics as a major form of entertainment, and thus, we are the ones who actually care about what they write for those characters. Younger generations will NOT care about the fifty+ years of history in the MU, nor who is wearing what costume, or what happens to a particular "version" of a character in which universe. If you think the kids of the current generation are going to have any concern over who Ms. Marvel or Spider-Man or anyone else is outside of the movies, then you're mistaken. They're more likely to care about the next Call of Duty release, the next Transformers movie, or the next Twitter feed from Beyoncé or whomever. That's the sad truth about comics today, and it's why I've mostly given up on them.

Side-note: Next time, instead of taking a condescending tone and saying "good riddance", try looking at things from a different point of view. Not everyone LIKES the current changes, and it's not because "grognard dinosaur resistant to change". It's because we CARE about QUALITY.


The comic industry still caters to dinosaurs. The ones in charge.


Indeed. Can't wait for some of those dinosaurs to go extinct, or at least migrate to somewhere far from the comics world. They're not doing anyone any favors.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-05-2015, 08:28 PM
Oh that's real cute- comparing me to a couple of psycho shooters who HAPPEN to be in my state, just because I make ONE comment about a writer's ability. Real classy- do yourself a favor, and take your own advice about being better than that.

As for age and catering to "dinosaurs"- last I checked, we're in the age demographic most likely to have the money to buy comics, not kids who's cash flow is dependent on an allowance that they may or may not get, or on parents being willing to shell out the nearly five bucks an issue for them to read comics in the first place. Or they could read them online, I suppose, but how many kids actually spend their online time by reading comics? Probably not many. Your point is moot.

Now, here are my thoughts on change and comics- I have been a fan of Marvel (officially) since 2001, and even before that, with the 90's cartoons and the occasional comic in high school, even back to the issues that my mom handed down to me as a kid. I like changes. For me, the BEST thing that ever happened to Spider-Man was the new spin on his origin that JMS created, and all the attendant problems and consequences that came with it. Ezekiel and the "Other" was an amazing plot-arc, that took more than a year to culminate, and also brought in some really awesome new villains and complications. Even Aunt May learning his secret was a change that I really loved, without being the "earth-shaking event" that they seem to do all too often now. So was his unmasking, for that matter. (And I really wish they hadn't ret-conned that- there was so much more they could do with it.) Oh yes, and he "died" at least twice in the midst of all that, which while not as shocking as it could have been, was still interesting while it lasted.

I also like other versions of his story, such as the one in 1602, Noir, and Marvel Fairy Tales. These were all different, interesting, and NEW at the time they were published. I also love the MU2, 2099, Marvel Zombies, and particularly Exiles, with all the alternate versions of various characters in that book. Change can be good. WHEN it's done for good reasons and in the interest of storytelling. This- isn't it. Neither is Miles, IMHO. Those are changes done purely for the sake of change itself, and it shows. Badly.

What's driving ME away isn't change- I had plenty of that with Bendis, JMS, Peter David, and Slott, though not all of those were good. What drives ME away is cheap gimmicks, shoddy characterization, and change for change's sake. Which is where they've been going for about the past 5-6 years. And it's depressing, because instead of telling GOOD stories that involve change, they just want to cater to a younger crowd and try to be "cool" to kids who barely even care about the characters they're writing about.

MsMarvelDuckie, not to divert the thread too much, but what comics (if any) do you currently read? Because it does seem like I became interested in comics far too late to read any of the GOOD ones (at least by the big two, with a few exceptions)...

MsMarvelDuckie
05-05-2015, 08:50 PM
Currently, I've been sticking to the TMNT TPB's, and slowly building my collection of Usagi. I also checked out The Walking Dead from my library, but they only have one volume of that, so that's not a "regular" one for me. And I recently bought the Guardians of the Galaxy Cosmic Avengers stand-alone TPB, Spider-Man Big Time TPB, and the Captain America Winter Soldier TPB, but that's about it as far as "current" comic purchases or reads. I have neither the money nor the access to buy them regularly anymore like I did up until about four years ago. Strangely enough, the OMIT and Spider-Island arcs were the LAST ones I actually bought for ASM, and now I limit my comic reading to what I can pick up on FCBD. Since I've been so disappointed in Marvel anyway ever since the OMIT arc (that really just killed Spidey for me) I just save up every few months or so and get one or two of the TMNT volumes. Currently, I'm up to vol. 10, which should tell you how often I can afford them. Funny how health issues of a spouse can take precedence over reading comics.

I USED to read FF, ASM, New Avengers, Deadpool, Daredevil, Red Sonya, Zorro, Lone Ranger, Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Saga adaptation, and occasionally Hellboy, Captain America or Iron Man, if they caught my eye.

ZariusTwo
05-06-2015, 10:39 AM
So I just read Secret Wars#1

Not much happens that we were'nt already clued in about thanks to advance solits and interviews. There's a bit of a fight. 616 Manhattan becomes a life raft. The incursions begin and both the 616 and Ultimate Universes are destroyed. The only "surprising" things were the deaths of 616 Black Widow and Sue, Valiera, and Franklyn Richards. However, each death was handled in that typical "no body" rule that is frequent whenever a writer offs a character,, so chances are they're gonna be fine later. Yawn.

And this is what they lumber us with for most of the year?

MsMarvelDuckie
05-06-2015, 06:23 PM
Why am I not surprised? Sounds like business as usual, and yet ANOTHER WSE. (World-shaking Event)

CyberCubed
05-09-2015, 08:17 PM
Between DC's New 52, Marvel rebooting and killing off its main two universes, and Star Wars rebooting with the expanded universe being considered non-canon....all 3 of the longest running comic book continuities have been restarted very recently.

Technically you can say the same for TMNT since IDW is also a reboot and has nothing to do with Mirage. I'm just glad with TMNT they never have to "erase" a different universe, they just start up a new continuity and go from there.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-10-2015, 01:01 AM
Well, Turtles Forever kind of set the bar for that, by claiming all the others are spun off of the "Prime" universe of Mirage, so they can all be traced back to it somehow. Kind of like how the alternate timelines in Back to the Future came from the one Marty remembered.

CyberCubed
05-10-2015, 02:14 AM
I never understood why DC and Marvel have to "destroy a universe" when they want a reboot. Can't they just make a new series with no ties to the previous, instead of doing this, "The whole universe explodes with every hero jumping into space!" thing they always do?

sdp
05-10-2015, 12:57 PM
I guess fans wouldn't want to check out the new universe? All these reboots are just silly, and wasn't New 52 a disaster? What made Marvel think this was a good idea? The whole merging of universes is downright stupid and confusing. Honestly DC probably did it best when they established Earth-2 allowing fans to read stories of an "older" version of their heroes without messing up the "new" Earth 1 timeline but it all went to heck after that. Fans want to see later years of Marvel, there is no mystery on why future "what if" storylines are always the most interesting There should be two continuities, one where time does happen, even if it's slowly and we eventually see our heroes we love like Bruce/Peter Parker etc die of old age and replaced by new generations and another where comicbook time happens and they never age, the best of both worlds, no reboots necessary, the companies have their comics with the "iconic" characters while still advancing the story and keeping new fans intrigued.

This isn't the past when people couldn't really get older issues of comics outside comic book stores and paying outrageous prices. TPB and other collections are widely available and you can now buy them digitally or Netflix like services where you can read all you want for a monthly fee, not to mention wikipedia and countless of youtube videos and websites describing the history of characters, people are not going to be lost by decades of continuity. It's more difficult to read about all the retcons that have been made to the universes in all the past decades, no one even remembers what is canon anymore or if the retcons are still true or have also been retconned. Comics have been a dying industry for decades and none of their reboots have worked, and now the industry has a final chance of being relevant again thanks to tablets and digital comics and they're making the same mistakes of rebooting things in convoluted ways instead of making it a bit easier for the general audience. I mean I'm a nerd and casual comic fan and I'm ****ing lost with what's happening, imagine how the general audience feels about trying to get into comic books.

ZariusTwo
05-10-2015, 01:53 PM
Exactly. The fact DC are now planning to start publishing comics without a cohesive narrative in the continuity just hits home the fact they think most of their current fans can't keep up with their revisions to history, and now they're basically admitting they have no need to so long as they get a fun story out of it. Marvel admitted to no longer caring about keeping things all straight on Twitter a couple of years back too. They're not in it for the diligent long-term reader, and they are projecting a "the casual crowd are fickle" image onto their new customers which I feel is a condescending and insulting approach.

Leo656
05-10-2015, 02:06 PM
You and me both, brotherrrrrr.

sdp
05-10-2015, 02:41 PM
See, I don't even know with what's going on anymore with DC nor Marvel. So DC is just publishing stories were you only need to know the basic information of characters? Kind of everything in continuity but not really since they won't be bogged down by decades of continuity?

That's actually the best approach they can do now, I'm sure hardcore comic fans will be pissed but for casual readers this is for the best, this doesn't mean there won't be any character progression either or the stories will be boring and there won't be any big stakes, but after that story arc ends it doesn't necessarily have to affect the next 20 years of stories.

ZariusTwo
05-10-2015, 03:10 PM
There will be a continuity, but stories won't be neccersarily told in the right reading order.

For example, Superman will have his identity publicly outed and resrot to wearing a t-shirt and jeans in his book, and Bruce Wayne will be missing presumed dead in his own book, replaced by Jim Gordan, but in other titles Supes could, say, still flying about in his New 52 costume and Bruce's Batman will be a team member in Justice Leauge.

Leo656
05-10-2015, 03:13 PM
The biggest problem with that approach, is that each and every story kind of asks you to pretend every other story doesn't matter or isn't AS important as the one happening presently. "No, no, there's no continuity anymore, so those other guys' stories? That's all just jibber-jabber. This one you're reading right NOW, though... This One, is Legit, and it's important. Honest."

Makes it hard to invest in ANY story when you know that nothing about it will "count" in the very near future. Which is just a further extension of "too many retcons" in the first place. I mean, they kind of already did the "no-strings, no-continuity" deal in the late-90s through early 2000s, and it was the sh*ts. Consequently, as far as what little amount of stuff IS still considered "canon", almost none of it came from 1998-2002. It actually wasn't until they started making a big deal out of continuity again, in the build-up to Infinite Crisis, that the books finally got decent and people actually started reading them again.

There is zero business anywhere that makes MORE money by disregarding its longtime customer base and trying to hook a whole new one. It simply does not happen. THe problem with comics is, technology is killing print across the board, and so they're all getting desperate, looking for the magic trick to slow the bleeding. This minute, they think throwing continuity out the window is the quick fix. Three or four years from now, don't be surprised if they think doing a 180 is the way to go, and suddenly every book will be full of 70s flashbacks like it was ten years ago. Their business is definitely floundering, but it's not because of stories, it's because print is dead and comics cost way too much. But they can't admit that, it'd ruin everything... for them. So, they just keep looking for the gimmick to make comics sell again. Can't happen. So we're just going to keep getting these "let's see what catches on Today" tactics until they're forced to admit that the business model they've built for themselves is not sustainable any longer, and that giving older fans the screws isn't going to suddenly make kids or teens read comics. It's a lot more complicated than they're willing to admit.

CyberCubed
05-10-2015, 05:04 PM
This is why I said comics should be written like TV shows. TV shows go on a set number of seasons and then get canceled. And then when they want to do a new show, they restart continuity from square one and start all over with a different take.

I think comic continuities should last about 10 years, and then reboot everything with no ties to the previous and go in a different direction, and so on and so forth every 10 years. Outside of the hardcore fans, most people don't even keep up with comics after a decade anyway.

Leo656
05-10-2015, 05:28 PM
Stories unfold at a much slower pace in comics. Often a single story could take over a year to finish. So for your idea to work, some major books would only get to tell about 5-10 stories before it all got scrapped. And when they cross over... even more complications, and now, even more fractured continuities and varying versions of major characters, all contradicting each other. That's actually a pretty terrible idea and we've gone over it before.

The only thing that EVER works, no matter HOW long a book has been around, or how many times it's been "retconned" or "rebooted", is this: The stories that the majority of people agree are Good, are "canon". The ones most people agree are awful and prefer to forget, "never happened". You don't need an event or a retcon for that. People figure it out for themselves. All this shuffling stuff does is try and convince people who never read comics, that THIS is the perfect time to start, because "it's simple now". And it doesn't work, because it's really the Exact Same Sh*t with new costumes. Nobody's fooled anymore.

They never need to scrap *anything*, really, and they never need to retcon, reboot, reintroduce, reimagine... all that stuff is nonsense. This is the kind of thing that makes some people prefer a Jeph Loeb type of writer over a Grant Morrison type. People criticize Loeb a lot for being rather fanservice-y, and they're not incorrect, but where he excels is, he can draw from and reference story and character points that every fan remembers fondly, and use that to enrich the story, and anything "questionable" just gets left out. Not to the point of, "It never happened," but, "We're not going to reference it, because most people didn't like it and we're wise enough not to pick at that scab." That kind of storytelling is commonly known as "Continuity By Omission." And it's generally the simplest way to handle these things.

Then you get a guy like Morrison - who I also enjoy - who is a completely different kind of writer, going almost out of his way to dig up the dumbest, most mind-bogglingly stupid ideas in the history of comics, and insisting upon himself that he can make it work. Sometimes he does, and it's great; other times, it's awful, and you can tell he's just jerking off all over the page because DC lets him do whatever the hell he wants with no oversight. Which is great from an artistic point of view - He gets to tell his stories the way he wants to - but it's awful for people who actually like entertaining, fairly-linear, not-complicated super-hero fiction, that doesn't read like the author constantly patting himself on the back for being smarter than his audience.

I enjoy both styles/approaches, but I'd honestly have to say I think a "Loeb" style is much better suited for mainstream comics. It's simpler, and it acknowledges continuity in a way that makes you feel smart and engaged in the material - even if you never read that older stuff before - whereas a "Morrison" style just sort of drowns you in continuity to the point where you feel hopelessly lost. Which is awesome if you're like me and you already know the stuff, but a lot of people don't, and those are the ones saying "too much continuity makes things confusing."

No, it doesn't, but bad or overly-complicated writing does. Which is why these "fixes" tend to do more harm than good in the long run. They don't need to reboot, "start over", whatever you wanna call it... just write Good stories. Which is easy as hell to do when everyone isn't over-thinking marketing variables and trends and what's hip or PC or anything like that.

ZariusTwo
05-13-2015, 12:51 PM
Issue Two details

So the life rafts carrying the survivors of 616 and the Ultimate Universe touch down on Battleworld and we spend a lot of time indulging in a court drama presided over by Doom (who seems to have Susan, Franklyn and Valeria firmly on his side) which comes off a bit like GOT mixed with classic Trek's "Amok Time". Battleworld has actually been running for millennia, but the survivors of the last two decimated universes have only just arrived.

ZariusTwo
05-17-2015, 05:38 AM
Peter David, Charles Soule, Sana Amanant, and Katie Kubert were on hand at the con in Atlantic City to discuss Secret Wars tie-ins and what comes next

After running through these tie-in titles, an ominous slide came up asking "What comes next?" "What from Battleworld gets to stick around?" asked Friedfeld. "There are a couple things from our books that we will keep using when 'Secret Wars' is over." Maestro will stick around after the dust settles on the event, as will "A-Force." "It's going to be around," said Friedfeld. "It's not going to go away when 'Secret Wars' is over.'


http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/acbc-marvel-looks-beyond-secret-wars-towards-the-aftermath

ZariusTwo
05-18-2015, 12:57 PM
Marvel Comics continued to roll out their post-"Secret Wars" plans today, building on the recent revelations about the shape of the Marvel Universe to come.

On Marvel.com, Executive Editor Tom Brevoort revealed that the entire Marvel line will jump forward eight months in time after Jonathan Hickman and Esad Ribic's event wraps with its eighth issue.

“In the same way that events jumped forward in time eight months in 'Avengers' and 'New Avengers' during the lead-up to Secret Wars, so too when we enter the new Marvel Universe eight months will have passed for all of the characters as well," he said. "This provides our creators, even apart from Secret Wars, to drop into exciting new situations and status quos on the fly. So look for surprises and mysteries and changes galore as series resume in the new MU."

Brevoort went on to confirm the report CBR had up over the weekend from Atlantic City Boardwalk Con that among other elements, the superhero team A-Force, the villain Maestro, Mrs. Deadpool's Howling Commandos and the Weirdworld locale will all carry over into the Marvel Universe proper moving forward.

"As we’ve been saying, the building blocks of the new MU are being established throughout the various Secret Wars titles, with every series contributing something to the new MU -- whether that something is a character, a place, an environment, an object, a status quo, or any other thing that you might think of," he explained.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/marvel-universe-to-jump-forward-eight-months-in-wake-of-secret-wars

ZariusTwo
05-29-2015, 11:49 AM
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/29/all-new-all-different-marvel-previews-hit-stores-in-july/

All-New Marvel will have previews available in July

snake
05-29-2015, 03:44 PM
Secret Wars is awesome so far. Why can't they just stay on Battleworld forever?

Renew Your Vows looks so sh*tty. Slott can't write dialouge.

ZariusTwo
05-30-2015, 03:59 PM
He used to be pretty sharp. He's just phoning it in now because he realized any dumb idea he makes moves sales so he got lazy.