Shifting power levels

[Yabuturtle]

Does anyone notice this like in the 1987 cartoon? I noticed that sometimes the villains will be very competent in some episodes and at other times, they end being push overs. I remember Shredder usually running away and fighting sometimes. Sometimes he would hold his own or get pushed aside or he would actually defeat them in combat, like in the episode The Incredible Shrinking Turtles. He actually defeated all 4 of them and rather easily. I remember Krang fighting both Don and Mike and doing quite well, tossing them aside, until both Turtles pushed themselves harder and eventually defeated him and in other episodes like Super Irma, he gets taken down by Leo with little effort.

Even with Bebop and Rocksteady, there were episodes were they were actually a threat and other times, they are just push overs, even being physically defeated in direct hand to hand combat. Although I heard Shredder is supposed to be more talented than the turtles and that only Splinter is on par with Shredder in most series.

I just find it weird on how these battles can be so inconsistent where one minute they are a serious threat and they are push overs in the next episode. xD

[mikey22]

Yup thats why I enjoyed sesaon 2 when shredder was pretty much left for his own the entire season.

[oldmanwinters]

There's a trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainDecay) for that...

[TurtleGuy]

There's a trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainDecay) for that...
I think he's talking more along the lines of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DependingOnTheWriter) one.

[neatoman]

Hey, remember that episode where Mikey became human? When he became human he lost his ability to fight, seemingly ignoring that his ability to fight comes from training and not being a mutant turtle. Not sure how well this relates to the topic but I might as well point it out.

[Yabuturtle]

Mikey also seemed to have lost a lot of strength as he didn't look physically fit either so he couldn't pull of the moves without being in good shape.

[snake]

Tmnt will never have consistant power levels lol. Maybe IDW but certainly none of the tv shows.

[MikeandRaph87]

Shredder, Krang, and General Tragg were the biggest violators of this. There eas also the seven villains who could have teamed with Shredder and Krang and could have defeated the Turtles and Splinter for good. How effective would Zach, April, and Irma be? No more than two hits will take each out. The reason for the inconsistency? The need to cater to a plot in a long running series.

[Yabuturtle]

Shredder, Krang, and General Tragg were the biggest violators of this. There eas also the seven villains who could have teamed with Shredder and Krang and could have defeated the Turtles and Splinter for good. How effective would Zach, April, and Irma be? No more than two hits will take each out. The reason for the inconsistency? The need to cater to a plot in a long running series.

In Night of the Rogues, all 7 were more than a match for the Turtles. Imagine if Bebop, Rocksteady, Shredder and Krang joined in. That would be tough for Turtles and they wouldn't stand a chance.

Unless they got help from Lotus, Mondo Gecko, The Punk Frogs, Casey Jones, Splinter and Usagi. I'm sure all of them could defeat Krang and company for sure if they all teamed up.

[oldmanwinters]

I think he's talking more along the lines of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DependingOnTheWriter) one.

Touche! :tcool:

But, ironically, two TMNT cartoons lead off the board for the Western Animation section of Villain Decay!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VillainDecay/WesternAnimation

[CyberCubed]

The original cartoon had like 10+ different writers. That along with the fact that a lot of episodes were more slapstick than real fighting...it makes it obvious why the Turtles struggle to beat Shredder in one episode and then in the next beat him by throwing a slice of pizza in his face.

[neatoman]

The original cartoon had like 10+ different writers. That along with the fact that a lot of episodes were more slapstick than real fighting...it makes it obvious why the Turtles struggle to beat Shredder in one episode and then in the next beat him by throwing a slice of pizza in his face.

Try 50+, 52 to be exact.

David Wise
Patti Howeth
Christy Marx
Larry Parr
Michael Reaves
Martin Pasko
Douglas Booth
Brynne Stephens
Richard Merwin
Reed Shelly
Bruce Shelly
Duane Capizzi
Steve Roberts
Francis Moss
Rowby Goren
Michael Edens
Mark Edens
Buzz Dixon
Bill Wolf
Gordon Bressack
Bob Schooley
Mark McCorkle
Doug Molitor
David Carren
Larry Carroll
Eliot Daro
Doug Molitor
James A. Davis
Misty Taggart
Ted Pedersen
Antonio Ortiz
Carmela Ortiz
George Shea
Martin Pasko
Dennis Marks
Jack Mendelsohn
Charles M. Howell IV
Dan DiStefano
Sean Roche
Dennis O'Flaherty
Michael Maurer
Gary Greenfield
Carole Mendelsohn
Marc Handler
Steve Granat
Cydne Clark
Matt Uitz
Lee Schneider
Matthew Malach
John Fox
Bob Forward
Jeffrey Scott

[CyberCubed]

You actually bothered to look that up, my god. A lot of those writers only wrote 1 or 2 episodes though.

But it goes to prove why the original cartoon was so inconsistent. You had all these writers doing their own thing and having no clue what the other writers were doing. So some writers were more silly or created plotholes.

David Wise tried to keep the show on track the best he could. The OT probably would have turned out better if he was given complete control over it like showrunners of cartoons do today.

[Wesley]

Yep, I first noticed this when watching the show as a kid.

[pferreira]

Try 50+, 52 to be exact.
[LIST=1]

Patti Howeth
She didn't write anything. This was confirmed by Wise.

[pferreira]

I have to admit from Season 4 - 6 Shredder and Krang felt like they were phoning it in but they got a lot better in Season 7 onwards.

[neatoman]

She didn't write anything. This was confirmed by Wise.

Well too bad that I don't trust Wise's word, nor should you or anyone else for that matter.

[Yabuturtle]

There was also the episode Krangenstein Lives, where Krang's robot body fights the Turtles. And the robot body actually defeated all 4 Turtles rather easily, yet all the times when Krang controlled the robot, he always had a harder time. That's what I find weird.

[GodzFire]

Night Of The Rogues was easily the biggest violation by far, and also one of the biggest blown opportunities for an epic episode ever.

A close second is Chrome Dome.

[pferreira]

Well too bad that I don't trust Wise's word, nor should you or anyone else for that matter.Why would you not trust what Wise says about his own scripts? :roll:

[Powder]

Probably because he lies, embellishes, & misremembers things.

[pferreira]

Probably because he lies, embellishes, & misremembers things.About what exactly? He stated he forgot to take his ex-girlfriend's name off the scripts.

[neatoman]

Why would you not trust what Wise says about his own scripts? :roll:

Because he's a liar, he claims multiple things that were already present in the comics or proven to have been decided by Playmates were his ideas when they clearly weren't. Even things in which he isn't contradicted, his explainations for how he decided on it still sounds farfetched and absurd. Not to mention the fact that the bastard is one of the most uncreative hacks I have ever seen work in television, the man is unable to write anything other than cliché stories which he then recycles for other scripts.

Given all these facts, I seriously doubt he's responisble for even half of what he claims!

About what exactly? He stated he forgot to take his ex-girlfriend's name off the scripts.

Like I explained, he's a damn glory hog.

[pferreira]

Because he's a liar, he claims multiple things that were already present in the comics or proven to have been decided by Playmates were his ideas when they clearly weren't. Even things in which he isn't contradicted, his explainations for how he decided on it still sounds farfetched and absurd. Not to mention the fact that the bastard is one of the most uncreative hacks I have ever seen work in television, the man is unable to write anything other than cliché stories which he then recycles for other scripts.

Given all these facts, I seriously doubt he's responisble for even half of what he claims!



Like I explained, he's a damn glory hog.I take it some resentment? Not sure what he's lied about exactly. Yeah he's overexaggerated stuff before, for instance he tends to get carried away with saying he created the Turtles when obviously he didn't. What he did do is develop the Turtles personalities where in the comics the Turtles didn't really have personalities. And you're right Playmates along with the creators did come up with the characters that featured in the first season but only really on a visual level. Wise was responsible for taking the toys he had to sell in the cartoon and giving the characters depth beyond how they looked.

I know you don't like to hear all this because you hate the Fred Wolf cartoon but it's the truth. And no he isn't a hack, his writing was always great since Buck Rogers. The Ninja Turtles episodes he wrote don't come across like they're from a hack writer at all. Wise knew (most of the time) what he was doing and I'm extremely thankful for the childhood memories of the Ninja Turtles he provided in the writing.

[neatoman]

I take it some resentment? Not sure what he's lied about exactly. Yeah he's overexaggerated stuff before, for instance he tends to get carried away with saying he created the Turtles when obviously he didn't. What he did do is develop the Turtles personalities where in the comics the Turtles didn't really have personalities. And you're right Playmates along with the creators did come up with the characters that featured in the first season but only really on a visual level. Wise was responsible for taking the toys he had to sell in the cartoon and giving the characters depth beyond how they looked.

I know you don't like to hear all this because you hate the Fred Wolf cartoon but it's the truth. And no he isn't a hack, his writing was always great since Buck Rogers. The Ninja Turtles episodes he wrote don't come across like they're from a hack writer at all. Wise knew (most of the time) what he was doing and I'm extremely thankful for the childhood memories of the Ninja Turtles he provided in the writing.

The turtles did have personalites in the comics, they just weren't in your face about all the time. The elements of their personalities were already in place, all Wise did was flatten and stretch them out, but credit still needs to go to Laird and Eastman. The thing about the toy characters, let's say Bebop and Rocksteady, is that they probably came with documents explaining how to write their personalities so Wise's involvemnt there might also be less than he claims, especially if the stories about adlibbing are true.

And David Wise is a hack, don't pretend otherwise. His scripts are cluttered and cliché, most of them just plagiarised from silver age comic books. Not to mention the fact that he is infamous for recycling these scripts over and over again.

The show in general is pretty poorly written and Wise certainly didn't help, episodes often feature characters sitting around doing nothing that progresses the plot and it's just boring. To be perfectly honest I don't think anyone who worked on the cared the least bit about what they were doing, David Wise included.

Anyway, the bottomline of this rant is that David Wise was lacked any real creative spark and certainly didn't take his job seriously enough to care.

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

[Powder]

I love the FW show but most of what neatoman said is true (beyond saying it's terrible, which is a subjective opinion).

[CyberCubed]

All cartoon writers rehash similar or old scripts from other shows. Ciro Nieli blatantly re-uses some old Teen Titans and Super Robot Monkey stories ideas in the Nick show, (the Wyrm episode especially is a perfect example of this).

So goes Greg Weisman for that matter. This is nothing strange for David Wise.

[CyberCubed]

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

And this all false. The show is very funny, most episodes are pretty entertaining, and the animation from an old 80's and early 90's show still looks pretty good this today if we're talking about the best animated episodes.

The show is nearly 30 years old, what do you expect the animation to look like?

[Wesley]

I love the FW show but most of what neatoman said is true (beyond saying it's terrible, which is a subjective opinion).

I still like parts of the 1987 cartoon, but I agree that most of what neatoman said is true. I haven't watched most of the series in years, but the show is boringly repetitive at times and David Wise did recycle a lot of plots. I thought he wrote some good episodes, though.

[Yabuturtle]

It would probably be best if we save this for another topic. Some think the 87 toon is garbage, others think it's great. I think it's a good cartoon. It has faults like any other toon but it was great for the time. Some of it's dated but still has funny jokes, especially 4th wall ones and the banter from Shredder and Krang alone could make a great spin off. xD

But in this topic, I just wonder how villains can be tough and then turn out to be wimps. Sometimes when they turn into wimps, they become threatening again. Bebop and Rocksteady for example shift back and forth. Becoming threats and then later push overs.

[Powder]

I still like parts of the 1987 cartoon, but I agree that most of what neatoman said is true. I haven't watched most of the series in years, but the show is boringly repetitive at times and David Wise did recycle a lot of plots. I thought he wrote some good episodes, though.

Some of it's good in spite of or even because of it's flaws, but to deny their existence is silly. :trazz: Sure, he's done a fair bit of good material, & absolutely deserves a certain amount of credit, but not anywhere near what he seems to feel he's owed.

[neatoman]

And this all false. The show is very funny, most episodes are pretty entertaining, and the animation from an old 80's and early 90's show still looks pretty good this today if we're talking about the best animated episodes.

The show is nearly 30 years old, what do you expect the animation to look like?

I expect any cartoon from any era to at the very least not be full of animation errors even a toddler would recognise at initial viewings, like these for example:
http://i.imgur.com/WsqSH24.png
http://i.imgur.com/fCyDH02.png
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/004.jpg

Errors such as these are plastered all over the show and it's something I don't believe should be considered acceptable within any standards, regardless of how old or low budgeted any given show is. Sure, some episodes like the Tempestra episde still look good but those aren't the majority or even a good chunk of the episodes. I don't expect modern or big budget quality animation, I just think consistency and quality control shouldn't be ignored like they obviously were.

As for the writing and comedy, most of the episode center around shrinking rays, freeze rays, body switching and other plots that were already considered cliché cartoon plots by 1987. It wouldn't have been so bad except for two factors that really drags it down:

The same plot devices (especially the shrinking ray) are used for several episode, making them cliché within the show itself.
The scripts are very rarely ever decently balanced, making most episodes either cluttered with side-plots or despererate to fill out time.

A perfect example of the show trying to fill time is "Turtles, Turtles, Everywhere", an episode with an already boring plot that has the Turtles spending the first half or so of the episode just cleaning their home, which has no impact on the rest of the episode. Another is "Snakes Alive!" in which all the Turtles except Leo are trapped and several scenes of the episode are dedicated to Don trying to unscrew the cage which didn't matter since Leo just came in to save them anyway.

The comedy might be the easiest to defend since it's a very subjective issue but I never liked the comedy, i always found it to be rather toothless and poorly timed. Not to mention that stupid running gag about pizza toppings, did anyone ever find that funny?

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, Wise is a fool. Raphael had his personality down in #1, with all the other turtles getting individual characterization in #2, if not very shortly after. Everyone was "themselves" by mid 1985 at the latest.

He's butthurt too. He talked trash on the Nick cartoon when interviewed on Andrew's podcast. He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.



So goes Greg Weisman for that matter. This is nothing strange for David Wise.

Did you seriously just compare Weisman to David Wise? I know you're the village idiot and all, but come on bro.

[Yabuturtle]

I'm guessing there's not too many that listened to me.:trolleye:

Am I seriously the only one noticing this? Let's please stay on topic.

[Powder]

Yeah, Wise is a fool. Raphael had his personality down in #1, with all the other turtles getting individual characterization in #2, if not very shortly after. Everyone was "themselves" by mid 1985 at the latest.

He's butthurt too. He talked trash on the Nick cartoon when interviewed on Andrew's podcast. He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.

Yeah, his whole shtick is sour grapes now. I should've gotten this that & the next thing, nobody's turtles are better than mine, blah blah blah. He can say whatever he wants about the Nick series but that creative teams' favorite iteration is Mirage, & despite all the Playmates influence & FW pandering they're sorta forced into doing, it shows.

[pferreira]

The turtles did have personalites in the comics, they just weren't in your face about all the time. The elements of their personalities were already in place, all Wise did was flatten and stretch them out, but credit still needs to go to Laird and Eastman. The thing about the toy characters, let's say Bebop and Rocksteady, is that they probably came with documents explaining how to write their personalities so Wise's involvemnt there might also be less than he claims, especially if the stories about adlibbing are true.No they didn't have personalities. Leonardo was a leader, Raphael was just angry, Donatello was gadget man and Michaelangelo was the young Turtle. Wise added to their personalities, fleshing them out and developed their identities, the comics adopted these new traits. Check that nostalgia you have, it's clouding your judgement.

And David Wise is a hack, don't pretend otherwise. His scripts are cluttered and cliché, most of them just plagiarised from silver age comic books. Not to mention the fact that he is infamous for recycling these scripts over and over again.

The show in general is pretty poorly written and Wise certainly didn't help, episodes often feature characters sitting around doing nothing that progresses the plot and it's just boring. To be perfectly honest I don't think anyone who worked on the cared the least bit about what they were doing, David Wise included.Wise again is not a hack and if you did a bit of research you'd discover a lot of the scripts by most writers generally were paying homage to 1950s sci-fi movies. Silver age comic books? Yeah right. :lol: I'm assuming Wise also did care about the show, he was heavily involved throughout and is still bitter about how the network treated him. Does that sound like someone who doesn't care?


Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.That's your opinion. I think it's a fine show and unlike you I'm happy to talk about in this part of the forum.

[pferreira]

He was all "you don't hear kids running around yelling 'booyuh casha' do ya?". Sounded like a ****ing clown.

Well you don't do you?

[Powder]

You're a joke.

[pferreira]

Yeah, his whole shtick is sour grapes now. I should've gotten this that & the next thing, nobody's turtles are better than mine, blah blah blah. He can say whatever he wants about the Nick series but that creative teams' favorite iteration is Mirage, & despite all the Playmates influence & FW pandering they're sorta forced into doing, it shows.Wise is probably more annoyed the network treated him like crap and he had a huge hand to bringing it to the TV. I think he's entitled to be annoyed. And everyone disses other people's work, Wise wasn't the first and he won't be the last.

[CyberCubed]

I expect any cartoon from any era to at the very least not be full of animation errors even a toddler would recognise at initial viewings, like these for example:

The first season was animated by TOEI, why don't you ask them since they're an anime company who produces shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon or One Piece?

Errors such as these are plastered all over the show and it's something I don't believe should be considered acceptable within any standards, regardless of how old or low budgeted any given show is. Sure, some episodes like the Tempestra episde still look good but those aren't the majority or even a good chunk of the episodes. I don't expect modern or big budget quality animation, I just think consistency and quality control shouldn't be ignored like they obviously were.

The bandana errors still don't affect the animation quality of an episode. You're looking for coloring errors, not the actual animation. The show is nearly 30 years old and holds up better than any other animation show from that time period.

As for the writing and comedy, most of the episode center around shrinking rays, freeze rays, body switching and other plots that were already considered cliché cartoon plots by 1987. It wouldn't have been so bad except for two factors that really drags it down:

And there's nothing wrong with these plots. They were all done a different way almost each time, and the actual plot of the episode to solve the problem was done differently each time. The episode where Shredder/Krang are trying to freeze the earth by draining the sun isn't anywhere similar to episodes where they shrink the Turtles or bring movie characters to life.

The plots are silly, sure, but that's the nature of the show. What's wrong with using ideas such as those in a show that's not intended to be a serious series?

Another is "Snakes Alive!" in which all the Turtles except Leo are trapped and several scenes of the episode are dedicated to Don trying to unscrew the cage which didn't matter since Leo just came in to save them anyway.

That was the joke. :roll: And that scene was less than 2 minutes, not "half the episode" or whatever you're trying to claim.

The comedy might be the easiest to defend since it's a very subjective issue but I never liked the comedy, i always found it to be rather toothless and poorly timed. Not to mention that stupid running gag about pizza toppings, did anyone ever find that funny?

Pizza topping jokes are what you're complaining about? A harmless gag that went on no more than a minute or less for an episode?

[neatoman]

No they didn't have personalities. Leonardo was a leader, Raphael was just angry, Donatello was gadget man and Michaelangelo was the young Turtle. Wise added to their personalities, fleshing them out and developed their identities, the comics adopted these new traits. Check that nostalgia you have, it's clouding your judgement.

Wise again is not a hack and if you did a bit of research you'd discover a lot of the scripts by most writers generally were paying homage to 1950s sci-fi movies. Silver age comic books? Yeah right. :lol: I'm assuming Wise also did care about the show, he was heavily involved throughout and is still bitter about how the network treated him. Does that sound like someone who doesn't care?

What the hell are you talking about? The personalities were established by the micros, that's basically the whole reason those exist, to flesh out the characters. The show just made them easier for small children grasp.

As for you still claiming Wise isn't a hack, you didn't adress any of my points about his recycling of plots or failures to write scripts that fit the meager 20 minute run time. Instead you pointed out that I got his inspiration wrong as it was 50's B-movies rather than silver age comics, which doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter if Wise pulled from 50's B-movies or Silver Age comics because they both tended to have plots that were already considred overused and worn out by 1987. I'm pretty sure most children at the time had already seen shrinking ray episodes in many shows before they even got to Turtles.

And it's worth pointing out that since most of the man's scripts were transcribed from the works of others and recycled for multiple uses, that shows he probably didn't care. Writing a third of the show doesn't mean much when you did it by cheating.

Sure, he might be butthurt over bad treatment, but when he runs around basically saying:

"Everything everyone loves about TMNT was all me! **** Eastman and Laird, **** Steve Murphy, **** Jim Lawson, **** Steve Barron, **** 4Kids Entertainment, **** Nickelodeon, **** IDW, **** the voice cast of the show I worked and **** my fellow writers! Despite just being one writer on a show with dozens, not being the original creator and the property having gone through multiple iterations that all deviate from my work in major ways, my version of it still matters the most and was never topped!"

That implies something far more despicable than a disgruntled ex-employee...

[CyberCubed]

As for you still claiming Wise isn't a hack, you didn't adress any of my points about his recycling of plots or failures to write scripts that fit the meager 20 minute run time. Instead you pointed out that I got his inspiration wrong as it was 50's B-movies rather than silver age comics, which doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter if Wise pulled from 50's B-movies or Silver Age comics because they both tended to have plots that were already considred overused and worn out by 1987. I'm pretty sure most children at the time had already seen shrinking ray episodes in many shows before they even got to Turtles.


Literally all cartoons rehash stories from old movies/comics/TV shows.

You're kidding yourself if you think what's going on in other cartoons is something "new and never done before."

[Yabuturtle]

Can I be a moderator? Not one moderator has shown up and said that this is getting way off topic.

Because it is. Does anyone really care which turtle series is better? We all have our tastes. In some ways the 87 toon is better than the 03 and 12 toon and vice versa. Nothing to get steamed up about.

I think it's best if we save this for another topic. Or just move on.

[neatoman]

The first season was animated by TOEI, why don't you ask them since they're an anime company who produces shows like Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon or One Piece?

I fail to how that's relevant.


The bandana errors still don't affect the animation quality of an episode. You're looking for coloring errors, not the actual animation. The show is nearly 30 years old and holds up better than any other animation show from that time period.


Two of them are much worse than simple soloring errors, the first one you should be able to what's wrong in a still image, the third was a layer error you'll really only notice when you see it in motion.


And there's nothing wrong with these plots. They were all done a different way almost each time, and the actual plot of the episode to solve the problem was done differently each time. The episode where Shredder/Krang are trying to freeze the earth by draining the sun isn't anywhere similar to episodes where they shrink the Turtles or bring movie characters to life.

Weren't there like five episodes of someone getting shrunken down? You don't think that's a little too much?


The plots are silly, sure, but that's the nature of the show. What's wrong with using ideas such as those in a show that's not intended to be a serious series?

The problem is not that they're silly, the problem is that it's the same crap again and again which we have seen in countless other cartoons and the show never did anything to push the bar for what could be done with them or really did anything all that different from any other cartoon.


That was the joke. :roll: And that scene was less than 2 minutes, not "half the episode" or whatever you're trying to claim.

That was the house cleaning in Turtles Everywhere I claimed went on for too long, the pointless break-out was more about how it's just the scene is boring filler. That's really my problem with both, they're boring filler scenes in 20 minute long cartoon episodes that are meant to be self contained, self contained tv episodes that are 20 minutes long should not need filler scenes.


Pizza topping jokes are what you're complaining about? A harmless gag that went on no more than a minute or less for an episode?
The running gag about pizza toppings was not funny, yet it was in most of the episodes and I just asked why a joke that wasn't especially funny in the first place needed to be repeated so often.

Literally all cartoons rehash stories from old movies/comics/TV shows.

You're kidding yourself if you think what's going on in other cartoons is something "new and never done before."
Yes, most cartoons do but I think this one did it too often and rather poorly.

[CyberCubed]

I fail to how that's relevant.

Because TOEI is a popular anime company and at the same time in 1987 they were producing the Dragonball anime. You're talking about a professional Japanese animation studio who made the mistakes.

Weren't there like five episodes of someone getting shrunken down? You don't think that's a little too much?

There was the main episode where they get shrunk in Season 2, and the only other one I can think of is that filler ep where some guy who collects boats shrunk Michaelangelo down. I agree that second episode was fairly boring, but it was from some random writer. I don't think there's any other episode.

The problem is not that they're silly, the problem is that it's the same crap again and again which we have seen in countless other cartoons and the show never did anything to push the bar for what could be done with them or really did anything all that different from any other cartoon.

These are all staples of superhero cartoons though. Even JLU did a body transfer plot between Flash and Lex Luthor, and that episode aired in 2006! And as I said, the actual plots of the episodes and how the episodes reached their conclusion was different each time.

The episode where the Earth was being pulled toward the sun and everything was heating up was completely different from the episode where they were flooding New York with ocean water making it a sunken city. The Turtles didn't always break into the Technodrome every ep, they did different things and the destination from point A to point B was always different.

Again, I know these are silly plots that wouldn't fly in a more serious cartoon, but again, the OT wasn't trying to be a serious show so it didn't matter.

That was the house cleaning in Turtles Everywhere I claimed went on for too long, the pointless break-out was more about how it's just the scene is boring filler. That's really my problem with both, they're boring filler scenes in 20 minute long cartoon episodes that are meant to be self contained, self contained tv episodes that are 20 minutes long should not need filler scenes.

While I don't remember that episode too well, the OT didn't have long extended fight scenes like modern shows have so they filled the scenes with other common household stuff. Even then I don't remember it being too common in other episodes. I have no problem seeing the Turtles rent VHS tapes to watch monster movies, etc...it makes them look "normal" like they're not just sitting around waiting for Shredder to take over the world again.

The 2k3 series also showed them have leisure moments in the lair not really doing anything important like Mike bagging comics or playing videogames.

The running gag about pizza toppings was not funny, yet it was in most of the episodes and I just asked why a joke that wasn't especially funny in the first place needed to be repeated so often.

This wasn't in every episode, and when it was it was always brief and went by quickly. Most cartoons of that era had running gags that were repeated. I'd love to see what you think of the Pokemon anime since it does the same exact thing.

Yes, most cartoons do but I think this one did it too often and rather poorly.

The original cartoon came out in 1987, DC/Marvel comics were only just starting to get serious at the time (1986 was when DC had their crisis for example), and look at Superfriends that aired in the early 80's, or the old 80's Spiderman cartoon. Those shows had awful animation, dull plots, and main characters with no personality. Batman and Superman had the same personality in Superfriends, you could not tell the difference. All the Turtles and villains all had distinct and unique personalities in the original cartoon.

[pferreira]

What the hell are you talking about? The personalities were established by the micros, that's basically the whole reason those exist, to flesh out the characters. The show just made them easier for small children grasp.If I look at Issues 5-8 I don't see where all this personality you talk about exists. You have a good point about the micro series, I never thought about that but it wasn't part of the ongoing series so I can't really count that.

As for you still claiming Wise isn't a hack, you didn't adress any of my points about his recycling of plots or failures to write scripts that fit the meager 20 minute run time. Instead you pointed out that I got his inspiration wrong as it was 50's B-movies rather than silver age comics, which doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter if Wise pulled from 50's B-movies or Silver Age comics because they both tended to have plots that were already considred overused and worn out by 1987. I'm pretty sure most children at the time had already seen shrinking ray episodes in many shows before they even got to Turtles.

And it's worth pointing out that since most of the man's scripts were transcribed from the works of others and recycled for multiple uses, that shows he probably didn't care. Writing a third of the show doesn't mean much when you did it by cheating.He cared enough to write finales, he cared enough that he ended up being forced to leave because he didn't like how the network wanted the Turtles written. And I still don't understand where all this talk about recycling scripts comes from. Yeah ok Wise is known to reuse his own past ideas but he always does something differently with his ideas. Most writers are like that. Not sure why you're singling him out over other writers. Also his script ideas couldn't really be considered "overused and worn out" if they were homages right? In today's movies and cartoons people reference stuff like the 80s Turtles or Ghostbusters, He-Man whatever. I didn't mean little references, I mean they say they want to create the next Ninja Turtles or Ghostbusters through structure and content.

Sure, he might be butthurt over bad treatment, but when he runs around basically saying:

"Everything everyone loves about TMNT was all me! **** Eastman and Laird, **** Steve Murphy, **** Jim Lawson, **** Steve Barron, **** 4Kids Entertainment, **** Nickelodeon, **** IDW, **** the voice cast of the show I worked and **** my fellow writers! Despite just being one writer on a show with dozens, not being the original creator and the property having gone through multiple iterations that all deviate from my work in major ways, my version of it still matters the most and was never topped!"

That implies something far more despicable than a disgruntled ex-employee...Ok yeah Wise does tend to exaggerate his involvement but again like I said it's because the show meant a lot to him. I mean he wrote for it for 9 years! Of course he feels an entitlement over it. Also some of his views regarding the 80s series totally go against your perception of him. One example off the top of my head is him not being happy with Jack Mendelsohn adding more comedy to the show, making it more family friendly so he actually agrees with you about there being too much comedy in the show.

[ToTheNines]

If I look at Issues 5-8 I don't see where all this personality you talk about exists. You have a good point about the micro series, I never thought about that but it wasn't part of the ongoing series so I can't really count that.

They've been collected with 1-11 at every turn and are absolutely part of the ongoing narrative. You're officially reaching.

[Powder]

Yeah, their events are directly referenced/continued in the otherwise numbered issues.

[neatoman]

If I look at Issues 5-8 I don't see where all this personality you talk about exists. You have a good point about the micro series, I never thought about that but it wasn't part of the ongoing series so I can't really count that.

Uh, no. As already stated by ToTheNines and Powder, the micros certainly count.


He cared enough to write finales, he cared enough that he ended up being forced to leave because he didn't like how the network wanted the Turtles written. And I still don't understand where all this talk about recycling scripts comes from. Yeah ok Wise is known to reuse his own past ideas but he always does something differently with his ideas. Most writers are like that. Not sure why you're singling him out over other writers. Also his script ideas couldn't really be considered "overused and worn out" if they were homages right? In today's movies and cartoons people reference stuff like the 80s Turtles or Ghostbusters, He-Man whatever. I didn't mean little references, I mean they say they want to create the next Ninja Turtles or Ghostbusters through structure and content.

Ok yeah Wise does tend to exaggerate his involvement but again like I said it's because the show meant a lot to him. I mean he wrote for it for 9 years! Of course he feels an entitlement over it. Also some of his views regarding the 80s series totally go against your perception of him. One example off the top of my head is him not being happy with Jack Mendelsohn adding more comedy to the show, making it more family friendly so he actually agrees with you about there being too much comedy in the show.

David Wise's scripts don't just happen to be sort of similair to each other, they're undeniably recycled. If have the time you can compare the following of TV episodes that he scripted:

Transformers, Kremzeek
TMNT, The Big ZIPP Attack
Mighty Ducks, Zap Attack

All three are way too similar to just be cute little homages.

[pferreira]

They've been collected with 1-11 at every turn and are absolutely part of the ongoing narrative. You're officially reaching.Well it's kind of weird, I never noticed the huge character development in the early issues. As I said Wise brought much more than as was in the comics. A lot of what personality was in the 80s cartoon was then integrated into the Mirage comics, then taken for the other media. Remember this is the mid-1980s and Turtles was still pretty new. The groundwork hadn't been laid out yet.

[pferreira]

David Wise's scripts don't just happen to be sort of similair to each other, they're undeniably recycled. If have the time you can compare the following of TV episodes that he scripted:

Transformers, Kremzeek
TMNT, The Big ZIPP Attack
Mighty Ducks, Zap Attack

All three are way too similar to just be cute little homages.When you are writing hours of TV yeah you're going to recycle scripts. Planet of the Turtles vs Planet of the Turtleloids is an example. But when you have 65 episodes to write it can happen. It's not unknown in TV for writers working on multiple projects to reuse ideas. I mean Douglas Adams is seen as a genius but he recycled a lot of his Hitchhiker ideas with Doctor Who. It's not uncommon. I'm sure they're lots of other writers who do that. Star Trek did it all the time, does that mean it's full of hack writers? :roll:

[neatoman]

When you are writing hours of TV yeah you're going to recycle scripts. Planet of the Turtles vs Planet of the Turtleloids is an example. But when you have 65 episodes to write it can happen. It's not unknown in TV for writers working on multiple projects to reuse ideas. I mean Douglas Adams is seen as a genius but he recycled a lot of his Hitchhiker ideas with Doctor Who. It's not uncommon. I'm sure they're lots of other writers who do that. Star Trek did it all the time, does that mean it's full of hack writers? :roll:

Planet of the Turtles and Planet of the Turtleloids had different writers, similarites are probably unintentional, so I don't have the same problem with that.

There's nothing wrong with using the same ideas but Wise didn't just reuse ideas, he reused the scripts themselves. The three episodes listed aren't just similar, they're the same, beat for beat.

[Powder]

A lot of what personality was in the 80s cartoon was then integrated into the Mirage comics, then taken for the other media. Remember this is the mid-1980s and Turtles was still pretty new. The groundwork hadn't been laid out yet.

Utter horse sh*t. You're a reprehensible FW fanboy.

[Wesley]

It would probably be best if we save this for another topic. Some think the 87 toon is garbage, others think it's great. I think it's a good cartoon. It has faults like any other toon but it was great for the time. Some of it's dated but still has funny jokes, especially 4th wall ones and the banter from Shredder and Krang alone could make a great spin off. xD

But in this topic, I just wonder how villains can be tough and then turn out to be wimps. Sometimes when they turn into wimps, they become threatening again. Bebop and Rocksteady for example shift back and forth. Becoming threats and then later push overs.

I agree with what Yabuturtle said in the first paragraph. We need to get back on topic. I think the reason why the villains seem threatening in one episode and a joke in another one is down to different writers. It is odd to see Shredder protrayed as a serious threat in Ninja Sword of Nowhere and shown to be a joke in Mutagen Monster.

[Yabuturtle]

I agree with what Yabuturtle said in the first paragraph. We need to get back on topic. I think the reason why the villains seem threatening in one episode and a joke in another one is down to different writers. It is odd to see Shredder protrayed as a serious threat in Ninja Sword of Nowhere and shown to be a joke in Mutagen Monster.

Thank you! It is very nice to know someone listened! :D

It is most likely due to different writers. Thankfully in the red sky season Shredder and company became a little more threatening. I do wish Krang had his android body in the red sky season. We probably could have seen him toss the turtles around, change his hands into so many weapons and even grow to the size of Godzilla again.

General Tragg however was pretty consistent. About every time the Turtles fought him, they always struggled against him.

[CyberCubed]

I want this thread locked right now.

[ToTheNines]

Well it's kind of weird, I never noticed the huge character development in the early issues. As I said Wise brought much more than as was in the comics. A lot of what personality was in the 80s cartoon was then integrated into the Mirage comics, then taken for the other media. Remember this is the mid-1980s and Turtles was still pretty new. The groundwork hadn't been laid out yet.

You ain't gotta lie dude. Mirage WAS the groundwork. David Wise and company certainly had some original ideas and added to the mythos, but they did not invent the TMNT.

Even if you want to make believe that Mirage turtles didn't have personalities until 1991 or whatever, outside of the archetypes Mirage Leo is very different from FW Leo, Mirage Raph is very different from FW Raph, etc. etc. all the way down the cast list.

Utter horse sh*t. You're a reprehensible FW fanboy.

Yup yup.

[neatoman]

I want this thread locked right now.

http://2static2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5558459+_d0dd238f6f92dbc7af41854a8b828051.png

[ToTheNines]

I want this thread locked right now.

Wish in one hand, sh*t in the other..





And then eat the sh*t.

[TurtleGuy]

How did we go from talking about shifting power levels to yet another Fred Wolf vs Mirage argument?

Seriously, guys. What the hell?

[Candy Kappa]

I think it's less FW vs Mirage, and more how much of a jerk-wad Wise was for claiming to be the "true" creator of Ninja Turtles.

[Yabuturtle]

That's I've been trying to say! Most of these guys went nuts over it! That's why I suggested making another thread discussing it. Although there's been threads discussing it anyway but whatever. We all got our different tastes and probably aren't going to change our minds anytime soon. It is time to move on.

General Tragg I have to say is the most consistent one. He always gave the Turtles a hard time.

[Powder]

David Wise and company certainly had some original ideas and added to the mythos, but they did not invent the TMNT.

Even if you want to make believe that Mirage turtles didn't have personalities until 1991 or whatever, outside of the archetypes Mirage Leo is very different from FW Leo, Mirage Raph is very different from FW Raph, etc. etc. all the way down the cast list.


Yeah, & they certainly weren't adapted in Mirage, either. Both mocked & homaged, but not integrated as part of their personalities.

Pizza dude-bro is a novelist, mad scientist is a cynic, wisecracker is roid-rage, & fearless leader is Splinter Jr.

[pferreira]

Utter horse sh*t. You're a reprehensible FW fanboy.
I'm guessing you're a reprehensible Mirage fanboy? :lol:

[CyberCubed]

Some of you really need some good discipline. Why can't you all stop bickering?

[ToTheNines]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSBXdWIK11iKU_sg1318BrreCK2dyea LzMBrWF3oSSV86wzv6H5w

[pferreira]

You ain't gotta lie dude. Mirage WAS the groundwork. David Wise and company certainly had some original ideas and added to the mythos, but they did not invent the TMNT.

Even if you want to make believe that Mirage turtles didn't have personalities until 1991 or whatever, outside of the archetypes Mirage Leo is very different from FW Leo, Mirage Raph is very different from FW Raph, etc. etc. all the way down the cast list.



Yup yup.I didn't once say David Wise created TMNT, I said he developed and fleshed out their personalities where in the early comics up until 1987 (NOT 1991) it was limited. But yeah they have used the personalities of the Fred Wolf Turtles on successive incarnations of the Turtles. I totally wouldn't agree with Wise about exaggerating his involvement with TMNT (that goes against him) but then he added so much to the show so I really don't understand why apparently everything he's ever said is a lie and we shouldn't believe him. I mean if we can't trust the writers to tell the truth what are we doing? Making up whatever truth satisfies us because people on this site who hate the FW cartoon don't want anybody to think successive incarnations of TMNT took stuff creatively from this cartoon. I'm not just talking the style, I mean the writing as well. I think instead of blacklisting stuff while rolling their eyes some fans should just try to see the creative contribution every version of TMNT has made, yes even the Fred Wolf cartoon.

[ToTheNines]

Dude, I love the Fred Wolf cartoon. I'm currently watching through season 4, just finished "The Big Cufflink Caper" mere hours ago, and I've been through the whole thing multiple times.

I was exaggerating about the '91 thing and the creator comment, but the fact remains that Wise cannot be credited with assigning the basic archetypes to each turtle and Mirage was never directly influenced by the cartoon outside of gags.

[Wesley]

General Tragg I have to say is the most consistent one. He always gave the Turtles a hard time.

I agree about General Tragg. The fact that he held his own against the Turtles made his rare appearances even more impressive.

[CyberCubed]

I agree about General Tragg. The fact that he held his own against the Turtles made his rare appearances even more impressive.

His appearance in the Season 6 opener, "Rock around the Block" is my favorite episode with him.

His final episode was in Season 8 where he reports the Technodrome got stuck in a black hole. A shame the show ended without a final battle with him. They do fight the Rock Soldiers one last time in the Season 8 finale though.

[neatoman]

I'm guessing you're a reprehensible Mirage fanboy? :lol:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/2d73ab654fa936f51700496d20ed47a7/tumblr_inline_mm8xa6yLsC1qz4rgp.gif

Oh yeah! Mirage studios incorporated so much from the Fred Wolf cartoon! Remember all those Mirage stories with Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome, Dimension X, Burne, Vernon, Irma, April becoming a newsreporter, Shredder coming back to life in order to build a shrinking ray, the Punk Frogs, Pizza Monsters, Robotic Foot Ninja, Rock Soldiers and the constant fourth wall jokes?

Oh wait, None of that happened!!!

You know why? Because the writers and artists did not want to pull from the show! If they wanted, it would have become far more similar than simply characterisation.

[Powder]

I'm guessing you're a reprehensible Mirage fanboy? :lol:

I like how you're completely ignoring the fact I have FW Leo as my avatar. :roll:

[Yabuturtle]

I agree about General Tragg. The fact that he held his own against the Turtles made his rare appearances even more impressive.

He seemed to be the toughest, which makes me wonder, why didn't he call the shots instead of Shredder and Krang, and he was the most competent as well as the most loyal member. He never once betrayed anyone while Shredder, Krang, Baxter Stockman Bebop and Rocksteady all betrayed each other at some point in time.

I wish Tragg was with the Rock Soldiers in the episode Turtle Trek so we could have a final battle with the tmnt and Tragg.

[Wesley]

He seemed to be the toughest, which makes me wonder, why didn't he call the shots instead of Shredder and Krang, and he was the most competent as well as the most loyal member. He never once betrayed anyone while Shredder, Krang, Baxter Stockman Bebop and Rocksteady all betrayed each other at some point in time.

I wish Tragg was with the Rock Soldiers in the episode Turtle Trek so we could have a final battle with the tmnt and Tragg.

I think Tragg didn't call the shots because the Rock Soldiers and him were created by Krang or he preferred to take orders instead.

It would have liked if Tragg had fought the Turtles alongside the Rock Soldiers in Turtle Trek as well. There was a missed opportunity for them to fight the tmnt together in Shredder Triumphant when they were patrolling the city.

[pferreira]

I like how you're completely ignoring the fact I have FW Leo as my avatar. :roll:I figured it was more a love/hate relationship you have with the show. I despise you so much yet you're so irresistible. :D

[pferreira]

Oh yeah! Mirage studios incorporated so much from the Fred Wolf cartoon! Remember all those Mirage stories with Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome, Dimension X, Burne, Vernon, Irma, April becoming a newsreporter, Shredder coming back to life in order to build a shrinking ray, the Punk Frogs, Pizza Monsters, Robotic Foot Ninja, Rock Soldiers and the constant fourth wall jokes?

I'm talking about their personalities. They were developed more in the FW cartoon. Mikey is the laidback party dude but where do we know that from? The Mirage comic? Also nearly everything you've mentioned has been done or used in successive Turtles iterations whether it's the IDW comic, the 4Kids series, the Nick series etc. So yeah someone obviously did something creatively right for that stuff to stick with fans...just not for you...

By the way in which episode are you referring to with Shredder coming back to life and building a shrinking ray?

[Xav]

Remember all those Mirage stories with Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome, Dimension X, Burne, Vernon, Irma, April becoming a newsreporter, Shredder coming back to life in order to build a shrinking ray, the Punk Frogs, Pizza Monsters, Robotic Foot Ninja, Rock Soldiers and the constant fourth wall jokes?

Oh wait, None of that happened!!!April actually did become a reporter in Mirage issue 32.

[neatoman]

April actually did become a reporter in Mirage issue 32.

Well OK, there's that but it was just a weird out of continuity story made by a guest creator.

I'm talking about their personalities. They were developed more in the FW cartoon. Mikey is the laidback party dude but where do we know that from? The Mirage comic? Also nearly everything you've mentioned has been done or used in successive Turtles iterations whether it's the IDW comic, the 4Kids series, the Nick series etc. So yeah someone obviously did something creatively right for that stuff to stick with fans...just not for you...

By the way in which episode are you referring to with Shredder coming back to life and building a shrinking ray?

Ahem...
http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/mike/mike01.gif
http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/mike/mike02.gif
http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/mike/mike04.gif
Released about two years before the cartoon.

And yes, most of that was used later on but not in the Mirage Studios comics (with a few non-canon exceptions written by guest creators). As for Shredder coming back to life to make a shrinking ray, it was a joke about how he wasn't the main villain the comics and the show didn't change that, like how the comics didn't try to emulate the show, which you stubbornly imply it did.

[shuriken]

I figured it was more a love/hate relationship you have with the show. I despise you so much yet you're so irresistible. :D

LOL. But yeah all the writers made so many continuity errors in terms of "power levels" that it just depends on the episode.
But no, Wise did not create the character traits, just made them a bit more stereotypical (except maybe Sarcasta-Raph). Still appreciate it for what it is, although the coloring errors always irked me as a kid even.

[CyberCubed]

The coloring errors are all because of Korean and other Asian animation studios. People fail to realize cartoons aren't animated in America. They animated them in cheap Asian animation studios where the workers are page below minimum wage and no benefits.

[pferreira]

The coloring errors are all because of Korean and other Asian animation studios. People fail to realize cartoons aren't animated in America. They animated them in cheap Asian animation studios where the workers are page below minimum wage and no benefits.That's the one thing I have trouble defending. Bill Wolf should have done more with quality control. The animation style for Return of the Shredder was what they were always aiming for but only half the time they managed that due to different animation studios.

[pferreira]

But no, Wise did not create the character traits, just made them a bit more stereotypical (except maybe Sarcasta-Raph). Yeah I mean it was there already in the comics but Wise developed them a bit more. At least that's what I feel. :cry: Also probably helped the Turtles had different coloured bandanas. While that was more for marketing it helped identify the characters more. The shifting power levels was more to do with the writers not having an overall story arc. They couldn't make Shredder and co too powerful too quickly as the writers didn't know how much longer they'd have to keep the villains around for. From this point of view keeping them a constant threat posed a problem. It's probably one of the main reasons for them appearing in every other episode from Season 4 onwards.

[Prowler]

The turtles did have personalites in the comics, they just weren't in your face about all the time. The elements of their personalities were already in place, all Wise did was flatten and stretch them out, but credit still needs to go to Laird and Eastman. The thing about the toy characters, let's say Bebop and Rocksteady, is that they probably came with documents explaining how to write their personalities so Wise's involvemnt there might also be less than he claims, especially if the stories about adlibbing are true.

And David Wise is a hack, don't pretend otherwise. His scripts are cluttered and cliché, most of them just plagiarised from silver age comic books. Not to mention the fact that he is infamous for recycling these scripts over and over again.

The show in general is pretty poorly written and Wise certainly didn't help, episodes often feature characters sitting around doing nothing that progresses the plot and it's just boring. To be perfectly honest I don't think anyone who worked on the cared the least bit about what they were doing, David Wise included.

Anyway, the bottomline of this rant is that David Wise was lacked any real creative spark and certainly didn't take his job seriously enough to care.

Don't confuse your fuzzy nostalgic feelings for clever or charming writing. It's fine if you like it for nostalgic reasons but it's not a good show, it's objectively terrible! It's boring to follow, unfunny in it's comedy and ugly to look at.

David Wise wrote the best episodes of the show. He was also the one who wrote the highest amount of episodes. Michael Reeves comes as a close second. I really liked Shredderville.

And yes, Wise clearly credits himself too much and sounds like a bitter arrogant hasbeen.

As for people not being invested or caring much about the show itself, well it was never meant to be a serious show with a continuous plot. That's how action cartoons were like back in the day. And in seasons 3 and 4, so many episodes were coming out that the creative team must have gotten burnt out. Are you including the voice cast in this, by the way? Because if you are I can't agree with you. the voice cast clearly was into it, hence why it's still fondly remembered after all these years. Their chemistry was pretty good.

Boring and unfunny? Well, that's your opinion and I disagree with it. It's true that it seemed like a better show when we were kids and that it's clearly dated, animation-wise, plot-wise and formula-wise. But I wouldn't call it a bad show or unfunny. Raphael's lines are still gold after all these year.s In fact, some of his jokes seem funnier to me as an adult than they did back when I was a kid.

And this all false. The show is very funny, most episodes are pretty entertaining, and the animation from an old 80's and early 90's show still looks pretty good this today if we're talking about the best animated episodes.

The show is nearly 30 years old, what do you expect the animation to look like?

Yea, most episodes are entertaining to some degree. Even the not so great ones. In fact, for a 194 episode series, it didn't really have that many definite "bad" episodes. That being said, the series should have been 20-30 episodes shorter, in my opinion.

Yeah, & they certainly weren't adapted in Mirage, either. Both mocked & homaged, but not integrated as part of their personalities.

Pizza dude-bro is a novelist, mad scientist is a cynic, wisecracker is roid-rage, & fearless leader is Splinter Jr.

That's a very good description of the Mirage Turtles' personalities. The best one I've read thus far. Short and straight to the point. :)

[pferreira]

David Wise wrote the best episodes of the show. He was also the one who wrote the highest amount of episodes. Michael Reeves comes as a close second. I really liked Shredderville.

I was under the impression Shredderville was written by Francis Moss? I mean I bought a copy of his script off him along with Splinter Vanishes which he also wrote. But anyway apart from Wise and Reaves some of the writers like Moss did do some great work on the show it's just those three were the most dependable ones.

[Prowler]

I was under the impression Shredderville was written by Francis Moss? I mean I bought a copy of his script off him along with Splinter Vanishes which he also wrote. But anyway apart from Wise and Reaves some of the writers like Moss did do some great work on the show it's just those three were the most dependable ones.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Now that I think of it, it was either Moss or Reaves who wrote it.

Neither came close to the amount of episodes David Wise wrote, anyway. Although I suspect that Wise has only written about 10 scripts and then recycled then throughout his career :tshifty:

[TurtleGuy]

It's funny how sometimes you'll get inconsistent power levels within the same episodes.

Like in "The Old Switcheroo" One minute you'll have Bebop struggling to lift a box and the next he's swinging Mikey by the other end of his nunchucks and tossing him like a sack of potatoes with ease with just one arm.

[ToTheNines]

Hmm, maybe you're right. Now that I think of it, it was either Moss or Reaves who wrote it.

Neither came close to the amount of episodes David Wise wrote, anyway. Although I suspect that Wise has only written about 10 scripts and then recycled then throughout his career :tshifty:

It was Moss. Pretty much anything with Zach in it was by Moss.

[TMNTInsighter]

Does anyone notice this like in the 1987 cartoon? I noticed that sometimes the villains will be very competent in some episodes and at other times, they end being push overs. I remember Shredder usually running away and fighting sometimes. Sometimes he would hold his own or get pushed aside or he would actually defeat them in combat, like in the episode The Incredible Shrinking Turtles. He actually defeated all 4 of them and rather easily. I remember Krang fighting both Don and Mike and doing quite well, tossing them aside, until both Turtles pushed themselves harder and eventually defeated him and in other episodes like Super Irma, he gets taken down by Leo with little effort.

Even with Bebop and Rocksteady, there were episodes were they were actually a threat and other times, they are just push overs, even being physically defeated in direct hand to hand combat. Although I heard Shredder is supposed to be more talented than the turtles and that only Splinter is on par with Shredder in most series.

I just find it weird on how these battles can be so inconsistent where one minute they are a serious threat and they are push overs in the next episode. xD

The combat for the series as well as the Nickelodeon one (and MAYBE sometimes for the 2003 series) is more or less just a function of the plot. I try not to read too much into it myself a lot.

[Prowler]

It was Moss. Pretty much anything with Zach in it was by Moss.
Really? Interesting, never noticed that.

Maybe Zach was his idea? Well screw him, then :lol:

[pferreira]

Really? Interesting, never noticed that.

Maybe Zach was his idea? Well screw him, then :lol:Yeah I know it's Moss who wrote the episode because I bought a copy of his script. :P