What would a more adult aimed show look like?

[Tarris Vaal]

Its a common complaint that the Nicktoons show is aimed at kids. That said, the style of the Nicktoons show seems to be generally very popular - certainly for myself its my favourite presentation and design of the assorted characters. That seems to be a common impression from others on the board - looks great, but sometimes frustratingly little substance to the plotlines.


What if Nickelodeon did commission a revamp of the show that was aimed at an older demographic? This isn't to say an 18/R rated version - we're not talking Half shell heroes on the Iron throne. Just aiming a little higher than normal - lets say equivalent to anime such as Full Metal Alchemist for instance - so roughly the late teens, early twenties as prime demographic.

I'm not asking if this is likely to happen. Its not (toy sales alone would demand it). That isn't the issue, what I'm curious about is if the show were made with this more adult mindset what would it look like as far as the stories and characters in the show?

If you were in charge of making such an incarnation, what would you want to see in it?

Would you get April / Casey as roughly the same age as the turtles again? What villains would you use besides Shredder? What classic plotlines would be used and what would work as a new plot line? Would you include an April/Donatello esque relationship arc? or any romantic arc? How dark would you make it? Could you keep the same levels of 'silly' humour?

Have at it guys, I'm intrigued to know what you might think :)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

What if Nickelodeon did commission a revamp of the show that was aimed at an older demographic? This isn't to say an 18/R rated version - we're not talking Half shell heroes on the Iron throne.

DUDE.

We ARE now talking Half Shell Heroes on the Iron Throne. SOMEBODY needs to make this happen. :tlol:

"Game of Shredders"... with various people warring for the mantle of the Shredder and rule of the Foot Clan after the suspicious passing of Oroku Saki.

Hamato Raphael
Oroku Pimiko
Karai
The Foot's Elite Guard
Cheng, the Foot Mystic
Ch'rell

MAKE. IT. HAPPEN!!! :tlol:

[neatoman]

A more adult version would probably go back to the revenge cycle.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

"Splinter is coming."

[Tarris Vaal]

DUDE.

We ARE now talking Half Shell Heroes on the Iron Throne. SOMEBODY needs to make this happen.

"Game of Shredders"... with various people warring for the mantle of the Shredder and rule of the Foot Clan after the suspicious passing of Oroku Saki.

Hamato Raphael
Oroku Pimiko
Karai
The Foot's Elite Guard
Cheng, the Foot Mystic
Ch'rell

MAKE. IT. HAPPEN!!!

Actually that does sound fun.... but we digress ;) A topic for another thread perhaps?

[TurtleTitan97]

Ideally, a TMNT show with a similar tone and level of violence like Netflix's Daredevil is what I'd want. It would make sense considering TMNT did start off originally as a parody of Frank Miller's work on Daredevil.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Ideally, a TMNT show with a similar tone and level of violence like Netflix's Daredevil is what I'd want. It would make sense considering TMNT did start off originally as a parody of Frank Miller's work on Daredevil.

Agreed.

But I believe the thread is specifically hypothesizing about an animated show, not just a show in general.

Man... a TMNT show done in the style of Daredevil or even the Flash... that'd be so good.

[ABrown]

You would have the 2007 TMNT movie.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You would have the 2007 TMNT movie.

Ummm... you sure about that?

[senpai]

I'd just like something that would reflect the comics more. I wouldn't want anything darker or more "adult" than that.

[Amaranthus]

"Splinter is coming."

Okay, that made me smile.
Good job.

[IndigoErth]

I dunno about the details, but I'd love to at least see them caught up in age with that of their franchise. Slightly worn out and slightly aged - just like their older fans lol - but still badass 30-something Turtles. :P I'd still die if they did some HBO/AMC/whatever style live action show with them... Though that would cost a fortune. *sad hopeless face*

[KC Midnight]

Even something similar to what's produced for Adult Swim would be pretty awesome. Older audience=more mature cartoons. Of course, sometimes they nail it other times...not so much.

[senpai]

I dunno about the details, but I'd love to at least see them caught up in age with that of their franchise. Slightly worn out and slightly aged - just like their older fans lol - but still badass 30-something Turtles. :P I'd still die if they did some HBO/AMC/whatever style live action show with them... Though that would cost a fortune. *sad hopeless face*

I don't think their lives would be much different if they were 30-something turtles. They'd still be in the sewers, probably still fighting crime topside, or it might go in a direction like the '07 movie...but them being older wouldn't make a big difference. In regards to maturity, the Nick show seems to capture their development very well. All of the turtles, for the most part, have matured noticeably and they are still teenagers. I wouldn't mind seeing older turtles either though the creators would have to step up their game and give us some new stuff we haven't seen yet in other shows and movies.

[Metalwolf]

"More mature?"

Firstly, it would show blood and scratches/slashes/whatever, none of this 'implied' stuff. And it would have people actually having that happen to them onscreen!

Secondly, it would be more integrated and less plot amnesia-y then how it now is.

Third, it would have 3-4 episodes at least for the character building story arcs, stuff like Spirit Quest and the Dark Raph episodes would look into what makes that character tick right now. No more of this 'barely explored and wrapped up in a single episode' stuff.

Fourth, it wouldn't homage the 80's as much as this current Nick show does now. I know some want 80's stuff like crossovers and whatnot, but this show needs to stand on it's own and make it's own story. Otherwise, what is really being added to the whole?

Fifth, people will die onscreen. Either some will die after having been savaged by a vicious mutant or destroyed by Kraang, or being cut down in battle. Shredder will kill people, his mutants will kill people, the Turtles will kill mutants/people, Kraang will kill anyone. It's just going to happen eventually.

Sixth, no 'goofy' mutants. I don't like Pizzaface, very few on here do, so that is one that definitely won't ever show up.

That's what I think it would look like if it was a bit more 'grown-up.'

[senpai]

Would the turtles kill? Hmmm... Splinter always practiced compassion towards the enemy and I imagine the turtles would want to express this too. I don't like the idea of the turtles killing, personally. I don't think that's a good route to go down. Maybe Raph for a while but I think killing would mess him up more.

[Tarris Vaal]

What about the presentation of April, Karai and Casey?

Do you think it works having them roughly the same age as the Turtles or does it work better with them older? Say what you may of Apritello, etc but I've actually enjoyed the change in dynamics that particularly a younger April has brought into the Nick show. It opens a lot of possibilities I think, and a lot of avenues not explored presently in the current Nicktoon. Things like the romantic angle is obvious, (alongside questions of prejudice, social acceptance, etc, etc, etc) - but it also opens up areas like April's chances of going to college, Casey growing into vigilantism (and potentially alcoholism), Karai dealing with her position within the Foot clan and her envy of the other people her age living a normal life. Plus there is more opportunity for parents to make themselves an important part - Kirby could be a lot more interesting and in depth as a counterpoint to Splinter for April.

I also think particularly if death was not going to be avoided in the show (including by the Turtles themselves) that adult April would react differently to a younger teenage April. I think it would be more interesting to see how the younger April reacted.

On the other note - if you were planning a series like this, would you adapt the ideas that the Nicktoon has presented? Would the Kraang stay largely like the Nicktoon version? Would they be crueler? Would Stockman and his mousers be more vicious and less jokey? Would the Kraang as presented even work?

Characters like Bishop and the EPF certainly would translate over well because they deal with more adult themes of prejudice and political manipulation. Old Hob would be in a similar line i think (and potentially Hun with more brutal depictions of gang warfare or intimidation). By comparison, are the Kraang too comical?



To make a more adult themed turtles show, would you have to present older versions of the characters or could you keep them as teenagers (even late teens)?
For myself, I think it wouldn't take much nudging to bring the target demographic up from the Nickshow. Actually on screen deaths are certainly one way, but even just being more aware of surrounding issues of what they are showing would push the boundaries on the existing show. Stuff like Pulverizer's family, the consequences of the Kraang invasions, lasting injuries or psychological trauma on Karai, Leo and Raph... the list goes on.

Maybe Raph for a while but I think killing would mess him up more.

It would certainly be a distinct way of adding more depth to his character. Heck I think they could and should do that in the current incarnation!


Third, it would have 3-4 episodes at least for the character building story arcs, stuff like Spirit Quest and the Dark Raph episodes would look into what makes that character tick right now. No more of this 'barely explored and wrapped up in a single episode' stuff.

Good grief yes. 100% agreed. I think showing consistent, developing characters arcs is the most important part of any show aiming for an older demographic. Even if the arc itself isn't delving into much 'dark' territory. Babylon 5 was a good show for skimming dark subjects without going too deep (well... not too often anyway), whilst still offering good character arcs. And Daredevil and Arrow seem similar in that regard. I haven't seen Flash yet so couldn't comment :( (soon, soon)

[Mew]

"Splinter is coming."

"...To a decision."
That scene in the movie, tho...

[Warhorse]

Ideally, a TMNT show with a similar tone and level of violence like Netflix's Daredevil is what I'd want. It would make sense considering TMNT did start off originally as a parody of Frank Miller's work on Daredevil.

Ditto! I agree with this. Heck, doesn't even need to be in live action (even though that would be cool) but an animated/CG toon in the maturity of Daredevil would be awesome.

Would the turtles kill? Hmmm... Splinter always practiced compassion towards the enemy and I imagine the turtles would want to express this too. I don't like the idea of the turtles killing, personally. I don't think that's a good route to go down. Maybe Raph for a while but I think killing would mess him up more.

Depends. In the comics, they did kill, so they're not exactly some noble knights of the city. But, Daredevil so far has done well where he tries his best not to kill someone, even though he could have done so easily.

But still, seeing Leo decapitate someone, or Raph going completely berserk, stuff like this in a more mature show, they would have no reason holding back.

[victory_angel]

I would say having the IDW comic adapted into a televised story or as a straight up Japanese anime since anime isn't afraid of adult and gory situations in their cartoon. Heck the original FMA anime implied Rose was kidnapped and gang raped by Military Police.

Take out the part about the Turtles being reincarnations of a Japanese family as that would be confusing and not the most popular of origin stories. But maybe you can have it be that Hamato Yoshi and his wife Tang Shen are part of the Foot Clan. Hamato is leader and he has four sons: Tenchi, Ryo, Shion, and Omi who are all being trained as ninja. Each of his sons were gifted a baby turtle for their birthday and Hamato Yoshi keeps a pet rat he names Splinter.

Oroku Saki is opportunistic member of the Foot Clan, frames Hamato Yoshi for a crime he didn't commit. Yoshi and his family journey to New York to escape their persecutors. Oroku Saki follows and murders Hamato Yoshi, and his four sons before taking Tang Shen as his own. In the on onslaught the turtles and Splinter escape or are tossed out like garbage and land in a puddle of ooze. Lost and confused they all end up wandering alone through out the city. All of them have no memory of who they are as people, all they know is a vague memory of that there were others like them and the name of the boy who was their owner. So they use the name of their own as way of creating an identity for themselves for the time being. Such as Shion being Donatello, Omi being Mikey ect. And even when they reunite with each other and Splinter they still at times use the Japanese names. But they take on the names of "Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, and Michelangelo" as names they can use to fit in with the world around them.

[Metalwolf]

What about the presentation of April, Karai and Casey?I think I'd keep them teenaged, there is a lot of other TMNT works that has them as grownups, but teenaged is a bit more unique. I think a lot of the fun is seeing them as naive teens at first, and then having their world-views changed as they grow up and see what the world is really like. Plus I'd have to have the characters move beyond the present setup of their mindsets (in Nick currently) with April growing an ego complex over her supposed Kraang abilities, Karai wanting to personally kill Shredder and take over the Foot herself, and Casey eventually becoming overwhelmed (and possibly alcoholic) once the teenage thrill of being with mutants wears off, and he inevitably starts seeing stuff he doesn't want to see (or can emotionally handle.)


I also think particularly if death was not going to be avoided in the show (including by the Turtles themselves) that adult April would react differently to a younger teenage April. I think it would be more interesting to see how the younger April reacted.It would be interesting to see, especially as she wouldn't have the maturity or life experiences a more grown up April would have. It would either make her more pacifist eventually, or it would make her into a cold steely beeotch.

On the other note - if you were planning a series like this, would you adapt the ideas that the Nicktoon has presented? Would the Kraang stay largely like the Nicktoon version? Would they be crueler? Would Stockman and his mousers be more vicious and less jokey? Would the Kraang as presented even work?The Kraang would be behaving differently, that's for sure. Their ships and facilities have a cold sterile quality to them, while they themselves would be cruel and indifferent hive minds that you'd never see 'crack jokes.'

Characters like Bishop and the EPF certainly would translate over well because they deal with more adult themes of prejudice and political manipulation. Old Hob would be in a similar line i think (and potentially Hun with more brutal depictions of gang warfare or intimidation). By comparison, are the Kraang too comical?I think Old Hob could be interesting, since he appears to have an anti-human prejudice. However, I think he'd be good to use as a way to explore the different perspective a mutated animal feels as opposed to a mutated human, since I have yet to see anything that shows that. Maybe in my version he'd even go as far as hating mutated humans, since to him they act no different and still are 'human' in a way that no animal can ever be. He might even try and start a war between them, since to him animals are 'superior.'



For myself, I think it wouldn't take much nudging to bring the target demographic up from the Nickshow. Actually on screen deaths are certainly one way, but even just being more aware of surrounding issues of what they are showing would push the boundaries on the existing show. Stuff like Pulverizer's family, the consequences of the Kraang invasions, lasting injuries or psychological trauma on Karai, Leo and Raph... the list goes on.That is the stuff that I'd love to see, since it doesn't explored enough, deaths or no. Everybody seems too unnaturally hunky-dory on whatever is going on, or the 'emotional trauma' lasts a very short time. Splinter going mad was realistic, April's dad being super paranoid and afraid is realistic, but April herself, the Turtles, and anything going on with Shredder's goons doesn't seem to be.





Good grief yes. 100% agreed. I think showing consistent, developing characters arcs is the most important part of any show aiming for an older demographic. Even if the arc itself isn't delving into much 'dark' territory. Babylon 5 was a good show for skimming dark subjects without going too deep (well... not too often anyway), whilst still offering good character arcs. And Daredevil and Arrow seem similar in that regard. I haven't seen Flash yet so couldn't comment :( (soon, soon)Especially when certain events are shown to be 'important,' and then later only touched upon briefly. Plus they'd also have to make sure they guard against the arc dragging on too long before it's resolved, with which Karai's mutation is in heavy danger of becoming tedious, and the Kraang hanging around too much long after the Shredder and co. should have been brought back in. The kids might not give voice to such feelings, but adults certainly would. Enough so that the execs might speed things up a bit or risk a ratings drop.

[Coola Yagami]

Hmmm realistically speaking...

A bit more violence. Namely, the Turtles will actually kill the Foot without a second thought, but it won't be a gory bloodbath like everyone thinks Mirage is. It's NOT. It's just that people don't do that fake 'gets hit by a sword like it was a punch to the face' thing that cartoons do. Fights like April and Karai would end with cute widdle April actually having a black eye and swollen cheek.

No plot amnesia. Adult shows are rarely that badly written.

Probably a slightly more adult humor. There might be jokes implying April and Don and/or Casey do it and so forth.

Mikey will def be toned down. He'll still be funny, but just... not as stupid. Face it, most of his humor is forced because oh, we just need to have ONE lame-ass joke per episode to have the kids laugh. Here he'll be funny but not in your face all the time.

Deeper things that most cartoons gloss over. April might be brooding over her father being a mutated bat monster, or Splinter might be moping over Karai being Miwa. Stuff that you can't just worry about for a minute and just completely forget about in the next scene or the next episode.

The existence of things like beer, alcohol, dirty mags, smoking, etc. Doesn't mean the main characters will be doing it of course, but it means we might see Raph get in a bar brawl or something.

[Noxonius]

It would probably a combination of the seriousness from the 2003 show and the disturbing and grotesqueness of the Nick show.

[Shark_Blade]

TMNT IDW in CGI show.

You would have the 2007 TMNT movie.
A boring, convoluted mess? No thanks.

[GoldMutant]

I'd say several categories of the show would change to aim for a more adult crowd:

1. Heroes
-Instead of simply transitioning into the colored masks, why not open up with why they wear the colors. Start them in the traditional red colors and then about four episodes in, they all get their respective masks because of something that screws them up.
-If we go based on time for the show, I could see them all getting older as characters and physically.
-Though Donnie and Leo I'd see as the same with them getting used to being a pacifist and leader, Raph and Mikey should be changed. Give more to Raph, such as his emotions and wit not just brooding with anger. Mikey should mature throughout the series and his humor should be common, but not simply all the time and irritating.
-Perhaps Casey could be built towards his future of alcoholic, make him a character that's difficult to comprehend.
-Why not build April up to being a reporter throughout the series? In addition, either limit the capabilities of her powers so they aren't a deus ex machina or make her overconfident with them, causing issues for her with some of the characters.

2. Villains
I can honestly see most of the villains being more well-written, becoming much more complex and dangerous overall. Let's focus on the primary villains here:

Shredder- Primarily the same, but much more vicious to his minions if they fail.
Kraang- Why not go the route of the Utroms here? Why not have half of the Kraang trying to survive on Earth and being friendly to the Turtles while the other half (led by Kraang Prime and Sub-Prime) as destructive beings desiring world domination.

Karai- Make her a very complex character, torn between helping the Turtles, taking over the Foot, staying under Shredder's orders, and questioning herself. Again, build her up as a character with her decisions.

Baxter Stockman- I'd see him as a much more tragic villain that we feel sympathy for. He always suffers in the franchise, it'd make sense to pour more emotion out of him than usual.

The henchmutants- Dogpound and Fishface I'd see as the same as before, except more hindsight of how they become associated with the criminal life. Xever I'd see as more dangerous as a character given his connections as Mr. X while Bradford can be built up as an enemy before mutation, perhaps being a Foot Elite.

For Bebop and Rocksteady, they'd probably have more of a role here and despite being enjoyable characters, we also don't know their background. It could lead to flashbacks to establish themselves such as Steranko's connections to the criminal life and with Shredder as well Zeck getting more background of turning into a criminal as well. I'd see Zeck having humor still, but humor based on J.B Smoove as well as darker humor as a villain. Steranko would also be the no-nonsense member, if not being much more cruel to tie more into his Russian heritage.

Lastly, Tiger Claw could be combined with the character of Old Hob, perhaps making the character much more racist as a result in addition to still being dangerous as a villain.

3. Stories and Tone
-If the tone of the show changes for the adults, I could see it being more violence driven. The action would have more weight to it for the fight scenes as well as keeping them well choreographed as before.
-Some plots give forth much more emotional weight and built off, such as the triangle between Karai, Shredder and Splinter.
-Some themes can be hinted at with the characters such as racism with Tiger Claw and possibly genocide with the Earth Protection Force and Bishop. I wouldn't fully go out here, but some themes that can be handled maturely for the audience and giving more weight too.
-Lastly, make the stories actual stories, not just self-contained episodes. Build them up and hit us with shocking developments to make us invested.
-Build the stakes of the villains as the series progresses. An example being the Kraang, build up them being villains just perfecting experiments and then their story builds towards The Invasion.

Mostly, make the series more character driven and serious, with strong story progression to become invested in and excellent characters to like. Blend that in with references, good sense of humor, and fight scenes with both weight and a little more violence. That's how I'd see it.

[Tarris Vaal]

If we go based on time for the show, I could see them all getting older as characters and physically.

I got the impression we kind of get that anyway with the current nicktoons. The characters have certainly mentioned events being 'a few months ago' or 'last year'. So there is an implication of time passing.

-Though Donnie and Leo I'd see as the same with them getting used to being a pacifist and leader, Raph and Mikey should be changed. Give more to Raph, such as his emotions and wit not just brooding with anger. Mikey should mature throughout the series and his humor should be common, but not simply all the time and irritating.
-Perhaps Casey could be built towards his future of alcoholic, make him a character that's difficult to comprehend.
-Why not build April up to being a reporter throughout the series? In addition, either limit the capabilities of her powers so they aren't a deus ex machina or make her overconfident with them, causing issues for her with some of the characters.

It would be good to see more of the characters maturing. Leo has done this a lot i think recently, but its harder to say that for anyone else. At least on a consistent level. Raph and Mikey particularly would need more.

Maybe a pattern system for the episodes? so each season is divided into 5 groups - with 5 episodes each. Each group has 1 episode focused strongly on one or two of the turtles in particular, or on one of the secondary characters like April, Casey or one of the Villains. The fifth in each set as a 'free for all' episode where you would get the lighter hearted or more filler style episodes
Then have a final set of episodes dealing directly with the end of season arc.


Whilst Shredder and the Foot are integral to the opening Turtles story, you could save the Kraang as a long term hidden threat, slowly being revealed towards the end of a later season? Keep them in the shadows, and implied or mentioned, with their influence felt and the build up of an invasion, but rarely ever show them directly until they make a triumphant return - a little like how the Daleks were dealt with in Seasons 1-3 of the new Dr who series?


The villains in general I think need more depth in most cases. Its nice having a broad rogues gallery, but a lot of them are quite shallow characters in the nicktoons. Baxter especially.
At very least the villains should be depicted as being very dangerous. Nicktoons is really good at this with Shredder and Tigerclaw (and to a lesser degree Rocksteady and Bebop) but Fishface and Rahzar - especially Rahzar, have become very sidelined and just dont feel very threatening anymore.


Lastly, Tiger Claw could be combined with the character of Old Hob, perhaps making the character much more racist as a result in addition to still being dangerous as a villain.

Great minds think alike :) You could easily build him up into becoming Old Hob as the seasons progress.



The fights in the current Nicktoons are great - easily one of the shows strongest points. But you're right, its the emotional weight and the characters emotional development that needs more to it - and especially in a more adult orientated show - it just opens up more avenues to make the characters suffer more from the consequences of their actions and the actions of others.


Quoted from Sharkblade
TMNT IDW in CGI show.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IDW uses a lot of the more mystical elements, whereas Nicktoons focuses on the scifi side of the show (Pantheon as opposed to Kraang). Would the Pantheon work so well in a tv show context? Or would they be a little over convoluted? Lets be fair, the Nicktoons show is already earning criticism for mysticism with the healing mantras, I know the Pantheon is significantly different in principal, but it still relates to the same ideas of mysticism.

Time travel as well could easily be seen as a little too childish or forced in a more adult themed show I think. Maybe it could be done, but I fear it would be very easy for it to look out of place.

Probably a slightly more adult humor. There might be jokes implying April and Don and/or Casey do it and so forth.

Quoted from Yagami
Mikey will def be toned down. He'll still be funny, but just... not as stupid. Face it, most of his humor is forced because oh, we just need to have ONE lame-ass joke per episode to have the kids laugh. Here he'll be funny but not in your face all the time.

Humour will be a major sticking point I think, because its so subjective. Nicktoons gets a good balance mostly, but I think adding in more adult or more cynical jokes (especially from Raph or Don) would help counterbalance the more childish antics from Mikey. Nicktoons cant really do that, so Mikey hasn't really got a counterweight to his humour.
The danger would be making it too crass or vulgar, which i think the Bay movie was at risk of doing at times. Keeping it biting, cynical or witty rather than just crude would be important I think.

Quoted from victory Angel
In the on onslaught the turtles and Splinter escape or are tossed out like garbage and land in a puddle of ooze. Lost and confused they all end up wandering alone through out the city. All of them have no memory of who they are as people, all they know is a vague memory of that there were others like them and the name of the boy who was their owner.

That raises another good point as to how you'd depict the mutation itself. Nicktoons does a fairly good job of indicating the traumatic side of it, but could more be done without making it look like something from The Thing?

[victory_angel]

That raises another good point as to how you'd depict the mutation itself. Nicktoons does a fairly good job of indicating the traumatic side of it, but could more be done without making it look like something from The Thing?

That's true. This is the first televised incarnations that make the mutations seem like a really painful experience. The other ones the mutations just happen. And the recent 2014 movie suggested that the mutation process was not instantaneous, but took place over time as we see the garbage shifting around to indicate time's passage as they mutated.

So one adult thing that could happen is that the Mutation is a painful horrific process, after all your bones and muscles are stretching and reforming. Parts of your body are melting off, other appendages are sprouting from your body. Think of the discomfort you have with your teeth growing in for the first time...or maybe having a tooth in sore need of a root canal. Make that pain felt through out your entire body and max it by at least ten.

But also have it a slow and painful process as well. The best way to show a mutation would be like the birth of the Wrath and Greed in Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. Where you are lucky if you survive the mutation process.

[Tarris Vaal]

Personally i felt that faster mutations were 'tidier' to compress into an episodic format - So I'd imagine that a series version would keep to the 'quick and painful' kind of mutations that Nicktoons has proposed. Certainly it helps ground the ideas in some kind of logic - after all it isnt likely to be a pleasant sensation! - plus it keeps consistent with other 'horror' tropes like werewolf transformations.

Actually, that opens another area to look at. I completely agree that the recent superhero series on netflix, sky, etc are a good indication of the kind of 'feel' that an 'adult' version of the show would aim for - and especially Daredevil or Gotham among those.

But in these cases, those series follow the modern trend of going out of their way to ground the 'fantastical' side of the story with some logic and - where possible - explainable science. Turtles may struggle with this in some cases, not least because the main characters themselves are more juvenile, but the core synopsis is so bizarre to begin with.

It could be a lot of fun for someone to play with trying to make it all fit into a 'realistic' plot :) But it again suggests that more 'out there' elements like the Kraang, Dimension X, the extra dimensional origins of the mutagen would all likely be dropped, built up towards or glossed over :(

And say what you will of nicktoons Kraang, but I really liked them :)

Stuff like the time travel, Fugitoid, neutrinos, Triceratons, etc are even more likely to be quietly moved aside in favour of more 'terrestial' threats.


Villain wise, I'd expect plots to focus on the Foot, Karai and Shredder, possibly with Hun and the Purple Dragons (as well as other mafia groups). Maybe also Old Hob and Bishop.

The mutant of the week stuff would be harder to say, I guess it'd depend on how easily they'd fit into the Foot clan.


Thinking on the plots Nicktoons has brought in though. We have as the main ones I can think of;

* Shredders war with the Hamato clan
- Easily doable in an adult aimed context and central plot to the show really. Mutants like Dogpound/Rahzar, Tigerclaw and Fishface could all benefit from being presented as more vicious and dangerous (How awesome could Rahzar and Fishface be given the chance?).
Its hard to say if they need to make Shredder any more dangerous than he is in Nicktoons though. Particularly if the show became unafraid of showing blood and injury, Shredder's already shown as very threatening.

* Baxter Stockman
- Again a great subplot for an adult aimed show. Particularly following Nicktoons example. I think if they combined elements from 2k3's version as well they could have a great one for depicting a horrifying and tragic villain

* Karai's heritage
- I think this angle on Karai was one of the strongest ideas to come out of Nicktoons. I hope this is drawn on more in future iterations.

* The Kraang experimentation and Invasion
- Although I fear the Kraang themselves might be a little 'silly' for an adult aimed show they could potentially up the ante on them - making them similar to Matrix Agents for example. That said, it'd be even easier to just slowly build up hints of their influence until the end of a season where all hell breaks lose.

* Rat King
- Nicktoons version i really, really like. He's already quite dark and it wouldn't take much tweaking to make him a worthy character in an adult aimed show. Though I dont know if the giant rat invasion would work so well because its delving into the 'fantastical' too much. I dont know the IDW comics version very well, so maybe there are elements from that which would work better?

* Pulverizer
- Whilst silly, it was also really tragic which is great fodder for a higher demographic. I'd expect the arc to end in his death rather than his mutation though. Mutagen man is definitely a step too far into 'weird', but if we run on the theory that not everyone survives mutation, then this could easily work as a tragedy that weighs heavily on the main cast - particularly Donnie.

* Leatherhead
- Hard to say how you could fit in Leatherhead without following the Kraang arc closely. That said, he's an awesome character, but I think the Nicktoons version would have to be changed quite dramatically to fit a more 'logical' format.

* Slash
- I'd love to see Slash translated to a more adult audience. I think he probably translates better than any other villain after Shredder. His origins are relatively simple, his motivations make him a dark mirror of Raph, and with restrictions on violence lifted he could be presented really well I think.

* April love triangle
- Personally i really liked this idea from nicktoons, but its obviously been very (VERY) divisive for a variety of reasons. That said, this and the Karai/Leo arc have added additional depth and a different angle for developing the characters involved. Given the big complaint is how mishandled it sometimes feels, I suspect that were this translated to a show like this, the additional freedom of the older demographic would allow the show to explore more deeply and more broadly the implications and the ongoing effects of this. It would, I think, still be divisive, but I suspect it would also be a lot better handled because of the added flexibility.

* Steranko and Zeck
- Easily my favourite versions of Bebop and Rocksteady. I'd like to think an adult show would be able to show the brutality of this pair both before and after mutation, and really give them the edge they show in the IDW comic - potentially more so as they add a greater level of intelligence in Nicktoons.


I'm sure i've missed some, but how do you guys think the Nicktoons plot arcs would translate? Would it work better to use other characters like Alopex or Old Hob instead?

[Coola Yagami]

Humour will be a major sticking point I think, because its so subjective. Nicktoons gets a good balance mostly, but I think adding in more adult or more cynical jokes (especially from Raph or Don) would help counterbalance the more childish antics from Mikey. Nicktoons cant really do that, so Mikey hasn't really got a counterweight to his humour.
The danger would be making it too crass or vulgar, which i think the Bay movie was at risk of doing at times. Keeping it biting, cynical or witty rather than just crude would be important I think.




I still feel the more childish stupid humor for the sake of humor will be toned down or skipped out. I mean honestly, the last episode, there was really no reason at all for Mikey to be wearing some weird-ass mask in that one scene. It was just out of nowhere and pointless except for 'there's that silly Mikey again, making the kiddies at home laugh'. No. Just no.

[Luckyday]

With an adult aimed show, I would really love it if it was treated as a coming of age story that centers around the main four as well with the full intent of exploring concepts of Transhumanism as a sci fi element since has humans turn animals and animals with elevated, or maybe not elevated intelligence but are enable to cognate and talk with an non-human psyche. In short, talk like a human but with a mind and perspective of a dog.

Early part of the show is them figuring out who they are and their place in the world, while the later part is them growing into young men, and learning that in the real world there are no strict good guys and bad guys but a circle of violence that feeds off from revenge and fear.

Also I would like see a moral ambiguous Master Splinter. Not a twisted evil version of him, but someone who has a "the ends justified the means" sort of character , while the Shredder is type of character who honestly believes of what he is doing is for the greater good and not because he is just a disturb sociopath that does evil things for **** and giggles.

To counter balance Master Splinter, the turtles should be written light and impressional kids who know little of the outside world and are wary of outsiders.

Although Master Splinter isn't a frail martial teacher like the other versions who were trying to pass their wisdom and fighting style before he kicks the bucket, but his reasons of being there with the turtles and his relationship, which sort of explains why he sends them off dangerous missions, is similar to that of a general to his troop of soldiers. They simply need each other to survive in this dangerous world, but there is a close paternal bond underneath the strict formality of "No sir." and "Yes sir." Kind of like Batman and Robin.

[Jester]

I still hold out a Black and White and (blood and bandanna) Red series adapting the main Mirage canon.

[Sabacooza]

I still hold out a Black and White and (blood and bandanna) Red series adapting the main Mirage canon.That would be sick! Too bad that film where they were going to do an adaptation of the first issue when Mirage had it never happened.:(

[victory_angel]

I can see a situations such as this.

The wall opens reveal a large tunnel like room with a couch area and large TV. Much of the furniture and decorations cobbled together from scrap and refuse. Of to the right is a doorway leading to the dorms area. Leonardo is practicing with his twin katana in a recessed area of the lair that serves as the Dojo. Raph and Mikey enter the lair. Mikey is proudly carrying the stolen Pizza.

Michelangelo: Who's up for pizza?

Leonardo looks up and stops training. Returning his swords to their sheaths.

Leonardo (stern tone): How did you get the pizzas Mikey?

Michelangelo: Three fingered ninja discount, dude. How else do you think I'd get 'em?

Leonardo (Scolding): You know we're not supposed to use our skills like that!

Raphael: You want to go back to the days when all we ate was worms and algae, be my guest. It's not like we can just waltz into a pizza joint whenever we want. Just look at us...we're freaks. Stealing is just another way of surviving in this town!

Raph doesn't see the worm like tail sliding along the floor close to his feet.

Leonardo (Scolding): Master Splinter will not approve!

Raphael: Master Splinter this...Master Splinter that!You may as well marry our dear old dad for the way you talk about him, Splinter Junio-Ahhhhhh!

The worm like tale yanks Raphael's feet out from under him. The red masked turtle looks up at the face of their adoptive father, Splinter.

Splinter (Disapprovingly):Then perhaps you won't mind being tasked with cleaning the dojo this evening...

Splinter's glances at Michelangelo who forces an uncomfortable smile on his face as Raph rolls to his knees.

Splinter:...Both of you!

Michelangelo: Hey no worries Sensei, we made sure no one saw us. Right Raph?!

Splinter pulls Michelangeo's foot out from under him sending the orange masked turtle tumbling to the floor.

Splinter: I'm so glad you at least were able to do that. (Sighs) I suppose we have no other choice then to enjoy this meal you have have so generously provided us.

Leonardo: I'm going to get Donnie...I swear he'd forget to eat if we didn't remind him.

Splinter: Go then...as for you two. We will be having a long talk about what your ninja training is not to be used for!

Leo takes the pizzas from Mikey and puts them on the dining table which is nothing more then a hinged door set at top a cable spool. Set around it is a mixed assortment assortment of chairs and stools. After he sents down the pizza he walks towards the dorms. Splinter pulls Raph to his feet and drags both the red and orange masked Turtles out of the room. Michelangelo plaintively protests.

MICHELANGELO: Why can't it ever be a normal father to son talk...like the birds and the bees?

[Tarris Vaal]

Thats quite an interesting idea - having more edgy traits to the existing primary cast...

I love the idea of Splinter being much more morally ambiguous. It'd be very interesting to have a version of him as energetic and strong as the nicktoons version, but with a moral compass that has him only a few degrees from being no better than Shredder.
I suppose you could literally have them almost the same character, but where Shredder remained human, Splinter's mutation, exile and newfound family has caused his ruthlessness to become tempered with a little bit more humanity (ironically enough).

I'd love a twist behind Splinter's background as well - imagine discovering that it was actually the Hamato clan that was restored and it was the Foot who had taken Splinter in at a young age - only for him to be kicked out following the rivalry with Shredder over Tang Shen. Splinter just tells it differently :)


On that note - Mikey as a juvenile deliquent is a great idea (especially as a means of tempering his sense of humour - I guess he'd end up similar to how Mondo Gecko was portrayed recently).

If you were to give an 'edge' to the others though, what would you suggest?


Splinter - Hidden Ruthlessness and darker past
Mikey - Juvenile deliquency
Casey - Alcoholism (substance abuse?)
Don -
Leo -
Raph -
April -

Quoted from Luckyday
With an adult aimed show, I would really love it if it was treated as a coming of age story that centers around the main four as well with the full intent of exploring concepts of Transhumanism as a sci fi element since has humans turn animals and animals with elevated, or maybe not elevated intelligence but are enable to cognate and talk with an non-human psyche. In short, talk like a human but with a mind and perspective of a dog.

Early part of the show is them figuring out who they are and their place in the world, while the later part is them growing into young men, and learning that in the real world there are no strict good guys and bad guys but a circle of violence that feeds off from revenge and fear

That would be a core part of an adult aimed series i think. The question of what it means to be human and the road to maturity. Turtles is almost uniquely placed in superhero lore for exploring the transition from boys to men (obviously you have things like the Teen titans, but they are always in the shadow of other hero stories like Batman because of the shared characters. Turtles doesnt have this problem). I think that them maturing on screen would be vital to the story telling.

[Ceres]

I would make April and Casey adults again(as i see their teenage selfes as repulsive and totally obnoxious) making the turtles slightly older and show off blood, injuries and on-screen death scenes. Like Splinter gets killed and the Turtles swear revenge bla, stuff like that and are out to killing Shredder for destroying their father etc.

I would change the Kraang into Utroms again and giving them distinct personalities and more seriousness( as Krang Prime still stays their Queen/King whatever gender it is now). Also Prime would be no longer the solemnly creator of the alien brains as they can reproduce under themselfes too. I also would reinforce Krang again pairing him up with Subprime this time as weird duo fighting for the praise of Prime. The Spy and the Scientist, both "princes" of their race( a takeback to IDW comics).

Character Arcs would be longer and more serious and so on.

[Ravenshell]

"Splinter is coming."

Oh, God, this made me laugh so hard! ;D

"More mature?"

Firstly, it would show blood and scratches/slashes/whatever, none of this 'implied' stuff. And it would have people actually having that happen to them onscreen!

Secondly, it would be more integrated and less plot amnesia-y then how it now is.

Third, it would have 3-4 episodes at least for the character building story arcs, stuff like Spirit Quest and the Dark Raph episodes would look into what makes that character tick right now. No more of this 'barely explored and wrapped up in a single episode' stuff.

Fourth, it wouldn't homage the 80's as much as this current Nick show does now. I know some want 80's stuff like crossovers and whatnot, but this show needs to stand on it's own and make it's own story. Otherwise, what is really being added to the whole?

Fifth, people will die onscreen. Either some will die after having been savaged by a vicious mutant or destroyed by Kraang, or being cut down in battle. Shredder will kill people, his mutants will kill people, the Turtles will kill mutants/people, Kraang will kill anyone. It's just going to happen eventually.

Sixth, no 'goofy' mutants. I don't like Pizzaface, very few on here do, so that is one that definitely won't ever show up.

That's what I think it would look like if it was a bit more 'grown-up.'

^I'm with most of this.

I tend to favor shows with long, continuing arcs, depth of character, relationship-building. It kind of drives me nuts when things in the cartoon have to be wrapped up inside a single episode. This would probably open the field for more incidental characters as well, rather than one-shot here and then we'll see you next season.

It doesn't have to be a gore-fest, but some actual wounds and need for healing time would make things more realistic: Fatalities or very critical wounds (like, say, the Donatello thing in the comics)... things you don't just snap back from immediately.

Heavier romance and relationships. I know some folks just want a 100% action show, but to me, that's dull and kind of contrived... not real enough. (And it's one reason 2k3 drives me nuts...) Plus more sexuality... 'cause let's face it, the guys are going through the most hormonally amped-up time of their lives and they have some issues to work out regarding that.

Aaaand this is why I'm writing fanfic. ;p

[Tarris Vaal]

Heavier romance and relationships. I know some folks just want a 100% action show, but to me, that's dull and kind of contrived... not real enough. (And it's one reason 2k3 drives me nuts...) Plus more sexuality... 'cause let's face it, the guys are going through the most hormonally amped-up time of their lives and they have some issues to work out regarding that.

I think that's very fair comment. It would be an important thing to include - You wouldn't need to have actual sexual relationships, gay relationships or anything like that necessarily (God knows Torchwood felt the need to dive into those just to prove it was 'edgy adult Dr Who' and it just got painful to watch because of it); but crushes, heartbreak, falling in love and the consequences of those things are all areas that should be looked into. They are all important parts of growing up after all.

Borrowing from the idea i mentioned before, that could be where Raph and Don have their 'edge'. Raph could be presented as struggling with balancing love and jealousy (as a related area to his temper), whilst Donatello could struggle with love and heartbreak or social exile. In theory you could also look into the social consequences of them seeking a human partner (April as an obvious example) or another mutant (Alopex? Mona Lisa?) and how that relationship can survive, cope and function.

Definitely an area to have anyway, second to the action I think, but still important.

[Wolfie65]

In some ways, the current Nick toon version is quite possibly the most 'adult' since the original comics. The story lines are fairly complex, the character development better than most live action movies or TV shows, the tone relatively 'dark', especially if we keep in mind that the studio considers this a kids' show.
Cartoon characters cannot age, especially not if being Teenagers is part of what makes them what they are, they must exist in a timeless bubble, forever 16. Not bad 't'all, if you think about it.......(must find that bubble.....)
There would have to be more serious consequences to the violence, what is the point of hacking someone into 75 pieces, covering them in acid and throwing them down a cosmic worm hole, if they're just going to be back 3 episodes down the road no matter what?
Not sure how I feel about April being a teen - or Karai, for that matter. Part of me likes the idea and part of me doesn't. Then, there's of course the Megan Fox option......:D

[Leofan26]

4Kids series as about as adult ish as we are going to get with the turtles, it had dark moments and gruesome fights every now and than such as Leo's fights with Karai when she stabbed him in his shell driving him to become this revenge seeking turtle to the point of even attacking his master. It even had on going arcs along with April / Casey being an official couple ( Forget how old they were in that series, teens? ) That's about as good as will get.

[Meliwen]

In light of how a more mature show could have more focus as a coming of age show, would you kill off Splinter in order to help that idea along? I could see it happening. Not too early that we don't get enough of Splinter's character, and not too late in the show that we don't see the turtles continuing on without him and all the hurdles that come with it.

Leo would really have to step up as leader.
Raph would have some issues with that until Leo finds his feet. Perhaps go AWOL. (Nightwatcher? Shredder Raph?)
Donnie could feel responsible for Splinter and focus more on his technology, to his detriment, to fix things like he did in BTTS.
Mikey can be the one to bring everyone back together and show how he's the heart of the team.

[TigerClaw]

"Splinter is coming."
Funny you say that cause.

Its an actual T-Shirt.

http://shutupandtakemymoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/splinter-is-coming.jpg

An adult TMNT show, If that were to happen, It would have to be on HBO, cause it would be violent and bloody.

[Tarris Vaal]

Want that shirt....

Quoted from Meliwen
In light of how a more mature show could have more focus as a coming of age show, would you kill off Splinter in order to help that idea along? I could see it happening. Not too early that we don't get enough of Splinter's character, and not too late in the show that we don't see the turtles continuing on without him and all the hurdles that come with it.

Leo would really have to step up as leader.
Raph would have some issues with that until Leo finds his feet. Perhaps go AWOL. (Nightwatcher? Shredder Raph?)
Donnie could feel responsible for Splinter and focus more on his technology, to his detriment, to fix things like he did in BTTS.
Mikey can be the one to bring everyone back together and show how he's the heart of the team.

Its definitely something that would have to be worked into an adult aimed show I think, but would likely be something you'd see worked into second season, possibly third.

And yes, have to agree with Tigerclaw - HBO would be a good partner with Nick for something like that :) Though Netflix as well potentially?

[RenetFan]

I can imagine in ten or twenty years an animated series based on the original comics, with first appearance comic book turtles. The animation style would look like some of the direct to video DC Comics films.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

funny you say that cause.

Its an actual t-shirt.

http://shutupandtakemymoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/splinter-is-coming.jpg

an adult tmnt show, if that were to happen, it would have to be on hbo, cause it would be violent and bloody.

i need that shirt.

[RenetFan]

He looks like 4Kids early 2000s Splinter.

[Tarris Vaal]

On a vaguely game of thrones ish related issue - do the TMNT have an undead enemy? I dont recall one - beyond possibly Muckman - and obviously to do an Undead foe justice you would need the show to be more adult themed.

The Squirrelanoids would also obviously fall into this category of being a villain which is massively benefiting from having less pressure to be kid friendly (though the concept is perhaps a little silly). That said; Parasitica, Fungus Humungous, the Chimera and the Creep might all come out a lot better with less concerns of blood or death involved.

Thoughts? What TMNT villains do you think would benefit most from a higher age rating?

[victory_angel]

On a vaguely game of thrones ish related issue - do the TMNT have an undead enemy? I dont recall one - beyond possibly Muckman - and obviously to do an Undead foe justice you would need the show to be more adult themed.

The Squirrelanoids would also obviously fall into this category of being a villain which is massively benefiting from having less pressure to be kid friendly (though the concept is perhaps a little silly). That said; Parasitica, Fungus Humungous, the Chimera and the Creep might all come out a lot better with less concerns of blood or death involved.

Thoughts? What TMNT villains do you think would benefit most from a higher age rating?

There was tengu shredder in the 2k3 version he's undead

[shredder orokusaki]

Another show aimed at adults will be something like the 2003 series or the IDW comics. But this will not happen on Nickeldeon because unfortunately they are too kid friendly. Our only hope for a adult aimed show is only if nickelodeon sells tmnt to another company to someone who dont cares so much about stupid little kids.

[Fang Wolf]

Another show aimed at adults will be something like the 2003 series or the IDW comics. But this will not happen on Nickeldeon because unfortunately they are too kid friendly. Our only hope for a adult aimed show is only if nickelodeon sells tmnt to another company to someone who dont cares so much about stupid little kids.

I Agree...:tsmile:
more dark och blood - Like IDW comics..

[Luckyday]

On a vaguely game of thrones ish related issue - do the TMNT have an undead enemy? I dont recall one - beyond possibly Muckman - and obviously to do an Undead foe justice you would need the show to be more adult themed.

The Squirrelanoids would also obviously fall into this category of being a villain which is massively benefiting from having less pressure to be kid friendly (though the concept is perhaps a little silly). That said; Parasitica, Fungus Humungous, the Chimera and the Creep might all come out a lot better with less concerns of blood or death involved.

Thoughts? What TMNT villains do you think would benefit most from a higher age rating?

Base on the last episode that he appeared in, definitely the Rat King, with showing more emphasis on the psychology horror on poor Splinter and his rat human hybrid experiments.

Slash would be another great choice since a higher rating can enable writers to focus on the dark side of Raph with Slash being the embodiment of his inner demon, although I really do like this not so brooding, and can even crack a smile ever once in a while version of Raphael.

In fact, in a different version of TMNT, I would like Raph and Mikey to trade places in which Raph being sort of treated like the youngest brother. That could be reason why he feels the need be such a tough guy or else no one will take him seriously. The core personalities will remain the same but this small difference can add a whole new dimension to their characters!

[Werecat]

...I would like Raph and Mikey to trade places in which Raph being sort of treated like the youngest brother. That could be reason why he feels the need be such a tough guy or else no one will take him seriously. The core personalities will remain the same but this small difference can add a whole new dimension to their characters!
Did you get your psychology book out of a dumpster? Does it still have guck on it? Or is that ol' outdated shizz written by some cray cray guy? I got my book from a trash can, tis less dirty.

'cause gurl that reason for teh tough guy attitude is so not realistic or totes plausible, it is trivial.
It is hard to say but most peeps who are troubled or legit cray cray is due to a chemical imbalance, genetics, or environmental variables.

It is more plausible that the mutation process makes their body and mind evolution impressionable to environmental variables. Evolution/mutation basically makes the creature evolve to be more efficient and powerful in their prefered specialization. Splinter trained the turtles to be killers, they have to be in order to kill Shredder. Maybe Splinter trained Raphael more when it came to killing things, he prolly tried training him like how a police officer trains a germen shepherd. Or maybe Raphael had other negative influences when he was younger. The 'cause for Raphael's rage has to be more complex than a trivial one.

Edit: The impressionable stage, from the mutation, could also be the 'cause for Donny's smarts as well.

Edit 2 1/2: Also it would be totes cool if they made a more mature version. I would love to see Raphael go berserk again, I really enjoy the Jekyll and Hyde story from him.

[Metalwolf]

Another show aimed at adults will be something like the 2003 series or the IDW comics. But this will not happen on Nickeldeon because unfortunately they are too kid friendly. Our only hope for a adult aimed show is only if nickelodeon sells tmnt to another company to someone who dont cares so much about stupid little kids.I think a lot of people seem to agree.

The problem right now is that there seems to be a slight unwillingness to make it something other then a kiddy franchise, even though it doesn't have to be a kiddy franchise and it can change out of it. A lot of the issue comes from new/recent parents wanting stuff to be about/for their kids, especially when they've watched the show themselves as kids and/or think kids are their world and should be uniquely catered to.

What happens after a while is that the show gets 'stuck' in a kid demographic ghetto. There is barely any growth in ideas because everything has to be kept with kids in mind, and stuff like stories or characters can't have too dark a theme or blood lest parents complain.

Plus what also is wrong is that the whole thing is built on toys. It doesn't matter if the show is crappy (as some have found out upon a re-watching as adults) if the toys sell. This is great for profit margins, but that's it. Also, some of these toys are built in China, where they don't have as strong of environmental and human rights laws as we do, so the toys are either painted with lead-containing paint at times or they are built in polluted and overcrowded conditions, where the workers live in over crowded dorms and inhale tons of ugly chemicals at work but it's either this or live with no money.

These are why I hate the 'It's for the kiddies' mentality.

[jenna]

I think a lot of people seem to agree.

The problem right now is that there seems to be a slight unwillingness to make it something other then a kiddy franchise, even though it doesn't have to be a kiddy franchise and it can change out of it. A lot of the issue comes from new/recent parents wanting stuff to be about/for their kids, especially when they've watched the show themselves as kids and/or think kids are their world and should be uniquely catered to.

What happens after a while is that the show gets 'stuck' in a kid demographic ghetto. There is barely any growth in ideas because everything has to be kept with kids in mind, and stuff like stories or characters can't have too dark a theme or blood lest parents complain.

Plus what also is wrong is that the whole thing is built on toys. It doesn't matter if the show is crappy (as some have found out upon a re-watching as adults) if the toys sell. This is great for profit margins, but that's it. Also, some of these toys are built in China, where they don't have as strong of environmental and human rights laws as we do, so the toys are either painted with lead-containing paint at times or they are built in polluted and overcrowded conditions, where the workers live in over crowded dorms and inhale tons of ugly chemicals at work but it's either this or live with no money.

These are why I hate the 'It's for the kiddies' mentality.

This. Completely this. It's ironic that even Transformers, a far more absurd concept, which started as a toy line is somehow getting a more adult treatment than Turtles, which started as a bloody, violent comic book.

An adult-geared show would not have to cater to short attention spans, so on that token alone the series could open up to more expansive plot lines and characters arcs. Oh god, I'd pay serious money to see such a series.

[Tarris Vaal]

Thats one of the reasons I'm genuinely curious!

Metalwolf is right on the money! This is a violent comic book turned into a kids show and seemingly stuck there. I wouldn't necessarily want it to rival franchises like Saw or Aliens for bloodlust and 'for adults' mentality, but I think just increasing it to match with franchises like Xmen would be a good start.

Pitching it around the same demographic as Batman (almost any post Batman/Robin iteration) would be genuinely interesting.
More, even though those who have mentioned it are completely right to say that the backbone of the franchise is rooted in making toys, it has enough age to it now, and enough adult fans (either literally adults who failed to grow up/having a nostalgia attack or those who grew up with the older series and remember it even if they don't follow now) to justify supporting an adult aimed show.

Look at Flash, Arrow and Daredevil. All of those are pitched at higher demographics and not one of those I would have said has the equivalent number of fans or fame. Honestly I would have said the same of Game of Thrones when it first started.

Shows like those prove it can be done. Even before then - Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, even BUFFY can be considered more adult than Turtles! Yet all of those are well regarded scifi/fantasy series with strong followings. Turtles is a strong franchise with a very strong following and still hasn't had an adult series equivalent! Its almost infuriating! A feeling made all the worse by the way the Nicktoons and 2003 shows seem to skirt the edges of adult themes now and again - they could so easily be nudged that little bit further, but they shy away again at the last moment!

:oops:

Ok, rant over, sorry guys :)

Anyway, if you had a more adult show, would you go for the same plot strands as most of the kids shows?

Nicktoons clearly went all out for a Kraang themed scifi show

2003 went a similar scifi route

IDW comics has dabbled in the mystical side of the franchise.

All three of those more recent iterations have worked with the Foot as a primary villain (fair enough). Would you expect the same, or would other villains take more prominence?

Plus, if the tone of the show followed closer to Firefly or Buffy, with a deliberate nod to the more teenage angst/drama side of things, would that work as well?

[victory_angel]

Same as it never was is a plot line that can be taken in an adult direction over the course of a season.

For example it can start with all the Turtles being sent across time and space. Or maybe just Donnie, and when the brothers are found and returned he doesn't want to talk about what he experienced though it's clear whatever he encountered has disturbed him.

At first it starts out as a series of nightmares. The bad kind where you wake up screaming which wakes the others up. Donnie however insists they were just some stupid dreams and they don't mean anything. But Leo and Raph know Donnie is hiding something. Raph is suggesting they have a confrontation, but Leo feels they shouldn't pressure their brother into revealing what he experienced. So instead he feels they should have patience and let Donnie tell them whats going on when he's ready.

Over the next several weeks Donnie is obsessively work on the security system or in his lab creating what resemble robotic eyes and limbs. And when he's not doing that he's throwing himself into training a lot more then usual.

He hardly sleeps. For food he supplements with Coffee and Protein bars. And otherwise he only eats when his brothers bring actual food to the lab and insist on staying put until he has finished his plate. And even then they get complaints of "I don't have time for this!" or "Why do you guys have to waste my time?"

He avoids his brothers and when they try to get him to come out and have some interaction with them (out side morning training or meal observance) or they need something from him. Donnie would insist he's too busy or he doesn't have time.

During battles however he is distracted partially because of the lack of proper nutrition, lack of proper sleep, and constant worry of "Is this the day I disappear?"

Eventually Donnie stops going with them on missions and patrol saying he's far to busy and until he feels he's satisfied with the security measures he can't join them. And he even turns his phone off so he won't be distracted by that. One such time his brothers are in trouble during a mission. Knowing Donnie is impossible to contact they contact Splinter instead. Splinter rushes to the lab and tells Donnie this childishness must end because his brothers are in danger and if he doesn't act then all his efforts to protect their family would be for not.

Donnie hurries to the battle and helps save the day, but he collapses soon afterwards because of exhaustion. The others carry him home, when he awakens he's well rested and he learns that each of his brothers as well as his father have been taking turns watching over him as he slept. Splinter is with him as he wakes up.

[T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!]

I honestly consider this show as "adult" as it needs to be. The violence is really cool and they throw in enough blasts from the past and certain older movie references to make it more accessible for adults. This show sorta makes me think of how Pixar would do TMNT. I love it for that reason.

[Foombamaroom]

An adult TMNT show would basically be IDW, to be honest. Just with a little more violence and action to it. Remember, adult doesn't necessarily mean it has bloody and violent, with sex and swearing, it just means that the show would be able to handle those themes.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

An adult TMNT show would basically be IDW, to be honest. Just with a little more violence and action to it. Remember, adult doesn't necessarily mean it has bloody and violent, with sex and swearing, it just means that the show would be able to handle those themes.

Exactly. Just a little more violence and action, and the Turtles not worrying about killing Foot ninja.

Dark Leo would've totally killed Victor the Savate ninja if it weren't for freakin' Nick. :tlol:

[DigificWriter]

I honestly consider this show as "adult" as it needs to be.

Agreed.

The thing that I love about this series is that it's taken everything that was great about the 1980s/1990s series and blended it with modern storytelling sensibilities to create something that, like shows such as Gargoyles and Batman: The Animated Series before it, can appeal to both children and adults in equal measure.

[Tarris Vaal]

Except that it doesnt

Just look at the criticism thread. Admittedly a lot of that can be put down to nitpicking and general whinging, but there are a lot of valid points in there - and a lot of them come from the fact that this show appeals to adult fans, but doesn't really cater to them.

The plot amnesia,
The wasted plot threads
The mishandled romantic subplots
The pigeon holing of the minor villains
The unnecessary dragging out of certain character arcs


Gargoyles and Batman are both good examples, but both series had characters and plot arcs that obviously were consistently developing and consistently followed from one to the next. Avatar was another good example of how to do it.
Turtles does have this frustrating tendency to set up a good idea and good characters, and then somehow forget about them. We love the show for its ideas and characters, but its wall punchingly frustrating when it neglects them!

Look at Slash for example - A great set up of a dark mirror to Raph. Next episode he appears in he's already questioning his role as a villain. By the following he's a good guy and weirdly the two turtles who he crushed mercilessly are seemingly fine with working with him (and oddly its the one turtle who didn't really get destroyed by him who is untrusting of his motives...)

Xever is another one. Xever and Bradford used to have back story and rivalry. It was an interesting alternative dynamic and its almost completely forgotten.

Raph and Mikey tend to get repeating themes for their plot lines without really building on whats gone on before.

Then there is the romantic subplots - specifically around April - which could have been genuinely quite interesting to deal with but feels like they're scared to take any further steps with it - yet want to drag out the 'will they/won't they' question as long as possible.



I would like to think that you could make a version of the Turtles which is less fearful of breaking out of its own mold and expanding the characters beyond their starting points.
I suspect that just allowing the Turtles alone to evolve and change from where they start would at once solve a lot of the issues with the current versions of the show being described as 'for kids'

[DigificWriter]

Except that it doesnt

Just look at the criticism thread. Admittedly a lot of that can be put down to nitpicking and general whinging, but there are a lot of valid points in there - and a lot of them come from the fact that this show appeals to adult fans, but doesn't really cater to them.

The plot amnesia,
The wasted plot threads
The mishandled romantic subplots
The pigeon holing of the minor villains
The unnecessary dragging out of certain character arcs


Gargoyles and Batman are both good examples, but both series had characters and plot arcs that obviously were consistently developing and consistently followed from one to the next. Avatar was another good example of how to do it.
Turtles does have this frustrating tendency to set up a good idea and good characters, and then somehow forget about them. We love the show for its ideas and characters, but its wall punchingly frustrating when it neglects them!

Look at Slash for example - A great set up of a dark mirror to Raph. Next episode he appears in he's already questioning his role as a villain. By the following he's a good guy and weirdly the two turtles who he crushed mercilessly are seemingly fine with working with him (and oddly its the one turtle who didn't really get destroyed by him who is untrusting of his motives...)

Xever is another one. Xever and Bradford used to have back story and rivalry. It was an interesting alternative dynamic and its almost completely forgotten.

Raph and Mikey tend to get repeating themes for their plot lines without really building on whats gone on before.

Then there is the romantic subplots - specifically around April - which could have been genuinely quite interesting to deal with but feels like they're scared to take any further steps with it - yet want to drag out the 'will they/won't they' question as long as possible.

I would like to think that you could make a version of the Turtles which is less fearful of breaking out of its own mold and expanding the characters beyond their starting points.
I suspect that just allowing the Turtles alone to evolve and change from where they start would at once solve a lot of the issues with the current versions of the show being described as 'for kids'

None of that matches my impressions of the series AT ALL.

[Tarris Vaal]

Perhaps its just me then :)

But i think a lot of Nicks problems stem from the need to follow the episodic format common to children's programs.

Don't get me wrong, there IS an overarching plot there certainly, but the characters within that plot rarely seem to change much, as though the only development they are allowed to do has to be within the episode. And then is largely forgotten by the next one.

Again this is perhaps a little unfair - Karai and April have both undergone noticeable changes in attitude, and Leo has seemed to grow more confident - but the problem I find tends to lie in Don, Raph and Mikey, who seem to really struggle to maintain momentum to develop. And they aren't the only ones...

[DigificWriter]

Perhaps its just me then :)

But i think a lot of Nicks problems stem from the need to follow the episodic format common to children's programs.

Don't get me wrong, there IS an overarching plot there certainly, but the characters within that plot rarely seem to change much, as though the only development they are allowed to do has to be within the episode. And then is largely forgotten by the next one.

Again this is perhaps a little unfair - Karai and April have both undergone noticeable changes in attitude, and Leo has seemed to grow more confident - but the problem I find tends to lie in Don, Raph and Mikey, who seem to really struggle to maintain momentum to develop. And they aren't the only ones...

I'm only through TCRI, but I've not noticed any deficiencies in the way in which we've seen the Turtles themselves characterized thus far, so any perceived issues on that front may be exactly that.

[Meliwen]

I'm only through TCRI, but I've not noticed any deficiencies in the way in which we've seen the Turtles themselves characterized thus far, so any perceived issues on that front may be exactly that.
To be fair, you're only on episode 17 out of 70 aired so far. I liked how the first season handled the plot and the turtles themselves as well, but it's in the later episodes that you may start to see a trend.

I agree with Tarris Vaal. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good show, but it does feel like a lot of characters get dropped, or at least the show doesn't follow through with them. The show has an overarching plot, and while I understand that it likes to keep its episodic nature, that fact that it does have an ongoing plot to me means that, in some way, the characters should grow with it. Leo grows alongside the plot really well. Donnie does to some extent. But at 70 episodes in, Raph and Mikey feel really stagnant.

I think if the turtles had a show with the same tone as ATLA or LoK, it would be perfect for them. It can keep it's fun (which I never want to see them lose), yet still handle the tougher aspects of the show and keep a well defined, progessing plot.

[Tarris Vaal]

That's why I'm wondering if a slight tonal nudge is whats really required. It doesn't need to be outright dark or lose sight of its fun roots - Nick is generally very good at keeping balance for that kind of thing - It just feels that the show is sometimes ham strung by its own need to cater to this perceived 'simplicity' for the sake of the kids.

Its not like kids cant handle it. But if the show ever gets a new iteration in future, I hope it should aim its demographic a little higher - just to give it that level of freedom.

[Luckyday]

That's why I'm wondering if a slight tonal nudge is whats really required. It doesn't need to be outright dark or lose sight of its fun roots - Nick is generally very good at keeping balance for that kind of thing - It just feels that the show is sometimes ham strung by its own need to cater to this perceived 'simplicity' for the sake of the kids.

Its not like kids cant handle it. But if the show ever gets a new iteration in future, I hope it should aim its demographic a little higher - just to give it that level of freedom.

In that case, TV-PG rating would be perfect for this show. ;)

[victory_angel]

I'd say something close to the effect of the recent Pixar Movie, Inside Out.

Something that sort of takes you on a journey that is also an emotional rollercoaster, and while it is something that should be enjoyed by the entire family. It has a level that reaches the adults more then the kids.

[OrangeNinja1987]

I would love to see some a little more dark and gritty, but with still the classic TMNT humor. My dream is to see a TMNT show aimed at late teens/adults with CGI/costumed actor turtles (both since good CGI is expensive for TV and could be used just to improve on the costumes' that are already there).
Basically, while I love the Nick show, this show wouldn't share its problems. It could have darker themes, more villain focus, better writing, and a strong overarching plot. I think there would be enough adult TMNT fans and teens who would be interested, and it could make its merchandising profit where other older-demographic shows make theirs - action figures, posters, collectables, etc.

[jenna]

I would love to see some a little more dark and gritty, but with still the classic TMNT humor. My dream is to see a TMNT show aimed at late teens/adults with CGI/costumed actor turtles (both since good CGI is expensive for TV and could be used just to improve on the costumes' that are already there).
Basically, while I love the Nick show, this show wouldn't share its problems. It could have darker themes, more villain focus, better writing, and a strong overarching plot. I think there would be enough adult TMNT fans and teens who would be interested, and it could make its merchandising profit where other older-demographic shows make theirs - action figures, posters, collectables, etc.

Whilst I don't feel that costumes are really appropriate in this day and age, I DO agree with everything else you've said here. I would really love to see this style of series. And in this Amazon Prime / Netflix culture I do wonder if another incarnation of the TMNT with a more adult audience in mind is so unlikely. Maybe in a few years / decades when the cost of cgi has come down.

Surely there must be someone out there who recognises there's a real market for this.


One of my favourite aspects of TMNT has always been the beauty of the martial arts. Many incarnations have done this well initially but have had to tone it down over time, which is a shame. An adult show would be able to explore the martial arts side a bit more. It doesn't have to be gruesome but it could go that bit further.

But the central theme of TMNT is and has always been loss and vengeance; closely followed by themes of humanity. A show that is not afraid to challenge the audience with questions on what it means to have humanity would be so interesting. And "interesting" is acceptable over "entertaining" with a more mature audience. For example, human beings like Saki, Stockman and Bishop who act in a way that is inhuman, juxtaposed with the "humanity" of creatures who could be seen as monsters. 2k3, Nick, even the OT have touched on this, but I'd love to see it really explored.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

But the central theme of TMNT is and has always been loss and vengeance; closely followed by themes of humanity. A show that is not afraid to challenge the audience with questions on what it means to have humanity would be so interesting. And "interesting" is acceptable over "entertaining" with a more mature audience. For example, human beings like Saki, Stockman and Bishop who act in a way that is inhuman, juxtaposed with the "humanity" of creatures who could be seen as monsters. 2k3, Nick, even the OT have touched on this, but I'd love to see it really explored.

This is a theme I want to see in a TMNT show: how human are the turtles? They can think and love and feel, but at the same time they're so different and strange... and all the turtles could feel differently on the issue. Mikey could view himself as human but constantly set himself up for disappointment and rejection in the real world. Raph could have no qualms about injuring opponents since it's not like he's hurting members of his own species. Leo could see himself as walking the line between man and monster, and being fully aware of how to control his stance on that line. Don could be in the same position as Leo, but be very conflicted inside over whether he really has a place in the world of man at all. Holy ****, there's all your character development for the whole series!

I don't want an adult-aimed show to necessarily be gritty and dark or whatever, I want it to be smartly written with deep characters and strong plotlines.

[Tarris Vaal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenna View Post
But the central theme of TMNT is and has always been loss and vengeance; closely followed by themes of humanity. A show that is not afraid to challenge the audience with questions on what it means to have humanity would be so interesting. And "interesting" is acceptable over "entertaining" with a more mature audience. For example, human beings like Saki, Stockman and Bishop who act in a way that is inhuman, juxtaposed with the "humanity" of creatures who could be seen as monsters. 2k3, Nick, even the OT have touched on this, but I'd love to see it really explored.
This is a theme I want to see in a TMNT show: how human are the turtles? They can think and love and feel, but at the same time they're so different and strange... and all the turtles could feel differently on the issue. Mikey could view himself as human but constantly set himself up for disappointment and rejection in the real world. Raph could have no qualms about injuring opponents since it's not like he's hurting members of his own species. Leo could see himself as walking the line between man and monster, and being fully aware of how to control his stance on that line. Don could be in the same position as Leo, but be very conflicted inside over whether he really has a place in the world of man at all. Holy ****, there's all your character development for the whole series!

I don't want an adult-aimed show to necessarily be gritty and dark or whatever, I want it to be smartly written with deep characters and strong plotlines.

I think this neatly sums up a lot of what would make a Nick inspired adult themed show work - Nail on the head guys! :)

You could make the show grittier and darker - at least in places - but I think to make it a TMNT show it has to have a sense of humour - even a sense of parody - at times to balance that grittiness out.

[jenna]

I've just watched the first two episodes of the new(ish) Daredevil series on Netflix for the first time, and all I could think all the way through was how well its tone and atmosphere and target audience would suit an adult-pitched TMNT series.

It's my perfect TMNT show... just without the TMNT! :D If only.....