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Prowler
06-22-2015, 02:37 PM
So I had a discussion about Nintendo consoles in general earlier today. It started on the SNES, and ended up being about comparing both N64 and the NGC.

Both were pretty great consoles. The best domestic Nintendo consoles after the SNES, imo. But which one was better? Let's compare them, shall we?

N64

- Had better Mario and Zelda games than the GC. Mario 64 is definitely better than Sunshine, even though the latter is still a good game. As for Zelda, N64 had Ocarina and MM. I'd take both of those over Wind Waker or Twillight Princess.

- It was on the market when Rare was at the top of its game. Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Conker's, Diddy Kong Racing, Blast Corps, Jetforce Gemini, etc. Nintendo GameCube didn't have the same luck.

- Had the best Star Fox game;

- Had the best Mario Party games;


GameCube

- Had the best F-Zero game of all time;

- Had a better SSB game than the N64;

- Had Metroid games, unlike the N64;

- Had a better Mario Kart. 64 was fun as hell back in the 90s, but Double Dash is a better game and has aged better as well;

- Had Eternal Darkness and also Resident Evil games(one of them an exclusive, I think) and an esclusive Metal Gear Solid game;

- Had more RPGs. N64 didn't have a game like Tales of Symphonia, per example.


GC aged better than the N64. Although the N64 means more to me nostalgia-wise. That being said, I'd rather play GC nowadays. It's a fairly underrated console and it was the least great domestic Nintendo console, imo.

So what about you?

MikeandRaph87
06-22-2015, 02:44 PM
So I had a discussion about Nintendo consoles in general earlier today. It started on the SNES, and ended up being about comparing both N64 and the NGC.

Both were pretty great consoles. The best domestic Nintendo consoles after the SNES, imo. But which one was better? Let's compare them, shall we?

N64

- Had better Mario and Zelda games than the GC. Mario 64 is definitely better than Sunshine, even though the latter is still a good game. As for Zelda, N64 had Ocarina and MM. I'd take both of those over Wind Waker or Twillight Princess.

- It was on the market when Rare was at the top of its game. Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Conker's, Diddy Kong Racing, Blast Corps, Jetforce Gemini, etc. Nintendo GameCube didn't have the same luck.

- Had the best Star Fox game;

- Had the best Mario Party games;


GameCube

- Had the best F-Zero game of all time;

- Had a better SSB game than the N64;

- Had Metroid games, unlike the N64;

- Had a better Mario Kart. 64 was fun as hell back in the 90s, but Double Dash is a better game and has aged better as well;

- Had Eternal Darkness and also Resident Evil games(one of them an exclusive, I think) and an esclusive Metal Gear Solid game;

- Had more RPGs. N64 didn't have a game like Tales of Symphonia, per example.


GC aged better than the N64. Although the N64 means more to me nostalgia-wise. That being said, I'd rather play GC nowadays. It's a fairly underrated console and it was the least great domestic Nintendo console, imo.

So what about you?

I like any Nintendo system and own both of those systems. I prefer N64 just because it was apart of my childhood and know what a game changer it was for game systems there on pun unintended. I spent countless hours Mario 64, Super Smash Bros., Mario Kart and still play those three to this day on the N64.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 02:46 PM
I like any Nintendo system and own both of those systems. I prefer N64 just because it was apart of my childhood and know what a game changer it was for game systems there on pun unintended. I spent countless hours Mario 64, Super Smash Bros., Mario Kart and still play those three to this day on the N64.
I was around 6-10 years old at the time N64 was on the market, so it has more of a nostalgic effect on me, but I'm not clouded by such effect. Mario 64 and Banjo definitely aged gracefully, though.

CyberCubed
06-22-2015, 02:48 PM
The N64 had the more groundbreaking games for the obvious answer that it was the first 3D Mario, first 3D Zelda, first 3D Mario Kart, first 3D Starfox, etc...and then you had all of Rare's games.

Gamecube had some fantastic games too, most notable Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Wind Waker, Paper Mario 2, F-zero GX, Pikmin 1 and 2, Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, Luigi's Mansion etc. Sunshine wasn't as good as the other 3D Mario's but its still fun. I'm also partial to both Starfox games but I know others don't like 'em as much.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 02:50 PM
The N64 had the more groundbreaking games for the obvious answer that it was the first 3D Mario, first 3D Zelda, first 3D Mario Kart, first 3D Starfox, etc...and then you had all of Rare's games.

Gamecube had some fantastic games too, most notable Smash Bros. Melee, Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Wind Waker, Paper Mario 2, F-zero GX, Pikmin 1 and 2, Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, Luigi's Mansion etc. Sunshine wasn't as good as the other 3D Mario's but its still fun. I'm also partial to both Starfox games but I know others don't like 'em as much.
Which console had the better Zeldas, in your opinion? Also have you played the Mario Golf and Tennis games on both consoles? And both Wave Race games?

MikeandRaph87
06-22-2015, 03:02 PM
I was around 6-10 years old at the time N64 was on the market, so it has more of a nostalgic effect on me, but I'm not clouded by such effect. Mario 64 and Banjo definitely aged gracefully, though.

Half the time I played the Wii I played Gamecube on the Wii. Most of what I played was Rocky especially story mode, the three 2003 era games but after I unlocked TMNT: Arcade Game and Turtles In Time Arcade I played those since I already beat the main game. Its funny that I was playing a Nintendo game on a Gamecube disc on the Wii.:lol:

Prowler
06-22-2015, 03:04 PM
Half the time I played the Wii I played Gamecube on the Wii. Most of what I played was Rocky especially story mode, the three 2003 era games but after I unlocked TMNT: Arcade Game and Turtles In Time Arcade I played those since I already beat the main game. Its funny that I was playing a Nintendo game on a Gamecube disc on the Wii.:lol:
Nothing wrong with playing GC games on the Wii. The day my PS2 Slim finally dies, I'll just get a PS3.

Gunpowder
06-22-2015, 03:18 PM
The N64 was before my time (I wasn't even a year old when it first came out), whereas the Gamecube's lifespan years were nearly identical to my prime childhood years (2001-2006). So I won't vote because it wouldn't be particularly fair. But I've played both consoles strenuously and I've had a better overall experience with the Gamecube.

MikeandRaph87
06-22-2015, 03:21 PM
I got a PlayStation in 1998 but in 2002 it died without warning. The systems with the computer based technology is not going to last like the good old Sega or N64 and others. Nintendo Entertainment System worked only 60 % of the time back in its heyday but the rest of those 20 years or older systems function amazingly well. Of all the games systems I have Nintendo, Sega Genesis, N64, PlayStation, Gamecube, Wii, and upgrade Gameboy as I need to from the bulky B&W to color to Advanced to DS to 2DS.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 03:25 PM
I got a PlayStation in 1998 but in 2002 it died without warning. The systems with the computer based technology is not going to last like the good old Sega or N64 and others. Nintendo Entertainment System worked only 60 % of the time back in its heyday but the rest of those 20 years or older systems function amazingly well.
My SNES still works pretty well 23 years after. And my NES only stopped working around 2009-2010. N64 and GC work great still. However my PS2 Slim, which isn't even 10 years old, has had some problems loading games in the last 3-4 years. The black piece with the lenses goes forward sometimes, which can freeze games or make it unable to load them.

Never had a Microsoft console but heard they tend to break easily. People say it's because Japanese hardware is better than the American one but how does that explain my Sony console issue then? And my Saturn making the screen go apeshit flickering through 4:3 and 16:9 resolution every 3-4 seconds since like 2002? Maybe its Nintendo that has the best hardware overall?

MikeandRaph87
06-22-2015, 03:36 PM
It very well could be the case but remember the rubbing alcohol and crossing her fingers that the game will work and not get messed up? Bubble Bobble hardly ever worked on NES. I mainly played the TMNT games and the first Super Mario Bros. and those worked most of the time. That was the only system I had issues with booting up when I played it regularly. I believed it was the computer reliant consoles of today that just does not have technology that will last over such a long time the older tech has. That was what Gamestop told me about my PlayStation ages ago.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 03:46 PM
No, I only remember everyone believing the myth that blowing into a cartridge would make it work, because when a game didn't boot up, it was assumed that the cartridge simply had some dust in it.

Powder
06-22-2015, 05:03 PM
I never had N64. At the time, I didn't see the appeal all that much, despite being a Nintendo head exclusively to that point. I instead had the Playstation. I love much of it's games now that I've been able to experience them other ways, but for the most part, I'd still take Crash Bandicoot over Super Mario 64. I did have the Gamecube, & it helped to re-solidify my love for Nintendo at the time, & I still play it often (not that there's a Nintendo console I don't play regularly :trazz:). Smash Bros Melee, Wind Waker, need I say more? I mean, I could, but I'm lazy.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 05:47 PM
I never had N64. At the time, I didn't see the appeal all that much, despite being a Nintendo head exclusively to that point. I instead had the Playstation. I love much of it's games now that I've been able to experience them other ways, but for the most part, I'd still take Crash Bandicoot over Super Mario 64. I did have the Gamecube, & it helped to re-solidify my love for Nintendo at the time, & I still play it often (not that there's a Nintendo console I don't play regularly :trazz:). Smash Bros Melee, Wind Waker, need I say more? I mean, I could, but I'm lazy.
Me and my brother got the Saturn and the N64. I was a kid, so I obviously wasn't the one who picked those consoles. Funny how he went for the Saturn instead of the PS1, considering the latter was hyped like hell and Saturn was considered a disappointment. Maybe its price went down pretty fast, dunno.

Not that Saturn was a bad console, anyway. it had some good games on it, and some of its best stuff dint'even get released outside of Japan.

Peanut
06-22-2015, 08:31 PM
What are we even talking about here? Game quality? Importance? If we're talking about which one is still worth owning and playing it's the Gamecube. There's zero contest there.

N64 was an incredibly important machine with some of the most groundbreaking games of the era, games that defined 3D design, but the library has soured and anything worth playing it on has better sequels, remakes or ports elsewhere. The N64 also lacks a secondary level of quality software beyond the heavy hitting Nintendo first-party. They exist to an extent, but the Gamecube has a far more interesting library, especially now that time has passed.

CyberCubed
06-22-2015, 09:20 PM
The N64 was before my time (I wasn't even a year old when it first came out), whereas the Gamecube's lifespan years were nearly identical to my prime childhood years (2001-2006). So I won't vote because it wouldn't be particularly fair. But I've played both consoles strenuously and I've had a better overall experience with the Gamecube.

Man, I feel old reading stuff like this. I was already a teenager when the N64 was out. Sometimes I forget that some people actually started with the N64 or Gamecube as their first console.

Man us 80's kids are getting old.

Peanut
06-22-2015, 09:38 PM
Man, I feel old reading stuff like this. I was already a teenager when the N64 was out. Sometimes I forget that some people actually started with the N64 or Gamecube as their first console.

Man us 80's kids are getting old.

Wait until the kids on here are getting nostalgic over Angry Birds, then we can feel old.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 10:21 PM
What are we even talking about here? Game quality? Importance? If we're talking about which one is still worth owning and playing it's the Gamecube. There's zero contest there.

N64 was an incredibly important machine with some of the most groundbreaking games of the era, games that defined 3D design, but the library has soured and anything worth playing it on has better sequels, remakes or ports elsewhere. The N64 also lacks a secondary level of quality software beyond the heavy hitting Nintendo first-party. They exist to an extent, but the Gamecube has a far more interesting library, especially now that time has passed.
I'm talking about game quality, basically. I'm not asking which one was more important or more innovative for their time. Obviously you can talk about that if you want to, but at the end of the day, what truly matters to me in a console, is if I like its games. And I prefer GC's games nowadays.

I agree with what you said.

The PS2's insane success has overhadowed its competition, which unfortunately has led to many people miss out on DC/GC/Xbox classics.

Man, I feel old reading stuff like this. I was already a teenager when the N64 was out. Sometimes I forget that some people actually started with the N64 or Gamecube as their first console.

Man us 80's kids are getting old.

I was born in 1990, so the only reason I actually played on the NES/SNES/Genesis as a kid was because my older brother owned them. Otherwise, the first console I'd have touched would have probably been the N64 or the PS1. It was the first generation I actually remember, though. By the time I was old enough to pick up a controller, the 16 bit generation was already near its end.

One thing I wonder is how did teenagers and adults react to PS1/Saturn/N64 games back then. As a 1st-2nd grader, obviously my jaw dropped every time I saw images of a new game for each of those consoles, especially N64.

Btw, I feel old when i realize that games like Super Smash Bros. Melee are already over a decade old. I still remember 2002 Christmas and us getting the GC alongside with Melee and Sunshine.

Toitlefan
06-22-2015, 10:52 PM
I've always thought the GameCube was under-rated. I was the only one among my friends that owned one and I was always trying to talk them into getting one. It's an odd little system with interesting games. The only thing I dislike about it is the controller. That thing is just horribly designed.

The N64 really brought to focus the whole 3D aspect but while playing I always got the feeling that the game was unfinished. It was one of those systems that you "had to be there" when it came out to really appreciate. There is no denying the importance of GoldenEye or MarioKart though.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 10:56 PM
I've always thought the GameCube was under-rated. I was the only one among my friends that owned one and I was always trying to talk them into getting one. It's an odd little system with interesting games. The only thing I dislike about it is the controller. That thing is just horribly designed.

The N64 really brought to focus the whole 3D aspect but while playing I always got the feeling that the game was unfinished. It was one of those systems that you "had to be there" when it came out to really appreciate. There is no denying the importance of GoldenEye or MarioKart though.
I've had like two classmates who had a GC. It didn't sell much in my country. 95% of the kids at the time went for the PS2.

I've played some Banjo-Kazooie last Summer and it has aged well. Not as magical as it was obv, but it's still playable. Ocarina also replayed it not too long ago. Still a good game, but not the "best game ever" like I'd call it back in 1998 :P

How did it give you the feeling that games were unfinished? And you mention Mario Kart instead of Mario 64 or even Ocarina?

oldmanwinters
06-22-2015, 11:02 PM
I'd award the Gamecube the based on the controller configuration alone. I can't stand the placement of the thumbstick and d-pad (practically useless) on the N64 standard controller.

Prowler
06-22-2015, 11:05 PM
I'd award the Gamecube the based on the controller configuration alone. I can't stand the placement of the thumbstick and d-pad (practically useless) on the N64 standard controller.
Yea, the N64 controller d-pad... what games used it?

N64 had a huge controller. I liked it at the time, but GameCube had a better one. The best Nintendo controller will always be SNES, imo.

Toitlefan
06-23-2015, 12:37 AM
I've had like two classmates who had a GC. It didn't sell much in my country. 95% of the kids at the time went for the PS2.

I've played some Banjo-Kazooie last Summer and it has aged well. Not as magical as it was obv, but it's still playable. Ocarina also replayed it not too long ago. Still a good game, but not the "best game ever" like I'd call it back in 1998 :P

How did it give you the feeling that games were unfinished? And you mention Mario Kart instead of Mario 64 or even Ocarina?

Mario 64 is actually a good example of an unfinished game. It wasn't visually appealing to me mainly because the environment felt too empty. I understand that's just the way it was for a newly developed type of game and each system is limited but I couldn't get past it. The gameplay felt sloppy also. I despise games that rely heavily on jumping, yet the controls are no where near precise.
Mario Kart was so much more polished.

I haven't played Ocarina enough to discuss it but I don't think I've ever played a Zelda game I didn't like.

Turo602
06-23-2015, 04:37 AM
Gamecube hands down. The Gamecube is to the N64 what Super Nintendo was to the NES. While the NES and N64 were the more revolutionary consoles, they both existed during an awkward time for games. There's definitely good games to be found in each but 2D and 3D gaming were still just being realized with the NES and N64. It was their successor that perfected the formula. Games felt smoother, looked noticeably better, and even tried new things.

Nevermind the unique console design, the great controller layout, the wavebird, and the Gameboy Player add-on. The games is where the Gamecube really shines. We were introduced to Luigi's Mansion. Metroid finally made the transition from 2D to 3D. Resident Evil was perfected with REmake and even revolutionized third-person action games with RE4. It also had better versions of Mario Kart and Smash Bros. Then there's Mario and Zelda. While most people usually prefer Mario 64 to Sunshine, I've always preferred Sunshine for its unique setting and charming music. Controls may have been a bit slippery but I felt FLUDD really helped balance that out. Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker are both really amazing but Gamecube ultimately gains the advantage for having both games available in its library as well as Twilight Princess.

With that said, Gamecube wins, no contest. It's a shame it was such a criminally underrated console. It's by far one of my favorites, if not, my all-time favorite console.

MrPliggins
06-23-2015, 07:12 AM
Never had an N64, but played friends' consoles in the college dorm, mostly Goldeneye and Ocarina. Despite that, I feel I got much more gameplay out of the Gamecube. I loved Sunshine and Wind Waker. I developed an obsession with Animal Crossing (which curiously didn't continue to subsequent AC games).
Despite being a huge Zelda fan, I to this day have never made it to the end of Ocarina. Even though I purchased the superior 3DS upgrade to the game, I still haven't beaten it. Same with Mario 64. Something about these games always makes me eventually lose interest, while I stuck with Sunshine and Wind Waker to the end easily. I know I'm in the minority here.
So for me, Gamecube all the way.

Peanut
06-23-2015, 11:31 AM
Mario 64 is actually a good example of an unfinished game. It wasn't visually appealing to me mainly because the environment felt too empty. I understand that's just the way it was for a newly developed type of game and each system is limited but I couldn't get past it. The gameplay felt sloppy also. I despise games that rely heavily on jumping, yet the controls are no where near precise.
Mario Kart was so much more polished.

This post is some next level bullsh*t. My mind is reeling.

Truth

You pretty much nailed it, without even going super deep on the stellar library.

Toitlefan
06-23-2015, 12:05 PM
This post is some next level bullsh*t. My mind is reeling.

Easy there, it's just my opinion.

TheCanadiandrome
06-23-2015, 08:45 PM
Never owned a GC but I love my N64! Played a GC and although I never owned one I kinda wish I had bought one

AT-Man
06-24-2015, 03:03 AM
Gamecube all the way. I would even take GC Zeldas before the ones on N64.

Peanut
06-24-2015, 11:41 AM
Easy there, it's just my opinion.

You can't have an opinion about a factual statement. The game isn't unfinished. The stuff about the controls being bad is a poor opinion, seemingly arrived at because of a distinct lack of knowledge and/or experience, but you not enjoying it and thinking it's a bad game is a totally valid opinion.

As far as the people who think the N64 is a superior console...I do have to wonder where they're coming from? It almost has to be an entirely nostalgic choice, or else one based on limited experience with both consoles. Gamecube had Ultimate Muscle, guys. ULTIMATE. MUSCLE. But for real, if any of the people who voted N64 can give me a solid case beyond nostalgia/never playing a GC I'd love to hear it.

Prowler
06-24-2015, 01:40 PM
You can't have an opinion about a factual statement. The game isn't unfinished. The stuff about the controls being bad is a poor opinion, seemingly arrived at because of a distinct lack of knowledge and/or experience, but you not enjoying it and thinking it's a bad game is a totally valid opinion.

As far as the people who think the N64 is a superior console...I do have to wonder where they're coming from? It almost has to be an entirely nostalgic choice, or else one based on limited experience with both consoles. Gamecube had Ultimate Muscle, guys. ULTIMATE. MUSCLE. But for real, if any of the people who voted N64 can give me a solid case beyond nostalgia/never playing a GC I'd love to hear it.
The guy I talked to abotu this before making this thread told me he preferred N64 by far. And then I went on comparing both console's libraries and when I began listing good GC games he simply said "none of those appeal me. I liked N64 for the Rare platformers, Mario 64, GoldenEye and Perfect Dark. Melee was cool, tho."

Leo656
06-24-2015, 09:35 PM
N64 was a big hit with people who couldn't afford to or didn't "Need" to play a lot of games, like if they didn't have a wide variety of interests and were satisfied with just Mario and Zelda stuff. Or like if all a person played was wrestling games, the N64 is pretty much the only console you'd ever need unless you *really* cared about graphics, and those are super-casual gamers so they wouldn't. So, basically, people who'd say they prefer N64 generally have a much more narrow range of interest as far as what games they play. But it's a bigger group of oddballs than you'd think.

But yeah, objectively the Gamecube kills it from every angle, really. Especially once you stick that GBA Player on it and quadruple the amount of games you can play on it.

Prowler
06-24-2015, 09:39 PM
N64 was a big hit with people who couldn't afford to or didn't "Need" to play a lot of games, like if they didn't have a wide variety of interests and were satisfied with just Mario and Zelda stuff. Or like if all a person played was wrestling games, the N64 is pretty much the only console you'd ever need unless you *really* cared about graphics, and those are super-casual gamers so they wouldn't. So, basically, people who'd say they prefer N64 generally have a much more narrow range of interest as far as what games they play. But it's a bigger group of oddballs than you'd think.

But yeah, objectively the Gamecube kills it from every angle, really. Especially once you stick that GBA Player on it and quadruple the amount of games you can play on it.
Nintendo 64 games could b kinda expensive though. Especially Rare games form what I recall.

Saturn's price lowered significantly only a year or two after it hit the market. So I bet some people took advantage of that to buy one and several games for low prices before they were taken out of the stores.

And it's crazy how many wrestling games were on the N64.

Leo656
06-24-2015, 09:47 PM
Only 4 or 5 worth playing, but they're also the only ones you'd ever need. To this day I know dozens of people who ONLY play those games, and nothing else, no Mario or Zelda, just No Mercy forever until the sun goes supernova. And a few others who do that and then maybe also have a 360 for the WWE games and nothing else. It's weird. To me, buying any console only to play 4 or 5 games seems kind of a waste, but y'know, whatever, it's Your hobby, you do it how You like it.

But yeah, literally the ONLY people I've ever heard say the N64 was their favorite console, also said No Mercy was their favorite game of all time. So, y'know, it's kind of a shallow opinion. I'd be shocked if anyone who "really" played video games honestly preferred it over the Cube.

Prowler
06-24-2015, 09:57 PM
Only 4 or 5 worth playing, but they're also the only ones you'd ever need. To this day I know dozens of people who ONLY play those games, and nothing else, no Mario or Zelda, just No Mercy forever until the sun goes supernova. And a few others who do that and then maybe also have a 360 for the WWE games and nothing else. It's weird. To me, buying any console only to play 4 or 5 games seems kind of a waste, but y'know, whatever, it's Your hobby, you do it how You like it.

But yeah, literally the ONLY people I've ever heard say the N64 was their favorite console, also said No Mercy was their favorite game of all time. So, y'know, it's kind of a shallow opinion. I'd be shocked if anyone who "really" played video games honestly preferred it over the Cube.
Many prefer the 64 over the GC. about 40% of the people in the poll thus far, per example. And it's not just on this forum. Like Peanut said, it's probably more nostalgia than anything else. Also, people tend to prefer the Mario and Zelda games on the n64 over the GC ones, which I guess kinda influences their final decisions. I mean, people have different tastes. If everyone was objective and on the "right side", no one would rank any domestic Nintendo console above the SNES :lol:

I can see people buying consoles not just for games nowadays, since they can play DVDs, blurays, etc. hell, PS2 being a cheap DVD player really helped selling the system, per example. But a console like N64 where all you can do is play games? Buying it just for a couple of wrestling games? Those people most be really big wrestling fans.

From my experience, the typical N64 collection consists of: Ocarina, Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, at least a couple of Rare Games, one of the Mario Party games, that ****** South park game, Turok, and a sports or wrestling game(if people are fans, that is). I swear, 95% of the N64 collections I've seen all look more less like that. Oh plenty had Wave race and Pilotwings 64 as well. The only other console I can think of from the top of my head where like everyone seems to have the same games is Sega Saturn.

Btw, N64 multiplayer was a blast back in the day. Remember Mario Kart, DK64 and GoldenEye multiplayer modes? Also those Mario Party games when the series was new? Good times. First console where I experienced multiplayer with 3 other people.

Leo656
06-24-2015, 10:02 PM
Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with it but it's still kind of odd, to me. I mean the Cube just has more games and as others have said, the best N64 games are done better elsewhere. I'unno.

Meanwhile, the N64 is almost all I've personally messed with for the past few weeks. :lol:

Prowler
06-24-2015, 10:04 PM
Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with it but it's still kind of odd, to me. I mean the Cube just has more games and as others have said, the best N64 games are done better elsewhere. I'unno.

Meanwhile, the N64 is almost all I've personally messed with for the past few weeks. :lol:
Which N64 games have been ported? I know that there's remakes of OoT, MM, Diddy Kong Racing and SF64 on the 3DS. And that Mario 64 had been sorta remade for the the DS. And you can also play OoT on the GC if you buy Wind Waker's bundle with it. But what about other classics? have they been ported or remade? I don't really count Animal Crossing's GC remake/port since the N64 version was only released in japan iirc.

Toitlefan
06-24-2015, 10:17 PM
The N64 seemed like a stepping stone to the Game Cube. The N64 did these new ways to play the game, it just didn't do it very well.

You can't have an opinion about a factual statement. The game isn't unfinished. The stuff about the controls being bad is a poor opinion, seemingly arrived at because of a distinct lack of knowledge and/or experience, but you not enjoying it and thinking it's a bad game is a totally valid opinion.

Allow me to help you get caught up. When I said the game was unfinished I was referring to an earlier post of mine that said the game just FELT unfinished. Maybe I only feel that way in comparison to other games, I don't really know. I do prefer Playstation controllers over all others so maybe that's why I don't like Nintendo's. The layout just doesn't work well with my hands I suppose.

Peanut
06-25-2015, 09:40 AM
The N64 seemed like a stepping stone to the Game Cube. The N64 did these new ways to play the game, it just didn't do it very well.

Dude...what? SM64 and OoT were not only game changing, genre defining 3D games, they were also (and still are) incredibly designed games that stand the test of time.

Allow me to help you get caught up. When I said the game was unfinished I was referring to an earlier post of mine that said the game just FELT unfinished. Maybe I only feel that way in comparison to other games, I don't really know. I do prefer Playstation controllers over all others so maybe that's why I don't like Nintendo's. The layout just doesn't work well with my hands I suppose.

Hmm. Were you actively involved with games at that time, or did you come to all of this stuff later? Trying to wrap my head around the environment that would foster your particular stance. Also, the original PS controller didn't even have an analog stick, so making the controller comparison where it concerns a title like SM64, the game that revolutionized 3D analog control, doesn't really hold water. Unless you're a huge fan of Croc, then I don't even know what to say.

Which N64 games have been ported? I know that there's remakes of OoT, MM, Diddy Kong Racing and SF64 on the 3DS. And that Mario 64 had been sorta remade for the the DS. And you can also play OoT on the GC if you buy Wind Waker's bundle with it. But what about other classics? have they been ported or remade?

Like...what? What other classics are there? Conker has a steller remake on the Xbox and in August the N64 version is being updated for Rare Replay on X1, both Banjo-Kazooie games and Perfect Dark have superior HD ports on the 360 and what else is there? You can go to fringe games like Ogre Battle 64 or Mischief Makers, but those are few and far between. There are better sequels, ports and remakes of nearly everything worth playing on the N64.

Also, took longer than I thought for someone to come in here and spew over those f*cking N64 wrestling games.

Prowler
06-25-2015, 11:28 AM
Like...what? What other classics are there? Conker has a steller remake on the Xbox and in August the N64 version is being updated for Rare Replay on X1, both Banjo-Kazooie games and Perfect Dark have superior HD ports on the 360 and what else is there? You can go to fringe games like Ogre Battle 64 or Mischief Makers, but those are few and far between. There are better sequels, ports and remakes of nearly everything worth playing on the N64.

Also, took longer than I thought for someone to come in here and spew over those f*cking N64 wrestling games.
Oh, right. Banjo had a remake on the 360. Totally forgot about that one. Didn't know about Perfect Dark and Conker's remakes, though. Then again I've never owned a Microsoft console and don't really pay attention to what goes on there. I guess it makes sense, though, since MS owns Rare. Also, you know what I'd really love to see a remake of? Blast Corps. I loved that game as a kid. Imagine that game with better graphics and with improved gameplay :o

Pilotwings 64... well there was a game on the 3DS, wasn't there? I guess that's included in sequels that are better? GC also has a Wave Race game.

A GoldenEye remake would be nice... but that game has issues that go deeper than dated graphics. It's really a game that you had to be there to play it.

What about the Turok games? I own the first one, Dinosaur Hunter, but could never get into it. Then again I've never been a big shooter guy.

And what's wrong with N64 wrestling games? You think they've aged poorly? I haven't tried them out but judging from the videos and images I've seen, they look pretty dated. Although big fans of those games have told me that they actually play quite well still and that you need to ignore the dated graphics in order to enjoy them properly nowadays.

Turo602
06-25-2015, 02:55 PM
And what's wrong with N64 wrestling games? You think they've aged poorly? I haven't tried them out but judging from the videos and images I've seen, they look pretty dated. Although big fans of those games have told me that they actually play quite well still and that you need to ignore the dated graphics in order to enjoy them properly nowadays.

I was a huge Wrestlemania 2000 and No Mercy guy for a long time. But even I have to admit that they've gotten really dated. It was such a sad day when I first realized it wasn't as fun as I remembered. There's still a lot of great stuff about No Mercy that I wish would be incorporated into modern wrestling games but honestly, you'd have more fun with the new ones.

Prowler
06-25-2015, 03:02 PM
I was s huge Wrestlemania 2000 and No Mercy guy for a long time. But even I have to admit that they've gotten really dated. It was such a sad day when I first realized it wasn't as fun as I remembered. There's still a lot of great stuff about No Mercy that I wish would be incorporated into modern wrestling games but honestly, you'd have more fun with the new ones.
Some people say No Mercy, in particular, has aged poorly and it's full of glitches. Is that true? And are they hard to overlook? I believe one thing that makes No Mercy so popular still is being able to create a lot of CAWs. Like, a wrestler's alternate outfit, can be a totally different wrestler with a different moveset, etc.

Btw, wasn't that TNA Impact game that came out back in 2007 or 2008 supposed to be influenced by No mercy gameplay wise, but it turned out to be a pretty poor received game in the end?

Speaking of non-wrestling games, F-Zero X really looks dated graphically speaking. hell, it wasn't particularly impressive from a graphic standpoint back then either, but nowadays it just looks kinda plain. GX, on the other hand, still looks amazing and better than many Wii games. It also gave some backstory and personality to the various characters. Not to mention an insanely hard story mode. Too bad it didn't have the death race mode from X, though. I loved that mode.

Turo602
06-25-2015, 05:07 PM
Some people say No Mercy, in particular, has aged poorly and it's full of glitches. Is that true? And are they hard to overlook? I believe one thing that makes No Mercy so popular still is being able to create a lot of CAWs. Like, a wrestler's alternate outfit, can be a totally different wrestler with a different moveset, etc.

Btw, wasn't that TNA Impact game that came out back in 2007 or 2008 supposed to be influenced by No mercy gameplay wise, but it turned out to be a pretty poor received game in the end?

I don't know about any glitches but No Mercy was the best of all the wrestling games back in the day. If that game has aged poorly which I think it has, then the rest are worse. Aside from the CAWs, the gameplay was vastly superior to other N64 wrestling games.

I don't remember much about that TNA game, aside from it having like one good match type and awkward gameplay. I wouldn't compare it to No Mercy.

Leo656
06-26-2015, 12:21 AM
No modern wrestling games until 2K14 actually felt like "wrestling". The moves, strikes, grappling and reversals were always too fast and lacked any impact. Too arcade-y. Photo-realistic graphics on top of a flimsy engine that nobody ever "loved" to start with, and only got minor tweaks every year for 15 years. They've all got their good and bad, but the only wrestling games ever made that a person could pick up and learn and actually get Great at immediately, were the N64 games. The SD series would mix up the controls every year - some years it'd be better, some years worse - and make it either too hard or too easy to do counters and reversals. And the AI in modern wrestling games is universally awful, with only two "difficulty settings": Test Dummy, or Block Everything. There's no balance. Meanwhile, there were dozens of moves in the N64 games that they never bothered putting into the newer games until a couple years ago, like the Torture Rack, or even a decent Piledriver. There's lots of little things the N64 games just did better. Basically, if you want a game where you just beat up the CPU in 2 minutes by spamming running grapples and then hitting a finisher, the new games are great. The N64 games had the actual back-and-forth of a real match, which, to me, always made it more exciting and fun.

Not that the newer games themselves are trash. A lot of them are just fine, and I honestly think 2K14 was the best overall wrestling game ever made. But I'd argue that 2/3 of the WWE games made since the N64 era have aged WAY worse than the N64 ones, in every way but the graphics. I mean, to this day there's still a ton of people who swear No Mercy is king. I disagree, BUT, I see where they're coming from, and nobody will ever even TRY to make that argument about, say, SvR 2008, or any game in that series, really, except HCTP or 2K14. And 2K14's biggest improvements were all based on ripping off the No Mercy grappling system. So they obviously did something right, back then.

As for "glitches", other than some 4-player slowdown in No Mercy I really don't know. Playing it a couple weeks ago, it was actually not anywhere near as bad as I remembered it, and the older games were smooth as ice. Having the RAM expansion helps though. If you like the general way the N64 games play, though, but HAVE to have better-looking graphics, the DoR series on the Cube is about 9/10s the same as No Mercy, but it's a little too fast (and everyone walks like Robocop :lol:). Not perfect, but still much better grappling, striking, and reversals than the SD series.

TNA game is a very pretty waste of time. If you play it for 5 minutes, you've done everything. Not awful... but awfully disappointing. It's not even finished. Like 10 moves in the whole game. 4 CAW slots. No kidding. It's like a very large demo.

shuriken
06-26-2015, 12:45 AM
^^ I dunno I may be biased but SVR 2k7 is fantastic, and my favorite wrasslin' game. Get 1-4 buddies of mine on multitap and have a royal rumble, Elimination Chamber match, or a money in the bank match and it is ON.
I haven't played anything newer than 2k13 but it's still good. As for No Mercy it holds up pretty well, as does Wrestlemania 2000 aside from graphics and some stiffness.
As for N-64 vs Game-cube, aside from the nostalgia factor there is really no contest. Game-cube all the way. Although I did play N-64 growing up more because it seems everyone had either that or ps1 at the time.

Leo656
06-26-2015, 01:03 AM
2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.

Prowler
06-26-2015, 01:06 AM
Great post, Leo. Always a pleasure to get some of your wrestling vidya knowledge. :tsmile:

Outside of SmackDown games, I have only played DoR 2, which was actually my first ever wrestling game... well played a bit of that NES WWF game where you couldn't even grapple(and it had the nerve to call it self a wrestling game...) and that SNES WWF game that was a bit similar to Mortal Kombat in gameplay... which was odd.

Anyway, one thing I liked in DOR 2 was how you couldn't actually pull a finisher anytime like in SD! games. You had to actually work for it and then you had to press A+B and then had about 15 seconds to pull a special move on your opponent. No being able to store your finisher after just landing a few punches on your opponent and then using it anytime. Also, one thing that I REALLY dislike about the SD! games is the submission moves. Holy hell do they kill my fingers! Plus you gotta mash ALL buttons, while in DOR 2 all you had to do was tap A repeatedly. In SD! games I don't have much fun playing as Jericho, Benoit or Angle. Unless it's in SYM since there weren't any submission bars yet. Also, in DOR 2 you could pick between 4 different options when applying a hold. That was pretty cool and made for good strategies.

Ofc not everything is good. I wasn't much of a fan of the "revenge/recovering move" or wtv that was, though. Where if you were successful, both wrestlers moods would switch and you could suddenly win a match you were about to win. I guess it's realistic for "high spirit" to win you a match. After all, faces win matches like that all the time, don't they, despite being brutally beaten throughout it.

Another thing I enjoyed about it was how the matches seemed to flow well. How do I explain this... in SD! games, every time you pull a grapple or a finisher, you feel like you're watching some stock footage all over again. Hell, the wrestlers even change their positions in the ring as well of a sudden. I didn't get such feeling in DOR 2.

And ofc, the story and CAW modes as I had told you already, were great. Although the loading times really made CAW mode feel sluggish and like a chore at times, though.

I remember you saying that you can easily buy N64 wrestling games online for fairly cheap. What about the GC ones such as WM XIX and DOR 1? Any idea how much they go for?

As for the SD! series, HCTP was the best one I've played. And yes, in high difficulty, matches were longer mostly because the opponent blocked 9 out of 10 attacks. All you had to do was block/counter in time to avoid damage.

^^ I dunno I may be biased but SVR 2k7 is fantastic, and my favorite wrasslin' game. Get 1-4 buddies of mine on multitap and have a royal rumble, Elimination Chamber match, or a money in the bank match and it is ON.
I haven't played anything newer than 2k13 but it's still good. As for No Mercy it holds up pretty well, as does Wrestlemania 2000 aside from graphics and some stiffness.
As for N-64 vs Game-cube, aside from the nostalgia factor there is really no contest. Game-cube all the way. Although I did play N-64 growing up more because it seems everyone had either that or ps1 at the time.

SD vs. Raw 2007? I got bored of it fairly quickly. It did improve upon some things from SF vs. Raw 2006, such as the GM mode, the story mode(2006's was pretty bad) and giving wrestlers entrances for hell in a hell, steel cage and elimination chamber matches(dunno why they removed those from 2006). But it didn't feel like a completely different game from SvR 2006. See, the SD! series started to feel like a generic sports series like FIFA, NBA 2k, etc. with the name change to SvR. The first 6 SD! games are all distinctly different, but SvR 1, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, etc. all look and feel essentially the same. If only wrestling games had variety nowadays like they did back then and Jakks/pacific could go back to making an exclusive series for each system.

And ye, it was usually PS1 or N64. I had N64 and Saturn, though. But it wasn't that rare to find people with Saturns here. I recall it being quite popular in its first year, actually.

2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.
I do, though. And this is my thread, so feel free to talk about it. Screw the haters. :tcool:

Leo656
06-26-2015, 01:31 AM
All the Gamecube wrestling games are about $5 each. Anywhere from $2 to $8. Probably find 'em at a flea market or yard sale for a buck each. You could probably get a bundle with WM XIX and both DoRs for like $10-15 off of Amazon. Don't go near X8, though. Just don't.

Peanut
06-26-2015, 09:45 AM
And what's wrong with N64 wrestling games? You think they've aged poorly? I haven't tried them out but judging from the videos and images I've seen, they look pretty dated. Although big fans of those games have told me that they actually play quite well still and that you need to ignore the dated graphics in order to enjoy them properly nowadays.

Nothing is wrong with them. They're great and I played them a lot. I just find that in every N64 discussion there will be at least one person who won't shut up about them, and big fans of them generally bring them up constantly regardless, because there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.

Though wrestling fans have an annoying tendency to bring up the fact they're wrestling fans and/or make wrestling references in every other conversation, so part of my annoyance with these games (that I very much still like and used to absolutely love) extends to the general annoyance I feel with that particular quirk of modern wrestling fans these days.

Edit: Oh, also, the thing that makes the N64 wrestling games more fun to play than modern ones is that they were games first and wrestling products second. Slapping the WWF license on an incredibly tight and satisfying grapple/strike/reversal engine meant that even though they do a poor job of emulating the spectacle of an actual wrestling match, they were, mechanically, super enjoyable. As the genre grew and became more about reproducing lavish entrances and accurate wrestler models, it got away from the part where it's just a super fun game, regardless of the license. More time is spent on recreating the slick broadcast standards of the WWE and less on the actual game part of it. Which is why WWE All-Stars was the most fun wrestling game of the past generation; it was built on the foundations of a strong engine and mechanics and worked up from there.

oldmanwinters
06-26-2015, 09:55 AM
Yea, the N64 controller d-pad... what games used it?

N64 had a huge controller. I liked it at the time, but GameCube had a better one. The best Nintendo controller will always be SNES, imo.

I'd be happy if the N64 d-pad at least allowed me to navigate menus, but it seems that few games even offer that degree of functionality.

Honestly, I'm curious. What games actually made notable use of the N64 D-pad?

Powder
06-26-2015, 01:07 PM
there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.


:lol:

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.

Prowler
06-26-2015, 01:29 PM
All the Gamecube wrestling games are about $5 each. Anywhere from $2 to $8. Probably find 'em at a flea market or yard sale for a buck each. You could probably get a bundle with WM XIX and both DoRs for like $10-15 off of Amazon. Don't go near X8, though. Just don't.
That bad, huh?

Nothing is wrong with them. They're great and I played them a lot. I just find that in every N64 discussion there will be at least one person who won't shut up about them, and big fans of them generally bring them up constantly regardless, because there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.

Though wrestling fans have an annoying tendency to bring up the fact they're wrestling fans and/or make wrestling references in every other conversation, so part of my annoyance with these games (that I very much still like and used to absolutely love) extends to the general annoyance I feel with that particular quirk of modern wrestling fans these days.

Edit: Oh, also, the thing that makes the N64 wrestling games more fun to play than modern ones is that they were games first and wrestling products second. Slapping the WWF license on an incredibly tight and satisfying grapple/strike/reversal engine meant that even though they do a poor job of emulating the spectacle of an actual wrestling match, they were, mechanically, super enjoyable. As the genre grew and became more about reproducing lavish entrances and accurate wrestler models, it got away from the part where it's just a super fun game, regardless of the license. More time is spent on recreating the slick broadcast standards of the WWE and less on the actual game part of it. Which is why WWE All-Stars was the most fun wrestling game of the past generation; it was built on the foundations of a strong engine and mechanics and worked up from there.
I do agree with you that plenty of wrestling fans are obnoxious nerds, but I haven't seen anything like that ITT thus far. It's not like Leo has anything to prove. He's even a wrestler. Who doesn't know already that he's a big wrestling fan? Not to mention that the Drome has a lot of people who have knwon each other for years and there's a significant amount of wrestling fans here, so I don't see the issue with someone bringing up those games since there will most definitely be more people who are/were into them as well. And since we're talking about N64 and GC games, might as well cover all genres. Nowadays they're just focusing on graphics and "realism" as you've said. Which is silly, because wrestling isn't a real sport. Its games should be treated more like fighting games than sports ones. I have more fun with Shut Your Mouth than with SvR 2006 or 2007.

Also, I agree with you that older wrestling games did seem more diverse and unique.

:lol:

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.
I must say I've never noticed this. I didn't know there were wrestling fans who strictly played wrestling games and nothing else. I have, however, met wrestling fans who didn't like wrestling games as a whole because they thought no game could accurately emulate the wrestling experience.

Peanut
06-26-2015, 03:52 PM
:lol:

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.

You definitely aren't. I think it's because they are unarguably good games that were (this has changed a great deal) generally unknown to non-wrestling fans on a console with an incredibly limited library. It's less common knowledge, therefore, in accordance with nerd culture, whoever knows about them is clearly the superior dork.

but I haven't seen anything like that ITT thus far.

OK? I said I was surprised it took so long for someone to bring it up, then explained why when you assumed it was because I thought they were bad. I didn't make any qualitative statements about the conversation in this thread one way or the other.

Prowler
06-26-2015, 04:20 PM
You definitely aren't. I think it's because they are unarguably good games that were (this has changed a great deal) generally unknown to non-wrestling fans on a console with an incredibly limited library. It's less common knowledge, therefore, in accordance with nerd culture, whoever knows about them is clearly the superior dork.



OK? I said I was surprised it took so long for someone to bring it up, then explained why when you assumed it was because I thought they were bad. I didn't make any qualitative statements about the conversation in this thread one way or the other.
Well, sometimes it's hard to interpret posts on an internet message board since you don't hear someone's voice and its tone, so never mind that.

And yes, if anyone thinks they're superior because they've heard of WWF No mercy then they're silly and deluded since Wrestling isn't mainstream. Then again, I cant' say I've ever seen someone act that way. Although I'm not surprised you have. Nothing social awkward nerds do surprise me anymore.

TheCanadiandrome
06-26-2015, 11:54 PM
I guess I'm a superior dork lol! And Leo I didn't think X8 was bad :lol:

Leo656
06-28-2015, 01:05 AM
Hm. I disagree.

It's definitely pretty "bad" compared to XIX and both DoRs, at the very least. And it was blatantly unfinished, that didn't help. I'unno, didn't like it. Really tried to. Every few years I try it again, since I can still play XIX or DoR for hours, but I just don't have any fun at all with X8. It's so clunky and nothing quite works right. Just can't recommend it.

I went to go pick up X8 on launch day and there were already a stack of returns on the counter at GameStop. :lol: Never saw that one before. That should've been a sign, I guess. But at least I saved $5 just for buying it after lunch. :lol: Least someone's having fun with it.

TheCanadiandrome
06-28-2015, 03:27 AM
Well if or when I get w GC I plan to buy all the WWE games

shuriken
06-28-2015, 07:40 PM
2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.

Well in a nutshell that was when they introduced the Money in the Bank, the soundtrack is awesome, I really liked GM mode, the varying weight classes that prevented a 200 pounder from picking up BigShow, The roster is pretty great (if Jericho, Punk and Christian were in it it'd be perfect) plus a tiny bit of nostalgia. I know its not the best (better than anything before 2k10 IMO) but like I said its my fave. Although 2k8 is pretty bad...

Prowler
07-05-2015, 08:05 AM
Well in a nutshell that was when they introduced the Money in the Bank, the soundtrack is awesome, I really liked GM mode, the varying weight classes that prevented a 200 pounder from picking up BigShow, The roster is pretty great (if Jericho, Punk and Christian were in it it'd be perfect) plus a tiny bit of nostalgia. I know its not the best (better than anything before 2k10 IMO) but like I said its my fave. Although 2k8 is pretty bad...
I liked how they tried to change-up the control scheme a bit, but those mini-games during matches got old pretty fast, imo.

The GM mode was quite improved upon, though. And you could even change each wrestlers rating, although I've never done it. But still not good enough to satisfy people who play EWR. :P

And good call on the weight class difference. Shawn Michaels shouldn't really be able to pick up Big Show with much ease.

In terms of roster, the best wrestling game I've played was HCTP. SYM had a pretty decent roster as well.

Leo656
07-05-2015, 08:15 PM
I hate the WWE roster and never, ever touch any of those guys except when I "Have" to to get Achievements or unlock stuff, which I usually do first thing so I never have to waste time playing as those lame dweebs again. :lol: Top to bottom, 2K14 probably has the best mix of the best guys from the 80s to now. Although Virtual Pro 64 has an AMAZING roster, just no WWF guys. Which is fine with me. :tgrin:

The Legends roster and the 100 CAW slots put 2K14 way over, for me. I seriously could not care less about WWE wrestlers, so they're always my jobbers. Any wrestling game for me mostly flies on how good the CAW is. 2K14 was perfect, between the Legends and the CAWs you never had to touch the "real" roster at all. I had a show running every day in Universe Mode, almost 100% created people and Legends, with all the WWE guys marginalized on the crappy Friday night show. :lol:

Prowler
07-05-2015, 08:43 PM
Looking at WWE 2k14's roster, it is pretty good. Also, you know you're getting old when you see Edge and Batista in the "legends" section. :lol:

The current roster, however, there's like 6 maybe that I'd play as? And if I had to play as one of the women I'd ply as Layla. I've never enjoyed playing as the women in any wrestling game, dunno why.