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View Full Version : Peter Laird reacts to OotS' failure


Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 04:25 PM
From his TMNT Blog:

My question:

I don't know if the shelf life on this particular Q&A is already done, but I'll shoot one anyway.

With the new movie, "TMNT: Out of the Shadows" vastly underperforming on track by most outlets to barely squeak to 100 million domestically by the end of its run (well under its production budget, let alone the marketing budget which is very likely 100 million itself by general practices), it's very unlikely at this point any further sequels will be greenlit. It's done.

My question is: how do you feel about this? Are you happy that it is a failure (I know I am)? Are you ambivalent? It's the sum of all of my, and I suspect your fears... you know, "The Big Dumb Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang Movie™," as all of the marketing rests heavily on.

His response:

Andrew, it may be too early to justifiably and conclusively call the new TMNT live-action movie ("Out of the Shadows") a failure -- I believe it's only been out a week or so, as of this writing. Maybe it is possible, statistically-speaking, to make these kinds of judgements based on the existing numbers -- I don't have that kind of specialized knowledge.

(I should mention that I have not yet seen the movie.)

If it IS a failure, it's not entirely clear what made it so. Was it the look of the movie? The writing? The acting? The story? The effects? Casey Jones with a buzzcut?Something else? A combination of some or all of the above? Hard to say.

It might be possible to lay the blame -- or at least SOME of it -- on the filmmakers' decision to so prominently feature some of the goofier characters from the first animated TMNT series. As you might guess, if I were still in the position to make such decisions, they would never have been included. But that's just me.

While I have not seen the movie yet, I have heard mention that it is rife with crass and crude "comedy". Could that have something to do with its apparent lack of success? Are audiences getting weary of this kind of thing? Hard to say.

It is somewhat rare that I am "happy" that something is a failure, especially in the realm of movies. I know that a lot of dedicated people put in LOTS of earnest effort to make the movie they're working on the best possible movie that their efforts can make it… and all too often, such sincere efforts go to waste due to decisions made "at the top". I am loathe to wish failure on such folks and don't really think it's appropriate to be "happy" when such failure happens, except to some degree in those situations where such failure actually makes the world arguably a better place. -- PL

CyberCubed
06-23-2016, 04:35 PM
Well that's about as much as a response as I would expect. Although I must admit, him signaling out Casey Jones' buzzcut of all things was amusing.

Shark_Blade
06-23-2016, 05:06 PM
His opinion is not really relevant tbh. That's like asking George Lucas what he thinks of new Star Wars. Who cares.

plastroncafe
06-23-2016, 05:15 PM
http://66.media.tumblr.com/009b650f0800b3edae9887681a5c69b7/tumblr_inline_ncojlghwPl1qebdjs.gif

I mean, if for no other reason than morbid curiosity.

Bry
06-23-2016, 05:26 PM
How is his opinion "irrelevant" if he co-created the damn thing? You might not agree with him, but I think his opinion automatically holds some weight.

Like, I don't really agree with George Lucas' stance on Star Wars, but I sure as hell respect his opinion and his right to state it.

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 05:34 PM
His opinion is not really relevant tbh. That's like asking George Lucas what he thinks of new Star Wars. Who cares.
Very true, they can ask is for his opinions on that stuff, and it will not reflect on the property, since he no longer has the rights to it.

He only hates Bebop and Rocksteady, but a large majority of the fans say otherwise.

Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 05:42 PM
How is his opinion "irrelevant" if he co-created the damn thing? You might not agree with him, but I think his opinion automatically holds some weight.

Like, I don't really agree with George Lucas' stance on Star Wars, but I sure as hell respect his opinion and his right to state it.

Absolutely.

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 05:54 PM
What Peter Laird refer to as goofy characters, I see them as fun characters.

ToTheNines
06-23-2016, 05:57 PM
TigerClaw and Shark_Blade's opinions are irrelevant.

d_osborn
06-23-2016, 06:00 PM
It is somewhat rare that I am "happy" that something is a failure, especially in the realm of movies. I know that a lot of dedicated people put in LOTS of earnest effort to make the movie they're working on the best possible movie that their efforts can make it… and all too often, such sincere efforts go to waste due to decisions made "at the top". I am loathe to wish failure on such folks and don't really think it's appropriate to be "happy" when such failure happens, except to some degree in those situations where such failure actually makes the world arguably a better place. -- PL
Classy dude!

I'm not sure why fans are saying that his opinions don't count. We're all fans here... he's one of the creators that ran the franchise for almost thirty years! I think it's VERY interesting to get his thoughts on what's going on with the property.

I love the ASK PL threads.

Autbot_Benz
06-23-2016, 06:02 PM
TigerClaw and Shark_Blade's opinions are irrelevant.

pretty much this!

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 06:06 PM
TigerClaw and Shark_Blade's opinions are irrelevant.
You're opinions are irrelevant too. :P\

In fact a lot of opinions that's been going around here have been irrelevant around here.

Bry
06-23-2016, 06:09 PM
He only hates Bebop and Rocksteady, but a large majority of the fans say otherwise.

The same large majority of the fans who apparently didn't go to see this movie?

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 06:10 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today, when Nickelodeon bought the property and created that series, its more popular then ever.

Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 06:13 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today.

Even if what it currently resembles is the very antithesis of it? A constant reminder that with you no longer there to right the ship, the property in just about every medium is doing the exact opposite of everything you fought so hard to prevent?

I dunno... I doubt it. Maybe on some level.

NinjaPug
06-23-2016, 06:15 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today, when Nickelodeon bought the property and created that series, its more popular then ever.

You have such a simplistic view of everything.

TMNT is not more popular than ever either.

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 06:19 PM
Isn't Peter Laird getting a cut of the revenue that TMNT is making?

Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 06:20 PM
Isn't Peter Laird getting a cut of the revenue that TMNT is making?

Now? Not at all.

Ninjinister
06-23-2016, 06:23 PM
I'm with him about not being happy about something failing. That should never be an outcome. That just makes you a dick if you are... even a competitor failing shouldn't be good news to one.

Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 06:48 PM
I'm with him about not being happy about something failing. That should never be an outcome. That just makes you a dick if you are... even a competitor failing shouldn't be good news to one.

If this was some art film or labor of love of somebody, sure. It's not, on any front. It's just a $ recipe boiled together by studio executives trying to maximize profit, placing toy revenue paramount while targeting the lowest common denominator the whole way through.

The only people to feel bad about in any of this is guys like Amell, and maybe the Turtle cast themselves. They didn't know what they were getting into.

The Fifth Turtle
06-23-2016, 06:57 PM
I'm with him about not being happy about something failing. That should never be an outcome. That just makes you a dick if you are... even a competitor failing shouldn't be good news to one.

So Andrew is a dick as well as a broken record? I kid, I kid :lol:

Galactus
06-23-2016, 06:59 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today, when Nickelodeon bought the property and created that series, its more popular then ever.

Well if the movie's box office is any indication then it really isn't as popular as people were banking on...at least not in it's current iteration.

I actually think it's interesting that more people were willing to take a chance on a TMNT movie that initially looked like it was going in terms of visual and tone the wrong direction but a movie is heavily promoted as fixing all this and embracing a direction people have shouted for years is the sure fire route to success and then much less people were interested.

TurtleTitan97
06-23-2016, 07:01 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today, when Nickelodeon bought the property and created that series, its more popular then ever.

What ridiculous (and honestly somewhat moronic) line of thinking.

If anything, thanks to these films, the Turtles are now a bigger joke in the eyes of the general public than before.

Bry
06-23-2016, 07:11 PM
Peter may have opinions on the current state of TMNT, but he should be happy that its still popular today.

be thankful that the thing you create is still relevant today, when Nickelodeon bought the property and created that series, its more popular then ever.

It's so amazingly popular that the movie's been deemed a failure and is being blamed for plummeting Viacom shares!

https://s32.postimg.org/p2ej0zwyt/viacom.jpg

It's kind of silly to talk about what Peter Laird "should" think about this. He ran the property for 25 years, he knows how it works, and he's got every reason to (potentially) have issues with seeing something he worked hard on being misrepresented by an inferior product.

I actually think it's interesting that more people were willing to take a chance on a TMNT movie that initially looked like it was going in terms of visual and tone the wrong direction but a movie is heavily promoted as fixing all this and embracing a direction people have shouted for years is the sure fire route to success and then much less people were interested.

Well, there was a sense of mystery about the 2014 movie (at least to the casual audience). It had been a while since a major TMNT movie was released and the nostalgia waters were just right. And once they saw what Platinum Dunes brought to the table, most of them... weren't impressed.

Maybe most people saw through the lazy nostalgia-pandering this time? Quite a few people saw the 2014 movie, and only about half of them bothered checking out this one, so that's a lot of people who were potentially turned off enough that even the aggressive Fred Wolf-oriented marketing couldn't sway them.

OA
06-23-2016, 07:15 PM
It is somewhat rare that I am "happy" that something is a failure, especially in the realm of movies. I know that a lot of dedicated people put in LOTS of earnest effort to make the movie they're working on the best possible movie that their efforts can make it… and all too often, such sincere efforts go to waste due to decisions made "at the top". I am loathe to wish failure on such folks and don't really think it's appropriate to be "happy" when such failure happens, except to some degree in those situations where such failure actually makes the world arguably a better place. -- PL[/B]

This is what sticks out to me and honestly is a major reason I haven't really liked venturing into this side of the drome of late. The sheer JOY people seem to get out of seeing the failure of not just anything, but the Turtles who we are all fans of, it's really disheartening. I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted? Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on? It's amazing the "experts" around here who know exactly why it's failing and how to fix it. But really it boils down to what Pete said, rooting for anything to fail that doesn't make the world a better place, just seems flat out wrong. I only hope that you don't find yourselves one day on the other side of fence, being spat upon with glee, for a bad decision you made. That you don't pour your heart and soul (and maybe hundreds of millions) into something that while it fails, you get laughed right in the face. But in the meantime, carry on...

d_osborn
06-23-2016, 07:33 PM
This is what sticks out to me and honestly is a major reason I haven't really liked venturing into this side of the drome of late. The sheer JOY people seem to get out of seeing the failure of not just anything, but the Turtles who we are all fans of, it's really disheartening. I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted? Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on? It's amazing the "experts" around here who know exactly why it's failing and how to fix it. But really it boils down to what Pete said, rooting for anything to fail that doesn't make the world a better place, just seems flat out wrong. I only hope that you don't find yourselves one day on the other side of fence, being spat upon with glee, for a bad decision you made. That you don't pour your heart and soul (and maybe hundreds of millions) into something that while it fails, you get laughed right in the face. But in the meantime, carry on...
I couldn't have said it any better myself. Very classy response from Laird.

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 07:45 PM
This is what sticks out to me and honestly is a major reason I haven't really liked venturing into this side of the drome of late. The sheer JOY people seem to get out of seeing the failure of not just anything, but the Turtles who we are all fans of, it's really disheartening. I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted? Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on? It's amazing the "experts" around here who know exactly why it's failing and how to fix it. But really it boils down to what Pete said, rooting for anything to fail that doesn't make the world a better place, just seems flat out wrong. I only hope that you don't find yourselves one day on the other side of fence, being spat upon with glee, for a bad decision you made. That you don't pour your heart and soul (and maybe hundreds of millions) into something that while it fails, you get laughed right in the face. But in the meantime, carry on...
That's a great point, TMNT is hear to stay regardless of what versions we have.

Bry
06-23-2016, 07:52 PM
I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted?

Honestly? I lived through the "dead time" too, and looking back, I'm glad it happened. TMNT had earned a time-out. That increasing glut of lazy, cheap cash-in projects hurt the overall brand and drove it into the ground. I get that nobody wants to see something they love go away, but if it's all quantity and no quality, then what's the point of it continuing? Better to burn out quickly and come back stronger years down the line.

Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on?

I'd hope that each iteration would thrive or fail on their own merits. But I think supporting something we consider poor for the sake of propping up the overall property is a pretty terrible idea -- lowering your standards just to get more product isn't fandom, it's addiction.

Personally? I think there's a difference between "celebrating its failure" and hoping its failure means better things in the future. While I am glad that this series might be at an end, it's not because I want the property to fail -- it's that I think these movies were a failure to the property, and I wish they'd done better in the first place.

NinjaPug
06-23-2016, 07:53 PM
That's a great point, TMNT is hear to stay regardless of what versions we have.

That's not what he said at all

Xav
06-23-2016, 08:41 PM
He only hates Bebop and Rocksteady, but a large majority of the fans say otherwise.He also hates Venus as well.

OA
06-23-2016, 08:42 PM
Honestly? I lived through the "dead time" too, and looking back, I'm glad it happened. TMNT had earned a time-out. That increasing glut of lazy, cheap cash-in projects hurt the overall brand and drove it into the ground. I get that nobody wants to see something they love go away, but if it's all quantity and no quality, then what's the point of it continuing? Better to burn out quickly and come back stronger years down the line.

I'd hope that each iteration would thrive or fail on their own merits. But I think supporting something we consider poor for the sake of propping up the overall property is a pretty terrible idea -- lowering your standards just to get more product isn't fandom, it's addiction.

Personally? I think there's a difference between "celebrating its failure" and hoping its failure means better things in the future. While I am glad that this series might be at an end, it's not because I want the property to fail -- it's that I think these movies were a failure to the property, and I wish they'd done better in the first place.

To be clear, my issue is not so much the apparent failure of the project. You are right, we want quality over quantity. We shouldn't support a poor showing just to save a franchise, and constructive criticism is awesome. My point is that, and I'm certain you've seen it, so much of the noise around here is "The witch is dead!" "Yahoo, look at those terrible box office numbers!" etc. That celebrating of failure, the seething vitriol that plagues most of these threads lately, comes across as simply mean-spirited rather than helpful. And generally it's the same people, beating the dead horse in thread after thread, looking for more creative ways to express an obvious joy of the demise of the movie... that's the stuff that bums me out.

ProactiveMan
06-23-2016, 08:45 PM
I’m always interested in what Peter Laird has to say about Ninja Turtles; his opinions don’t necessarily match my own, but that’s OK. I appreciate his ability to respond to things he doesn’t approve of in a measured and civilised way too, especially nowadays when public discourse seldom rises above the level of ‘sarcastic teenager’.

TigerClaw
06-23-2016, 08:54 PM
To be clear, my issue is not so much the apparent failure of the project. You are right, we want quality over quantity. We shouldn't support a poor showing just to save a franchise, and constructive criticism is awesome. My point is that, and I'm certain you've seen it, so much of the noise around here is "The witch is dead!" "Yahoo, look at those terrible box office numbers!" etc. That celebrating of failure, the seething vitriol that plagues most of these threads lately, comes across as simply mean-spirited rather than helpful. And generally it's the same people, beating the dead horse in thread after thread, looking for more creative ways to express an obvious joy of the demise of the movie... that's the stuff that bums me out.
Yeah, sucks seeing this type of behavior going on around here, I enjoyed the new movie, cause it lived up to my expectations, those type of expectations maybe different from other people, but it delivered in what I wanted to see.

a lot of people outside these boards are expressing the same things, that I felt about this movie, It's just that 1% that's trying to be a downer.

ToTheNines
06-23-2016, 09:05 PM
Lol ok TC. 1% of us are "downers", that's why this movie is a ****ing financial CRISIS in the states.

I honestly would have been so much easier on OotS if there were actual fights, but it was a totally neutered baby movie. Probably would have made just as much profit and been better off if the made a Half Shell Heroes movie.

IndigoErth
06-23-2016, 09:08 PM
It's just that 1% that's trying to be a downer.
I thought that was called being disappointed and freely having the right to express it. That's just as valid... it's not them being a "downer" on anyone else unless those who are pleased with it believe only they have the valid opinion.

And pretty sure it's a lot bigger than 1%.



To me... the real downer is the fact that while I felt the Turtles as characters were done very well (sans a couple instances of cartoony Raph stuff), the rest of the film didn't measure up to that aspect of it.

Technogeek29
06-23-2016, 09:34 PM
I pick apart the narrative once I notice something is wrong. Hence my grievances with the movie. But hey I'm just a 1% downer what do I know?

Andrew NDB
06-23-2016, 09:41 PM
I pick apart the narrative once I notice something is wrong. Hence my grevicances with the movie. But hey I'm just a 1% downer what do I know?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LHSwAieH-CU/UGqU_8wR1DI/AAAAAAAAA1Q/cCIPDQirFdw/s426/I-am-the-1-percent-Bearman-Cartoons.png

Redeemer
06-23-2016, 10:10 PM
From his TMNT Blog:

My question:

I don't know if the shelf life on this particular Q&A is already done, but I'll shoot one anyway.

With the new movie, "TMNT: Out of the Shadows" vastly underperforming on track by most outlets to barely squeak to 100 million domestically by the end of its run (well under its production budget, let alone the marketing budget which is very likely 100 million itself by general practices), it's very unlikely at this point any further sequels will be greenlit. It's done.

My question is: how do you feel about this? Are you happy that it is a failure (I know I am)? Are you ambivalent? It's the sum of all of my, and I suspect your fears... you know, "The Big Dumb Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang Movie™," as all of the marketing rests heavily on.

His response:

Andrew, it may be too early to justifiably and conclusively call the new TMNT live-action movie ("Out of the Shadows") a failure -- I believe it's only been out a week or so, as of this writing. Maybe it is possible, statistically-speaking, to make these kinds of judgements based on the existing numbers -- I don't have that kind of specialized knowledge.

(I should mention that I have not yet seen the movie.)

If it IS a failure, it's not entirely clear what made it so. Was it the look of the movie? The writing? The acting? The story? The effects? Casey Jones with a buzzcut?Something else? A combination of some or all of the above? Hard to say.

It might be possible to lay the blame -- or at least SOME of it -- on the filmmakers' decision to so prominently feature some of the goofier characters from the first animated TMNT series. As you might guess, if I were still in the position to make such decisions, they would never have been included. But that's just me.

While I have not seen the movie yet, I have heard mention that it is rife with crass and crude "comedy". Could that have something to do with its apparent lack of success? Are audiences getting weary of this kind of thing? Hard to say.

It is somewhat rare that I am "happy" that something is a failure, especially in the realm of movies. I know that a lot of dedicated people put in LOTS of earnest effort to make the movie they're working on the best possible movie that their efforts can make it… and all too often, such sincere efforts go to waste due to decisions made "at the top". I am loathe to wish failure on such folks and don't really think it's appropriate to be "happy" when such failure happens, except to some degree in those situations where such failure actually makes the world arguably a better place. -- PL

If I didn't know better I would have sworn LeBron James wrote this :lol:

Its obvious Peter Laird has been Q's from LeBron's Passive Aggressive style :lol:

RETTEB SNATAS
06-23-2016, 10:13 PM
This is what sticks out to me and honestly is a major reason I haven't really liked venturing into this side of the drome of late. The sheer JOY people seem to get out of seeing the failure of not just anything, but the Turtles who we are all fans of, it's really disheartening. I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted? Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on? It's amazing the "experts" around here who know exactly why it's failing and how to fix it. But really it boils down to what Pete said, rooting for anything to fail that doesn't make the world a better place, just seems flat out wrong. I only hope that you don't find yourselves one day on the other side of fence, being spat upon with glee, for a bad decision you made. That you don't pour your heart and soul (and maybe hundreds of millions) into something that while it fails, you get laughed right in the face. But in the meantime, carry on...

To be clear, my issue is not so much the apparent failure of the project. You are right, we want quality over quantity. We shouldn't support a poor showing just to save a franchise, and constructive criticism is awesome. My point is that, and I'm certain you've seen it, so much of the noise around here is "The witch is dead!" "Yahoo, look at those terrible box office numbers!" etc. That celebrating of failure, the seething vitriol that plagues most of these threads lately, comes across as simply mean-spirited rather than helpful. And generally it's the same people, beating the dead horse in thread after thread, looking for more creative ways to express an obvious joy of the demise of the movie... that's the stuff that bums me out.

Wow..

https://media.giphy.com/media/snwniX35f3nG0/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

ToTheNines
06-23-2016, 10:39 PM
Wow..

https://media.giphy.com/media/snwniX35f3nG0/giphy-facebook_s.jpg

Eat my ass Michael. For real though.... honestly liked 13 Hours.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-23-2016, 11:36 PM
I would like to hear what Laird says after he DOES get to watch the film. Who knows if he even will though? If he's not a fan of Bebop and Rocksteady then I would imagine he wouldn't have much fun watching this.

CyberCubed
06-23-2016, 11:53 PM
I would like to hear what Laird says after he DOES get to watch the film. Who knows if he even will though? If he's not a fan of Bebop and Rocksteady then I would imagine he wouldn't have much fun watching this.

He's seen all the TMNT movies at least once.

Commenter 42
06-24-2016, 12:43 AM
For real? am I reading this ********, like for real?

@OA, y'all got some serious Stockholm syndrome brother.

@Andrew's gone off the reservation, true, but so what? Dudes fed up; they FUBAR'd his favorite thing, with Extreme prejudice.

That hurts. It hurts the fans, and the franchise.

WE paid the MONEY to keep the franchise alive, for years.
The star told us to fvck off. The producer called us Haters. Michael Bay said Chill. The **** head concept artist told us to move on.

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/03/a2/03a2230ddeec1535d6287ba01acc4e27.jpg?itok=apH5IWC0

Between ^^this, and nothing at all, I'm picking the latter.


And finally, the public seems to agree. It's a victory, yes. Cheering for folks to lose isn't cool, but WE warned them. They didn't listen.


Don't worry, Bay will be fine aboard his private jet. He doesn't care. He's off further ****ing up Transformers, with Merlin and Stonehenge, Marky-Mark, and...

http://cdn3.themovienetwork.com/sites/themovienetwork.com/files/imagecache/630x375/clm8-mtweaezmxl.jpg

As Vespa, that transforms into sadness and despair...


As for TC and his buddies, they'll love anything and everything; so pleasing them isn't the objective.
One way or another H'wood will learn not to piss on fandoms. If anything, that's the lesson of 2016, on all counts.

Coola Yagami
06-24-2016, 12:57 AM
As for TC and his buddies, they'll love anything and everything; so pleasing them isn't the objective.
One way or another H'wood will learn not to piss on fandoms. If anything, that's the lesson of 2016, on all counts.

Naw. I bet if we ever get a more faithful movie that totally rocks the house similar to how batman begins revived batman for movie audiences they're totally gonna turn around and be all like 'yes, this is movie we've all been waiting for, we all knew the Bay movies sucked'. Hypocrits.

Just like now suddenly everyone agrees the first movie sucked even though at the the time it caused such a huge divide here.

The problem is, they don't see the big picture. They think this is the be all end all. Either bayturtles or there'll never ever be another tmnt movie ever again. Of course not. Sooner or later someone will pick it up. And it'll be better than this ****.

Commenter 42
06-24-2016, 01:02 AM
Naw. I bet if we ever get a more faithful movie that totally rocks the house similar to how batman begins revived batman for movie audiences they're totally gonna turn around and be all like 'yes, this is movie we've all been waiting for, we all knew the Bay movies sucked'. Hypocrits.

Just like now suddenly everyone agrees the first movie sucked even though at the the time it caused such a huge divide here.

The problem is, they don't see the big picture. They think this is the be all end all. Either bayturtles or there'll never ever be another tmnt movie ever again. Of course not. Sooner or later someone will pick it up. And it'll be better than this ****.

Deadpool turned the key; we're just waiting for somebody else to actually open the door.

Freeman
06-24-2016, 03:26 AM
Lowering your standards just to get more product isn't fandom, it's addiction.

The one and only sentence I'd save from this thread.
I can see Laird beeing diplomatic about the movie because he doesn't want to open fire against Viacom/Bay (and somehow Eastman).
But we has target of the movie, as the ones who outraged with the deep ignorance of the franchise from Bay, have the right to rise our voices.
I do belive the plot this time was better constructed than on the first movie, but dialogues weren't enough, Shredders ending did not bring any show at all and we saw no scene of 4 turtles kicking us to 200 foot ninjas.

Better concepts in some points, but still a weak execution relying on too many fart jokes.

Bry
06-24-2016, 07:08 AM
To be clear, my issue is not so much the apparent failure of the project. You are right, we want quality over quantity. We shouldn't support a poor showing just to save a franchise, and constructive criticism is awesome. My point is that, and I'm certain you've seen it, so much of the noise around here is "The witch is dead!" "Yahoo, look at those terrible box office numbers!" etc. That celebrating of failure, the seething vitriol that plagues most of these threads lately, comes across as simply mean-spirited rather than helpful. And generally it's the same people, beating the dead horse in thread after thread, looking for more creative ways to express an obvious joy of the demise of the movie... that's the stuff that bums me out.

I can understand that, and I think we're on the same page in a lot of ways... I think the environment here is the "why" of it, though. And yeah, there's definitely a fair share of mean-spiritedness here. There's been a lot of constructive criticism too, but even that seems to inspire a bunch of angry defensiveness over any criticism. But yeah, you're right, there's been a ton of hostility from both sides over these movies, and I don't really know what the answer to that is... so a part of me is just hoping, if this series is over, the property can move on and the hostility will just die out already.

I'll admit I'm biased -- I think Platinum Dunes is a pretty terrible production company (nothing against anyone there personally, but they've literally never made a good movie), I know the TMNT property can and should produce better movies (and I'm tired of the bad ones increasingly outnumbering the good), and feel like the Bayhem style has had a very negative influence on blockbuster filmmaking. If this movie failing helps solve those problems, or at least tick things slightly in the other direction, then I can't help but feel glad for it.

Coola Yagami
06-24-2016, 07:39 AM
To be clear, my issue is not so much the apparent failure of the project. You are right, we want quality over quantity. We shouldn't support a poor showing just to save a franchise, and constructive criticism is awesome. My point is that, and I'm certain you've seen it, so much of the noise around here is "The witch is dead!" "Yahoo, look at those terrible box office numbers!" etc. That celebrating of failure, the seething vitriol that plagues most of these threads lately, comes across as simply mean-spirited rather than helpful. And generally it's the same people, beating the dead horse in thread after thread, looking for more creative ways to express an obvious joy of the demise of the movie... that's the stuff that bums me out.

This movie has to die for a better one to someday rise.

TrickOrTreater
06-24-2016, 08:07 AM
I love Peter Laird. He is trying SO HARD to be diplomatic while still being honest.

But oh man, does he want to open up on these movies so bad. For almost exactly the same reasons a lot of us DO.

The Casey Jones buzz cut line is a dead giveaway. Bringing it up at all shows how much he downright dislikes this garbage.

Also I'd dance on this movie's grave if I could.

Krutch
06-24-2016, 08:57 AM
This is what sticks out to me and honestly is a major reason I haven't really liked venturing into this side of the drome of late. The sheer JOY people seem to get out of seeing the failure of not just anything, but the Turtles who we are all fans of, it's really disheartening. I get not liking the movie, maybe even hating it, but to do a virtual dance as you watch it plummet...? Is that really good for the franchise, for it to be buried under a rock to maybe see the light of day again in a couple decades? Those of us around back when there was nothing, that dead time after Next mutation before the comics started anew...is that what is really wanted? Things don't happen in a vaccuum and it's possible that the utter failure of the movie could leach into other tmnt entities (cartoon, comics, etc.) so why root this on? It's amazing the "experts" around here who know exactly why it's failing and how to fix it. But really it boils down to what Pete said, rooting for anything to fail that doesn't make the world a better place, just seems flat out wrong. I only hope that you don't find yourselves one day on the other side of fence, being spat upon with glee, for a bad decision you made. That you don't pour your heart and soul (and maybe hundreds of millions) into something that while it fails, you get laughed right in the face. But in the meantime, carry on...Amen, brother. Also the reason why I rarely venture into these forums. There's like 10 threads open with the smallest variations all basically saying "So, now that the movie FAILED and SUCKS...let's talk about _____". It's just immature. And it's not like I'm gaga over the damn movie either. Not be a long shot.

Coola Yagami
06-24-2016, 09:03 AM
Well... it did fail and suck. And based on the first one, shame on anyone expecting much better.

This movie series must die for a better one to someday rise.

I mean can you imagine if we never got the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy because we kept getting Schumacher sequels? Or hell, if they made more movies after tmnt 3? I mean I loved the first two but after 3 it was the right time to end because it only would have gotten worse from there. Or just imagine if they kept cranking out transformers sequels...oh wait...

TrickOrTreater
06-24-2016, 09:17 AM
Amen, brother. Also the reason why I rarely venture into these forums. There's like 10 threads open with the smallest variations all basically saying "So, now that the movie FAILED and SUCKS...let's talk about _____". It's just immature. And it's not like I'm gaga over the damn movie either. Not be a long shot.

"Waaahhh, people aren't nice to a movie that sucks."

Krutch
06-24-2016, 10:01 AM
Well... it did fail and suck.
Former is fact, latter is subjective.

This movie series must die for a better one to someday rise.Not necessarily true. On another thread I showed how each TMNT sequel always underperforms expectations and are critical failures, and at some point someone is going to take notice that TMNT might just be a franchise best left for comics and TV.

I mean can you imagine if we never got the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy because we kept getting Schumacher sequels? Or hell, if they made more movies after tmnt 3? I mean I loved the first two but after 3 it was the right time to end because it only would have gotten worse from there. Or just imagine if they kept cranking out transformers sequels...oh wait...You're not wrong. Hell, I remember posting after TMNT 2014 that I hope it makes a ton of money but I hope the sequel bombs just to show that theres still interest in a TMNT franchise, but not the way they went about it. So in a way I did get my wish. So I'm with you guys, I am. I'm just not going to the kids birthday whose friends didn't show up just to celebrate and laugh at him.

"Waaahhh, people aren't nice to a movie that sucks."Thanks for chiming in, kiddo.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-24-2016, 10:06 AM
He's seen all the TMNT movies at least once.

So he has now seen this one and his reaction is still the same? Because in the story he said he hadn't seen this one yet. I would assume that the first film is his favorite.

Etsyturtle2
06-24-2016, 10:41 AM
I pick apart the narrative once I notice something is wrong. Hence my grevicances with the movie. But hey I'm just a 1% downer what do I know?

Grevicances?

d_osborn
06-24-2016, 10:50 AM
I love Peter Laird. He is trying SO HARD to be diplomatic while still being honest.

But oh man, does he want to open up on these movies so bad. For almost exactly the same reasons a lot of us DO.

The Casey Jones buzz cut line is a dead giveaway. Bringing it up at all shows how much he downright dislikes this garbage.

Also I'd dance on this movie's grave if I could.
I guess that's why I respect the guy. He's being very diplomatic, even though he obviously doesn't like it. Being an asshole doesn't help the situation. Those creative choices come from up high, and it's apparent that the BO of TMNT2 will be doomsday for those choices.

It wasn't the first dogshit output from the property and more than likely won't be the last.

For Laird, it's really awesome the way he communicates with fans. Dude has him money, his bikes, his family, his pottery... he doesn't have to communicate and share his thoughts with the fans, but he does. That's pretty damn cool of him. I probably would have retreated to the mountains if I were him.

graphic_content
06-24-2016, 11:49 AM
for those who followed NICK's acquisition of TMNT (I didnt), help me understand something...

...was Peter the one who brokered the deal, and stood the gain the most financially?

CyberCubed
06-24-2016, 12:03 PM
for those who followed NICK's acquisition of TMNT (I didnt), help me understand something...

...was Peter the one who brokered the deal, and stood the gain the most financially?

TMNT was sold for $60 million, and Peter Laird retained most of that money, so yes.

Andrew NDB
06-24-2016, 12:03 PM
for those who followed NICK's acquisition of TMNT (I didnt), help me understand something...

...was Peter the one who brokered the deal, and stood the gain the most financially?

Viacom brokered the deal through Gary Richardson, Peter Laird's CEO of Mirage for 63 million. Peter Laird pocketed all of it, minus some obvious finder's fee or % for Richardson's involvement. He relinquished all interest and rights and any possible royalty money to come from future TMNT projects and publications. The only thing he retains post-sale deal is the right to publish 18 Mirage TMNT comics a year solely in the Mirage TMNT universe in perpetuity until death and it's non-transferable.

No one at Mirage beyond Peter (not even Kevin, who sold his half of the rights to Peter in 2000) saw any of that. Though I do recall him paying out the the then-existing Mirage staffers (Berger, Lawson, etc.) some kind of voluntary moderate severance-sort-of payment at the end. I remember hearing from Dan that it "wasn't a whole lot, but nice of him."

CyberCubed
06-24-2016, 12:06 PM
No one at Mirage beyond Peter (not even Kevin, who sold his half of the rights to Peter in 2000) saw any of that. Though I do recall him paying out the the then-existing Mirage staffers (Berger, Lawson, etc.) some kind of voluntary moderate severance-sort-of payment at the end.

I think I recall Jim Lawson and Dan Berger saying they received some money after the sale. I think PL gave them some out of goodwill or something.

TrickOrTreater
06-24-2016, 12:53 PM
Thanks for chiming in, kiddo.

Oooo the irony.

Also waaaaahhhh

I guess that's why I respect the guy. He's being very diplomatic, even though he obviously doesn't like it. Being an asshole doesn't help the situation. Those creative choices come from up high, and it's apparent that the BO of TMNT2 will be doomsday for those choices.

It wasn't the first dogshit output from the property and more than likely won't be the last.

For Laird, it's really awesome the way he communicates with fans. Dude has him money, his bikes, his family, his pottery... he doesn't have to communicate and share his thoughts with the fans, but he does. That's pretty damn cool of him. I probably would have retreated to the mountains if I were him.

I hope when Platinum Dunes gets sh*tcanned, and we get the new, better crop of TMNT movies we're due for soon, he REALLY opens up about this crap.

Just one big, long, scathing article about exactly how much Michael Bay and Platinum Dunes sucks sooooo much balls.

I bet it'll be really cathartic for him. And REALLY entertaining for Turtles fans.

I can feel it. I can feel that absolute distaste he must have for these LCD movies bubbling just below the surface.

neatoman
06-24-2016, 01:03 PM
its more popular then ever.

Not at the start of the Nickelodeon cartoon and certainly not now. There was an increase in interest for the franchise when the Nickelodeon cartoon began and when the 2014 movie premiered, these peaks turned out to be rather rather temporary however.

The ratings dropped and stagnated, the movie made less than expected and the sequel failed, there's also the toyline that seems to be falling behind but I have no statistics on that. So to say TMNT is "more popular than ever" is just delusional.

What's probably going to happen now is that Nickelodeon will just let the cartoon run it's course until it ends in 2017 or 2018, wait a little and reboot in an attempt at re-vitalising the franchise and see if another movie series has a chance, at which point the 2012 series becomes as "forgotten" as the 2003 series because people have a new TMNT cartoon to talk about.

Andrew NDB
06-24-2016, 01:25 PM
What's probably going to happen now is that Nickelodeon will just let the cartoon run it's course until it ends in 2017 or 2018, wait a little and reboot in an attempt at re-vitalising the franchise and see if another movie series has a chance, at which point the 2012 series becomes as "forgotten" as the 2003 series because people have a new TMNT cartoon to talk about.

I wonder what Bebop and Rocksteady's origin will be like in the 2017 show. Or when the Fred Wolf Turtles will crossover into it.

neatoman
06-24-2016, 01:58 PM
I wonder what Bebop and Rocksteady's origin will be like in the 2017 show. Or when the Fred Wolf Turtles will crossover into it.

I know your questions are jokes but I don't have joke answers to give, I guess I could answer the second question with "They will happen often until Nickelodeon learns they don't work" but I don't think that works. I'm dead serious with these answers.


Bebop and Rocksteady are probably going to be in the next show, they might redo the "street thugs" origin but it seems likely they might just make them oozed zoo animals or lab animals for the sake of simplicity. Or they might re-imagine them entirely but one of the previous possibilities seem more likely.
I think the Nickelodeon producers learned their lesson and figured out nobody cares enough for episodes like that to boost the ratings, it's probably seen as a failed strategy now.

TigerClaw
06-24-2016, 02:01 PM
I know your questions are jokes but I don't have joke answers to give, I guess I could answer the second question with "They will happen often until Nickelodeon learns they don't work" but I don't think that works. I'm dead serious with these answers.


Bebop and Rocksteady are probably going to be in the next show, they might redo the "street thugs" origin but it seems likely they might just make them oozed zoo animals or lab animals for the sake of simplicity. Or they might re-imagine them entirely but one of the previous possibilities seem more likely.
I think the Nickelodeon producers learned their lesson and figured out nobody cares enough for episodes like that to boost the ratings, it's probably seen as a failed strategy now.

They could just do what IDW did with the characters.

neatoman
06-24-2016, 02:11 PM
They could just do what IDW did with the characters.

If you're talking about their origin, what's the real difference between that and the cartoon? That Karai creates them? That DNA was used instead of kidnapped zoo animals? It's still pretty much the same, The Foot convinces two idiotic street thugs to be turned into monsters, it's the same.

If you're talking about their characterisation...
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/39001/4447871-bridw.jpg
... Maybe toned down a bit? I wouldn't be against it, it's just that I doubt it'll ever happen.

Ramboraph4life aka Matt
06-24-2016, 02:24 PM
Let's be honest folks...we will never get the 'Ninja Turtle film with badass fight choreography and 3-dimensional characterizations of the turtles'.

Yes, that is 100% fact.

Why? Because it'll forever be looked at as a kids' property. Even more so under the Nick platform (honestly, Peter Laird should not have sold it to them...he should have just waited and sold it to Disney or something like that).

This is coming from someone who would doesn't care for the current state of affairs, and would love to see the characters treated as more than 'jokes'.

But let's be real about this...it's not going to get into the 'Nolan's Batman' or 'Marvel Films' arena that folks (including me) want it to...

It sucks, but it's also the reality of the situation. The only way you'll get that will be in Fan Films (which a bunch of 'possible ones' pop up but never come to fruition, unless they are the Casey Jones ones...but dealing with just the Turtles? Even the fan films all fall through).

TigerClaw
06-24-2016, 02:24 PM
If you're talking about their origin, what's the real difference between that and the cartoon? That Karai creates them? That DNA was used instead of kidnapped zoo animals? It's still pretty much the same, The Foot convinces two idiotic street thugs to be turned into monsters, it's the same.

If you're talking about their characterisation...
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/39001/4447871-bridw.jpg
... Maybe toned down a bit? I wouldn't be against it, it's just that I doubt it'll ever happen.
I was talking about the characterizations, cause in the IDW comics, they are a lot more dangerous, unpredictable, and a force of nature, they tend to leave a path of destruction.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-24-2016, 02:44 PM
Let's be honest folks...we will never get the 'Ninja Turtle film with badass fight choreography and 3-dimensional characterizations of the turtles'.

Yes, that is 100% fact.

Why? Because it'll forever be looked at as a kids' property. Even more so under the Nick platform (honestly, Peter Laird should not have sold it to them...he should have just waited and sold it to Disney or something like that).

The sad, depressing word of truth.

TigerClaw
06-24-2016, 02:47 PM
Let's be honest folks...we will never get the 'Ninja Turtle film with badass fight choreography and 3-dimensional characterizations of the turtles'.

Yes, that is 100% fact.

Why? Because it'll forever be looked at as a kids' property. Even more so under the Nick platform (honestly, Peter Laird should not have sold it to them...he should have just waited and sold it to Disney or something like that).

This is coming from someone who would doesn't care for the current state of affairs, and would love to see the characters treated as more than 'jokes'.

But let's be real about this...it's not going to get into the 'Nolan's Batman' or 'Marvel Films' arena that folks (including me) want it to...

It sucks, but it's also the reality of the situation. The only way you'll get that will be in Fan Films (which a bunch of 'possible ones' pop up but never come to fruition, unless they are the Casey Jones ones...but dealing with just the Turtles? Even the fan films all fall through).
Sadly, if it was sold to Disney, it would still be treated as a kids property.

neatoman
06-24-2016, 02:58 PM
Sadly, if it was sold to Disney, it would still be treated as a kids property.

Yeah, but they wouldn't make the abomination of a movie we're talking about here. At worst a Disney TMNT production would be like the Inspector Gadget movie.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-24-2016, 02:59 PM
Sadly, if it was sold to Disney, it would still be treated as a kids property.

Disney doing an animated movie ala Big Hero 6, Zootopia, Wreck-It Ralph, or Frozen?

That's a best case scenario right there.

plastroncafe
06-24-2016, 03:05 PM
Disney does a damn good job making nuanced and well balanced kids' properties.

CyberCubed
06-24-2016, 03:08 PM
Disney does a damn good job making nuanced and well balanced kids' properties.

Most Disney cartoons are crap though. Ultimate Spiderman, the current Avengers, Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy...they're all awful.

Marvel cartoons are more often bad than good.

Technogeek29
06-24-2016, 03:18 PM
Grevicances?

Typed that in a hurry, more or less problems with the writing.

Xav
06-24-2016, 05:40 PM
Most Disney cartoons are crap though. Ultimate Spiderman, the current Avengers, Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy...they're all awful.

Marvel cartoons are more often bad than good.Well that's just your opinion. I find them more entertaining than the Nick TMNT cartoon,

Powder
06-24-2016, 06:33 PM
Well that's just your opinion. They are more entertaining than the Nick TMNT cartoon,

Well that's just your opinion. They are (insert yet another subjective comment here),

Electric
06-24-2016, 11:33 PM
While I definitely think his thoughts should respected, take em with a grain of salt.

1) He hasnt even seen the movie. Hes talking about what hes heard, not what he saw.

2) While he would have never included goofier characters (Bebop and Rocksteady), alot of people actually enjoyed them, even if they didnt like the movie.

3) The fact that he singled out Caseys lack of hair makes me think that he has an issue with it...this one im with him on.

Again, he did co-create it, his opinion definitely should be respected. But other than that, this isnt his anymore...

ZariusTwo
06-25-2016, 07:08 AM
Most Disney cartoons are crap though. Ultimate Spiderman, the current Avengers, Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy...they're all awful.

Marvel cartoons are more often bad than good.

Ultimate Spider-Man seems to be actually making an effort these days, and I've hated it for years so getting a compliment from me is saying something.

Commenter 42
06-25-2016, 09:09 AM
Most Disney cartoons are crap though. Ultimate Spiderman, the current Avengers, Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy...they're all awful.

Marvel cartoons are more often bad than good.

True.

But it doesn't have to be this way.

Editor's Note Comics
06-25-2016, 10:01 AM
I love Peter Laird. He is trying SO HARD to be diplomatic while still being honest.

But oh man, does he want to open up on these movies so bad. For almost exactly the same reasons a lot of us DO.

I'm sure part of the sale to Viacom involved him contractually not being allowed to say anything outright negative. This is as close as he can get. His name is still on the turtles, part of that contract had to have an agreement in it regarding what he publicly says. Since the sale happened, most of his responses have been "I haven't seen/read it" "It's fine" "It's not what I would have done" or "Don't bother asking me about it".

ProactiveMan
06-27-2016, 09:27 PM
Believe it or not, not everyone in the world is an embittered rageaholic, they’re just over represented on the internet. Maybe he doesn’t see any point in ranting and raving – it doesn’t help and it’s not good for you.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-27-2016, 09:40 PM
Not at the start of the Nickelodeon cartoon and certainly not now. There was an increase in interest for the franchise when the Nickelodeon cartoon began and when the 2014 movie premiered, these peaks turned out to be rather rather temporary however.

The ratings dropped and stagnated, the movie made less than expected and the sequel failed, there's also the toyline that seems to be falling behind but I have no statistics on that. So to say TMNT is "more popular than ever" is just delusional.

What's probably going to happen now is that Nickelodeon will just let the cartoon run it's course until it ends in 2017 or 2018, wait a little and reboot in an attempt at re-vitalising the franchise and see if another movie series has a chance, at which point the 2012 series becomes as "forgotten" as the 2003 series because people have a new TMNT cartoon to talk about.

I'm 34 and was "there" for the original "Turtle Phenomenon" and I can say that as great as the new show is and as much as people of all ages do seem to like it that it doesn't hold a CANDLE to the original craze from my generation. I will say though that back then you could watch the show everyday when you only had 3 channels and the market was just totally saturated with TMNT stuff. These days I see a lot of kids playing with TMNT stuff or carrying a backpack or whatever but back then it was like EVERYbody was playing with them, playing the games, carrying the lunchboxes, backpacks, shirts, hats, pins, blankets, curtains, sleeping bags, underwear, bath toys, and pretty much every other thing you can think of. It was just a great time to be a kid and a TMNT fan. I think now is ALSO a great time to be a fan and a kid but I just don't think the "craze" is at NEAR the height it reached "back in my day". I am now an old man. LOL!

Aaronardo
06-27-2016, 09:46 PM
Most Disney cartoons are crap though. Ultimate Spiderman, the current Avengers, Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy...they're all awful.

Marvel cartoons are more often bad than good.

Looking outside of Marvel, there's Gravity Falls, Star VS The Forces of Evil, Wander Over Yonder, and (objectively) Star Wars Rebels. Great shows all-around. Disney can make some pretty great stuff.

I will agree the Marvel shows are pretty awful, though (they clearly get better budgets with animation than other currently running shows that deserve them more, which only gives me more of a reason to bash).

AquaParade
06-28-2016, 01:45 AM
Always interesting to hear Pete's perspective on the tmnt. Thanks for sharing, Andrew.

ZariusTwo
06-28-2016, 06:03 AM
Looking outside of Marvel, there's Gravity Falls, Star VS The Forces of Evil, Wander Over Yonder, and (objectively) Star Wars Rebels. Great shows all-around. Disney can make some pretty great stuff.

Only two of those shows are ongoing. GF and Wander are finished.

T-U-R-T-L-E POWA!
06-28-2016, 08:25 AM
Only two of those shows are ongoing. GF and Wander are finished.

Phineas and Ferb was a great recent Disney show as well.

neatoman
06-28-2016, 09:01 AM
Why don't Disney just take direct control over Marvel's animation? From what I understand the cartoons we have now are directly made by Marvel with very little input from anyone else.

Metalwolf
06-28-2016, 02:19 PM
Let's be honest folks...we will never get the 'Ninja Turtle film with badass fight choreography and 3-dimensional characterizations of the turtles'.

Yes, that is 100% fact.

Why? Because it'll forever be looked at as a kids' property. Even more so under the Nick platform (honestly, Peter Laird should not have sold it to them...he should have just waited and sold it to Disney or something like that).

Well, blame the fans for it remaining a kids' property. They're the ones that justify the continual kiddification of the franchise. They're the ones that roll over and take it when the studios make the decisions to cut content that is too 'disturbing' for kids, instead of crying out en mass when such sanitation occurs. They're the ones that bleat when their kids can't watch something, instead of understanding that for a franchise to 'mature' not everything has to to be watchable by or needs to be for their kids.
They're the ones that always go on about 'TMNT is for kids' "Without the kids there would be no show' 'The toys are important' yadda yadda yadda. In remaining a kids property, the FANS ARE TO BLAME. We will not get a Nolan treatment because despite the fans sorta saying 'it would be nice,' in practice the fans still tell the studios it's a kid's property.

Are there surely a bunch of people wanting for TMNT to grow up and get back to it's comic roots? Yes. But what do the studios think people want? That 'TMNT is for kids!'

IndigoErth
06-28-2016, 03:54 PM
Yet plenty have lamented time and time again about it being suck there with the "kids thing" stigma. Who is complaining about kids not being able to watch something?

I could maybe understand for parents who want to share TMNT with their kids and are under the expectation that something made for families should be family friendly (such as these films, supposedly), but I doubt adult fans would complain much if there is an understanding up front that something is specifically geared toward older audiences and not their children.

I'm fully open to TMNT maintaining shows, toys, etc that are enjoyable for all ages (after all, it gets the interest going for the next generation of fans), but I wish for that to exist alongside other things that are geared toward adult fans, which I don't think should be so hard for the powers that be to grasp. If they can have this Half Shell line of toys, books, special(s) for the youngest set alongside the Nick version for older kids, teens, and adults, it shouldn't be so hard to make something that shifts it forward even a bit more and is for older teens and adults. Viacom is more than just Nick, TMNT doesn't (or shouldn't) have to be Nick label only. What I wouldn't give for a series (or movies) to portray 20 or 30-someting Turtles and their struggles that surround their lives individually and as a family at that age.

LeotheLateBloomer
06-28-2016, 04:22 PM
Exactly! DC's doing it with Batman, so Viacom can do it with TMNT.

TMNTInsighter
06-28-2016, 11:43 PM
I'm with him about not being happy about something failing. That should never be an outcome. That just makes you a dick if you are... even a competitor failing shouldn't be good news to one.

I disagree. A Michael Bay involved movie finally got what it deserved.

IndigoErth
06-29-2016, 12:02 AM
Well, what Bay personally deserved maybe. (When will he and his cronies figure out that they are not in fact fantastic at this.)

Wouldn't agree that a Turtles movie deserved it, and esp not the Turtles themselves, no matter what anyone has decided to do to them.

myconius
06-29-2016, 12:10 PM
From his TMNT Blog:

My question:

My question is: how do you feel about this? Are you happy that it is a failure (I know I am)? Are you ambivalent? It's the sum of all of my, and I suspect your fears... you know, "The Big Dumb Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang Movie™," as all of the marketing rests heavily on.[/I]

His response:

It is somewhat rare that I am "happy" that something is a failure, especially in the realm of movies. I know that a lot of dedicated people put in LOTS of earnest effort to make the movie they're working on the best possible movie that their efforts can make it… and all too often, such sincere efforts go to waste due to decisions made "at the top". I am loathe to wish failure on such folks and don't really think it's appropriate to be "happy" when such failure happens, except to some degree in those situations where such failure actually makes the world arguably a better place. -- PL[/B]

i just really have so much respect for Peter Laird.

he makes a lot of really good points!!!

Metalwolf
06-30-2016, 01:42 PM
Yet plenty have lamented time and time again about it being suck there with the "kids thing" stigma. Who is complaining about kids not being able to watch something?

I could maybe understand for parents who want to share TMNT with their kids and are under the expectation that something made for families should be family friendly (such as these films, supposedly), but I doubt adult fans would complain much if there is an understanding up front that something is specifically geared toward older audiences and not their children.

I'm fully open to TMNT maintaining shows, toys, etc that are enjoyable for all ages (after all, it gets the interest going for the next generation of fans), but I wish for that to exist alongside other things that are geared toward adult fans, which I don't think should be so hard for the powers that be to grasp. If they can have this Half Shell line of toys, books, special(s) for the youngest set alongside the Nick version for older kids, teens, and adults, it shouldn't be so hard to make something that shifts it forward even a bit more and is for older teens and adults. Viacom is more than just Nick, TMNT doesn't (or shouldn't) have to be Nick label only. What I wouldn't give for a series (or movies) to portray 20 or 30-someting Turtles and their struggles that surround their lives individually and as a family at that age.It's not that there is a complaint, it's that there is no real need for the parents to complain because other then a few comics, the main stuff is for children. I'm not adverse at all towards TMNT being for all ages. I just don't like how it is often exclusively (aside from a few comics) for children to be the intended audience. The fact that they aren't making this stuff (like TV shows and movies) intended for older people at all is the true complaint, because they could easily do it, but for some reason they just won't. Whenever a TV show or movie comes up, guess who the 'intended audience' is? Kids.

Exactly! DC's doing it with Batman, so Viacom can do it with TMNT.They can do it, but why aren't they doing it? Where is the Nolan treatment of the Turtles? Why did we get a movie that involved a bunch of characters farting and no real ninja fighting? Why is it all still kiddy stuff? People like to say they could do it, but the proof is in the pudding. When they actually do it, on screen, then can it truly be all ages like Batman. Until then it remains a kiddy franchise, with the comics being the unusual outliers.

Andrew NDB
06-30-2016, 02:09 PM
It's not that there is a complaint, it's that there is no real need for the parents to complain because other then a few comics, the main stuff is for children. I'm not adverse at all towards TMNT being for all ages. I just don't like how it is often exclusively (aside from a few comics) for children to be the intended audience. The fact that they aren't making this stuff (like TV shows and movies) intended for older people at all is the true complaint, because they could easily do it, but for some reason they just won't. Whenever a TV show or movie comes up, guess who the 'intended audience' is? Kids.

They can do it, but why aren't they doing it? Where is the Nolan treatment of the Turtles? Why did we get a movie that involved a bunch of characters farting and no real ninja fighting? Why is it all still kiddy stuff? People like to say they could do it, but the proof is in the pudding. When they actually do it, on screen, then can it truly be all ages like Batman. Until then it remains a kiddy franchise, with the comics being the unusual outliers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, because it's baffling to me. The 1990 TMNT movie remains the only attempt in a large media to appeal to anyone other than toddlers and, as such, it not only remains the most profitable (202 million worldwide made on a 13 million dollar budget, most of it domestic!) of all the films but remains the most respected and adored iteration on the big screen. That they keep doing their damndest to get as far away from that movie in terms of tone and target audience as possible and keep wondering why it never quite works... it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't compute.

IndigoErth
06-30-2016, 02:46 PM
It's not that there is a complaint, it's that there is no real need for the parents to complain because other then a few comics, the main stuff is for children. I'm not adverse at all towards TMNT being for all ages. I just don't like how it is often exclusively (aside from a few comics) for children to be the intended audience. The fact that they aren't making this stuff (like TV shows and movies) intended for older people at all is the true complaint, because they could easily do it, but for some reason they just won't. Whenever a TV show or movie comes up, guess who the 'intended audience' is? Kids.

They can do it, but why aren't they doing it? Where is the Nolan treatment of the Turtles? Why did we get a movie that involved a bunch of characters farting and no real ninja fighting? Why is it all still kiddy stuff? People like to say they could do it, but the proof is in the pudding. When they actually do it, on screen, then can it truly be all ages like Batman. Until then it remains a kiddy franchise, with the comics being the unusual outliers.
Yeah, agree. Partly imo it's also the fault of the film industry as well, if not more-so. Sure, it's a business, but the business side outweighs the art side too much anymore. More concern over making something for a profit vs. making something good and at least partly for the sake of the art side of film. I mean when it comes to profit... do you want the money from just those couple of adults who are fans or simply nostalgic, or do you want them to bring the kids and that way you get the money for the whole family? :ohwell:

Shame that those who'd make it simply because they want it to exist, without profit being the only central goal, is probably limited to being independent (not that many aren't good) with an independent film's budget. 1990 did fantastic, but in most cases I would not personally trust low budget not to look low budget. (Granted 1990s budget was prob high in comparison to many independents.)

d_osborn
06-30-2016, 04:03 PM
Where is the Nolan treatment of the Turtles?
It was being developed prior to the Nick buyout. :ohwell:

Andrew NDB
08-18-2016, 11:46 AM
It was being developed prior to the Nick buyout. :ohwell:

Kevin Eastman went on record saying that Fusco draft was "the best TMNT story" he'd ever read, and did compare it to "Batman Begins" in relation to TMNT.

But then again... that's Kevin Eastman.

Panda_Kahn_fan
08-18-2016, 12:23 PM
Laird's response is very polite and diplomatic, I applaud him.

And I feel the primary reason this movie did so mediocre wasn't the Fred Wolf-isms in it, but the Micheal Bay-isims; badly designed turtles, poorly constructed script, being a continuation of another mediocre movie, etc. Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang's mere existence in this film was not the cause of it's failure.

ranger_scout
08-18-2016, 02:55 PM
And I feel the primary reason this movie did so mediocre wasn't the Fred Wolf-isms in it, but the Micheal Bay-isims; badly designed turtles, poorly constructed script, being a continuation of another mediocre movie, etc. Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang's mere existence in this film was not the cause of it's failure.

Those are my thoughts as well. Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang are not to blame for the film's under-performance. People are just starting to get tired of Michael Bay films. Look at the fourth Transformers movie, which did not perform as well here in North America as its predecessors did. Also, the international crowd for TMNT: Out of the Shadows probably felt the same way because the numbers from foriegn totals are not as impressive as those of the 2014 film.

Krutch
08-18-2016, 03:00 PM
OOTS also had the obstacle of being a sequel to the last movie. Even the ones who knew it would be bad still wanted to give it a chance.

They weren't going to make that mistake twice.

ToTheNines
08-18-2016, 07:44 PM
http://www.luanawines.com/Assets/ProductImages/RR-17664.jpg

TheSkeletonMan939
08-21-2016, 06:16 PM
Speaking of failure...

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13679963/1/viacom-s-boardroom-battle-may-be-over-but-star-trek-could-add-to-paramount-woes.html

This is awesome.

ranger_scout
08-21-2016, 06:40 PM
Yet it still somehow managed to make the film division look good.

When Viacom issued the profit warning it said third-quarter results would be negatively impacted, specifically, by the underperformance of “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows.”

Yet, on the company’s call with analysts that followed results, Chief Financial Officer Wade Davis hailed “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles” as a saving grace.

Filmed entertainment revenue increased 30% in the quarter, he said, thanks to higher licensing fees and theatrical revenue.

Don’t miss: Viacom CEO upbeat on resolution to legal dispute

“Theatrical revenues increased to $91 million due to the release of ‘Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows’ in the quarter,” Davis said, according a FactSet transcript.


However, it's still obviously not all good news.

What he didn’t mention was Paramount Pictures did not have a film release during the same quarter last year. So while the revenue generated by “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles” gave Viacom a positive, the company’s filmed entertainment division had an adjusted operating loss of $26 million, after income of $48 million in the same quarter a year ago.

“The loss in the quarter reflects the underperformance of ‘Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows,” he said.

Viacom’s 10-Q filing explains further that the operating loss reflects the expenses incurred from advertising for underperforming films, such as “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.”

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-bombed-at-box-office-but-boosted-viacoms-revenue-2016-08-05

Commenter 42
08-22-2016, 01:24 AM
Speaking of failure...

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13679963/1/viacom-s-boardroom-battle-may-be-over-but-star-trek-could-add-to-paramount-woes.html

This is awesome.

I'm ecstatic.

neatoman
08-22-2016, 05:21 AM
"$26 million loss"

j45x9ranFH0

ranger_scout
08-22-2016, 08:42 AM
The film is opening in Japan this weekend, so that loss could get smaller if does well in that territory. There's also the home video release next month, but I doubt that will really make much of a difference.

Donnie
08-22-2016, 08:51 AM
I love PL. He always says it as it is. Casey Jones was one of the worst parts of the movie. The buzzcut definitely didn't help.

Andrew NDB
08-22-2016, 12:00 PM
Speaking of failure...

https://www.thestreet.com/story/13679963/1/viacom-s-boardroom-battle-may-be-over-but-star-trek-could-add-to-paramount-woes.html

This is awesome.

"Ben Hur" just reeked of flop as soon as I saw the first trailer.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-22-2016, 12:19 PM
"Ben Hur" just reeked of flop as soon as I saw the first trailer.

I'm thinking there's no such thing as a successful remake. Not these days.

ranger_scout
08-22-2016, 12:25 PM
I'm thinking there's no such thing as a successful remake. Not these days.

Disney has been striking gold with live-action remakes or re-imaginings like Maleficent, Cinderella and The Jungle Book. Beauty and the Beast is extremely likely to join that list as well.

Andrew NDB
08-22-2016, 12:26 PM
I'm thinking there's no such thing as a successful remake. Not these days.

Ben Hur might have worked with names in it bigger than "The bad guy from the Fantastic Four flop."

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-22-2016, 12:34 PM
Disney has been striking gold with live-action remakes or re-imaginings like Maleficent, Cinderella and The Jungle Book. Beauty and the Beast is extremely likely to join that list as well.

Fair point. Previous statement amended as follows:

I'm thinking there's no such thing as a successful remake outside of Disney. Not these days. :tlol:

Ben Hur might have worked with names in it bigger than "The bad guy from the Fantastic Four flop."

Owch. Which poor benighted actor was that? Toby somebody?

TrickOrTreater
08-22-2016, 10:31 PM
Fair point. Previous statement amended as follows:

I'm thinking there's no such thing as a successful remake outside of Disney. Not these days. :tlol:



Owch. Which poor benighted actor was that? Toby somebody?

Toby Kebbel, who should REALLY fire his agent.

Because he is a good actor. He was Koba in Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

He is just really lousy at picking movies to be in.

Andrew NDB
08-22-2016, 10:52 PM
Toby Kebbel, who should REALLY fire his agent.

Because he is a good actor. He was Koba in Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

He is just really lousy at picking movies to be in.

He was awesome in RockNRolla.

snake
08-22-2016, 10:53 PM
The Ben Hur remake is flopping as well. Hopefully this year is teaching studios that we don't want remakes of things that don't need remakes.

Jephael
08-23-2016, 05:21 PM
Hopefully this year is teaching studios that we don't want remakes of things that don't need remakes.

Only time will tell if they get the hint.

Andrew NDB
08-23-2016, 05:57 PM
Remakes are never going to stop, but this might effect the way they go about remakes, or the sort of things they remake.

Chris
08-24-2016, 05:45 PM
Disney has been striking gold with live-action remakes or re-imaginings like Maleficent, Cinderella and The Jungle Book. Beauty and the Beast is extremely likely to join that list as well.

Loved The Jungle Book but felt Maleficent was a huge let down. Still can't believe they turned one of their greatest villains into a misunderstood heroine. Definitely heading in the right direction now though, Beauty and the Beast looks great.

Shark_Blade
08-25-2016, 05:32 AM
Yeah Maleficent was awful in everything (story, characters, CGI, music, script etc) except Angelina Jolie herself.

ranger_scout
08-27-2016, 10:47 PM
It's strange how in 2014 both Maleficent (a film written by Linda Woolverton) and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were some of the biggest success stories of that summer. Two years later, one of Woolverton's films Alice Through the Looking Glass and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows were two of the biggest losers at the box-office this summer. I did enjoy the latter much more than the former though.