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ZariusTwo
06-12-2016, 08:44 AM
Up to 50 dead:o

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jun/12/florida-nightclub-shooting-terrorism-suspect-updates

snake
06-12-2016, 10:03 AM
That's a shame. I hate the world sometimes.

Mew
06-12-2016, 10:20 AM
Saw this on the news while my mom was watching. Why would someone do this? :tsad:

The Deadman
06-12-2016, 10:36 AM
Saw this on the news while my mom was watching. Why would someone do this? :tsad:

Apparently the shooter had radical leanings and didn't like the fact that men were kissing other men in his state.

Mew
06-12-2016, 10:51 AM
Apparently the shooter had radical leanings and didn't like the fact that men were kissing other men in his state.
That's horrible.

NinjaPug
06-12-2016, 10:56 AM
These hollow tweets from politicians wishing their thoughts and prayers almost infuriate me as much as the actual shootings.

Cure
06-12-2016, 11:10 AM
These hollow tweets from politicians wishing their thoughts and prayers almost infuriate me as much as the actual shootings.

...why, exactly? Are people not allowed to express condolences?

ranger_scout
06-12-2016, 11:24 AM
It's simply awful with what has been happening in Orlando this past weekend. First musician Christina Grimmie was shot there and now this.

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 11:43 AM
...why, exactly? Are people not allowed to express condolences?

No one is saying they're not allowed to express their condolences, only that said condolences ring particularly hollow when those same elected representatives do nothing to quell the situation with the power that's been given to them by their constituents.

In short: They're praying for wind when they've been elected to paddle for shore.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this happened during Pride.
Just like I don't think This Guy From Indiana (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html) was just in West Hollywood for no reason.

Correction:
The ban on gay men donating blood is still in effect.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/12/11912020/oneblood-blood-donation-orlando
Sigh.

snake
06-12-2016, 11:51 AM
These hollow tweets from politicians wishing their thoughts and prayers almost infuriate me as much as the actual shootings.

If they didn't you'd complain just as much

But YEAH MAN REVOLUTION HELL YEAH FIGHT CLUB BAD GUBBERMENT HUH

Prowler
06-12-2016, 12:03 PM
...and I'm sure this thread is going south faster than a lightning by turning into a gun control debate. So I'll just say this:

There's some messed up people in this world.

ZariusTwo
06-12-2016, 12:04 PM
Copycat crime averted

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-12-2016, 12:04 PM
If I had to pick a President based on nothing but their attitude from the tweets in that article, Hillary all the way.

Prowler
06-12-2016, 12:15 PM
If I had to pick a President based on nothing but their attitude from the tweets in that article, Hillary all the way.
Trump's comments weren't surprising at all. He's getting predictable by now.

snake
06-12-2016, 12:24 PM
Trump's comments weren't surprising at all. He's getting predictable by now.

He's right though. Between this and the California shooting terrorism on US grounds is becoming more and more of a threat each day.

TurtleTitan97
06-12-2016, 12:25 PM
Heard about this at my church today. Such a senseless tragedy. :(

Prowler
06-12-2016, 12:26 PM
He's right though. Between this and the California shooting terrorism on US grounds is becoming more and more of a threat each day.
Sue but has all of it been perpetrated by muslim radicals?

snake
06-12-2016, 12:28 PM
Sue but has all of it been perpetrated by muslim radicals?

Not yet for sure, but really, 53 people dead? C'mon man that's a lot. Losing your life because of terrorism is a fate I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Prowler
06-12-2016, 12:29 PM
Not yet for sure, but really, 53 people dead? C'mon man that's a lot. Losing your life because of terrorism is a fate I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
You're right about that. Though let's wait to see if this guy really had ISIS connections or not. Or if he just was a loonie fanboy with no ties to them.

Cure
06-12-2016, 12:32 PM
It's kind of scummy to look down on anyone saying they feel bad about a tragedy but sure, whatevs.

Candy Kappa
06-12-2016, 12:34 PM
Great, watch the islamphobes use this hate crime as an excuse to attack Muslims.

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 12:36 PM
It's a smorgasbord for people of a certain political ilk.
They can demonize Muslims more, and be smug about how a bunch of gay people are dead.

Like...say for instance the Lt Govenor of Texas.

Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick deletes "reap what you sow" tweet after mass shooting at LGBT club (http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-Lt-Governor-Dan-Patrick-tweets-reap-what-8076147.php)

WATCH: Ted Cruz Campaign Calls Attending 'Kill the Gays' Conference 'A Mistake' (http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/2/22/watch-ted-cruz-campaign-calls-attending-kill-gays-conference-mistake)

NinjaPug
06-12-2016, 12:51 PM
If they didn't you'd complain just as much

But YEAH MAN REVOLUTION HELL YEAH FIGHT CLUB BAD GUBBERMENT HUH

What?

My problem isn't that they are offering condolences. My problem is it's the same **** every 1-2 months when something like his happens. Use your power as an elected official to actually do something to stop things like this from happening. Like I said in my original post, these tweets come off hollow when tragedies like this continue to happen and all we get are more tweets saying the same thing.

Shark_Blade
06-12-2016, 01:00 PM
America had over 350 mass shootings last year, surprisingly only two were committed by Muslims.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckwu6XpW0AEDMYF.jpg

Its like people only care about group attacks if they're Muslim but not when they're Christian.

Yet no one cares when Christian groups like Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK have morbid things to say.
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742007751828766720
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742012037572628482

snake
06-12-2016, 01:22 PM
America had over 350 mass shootings last year, surprisingly only two were committed by Muslims.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckwu6XpW0AEDMYF.jpg

Its like people only care about group attacks if they're Muslim but not when they're Christian.

Yet no one cares when Christian groups like Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK have morbid things to say.
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742007751828766720
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742012037572628482
Oh please. Half of those people aren't even actually christian if they commit mass shootings. Plus when 80% of your country belongs to a religion yeah the numbers are gonna show on the crime rates.

Most people are christian by name only.

And most terror acts are commited overseas. Them coming over here is the threat.

Candy Kappa
06-12-2016, 01:27 PM
Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy at work I see.

snake
06-12-2016, 01:29 PM
Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy at work I see.

No true christian f*cking shoots someone.

Candy Kappa
06-12-2016, 01:31 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

snake
06-12-2016, 01:31 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I know what it is, don't take me for a f*cking idiot.

I'm still sticking with what I said. If you go out and commit a mass shooting, they probably aren't even conciously aware of their religion, just keeping it as a name. If they are, they could repent of course, but that's not how people are. 80% of America is Christian. That's a lot. There's bound to be some killers in there, so it's not suprising when all those crimes were commited by Christians.

Electric
06-12-2016, 01:40 PM
There's a major difference between belonging to a religion and committing murder, and committing a murder in the name of a religion...


Really sick and tired of all these mass shootings, sick and tired of people bitching about race or religion or anything related to the shooters or how the media covers them.

Something needs to be ****ing done. Believe in stricter gun control, or don't, but there is no ****ing reason private citizens should be able to own assault rifles. Dear ****ing lord. If you have any other opinion on that, you're a complete dumbass. There's no defense for it. You can sit there and whine about constitutional rights and you can have the opinion on hand guns and hunting rifles, but the weapons used for these mass shootings are weapons of mass destruction. No amount of background or psychological checks can ever permit an individual to hold one of these.

My heart goes out to all the victims and the families of those affected by this. I can't even imagine the pain. No one should have had to deal with this

snake
06-12-2016, 01:41 PM
http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1465760301045.jpg

Woo wee look at mee I can pull out infographics see?

snake
06-12-2016, 01:48 PM
Something needs to be ****ing done. Believe in stricter gun control, or don't, but there is no ****ing reason private citizens should be able to own assault rifles. Dear ****ing lord. If you have any other opinion on that, you're a completely idiotic dimbass. There's no defense for it. You can sit there and whine about constitutional rights and you can have the opinion on hand guns and hunting rifles, but the weapons used for these mass shootings are weapons of mass destruction. No amount of background or psychological checks can ever permit an individual to hold one of these.

I don't own any guns, but really not everyone is f*cking insane and will snap and commit a mass shooting just by owning a gun. That's just taking away something just because of a few bad apples. Banning assault rifles probably wouldn't do anything because mass shootings will always happen. Yet you can't ban every gun, because self protection and hunting (like you said) are a thing. It's a tough situation.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-12-2016, 01:48 PM
No true christian f*cking shoots someone.

Oh please. Half of those people aren't even actually christian if they commit mass shootings. Plus when 80% of your country belongs to a religion yeah the numbers are gonna show on the crime rates.

Most people are christian by name only.

And most terror acts are commited overseas. Them coming over here is the threat.

This x1000. There are extremists in every religion, or those who hijack a religion to justify their own hatreds and phobias.

There are just as many Christians who give Christianity a bad name as there are Muslims who give Islam a bad name.

It's a smorgasbord for people of a certain political ilk.
They can demonize Muslims more, and be smug about how a bunch of gay people are dead.

Like...say for instance the Lt Govenor of Texas.

Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick deletes "reap what you sow" tweet after mass shooting at LGBT club (http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-Lt-Governor-Dan-Patrick-tweets-reap-what-8076147.php)

WATCH: Ted Cruz Campaign Calls Attending 'Kill the Gays' Conference 'A Mistake' (http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/2/22/watch-ted-cruz-campaign-calls-attending-kill-gays-conference-mistake)

It's pretty much ALWAYS embarrassing to be a Texan. Great leaders in my state, eh? :trolleye:

snake
06-12-2016, 01:53 PM
This x1000. There are extremists in every religion, or those who hijack a religion to justify their own hatreds and phobias.

There are just as many Christians who give Christianity a bad name as there are Muslims who give Islam a bad name.



It's just that Christianity is pretty much the only religion that's ok to sh*t on for some reason. The radical muslims are a lot more vocal than the radical christians, and when you have the SJW's on your side, you're f*cking protected.

The Deadman
06-12-2016, 01:57 PM
You're right about that. Though let's wait to see if this guy really had ISIS connections or not. Or if he just was a loonie fanboy with no ties to them.

There was a report that he claimed he had ties to ISIS in a 911 call.

Electric
06-12-2016, 01:57 PM
I don't own any guns, but really not everyone is f*cking insane and will snap and commit a mass shooting just by owning a gun. That's just taking away something just because of a few bad apples. Banning assault rifles probably wouldn't do anything because mass shootings will always happen. Yet you can't ban every gun, because self protection and hunting (like you said) are a thing. It's a tough situation.


But tell me, what purpose need or right does any private citizen have to own an assault rifle? None. There's no defense for it other than "we want it," which, sucks, can't have everything you want. they pose a major threat to so many, even if it's just that one person that snaps. Yes, you can ban assault rifles, take them away from everyone because a few (hundreds now) have ruined it for everyone. too bad.

And will it completely stop mass shootings? Hell no. But look at the top 10 or so most fatal mass shootings in the past year. All of them were committed with assault rifles or similar weapons, not pistols and hunting rifles.
It'll take a significantly longer time and more difficult time to slaughter 50 people and injured 53 more in a club with a pistol or two than an assault weapon that can mow them down.

There is no need. There is too big of a threat.

Gun control on the lighter weapons I'll give you, it's a tough situation. But specifically assault weapons, not at all. There is not one good reason any citizen should legally be allowed to own them.

snake
06-12-2016, 02:01 PM
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/isis-announced-florida-attack-three-days-ago/

Nobody listens

snake
06-12-2016, 02:02 PM
But tell me, what purpose need or right does any private citizen have to own an assault rifle? None. There's no defense for it other than "we want it," which, sucks, can't have everything you want. they pose a major threat to so many, even if it's just that one person that snaps. Yes, you can ban assault rifles, take them away from everyone because a few (hundreds now) have ruined it for everyone. too bad.

And will it completely stop mass shootings? Hell no. But look at the top 10 or so most fatal mass shootings in the past year. All of them were committed with assault rifles or similar weapons, not pistols and hunting rifles.
It'll take a significantly longer time and more difficult time to slaughter 50 people and injured 53 more in a club with a pistol or two than an assault weapon that can mow them down.

There is no need. There is too big of a threat.

Gun control on the lighter weapons I'll give you, it's a tough situation. But specifically assault weapons, not at all. There is not one good reason any citizen should legally be allowed to own them.

Yeah you won me over. There's really no reason to own them. Times are changing.

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 02:26 PM
It's just that Christianity is pretty much the only religion that's ok to sh*t on for some reason. The radical muslims are a lot more vocal than the radical christians, and when you have the SJW's on your side, you're f*cking protected.

Don't tell me all Christians aren't this way, tell them. Tell the Lt governor from Texas.

turtle1237
06-12-2016, 04:30 PM
There's a major difference between belonging to a religion and committing murder, and committing a murder in the name of a religion...


Really sick and tired of all these mass shootings, sick and tired of people bitching about race or religion or anything related to the shooters or how the media covers them.

Something needs to be ****ing done. Believe in stricter gun control, or don't, but there is no ****ing reason private citizens should be able to own assault rifles. Dear ****ing lord. If you have any other opinion on that, you're a complete dumbass. There's no defense for it. You can sit there and whine about constitutional rights and you can have the opinion on hand guns and hunting rifles, but the weapons used for these mass shootings are weapons of mass destruction. No amount of background or psychological checks can ever permit an individual to hold one of these.

My heart goes out to all the victims and the families of those affected by this. I can't even imagine the pain. No one should have had to deal with this

I believe you need the best weapons in order to defend ones self. If we had gun laws like the wild west, I think the mass shootings will go down. Whats the point of defended oneself if they have say a 6 shooter, and the attacker has a assault weapon. It would not be fair for the defender to be able to stand up to that fire power with out a weapon to equal it.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-12-2016, 04:41 PM
Don't tell me all Christians aren't this way, tell them. Tell the Lt governor from Texas.

I, for one, have tried. Multiple times.

Electric
06-12-2016, 05:10 PM
I believe you need the best weapons in order to defend ones self. If we had gun laws like the wild west, I think the mass shootings will go down. Whats the point of defended oneself if they have say a 6 shooter, and the attacker has a assault weapon. It would not be fair for the defender to be able to stand up to that fire power with out a weapon to equal it.

Oh my lord. This has been the dumbest response. NEVER is a private citizen going to be able to defend himself from an assault weapon in a mass shooting, with their own assault weapon.
Jesus Christ. Look at every mass shooting that has not been stopped by guns (Cannot actually think of one mass shooting that has ended from a private citizen pulling a gun), there are none that have ever ended because some heroic citizen pulled out his own assault rifle and took down the shooter. Restraunts, concerts, malls, airports, clubs, an elementary school. No one is going to have an assault weapon on them for defense any of these places, anywhere. It's not fair to the hundreds of people shot and killed instantly in large numbers during these tragedies that we as a country are allowing anyone to freely buy these terrible weapons. They allow you to quite literally slaughter humans at such a rapid and destructive pace.

Majority of all mass shootings with assault rifles were purchased LEGALLY. Sure, if they're banned, there will still be a few that manage to get them illegally, but it sure as hell wouldn't be nearly as many mass murderers able to get them.

I'm not talking about side arms and hunting rifles, whole different argument, though they should be reformed as well. If a shooter can't legally buy an assault rifle, he's either going to have to struggle to get one illegally, risking him getting caught before he kills even 1 person, or attempt it with sidearms, which is still awful, but that sure as hell slows them the **** down, allowing more time for police intervention, victims to escape or attempt to stop him on their owN.


Lord.

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 05:14 PM
Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler/did-the-wild-west-have-mo_b_956035.html)

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, “Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check.”

A check? That’s right. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you’d check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.

In my new book, Gunfight: The Battle over the Right to Bear Arms in America, there’s a photograph taken in Dodge City in 1879. Everything looks exactly as you’d imagine: wide, dusty road; clapboard and brick buildings; horse ties in front of the saloon. Yet right in the middle of the street is something you’d never expect. There’s a huge wooden billboard announcing, “The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited.”

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 08:58 PM
But tell me, what purpose need or right does any private citizen have to own an assault rifle? None. There's no defense for it other than "we want it," which, sucks, can't have everything you want. they pose a major threat to so many, even if it's just that one person that snaps. Yes, you can ban assault rifles, take them away from everyone because a few (hundreds now) have ruined it for everyone. too bad.

And will it completely stop mass shootings? Hell no. But look at the top 10 or so most fatal mass shootings in the past year. All of them were committed with assault rifles or similar weapons, not pistols and hunting rifles.
It'll take a significantly longer time and more difficult time to slaughter 50 people and injured 53 more in a club with a pistol or two than an assault weapon that can mow them down.

There is no need. There is too big of a threat.

Gun control on the lighter weapons I'll give you, it's a tough situation. But specifically assault weapons, not at all. There is not one good reason any citizen should legally be allowed to own them.
I'm not sure you know this but what's classified as an "assault weapon" is usually nothing more than a semi-auto rifle like a 30-06 that has a grip added to it and things like that. The Second Amendment does not exist just for hunting. It exists as a gesture of goodwill from our Founders to the people. It exists to say that if our gvt was to ever become so tyrannical as the British did that we would have a means of keeping them in check. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Constitution or not but an Amendment can't just be done away with with the strike of a pen or a vote on the House and Senate floors. 2/3 of the states have to agree for that to happen and you would have to have a Constitutional Convention called for that to happen. It is estimated that there are over 320 million guns in America. Even if you do take away the Second Amendment you still can't get rid of all those guns. The gvt can not fix this with legislation. I refer you to the 18th Amendment to illustrate this. The answer to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That's as close to a solution as you're gonna get. Meth is illegal. Do people have a problem getting it? Alcohol is illegal for people under 21. Do teenagers still get it? Legislation can only punish. It can never prevent. Out of curiosity, I can tell that you are very dedicated to what you believe and I respect that, but can you point to a single piece of legislation that has ever prevented crimes from totally happening? Are you also in favor of abolishing the First Amendment since maybe that would keep people from saying things that might incite violence? Not trying to insult but simply engage.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 09:04 PM
Oh my lord. This has been the dumbest response. NEVER is a private citizen going to be able to defend himself from an assault weapon in a mass shooting, with their own assault weapon.
Jesus Christ. Look at every mass shooting that has not been stopped by guns (Cannot actually think of one mass shooting that has ended from a private citizen pulling a gun), there are none that have ever ended because some heroic citizen pulled out his own assault rifle and took down the shooter. Restraunts, concerts, malls, airports, clubs, an elementary school. No one is going to have an assault weapon on them for defense any of these places, anywhere. It's not fair to the hundreds of people shot and killed instantly in large numbers during these tragedies that we as a country are allowing anyone to freely buy these terrible weapons. They allow you to quite literally slaughter humans at such a rapid and destructive pace.

Majority of all mass shootings with assault rifles were purchased LEGALLY. Sure, if they're banned, there will still be a few that manage to get them illegally, but it sure as hell wouldn't be nearly as many mass murderers able to get them.

I'm not talking about side arms and hunting rifles, whole different argument, though they should be reformed as well. If a shooter can't legally buy an assault rifle, he's either going to have to struggle to get one illegally, risking him getting caught before he kills even 1 person, or attempt it with sidearms, which is still awful, but that sure as hell slows them the **** down, allowing more time for police intervention, victims to escape or attempt to stop him on their owN.


Lord.http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/
Here's a link to 12 stories detailing people using their concealed carry to save tons of people.

Netkeeper
06-12-2016, 09:26 PM
The Second Amendment does not exist just for hunting. It exists as a gesture of goodwill from our Founders to the people. It exists to say that if our gvt was to ever become so tyrannical as the British did that we would have a means of keeping them in check.
That was great back then. These days it translates to "the people should have the power to shoot government reps", doesn't it? Giving people guns is not going to give us the power to keep a government in check. Not any more.

Are you also in favor of abolishing the First Amendment since maybe that would keep people from saying things that might incite violence?
http://i.imgur.com/tzhujkw.png
Somebody doesn't understand how the First Amendment works!

Electric
06-12-2016, 09:35 PM
I don't know if you're aware of this Turtle Power, the constitution was made hundreds of years ago when the most deadly gun was a musket. Founders could never have predicted the weapons we have today. And since they understood that times change, that is EXACTLY why the constitution was made to be amended. Sitting there claiming the right to guns because of an amendment is in no way an argument, the document was designed to be changed. I'm fully aware of the process of amending the constitution, do not sit there and patronize me. Never once have I said all they have to do is strike a pen. It'll be a long process but something needs to be done

Also, don't know if you're aware of this, I admitted it wouldn't completely get rid of assault weapons. People who are determined to get them, will. However, rather than this psycho and the one who shot 20 children in an elementary school, or the one who slaughtered people at a midnight movie premiere, who all easily and legally purchased their assault weapons, someone would have to work a lot harder to get them if they really wanted to pull this off, increasing their chance of getting caught before than can harm anyone, or decreasing the risk they'd be able to do it at all.

You're obviously as awful at reading as you are at arguing, because I've said fire arms like pistols are a different issue. I'm sure those have stopped murders. However, assault weapons have not. No one can conceal and carry an assault rifle to defend against a shooter with another legally purchased assault rifle.

Please, give one good reason as to why any private citizen should be able to own an assault weapon capable of slaughtering dozens of people in such a short time, and do not even for a second consider the second amendment as a reason. Like I said, in case you missed it, the document was meant to be changed and altered, like it has been so many times.

In reponse to your first amendment comment: wow you're struggling for a defense? Changing the first amendment has no correlation to altering the second. That's a ridiculously stupid jump to make. The second amendment is completely outdated for our time. That doesn't mean the first is

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 09:35 PM
That was great back then. These days it translates to "the people should have the power to shoot government reps", doesn't it? Giving people guns is not going to give us the power to keep a government in check. Not any more.


http://i.imgur.com/tzhujkw.png
Somebody doesn't understand how the First Amendment works!

The people should have the power to shoot gvt reps that enter their house without a warrant. Or any other intruder for that matter. That's why we have the 4th Amendment because the Brits were doing that to people. Again. What legislation has ever prevented a crime? Did the 18th Amendment work?

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 09:49 PM
I don't know if you're aware of this Turtle Power, the constitution was made hundreds of years ago when the most deadly gun was a musket. Founders could never have predicted the weapons we have today. And since they understood that, that is EXACTLY why the constitution was made to be amended. Sitting there claiming the right to guns because of an amendment is in no way an argument, the document was designed to be changed.

Also, don't know if you're aware of this, I admitted it wouldn't completely get rid of assault weapons. People who are determined to get them, will. However, rather than this psycho and the one who shot 20 children in an elementary school, or the one who slaughtered people at a midnight movie premiere, who all easily and legally purchased their assault weapons, someone would have to work a lot harder to get them if they really wanted to pull this off, increasing their chance of getting caught before than can harm anyone, or decreasing the risk they'd be able to do it at all.
The guy that done the Newtown shooting got the guns from his mother who got them legally. These guns are all over the place. I know a lot of people that have AR-15's and now those things are literally almost worthless because there are so many of them available. The term "assault rifle" is used as a legal term and what it does is portrays all guns as something that only top secret Spec Ops units use. They aren't. Even the color of a gun can classify it as "tactical". But the perception that causes for people that aren't educated on the situation is that it's some weapon of mass destruction. The age of the Constitution has nothing to do with it. It's the law and if you want it changed the mechanism in it is the Amendment process. That is correct. But until then that is the law but doing away with it will never stop these things from happening. The same way the 18th Amendment didn't do away with alcoholism. I'm not saying that everyone against the Second Amendment has an ulterior or tyrannical motive but I just think sometimes there's such a visceral reaction that it clouds judgement. I can't think of a single piece of legislation that has ever prevented crime. Even when it was with the best of intention. The Patriot Act was an enormous piece of legislation and yet there is still terrorism. What ultimately happens in those situations is just the law abiding citizens wind up paying the price for the morons crimes. Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". The right to self preservation and defense, which is what the Second Amendment is, is an essential liberty. So are the other 9 Amendments of the Bill of Rights.

Electric
06-12-2016, 09:52 PM
The people should have the power to shoot gvt reps that enter their house without a warrant. Or any other intruder for that matter. That's why we have the 4th Amendment because the Brits were doing that to people. Again. What legislation has ever prevented a crime? Did the 18th Amendment work?

Not sure if you're aware, there's a slight difference between alcohol, and semi automatic assault rifles.

can you give any solid proof that banning assault rifles and similar weapons would NOT decrease people's access to them? Because basic logic seems to support that it would.

You use drugs as an example. Sure fine, people who really want them find a way to get them. But you know what else happens? A lot of those people get caught. A lot of people are deterred. Usage would significantly increase if it was legal, as anyone could feel no deterrent from it.

We all understand there is no permanent fix to these problems. But the goal should be to reduce it. And by making it illegal to own assault rifles would most certainly make using one more difficult.

Basic. Logic.

the age of the document has every ****ing thing to do with it. Times change. So much. To sit there and say basic laws that applied back then should still be there today is idiotic. You know what else was legal back then? Slavery. To make as ridiculous a generalization as you have made, then you are saying slavery should still be allowed. It was then. Women weren't allowed to vote. Why are they now?

Times ****ing change, people back then were wrong about things.

If you're so against legislation, what the **** do we do then? We've never tried this before, on this scale, so to arbitrarily claim it won't work is completely unsupported. we can't do nothing? We've had more mass shootings than days in this past year. Obviously your "defense with equal force" isn't doing ****. It'd be a damn smart thing to try something else

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 10:07 PM
Laws don't exist solely to discourage bad behavior, but also as a means by which people wronged by that bad behavior can seek redress for those wrongs.

It's foolish to assume that laws will keep bad things from happening, because....bad things will always happen. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Putting a fence before the cliff is far more effective than keeping an ambulance at the bottom of the ravine.
And in many cases that fence requires more than just one piece of legislation.
But Americans aren't exactly known for having a good long game.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 10:15 PM
Not sure if you're aware, there's a slight difference between alcohol, and semi automatic assault rifles.

can you give any solid proof that banning assault rifles and similar weapons would NOT decrease people's access to them? Because basic logic seems to support that it would.

You use drugs as an example. Sure fine, people who really want them find a way to get them. But you know what else happens? A lot of those people get caught. A lot of people are deterred. Usage would significantly increase if it was legal, as anyone could feel no deterrent from it.

We all understand there is no permanent fix to these problems. But the goal should be to reduce it. And by making it illegal to own assault rifles would most certainly make using one more difficult.

Basic. Logic.

the age of the document has every ****ing thing to do with it. Times change. So much. To sit there and say basic laws that applied back then should still be there today is idiotic. You know what else was legal back then? Slavery. To make as ridiculous a generalization as you have made, then you are saying slavery should still be allowed. It was then. Women weren't allowed to vote. Why are they now?

Times ****ing change, people back then were wrong about things.

If you're so against legislation, what the **** do we do then? We've never tried this before, on this scale, so to arbitrarily claim it won't work is completely unsupported. we can't do nothing? We've had more mass shootings than days in this past year. Obviously your "defense with equal force" isn't doing ****. It'd be a damn smart thing to try something else

You know what stopped slavery? A Constitutional Amendment. More than even a war did. Whenever these people come out and use "statistics" about "gun deaths" one thing they often omit is that the vast majority of those numbers are from suicides. When the CDC had last released a gun death number in 2011 over 20,000 of the 32,000 deaths that year were suicides. However, that destroys the narrative that guns are an epidemic so it doesn't get stated. Last year it was estimated that 88,000 people died by alcohol related disease and alcohol poisoning and such. That's not even counting the thousands of innocent people killed by drunk drivers. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation and more people are killed there than in Afghanistan. I was told by some Chicagoan's last month that it is now the "murder capital of the world". I think just a couple of weeks ago there were like 65 people killed in one weekend. That's in a city that has the strictest gun laws in America. Again what would you do with the 320 million guns that are estimated to be on the streets at this very moment? That's literally more than a gun per citizen in America. I just don't know that there's a legislative basis to show that this will stop things like this from happening. I've given the example of Chicago. Can you give me an example where it has worked. Not just from a visceral, ad hominem, emotional angle but from an actual, tangible, piece of legislation that has stopped this. I even gave you an article of 12 instances of concealed carry stopping more people from dying. Did you also know that when Holmes killed the people in Colorado he chose that theater specifically because guns weren't permitted there? Maybe businesses should start saying they DO allow concealed carry and see how many people wanna go in there shooting? Ultimately dude if a person wants to kill people they are gonna do it and that's just the sad reality. If you are willing to die then there is no law that can stop that. There's just not.

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 10:18 PM
We don't have accurate studies on other forms of gun deaths because the CDC isn't allowed to record that data.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

Electric
06-12-2016, 10:26 PM
You know what stopped slavery? A Constitutional Amendment. More than even a war did. Whenever these people come out and use "statistics" about "gun deaths" one thing they often omit is that the vast majority of those numbers are from suicides. When the CDC had last released a gun death number in 2011 over 20,000 of the 32,000 deaths that year were suicides. However, that destroys the narrative that guns are an epidemic so it doesn't get stated. Last year it was estimated that 88,000 people died by alcohol related disease and alcohol poisoning and such. That's not even counting the thousands of innocent people killed by drunk drivers. Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the nation and more people are killed there than in Afghanistan. I was told by some Chicagoan's last month that it is now the "murder capital of the world". I think just a couple of weeks ago there were like 65 people killed in one weekend. That's in a city that has the strictest gun laws in America. Again what would you do with the 320 million guns that are estimated to be on the streets at this very moment? That's literally more than a gun per citizen in America. I just don't know that there's a legislative basis to show that this will stop things like this from happening. I've given the example of Chicago. Can you give me an example where it has worked. Not just from a visceral, ad hominem, emotional angle but from an actual, tangible, piece of legislation that has stopped this. I even gave you an article of 12 instances of concealed carry stopping more people from dying. Did you also know that when Holmes killed the people in Colorado he chose that theater specifically because guns weren't permitted there? Maybe businesses should start saying they DO allow concealed carry and see how many people wanna go in there shooting? Ultimately dude if a person wants to kill people they are gonna do it and that's just the sad reality. If you are willing to die then there is now law that can stop that. There's just not.

You just gave me an example of legislation fixing a problem in society.

Again, you have this completely false idea that I believe banning assault and similar weapons would eliminate gun violence. Not at All. But it would most definitely reduce these horrific mass shootings, committed with these terrible legal weapons more often than not.

You want an example?

Australia. Had a mass shooting and said that was it. Banned semi automatic weapons and shotguns, those that were owned were sold back to the government and destroyed. To even own another gun, a good reason had to be given, self defense did not count.

You know how that's worked out? Fantastically. Number of mass shootings since that one in the 90s? Zero. None.
Also included a decrease in the homicide rate.

What can you possibly say to that?

plastroncafe
06-12-2016, 10:33 PM
Point of order:
El Salvador is the Murder Capitol of the world. (http://prosperent.com/affiliate/click/r?url=http%3A%2F%2Fclick.linksynergy.com%2Fdeeplin k%3Fid%3DXdSn0e3h3%252Ak%26mid%3D36825%26u1%3D4096 64M1M160612223235EXS%26murl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fw ww.usatoday.com%252Fstory%252Fnews%252Fworld%252F2 016%252F01%252F07%252Fel-salvador-homicide-rate-honduras-guatemala-illegal-immigration-to-united-states%252F78358042%252F&h=c06d8d69437dad56e99af46f9e22b9ab&ua=)

And according to THIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate) Wikipedia article, Chicago doesn't even break the top 50, but St. Louis does.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 10:41 PM
You just gave me an example of legislation fixing a problem in society.

Again, you have this completely false idea that I believe banning assault and similar weapons would eliminate gun violence. Not at All. But it would most definitely reduce these horrific mass shootings, committed with these terrible legal weapons more often than not.

You want an example?

Australia. Had a mass shooting and said that was it. Banned semi automatic weapons and shotguns, those that were owned were sold back to the government and destroyed. To even own another gun, a good reason had to be given, self defense did not count.

You know how that's worked out? Fantastically. Number of mass shootings since that one in the 90s? Zero. None.
Also included a decrease in the homicide rate.

What can you possibly say to that?

Australia didn't have 320 million guns already in existence. Australia also didn't have 300 million people. They have less people on that entire continent than live in the state of California alone. It's complete apples to oranges. If the people of Australia don't want to own guns then that is fine. But this is not Australia and we have a Constitution and the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Thankfully. I just told you how to "Constitutionally" do things. I don't believe any legislation or Constitutional Amendment will stop crazy muslims, that are willing to strap bombs to themselves, from killing people. It's just that people paint with a broad brush and say "Assault Weapons". How is that classified? Does that put an AR in the same class as a bazooka? It's not in the same class as a bazooka in reality but when the gvt tried an "Assault Weapons ban" they actually did try and classify a simple weapon like an AR with a bazooka. They called it an "Assault Rifle". The main reason most gun owners like to use them is because they are highly customizable and they enjoy using them at gun ranges. The AR 15 is semi automatic. A 30-30 is also semi automatic. It's just that an AR can hold more ammo.

Electric
06-12-2016, 10:44 PM
I'm gonna say this argument is over. You cannot simply get off that "it's our second amendment!!!!" ******** which means absolutely nothing. It can be changed.

Yes Australia has more people. And? Again, you sit here saying these things won't work because of this or that yet you have no proof. You're going in circles which means trying to convince you otherwise is a waste of
Time

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 10:47 PM
We don't have accurate studies on other forms of gun deaths because the CDC isn't allowed to record that data.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

That legislation only prevented them from looking in to the underlying causes. Not from releasing the numbers of gun related deaths. Even if they did try to do that FOIA could probably override it anyway.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-12-2016, 10:54 PM
I'm gonna say this argument is over. You cannot simply get off that "it's our second amendment!!!!" ******** which means absolutely nothing. It can be changed.

Yes Australia has more people. And? Again, you sit here saying these things won't work because of this or that yet you have no proof. You're going in circles which means trying to convince you otherwise is a waste of
Time

Yes. You are correct. You are not gonna convince me that we don't have a Second Amendment that says our rights to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The answer to crazy muslims is not to take rights from law abiding people with no ulterior motive. I have shown you clearly where lives were saved by law abiding gun owners but that is disregarded for the "we just have to do something...ANYthing" argument. That kind of thinking is why when we go to the airport we have to be all but anally probed by some stupid bureaucrat. That's totally against the 4th Amendment but people don't seem to care that it's the Constitution that is under more assault than anything in this country. So suppose you repeal the 2nd Amendment just as the 18th Amendment outlawed alcohol. Then when it was demonstrably proven that you can't legislate morality we got the 21st Amendment. IF the Second Amendment got repealed and gun violence spiked would you then be for reinstating it?

sdp
06-12-2016, 10:55 PM
I don't really want to get into the debate but I'll say that ignoring islam as a problem because not all Muslims are murderers is the same defense gun activists use that guns aren't a problem it's the people who use them to kill.

Electric
06-12-2016, 11:10 PM
Yes. You are correct. You are not gonna convince me that we don't have a Second Amendment that says our rights to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The answer to crazy muslims is not to take rights from law abiding people with no ulterior motive. I have shown you clearly where lives were saved by law abiding gun owners but that is disregarded for the "we just have to do something...ANYthing" argument. That kind of thinking is why when we go to the airport we have to be all but anally probed by some stupid bureaucrat. That's totally against the 4th Amendment but people don't seem to care that it's the Constitution that is under more assault than anything in this country. So suppose you repeal the 2nd Amendment just as the 18th Amendment outlawed alcohol. Then when it was demonstrably proven that you can't legislate morality we got the 21st Amendment. IF the Second Amendment got repealed and gun violence spiked would you then be for reinstating it?


The theater shooter and sandy hook shooter were not Islamic.

I have shown you an entire country that has don't what we need to do with success.

You have shown me stories about concealed and carry...not assault rifles.

You can sit there and think you've won. But it has just grown tiresome trying to keep you on track and not go off on something not included in what I've been discussin, correcting your "proof" as it is unsupported, and telling you saying that the founders saying people should have guns holds no weight as a defense.

You are just terrible at this argument. If there is a defense to your stance, you are not conveying it

Refractive Reflections
06-13-2016, 12:08 AM
America had over 350 mass shootings last year, surprisingly only two were committed by Muslims.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckwu6XpW0AEDMYF.jpg

Its like people only care about group attacks if they're Muslim but not when they're Christian.

Yet no one cares when Christian groups like Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK have morbid things to say.
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742007751828766720
https://twitter.com/WBCSaysRepent/status/742012037572628482

Well, to start off there's a major difference between a violent attack (causing injury and death) itself versus a non-associated party making a morbid/inappropriate/offensive response statement about it on Twitter.

As for the map... you have to reassess as to what were the intentions of these violent crimes individually. Most of the violent crimes that are typically caused in the United States (and usually ignored by society) involve conflict in which the perpetrator wants self-gratifying personal gain, whether it's material (i.e. drug deal gone bad) or emotional revenge against those he/she has a relationship with (i.e. domestic disputes elevated to a murderous extreme). The crimes that make national/international news, is when an individual decides to project their personal frustrations on society, in much more global perspective, in which there is no comprehensible, immediate concrete personal gain for committing murder (especially on a massive scale).

The major point of contention and debate in society is that why is the number of terrorism attacks so high in radical Islam versus other radical ideologies? For example, we don't see the KKK (Ku Klux Klan) commit mass suicide bombings/shootings in the Middle East for Christianity, or hear radical Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Taoists, or Sikhs committing mass murder (at least in such a grand scale as radical Islam) in the name of their religions. The pursuit in trying to answer that question has created a wide variety of responses ranging from geopolitical to more controversial religion-focused statements.

Shark_Blade
06-13-2016, 12:30 AM
http://i.imgur.com/YEHurmh.png
http://i.imgur.com/WYlXFLj.png

Andrew NDB
06-13-2016, 12:32 AM
All I will say is... horrible, terrible tragedy. I hope the perpetrator burns in Hell eternal if such a thing is real. And I'm all for making sure there is a reasonable system in place to ensure gun owners are appropriately background checked and of sound mind and are appropriately versed in proper gun safety. Beyond that?

They are never, ever going to take our guns away. It's not going to happen. You don't like that? That makes you scared to walk down the street? There are many other countries where you don't have to worry about having that right. Go wild.

Commenter 42
06-13-2016, 12:36 AM
Pretty sure I don't need to read a single post in this thread to know what's going on here.

Caught some of the story on CNN, which slants and skews everything, always trust them to distort any and all information.
It's ****ing wrong, and there's no justification. There's no argument that makes killing people in a nightclub okay.
Dude could have been a crazy Christian as easily as a Muslim. Religion is the root of all evil, not the guns.

Theism is the most divisive construct we've ever created, next to Capitalism. It's sad that we have insights into the very essence of the universe, an unprecedented network to communicate across the globe instantaneously, tools to remake our world into a veritable utopia, and instead, we all get worked up over whose doing what to whom with their dick.

Our species just doesn't appreciate what we've got.

ProactiveMan
06-13-2016, 12:58 AM
It's part of our behavioural MO to align ourselves with groups of other people. If it isn't religion, it's something else. The twentieth century saw more human beings killed than any century prior, and by some estimates, all others combined, and mostly at the hands of secular ideologies. WWI, the Russian Revolution, WWII, the People’s Revolution etc. None of these were religiously motivated, and the worst of them were actively trying to extinguish religion.

It doesn’t matter what ideas are behind a movement, people will violently align themselves with it because it scratches some kind of instinctual itch. People like to belong, they like to feel important, and they fear the reverse and all that it implies.

Edit: I feel awful about the shooting; everyone at work is pretty depressed. Things like this make people feel helpless, and I guess that’s where the focused anger comes from, but looking for scapegoats will only serve to make you feel better; it won’t solve the problem.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-13-2016, 01:03 AM
The theater shooter and sandy hook shooter were not Islamic.

I have shown you an entire country that has don't what we need to do with success.

You have shown me stories about concealed and carry...not assault rifles.

You can sit there and think you've won. But it has just grown tiresome trying to keep you on track and not go off on something not included in what I've been discussin, correcting your "proof" as it is unsupported, and telling you saying that the founders saying people should have guns holds no weight as a defense.

You are just terrible at this argument. If there is a defense to your stance, you are not conveying it

First of all, I have shown that you don't know what an "assault rifle" actually is. Because you don't. Second of all, I have shown that Australia, as a continent, has less people than California, as a state. Apples to oranges. I understand that liberals live in a land of fairy tales where the gvt can solve all their problems, and in a sense the gvt could solve this problem, by telling more people that they have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms and if they want to be actually protected they should protect themselves instead of waiting for some unelected bureaucrat to do it for them. As soon as this coward realized help was on the scene he apparently took his own life. When I say "help" I mean a gun. Why didn't he carry out his rampage at a gun show? Or maybe a shooting range? Because there people exercise their right to self preservation. But go ahead and trust the gvt to distinguish what's an "assault rifle" and what's not. If you feel they are capable of doing that then you have a right to your opinion. I absolutely, however, do not. These morons can't even agree on what to name a post office most of the time.

Commenter 42
06-13-2016, 01:10 AM
It's part of our behavioural MO to align ourselves with groups of other people. If it isn't religion, it's something else. The twentieth century saw more human beings killed than any century prior, and by some estimates, all others combined, and mostly at the hands of secular ideologies. WWI, the Russian Revolution, WWII, the People’s Revolution etc. None of these were religiously motivated, and the worst of them were actively trying to extinguish religion.

It doesn’t matter what ideas are behind a movement, people will violently align themselves with it because it scratches some kind of instinctual itch. People like to belong, they like to feel important, and they fear the reverse and all that it implies.


Theological argumets instigate, and propagate otherness. Yes, racism is an innate defense mechanism, but religion is the parasite that stimulates the itch; symbolism devised to bind and exclude. It's elevated tribalism.

As for the number of Humans killed in the 20th century, I call foul - if not for the industrial revolution, and vaccines, we'd have stayed at the 1 million mark.

And the driving force, as you say is religion; but one over the other, not the abolishment of it full stop.

It's a tool for war and subjugation, not freedom or peace.

Mayhem
06-13-2016, 02:09 AM
Ah, I knew it would only be time before the debate about the Second Amendment would come up. Personally, the way it was written at the time, I've taken to mean is was to allow the people to take arms and rise up against a tyrannical government as a militia. It took until 2007 and a Supreme Court Ruling (by only 3-2 I will add) that finally "ruled" that it means what a lot of Americans have always (erroneously until that point imo) taken it to mean, which was just anyone can own a firearm and that right should not be infringed.

Except not everyone should be allowed to own a firearm. That's probably another discussion though.

The link posted earlier in the thread detailing 12 mass shootings that were stopped by civilians acting with their own firearms? Fine, that's 12 shootings that were prevented. That's 12 examples though, over the course of what, about 15 years (judging by the dates given in the article)? Since the start of THIS YEAR, there have been 133 mass shootings in the US ("mass shooting" defined as at least 10 people either wounded or killed). Examples my arse, that's basically an ant size strawman argument against a juggernaut elephant gun.

As already mentioned as well, there are approximately 320 million weapons in the US. You can't think about taking legal guns out of circulation until you deal with the illegal ones, because the population won't buy it at all, there are just too many held by criminals. And the war on illegal weapons? God knows how much that would cost. The problem is, the vast majority of the mass shootings have been carried out with LEGAL weapons.

Thus bringing me back to the statement about "not everyone should be allowed to own a firearm" here. But that would get the right wing zealots frothing, even though all I want to see really are vastly better background checks (especially at gun events), limits on certain ammunition purchases, a limit on how many weapons a person can own, and removal of assault rifle style weapons from public hands. That isn't so difficult or painful... is it?

ToTheNines
06-13-2016, 03:20 AM
Pretty sure I don't need to read a single post in this thread to know what's going on here.

Caught some of the story on CNN, which slants and skews everything, always trust them to distort any and all information.
It's ****ing wrong, and there's no justification. There's no argument that makes killing people in a nightclub okay.
Dude could have been a crazy Christian as easily as a Muslim. Religion is the root of all evil, not the guns.

Theism is the most divisive construct we've ever created, next to Capitalism. It's sad that we have insights into the very essence of the universe, an unprecedented network to communicate across the globe instantaneously, tools to remake our world into a veritable utopia, and instead, we all get worked up over whose doing what to whom with their dick.

Our species just doesn't appreciate what we've got.

This. All of it.

And I'll just throw in my 2 cents about gun control..

You could melt down every single firearm in the world, but then there's still always gonna be IED's, chemical/biological warfare, the list goes on. Guns aren't the problem.

Candy Kappa
06-13-2016, 03:22 AM
http://i.imgur.com/YEHurmh.png
http://i.imgur.com/WYlXFLj.png

It's great that large groups openly condemns this, and hopefully more of this will reach the public.

ProactiveMan
06-13-2016, 03:33 AM
Theological argumets instigate, and propagate otherness. Yes, racism is an innate defense mechanism, but religion is the parasite that stimulates the itch; symbolism devised to bind and exclude. It's elevated tribalism.

As for the number of Humans killed in the 20th century, I call foul - if not for the industrial revolution, and vaccines, we'd have stayed at the 1 million mark.

And the driving force, as you say is religion; but one over the other, not the abolishment of it full stop.

It's a tool for war and subjugation, not freedom or peace.

I'm not talking about racism specifically, although it is an example of tribalism, and sure, religion thrives on 'otherness'; so does every other kind of ideology.

It doesn't matter why there were more people in the 20th century, the point is they were killed by ideological movements other than organised religion.

The 'abolishment' I was talking about came from mostly from political movements. Maoism, Communism, National Socialism etc. They sought to extinguish the influence of traditional religion and replace it with their own secular ideologies. I'm not saying this is any worse than the many examples of one religion trying to supplant another; it's the same thing, born of the same impulse.

Commenter 42
06-13-2016, 04:25 AM
I'm not talking about racism specifically, although it is an example of tribalism, and sure, religion thrives on 'otherness'; so does every other kind of ideology.

It doesn't matter why there were more people in the 20th century, the point is they were killed by ideological movements other than organised religion.

The 'abolishment' I was talking about came from mostly from political movements. Maoism, Communism, National Socialism etc. They sought to extinguish the influence of traditional religion and replace it with their own secular ideologies. I'm not saying this is any worse than the many examples of one religion trying to supplant another; it's the same thing, born of the same impulse.

...

So effectively, Humans suck, because we can't escape our nature.

...

Dude, I'm well aware.

Any group of humans require a shared ideology once numbers rise above 2. If we are to share the same space, for almost any period of time, a system is required.

What is not absolutely necessary, in any form, is the worship or belief in the supernatural. That can be flushed away, and we'll all be just fine, It's more trouble than it's worth.
And yes, it absolutely does matter why the numbers are what they are; pointing to the wars of the twentieth century is a fallacious argument, external factors, like a population explosion, erode all points of comparison to past events.
We could get into the percentages, but do you know how many slaves died to build the Pyramids? Do you have the numbers of how many humans were on the planet at the time?

The Deadman
06-13-2016, 05:06 AM
I don't really want to get into the debate but I'll say that ignoring islam as a problem because not all Muslims are murderers is the same defense gun activists use that guns aren't a problem it's the people who use them to kill.

But it's not like guns are growing lips and telling people to use them to go on rampages like this. It's sad how people would rather blame an object over the people that are actually pulling the trigger.

Andrew NDB
06-13-2016, 09:51 AM
What is not absolutely necessary, in any form, is the worship or belief in the supernatural. That can be flushed away, and we'll all be just fine, It's more trouble than it's worth.

There was a time that mankind did need that, but it did outstay its welcome quite some time ago. It's more a of a crutch for the weak nowadays, but I get that it can be pretty deeply ingrained from an early age and a bit hard to shake. Probably harder in third world countries.

If the only thing stopping someone from doing bad things is a spanking from Space Daddy, they have deeper issues at play.

plastroncafe
06-13-2016, 10:17 AM
Guns are a problem.
The people holding the guns are a problem.
This is a multi-faceted problem that isn't going to have a single solution.

Could this have been avoided entirely? Probably not.
Holy Rollers of all stripes have it out for the LGBT community. Always have.
From bathroom bills to denial of next of kin protections. Oh they'll couch it in the name of "Family Values" and "Traditional Values" but that doesn't stop them from praying for the destruction of their fellow man.

Could this have been lessened to a substantial degree with sensical gun laws? I don't have a doubt in my mind.

This guy was on an FBI watch list, and allowed to buy a gun that is capable of having a 100 round capacity. They probably let him do it because they were hoping to catch a bigger fish than him, and in that gamble 50+ people were injured and 50+ people have been killed.

American Foreign Policy sucks out loud. Always has.
We're incapable of playing the long game, and we have a nasty tendency to prop up monsters in the name of cheap oil.

IndigoErth
06-13-2016, 11:04 AM
For all the good that can exist and COULD if we'd allow it... we continue to be a pretty terrible species. And why. Because there's a paranoia that there is always someone out to get us? That equality and equal respect for all is somehow fundamentally going to change our cozy little world? The world was never cozy to begin with! I guess a man in the sky isn't doing what people think it would over things they THINK it supposedly doesn't like, so they have to take it upon themselves?

Some days I regret having to have been born human.

I don't even get how our laws for what is okay and not are so frigging messed up.

Nunchucks... probably not lethal in most cases; capable of putting some distance or basic barrier between you and a possible assailant with one and you'll be okay. Still illegal in some states.

Throwing stars... also probably not lethal in most cases; thrown once before having to be retrieved, doesn't possess any multi-fire ability. Illegal in many states.

[insert every stupid knife law]

Assault riffle... intended for rapid multi-fire and mowing down people in combat. Legal? Sure why the hell not. :x Wtf.

plastroncafe
06-13-2016, 11:07 AM
Let's not forget that we're not allowed to fly with a carry-on containing more than 3 oz of any given liquid. Or without first taking our shoes off. Or without either being molested by security staff or subjected to a full body radiation scan.

It's allergy season, I'll just go to the store for some Sudafed. Oh right, there's a limit to how many I can buy at one time, and I have to show ID in order to purchase a decongestant.

I need to pass an eye exam, written and practical test to get a license to operate a motor vehicle.

pannoni1
06-13-2016, 02:21 PM
My prayers and condolences for all of the victims, their families, friends, advisors, and guardians who experienced or felt the impacts of this indescribable tragedy. This should be taken as a message to anyone who ends up in any public location to always keep a mindful for the quickest way to communicate with authorities and to understand the risks and dangers along with knowledge of understanding what can happen. It doesn't help that religion and spirituality is more hated in more public places than at anytime in history; without such protective forces, people will continue to lose the sense of soberness and will witness more tragedies far too often to the point that not even a social revolution will stop this. Just look at the media with all of the candid pics of his house, promoting such franchises as Star Wars and TMNT itself to the point that they want the "star" of this to be the killer, not the victims which is what we should care about.

:cry:

Electric
06-13-2016, 02:31 PM
But it's not like guns are growing lips and telling people to use them to go on rampages like this. It's sad how people would rather blame an object over the people that are actually pulling the trigger.



No ones saying guns are committing these tragedies. That's a horrible argument. Guns just make it significantly easier for people to do them. And we're legally giving them to just about anyone. That stupid saying "if guns kill people then spoons make people fat" is so off and dumb. You know how people get fat? They eat a lot of unhealthy food. Ever been on a diet before? The solution is to remove unhealthy food. Why can't people understand that's correct analogy to such an unrelated situation.

It'd be harder to harvest crops with a scythe than a tractor.
It's be much harder to get to work without a car.
Similarly it'd be much harder to slaughter 50 people and injure 50 more with out an assault rifle.

These horrible weapons make it so much easier to commit these terrible mass shootings. And unlike a car or a tractor, these assault rifles offer no other true purpose in our world. They don't help private citizens in any way.

sdp
06-13-2016, 02:42 PM
But it's not like guns are growing lips and telling people to use them to go on rampages like this. It's sad how people would rather blame an object over the people that are actually pulling the trigger.

Should anything be legal to buy then?
Tanks, bombs etc.?

The right to bear arms means all restrictions should be done away with and you're free to buy an automatic gun or whatever you please and if restrictions are ok then why can't we have more restrictions to stop people who shouldn't have guns from getting them?

plastroncafe
06-13-2016, 03:00 PM
People routinely forget the "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment.

Netkeeper
06-13-2016, 05:14 PM
They are never, ever going to take our guns away. It's not going to happen. You don't like that? That makes you scared to walk down the street? There are many other countries where you don't have to worry about having that right. Go wild.
This quote is everything I hate about other 'murricans. Gun fanatics sound like crazy ****ing murderers to me, whether it be human lives or animal lives they take makes no difference, because someone that would willingly shoot a deer or rabbit or dog or bear or raccoon or ANY poor animal and enjoy it is a cold-hearted killer anyway in my eyes, and I want nothing to do with a country, much less an entire state, that thinks it's okay.

And oooh, it just had to be topped with "we're 'murrica, we like our guns we think we're the boss we think we're tough **** get big or get out", which is pretty much the worst thing ever, because none of the people that say this ever offer to pay for me to relocate, wouldn't ya know? I have destination choices just lined right up and I'd happily move if I could. I'd love to live where there are no guns and making sure people don't die isn't treated as just another business. Sounds like fun to me, see ya later, if you don't want me here then YOU get me out of here... or deal with me.

snake
06-13-2016, 06:11 PM
This quote is everything I hate about other 'murricans. Gun fanatics sound like crazy ****ing murderers to me, whether it be human lives or animal lives they take makes no difference, because someone that would willingly shoot a deer or rabbit or dog or bear or raccoon or ANY poor animal and enjoy it is a cold-hearted killer anyway in my eyes, and I want nothing to do with a country, much less an entire state, that thinks it's okay.

And oooh, it just had to be topped with "we're 'murrica, we like our guns we think we're the boss we think we're tough **** get big or get out", which is pretty much the worst thing ever, because none of the people that say this ever offer to pay for me to relocate, wouldn't ya know? I have destination choices just lined right up and I'd happily move if I could. I'd love to live where there are no guns and making sure people don't die isn't treated as just another business. Sounds like fun to me, see ya later, if you don't want me here then YOU get me out of here... or deal with me.

You do know most people hunt for food, correct? And have been since humans have been around for? Are you really going to compare hunters to mass murderers? Am I a """cold hearted killer""" for eating meat?

Netkeeper
06-13-2016, 06:35 PM
You do know most people hunt for food, correct? And have been since humans have been around for? Are you really going to compare hunters to mass murderers? Am I a """cold hearted killer""" for eating meat?
Nnnnnot any more bro most people hunt for sport. I don't care about hunting for food, though I can't imagine eating a rabbit you shot will be very pleasant, I've no objection to that.

It's when people shoot for sport and enjoy it like it's some sort of sick game that I don't like. Never have, never will.

Electric
06-13-2016, 07:57 PM
You do know most people hunt for food, correct? And have been since humans have been around for? Are you really going to compare hunters to mass murderers? Am I a """cold hearted killer""" for eating meat?


Speaking from the many people I know that hunt, they don't eat it. They may sell the meat, but they hunt to do it. To say they shot a 12 point buck, or to Frame a deer head on a wall, to post a picture on their social media. It's just a sport to them. They love to go out and shoot things.
They're not doing it to eat the meat, and they sure as hell don't care about population control. They hunt to hunt.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-13-2016, 08:07 PM
Speaking from the many people I know that hunt, they don't eat it. They may sell the meat, but they hunt to do it. To say they shot a 12 point buck, or to Frame a deer head on a wall, to post a picture on their social media. It's just a sport to them. They love to go out and shoot things.
They're not doing it to eat the meat, and they sure as hell don't care about population control. They hunt to hunt.

The few people I know who hunt (or at least who I've talked about it with) actually do eat it.

Darn good venison sausage. But I do find it easy to believe that a majority of people do it for sport.

Commenter 42
06-13-2016, 08:49 PM
Disgusting.

Prayers offered up for a religious attack. Defending madness with the same crazy.

snake
06-13-2016, 09:56 PM
Disgusting.

Prayers offered up for a religious attack. Defending madness with the same crazy.

People wanting consolation after a terror attack? Madness!

Face it, r/atheism, you can say religion does horrible things, but one thing it actually does do is make people feel better.

IndigoErth
06-13-2016, 10:23 PM
Maybe for those who need it to make them be better.

I do fine without, thanks...

Edit: Missed the word "feel." Okay, I still feel fine without. Though I hate the accusations I see online every time something like this happens.

Commenter 42
06-13-2016, 11:00 PM
People wanting consolation after a terror attack? Madness!


Talking to ones self is a sign of madness, yes. Very good


Face it, r/atheism, you can say religion does horrible things, but one thing it actually does do is make people feel better.

Actually, it spreads guilt, fear, and hostility; but why quibble.

And go **** yourself with the pet names.

Electric
06-14-2016, 12:14 AM
Talking to ones self is a sign of madness, yes. Very good



Actually, it spreads guilt, fear, and hostility; but why quibble.

And go **** yourself with the pet names.

Wow, youre just a d**k on every thread.

If people want religion as something to comfort them and others in times of tragedy, no one has the ****ing right to tell them otherwise. **** off.

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2016, 12:27 AM
And I'll just throw in my 2 cents about gun control..

You could melt down every single firearm in the world, but then there's still always gonna be IED's, chemical/biological warfare, the list goes on. Guns aren't the problem.

To add to the discussion and complicate the debate about gun control, the gun supporting community would point out that the 2013 Boston Marathon Bombing was carried out without firearms, and that the January 2015 Charlie Hedbo attacks and the November 2015 Paris attacks still occurred even with France's stricter gun control laws.

ProactiveMan
06-14-2016, 01:16 AM
...

So effectively, Humans suck, because we can't escape our nature.



I think we can try.


What is not absolutely necessary, in any form, is the worship or belief in the supernatural. That can be flushed away, and we'll all be just fine, It's more trouble than it's worth.


Good luck not believing in BS - Everyone does to some degree.


And yes, it absolutely does matter why the numbers are what they are; pointing to the wars of the twentieth century is a fallacious argument, external factors, like a population explosion, erode all points of comparison to past events.


It absolutely doesn't because it isn't a competition - I'm not trying to convince you that one form of social engineering is worse than another, but your point about religion being the cause of all the worlds ills can be refuted by the fact that Mao, Stalin, etc. caused just as much havoc as anyone previously, without a god telling them to do it.


We could get into the percentages, but do you know how many slaves died to build the Pyramids? Do you have the numbers of how many humans were on the planet at the time?

Interesting point; slaves probably didn't build the pyramids.

I can see you're passionate about this, and I don't want to be argumentative, but this topic rubs me the wrong way.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 03:01 AM
Wow, youre just a d**k on every thread.

If people want religion as something to comfort them and others in times of tragedy, no one has the ****ing right to tell them otherwise. **** off.

When fairy tales and make believe cause mass slaughter, they should lose that privilege.
Of the two waring religions, both can be reduced to racism, sexism, and tribalism, hedged on an pyramid scheme.
Big boy pants buddy. People died over who they love. Burden of proof is on the devote, not the rational.

The less imaginary friends we acknowledge, the better.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 03:34 AM
I think we can try.

Good luck not believing in BS - Everyone does to some degree.

It absolutely doesn't because it isn't a competition - I'm not trying to convince you that one form of social engineering is worse than another, but your point about religion being the cause of all the worlds ills can be refuted by the fact that Mao, Stalin, etc. caused just as much havoc as anyone previously, without a god telling them to do it.

Interesting point; slaves probably didn't build the pyramids.

I can see you're passionate about this, and I don't want to be argumentative, but this topic rubs me the wrong way.

No, Religion is not our biggest problem, that would be Water, but okay...
Sure Mao and Stalin were cruel: but for what a few decades? I see your socialism and raise you the Dark Ages...

Yeah, I'm not up on my Egyptology, but what's your argument, the Pharaohs were elected? :lol:

What rubs you the wrong way? People being shot for being Gay? Yeah, it's really ****ed up, especially the "for being gay" part. What kind of backwards, idiotic bunch of asshats would judge people for who they have sex with...

Oh...right.

Mayhem
06-14-2016, 04:18 AM
and that the January 2015 Charlie Hedbo attacks and the November 2015 Paris attacks still occurred even with France's stricter gun control laws.
True, but they had a damn harder time orchestrating it all and actually getting their hands on the weapons, compared to the bloke here who just went into a store and purchased the AR15 with no questions asked the week previous. One mass shooting carried out compared to the (and I'll repeat it here again), ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE already in the US during 2016.

And cue cartoon...


http://amultiverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-13-Pulse-Of-A-Nation.jpg


I suspect many Democrats look at the laws and secretly wish they could ban guns. But they know that is politically impossible, and even proposing it would drive many voters into the arms of NRA-backed Republicans. So they instead focus on a couple of issues. Better background checks, as the ones that exist are ineffective and easily worked around. And allowing research into gun safety, currently banned by Congress (it’s not that they won’t fund it, they actually passed a law I believe banning all research into gun safety!).

It is a bit stupid that people under suspicion of being ISIS supporters can be banned from flying (the no-fly list) but can’t be banned from buying guns. And not just handguns but military assault weapons, the law does not distinguish between them. It is just as ridiculous that significant resources are invested in investigating car safety, product safety, drug safety, but research into gun safety is off limits.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 05:39 AM
I don't know why people are even talking about religion at all when the shooting was more a hate crime than a religiously-fuelled attack anyway. This was straight-up homophobia. There are a lot of frightened LGBT folks out there right now.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 07:14 AM
Because gay men obviously throw themselves off buildings bound to chairs.
Because teen girls just adore unnecessary vag surgery that might kill them
Because a drawing of a fictious character means jihad
Because 50 random people are dead.

Keep telling yourselves the guns are to blame.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 08:29 AM
To add to the discussion and complicate the debate about gun control, the gun supporting community would point out that the 2013 Boston Marathon Bombing was carried out without firearms, and that the January 2015 Charlie Hedbo attacks and the November 2015 Paris attacks still occurred even with France's stricter gun control laws.

Point of order regarding the Boston bombing:
As a result of the attack at the Finish Line people are now no longer allowed to carry bags anywhere along the marathon route. There's an organization of active and inactive military members who used to ruck the marathon until the bombing, but since the no bag rule they can't.

In fact almost all large public events in Boston have a no bag rule.

There are metal detectors at Fenway Park. There are metal detectors at the Garden.

Everything other than guns gets banned somehow after something like this happens.

But hey, I'm sure the fact that the guy was a closet case in a culture where f*gs are considered to be less than human had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And that culture is Florida.

ZariusTwo
06-14-2016, 08:57 AM
This was straight-up homophobia.

Apparently word now is the man had been to the club several times and had even used gay dating apps.

Electric
06-14-2016, 09:16 AM
Because gay men obviously throw themselves off buildings bound to chairs.
Because teen girls just adore unnecessary vag surgery that might kill them
Because a drawing of a fictious character means jihad
Because 50 random people are dead.

Keep telling yourselves the guns are to blame.

Because 12 people were shot and killed in a movie theater and 70 more were injured.
Because 20 children were shot and killed in their own elementary school.
Because 50 people were shot and killed in a night club and 53 more were injured.

Insert restraurant, mall, concert, etc. and vary numbers, and you see a trend, none of which were committed for religious reasons. NONE.

Keep telling yourself guns aren't a problem when each of these mass murderers purchased them legally.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 11:01 AM
Apparently word now is the man had been to the club several times and had even used gay dating apps.
That word is either a bunch of ****, or he's been using those resources for the attack, implying it was planned out.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 11:08 AM
Because the notion that he was a closet case who hated in others what he saw in himself is too outlandish?

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 11:10 AM
No, I considered that as well, but that isn't an angle I want to go with. There are stories of self-hating gay people but I've never seen one personally.

Andrew NDB
06-14-2016, 11:16 AM
The stories coming out now with his wife telling authorities she was literally dropping him off at the club to reconnoiter it lend me to think, while not ruling out the self-hating thing entirely... probably not, no.

The Deadman
06-14-2016, 11:26 AM
I don't know why people are even talking about religion at all when the shooting was more a hate crime than a religiously-fuelled attack anyway. This was straight-up homophobia. There are a lot of frightened LGBT folks out there right now.

You honestly think a dude who was an ISIS supporter didnt kill 50 people because of his religion? You know, the religion of Islam that condemns gays more than Christians do?

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 11:51 AM
Perhaps you should read my post again.

The Deadman
06-14-2016, 11:54 AM
I did, you said you dont know why people are talking about his religion when his religion had everything to do with the crime to begin with, lol.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 12:29 PM
I also said it was more of a hate crime than a religiously-fuelled attack. That means his hatred of LGBT people is more relevant of a detail than his religion, because it's true.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 12:44 PM
Was this the same wife he used to beat?

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 01:45 PM
Because 12 people were shot and killed in a movie theater and 70 more were injured.
Because 20 children were shot and killed in their own elementary school.
Because 50 people were shot and killed in a night club and 53 more were injured, because of his religious views

Insert restraurant, mall, concert, etc. and vary numbers, and you see a trend, none of which were committed for religious reasons. NONE.

Keep telling yourself guns aren't a problem when each of these mass murderers purchased them legally.

Do I really need to use the "guns don't kill people" line?

Religion taints everything, and should be stamped out. Time to grow up.

ZariusTwo
06-14-2016, 01:45 PM
Was this the same wife he used to beat?

No, it's his second wife

Electric
06-14-2016, 01:46 PM
Do I really need to use the "guns don't kill people" line?

Religion taints everything, and should be stamped out.

I would hope you don't, because that's wrong.

Guns allow people to kill people SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

You don't seem to be the brightest, but tell me: would it be easier to kill 50 people and injure 50 more with a knife? Or a gun? Specifically an assault rifle.

Hint: a gun

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 01:47 PM
I would hope you don't, because that's true.


Nice. Glad we could agree.

Electric
06-14-2016, 01:49 PM
Nice. Glad we could agree.


You're not even trying to act mature at this point. Grow up.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 01:52 PM
You're not even trying to act mature at this point. Grow up.
Does he ever?

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 01:56 PM
You're not even trying to act mature at this point. Grow up.

I'm not the one who believes in hocus-pocus and Santa Claus.
But I digress...

I've always wanted to start my own religion, just to see how much money you can make. It's a great racket, if you know a little NLP, and have a fun story.

People are willing to believe in anything , so why not believe in making me Mega-rich? :lol:

Does he ever?

Somebody holds a grudge. :lol:

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 01:58 PM
I'm not religious either, but don't go around treating people that are like trash, Commenter.

I hold no grudge, I'm merely making an observation. Every time I've seen you in one of these threads you're instigating some childish BS, just like you are right now.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 02:04 PM
I'm not religious either, but don't go around treating people that are like trash, Commenter.

Nah, you've just gone around negging me like a pedantic little child ever since Leo left. You never act like a heel, ever. :lol:

back on topic...
I'm sorry, but you can't argue in favor of just one solution, while ignoring the open wound of theism. Guns are the reaction, not the cause. If you don't address it, more of the same follows.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 02:06 PM
You are literally suggesting people ban religion before guns.

When the United States was founded on religious freedom among other values.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 02:10 PM
Nah, you've just gone around negging me like a pedantic little child ever since Leo left. You never act like a heel, ever. :lol:
Well I was gonna move this to your profile but since you have profile comments disabled, guess it ain't going there, it's gonna have to go here.

Perhaps you're making up stories. I've always thought you to be a fool, though maybe you only noticed after Leo left. This forum only has so many people and I'm not making you a personal target because if I was you'd know about it.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 02:14 PM
Religion doesn't kill people.
People kill people.

Religion is a tool used by people.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 02:20 PM
You are literally suggesting people ban religion before guns.

When the United States was founded on religious freedom among other values.


Yes, I am literally saying that. I am not an atheist, but anti-theist.

Well I was gonna move this to your profile but since you have profile comments disabled, guess it ain't going there, it's gonna have to go here.
Perhaps you're making up stories. I've always thought you to be a fool

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i55/5/6/19/frabz-who-you-callin-a-fool--Fool-7a2f98.jpg

Religion doesn't kill people.
People kill people.

Religion is a tool used by people.

Just curious, but how do you reconcile you SJC with, oh I don't know, this:

http://cdn-img.essence.com/sites/default/files/images/embed/burka-ban-300.jpg

I'm not mocking, just wondering.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 02:21 PM
I don't think you know how realistic expectations work.

Jester
06-14-2016, 02:32 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/eb/3b/f6/eb3bf6d2bcf2ecaf1ee944306d115dd2.jpg

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 02:35 PM
Jester, really? Et tu, Brute?

Wait, lemme guess, my posts got flagged!
Golly-gee, wonder who's gone and done that...

Jester
06-14-2016, 02:41 PM
Jester, really? Et tu, Brute?

Wait, lemme guess, my posts got flagged!
Golly-gee, wonder who's gone and done that...
I posted it with no other explication for a reason...not directed any which way.

Seems everything is either black or white anymore. No room for reasoned discussion and nuance.

Electric
06-14-2016, 02:43 PM
But, you know, if the shoe fits...

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 02:48 PM
But, you know, if the shoe fits...
http://i.imgur.com/9oDtyIk.jpg

ToTheNines
06-14-2016, 03:19 PM
I've always wanted to start my own religion, just to see how much money you can make. It's a great racket, if you know a little NLP, and have a fun story.

It can't be that hard. Even ****ing Aum Shinrikyo still has like 2,000 members.


back on topic...
I'm sorry, but you can't argue in favor of just one solution, while ignoring the open wound of theism. Guns are the reaction, not the cause. If you don't address it, more of the same follows.

So I detest religion as much as you, but I gotta ask, what do you do about it? I'd love if everyone would just come to their senses, but I just don't see it happening in our life time.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 03:30 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9oDtyIk.jpg

and yet, I'm the asshole? (http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jun/14/visa-of-anti-gay-muslim-cleric-under-review-says-turnbull)

Laugh it up idiot. Keep laughing when they come after you.
Instead you act all indignant, worrying about gun laws, and not the laws of Islam. Theses duded are spreading hate, no different than the christian right.

Who the **** is the fool dude. Wake the **** up.

The people aren't bad, but the poison in the minds is.

It can't be that hard. Even ****ing Aum Shinrikyo still has like 2,000 members.
So I detest religion as much as you, but I gotta ask, what do you do about it? I'd love if everyone would just come to their senses, but I just don't see it happening in our life time.

Well, it's like any other societal illness. We've moved the needle on bigotry, racism, smoking, sugar, and to some extent Global Warming.
It's about changing the conversation and pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. It's about education, patience, and more education.

Death is the scariest thing there is, so when people are offered the choice between something and nothing... it's hard to reconcile.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 03:33 PM
Oh my god are you implying muslims are going to kill me

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 03:43 PM
Which is entirely different than anti-theist hate, which is good and pure because of its basis in rational thought...or so they keep trying to tell me, right before they insult my intelligence, my gender, and sometimes even my sexual orientation.

snake
06-14-2016, 03:44 PM
Commenter 42, what do you suppose we do about Islam then? What would you do?

Mayhem
06-14-2016, 03:45 PM
When the United States was founded on religious freedom among other values.
While I agree with most of your thoughts, I'm going to pull you up on that one. The pilgrims left for the New World to found a new colony in the Americas so they COULD persecute over religion, because they were not allowed to in England at the time. So it was actually created for the purpose of restricting religious freedoms. Wasn't until the Constitution was signed that this ideology went into the dustbin from government interference.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 03:48 PM
While I agree with most of your thoughts, I'm going to pull you up on that one. The pilgrims left for the New World to found a new colony in the Americas so they COULD persecute over religion, because they were not allowed to in England at the time. So it was actually created for the purpose of restricting religious freedoms. Wasn't until the Constitution was signed that this ideology went into the dustbin from government interference.

There are some historians who believe that the Puritans actually hijacked the Mayflower, and that the Mayflower Compact was written to ease tensions.

These were people who were upset that the world was becoming too secular.
The folks who banned the celebration Christmas for being too pagan.
To call them religious extremists wouldn't be too off the mark.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 03:49 PM
While I agree with most of your thoughts, I'm going to pull you up on that one. The pilgrims left for the New World to found a new colony in the Americas so they COULD persecute over religion, because they were not allowed to in England at the time. So it was actually created for the purpose of restricting religious freedoms. Wasn't until the Constitution was signed that this ideology went into the dustbin from government interference.
Fair enough, I got my details wrong. Can't really blame me when Commenter clearly thinks I'm going to be the victim of another hate crime. :lol:

Cure
06-14-2016, 04:12 PM
Tolerance means accepting people no matter what their religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation, race, gender, status, or anything is. Seems a lot of people in the world, Technodrome Forums included, have forgotten that. Sad times all around.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 04:19 PM
People often equate tolerance of a thing to approval or support of a thing. That isn't the case.

I like the things I like, and for the most part I tolerate the things I don't.

Cure
06-14-2016, 04:21 PM
People often equate tolerance of a thing to approval or support of a thing. That isn't the case.

I like the things I like, and for the most part I tolerate the things I don't.

Oh for sure. Lord and savior Jesus Christ knows I dislike many, MANY people here. But I tolerate them.

CyberCubed
06-14-2016, 04:23 PM
This thread really needs to be locked.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 04:25 PM
Oh for sure. Lord and savior Jesus Christ knows I dislike many, MANY people here. But I tolerate them.

http://i.imgur.com/VcIC6fE.gif

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-14-2016, 04:28 PM
People often equate tolerance of a thing to approval or support of a thing. That isn't the case.

I like the things I like, and for the most part I tolerate the things I don't.

Tolerance means accepting people no matter what their religion or lack thereof, sexual orientation, race, gender, status, or anything is. Seems a lot of people in the world, Technodrome Forums included, have forgotten that. Sad times all around.

You people are so damn sensible. :tlol: I think I'll sit over here with you for this thread, if that's okay...

Aaronardo
06-14-2016, 04:30 PM
This thread really needs to be locked.

Long time no see, catchphrase! But seriously, seconded. From the moment I saw this thread I knew it would just completely go off the rails one way or another.

ToTheNines
06-14-2016, 04:30 PM
This thread really needs to be locked.

Shut up simpleton. Go masturbate.

Raven
06-14-2016, 04:44 PM
People often equate tolerance of a thing to approval or support of a thing. That isn't the case.

I like the things I like, and for the most part I tolerate the things I don't.

Hit it right on the nail, I've found myself guilty of this from time to time. You get so caught up in a cause or stance that you firmly believe that you forget there's a human being on the other side of the conversation.

TheCanadiandrome
06-14-2016, 06:06 PM
I want to appologize to the Mods for this rant, I'll try to sensor myself

I just wanna say my heart goes out to all the families and friends of all the victoms in this horrible and tragic situation. to those who condone this, to hell with all of you, to the person who did this, rot you piece of sh*t! to his retarded wife, who knew what he was going to to, and went with him to help him purchase the weapons and ammo and did nothing to try to stop him, you can go to hell and rot along with your husband you stupid idiot!

bottom line, no matter how one feels, this was a senseless act of hatred, terrism and completely an utterly discusting! this is 2016 for f*cksake people! pull your god forsaken collective heads outta your a$$holes and wake the f*ck up to the world around you! THERE IS NO NEED FOR THINGS LIKE THIS TO HAPPEN!!!!

guns may not kill people but people with guns kill other people! the sooner people wake up and put a stop to all the gun violence the better! the US government needs to see and learn from Canada when it comes to gun control! that being said, i know that our system up here ain't perfect, and im not niave to the fact that yes it has flaws, but it's a heck of alot better than what the US has

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2016, 07:56 PM
But hey, I'm sure the fact that the guy was a closet case in a culture where f*gs are considered to be less than human had absolutely nothing to do with it.

And that culture is Florida.

:-? So.... are you insinuating that the Floridan culture is to blame rather than the individual himself? Because there are many others individuals throughout the world who experience far greater criticism and harsher oppression for their beliefs, and yet don't commit mass murder.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 08:10 PM
Canada doesn't have gun control.

@Netkeeper- I don't just have a problem with Islam; It's the belief in any and all supernatural nonsense. I feel it's a problem that should be solved.

I don't have a problem with the people. It's not a racial prejudice, just to be abundantly clear. I shouldn't have to spell it out, but with you, I can't be sure anymore.

I don't see the problem with education over superstition. I also don't care if you do. Ignorance shouldn't be tolerated "just because".
Tolerance supposes dislike and disdain, but a begrudging attitude we should adopt to keep the peace.
Hardly a rational solution. I believe in challenging the status quo, not group think.

@Plastron I've never insulted your gender, or your sexuality, but thanks once again for vilifying something you supposedly "tolerate". Good work.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 08:12 PM
:-? So.... are you insinuating that the Floridan culture is to blame rather than the individual himself? Because there are many others individuals throughout the world who experience far greater criticism and harsher oppression for their beliefs, and yet don't commit mass murder.

Why not both?

Y
Just curious, but how do you reconcile you SJC with, oh I don't know, this:

http://cdn-img.essence.com/sites/default/files/images/embed/burka-ban-300.jpg

I'm not mocking, just wondering.

Love the URL, seems the person who posted the picture doesn't know the difference between a burka and niqab, which right there says a lot.

Women wearing what they want to wear when they want to wear it reconciles really neatly with my SJC.
Thanks for the softball question.



@Plastron I've never insulted your gender, or your sexuality, but thanks once again for vilifying something you supposedly "tolerate". Good work.

I never said you did.
Not everything is about you.
Unless you're every anti-theist I've ever spoken to online, in which case...seriously, go out and touch some grass for a while.

I don't supposedly tolerate anti-theism, I actually tolerate it.
I'd have more sympathy for it as a 'movement' if it didn't give me so much contact embarrassment.

Electric
06-14-2016, 08:43 PM
Hold on Commenter. Freedom of religion is a constitutional right.
If you're all for throwing it out because you don't think people should be allowed to "just because"
What on earth makes you think people should have assault rifles, "just because"

There's no reason for them

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2016, 08:44 PM
Why not both?
I would simply disagree with that and say that the responsibility falls on the perpetrator himself in this case.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 08:51 PM
I would simply disagree with that and say that the responsibility falls on the perpetrator himself in this case.

If that makes you feel better, go with it.
However, I think you're doing the situation a great injustice by negating the context which lead to this event in the first place.

This guy didn't come from nowhere. He didn't just appear out of thin air with absolutely no extenuating circumstances in his wake. He didn't just become homophobic on his own.

Jephael
06-14-2016, 08:55 PM
Such a scary world we live in these days. Times like this I wish the fictional characters we all come here to talk about were real.

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2016, 08:56 PM
If that makes you feel better, go with it.
However, I think you're doing the situation a great injustice by negating the context which lead to this event in the first place.

This guy didn't come from nowhere. He didn't just appear out of thin air with absolutely no extenuating circumstances in his wake. He didn't just become homophobic on his own.

Could you elaborate?:-?

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 09:03 PM
Hold on Commenter. Freedom of religion is a constitutional right.
If you're all for throwing it out because you don't think people should be allowed to "just because"
What on earth makes you think people should have assault rifles, "just because"

There's no reason for them

Where did I argue for people to have assault riffles? Why is that your argument?

Arguing for the first amendment, while wanting to overturn the second seems, well, kind of odd.

But if you can play that game, I guess I can too? Keep the guns, ban religion.

There. I'll counter your flawed argument with a mirrored version.

Lets now solve for x.

plastroncafe
06-14-2016, 09:05 PM
Elaborate? On which part?
That we are, all of us, products of our environment?
Yes, ultimately responsible for our own actions and deeds, but by foisting all of the blame on this guy we allow the instigators of his actions to walk free.

There are news outlets that are purposely not mentioning that this was an attack on a gay bar. An attack on a gay bar during Pride.
The closest equivalent I can think of is attacking a church during Holy Week.

Why leave something like that out?
Oh right, because then people might have to actually come to grip with the fact that gay people are people. People who can be fired because of who they go home to at the end of the work day. People who can be denied custody of children. People who can be denied next of kin rights.

People who some people choose not to see as people.

Commenter 42
06-14-2016, 09:19 PM
Elaborate? On which part?
That we are, all of us, products of our environment?
Yes, ultimately responsible for our own actions and deeds, but by foisting all of the blame on this guy we allow the instigators of his actions to walk free.

There are news outlets that are purposely not mentioning that this was an attack on a gay bar. An attack on a gay bar during Pride.
The closest equivalent I can think of is attacking a church during Holy Week.

Why leave something like that out?
Oh right, because then people might have to actually come to grip with the fact that gay people are people. People who can be fired because of who they go home to at the end of the work day. People who can be denied custody of children. People who can be denied next of kin rights.

People who some people choose not to see as people.

I love that I was arguing this, and yet, when you add "religion" you get equally defensive.

Which is it Plastron? You can't defend both positions.

Netkeeper
06-14-2016, 09:35 PM
@Netkeeper- I don't just have a problem with Islam; It's the belief in any and all supernatural nonsense. I feel it's a problem that should be solved.

I don't have a problem with the people. It's not a racial prejudice, just to be abundantly clear. I shouldn't have to spell it out, but with you, I can't be sure anymore.

I don't see the problem with education over superstition. I also don't care if you do. Ignorance shouldn't be tolerated "just because".
Tolerance supposes dislike and disdain, but a begrudging attitude we should adopt to keep the peace.
Hardly a rational solution. I believe in challenging the status quo, not group think.
Hold on hold up. Guy.

Don't try and ignore that I pointed out that you basically told an out gay dude that they'll come for me. In this particular thread.

I'm not gonna even engage anything else you have to say, because really, man? Have some class.

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2016, 09:39 PM
Elaborate? On which part?
That we are, all of us, products of our environment?
Yes, ultimately responsible for our own actions and deeds, but by foisting all of the blame on this guy we allow the instigators of his actions to walk free.

There are news outlets that are purposely not mentioning that this was an attack on a gay bar. An attack on a gay bar during Pride.
The closest equivalent I can think of is attacking a church during Holy Week.

Why leave something like that out?
Oh right, because then people might have to actually come to grip with the fact that gay people are people. People who can be fired because of who they go home to at the end of the work day. People who can be denied custody of children. People who can be denied next of kin rights.

People who some people choose not to see as people.

...So how would you interpret "the instigators" of his actions? Who exactly are they in this case for the perpetrator then? And how do they directly tie into this situation?

Machias Banshee
06-14-2016, 09:51 PM
Okay, this is clearly getting out of hand.


Take a breather, peeps...