PDA

View Full Version : Movie Decisions Someone Should've Been Fired For


TigerClaw
09-23-2015, 04:42 PM
Saw this article and TMNT 3 was mention in it.
http://www.looper.com/3109/movie-decisions-someone-shouldve-fired/

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III (1993) - Adding Time Travel

The filmmakers behind Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III didn't want to just rehash what had already been done in the first and second movies, which are about the ninja turtles fighting the foot clan. The third movie, on the other hand, is about the turtles time traveling to feudal Japan. It's such an insane jump that comes out of nowhere. The movie was a disaster, and it's all because of the time travel story. It's understandable for a sequel to try new things. At least make those things fit in with the other movies in the series.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-23-2015, 05:01 PM
"Movie Decisions Someone Should've Been Fired For"...

I'll just copy and paste the entire Platinum Dunes TMNT discussion threads into this post, shall I? :twink:

MikeandRaph87
09-23-2015, 05:04 PM
Not TMNT related but...
Removing Richard Donner from the Superman movie franchise.

Not allowing Sam Raimi to push his script through for Spider-man 4 instead deciding to reboot the movie franchise.

TMNT related? I love Ninja Turtles (1990) and Secret of The Ooze. Its too hard to say as I am not as crazy for the others. Need Shredder and stronger scripts that the other two had.

Powder
09-23-2015, 05:23 PM
"It's such an insane jump that comes out of nowhere"

Not for actual fans who have, ya know, read a comic, watched an episode, etc. Time Travel is a huge deal in TMNT lore. What a dipsh*t.

TigerClaw
09-23-2015, 05:27 PM
"It's such an insane jump that comes out of nowhere"

Not for actual fans who have, ya know, read a comic, watched an episode, etc. Time Travel is a huge deal in TMNT lore. What a dipsh*t.
Yeah, whoever wrote the article probably never read any of the comics.

Powder
09-23-2015, 06:18 PM
There were several time travel episodes in the Fred Wolf cartoon, too, so they must have little to no TMNT knowledge whatsoever.

TigerClaw
09-23-2015, 06:28 PM
There were several time travel episodes in the Fred Wolf cartoon, too, so they must have little to no TMNT knowledge whatsoever.
Yeah, time travel has always been a part of TMNT, but not a major part.

ToTheNines
09-23-2015, 06:40 PM
Not on the same level as Dr. Who lol, but pretty important.

Powder
09-23-2015, 06:56 PM
Yeah, time travel has always been a part of TMNT, but not a major part.

On the contrary, I would argue it's one of the larger themes.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-23-2015, 07:05 PM
On the contrary, I would argue it's one of the larger themes.

How is it a major part? Other than the various Renet escapes in Mirage Volume 1 (especially Masks) and Renet and April in Volume 4, I can't really think of any other major time-travel escapades...

CyberCubed
09-23-2015, 07:21 PM
It might have been better if Lord Norinaga was an ancestor of Oroku Saki at least. Like Lord Oroku Norinaga.

Powder
09-23-2015, 07:34 PM
How is it a major part? Other than the various Renet escapes in Mirage Volume 1 (especially Masks) and Renet and April in Volume 4, I can't really think of any other major time-travel escapades...

I really don't wanna sit here & recall how many time travel stories there are in each universe, can you just trust me when I say there are tons? :tlol: Mind you, time travel includes parallel universes, alternate realities, the passage of time (like Mirage books that focus on elder TMNT) etc. There are whole versions of the turtles based around it, Turtles In Time, Fast Forward, Turtles Forever, the third film, obviously. Mirage has literally tens of issues dealing with it, so too does Archie (let's not forget the young turtles kicking it with their older selves). 4kids adapted some of the Mirage stories but also created their own which would become classics, like Same As It Never Was. The OT had our boys go back & witness the creation of their clan, show their worn-down older selves how to kick shell anew, etc. It's all over. IDW & Nick have already done some tales like that & show signs of diving further into the topic.

When you think about the TMNT, the most commonly seen themes are:

Ninja/Samurai material
Outer space
Monsters
Time travel
Spirituality
Nature
Mobsters

oldmanwinters
09-23-2015, 08:18 PM
As I've said before, I like TMNT3 more than most people. I always have. As a kid, it was even kinda my favorite of the bunch from time to time.

Whatever problems were unique to the 3rd movie had almost everything to do with the execution, not the general concept. The costumes had a big part of it, and I think it does kinda fall into the generic "90s attitude in medieval times" mold that characterized so many of the movies of that era.

Leo656
09-23-2015, 08:21 PM
"Movie Decisions Someone Should've Been Fired For"...

I'll just copy and paste the entire Platinum Dunes TMNT discussion threads into this post, shall I? :twink:

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/33536608.jpg

TurtleMikey
09-26-2015, 11:58 AM
Dropping the Blue Door script completely, rather than simply changing it to be traditional in origin.

Post from another thread as to why I think this:


You never fully read the original blue door script, did you. I eventually looked it up (late last year or so) and stayed up all night reading the thing.

I'm sorry, but Bay lied. He "Donald Trumped" that lie and covered his ass with what we thought we'd believe.

In that script, in the end, they do indeed turn out to be aliens. The Turtles straight up find that they are from a different world of other people who look like them; the four of them were sent/taken to Earth as babies to protect them (because they had a special destiny - for some reason), with Splinter as their guardian who kept it secret from them, and in the end they have to leave Earth forever, part ways and never to see each other again, to go individually protect four different... what ever it was that was that would keep dimensions from colliding. Mikey even comments about possibly meeting girls from their home world. Yes... I'm sorry, but they were going to be aliens, it was not simply ooze of "alien origin."

They weren't aliens. No more than Kraang is an alien.

They were from another dimension. Specifically, they were from Dimension X. And in their version of Dimension X, there existed a race of turtle beings who were at odds with Kraang, and that is where the Turtles (and Splinter) came from.

It's really not bad for an alternate TMNT origin. In fact, its pretty good. Also, more logical and less convoluted than the origin in the final film.

IMO, the Blue Door script was FAR better than what we got. Had they simply dropped the alternate origin (though it really wasn't bad), did a traditional Shredder (or dropped the Foot and Schrader name, to open it up for the real Foot later), and had them stay on Earth in the conclusion, it would have been a solid take on the turtles.

I'm sad we didn't get that version of the Turtles, whom were crazy acrobatic and did real ninja ****, were even more like the Turtles we know. And had some really great scenes to display that, as well develop them as characters and brothers.

That, as opposed to the never developed, dumbed down, ADD, Hulk Smash versions we did get.

There was alot of potential in that version. And it was thrown away in favor of something generically ****ty, and no better in its execution of the origin. And all because fans bitched about something that wasn't even accurate.

Powder
09-26-2015, 04:07 PM
While I would've rather gotten the Blue Door script, the fact something like it even exists beyond some weirdo's fan-fiction is a grand offense.

Technogeek29
09-26-2015, 08:30 PM
Whoever thought all that crap on Donatello looked good.

Walkabout
09-28-2015, 06:31 AM
While I would've rather gotten the Blue Door script, the fact something like it even exists beyond some weirdo's fan-fiction is a grand offense.

Absofeckinglutely.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-28-2015, 09:47 AM
TMNT 2 changing TGRI to TCRI still makes me dislike the original movieverse. That's what was supposed to be the secret of the ooze (could still have been an accident), it's extraterrestrial origin!

sethmartin
09-28-2015, 11:36 AM
I don't think the "time-travel" plot ruined Turtles 3. What ruined it was- Bad writing, crappy looking costumes, horrible villains that didn't even belong in that time period, no villains from the comics/cartoons/ etc., horrible jokes, only 3 fight scenes in the whole movie and only one of which involved all of the turtles, need I go on?

PD Ninja Turtles is a much better film than Turtles 3... which really isn't saying much. Both movies suffered from the same thing- 1. Trying to be too ambitious with poorly written scripts that didn't focus on what was really important. 2. Trying to dumb it down for kids, completely forgetting that kids loved the first movie.

Powder
09-28-2015, 12:19 PM
PD Ninja Turtles is a much better film than Turtles 3...

Maybe visually. But TMNT 3 is better acted, written/characterized, edited, it follows through on it's plots, which have no holes... :trazz:

Casey
09-28-2015, 12:23 PM
It might have been better if Lord Norinaga was an ancestor of Oroku Saki at least. Like Lord Oroku Norinaga.

That's what I think too. Have a version of the Foot Clan and a relative of Saki. That's all it would've taken to tie it in with the franchise.

MsMarvelDuckie
09-28-2015, 05:43 PM
Maybe visually. But TMNT 3 is better acted, written/characterized, edited, it follows through on it's plots, which have no holes... :trazz:


Couldn't agree more. Really, the only thing wrong with it was the costuming and the dated humor. And the story actually made sense.


That's what I think too. Have a version of the Foot Clan and a relative of Saki. That's all it would've taken to tie it in with the franchise.


But they did that- with Casey/Whit and Mitsu's little brother Yoshi. Pretty clear ties, IMHO. I sort of got the impression it was meant to be the beginning of Hamato Yoshi's family, since we are never told Mitsu and little Yoshi's surname.... Whit was pretty obviously Casey's ancestor or at least a previous incarnation- take your pick.

Jester
09-28-2015, 06:02 PM
But they did that- with Casey/Whit and Mitsu's little brother Yoshi. Pretty clear ties, IMHO. I sort of got the impression it was meant to be the beginning of Hamato Yoshi's family, since we are never told Mitsu and little Yoshi's surname.... Whit was pretty obviously Casey's ancestor or at least a previous incarnation- take your pick.
I always assumed that as well. It helps me enjoy TMNT III. I still think TMNT III would be taken better with Henson suits.

MsMarvelDuckie
09-28-2015, 07:04 PM
No doubt. Honestly, aside fromt he slight google-eye thing they had going, they weren't really even that bad. And going overboard on the spots. That sort of bothered me too.

Casey
09-28-2015, 07:19 PM
Couldn't agree more. Really, the only thing wrong with it was the costuming and the dated humor. And the story actually made sense.





But they did that- with Casey/Whit and Mitsu's little brother Yoshi. Pretty clear ties, IMHO. I sort of got the impression it was meant to be the beginning of Hamato Yoshi's family, since we are never told Mitsu and little Yoshi's surname.... Whit was pretty obviously Casey's ancestor or at least a previous incarnation- take your pick.


I disagree that they are hinting at there being any relation to Saki and I think the Casey thing was obviously a previous incarnation or something, BUT how does that really tie in to the storyline like it would have if we had the Foot? Casey's possible ancestor is completely unnecessary and does nothing for the plot.

MsMarvelDuckie
09-28-2015, 07:27 PM
You misunderstood. I wasn't referring to Saki or the Foot, but to Hamato Yoshi. Which is the only tie they would need, really. Without him being born, there would have been no rivalry to begin with! Mitsu seemed suspiciously ninja-like (kunoichi?) so it's possible her family began the teachings that later led to the ninja clan that Hamato Yoshi belonged to. Why does everything always have to tie to the Foot, anyway? They aren't the ONLY enemies in TMNT lore, after all, and the third movie clearly was its own thing apart from the Foot right from the start. It was about the Time Scepter, not Shredder. Not everything HAS to revolve around him! :trolleye:

Edit: And yes, Whit was actually pretty crucial to the plot. He got in with April and the turtles (spy), he stole the scepter after they found it, and he delivered it to Walker AND kidnapped Mitsu! Walker had been planning on blackmailing or bribing Norinaga with it, which is why he told him he didn't have it, even though he knew Whit had it. Pretty major role there.

Casey
09-28-2015, 08:17 PM
You misunderstood. I wasn't referring to Saki or the Foot, but to Hamato Yoshi. Which is the only tie they would need, really. Without him being born, there would have been no rivalry to begin with! Mitsu seemed suspiciously ninja-like (kunoichi?) so it's possible her family began the teachings that later led to the ninja clan that Hamato Yoshi belonged to. Why does everything always have to tie to the Foot, anyway? They aren't the ONLY enemies in TMNT lore, after all, and the third movie clearly was its own thing apart from the Foot right from the start. It was about the Time Scepter, not Shredder. Not everything HAS to revolve around him! :trolleye:

Edit: And yes, Whit was actually pretty crucial to the plot. He got in with April and the turtles (spy), he stole the scepter after they found it, and he delivered it to Walker AND kidnapped Mitsu! Walker had been planning on blackmailing or bribing Norinaga with it, which is why he told him he didn't have it, even though he knew Whit had it. Pretty major role there.

I see what you mean about Splinter now. Now I think you've misunderstood me though haha. I was saying that Whit being related to Casey in any way has nothing to do with the plot in the same way that showing how the Foot got started or how Saki's family took power happened.

ProactiveMan
09-29-2015, 01:55 AM
No doubt. Honestly, aside fromt he slight google-eye thing they had going, they weren't really even that bad. And going overboard on the spots. That sort of bothered me too.

And their goofy, giant teeth and flappy-open mouths, and balloon rubber skin...

MsMarvelDuckie
09-29-2015, 12:55 PM
I see what you mean about Splinter now. Now I think you've misunderstood me though haha. I was saying that Whit being related to Casey in any way has nothing to do with the plot in the same way that showing how the Foot got started or how Saki's family took power happened.


No, I didn't misunderstand that at all. It just wasn't relevant tot he plot. Saki was dead, and had nothing to do with the story at all. Why would they need to include anything about his family in that case? It would serve no purpose. Casey, on the other hand, DID, especially since he was (semi)actively involved in the plot. So having ties to the past made sense for him. Also, April was the one who decided to take Whit along, precisely BECAUSE of his resemblance to Casey. Yet there was no way for Walker to know that! So yes, there was plenty of reason to have him there.

Technogeek29
09-29-2015, 10:50 PM
There are some things I like about TMNT III mainly it focused on Mikey and we see he can be more than the funny guy the original movie touched on it but not to the degree 3 did.

Galactus
09-30-2015, 06:46 PM
Dropping the Blue Door script completely, rather than simply changing it to be traditional in origin.

They didn't drop it completely. There's quite a lot from that script in the finished movie.

Coola Yagami
09-30-2015, 09:31 PM
"It's such an insane jump that comes out of nowhere"

Not for actual fans who have, ya know, read a comic, watched an episode, etc. Time Travel is a huge deal in TMNT lore. What a dipsh*t.

Not really a *******. It just doesn't make sense for the average movie goer, especially after the context of the first 2 movies.

I mean to be fair, time travel hits every comic book sooner or later. But you kinda can't go from 2 movies that were more or less grounded in reality to all of a sudden time travel. I mean, talking turtles aside, they can't go from fighting a street gang, then a street gang and 2 evil mutants... to TIME TRAVEL!!! WHOOOOOO!!!!

Doesn't work that way in cinema unless you kinda hint crazy stuff like this is bound to happen. Hell, had they kept the alien utrom in Secret of the Ooze that would have opened the door to more weirdness beyond just mutants in an otherwise realistic setting and made time travel less insane in comparison.

I mean, Batman has also traveled through time and fought aliens in other worlds and dimensions.... you can't just up and make Batman Returns about Batman going through space and whatnot.

Even X-Men did it's time travel movie in what is essentially a part 5 to the series. Audiences probably wouldn't have taken too kindly to it if X2 was already throwing all that **** out there.

Powder
09-30-2015, 09:34 PM
The average movie goer would have been fans (children) who have, ya know, read a comic, watched an episode etc.

So your point doesn't really stand.

Coola Yagami
09-30-2015, 09:41 PM
The average movie goer would have been fans (children) who have, ya know, read a comic, watched an episode etc.

So your point doesn't really stand.

Yes it does. Almost every fictional character goes through all of that crap, time travel, other worlds/dimensions, evil clones, blah blah blah. Movie adaptations mostly stick to the core of the series, which in this case is TMNT VS the Foot Clan.

Again, Batman did all of that stuff and more, noone would have taken a Batman time travel story seriously if Batman Returns was about that. Hell, Venom in Spider-Man 3 was a jump since despite all the weird accidents, throwing aliens into the mix was too out there. Sure, that's how it was in the comics, but Spidey faces aliens, clones and demons every other week there. Nothing was established in the first 2 movies that aliens and whatnot were part of the equation.

Marvel dodged the bullet since their movies, right off the bat dealt with other worlds and alien invasions and people from different time periods and whatnot. Making a time travel movie with them wouldn't seen so outlandish.

Powder
09-30-2015, 11:44 PM
Every TMNT series starts off semi-grounded & becomes gradually more absurd & science-fictiony. So, still...

Coola Yagami
10-01-2015, 06:36 AM
Every TMNT series starts off semi-grounded & becomes gradually more absurd & science-fictiony. So, still...

But you gotta work your way up. Even the comics starred with the Turtles fighting foot ninjas on the rooftops before they saw the TCRI sign. And before that they fought killer robots. What works in comics doesn't work for movies unless you already have them fighting triceratoms in part 2 or something.

Powder
10-01-2015, 12:45 PM
Clearly it did work, considering it was a commercial success.

Metropoliskid41
10-01-2015, 02:01 PM
But you gotta work your way up. Even the comics starred with the Turtles fighting foot ninjas on the rooftops before they saw the TCRI sign. And before that they fought killer robots. What works in comics doesn't work for movies unless you already have them fighting triceratoms in part 2 or something.

"You gotta work your way up"....umm you mean like having 2 films prior fight nothing but foot ninjas then add the sci-fi Time travel element in the third film? Oh wait, that's exactly what they did.

Editor's Note Comics
10-01-2015, 02:37 PM
TMNT 2 changing TGRI to TCRI still makes me dislike the original movieverse. That's what was supposed to be the secret of the ooze (could still have been an accident), it's extraterrestrial origin!

At least that way it would have been a worthwhile secret. Compared to the secret that it came from a lab. What a twist!

ProactiveMan
10-02-2015, 03:46 AM
It's a shame they never made it to space.

Gaucelm
10-24-2015, 03:29 AM
They should have brought some cool monsters to fight the Turtles in TMNT III.

Here, there are just regular humans. It's just the Turtles in Feudal Japan. Not even much magic except the lantern.
And that's not much fun for the target audience.

(heck, even the comic book adaptation of the movie is an improvement!)

Of course, I am not saying much that is new under the sun...

Anyway, is there a definite reason why Bebop and Rocksteady were replaced by Tokka and Razar in TMNT II?
I have read a few times that it was because Laird and Eastman hated the idea of using Bebop and Rocksteady... (uh, whah?)
But a more credible option seems to be licensing/copyright stuff (considering Fred Wolf productions is apparently very protective of the elements it brought) ?

To quote James Rolfe:
"We were attached to the TV series and the line of action figures. So we wanted the movie to represent those characters."
"You have this huge stock pile of memorable villains from the comics, TV series, video games, the action figures, all that... and they just go ahead and bring you into uninspired, stereotyped, mediocre villains. I mean, come on! This is the best they could come up with?"

Powder
10-24-2015, 03:43 AM
Eastman & Laird refused because the characters were not their own & they found them to be corny/creatively bankrupt (sounds about right). There's also talk of them being too expensive to produce.

Gaucelm
10-24-2015, 04:14 AM
"Creatively bankrupt"... they used the same expression for the idea of a female Turtle when talking about the genesis of Mona Lisa... I wonder if that's their catchphrase or something! :lol:

The third movie is the one that can definitely be called "creatively bankrupt". I do not dislike it - strangely enough, I felt more entertained by it than the second one! Although another viewing might change my mind.

Xav
10-24-2015, 11:23 AM
Eastman & Laird refused because the characters were not their own & they found them to be corny/creatively bankrupt (sounds about right).But they were their characters as they created them. They just didn't like them.

Powder
10-24-2015, 11:54 AM
They submitted designs that were loosely referenced & they had nothing to do with their personalities. I don't think they feel any particular ownership or parental feelings towards them. :trazz:

Coola Yagami
10-24-2015, 01:24 PM
The main problem with the third movie was that it was 'a time travel movie', not necessarily a 'turtles time travel movie'. Honestly, it looked like someone tried to make a time travel movie, for whatever reason it bombed, but since they paid so much money for the sets and extra samurai actors and whatnot..... toss the Ninja Turtles in it and make it the third sequel!

Honestly, the movie wouldn't have been any different if any other people were the main protagonists, with the exception of a lot less pizza puns.

TigerClaw
10-24-2015, 01:43 PM
The main problem with the third movie was that it was 'a time travel movie', not necessarily a 'turtles time travel movie'. Honestly, it looked like someone tried to make a time travel movie, for whatever reason it bombed, but since they paid so much money for the sets and extra samurai actors and whatnot..... toss the Ninja Turtles in it and make it the third sequel!

Honestly, the movie wouldn't have been any different if any other people were the main protagonists, with the exception of a lot less pizza puns.
Its too bad they didn't do the time travel stuff like in the comics.

Gaucelm
10-24-2015, 01:49 PM
TMNT III is often referred as "TMNT III: Turtles In Time", a misnomer that made it to a DVD edition.

Imagine how awesome if the movie was based on the actual Turtles In Time video game.
Several settings for one story.

They could have still stayed for a while in ancient Japan and fight cool monsters such as...a Giant Enemy Crab! :lol: (sorry).

TigerClaw
10-24-2015, 04:52 PM
TMNT III is often referred as "TMNT III: Turtles In Time", a misnomer that made it to a DVD edition.

Imagine how awesome if the movie was based on the actual Turtles In Time video game.
Several settings for one story.

They could have still stayed for a while in ancient Japan and fight cool monsters such as...a Giant Enemy Crab! :lol: (sorry).
I would love for a proper Turtles in Time movie that featured Renet.

shuriken
10-25-2015, 12:07 PM
Renet would've been awesome, if not bats**t insane. I could imagine the costume, looooots of cleavage and legs. But meh. TMNT 3 was never going to be great to begin with so whatevs.
Can't really think of anything at the top of my head

sdp
10-25-2015, 05:08 PM
TMNT III has great ideas they're just executed badly. I like many aspects of the movie like the Time Travel, Ancient Japan, good fight scene, amusing present day antics, the Kappa. The story is just so stupid and boring.

For the Platinum Dunes movie it really isn't that big of a mess, change the appearance of the turtles slightly, don't link the turtles origin to April, have the Sachs/Shredder connection make a little more sense.
TMNT 2 changing TGRI to TCRI still makes me dislike the original movieverse. That's what was supposed to be the secret of the ooze (could still have been an accident), it's extraterrestrial origin!

Talk about a pointless edit, why did they even do it?

Powder
10-25-2015, 05:12 PM
Because TGRI was a real company who owned the rights to the namesake.

& if you like all that stuff that makes up the 3rd film, but not it's execution, I strongly suggest you read Vol. 1 #17 which is rather similar.

Coola Yagami
10-27-2015, 09:59 PM
Because TGRI was a real company who owned the rights to the namesake.

& if you like all that stuff that makes up the 3rd film, but not it's execution, I strongly suggest you read Vol. 1 #17 which is rather similar.

I always thought it was because the C in TCRI stood for Cosmic... but since the movie wasn't gonna go with the outer space/aliens/Utrom route, they changed to a G that stood for Global.

Powder
10-27-2015, 10:02 PM
Nah, but that logic made it a totally acceptable change for all involved.

LeotheLateBloomer
10-28-2015, 08:55 AM
Because TGRI was a real company who owned the rights to the namesake.

& if you like all that stuff that makes up the 3rd film, but not it's execution, I strongly suggest you read Vol. 1 #17 which is rather similar.

I believe the third movie was loosely based on issues #46 and #47. It's hard to find that many similarities with #17, but that's just me.

BubblyShell22
10-28-2015, 03:30 PM
Time travel wasn't the problem I had with the movie. The problem I had with the movie were the costumes and Splinter's voice, but with that aside, I enjoyed the third movie and thought it was fun.

Klunk1234
12-20-2015, 09:19 PM
The third movie was terrible, but not as bad in comparison with Next Mutation series.
And making Donnie dumb with those glasses and suspenders Steve Urkel style on next year's movie.

slingtheory
12-24-2015, 01:11 PM
Movie decisions someone should've been fired for? I kind of wish that whoever decided that the secret of the ooze needed to be toned down despite the fact that the first movie was a raging success would've promptly been told to get out. Oh and whoever decided the only thing missing from ninja turtles is the main characters being huge, and bulletproof, with superpowers. Seriously, **** whoever made that call.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
12-24-2015, 04:52 PM
Why would there be monsters in Japan?