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View Full Version : 4 year old child falls into gorilla habitat


Sage Ninja
06-02-2016, 12:05 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/toddler-fell-gorialla-cage-cincinnati-zoo-article-1.2653278

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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/toddler-fell-gorialla-cage-cincinnati-zoo-article-1.2653278

wow this is such a sad story. This is just all around tragic, I don't think there was any other option than to kill this poor gorilla and I think the zoo people gave a reasonable explanation as to why they could not use tranquilizers, although I am sad it had to be killed. I'm glad that four year old boy is not seriously harmed, this would be a completely different story if the boy had been killed by this gorilla.

I know this boys parents are experiencing some media backlash for not watching their son more closely, but I am on the fence about it. Sometimes the most attentive parents can look away for a second and boom their kid is in danger/trouble. But then some witnesses (I don't know how reliable they are) said the four year old was talking to the mother saying that he wanted to swim with the gorilla and the mother said no, and that the kid deliberately climbed into the gorilla pen. Several people on face book and twitter are crucifying the boys parents.

Powder
06-02-2016, 12:09 AM
There are billions of people, very few gorillas by comparison. This was a mistake.

Turo602
06-02-2016, 12:44 AM
As unfortunate as the situation was, I honestly don't get how anyone can think that risking the life of a 4 year old boy for an endangered animal makes any sense. Yeah, it shouldn't have happened to begin with but guess what, sh*t happens. You can blame the parents all you want, maybe they were at fault, maybe they weren't. None of us know, we weren't there and we don't know them. But what we do know is that a child's life was in danger. It's easy for anyone to sit their ass behind a keyboard and see other fellow human beings as just another number yet we all know they'd be singing a totally different f*ckin' tune if that was one of their loved ones in any life-threatening situation.

Powder
06-02-2016, 12:51 AM
It's easy for anyone to sit their ass behind a keyboard and see other fellow human beings as just another number yet we all know they'd be singing a totally different f*ckin' tune if that was one of their loved ones in any life-threatening situation.

y u mad tho

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 12:58 AM
The kid wasn't in any real danger, but to be honest, if we're looking at things objectively, the gorilla is more important than the kid.

People are 8billion strong, there are less than 800 gorillas alive.

**** the kid, and his parents, and the idiot that shot the gorilla. **** the zoo in general.

You could literally lose all the attendees at the zoo that day, and still not make any real dent in humanity.

We worry about humans far more than we should.

It was the murder of an innocent.


Zoos shouldn't exist in the first place. It's wrong.

Turo602
06-02-2016, 12:59 AM
y u mad tho

I ain't mad. Just being logical. The cursing is for emphasis.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 01:02 AM
I ain't mad. Just being logical. The cursing is for emphasis.

Emphasis on being wrong.

Turo602
06-02-2016, 01:04 AM
Emphasis on being wrong.

You're right. F*ck you and your family. Humanity will go on without you. That's all that matters right?

Powder
06-02-2016, 01:06 AM
The kid wasn't in any real danger, but to be honest, if we're looking at things objectively, the gorilla is more important than the kid.

People are 8billion strong, there are less than 800 gorillas alive.

**** the kid, and his parents, and the idiot that shot the gorilla. **** the zoo in general.

You could literally lose all the attendees at the zoo that day, and still not make any real dent in humanity.

We worry about humans far more than we should.

It was the murder of an innocent.


Zoos shouldn't exist in the first place. It's wrong.

Beer's on me if we ever meet.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 01:36 AM
You're right. F*ck you and your family. Humanity will go on without you. That's all that matters right?

It would, sadly. I'm not in a hurry to go, given this is the only life we get, and I'm as human as you are, and therefore irresponsibly selfish, but if you're objective, like I said, being human doesn't translate to MVP, and the world really doesn't need me, or my family. If you let yourself, you begin to see that you, as a living breathing thing, contribute nothing of value to the ecosystem; you only damage it. You are, as they say, a runaway causality, bound by spacetime, destroying everything, only to create more you. We are a successful species, thanks to our aggression, and selfishness; fortunately these are the same two traits that will resolve us.

But rock on brother, keep on that self righteous path, as usual.

Beer's on me if we ever meet.
You're one of the few here, where I'd reciprocate. Respect.

Turo602
06-02-2016, 02:58 AM
It would, sadly. I'm not in a hurry to go, given this is the only life we get, and I'm as human as you are, and therefore irresponsibly selfish, but if you're objective, like I said, being human doesn't translate to MVP, and the world really doesn't need me, or my family. If you let yourself, you begin to see that you, as a living breathing thing, contribute nothing of value to the ecosystem; you only damage it. You are, as they say, a runaway causality, bound by spacetime, destroying everything, only to create more you. We are a successful species, thanks to our aggression, and selfishness; fortunately these are the same two traits that will resolve us.

But rock on brother, keep on that self righteous path, as usual.

Sure, we're all meaningless to the universe. But so what? We as humans don't make decisions based on whether it'll matter to the world or greater universe. Like you said, we're selfish. The only thing that matters is us because we make ourselves the "MVPs." If you truly want to be objective, then you shouldn't care one way or the other. Gorillas are just as selfish and meaningless as humans. So what's the difference? It's our selfishness that puts importance on one over the other. Yet people bitch about that poor gorilla who they would have murdered themselves if they had the chance had that been their child down there. Suddenly, all that mathematical dribble goes down the toilet. The world may be objective, but that's not how we live it. Not then, not now, not ever.

mrmaczaps
06-02-2016, 06:16 AM
The kid wasn't in any real danger, but to be honest, if we're looking at things objectively, the gorilla is more important than the kid.

People are 8billion strong, there are less than 800 gorillas alive.

**** the kid, and his parents, and the idiot that shot the gorilla. **** the zoo in general.

You could literally lose all the attendees at the zoo that day, and still not make any real dent in humanity.

We worry about humans far more than we should.

It was the murder of an innocent.


Zoos shouldn't exist in the first place. It's wrong.


What kind of sick individual are you? You have kids? Nieces or nephews?

Damn man.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 08:47 AM
I'm sorry...zoos shouldn't exist?
Why do you think there are even 800 gorillas still left in the world?

Where do you think all those animals that get hurt year in and year out by human negligence end up when they're too damaged by the experience to be released back into the wild go?

Zoos.

Where do you think the medical training and knowledge to help them in the first place comes from?

Zoos.

Where do species protection and repopulation plans come from?

Zoos.

This was an accident. The kid was stupid and he's damn lucky that the zoo had an emergency plan in place or he'd be dead by not. Not because gorillas are an inherently dangerous species, but because they're 10x stronger than we are. Would the gorilla torn the kid in half? No, but it easily could have. What's more likely is that the kid would have been killed by rough treatment the animal would have thought it could be able to withstand.

For point of reference, not even the zoo keepers go into an enclosure with an animal like a gorilla. There's always a barrier between them. A strong barrier.

The parents should consider themselves lucky beyond measure that their kid isn't dead. I get that parenting is hard. I get that you can't have eyes on your spawn at all times. All it takes is for an accident to happen is for someone to not be paying attention, and they learned this the hard way.
Not as hard as the gorilla learned it...

I suppose I'd have more sympathy, but having actually worked in a zoo, and seen first hand how stupid people are when it comes to wild animals...I've got less than my already limited amount of patience.

TurtleTitan97
06-02-2016, 09:14 AM
I gotta agree with the zoo's decision. Male gorillas are much more aggressive than females, there's no telling what it would have done to that child.

Utrommaniac
06-02-2016, 09:18 AM
Plastroncafe has said it all! And he could probably even say a lot more because comments like that need to be stamped into dust.
Zoos matter and people are idiots.


This situation made me think of the 1996 situation where a child fell in an enclosure, and was carried by a gorilla. But there were some differences that came into play. The biggest one that the 1996 incident was with a much-younger female gorilla that was a mother. She carried the boy right to the door where the keepers and handed him over when they got there. She discouraged the approach of her companions and didn't let them near the kid. That gorilla is now the star of her zoo. She didn't **** around with the kid; she brought him to rescue immediately.

The new situation has involved a much-older Silverback. Not just any male gorilla, but a "boss" gorilla. The ones that we have been psychologically engrained to associate with aggression. The child wasn't unconscious either.

These are two very different situations, and the differences should absolutely be taken into account. Panic ruled supreme in this new one, because the gorilla was a Silverback, and the child was awake.

While the parents should be held accountable, their child should not be taken from them, if only for his psychological sake. Because nothing would reinforce a potentially newfound terror of gorillas like being taken from his parents.

Krutch
06-02-2016, 09:27 AM
What's more likely is that the kid would have been killed by rough treatment the animal would have thought it could be able to withstand.I'm no expert on animal behaviour but watching the footage, these were my thoughts exactly. It definitely had a protective vibe going on, but when he was suddenly dragged through the water it's a scary reminder of how scary strong these things are. I don't think it would have tried to hurt the kid, but most likely would have due to his strength.

Utrommaniac
06-02-2016, 09:50 AM
The dragging is another very important aspect compared to the other situation. The 1996 boy was carried gently and held. This one was not. It doesn't matter if he was trying to protect the kid. He was a big, powerful animal, probably not aware of how strong he was, and that put the child in danger.

Another thing to consider is: how many of you have successfully kept track of a toddler anywhere? Be it in a home or in public. Toddlers can disappear or get into a mess in a blink of an eye. While I have a personal anecdote that doesn't fit at all, it still applies. I disappeared from my parents when I was nearly three, my mother very pregnant with my brother, while they were working on the backyard fence. They struggled in vain to find me, only to discover after several minutes, I was sitting in front of the well-hidden refrigerator eating Cool Whip. With the door still open. They thought I was lost in the neighborhood - or worse. I think they even came close to calling the police.

Toddlers are difficult to look after, and many of you here who are parents know this. Look away for a few seconds, and they'll have spilled all the cereal on the floor. Take a three-minute shower and the playroom is a disaster. Turn your attention to the baby in a stroller, and the older one is in the gorilla enclosure.

I have Asperger's (and I'm sure it was obvious), and my children most certainly will too. Which is why I don't object to backpack leashes. If my kids are anything like me, they'll be zipping all over a zoo before I have a chance to catch up with them. Of course, I also wouldn't be taking care of a baby at the same time as a toddler. My family has lost track of me on some occasions - but I'm not going to include the Paris metro incident because that was an accident.

Parental mindfulness may be difficult, but precaution measures weren't in play. There was no telling that the kid would end up in the enclosure, but never assume that a toddler wouldn't run off and get into trouble while their parents are distracted.

snake
06-02-2016, 09:53 AM
I'm sorry...zoos shouldn't exist?
Why do you think there are even 800 gorillas still left in the world?

Where do you think all those animals that get hurt year in and year out by human negligence end up when they're too damaged by the experience to be released back into the wild go?

Zoos.

Where do you think the medical training and knowledge to help them in the first place comes from?

Zoos.

Where do species protection and repopulation plans come from?

Zoos.

This was an accident. The kid was stupid and he's damn lucky that the zoo had an emergency plan in place or he'd be dead by not. Not because gorillas are an inherently dangerous species, but because they're 10x stronger than we are. Would the gorilla torn the kid in half? No, but it easily could have. What's more likely is that the kid would have been killed by rough treatment the animal would have thought it could be able to withstand.

For point of reference, not even the zoo keepers go into an enclosure with an animal like a gorilla. There's always a barrier between them. A strong barrier.

The parents should consider themselves lucky beyond measure that their kid isn't dead. I get that parenting is hard. I get that you can't have eyes on your spawn at all times. All it takes is for an accident to happen is for someone to not be paying attention, and they learned this the hard way.
Not as hard as the gorilla learned it...

I suppose I'd have more sympathy, but having actually worked in a zoo, and seen first hand how stupid people are when it comes to wild animals...I've got less than my already limited amount of patience.
Holy sh*t. This is the first thing you've said that I 100% agree with.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 10:38 AM
The kid wasn't in any real danger, but to be honest, if we're looking at things objectively, the gorilla is more important than the kid.

People are 8billion strong, there are less than 800 gorillas alive.

**** the kid, and his parents, and the idiot that shot the gorilla. **** the zoo in general.

You could literally lose all the attendees at the zoo that day, and still not make any real dent in humanity.

We worry about humans far more than we should.

It was the murder of an innocent.


Zoos shouldn't exist in the first place. It's wrong.

The kid was indeed in very real danger. Just because the gorilla didn't immediately tear him apart doesn't mean that he wouldn't have.

Just because you don't care for your fellow man doesn't mean others don't. To you, the obituaries page is just a bunch of dead people who you never knew and don't care about. But these individual people meant a lot - the whole world - to others. You don't seem to think you mean a lot to other people, but you probably do.

Humans are naturally superior to the other creatures of this world. That's why there are 8 billion of them. And while I don't think that gives humans a right to kill animals for fun, we have every right to kill them for food or other such purposes - such as self-preservation. This was a killing out of necessity, not out of sport.

It doesn't matter what the ratio of humans to gorillas is. It's all about context.

Also, plastron is completely right about zoos. Sometimes, places like Sea World will mistreat animals, sometimes mistreat them horrible. But oftentimes the people working with the animals give them a nice home and a nice life.

In the meantime, I advise you to get some perspective. You're talking like Ultron, not a human being.

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 11:12 AM
Honest question for the people saying the zoo shouldn't of shot the gorilla...what do you do if the gorilla was successful in harming the child? Do you sit back and do nothing after its done whatever it is it's doing? Sounds like some of you have no idea how dangerous these animals can really be because all you saw in a video was something that "looked" like it was protecting a kid.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 11:21 AM
People who work with large mammals, and large primates, are all saying what looks like "protection" is really an intimidation behavior.

Silverback Gorilla males have evolved to do pretty much four things:

eat
sleep
mate
and defend their territory.

The female gorilla people keep referencing from years ago had been trained to bring her own baby to the keepers for regular check ups. That's why she reacted to the human child the way she did.

Seriously, people need to stop anthropomorphizing wild animals.
And yes, I realize I'm saying that on a ninja turtle forum.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 01:46 PM
Human life is not worth more because we say so.

It's cool that you work at a Zoo Plastron, but on some level, you have to admit to yourself, it's a prison, where people routinely pay to gather around captive animals and act like **** heads, throw garbage, jeer, and be the worst of themselves.

It's not that I don't care because I don't know them. I have empathy, buckets of it, for those who deserve it. The kid put the Gorilla in danger, not the other way around. The kid brought about the death of the Gorilla. The kid was the parents responsibility, like it or not.

The Gorilla did nothing wrong, the kid did. Like I said, it really is a numbers game, and yes, I'd say the same, even if it were my kid.

Seaworld is a f*cking abomination that should be destroyed. Don't tempt me with that garbage.

If I were the judge, I'd sentence the family to 10 years in a zoo; on display, for the masses.

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 01:52 PM
Seaworld is a f*cking abomination that should be destroyed. Don't tempt me with that garbage.


Sounds like you watched the propaganda that was passed off as that Blackfish or whatever it was called documentary.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 01:59 PM
Well THIS is a very interesting thread... :tcouch:

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 02:07 PM
Sounds like you watched the propaganda that was passed off as that Blackfish or whatever it was called documentary.

Take the corporations side. Good boy. Seaworld is a wonderful jail.

Andrew NDB
06-02-2016, 02:16 PM
There has been a breaking (and very dark) new turn in this:

http://www.chaser.com.au/2016/zoo-claims-gorilla-had-ties-to-islamic-state/

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 02:18 PM
There has been a breaking (and very dark) new turn in this:

http://www.chaser.com.au/2016/zoo-claims-gorilla-had-ties-to-islamic-state/

Well now it all makes sense. I'm waiting for Trump to make a statement on this where he hearby declares a mass deportation of all gorillas back to the Middle East.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 02:32 PM
It's cool that you work at a Zoo Plastron, but on some level, you have to admit to yourself, it's a prison, where people routinely pay to gather around captive animals and act like **** heads, throw garbage, jeer, and be the worst of themselves.

...

Seaworld is a f*cking abomination that should be destroyed. Don't tempt me with that garbage.



Considering all of the animals in the zoo I worked at got there either via Wildlife rehabilitator or were confiscated by law enforcement....no, I don't have to admit that. On any level.

As for SeaWorld, they're not a perfect organization by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd rather they stop perpetuating the notion that the animals they have in their collection aren't wild creatures, they do a whole lot of very necessary work as well.

People are idiots when it comes to wild animals regardless of whether they're in one of your so-called prisons.
This Guy (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160517-yellowstone-bison-calf-euthanized-danger-in-parks/) was outside and he still managed to be killed by stupid people who thought they knew better than wildlife managers.

It's nice that you've got this whole Edgelord Contrarian thing going on, but seriously: Sit down before you hurt yourself.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 02:56 PM
Considering all of the animals in the zoo I worked at got there either via Wildlife rehabilitator or were confiscated by law enforcement....no, I don't have to admit that. On any level.

As for SeaWorld, they're not a perfect organization by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd rather they stop perpetuating the notion that the animals they have in their collection are wild creatures, they do a whole lot of very necessary work as well.

People are idiots when it comes to wild animals regardless of whether they're in one of your so-called prisons.
This Guy (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160517-yellowstone-bison-calf-euthanized-danger-in-parks/) was outside and he still managed to be killed by stupid people who thought they knew better than wildlife managers.

It's nice that you've got this whole Edgelord Contrarian thing going on, but seriously: Sit down before you hurt yourself.

You've chosen to engage, so be it.

You're about the most self-righteous, cantankerous pratt here, and you damn well know it. You go to bat for very insipid argument a self loathing human twit can divine, including where we/he/she/it should defecate, without a thought, but change the argument to one concerning non-human lives, and you brazenly condescend. Where's you're SJW angst for those who are the most defenseless?

Where's your outrage? Tied up with some millionaire who can't decide if he wants to be a father, or a mother, or a punchline? Wrapped up in fighting for needlessly complicated language to address another human.

I'm not an Edgelord swetie-pie, just a human who looks beyond his own species.

You can't argue the Gorilla deserved to die...but you might, based on his gender. That, wouldn't surprise me in the least. and had he been a Gay Gorilla, well then, it's a hate crime!

Get on the right side of history; animal lives matter.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:00 PM
...

:tcouch:

Bry
06-02-2016, 03:11 PM
Gee I wonder what's going on in this threa--

https://media.giphy.com/media/iyKm1yNjeSebe/giphy.gif

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 03:11 PM
Blast my inability to edit text correctly.
Alas. Alack.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 03:12 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/54/2c/ae/542cae9589ee52428d5057021cc5af64.jpg

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:21 PM
Lotta monkey business happening in this thread...

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 03:22 PM
The Gorilla did nothing wrong, the kid did. Like I said, it really is a numbers game, and yes, I'd say the same, even if it were my kid.

You sound like a lunatic. I hope you're not a father, because you'd be a terrible one. And if you ever do become a father I hope you change your opinion about the worth of human life, especially that of your own blood.

The gorilla didn't deserve to die but neither did the kid. It was an awful mistake he made and it's a true shame the gorilla had to pay the price. But if one of them had to die that day, it had to be the gorilla.

Can you honestly tell me - and yourself - if you had the choice to pull the trigger, or watch a young boy be seriously injured or even killed, you would turn your back on the child?

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 03:22 PM
Lotta monkey business happening in this thread...

Nah just a dearth of reading comprehension.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:29 PM
Nah just a dearth of reading comprehension.

No, there are definitely some people going apesh!t on this thread.

It's a jungle in here...

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 03:31 PM
No, there are definitely some people going apesh!t on this thread.

It's a jungle in here...

http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2013/06/14/freeze-frame-high-five.gif

You more than deserve this for that.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 03:32 PM
It's a jungle in here...

o29rLg-LD7E

Song quality = thread quality

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:35 PM
I'm just on here to make monkey puns and watch people say cruel things to each other.

It's bananas, I tell ya.

...

Unless I can come up with anymore ape-related puns, I think I'm out now. :tsad:

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 03:40 PM
Nah just a dearth of reading comprehension.

Pretty sure I got your point.

"Men suck, zoos save lives, people are idiots, I work in a zoo, you a dumb man. Tumbler lingo. Shut up."

To to which I said, "You're a heartless ass, you shut up."

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 03:42 PM
Prat has one T not two.
Just...for your own edification.

(I'm gunning to add "pedantic" to my list)

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:43 PM
Oh my Grodd, this is still going on...

#FlashLivesMatter

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 03:55 PM
Prat has one T not two.
Just...for your own edification.

(I'm gunning to add "pedantic" to my list)

Paying attention to the things that really, truly matter, once again.
Ignore the argument, go after the spelling. Typical.

By all means, lets spend another year arguing about bathrooms, or Donald trumps hair, or who said something "insensitive" to whom. Let's ignore the overreach of humanity, and it's ceaseless wanton destruction; better yet, lets spin it, decide we are the pinnacle of life, and disabuse ourselves that we, might actually be in the wrong.

The air we breath is less important than the pronouns we use, or the gods we praise.

This was murder. Plain and simple. There was no justification for it.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 03:58 PM
Man, that was a chimp shot.

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 04:01 PM
PETA would be proud. Oh wait, they kill animals too. I take that back.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 04:03 PM
Actually, not only was prat misspelled, but its use in that particular attempt at insult was redundant.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 04:13 PM
Actually, not only was prat misspelled, but its use in that particular attempt at insult was redundant.

... because the great sjw plastroncafe, excuse me, sjc, is never, ever redundant. :roll:

IndigoErth
06-02-2016, 04:15 PM
Is the parent(s) at least in trouble over this, like they aught to be?

There was a time when parents kept a better eye on their damn kids more and actually actively taught them boundaries, staying within eyesight of their parent and they listened much of the time. Now some people seem to think the whole world is a playground and babysitter; like if anything happens well it's someone's else's fault for not being childproof for their kid. (Guaranteed this is the same sort of kid that drives me nuts at work, where the parents allow them to act like it's a playground and do whatever they damn well please.)

I hope they feel guilty for the rest of their life/lives over what their lack of control of their kid caused. Even if you can't watch your kid every second of the day, there is an obvious lack of parenting there already if your kid thinks it is okay to just run off and do that.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 04:20 PM
... because the great sjw plastroncafe, excuse me, sjc, is never, ever redundant. :roll:

Well of course I am, but isn't the whole point of your screed that you're better than me?

Or am I parsing your intentions incorrectly.

IndigoErth, I wish there were some way to hold the family responsible for their actions, if for nothing else than what could amount to a "wrongful death" suit, but I don't think that's likely. Which is sad.

This is one of those things where no one is at-fault because everyone involved is partly to blame.
The zoo for having an enclosure a kid could get into in the first place, the parents for careless oversight of their kid.
Poor damn gorilla. He didn't deserve this for doing what was ostensibly his job.

Bry
06-02-2016, 04:21 PM
Prat has one T not two.

Rebuttal:

http://media4.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/SDWfCW-1B6FvqRk0Z4VyiJuLR-Q=/fit-in/1024x1024/2015/01/02/985/n/1922283/cf9a4d84d2d51d15_tumblr_nb8vf6vPzp1shmcjio1_500/i/His-background-dances.gif

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 04:23 PM
There was a time when parents kept a better eye on their damn kids more and actually actively taught them boundaries, staying within eyesight of their parent and they listened much of the time.

Are you kidding? Before kids were encouraged to stay inside and watch TV, and before parents were arrested for letting their kids walk to bus stops all by themselves, kids would be gone the whole day screwing around God knows where, and would come home from dinner battered and bruised from a day of being in places they had no place being.

The kid was like four years old. Four-year-olds are stupid. I once climbed in a pig pen and fell in a bunch of pig poop when I was about that age. It happens.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 04:24 PM
Rebuttal:

http://media4.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/SDWfCW-1B6FvqRk0Z4VyiJuLR-Q=/fit-in/1024x1024/2015/01/02/985/n/1922283/cf9a4d84d2d51d15_tumblr_nb8vf6vPzp1shmcjio1_500/i/His-background-dances.gif

https://media3.giphy.com/media/272ykaOI50eLm/200_s.gif

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 04:29 PM
Are you kidding? Before kids were encouraged to stay inside and watch TV, and before parents were arrested for letting their kids walk to bus stops all by themselves, kids would be gone the whole day screwing around God knows where, and would come home from dinner battered and bruised from a day of being in places they had no place being.

The kid was like four years old. Four-year-olds are stupid. I once climbed in a pig pen and fell in a bunch of pig poop when I was about that age. It happens.

This. Nowadays with all the social media happenings and what not parents are too concerned with what's going down on Facebook or Instagram, and can't be assed to do a little parenting while out in public.

Candy Kappa
06-02-2016, 04:32 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, and everyone is a gorilla expert, tranquilizer enthusiast and gold medal winner in parenting.

Yet, the zoo had enclosures keeping the gorilla off-limits so bad, a 4-year old got through.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 04:34 PM
As probably the only actual parent on this thread, let me assure everyone, kids get into trouble--sometimes even this level of serious trouble--even with the most attentive parents.

They slip their hand out of yours, run faster than you, bam. Nowhere does anyone say that the mother was negligent. I'm willing to give the zookeepers and the people involved the benefit of the doubt.

The loss of that magnificent beast is tragic; were I in that situation, I don't know what I would've done. All I know is I already hold my kids' hands tight at the zoo, and I'm not changing that now. :tlol:

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 04:39 PM
I'm instantly reminded of The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

In particular #12:
One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.

Zoos rely on public funding in the form of admissions, so all enclosures must be safe but not so safe as people can't view them. They have to be functional, but not so functional as to upset the visitors, and what they believe the animals need to be comfortable.

Again, this is a crap situation.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 04:51 PM
I'm instantly reminded of The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

How have I never seen this before!? :tlol:

But I disagree with #35. I already have a wicked goatee and I am not getting rid of it.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 05:01 PM
@plastron Nowhere did I say, I'm better than you; yes, I see what you did there, and yes, maybe I'm twisting your argument a tad...

Again, no more than you've done, on occasion...

Here's where we differ in opinion:
Maybe, just maybe, the kid wasn't actually worth the life of an endangered species.

Now that a crime's been committed, there needs for justice. It. Was. Wrong.

I get how that reads to some of you. I know, y'all instantly think "but it's a child." My response, is distasteful, because I'm saying, "yes, and?"

We don't discriminate with drone strikes. We don't balk when it's children in the thousands in a differnt country, dying slowly, painfully; but we absolutely give a damn when it's just one, in a situation that could happen to us.

It's true, despite a parents best intentions, things happen, but that argument could also be used a myriad of ways, and good intentions are a non defence. Something needs to be done, because this was wrong.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 05:16 PM
I get how that reads to some of you. I know, y'all instantly think "but it's a child." My response, is distasteful, because I'm saying, "yes, and?"

No, I instantly think "but it's a human being". Child, adult, man, woman, white, black, whatever - I'd prioritize the safety of the human far more than I would the gorilla. If there were a way to get both out of the situation safely it would have been done. Human beings should have a natural instinct to protect their own from harm - that's why we have laws against harming others, and why that's been the norm for pretty much all of human history.

We don't discriminate with drone strikes. We don't balk when it's children in the thousands in a differnt country, dying slowly, painfully; but we absolutely give a damn when it's just one, in a situation that could happen to us.

If you don't balk at the notion of letting one child die, why should we believe you could care if thousands do? Is it because 1000 is a bigger number than one? If there were 8,000 of these gorillas instead of only 800, would you not have such apathy for the kid in question?

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 05:36 PM
No, I instantly think "but it's a human being". Child, adult, man, woman, white, black, whatever - I'd prioritize the safety of the human far more than I would the gorilla. If there were a way to get both out of the situation safely it would have been done. Human beings should have a natural instinct to protect their own from harm - that's why we have laws against harming others, and why that's been the norm for pretty much all of human history.



If you don't balk at the notion of letting one child die, why should we believe you could care if thousands do? Is it because 1000 is a bigger number than one? If there were 8,000 of these gorillas instead of only 800, would you not have such apathy for the kid in question?

Man is an animal. A gorilla is as sentient as you or I. We don't share a common language, our brains are slightly different.

But you don't see that, you see less than. This is the same thinking MLK fought. It's the same thinking that lead to a need for black lives matter.

Dominant does not equal special, or more than. This was wrong, the zoo was wrong. It was murder.

The child would have survived. if the gorilla had killed the child, THEN, a case could be made. The Gorilla did not, the strike was presumptive, similar to how salespeople love to follow me around a store, "just in case". Similar to the stop and search that happens because of the color of my skin.

You want to argue that? You want to tell me the shoot first option isn't prejudicial?

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 05:58 PM
Man is an animal. A gorilla is as sentient as you or I. We don't share a common language, our brains are slightly different.

It can be argued that a gorilla is as alive as you or I. Or that it has as much a right to life as you or I. But it cannot be argued that it is as sentient as a human. Humans think on levels far greater than gorillas. Mentally we are more powerful than them. We are capable of much deeper thought patterns than merely "eat, sleep" and, ironically, "protect". A gorilla, I assume, will protect its child from harm; shouldn't a human do the same as well?

You want to argue that? You want to tell me the shoot first option isn't prejudicial?

Have you actually seen the video? Have you seen the kid be dragged around like a doll? That's when the choice was made to kill the gorilla. The kid's life was in very real danger. If a gorilla were as sentient as a human it would have recognized how much power it had over the tiny toddler it would have treated him much more gently (because I don't think the gorilla had any malicious intentions at all). If efforts could have been made to keep both alive and safe, they would have been taken. Hell, maybe there might have been a way to do it. But when things get this serious, you have very little time for deliberation and a decision has to be made whether or not a better solution can possibly be deduced by a later time.

It makes no sense to say, "a case could be made if the kid had been killed". Because you know what people would be saying then? "Hmm. In hindsight, maybe it would have been a good idea to take out the gorilla before a young boy lost his life."

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 06:09 PM
I never thought I'd see the day where someone would make an attempt to bring up a racial issue when talking about man and an animal.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 06:24 PM
I never thought I'd see the day where someone would make an attempt to bring up a racial issue when talking about man and an animal.

Man is an animal. What don't you get.

It's actually where racism stems from, or are you not up on your black history.

It can be argued that a gorilla is as alive as you or I. Or that it has as much a right to life as you or I. But it cannot be argued that it is as sentient as a human. Humans think on levels far greater than gorillas. Mentally we are more powerful than them. We are capable of much deeper thought patterns than merely "eat, sleep" and, ironically, "protect". A gorilla, I assume, will protect its child from harm; shouldn't a human do the same as well?



Have you actually seen the video? Have you seen the kid be dragged around like a doll? That's when the choice was made to kill the gorilla. The kid's life was in very real danger. If a gorilla were as sentient as a human it would have recognized how much power it had over the tiny toddler it would have treated him much more gently (because I don't think the gorilla had any malicious intentions at all). If efforts could have been made to keep both alive and safe, they would have been taken. Hell, maybe there might have been a way to do it. But when things get this serious, you have very little time for deliberation and a decision has to be made whether or not a better solution can possibly be deduced by a later time.

It makes no sense to say, "a case could be made if the kid had been killed". Because you know what people would be saying then? "Hmm. In hindsight, maybe it would have been a good idea to take out the gorilla before a young boy lost his life."

The gorilla was 17. The gorilla was a juvenile. No matter how you slice it, it's one life over another, and that was wrong, because nothing had played out.

You're only making the case to for shoot first, like cops do in black neighborhoods.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me with respect to sentience, because it's still true. I'm not arguing that we share precisely the same cognitive faculties, because the theres no sciene one way or the other.

There are more than a handful of other animals who share sentience the world over, but being different species, the nature of that sentience is of course, different.

Like I said, I don't think, given all the data, that the kid's life was of greater value, or in fact, in any real danger.
I also think, they should be punished with gross negligence, at the very least.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 06:27 PM
Here's another shocking incident of a primate attacking a child.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052011/1306235500_monkey_at_the_zoo_shows_ass.gif

:lol:

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 06:28 PM
Man is an animal. What don't you get.

It's actually where racism stems from, or are you not up on your black history.

I don't get it; are you trying to say a white man is a different species from a black man? Please tell me you have a more coherent thought than that.

And on that note, if that's the direction we're going, this is a good time for the thread to be locked.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 06:38 PM
I don't get it; are you trying to say a white man is a different species from a black man? Please tell me you have a more coherent thought than that.

And on that note, if that's the direction we're going, this is a good time for the thread to be locked.

ARE YOU INSANE
learn to read.

I'm saying that's the root of racism. the less than, and the more than, and it should be stamped out.

You ****ing troll.

Mayhem
06-02-2016, 06:47 PM
As probably the only actual parent on this thread, let me assure everyone, kids get into trouble--sometimes even this level of serious trouble--even with the most attentive parents.
^ this. We were discussing this at work over lunch a couple of days ago, about half the guys are fathers, and this was the over-riding opinion. Kids get up to god knows what and you can't keep your eye on them 100%, and if you get distracted for even a second, bam, they can be off. I did somewhat suggest in some circumstances that's what reins are for (I had them used on me at times when I was very young), but that didn't go down too well heh.

It was that and the fact that a four year old could get into the enclosure meant the enclosure wasn't that childproof then...

TheSkeletonMan939
06-02-2016, 06:59 PM
The gorilla was 17. The gorilla was a juvenile. No matter how you slice it, it's one life over another, and that was wrong, because nothing had played out... I don't think, given all the data, that the kid's life was of greater value, or in fact, in any real danger.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/6-02-2016/Sc6_Oh.gif

Looks pretty effin' serious to me.

I'm saying that's the root of racism. the less than, and the more than, and it should be stamped out.

Oh, I get it. I felt like there was a missing link earlier.

Humans can only compare things based upon themselves. Less than / more than human is a very universal way of measuring things. You can't just throw that out the window and say that every living thing is entirely, completely equal.

Comparing the comparison of humans to other humans, to the comparison of humans to other animals, is like comparing apples and oranges. And you can say that humans and gorillas are both living, breathing creatures, but apples and oranges are both fruit. In the end they're completely different situations.

On a grand, cosmic scheme, the lives of gorilla and the kid are probably just as worthless. So are yours and mine. But, from a normal human's perspective, the life of the kid is worth more to me than to the gorilla. Doesn't mean I don't feel sorry that the gorilla had to die because of a stupid, stupid mistake, or that I wish something could have been done, but letting a toddler die because they didn't want to lessen the gorilla population by 1 would have been very wrong. Because that's placing a different species over a member of your own. Any human life is worth saving, even if, unfortunately, that means having to flex muscles and having to hurt or kill a member of another species.

Either way you cut it, you're placing the worth of one species - and one life - above another. As a human being, yes, I am biased to preserve the life of my fellow man.

You ****ing troll.

Not a troll. Never have been. I'm not clever enough to troll effectively.

The Deadman
06-02-2016, 07:04 PM
http://i.makeagif.com/media/6-02-2016/Sc6_Oh.gif

Looks pretty effin' serious to me.


He was just taking the boy for a swim, like at a water park.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 07:44 PM
800 Gorillas, 8 billion Humans.

The point is, they made a choice. The kid got a little wet, big ****ing deal. He should have gotten worse.

Seems to me like a very speciest decision, one that we make over and over again, as the most selfish, egomaniacal ANIMAL (I can't stress that enough) on the planet.

The view, of humans above all else, is a false one. It's time for a change.

And I rarely bring up race; but tread lightly on that one. It is very much the same thing, and if y'all disagree, you need to think a little harder. There are too many parallels to be drawn.

on a side note: (http://www.people.com/article/harambe-texas-zookeeper-raised-gorilla-killed-says-he-was-never-mean-aggressive-people)

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 07:53 PM
That hole just keeps getting dug deeper and deeper. Probably about to run into a Balrog in the next few posts, Commenter. I'd be careful...

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 08:05 PM
Okay, it's unfair of me to get snippy without posting an actual rebuttal.

Racism comes from devaluing human life. Referring to our American history pre-Civil War, the prevalent thinking was: "Whites are better than blacks; they're not as evolved as the superior white man, not much more than really smart monkeys... so it's okay if we buy and sell them and mistreat them." Not all people believed this, and obviously, a war was fought that hinged greatly upon this issue. Sadly it was still an uphill battle and in many areas still is...

Saying that animals and humans are the same thing and their lives are worth the same (or animals more) is further devaluing human life. Animals' lives are important and not something to be callously misused; humans have a responsibility to respect them, care for them, and look out for them. That's why we have animal cruelty laws and responsible zookeepers.

Yes, atrocities and inhumane treatment happens often. It's gotten much better and hopefully will continue to do so (in spite of PETA ladies dressing up in lettuce bikinis to shame us all for enjoying cheeseburgers).

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 08:54 PM
Yes, please school me on racism. This is fun.

How is it devaluing human life, to give equality to all scentient life?

Am I the only ****ing African-American here?

Jesus Christ this board is white.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-02-2016, 08:59 PM
Yes, please school me on racism. This is fun.

How is it devaluing human life, to give equality to all scentient life?

Am I the only ****ing African-American here?

Jesus Christ this board is white.

Of course you're the only black person on here. Everyone who disagrees with you must be white.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 09:01 PM
Of course you're the only black person on here. Everyone who disagrees with you must be white.

y'all are free to disagree with me, but stop with the preaching like you know what it's like. **** off with that ****.

You're talking out your MF ass.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 09:41 PM
I'd be careful, keep this up and you're going to be getting one of our social justice newsletters, fresh from Tumblr.

Although actually, if anyone has a citation for gorillas having language I would love to read it. I know that some of them are capable of learning language, as defined as a purely symbolic method of communication, but I wasn't aware that they were discovered to have developed their own.

Point of order however, shooting the Gorilla was the last resort not the first.

And not just because it's the one that killed the gorilla. They actually tried to convince the animal to give up the boy, then they thought about using tranquilizer darts, and finally decided shooting him was an only solution.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 09:50 PM
For the "anthro" comment:

qtP0sGWF_d8

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 09:54 PM
That's nice, but not what I asked for. Proof of symbolic language, please.

And if you could extend your newly found Equality to folks that aren't you, that would be grand.

Or you can continue being a TERF. That's okay too, I guess.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 10:13 PM
That's nice, but not what I asked for. Proof of symbolic language, please.

And if you could extend your newly found Equality to folks that aren't you, that would be grand.

Or you can continue being a TERF. That's okay too, I guess.

Ah, see, again, that snark, such fun.

I was composing the post, when you put up the ask.

I don't know if there are specific examples of language... but as you know, language isn't the sole determinant of sentience.

snake
06-02-2016, 10:27 PM
Looks like it's a "Nihilistic racism animal rights debate" episode again

https://data.desustorage.org/r9k/image/1405/00/1405005746383.jpg

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 10:29 PM
Oh crap, you've got me. I'm so glad you're here to keep me in check.

But you're not wrong, self-awareness isn't only defined by the use and development of symbolic language. There's the Mirror Test among others. If you have links for those as well as the previous citation, I'd love to read them. It's been quite literally over a decade since I've studied Human Uniqueness, and I'm kind of rusty.

Commenter 42
06-02-2016, 11:00 PM
Oh crap, you've got me. I'm so glad you're here to keep me in check.

But you're not wrong, self-awareness isn't only defined by the use and development of symbolic language. There's the Mirror Test among others. If you have links for those as well as the previous citation, I'd love to read them. It's been quite literally over a decade since I've studied Human Uniqueness, and I'm kind of rusty.

Just dripping with hatred aren't we.

We both have Google, so have at it. I'm not your lap dog peanut. Perhaps I should send you looking for videos that thwart my argument instead?

Maybe you're out of touch with where we are today, in our understanding of non-human primate behavior. Maybe i'm not an expert either; so perhaps we could just ask ourselves, what's the cost of giving our very close relatives, a little more respect? Does it really affect you? could it maybe benefit them, and their lives?

I get it, you feel superior, more educated, and you absolutely have me dead to rights on my grammar and sentence structure. The school I went to wasn't in the "right" part of town, guess our schools just weren't as good as yours.
Bully for you; but you're really myopic in your thinking. All that disdain for what?

It's unfortunate you're so tightly wound little bird, I'm sure theres a fun person in there somewhere, beneath that hair shirt and woolen robes. I bet she's just dying to get out.

plastroncafe
06-02-2016, 11:12 PM
Dripping with hatred?
Someone's got an over-inflated sense of self.

Really I'm just curious if you've got actual facts to back up your philosophical leanings, or if it's all just bluster.
It's one thing to go on a forum and talk about how all animals are equal, and that some animals are more equal than others, it's another thing to actually do something about it.

You mention that the gorilla in question was a kid because it was 17, but that's actually almost half it's life span. Maybe a little less than half, because there's usually less predation in a zoo environment, less food insecurity, better health care.

Where as the kid was maybe 4% through with his life, taking into account his life expectancy rounds around 72 years.

Okay, so here's the situation, the 4 year old has trespassed onto the property of a 36 year old man. Let's say this guy lives in a state with Stand Your Ground laws in place. I choose Texas. This guy is well within his legal right to defend his property from any invaders, both foreign and domestic, and he takes special insult at this kid just wandering through his yard. So he catches the kid, and is tossing him around like a rag doll.

The authorities try to intervene, but there's no reasoning with the guy. Maybe he's got 'roid rage....no wait, that's artificial androgens, and I've already been accused several times of man-hating in this thread, so let's go with something a little more gender neutral: meth.
The guy's meth'd out, can't be reasoned with, he's still putting the child in danger.

What do you do?
Let the full grown man with only half of his life kill the kid? It's his right to do so after all, the kid is illegally trespassing on his property.
How do you de-escalate the situation?

Papenbrook
06-02-2016, 11:21 PM
Where's your outrage? Tied up with some millionaire who can't decide if he wants to be a father, or a mother, or a punchline? Wrapped up in fighting for needlessly complicated language to address another human.

You just had to bring transphobia in this situation, didn't you?

Despicable.

------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the creation of this thread was a bad idea from the start. People are extremely passionate about their views, especially when they concern topics like this. However, in the end, nothing really gets done, and everyone just gets upset.

This thread needs to be locked.

Powder
06-02-2016, 11:26 PM
I am leaving the forums. For good.

This is the end. Bye..

Knew that was merely a cry for attention.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 12:13 AM
You just had to bring transphobia in this situation, didn't you?

Despicable.

------------------------------------------------

Anyway, the creation of this thread was a bad idea from the start. People are extremely passionate about their views, especially when they concern topics like this. However, in the end, nothing really gets done, and everyone just gets upset.

This thread needs to be locked.

You need to be locked. up.

Shark_Blade
06-03-2016, 12:23 AM
I blame the careless parents and the zoo authorities for poor enclosure.

Cure
06-03-2016, 12:50 AM
I would have saved the child.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 01:03 AM
Dripping with hatred?
Someone's got an over-inflated sense of self.

Really I'm just curious if you've got actual facts to back up your philosophical leanings, or if it's all just bluster.

You mean like all that scientific evidence that people are born gay, or that God existsts, or empirical evidence for good an evil? Are these those same facts that should give a woman the right to choose, or the facts that support pro life? The basic fact of free will? Is that the fact you're looking for?

Please, point me in the direction of the facts you seek. Yes there are numerous studies that suggest we are not the only sentient species on planet earth, but as always, new research and new ideas raise even more questions, most of which are beginning to question our methods of establishing sentience in the first place. we've just discovered that gravitational waves actually exist, this year, but they have been suspected to exist for the last 60. We think the universe is expanding, based on the one method of evidence gathering we have for measuring the visable universe, but now that we have gravitational waves, we have a new way of seeing.
Point is, there are tons of things that are likely, but still sit on the fringe of probability. agaion, google is your friend, and if you're actually intereted, you could inform yourself by reading any of the literature put out by the Nonhuman rights project (http://www.nonhumanrightsproject.org/). I'm sure you'll find better arguments than mine in their writings.


It's one thing to go on a forum and talk about how all animals are equal, and that some animals are more equal than others, it's another thing to actually do something about it.

Actually, all I've said is that the kids life is not of MORE value than the Gorillas, and that after multiple viewings of the video, it looks to me, and many others that the kid wasn't in terrible danger. It also looks like, if anything, the crowds reaction played the biggest part in his "display".


You mention that the gorilla in question was a kid because it was 17, but that's actually almost half it's life span.

Maybe a little less than half, because there's usually less predation in a zoo environment, less food insecurity, better health care.

Most people would argue that animals live longer in the wild, than captivity. care to cite your source?


Where as the kid was maybe 4% through with his life, taking into account his life expectancy rounds around 72 years.

4% of 72 is 2.88. if he lived to be 72, and is 4 years old, he's gone through 5.6% of his life.

I mean, you want to get all specific...okay, lets do that.


Okay, so here's the situation, the 4 year old has trespassed onto the property of a 36 year old man.


Nope, false equivalency alert!! The child has fallen onto the property of a 17 year old Gorilla. if he wer a human, he would still be, 17. You don't age him up just because his life span is shorter, we too had shorter lifespans once, doesn't mean 17year olds in the middle ages were more "mature".


Let's say this guy lives in a state with Stand Your Ground laws in place. I choose Texas. This guy is well within his legal right to defend his property from any invaders, both foreign and domestic, and he takes special insult at this kid just wandering through his yard. So he catches the kid, and is tossing him around like a rag doll.

Again, not what happened. In the beginning he stood over him. The crowd went into a panic, and panicked him.



The authorities try to intervene, but there's no reasoning with the guy. Maybe he's got 'roid rage....


There was no reasoning done. They arrived on the scene 10 minutes in, then shot him almost immediately. The gorilla was not involved in the discussion.


no wait, that's artificial androgens, and I've already been accused several times of man-hating in this thread, so let's go with something a little more gender neutral: meth.
The guy's meth'd out, can't be reasoned with, he's still putting the child in danger.


Yeah, he's dragging the kid around. The kid fell from a crazy height, and hit his head. the cold water rush at the kids face kept him awake and alert, might have even saved him from drifting off. As a life guard, you do some pretty nasty things to patients you suspect have a head injury to keep them alert.
But it's all speculation, so let's continue.


What do you do?
Let the full grown man with only half of his life kill the kid? It's his right to do so after all, the kid is illegally trespassing on his property.
How do you de-escalate the situation?

1. I clear the area of humans.

2. I wait for the gorilla to relax. with no audience screaming, he'll calm down and lose interest in the kid pretty quickly. betcha he even returns the kid to the keepers.

But again, I maintain, the parents and kid are at fault, The gorilla should not have paid the price for human error.

The Deadman
06-03-2016, 04:24 AM
Knew that was merely a cry for attention.

No one ever stays away forever...unless they're banned.

ProactiveMan
06-03-2016, 04:36 AM
Dominant does not equal special, or more than.

In the natural world, the one that you, me and all the other human animals inhabit, it absolutely does. Gorillas are f**ked because they can't adapt to the crazy bullsh*t that we are doing to their habitat. Stuff our intellect, creativity, and very advanced social skills have put us in a position to do. Is it right or just? No, but it's a fact.

We are the fittest apes.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 05:05 AM
In the natural world, the one that you, me and all the other human animals inhabit, it absolutely does. Gorillas are f**ked because they can't adapt to the crazy bullsh*t that we are doing to their habitat. Stuff our intellect, creativity, and very advanced social skills have put us in a position to do. Is it right or just? No, but it's a fact.

We are the fittest apes.


But we are still apes. This is the point. I agree, we have dominated, that's obvious, but we need to disabuse ourselves of the dominion over animals nonsense. We need to look past ourselves if we're to have any hope of a future at all.



Just remember, giving women the vote was lunacy once too. Things change, and this is one of the most important battles facing humanity in the next few decades; we have to learn to share our toys with the othe animals.
It's not a question of if, but when.

Runaway selection can be deadly. Overpopulation is becoming a very real danger. Diversity is the key, always had been, always will be.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-03-2016, 06:31 AM
we have to learn to share our toys with the othe animals.

Someone tried that already. (https://psy.fsu.edu/history/wnk/ape.html)

This guy raised a baby ape along with his own son, to see if apes could develop just like humans. The chimp pretty much stayed a chimp the whole time.

But, if you want to be the next person to run down to a gorilla enclosure and "share your toys" with it, be my guest. I think you'll find pretty quickly that if the gorilla is polite, the worst he'll do is drag you around like he did the kid and accidentally seriously injure/kill you. If he's not polite, he'll probably tear all your limbs off and kill you on purpose.

No one ever stays away forever...unless they're banned.

What about.... Super Goku? :o

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 06:52 AM
What about.... Super Goku? :o

saying his name three times summons him!

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 09:24 AM
[QUOTE=Commenter 42;1586410]
agaion, google is your friend, and if you're actually intereted, you could inform yourself by reading any of the literature put out by the Nonhuman rights project (http://www.nonhumanrightsproject.org/). I'm sure you'll find better arguments than mine in their writings.


Oh I am interested, but what I want are your sources.
You stated very clearly that gorillas and humans don't share a common language. I would like you to provide citations that say gorillas have a language at all.


Actually, all I've said is that the kids life is not of MORE value than the Gorillas, and that after multiple viewings of the video, it looks to me, and many others that the kid wasn't in terrible danger. It also looks like, if anything, the crowds reaction played the biggest part in his "display".


I may have embellished your opinion "a tad."

With all due respect, I don't find you a credible source for information regarding animal behavior, let alone the behavior of great apes. Unless of course you can provide some sort of credential that says otherwise.

Most people would argue that animals live longer in the wild, than captivity. care to cite your source?

I'll show you mine when you show me yours.
Difficulty: No PETA.


4% of 72 is 2.88. if he lived to be 72, and is 4 years old, he's gone through 5.6% of his life.

I mean, you want to get all specific...okay, lets do that.

Ooh, that's interesting.
Here's my work.

CNN says the boy is three, not four.
3/72 = 0.041
0.041*100 = 4.1%
Rounding down, to 4%

Nope, false equivalency alert!! The child has fallen onto the property of a 17 year old Gorilla. if he wer a human, he would still be, 17. You don't age him up just because his life span is shorter, we too had shorter lifespans once, doesn't mean 17year olds in the middle ages were more "mature".

I don't think this is a false equivalency at all. We're already comparing two completely different things, so we must create a common denominator, and I choose to age up the gorilla to the human equivalent stage of development.

If you like we can age the child down.
I mean, it's only an academic exercise.

There was no reasoning done. They arrived on the scene 10 minutes in, then shot him almost immediately. The gorilla was not involved in the discussion.

Still waiting for proof of gorilla language.
But while we wait, let's discuss contingency plans, and how they may seem instantaneous to the outside observer, they're actually composed of several moving parts.

These people have literally trained most of their adult lives for situations just like this one, and you think it's professional that it wouldn't take them longer to assess the situation, run through their list of pre-determined and practiced options, and act in ten minutes?

Cripes...you're not an EMT are you?

1. I clear the area of humans.

2. I wait for the gorilla to relax. with no audience screaming, he'll calm down and lose interest in the kid pretty quickly. betcha he even returns the kid to the keepers.

But again, I maintain, the parents and kid are at fault, The gorilla should not have paid the price for human error.

We're not talking about a gorilla, we're talking about a riled 35 year old meth-head who has the legal authority to do with that child as he wishes, because the kid willingly trespassed on his property.

I want to reiterate this, because you seem to keep missing it in favor of blind attacks on my character, my intelligence, and my ability to have a good time on a Friday night:

This situation sucks. It sucks that the zoo felt it had to kill this gorilla. It sucks that the enclosure wasn't secure enough to keep out a three year old. It sucks that his parents lost sight of him in a crowd.

It sucks that armchair pundits who know very little about zoos, what they do, the kind of liabilities they face, are coming out of the woodwork with the advantage of not only hindsight, but the comfort of their own ignorance.

It just sucks.
I'm not minimizing the tragedy that is the loss of this animal, again it sucks. I'm saddened greatly by it.

But having actually worked in this environment, I trust the zoo staff to have made the best possible decision in this Kobayashi Maru of a situation.

Ninturtle
06-03-2016, 10:06 AM
I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 10:12 AM
I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

Just lie back and think of England.
;)

snake
06-03-2016, 10:21 AM
I'm actually agreeing with Plastron a lot in this thread ,this is odd.

It's a strange feeling alright

Shark_Blade
06-03-2016, 11:04 AM
Apparently the parents were anything but well-disciplined. Picture of them in this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3617016/EXCLUSIVE-PICTURES-parents-four-son-fell-zoo-enclosure-sparking-controversial-killing-Harambe-gorilla-emerges-father-lengthy-criminal-history.html

Apparently Daddy was/is a habitual criminal.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 02:02 PM
...burp...snicker...blah...

Man is an animal. A gorilla is as sentient as you or I. We don't share a common language, our brains are slightly different.


Evidence again, of you being you^^.

You do that with me quite a bit, you think you know what you've read, but you don't really. Skeletonman did the same a few pages back.

Moving on

The ****ing kid was 4 years old. CNN didn't get that right, likely because they were too busy oogling Trump.

I haven't worked at a zoo, but given that you have, please tell me, what were your responsibilities? Are you a primatologist? What are you're credentials for knowing, better than I what Harambe would/wouldn't do?

When Jane Goodall speaks out, condemning the incident, she must be wrong, right? You must have more experience and clarity than she, yourself being an armchair pundits in the behavioral psychology of non-human primates. You don't actually have anything to back up your claims, just boatloads of hostility.
Good for you, you should absolutely try to argue that an endangered species was justifiably killed, because that lines right up with the Ghostbusters remake is super important, and Bruce Jenner is a hero for borrowing his step-daughters lipstick. You're so right about so many things, including misquoting me, after raging on for two posts about missing a "t".

Good for you plastron. It's fine, 'cause the next time some stupid kid decides it wants to **** with the animals, we can all breathe easy knowing we'll just shoot the stupid animal, no big loss.

We can never have enough people. (http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/)

This isn't really an attack on you - I just can't stand the fact that we're this impossibly selfish, all the time. It's disgusting.

Apparently the parents were anything but well-disciplined. Picture of them in this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3617016/EXCLUSIVE-PICTURES-parents-four-son-fell-zoo-enclosure-sparking-controversial-killing-Harambe-gorilla-emerges-father-lengthy-criminal-history.html

Apparently Daddy was/is a habitual criminal.

While this doesn't mean the kid will follow, or that, they deserved this, etc, it doesn't help either. Apparently the mom was off taking a selfie when this all went down.

A selfie.

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 02:32 PM
You can't share a common language with something that doesn't have a language to begin with. By saying that gorillas and humans just don't share a common language you're implying that they have a language in the first place.

Which they, as of my knowledge, do not. For someone who knows differently you're certainly being obstinate in providing evidence.

Speaking of sources, let's take a look at that Goodall correspondence:

Dear Thane,

I feel so sorry for you, having to try and defend something which you may well disapprove of. I tried to see exactly what was happening - it looked as though the gorilla was putting an arm round the child - like the female who rescued and returned the child from the Chicago exhibit.

Anyway, whatever, it is a devastating loss to the zoo and the gorillas. How did the others react? Are they allowed to see, and express grief, which seems to be so important.

Feelings for you,

Jane
http://www.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2796_001.pdf

I have made my own credentials clear, several times in fact.

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 02:44 PM
and Bruce Jenner is a hero for borrowing his step-daughters lipstick.

Wow, just wow.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 02:45 PM
You can't share a common language with something that doesn't have a language to begin with. By saying that gorillas and humans just don't share a common language you're implying that they have a language in the first place.

Which they, as of my knowledge, do not. For someone who knows differently you're certainly being obstinate in providing evidence.

Speaking of sources, let's take a look at that Goodall correspondence:


http://www.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2796_001.pdf

I have made my own credentials clear, several times in fact.

Holy **** child,

We don not share a common language means, we can't talk to one another, USING LANGUAGE!!!!!!!
I'm going to start calling you obtusecafe, seriously. twisty twist eh?

Why not just outright admit it, you don't have anymore insight than the rest of us.

Goodalls comment is pretty clear. In a very sweet, but knowing way, she's saying "you must be upset, he wasn't a threat, and y'all did what you shouldn't have. ****** for u. holla back at your girl"

...Not exactly tea leaves.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 02:50 PM
Wow, just wow.

because "who gives a ****" is the point. I don't care, it doesn't matter.
he's a rich douche, the family are scum, I don't give a ****.


What's wow? I'm not talking about you, i'm talking about our obsession with nonsense. I'm long past judging people based on anything more than their values...Jenner is a poster child for the most selfish generation, ever.

but get twsited on it, y'all do a great job of that.

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 02:54 PM
Send Dr. Goodall my warmest regards the next time you speak with her.
She's a personal hero of mine.

The NYT also list the boy's age as 3, so it's not just CNN.
Though a Cincinnati CBS affiliate goes with the NY Post age of 4.

Here are some updates to the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/us/gorilla-investigation-is-still-active-cincinnati-police-say.html?_r=0

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cincinnati-zoo-gorilla-police-investigation-prosecutors/

They both go a little bit into the nuts and bolts of potential further legal actions.

I quite like this one from Wired though, which discusses the social implications of the loss within the gorilla community:

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/happens-harambes-gorilla-troop-now-hes-gone-complicated/

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 02:55 PM
but get twsited on it, y'all do a great job of that.


Get what twisted? That you're misgendering Caitlyn Jenner?

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 02:57 PM
It's Chinatown, Kappa.
If we wait long enough he'll either tire himself out, or flounce from the forums like so many others who can't handle being given what they dish out.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-03-2016, 03:05 PM
It's Chinatown, Kappa.
If we wait long enough he'll either tire himself out, or flounce from the forums like so many others who can't handle being given what they dish out.

To quote Captain America, I got that reference.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 03:06 PM
Get what twisted? That you're misgendering Caitlyn Jenner?


That's just it, Jenner isn't here. Jenner has more money than God. Jenner is the worst.

Like I said, gender is just a footnote to the person, like their hair/eye color, race, height etc... it shoudln't be the banner headline all the bloody time,

but I digress. I hate that family, hated them long before Bruce became Caitlyn, or Kim Married Kanye.

I still think it was a publicity stunt, like everything else in their lives. and THAT is shameful. Sure, it brought the issue to the fore, which is great, for my friends, but we all think Jenner is highly suspect.

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 03:10 PM
Sure, she's not a good person. But correct pronouns shouldn't be earned.

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 03:16 PM
For someone who doesn't care about something you sure do spend a whole lot of time with an ax at that particular grind stone.
I mean, you've attempted to hijack a thread about gorillas several times just to get a couple more turns in.

It's almost impressive.

Because it was asked for before, a gorilla fact sheet:
http://www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/gorilla.pdf
LIFESPAN:
Mountain gorillas live up to 53 years in captivity

Lifespan
A gorilla's lifespan is normally between 35 and 40 years, although zoo gorillas may live for 50 years or more. Colo, a female western gorilla at the Columbus Zoo and Aquarium is the oldest known gorilla, at 59 years of age (as of her birthday on 22 December 2015).[47]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla#cite_ref-47

It's also important to consider that the behaviors of captive gorillas, the likes of which exist in zoos, is different from those found in the wild.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 03:19 PM
Sure, she's not a good person. But correct pronouns shouldn't be earned.

I'm trying to force the issue with Plastron, get her to see that she's ignoring the truth.

I'm trying to get her to open her mind, compare contrast...

I know I'm not really winning any friends in the process...

I just really, really really hate what happend. To me this is the absolute biggest, longest standing, most egregious "rights" issue humanity has ever had to grapple with. It obviously goes far beyond one gorilla...

And I honestly think Jenner is a fake... not that I should judge really, but still, it feels way too disingenuous.

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 03:20 PM
It might help if we shared a common language.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 03:42 PM
zing!

:roll:

Communication
"Gorilla communication" redirects here. It is not to be confused with Guerrilla communication.
Twenty-five distinct vocalisations are recognised, many of which are used primarily for group communication within dense vegetation. Sounds classified as grunts and barks are heard most frequently while traveling, and indicate the whereabouts of individual group members.[48] They may also be used during social interactions when discipline is required. Screams and roars signal alarm or warning, and are produced most often by silverbacks. Deep, rumbling belches suggest contentment and are heard frequently during feeding and resting periods. They are the most common form of intragroup communication.[49] Severe aggression is rare in stable groups, but when two mountain gorilla groups meet, the two silverbacks can sometimes engage in a fight to the death, using their canines to cause deep, gaping injuries.[49]

For this reason, conflicts are most often resolved by displays and other threat behaviours that are intended to intimidate without becoming physical. The ritualized charge display is unique to gorillas. The entire sequence has nine steps: (1) progressively quickening hooting, (2) symbolic feeding, (3) rising bipedally, (4) throwing vegetation, (5) chest-beating with cupped hands, (6) one leg kick, (7) sideways running, two-legged to four-legged, (8) slapping and tearing vegetation, and (9) thumping the ground with palms to end display.[50]

Being wikipedia, not sure it's the most trusted or scholarly source... Maybe I'll go ask Jane for better links.

It's funny though. I started by arguing that sentient animals should b treated as non-human persons, meaning they should have rights, like we do. Some how, I allowed the argument to be turned into apes ARE people. Apes are apes, dolphins are dolphins, elephants are elephants. Our homunculies (sp?) are all different, so it stand to reason our verbal/social constructs will be varied.

As someone said, it's comparing apples to oranges, in a sense, sure, but really, saving one by destroying another, when you have bushels versus a single basket.

The bias is simply too strong, and wrong.

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 03:46 PM
Well, that took its time. But no link?

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 03:48 PM
Not all communication is language.
Might I suggest The Language Instinct (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct) - Steven Pinker.

Well, that took its time. But no link?

I assume it's from the same wiki article I just posted a link to.
For how easy he says Google is, you'd think he'd employ its usage himself...

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 03:54 PM
...updated that post...

I'm on set... sorry.

@plastroncafe

It sure is...right from wikipedia, so that we're using the same source, but if I get time, maybe I'll dig up some of my other saved links...
I'm not home, so i can't reach for them at the moment.

Candy Kappa
06-03-2016, 03:59 PM
http://anthro.palomar.edu/behavior/behave_4.htm

plastroncafe
06-03-2016, 04:01 PM
That's not really where you started arguing.
Here's where you started arguing:

The kid wasn't in any real danger, but to be honest, if we're looking at things objectively, the gorilla is more important than the kid.

People are 8billion strong, there are less than 800 gorillas alive.

**** the kid, and his parents, and the idiot that shot the gorilla. **** the zoo in general.

You could literally lose all the attendees at the zoo that day, and still not make any real dent in humanity.

We worry about humans far more than we should.

It was the murder of an innocent.


Zoos shouldn't exist in the first place. It's wrong.

Your apology is accepted.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 04:17 PM
I figured most had seen these, but why not:

SNuZ4OE6vCk

Here watch the whole thing...

agRARyzb-hQ

Cliffnotes:

- Gorillas have a language of sorts, that they employ to an extent...

- They often fail the mirror test, but we think it might be because eye contact, in the gorilla world is seen as a threat...

- We currently believe that gorillas have a presence of mind, and can seem to understand what others are thinking about.

Commenter 42
06-03-2016, 04:21 PM
That's not really where you started arguing.
Here's where you started arguing:



Your apology is accepted.

And I still stand by that. Zoos have a vested interest in animal welfare, so long as it serves the zoos interest, just like a Circus.

SOME Zoos operate as sanctuaries simultaneously, not all.

I'm not apologizing to you, for anything.
Once you admit you're in the wrong, We'll all be fine.

sdp
06-03-2016, 09:33 PM
I'm surprised by how huge this news became. Stuff like this has happened many times before but never reached this type of attention. And while the winning side of the conversation is that it was worth it to save the life of the kid, I am at least happy with the shift among attitudes that was displayed even if it's just a start.

Sadly until the majority of the human population still believes in Abrahamic religions where they think we are somehow special and feel entitled we won't ever reach a majority. This will slowly change overtime as it's already been happening.

Shark_Blade
06-03-2016, 10:24 PM
I'm surprised by how huge this news became. Stuff like this has happened many times before but never reached this type of attention. And while the winning side of the conversation is that it was worth it to save the life of the kid, I am at least happy with the shift among attitudes that was displayed even if it's just a start.

Sadly until the majority of the human population still believes in Abrahamic religions where they think we are somehow special and feel entitled we won't ever reach a majority. This will slowly change overtime as it's already been happening.

What about the Abrahamic religion? Special and entitled?

Candy Kappa
06-04-2016, 05:43 AM
What about the Abrahamic religion? Special and entitled?

The main texts in Abrahameic religions specifically states that humans have dominion over other creatures.

Which, while I agree with some to an extent. Those Yhawehian/Abrehamic text was taken/plagiarized from existing religion and faiths, that's just how religion works, and the mindset of humans being superior over all creatures is not exclusive to Yhawehian/Abrehamic faiths.

Humans are generally just wired that way, we favor the abilities we possess and elevate that to the gold standard. We used to think evolution was about achieving humanoidism and we was the pinnacle while everyone else lagged behind. :lol:

plastroncafe
06-04-2016, 09:06 AM
Poor Darwin, his brilliant observation has been misused and misunderstood pretty much from the get go.

Damn shame really.

TheSkeletonMan939
06-04-2016, 09:12 AM
Poor Darwin, his brilliant observation has been misused and misunderstood pretty much from the get go.

Damn shame really.

Yep. As soon as Darwin made his research public, the first thing people did was say that, "if two turtles can evolve differently, then humans can evolve differently too! That means one race is better than another." Darwin was pretty ticked. I think. Or at least that's what I was told in my sh!tty World History class.

Commenter 42
06-04-2016, 12:03 PM
We used to think evolution was about achieving humanoidism and we was the pinnacle while everyone else lagged behind. :lol:

Used to? That's effectively the argument of this thread, and what's fueling the controversy.

Commenter 42
06-06-2016, 02:37 PM
http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1464447768-20160528.png

Andrew NDB
06-15-2016, 09:54 PM
How about this one? Apparently 5 alligators have been killed looking for the one that snatched up a toddler.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wildlife-officials-vow-to-find-gator-that-killed-toddler/ar-AAh69IF?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UP97DHP

Commenter 42
06-15-2016, 10:16 PM
How about this one? Apparently 5 alligators have been killed looking for the one that snatched up a toddler.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wildlife-officials-vow-to-find-gator-that-killed-toddler/ar-AAh69IF?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UP97DHP


Not surprised, seeing as the kid was white.

So the gators are down 5-1. I'm sure they'll make a come back, even the score.

Powder
06-15-2016, 10:26 PM
How do I resign from the human race?

Commenter 42
06-15-2016, 10:36 PM
How do I resign from the human race?

Every now and then they get even.
M7_oJQkSmXU

Mayhem
06-16-2016, 03:47 AM
I had to laugh at the badger, that's about as extreme as our wildlife can get! :P

Commenter 42
06-19-2016, 12:36 AM
2iSEka4yEVI