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Commenter 42
07-27-2016, 09:15 PM
Just curious. Lots of people claim to love the idea of the Turtles becoming human. Lot's of folks also like to think literally.

So, from that vantage point, if the brothers were turned Human, wouldn't they just be, well, homeless kids? I don't imagine it would be anything like Eastman's recent short. They'd stink, and have to steal food. They couldn't get real jobs without any education, or even sin numbers. So what do they do?

I don't imagine being trained martial arts assassins would be much of an asset.
Assaults on anyone, as a human, would be hard to justify, especially if you're a vagrant with no fixed address.

What do you think. If they were just 4 kids who lived in the sewers would you watch that cartoon?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-27-2016, 09:20 PM
Just curious. Lots of people claim to love the idea of the Turtles becoming human. Lot's of folks also like to think literally.

So, from that vantage point, if the brothers were turned Human, wouldn't they just be, well, homeless kids? I don't imagine it would be anything like Eastman's recent short. They'd stink, and have to steal food. They couldn't get real jobs without any education, or even sin numbers. So what do they do?

I don't imagine being trained martial arts assassins would be much of an asset.
Assaults on anyone, as a human, would be hard to justify, especially if you're a vagrant with no fixed address.

What do you think. If they were just 4 kids who lived in the sewers would you watch that cartoon?

It's a huge departure, but I won't lie... that sounds extremely interesting.

EDIT: If it kept the grim and grit of Mirage and wasn't at all kid-friendly. Caveat.

Commenter 42
07-27-2016, 09:53 PM
I'm just saying, that most days I pass kids on the street, homeless for whatever reason, and pay little attention. Years ago, I was a hairs breadth away from living that life. There's very little separating me from them, then or now. I have sympathy, but still, I walk on by; yet here I am, on some obscure message board, yammering on about 4 fictitious kids, in almost the same scenario. It's odd, right? Would I buy action figures of these kids? Would I spend a season watching their adventures? 10 seasons?

My head cannon has always been that they're turtles first - animals, who have a unique perspective on life because of the freedom to live outside the system - no job, no dependents, but filled with the angst and passion of youth, too young to be cynical, but also too young to be responsible. Child soldiers on the frige of society, trying to come to grips with the meaning of it all.

But if we take the view that so many people have, they're just "green people"... well, let's shed the green.

They're just some homeless kids that live in poverty, and fight with a rival gang, presumably made upon of other displaced folks. If we add in the sci-fi elements, perhaps they're also huffing paint, or tripping balls to see Triceratons...

I'm not the biggest fan of the deconstructionist takes on heroes - see Snyder and his dim view of Big Blue; but to all the fans who feel that the turtles should want to be human... doesn't that remove the essence of wht makes them different, or special, or interesting?

Are we, really just fans of some kids who might need food stamps? Are we spending hundreds of dollars on plastic that could maybe feed some folks?

just ... this is where my head went today...

MsMarvelDuckie
07-27-2016, 10:10 PM
Not neccessarily. I have my on-going fic wherein Mikey wants exactly that, but it's in the context that he feels trapped by their lifestyle and curcumstances, not free. He goes so far as to bitterly speak about living in a literal hole in the ground where there aren't even any windows to see the sun, that hiding in the dark away from the world is against their nature as sun-loving cold-blooded reptiles who are prone to basking (calling it ironic that they live in the dark cold sewers) and wanting to experience the simple things that everyone else takes for granted. Like going to school or playing sports in the park, etc. And love and friendship as an equal, of course.

As humans, they would have opportunities to change their own situation- even if it's by taking menial work and living in low-rent housing. Donnie has the hacking skills to fake them some ID and other documents, so they aren't entirely without options in that department. And their level of education is comparable to most human teens- they could just say they were home-schooled.

Andrew NDB
07-27-2016, 10:19 PM
If I would do that (and I wouldn't), I'd go all full biological horror, ala David Cronenberg. Not an instant mutation... just, you know... their shell slowly sloughing off, their fingers mushing into 4 boned fingers, little by little. In the midst of all of this -- and it would be painful, and horrifying -- they would question if it's what they really wanted until then yeah, end up in a situation where they're 4 guys that smell like sh*t who have never been in school and have no identities in the eyes of the government trying to make it. It would end with them finding out it was actually a whole hell of a lot easier as outcasts in the sewer, and sort of lamenting that.

IndigoErth
07-27-2016, 10:20 PM
No home, no education, no legal documents or identity, no proof of citizenship, etc, making it awfully hard to get on your feet. At best they could use April's place as an address. But beyond that, they'd already need the right allies who'd have the ability to help them get started. They'd be like a bunch of excommunicated Amish kids trying to get their footing in the rest of the world, minus already being used to technology.

The human stuff is sort of boring to me though. We're a dime penny a dozen, why remove part of what makes them special.

I know some fans may get into that simply because it may feel more "okay" to daydream or write about cuddling up with one of them, but christ, it's just fiction... So many are into putting them with each other (*cringe*) but snuggle with a human friend, well dear god no. :trolleye: So speciesist, gotta be human to be acceptable for snuggles. (I'll leave it at that and not touch where some tend to try to take it and freak out on the idea... lol) Granted a human TMNT would be physically squishier and more comfortable to hug, but sacrifices to comfort might be more worth it to keep them as them.


What do you think. If they were just 4 kids who lived in the sewers would you watch that cartoon?
Some other non-TMNT series that had interesting reasons to back up all the 'whys' of their living arrangements might be okay, at least at first. (Just turn TMNT human and continue that way, no thanks.) It could be like a spin-off series that is set at the beginnings of the sewer mutant community in Futurama. (Sewer mutants... were the writers inspired by TMNT? lol)



Now, personally I do see them as people first. And sure, "just green people" (even partly human depending on version), but special people. People whose differences keep them isolated, feeling rejected, and trying to survive the best they can while finding where they can fit into the world and in what way they can play a part in and be an asset to the world and community they quietly live as a part of.

I don't agree with the wanting to be human thing. PD Leo in the last film pretty much aligned with my view of finding acceptance within; gain greater freedom and slowly building acceptance and allies for who they are, rather than conforming to what stupid humans are only commonly willing to accept. I'd prefer that they manage to find (very slowly and with great caution) that some people who can keep their crap together and give them a chance may be very willing to come to accept them. And that the world isn't quite 100% as hateful and rejecting as they may have been raised by Splinter to believe. (Though ever running around like it's Fast Forward is unlikely.)

Are we spending hundreds of dollars on plastic that could maybe feed some folks?
Maybe... :ohwell: But we can always buy and donate figures to toy drives for the homeless kids that may love TMNT too and in some ways find something relatable (and perhaps encouraging) in it.

Utrommaniac
07-27-2016, 10:52 PM
Well...if we go into a slow, gradual mutation into humanity...this would probably be the best possible role the Utroms would have in their lives besides their creation in the first place. It would certainly make them more useful than they've typically been. Depending on if you're going with Mirage or 23K, they'd be the gods of putting together legal documents in order to get by in the human world, and they'd understand what it's like to live in a society that isn't suited to them. If they can create a gigantic research facility and corporation that has a decent amount of respect and attention, I'm sure they can get lodging for the humanized turtles.

The Mirage Utroms seemed to have a little bit of remorse for their mutation, so of course those ones would want to make amends however they could (at least in Tales volume 2).

But even if they did manage to get a home and legal identities, it would probably lead to massive shocks in time. It's not the life they're used to, and they probably would come to a period where they'd absolutely hate it.

But a Futurama sewer mutant spinoff? Heck yes!!!

Powder
07-27-2016, 11:16 PM
If I would do that (and I wouldn't), I'd go all full biological horror, ala David Cronenberg. Not an instant mutation... just, you know... their shell slowly sloughing off, their fingers mushing into 4 boned fingers, little by little. In the midst of all of this -- and it would be painful, and horrifying -- they would question if it's what they really wanted until then yeah, end up in a situation where they're 4 guys that smell like sh*t who have never been in school and have no identities in the eyes of the government trying to make it. It would end with them finding out it was actually a whole hell of a lot easier as outcasts in the sewer, and sort of lamenting that.

:tthumbsu:

Commenter 42
07-27-2016, 11:25 PM
Interesting. Very interesting...

IndigoErth
07-27-2016, 11:38 PM
It's not the life they're used to, and they probably would come to a period where they'd absolutely hate it.


Maybe it'll sound something like this:
"You know, guys, sometimes I really miss sitting up on some rooftop at 2am and watching over the city. But now? Now I have to be in bed by 9pm so I can get up by 6am for my job at Walmart. Just like I did yesterday, the day before that, all last week...last month...last year... *sigh* Living the dream! ... Sure, we eat better, but damn is it repetitive and dull. My life is hardly my own anymore. I've gone from mutant crime fighter to basically a gnat mentally bashing myself against Walmart's front door, desperate to escape, but will likely die in this place. No wonder people are the way they are."

MsMarvelDuckie
07-28-2016, 04:00 AM
We've already seen it happen once before, and then again with a partial change albeit temporary. Also I'm fairly sure they could get work as security guards, and as Leo656 has shwon us they could even find work as personal trainers without proper documents. And not to split hairs here but this country is already full ofpeople who get by perfectly well without the legal standing most of us have- they are called illegal immigrants. Some live quite well even. Thry coyld easily pass themselves off as such, with the advantage of alreeady knowing the language.

Is it what most fans want? Maybe not but I din't think the adjustment and struggle would be any less interesting than any of their other syories- when Mikey did it, he found out it was much harder than he thought. But he did at least learn what it wad like. And he has proven that he at least could di pizza delivery, so theres that too.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 08:14 AM
Reading your original post, I missed that the scenario was if the Turtles were turned human. That's idiotic.

But if you take the basic concept of four orphaned kids raised by a ninja assassin away from society... living homeless and brutal, and tell an original story. THAT'S an interesting concept.

Did not mean to imply I'm okay with FredWolf-type "turning human" stories. :tlol:

Zak The Neutrino
07-28-2016, 09:09 AM
Interesting topic. I don't think I would be interested in seeing this.

It also brings up something that always bothered me in several of the incarnations. Where do they get money? In the movies and FW cartoon we see them buying pizza with money. Where does it come from? They are essentially homeless and without jobs.

IndigoErth
07-28-2016, 10:44 AM
Yup. My only assumption has long been that they are just that good at spotting loose change.

We just think they're always keeping a look out for bad guys... no, part of that careful observation is in fact also looking for lost quarters. :trazz: Any paper money is winning the lottery.

Although realistically they should probably be eating far less than the amount FW suggests they'd be stuffing in their faces and probable skipping some meals here and there. At least until they have friends who might take pity on them.

PD Turtles should probably be starving to death if they could never get enough food to fuel their massive size and energy burn. Donnie isn't the thinnest because he's "the nerd," he's thin because he'd holed up in his lab and always last getting to the table. lol

Utrommaniac
07-28-2016, 11:01 AM
Yet one more thing IDW brought to the table. They had to dumpster dive for a while, until they were found by someone who just accepted that there were turtles digging around in trash and started helping them out free of charge.

Woody is a gem.

Zak The Neutrino
07-28-2016, 11:05 AM
Yet one more thing IDW brought to the table. They had to dumpster dive for a while, until they were found by someone who just accepted that there were turtles digging around in trash and started helping them out free of charge.

Woody is a gem.

Yeah IDW did a good job of figuring that story hole out.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 11:19 AM
Yet one more thing IDW brought to the table. They had to dumpster dive for a while, until they were found by someone who just accepted that there were turtles digging around in trash and started helping them out free of charge.

Woody is a gem.

Yeah IDW did a good job of figuring that story hole out.

Agreed. Not much in the grand scheme of things, but Woody is still a very important piece of the TMNT puzzle.

Utrommaniac
07-28-2016, 11:27 AM
Plus, he's technically the first human they meet, rather than April or Casey. And he just lets them do their own business from and only doesn't get involved. Save for some marginal situations, like when Mike was talking to him while Don was in his coma.

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 03:28 PM
Reading your original post, I missed that the scenario was if the Turtles were turned human. That's idiotic.

But if you take the basic concept of four orphaned kids raised by a ninja assassin away from society... living homeless and brutal, and tell an original story. THAT'S an interesting concept.

Did not mean to imply I'm okay with FredWolf-type "turning human" stories. :tlol:

No, you had it right the first time. My point was, if you were to remove the Mutant Turtle from TMNT, but kept all the other elements as they are, through a literal lense: 1) would people still be fans, and 2) Aren't they essentially street kids, (trained to kill) the sort of street kids we ignore in our streets all the time, 3) how important was the specific animalia to their nature? did it ever matter? shouldn't it? 4) Would we have toys on our shelf of street kids, and walk by real street kids? ... Maybe you see where I'm going with this.

Most people seem to ignore the mutant turtle aspect altogether, aside from the ha-ha's about half shells, or skin color. Their animal component seems to be of little consequence. The same might be said of almost all mutants in the series. To me, it was part of what made them interesting, but I'm realizing it's more of a foot note than anything else, something I brought to the reading that wasn't ever really there.

It was more of a what if - as in, isn't it odd that we celebrate this over here, but shun it over there, sort of like how A guy drives a truck through a crowd in Niece, which is horrible, but then we see Batman/Superman straight up murdering folks, and we're cheering. It's that weird thing about context and justification. We celebrate vigilanteism in our fictions, but condemn it in real life.

That was all.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 03:33 PM
No, you had it right the first time. My point was, if you were to remove the Mutant Turtle from TMNT, but kept all the other elements as they are, through a literal lense: 1) would people still be fans, and 2) Aren't they essentially street kids, (trained to kill) the sort of street kids we ignore in our streets all the time, 3) how important was the specific animalia to their nature? did it ever matter? shouldn't it? 4) Would we have toys on our shelf of street kids, and walk by real street kids? ... Maybe you se where I'm going with this.

Most people seem to ignore the mutant turtle aspect altogether, aside from the ha-ha's about half shells, or skin color. Their animal component seems to be of little consequence. The same might be said of almost all mutants in the series. To me, it was part of what made them interesting, but I'm realizing it's more of a foot note than anything else, something I brought to the reading that wasn't ever really there.

It was more of a what if - as in, isn't it odd that we celebrate this over here, but shun it over there, sort of like how A guy drives a truck through a crowd in Niece, which is horrible, but then we see Batman/Superman straight up murdering folks, and we're cheering. It's that weird thing about context and justification. We celebrate vigilanteism in our fictions, but condemn it in real life.

That was all.

Well, if they weren't mutant turtles but were instead street kids, parents and other authorities would have shut it down faster than you can say "CPS." It'd be a much less kid-friendly property... honestly, you couldn't tell that story without an adult audience.

It'd be a cool story.

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 03:39 PM
Well, if they weren't mutant turtles but were instead street kids, parents and other authorities would have shut it down faster than you can say "CPS." It'd be a much less kid-friendly property... honestly, you couldn't tell that story without an adult audience.

It'd be a cool story.

lol, that's it? Ok.

Nobody's shut down the homeless kids a block from me, whom I've seem squee-gee/panhandle for the last 5 years plus.

But yeah, if we could make a buck on that, we should do it I suppose. Would make a cool story for those with extra change to buy and read said story.

...

You getting it yet?

Andrew NDB
07-28-2016, 03:45 PM
Well, if they weren't mutant turtles but were instead street kids, parents and other authorities would have shut it down faster than you can say "CPS." It'd be a much less kid-friendly property... honestly, you couldn't tell that story without an adult audience.

It'd be a cool story.

That'd be an interesting take on TMNT, actually. They could even call themselves "The Turtles." I mean, I'd buy that as some kind of Elseworlds mini-series or short film.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 04:03 PM
lol, that's it? Ok.

Nobody's shut down the homeless kids a block from me, whom I've seem squee-gee/panhandle for the last 5 years plus.

But yeah, if we could make a buck on that, we should do it I suppose. Would make a cool story for those with extra change to buy and read said story.

...

You getting it yet?

Yes, I get that you're wanting to talk the dichotomy between the fantasy of teenage ninjas who just happen to be turtles versus the reality of teenagers living on the street and how society reacts (or doesn't react) to them.

But you made the subject about as how that particularly pertains to the TMNT, a fictional property. And those are the thoughts that have occurred to me and that I decided to publicly post.

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 04:04 PM
Yes, I get that you're wanting to talk the dichotomy between the fantasy of teenage ninjas who just happen to be turtles versus the reality of teenagers living on the street and how society reacts (or doesn't react) to them.

But you made the subject about as how that particularly pertains to the TMNT, a fictional property. And those are the thoughts that have occurred to me and that I decided to publicly post.

Ok, you win. I laughed.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 04:06 PM
Ok, you win. I laughed.

In my area, all the homeless are adults. So I have no personal experience with homeless teenagers.

There, subject changed. I have returned the volley, the ball is over the net.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
07-28-2016, 04:09 PM
Isn't this still for the TMNT threads?

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 04:30 PM
In my area, all the homeless are adults. So I have no personal experience with homeless teenagers.

There, subject changed. I have returned the volley, the ball is over the net.

You must live in a smaller city then. Fair enough. Here, they're on most street corners, so it's an everyday thing.

In India it's worse, according to Vice.

Still, I find the divide between reality and fantasy interesting. Maybe THAT's how you get people to give a ****...you make them the entertainment?

Worked for the Kardashians.

Guess I'm all alone going down this rabbit hole. Lol.

IndigoErth
07-28-2016, 04:34 PM
Would make a cool story for those with extra change to buy and read said story.
That'd be an interesting take on TMNT, actually. They could even call themselves "The Turtles." I mean, I'd buy that as some kind of Elseworlds mini-series or short film.
Now, if someone took such an idea and turned it into a book or other project that generated some profits that would in turn be used for a fund to help said 'street kids'...

thundermaster612
07-28-2016, 04:35 PM
I once read a thing that somebody made about the turtles becoming human and living like that. It was actually pretty good and not like a ****** fanfic. It's realistic in TMNT terms as well. It's called Zapped

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 05:30 PM
Now, if someone took such an idea and turned it into a book or other project that generated some profits that would in turn be used for a fund to help said 'street kids'...

You won the thread.

Thanks.

Zak The Neutrino
07-28-2016, 05:44 PM
You must live in a smaller city then. Fair enough. Here, they're on most street corners, so it's an everyday thing.

In India it's worse, according to Vice.

Still, I find the divide between reality and fantasy interesting. Maybe THAT's how you get people to give a ****...you make them the entertainment?

Worked for the Kardashians.

Guess I'm all alone going down this rabbit hole. Lol.

I've never seen a homeless teenager up by me either. However for the longest time I rarely saw many homeless people period. I always thought maybe it was too cold up here for them. However after the last 7 years it's gotten a lot worse. Hmm I wonder what correlates with the last 7 years?

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 06:12 PM
I've never seen a homeless teenager up by me either. However for the longest time I rarely saw many homeless people period. I always thought maybe it was too cold up here for them.

I'll take some pictures for you. It's real, in big cities.

However after the last 7 years it's gotten a lot worse. Hmm I wonder what correlates with the last 7 years?

Really? Maybe you missed the part where Bush & Chenney destroyed the economy. The part where Clinton set everything in motion. The Part where Greenspan openly admitted it was all part of the plan.

How about where the Banksters started taking advantage under REAGAN, the savings and loan scandal, destroying the middle class, and with his racist wife, jailed the highest number of black youth, ever.

But it goes even further back than that... but sure, let's blame only Obama. That was all him.

Economics kid. Read a ****ing book. Black folks didn't create this mess.

Homelessness has zero to do with Obama.

Zak The Neutrino
07-28-2016, 06:20 PM
I'll take some pictures for you. It's real, in big cities.



Really? Maybe you missed the part where Bush & Chenney destroyed the economy. The part where Clinton set everything in motion. The Part where Greenspan openly admitted it was all part of the plan.

How about where the Banksters started taking advantage under REAGAN, the savings and loan scandal, destroying the middle class, and with his racist wife, jailed the highest number of black youth, ever.

But it goes even further back than that... but sure, let's blame only Obama. That was all him.

Economics kid. Read a ****ing book. Black folks didn't create this mess.

Homelessness has zero to do with Obama.

It was a rib man. Although I think someone else could have done better at recovery than he has done.

A lot of my family is in the mortgage/banking industry I know full well what Clinton sent in motion.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-28-2016, 06:35 PM
You must live in a smaller city then. Fair enough. Here, they're on most street corners, so it's an everyday thing.

In India it's worse, according to Vice.

Still, I find the divide between reality and fantasy interesting. Maybe THAT's how you get people to give a ****...you make them the entertainment?

Worked for the Kardashians.

Guess I'm all alone going down this rabbit hole. Lol.

We have a quite a number of homeless. The youngest they are is 18-21, though. No kids.

It's actually a thing that other major cities in my state will bus their homeless to our city free of charge, just to be rid of them. It's our problem that nobody ever talks about. :trazz:

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not laughing at homelessness. I'm laughing at our other major cities who just pass the buck. And we do nothing.

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 06:36 PM
It was a rib man. Although I think someone else could have done better at recovery than he has done.

A lot of my family is in the mortgage/banking industry I know full well what Clinton sent in motion.

You can see how that could be misconstrued...right?

We have a quite a number of homeless. The youngest they are is 18-21, though. No kids.

It's actually a thing that other major cities in my state will bus their homeless to our city free of charge, just to be rid of them. It's our problem that nobody ever talks about. :trazz:

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not laughing at homelessness. I'm laughing at our other major cities who just pass the buck. And we do nothing.

Not sure you could put an absolute on the ages...maybe 'by law" or something... but I get your point.
I do wonder if we could make homeless action figures...

Then again, those homeless action figures might make money that could be given to our homeless, or soup kitchens, shelters, etc...
but then, what about the poor in the sweatshops making the plastic toys? Do we make Sweatshop Suzie? iphone Andy? Who buys those toys?

Maybe if they have kung-foo grip...or glow in the dark...
perhaps they could come with their own roof-nets...

Zak The Neutrino
07-28-2016, 06:46 PM
You can see how that could be misconstrued...right?



Not sure you could put an absolute on the ages...maybe 'by law" or something... but I get your point.
I do wonder if we could make homeless action figures...

Then again, those homeless action figures might make money that could be given to our homeless, or soup kitchens, shelters, etc...
but then, what about the poor in the sweatshops making the plastic toys? Do we make Sweatshop Suzie? iphone Andy? Who buys those toys?

Maybe if they have kung-foo grip...or glow in the dark...
perhaps they could come with their own roof-nets...

Yeah sometimes things don't come through as well in text. :D

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 06:49 PM
Yeah sometimes things don't come through as well in text. :D

Obama has his faults -some big ones... But he keeps up the fascade better than most.

I'm willing to look the other way for him more than most. I'm admittedly biased.

IndigoErth
07-28-2016, 06:52 PM
Do we make Sweatshop Suzie? iphone Andy?
My first thought...those sound like Garbage Pail Kids card names. Street Kids - collect cards, help charity. (Likewise gimmicky and appealing to collect, but some way that GPK doesn't feel like it's toes are being stepped on.)

MsMarvelDuckie
07-28-2016, 08:26 PM
You know that might actually be a good way to make the Garbage Pail Kids a little bit relevant and acceptable. They could spotlight some of society's issues in a satirical way to bring attention to tbem and raise awareness/funding.

Commenter 42
07-28-2016, 09:12 PM
Nah, the revamped GPK would be more like Social Justice Cleric Lee, and Outraged Blogger Gus.

Some sort of cis in there too, I'm sure.

ToTheNines
07-29-2016, 03:27 AM
Twisted Cis-ter.

Commenter 42
07-29-2016, 05:55 AM
Twisted Cis-ter.

Bingo. Well done.