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View Full Version : No magic and aliens in the first two movies


TurtleFan2012
05-31-2015, 05:16 PM
You guys think leaving out aliens and fantasy elements was a good thing?

To be honest I'm glad they removed the utrom twist from TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze. I like how everything is set in the "real world" (ignoring the whole mutagen thing). The first movie teaches kids to stay out of trouble and not join gangs.

CyberCubed
05-31-2015, 11:19 PM
Most comic book films tend to be relatively grounded so they can appeal to a mass audience. Put all this sci-fi stuff in right off the bat and you'll alienate casuals.

They usually save that stuff for sequels.

Candy Kappa
06-01-2015, 12:28 AM
Splinter appearing in the fireplace during the "ninja meditation" was not magic?

TigerClaw
06-01-2015, 06:11 AM
You guys think leaving out aliens and fantasy elements was a good thing?

To be honest I'm glad they removed the utrom twist from TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze. I like how everything is set in the "real world" (ignoring the whole mutagen thing). The first movie teaches kids to stay out of trouble and not join gangs.
The Magic and Alien stuff are a staple of the comics, Fortunately the sequel that's currently filming, Will have Krang in it, Maybe they left it out of Secret of the Ooze, Due to the budget.

Shark_Blade
06-01-2015, 06:49 AM
Yes the over abundance of those two elements made 2k3 cheesy, bad and unenjoyable imo.

Goodbye bad stuff.

ProactiveMan
06-01-2015, 07:35 PM
The first movie teaches kids to stay out of trouble and not join gangs.

Nice and simple. I was talking to someone at work about this last week. 2014 Shredder has this crazy plan about gassing the city from the roof of a skyscraper, then curing them with alien goo for some reason. 1990 Shredder just wants to steal some TVs. That's something we can all relate to.

plastroncafe
06-01-2015, 09:41 PM
Yes. We shouldn't put in any Science Fiction elements because that'll drive people away.

Like...a guy building a mech out of scraps in a cave.
Or scientists making a serum that would turn a chronically ill guy into a super soldier.
Or aliens from other dimensions that wield magically powered hammers.
And you know what movie tanked at the box office that no one liked? That one with the talking raccoon and tree.

We all know aliens and science fiction do not make money at the box office.

TigerClaw
06-01-2015, 09:56 PM
Yes. We shouldn't put in any Science Fiction elements because that'll drive people away.

Like...a guy building a mech out of scraps in a cave.
Or scientists making a serum that would turn a chronically ill guy into a super soldier.
Or aliens from other dimensions that wield magically powered hammers.
And you know what movie tanked at the box office that no one liked? That one with the talking raccoon and tree.

We all know aliens and science fiction do not make money at the box office.
I see what you did there.

And yeah, Science Fiction is really popular, It will get people to the theater, And TMNT had its share of Scifi, and I wanna see that explored in the new movies.

Leo656
06-01-2015, 10:01 PM
This is what I mean when I get all "Elitist" and point out the Very True Fact that people in general do NOT have any idea what they really want. They SAY they like one thing, but in truth they like something different. They contradict themselves *constantly*. Especially TMNT fans!

TMNT is a science fiction story. Period. The first issue, maybe not so much, but the Very Next Story involved a mad scientist trying to take over the city with an army of killer robots. And like 5 minutes after THAT, you had alien dinosaurs and a guy who put his consciousness into a robot body. And THEN you have demons, time travel, "dreamscapes", parallel realities... I could go ON and ON, all the way into Vol. 4... not to MENTION, the entire story hinges on the idea that some chemical refuse could co-mingle and alter a creature's DNA, bone and organ structure, and give them sentience and speech. Which is f***ing stupidly impossible!

Do the math. TMNT is a "gritty tale of two warring ninja clans, an angsty and realistic tale of street-level warfare", like, 25% of the time. The OTHER 75% of the time, it's a wacky showcase of sci-fi "What-the-F***-ery". Thus, TMNT is, for the MOST part, a science fiction story.

People missed that? Really? You let that really important part of that thing you "love" go over your heads entirely? WOW. Read more.

TigerClaw
06-01-2015, 10:07 PM
This is what I mean when I get all "Elitist" and point out the Very True Fact that people in general do NOT have any idea what they really want. They SAY they like one thing, but in truth they like something different. They contradict themselves *constantly*. Especially TMNT fans!

TMNT is a science fiction story. Period. The first issue, maybe not so much, but the Very Next Story involved a mad scientist trying to take over the city with an army of killer robots. And like 5 minutes after THAT, you had alien dinosaurs and a guy who put his consciousness into a robot body. And THEN you have demons, time travel, "dreamscapes", parallel realities... I could go ON and ON, all the way into Vol. 4... not to MENTION, the entire story hinges on the idea that some chemical refuse could co-mingle and alter a creature's DNA, bone and organ structure, and give them sentience and speech. Which is f***ing stupidly impossible!

Do the math. TMNT is a "gritty tale of two warring ninja clans, an angsty and realistic tale of street-level warfare", like, 25% of the time. The OTHER 75% of the time, it's a wacky showcase of sci-fi "What-the-F***-ery". Thus, TMNT is, for the MOST part, a science fiction story.

People missed that? Really? You let that really important part of that thing you "love" go over your heads entirely? WOW. Read more.
Indeed, TMNT is very much a Scifi story, It was scifi to begin with, when you account for the fact, That the Ooze came from aliens.

JonesyKitty
06-01-2015, 10:09 PM
Nice and simple. I was talking to someone at work about this last week. 2014 Shredder has this crazy plan about gassing the city from the roof of a skyscraper, then curing them with alien goo for some reason. 1990 Shredder just wants to steal some TVs. That's something we can all relate to.

Hahaha I absolutely love the way you put that:tlol:

Leo656
06-01-2015, 10:17 PM
Indeed, TMNT is very much a Scifi story, It was scifi to begin with, when you account for the fact, That the Ooze came from aliens.

Even in the versions where it's not, and it's just some chemical mess, it's just as much science-fiction.

I kinda prefer the movies *don't* have the Ooze be of alien origin, personally, as I think movies need to be kind of more "grounded" than other versions like cartoons or comics, where the suspension of disbelief is a little greater by default. But even simply having it be lab waste and the entire scenario completely accidental, it's still science fiction enough to call it that.

I just think the degree to which it's played up should vary between movies, cartoons, comics, etc.

Wildcat
06-01-2015, 10:40 PM
Nice and simple. I was talking to someone at work about this last week. 2014 Shredder has this crazy plan about gassing the city from the roof of a skyscraper, then curing them with alien goo for some reason. 1990 Shredder just wants to steal some TVs. That's something we can all relate to.Doug Walker mentions this in his review. How neither Shredder plans makes sense.

But I think in 2014 his plan is to take over NY, and maybe other places, by having the only cure he can hold it over everyone...like Ill cure you but if you don't follow me I still have the toxic gas. Like a dictator. That's how I took it anyway.

I'm fine with waiting for utroms and such for a sequel.

MsMarvelDuckie
06-01-2015, 10:55 PM
Nah, he was just going to use the cure like a carrot on a stick to get "stupid rich". Or Sacks was, anyway. Shredder just wanted to rule the city from behind the scenes. I mean, he had his adopted "son" (How old was he when he adopted Sack, anyway??!!) supplying tech and funds to help the police FIGHT his own clan! That's ballsy. And pretty stupid, if ya think about it. They were BOUND to figure that out sooner or later- like, I dunno, maybe when they saw the deadly gas coming out of Sacks' building?? :teek::trolleye:

Wildcat
06-01-2015, 11:01 PM
Ya they wanted to get rich but I still think they would have liked to rule over the public, Shredder anyway. If their plan went through they could have done so. Just for money doesn't make sense.

MsMarvelDuckie
06-02-2015, 12:48 AM
Why not? Isn't that what MOST corrupt businessmen are after? Money makes the world go 'round, after all, and with ENOUGH of it, you can do- well, darn near anything you want. That's why so many rich people get into SOOO much more trouble than the average Joe. They have stupid amounts of money, and NO idea what to do with it/themselves. It just breeds bad/dumb ideas and arrogance, greed, and an attitude hat the rules no longer apply. (and they can usually get away with whatever, because they just have to throw money at their problems to make them go away.)

Candy Kappa
06-02-2015, 12:58 AM
It's been a while since I've seen this movie, but wasn't Shredder's motives that he wanted to bring back the Foot from being a forgotten thing off the past, return to the glory days?

Wildcat
06-02-2015, 01:06 AM
@MsMarvelDuckie, They were already rich. I understand some people just want as much money as possible for the sake of it, "stupid rich", but it makes more sense for at least Shredder to want to rule over the public...it's more evil villain-y.

Money doesn't make you invincible physically speaking. Not everyone would care about his money. The gas and cure gives him more power over everyone.

Andrew NDB
06-02-2015, 01:17 AM
You guys think leaving out aliens and fantasy elements was a good thing?

To be honest I'm glad they removed the utrom twist from TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze. I like how everything is set in the "real world" (ignoring the whole mutagen thing). The first movie teaches kids to stay out of trouble and not join gangs.

I think the second movie had far, far worse and more far-reaching problems than any of that working against it.

CyberCubed
06-02-2015, 01:26 AM
Any TMNT movie that goes full sci-fi will bomb immediately.

Putting in the Utroms and Triceratons and doing the Turtles in Space arc from Mirage would utterly fail on the big-screen. It would be seen as some bad Star Wars/Star Trek ripoff...which it already kinda was.

plastroncafe
06-02-2015, 09:51 AM
We had one of those, and it didn't.
The Bay Turtle movie IS SCIENCE FICTION, and in spite of the movie being a wet hot mess on nearly every front, it still made money.
Your point is invalid.

ProactiveMan
06-02-2015, 07:28 PM
They're all sci-fi in one way or another; the protagonists are humanoid turtles for Pete's sake. I guess my opinion is that the first movie works so well, because of the contrast between a weird, sci-fi element, and gritty, heightened reality. That creates tension, and tension is interesting.

That is not to say that it's the only way to do it, and I don't think the 2014 movie added too many sci-fi elements, but if you put the Turtles into Guardians of the Galaxy, they may as well be human, because there is no longer anything intrinsically different about them.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
07-26-2015, 02:15 PM
Even in the versions where it's not, and it's just some chemical mess, it's just as much science-fiction.

I kinda prefer the movies *don't* have the Ooze be of alien origin, personally, as I think movies need to be kind of more "grounded" than other versions like cartoons or comics, where the suspension of disbelief is a little greater by default. But even simply having it be lab waste and the entire scenario completely accidental, it's still science fiction enough to call it that.

I just think the degree to which it's played up should vary between movies, cartoons, comics, etc.

I'm still mad at the original movieverse because the ooze isn't extraterrestrial. Reading the Utroms should appear (remember they're also good ad hiding), it downgraded the entire "Secret" of the ooze thing. The first movie at least seemed like a good start.

Andrew NDB
07-26-2015, 02:32 PM
Most comic book films

Oh, is that what these are?

jenna
07-27-2015, 12:36 PM
This is a good question for debate, but I can't see it ever being resolved, either in favour of sci-fi or against. This is because TMNT is historically multi faceted in its approach. One minute it is all about street level crime, shadowy alleys and rain pounding the asphalt; the next it's about other dimensions, aliens and threats to the world. And to be fair, TMNT has occupied both spaces with reasonable weight. But as a universe it has never really seemed to know what it wants to be - like it is battling a permanent identity crisis.

So it comes down to personal preference and I suppose that with the two angles being so different to each other it is likely to be divisive.

Personally I think that - some blockbusters aside - neighbourhood-level crime is more palatable for a wider audience. Sci-fi is more niche. What I want to see is something grounded in realism, making the turtles the "feature". That's because a grounded setting allows space for addressing themes and ideas which are interesting to me as an individual, such as loneliness and isolation and the struggle for acceptance. That's my favourite angle. I don't care much for sci-fi.

As a result, I've just lost my sh*t over how fantastic the new Daredevil series is. It's everything I've always wanted for TMNT - grounded in reality but with subtle nods to its broader universe. I think it is also quite telling in how successful the series is- appealing to a wider audience than fans of the MCU. Personally I think TMNT powers-that-be could learn a lot from that series.

But that's me.

Very few incarnations have spent much time focusing on the more realistic aspects of TMNT and I think that's because a good section of the fan base enjoy the more other-worldly material - as exhibited in this thread.

As long as there are such extreme tonal changes both between incarnarnations and within them, not least of all the source material, I can't see us ever agreeing that one way is the "right" way.

MsMarvelDuckie
07-31-2015, 12:22 AM
@MsMarvelDuckie, They were already rich. I understand some people just want as much money as possible for the sake of it, "stupid rich", but it makes more sense for at least Shredder to want to rule over the public...it's more evil villain-y.

Money doesn't make you invincible physically speaking. Not everyone would care about his money. The gas and cure gives him more power over everyone.


They were already rich? Really? You don't say. The whole point of the scheme was that they wanted enough money to basically tell the government what to do. Hence the line about the government writing a "blank check" to Sachs and him getting "stupid rich". In other words, he wanted to call the shots by proxy due to having enough money to buy off everybody and their dog. Because we all know that money is what drives politics anyway.

The POINT is, with money, you don't NEED to be "invincible" PHYSICALLY. You can just buy off everyone who annoys or threatens you, or pay someone to make them go away for you. Or just buy your way into the government. Either way, that's a pretty good argument for having stupid amounts of money, if you're an arrogant, power-hungry bad guy. It works for Donald Trump, after all!


They're all sci-fi in one way or another; the protagonists are humanoid turtles for Pete's sake. I guess my opinion is that the first movie works so well, because of the contrast between a weird, sci-fi element, and gritty, heightened reality. That creates tension, and tension is interesting.

That is not to say that it's the only way to do it, and I don't think the 2014 movie added too many sci-fi elements, but if you put the Turtles into Guardians of the Galaxy, they may as well be human, because there is no longer anything intrinsically different about them.


Yeah, I feel the same way. The first movie worked so well because they didn't go whole hog with the sci-fi elements right off the bat.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-02-2015, 12:14 PM
What I want to see in a TMNT movie is most taking place in the shadows for most people (except friends like April, Irma). I don't want to see extraterrestrials launching a full-scale attack bombing towns and people escaping in panic at broad daylight (it may work better in cartoons and comics, if it isn't overused).

However, I want to see the turtles operating in shadows, taking down street gangs, gangsters, Foot Clan and such. If they encounter good Utroms, they're great because they hide in exoskeletons. If they fight Kraang or Triceratons, they do it best against extraterrestrials who in secret try to infiltrate human societies.