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View Full Version : Why do you all want the same movie over and over?


turtlefanforever
08-26-2016, 12:41 PM
It seems all anyone wants when it comes to a new TMNT movie is Shredder and the Origin story. Why do you all want the same thing over and over again? Haven't we learned anything from spider-man and being force fed the green goblin?

Andrew NDB
08-26-2016, 12:45 PM
It seems all anyone wants when it comes to a new TMNT movie is Shredder and the Origin story.

A properly done one, sure. And the only complete Shredder and origin story we've ever gotten was 26 years ago.

Why do you all want the same thing over and over again? Haven't we learned anything from spider-man and being force fed the green goblin?

Sure, to not go out and support sh*tty Spider-Man movies. Seems to have worked out well in that regard.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 12:45 PM
Well, for one thing, there hasn't been a FAITHFUL and/or GOOD TMNT origin movie done yet.

We can do better than the 1990 movie. And we can do a HELL of a lot better than Platinum Dunes' trash.

Andrew NDB
08-26-2016, 12:54 PM
Wait a minute... this all may be a lot simpler than it appears.

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/8044/DWgzNq.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iJeme8oEW24/U6uNMn5xYCI/AAAAAAAAMgo/c6i6pQz9iqM/s1600/Clint+Eastwood+Eli+Wallach+Lee+Van+Cleef+Anger+The +Good,+the+bad+and+the+Ugly+Eyes+Wide+Fear+Nonverb al+Communication+Expert+Body+Language+Expert+Speak er+Keynote+Consultant+Las+Vegas+Los+Angeles+Orland o+New+York+City.png

snake
08-26-2016, 12:58 PM
The 1990 film is absolutely perfect. Just go about updating that with some changes here and there and you have a great movie. The sequels can move into the weirder and different stuff once the first movie is out of the way

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:01 PM
The 1990 film is absolutely perfect. Just go about updating that with some changes here and there and you have a great movie. The sequels can move into the weirder and different stuff once the first movie is out of the way

No, it's not. It's good but it's not perfect.

For one thing, the visual effects. Those puppet baby turtles look terrible.

For another thing, Darth Shredder. Stealing TVs. With a band of angsty teenagers. #notmyfootclan

plastroncafe
08-26-2016, 01:05 PM
I'm with Cylon on the 1990 film not being 100% perfect.
It was damn close, for certain, and has only the barest hints of Okamon contamination.

I was never overly fond of the characterization of Donatello in that movie, though I'm more than happy to overlook it for The. Best. Non-Mirage Michelangelo ever.

I kind of wish we'd seen Oroku Saki as well as Shredder.

snake
08-26-2016, 01:07 PM
No, it's not. It's good but it's not perfect.

For one thing, the visual effects. Those puppet baby turtles look terrible.

For another thing, Darth Shredder. Stealing TVs. With a band of angsty teenagers. #notmyfootclan

That's what I meant by updating it for today. That stuff is a little goofy but can easily be fixed. 1990 is still my favorite though

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:15 PM
I'm with Cylon on the 1990 film not being 100% perfect.
It was damn close, for certain, and has only the barest hints of Okamon contamination.

I was never overly fond of the characterization of Donatello in that movie, though I'm more than happy to overlook it for The. Best. Non-Mirage Michelangelo ever.

I kind of wish we'd seen Oroku Saki as well as Shredder.

I personally feel that Leo and Don were both pretty heavily sidelined in that movie. But the best version of Casey Jones ever.

That's what I meant by updating it for today. That stuff is a little goofy but can easily be fixed. 1990 is still my favorite though

Yeah, take the basic plot, get rid of Danny and Charles, more development for Shredder and Splinter, equal development for all four Turtles... it'd be perfect.

plastroncafe
08-26-2016, 01:22 PM
I personally feel that Leo and Don were both pretty heavily sidelined in that movie. But the best version of Casey Jones ever.


Yeah....I think Leo's characterization suffered when his beatdown at the hands of the Shredder was dealt to Raph instead.

And Yes. Yes! One thousand times Yes on Casey.
I quite liked April too!
(I was in a play with a gent who knows Judith Hoag well, and when I went on about TMNT during rehearsal he said something along the lines of, "Oh I'll be sure to tell Judy!")

snake
08-26-2016, 01:23 PM
I personally feel that Leo and Don were both pretty heavily sidelined in that movie. But the best version of Casey Jones ever.



Yeah, take the basic plot, get rid of Danny and Charles, more development for Shredder and Splinter, equal development for all four Turtles... it'd be perfect.

It's hard to give equal developement for all four turtles in just one movie, on top of establishing everything else. I would be fine with Raph getting most of it in movie 1 (like in 1990), Leo/Donnie in the sequel, and finally Mikey in 3.

snake
08-26-2016, 01:25 PM
Yeah....I think Leo's characterization suffered when his beatdown at the hands of the Shredder was dealt to Raph instead.

And Yes. Yes! One thousand times Yes on Casey.
I quite liked April too!
(I was in a play with a gent who knows Judith Hoag well, and when I went on about TMNT during rehearsal he said something along the lines of, "Oh I'll be sure to tell Judy!")

While I'd say IDW Casey is the best because of what they did with him and his father, 90s Casey is a close second. 90s April is pretty great and might be my favorite next to IDW.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:25 PM
Yeah....I think Leo's characterization suffered when his beatdown at the hands of the Shredder was dealt to Raph instead.

And Yes. Yes! One thousand times Yes on Casey.
I quite liked April too!
(I was in a play with a gent who knows Judith Hoag well, and when I went on about TMNT during rehearsal he said something along the lines of, "Oh I'll be sure to tell Judy!")

Yeah... it worked having Raph get beat down, but it didn't leave much for Leo to do. At all.

You mean you don't think Megan Fox was a better April? :trazz: I kid, I kid...

Hoag did a great reporter / 80's April... I'd be curious to see who would be cast as a take on IDW/4Kids April, with more technical leanings and abilities.

It's hard to give equal developement for all four turtles in just one movie, on top of establishing everything else. I would be fine with Raph getting most of it in movie 1 (like in 1990), Leo/Donnie in the sequel, and finally Mikey in 3.

Agreed. But I'd like them to give all four Turtles, at minimum, the development of Bruce Banner and Natasha Romanov in The Avengers. Not as much as Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, but still some sizable chunks.

TheSkeletonMan939
08-26-2016, 01:26 PM
My biggest issue with the 1990 film is that the turtles don't seem to notice the man in April's apartment. Plot hole!!!

http://www.moviemistakes.com/images/mistakegrabs/108191.jpg

somethingreal
08-26-2016, 01:27 PM
I don't like the PD films, and I surely don't like the designs. But what mainly bothered me about that movie was the screen-time for the turtles. As much as I disliked the look, I feel that in the short time they appeared, the turtles each got a fair amount of representation that I hope to see in any future films. But do away with mike being a creepy stalker...

Andrew NDB
08-26-2016, 01:28 PM
I'm with Cylon on the 1990 film not being 100% perfect.
It was damn close, for certain

It's the closest we've gotten, but still pretty far away. But if something like OotS is as far away as the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, TMNT 1990 is about a Bering Sea length away.

snake
08-26-2016, 01:29 PM
Maybe. That's a poor comparison IMO because I think mcu Hulk is severly underused and Widow is boring outside of her backstory. If I could get a gurantee that each turtle will get to have their time to shine over 3 movies I'd take it.

plastroncafe
08-26-2016, 01:32 PM
Yeah... it worked having Raph get beat down, but it didn't leave much for Leo to do. At all.

You mean you don't think Megan Fox was a better April? :trazz: I kid, I kid...

Hoag did a great reporter / 80's April... I'd be curious to see who would be cast as a take on IDW/4Kids April, with more technical leanings and abilities.


I'm highly biased here, in that I really don't usually like how Leo is written. For the most part I find him, and many characters like him, boring and uncompelling.

I didn't really start to appreciate Leo as a character until the 2k7 movie, where for the first time I got to see him as a perfectionist with an ego the size of the Empire State. That's when I started going back and reviewing other version of him and being a bit more entertained by him.

So yeah...to lose out on the character development of Leo getting taken down some notches dulls him a bit for me.

I can see why it was done, narrative wise, but...I'd really like some incarnation to give us a reason why Leo is the leader. Show us, not just tell us.

You joke about Fox, but I'll be honest: She and Raph were about the only saving graces that movie had.


My biggest issue with the 1990 film is that the turtles don't seem to notice the man in April's apartment. Plot hole!!!

http://www.moviemistakes.com/images/mistakegrabs/108191.jpg

OMG That's brilliant!

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:32 PM
Maybe. That's a poor comparison IMO because I think mcu Hulk is severly underused and Widow is boring outside of her backstory. If I could get a gurantee that each turtle will get to have their time to shine over 3 movies I'd take it.

I agree it's a poor comparison. It was the best I could come up with at the moment.

Because remember, Hulk and Widow had both had previous film entries just a couple of years ago with The Incredible Hulk (never mind the recast) and Iron Man 2.

I guess X-Men Days of Future Past would be better? Most of the development to Xavier and Erik, but still substantial development for Hank and Raven? With Moira getting the amount of development needed for April?

snake
08-26-2016, 01:34 PM
I agree it's a poor comparison. It was the best I could come up with at the moment.

Because remember, Hulk and Widow had both had previous film entries just a couple of years ago with The Incredible Hulk (never mind the recast) and Iron Man 2.

I guess X-Men Days of Future Past would be better? Most of the development to Xavier and Erik, but still substantial development for Hank and Raven? With Moira getting the amount of development needed for April?
DOFP is a good example for sure. I still like my idea best though :lol:

plastroncafe
08-26-2016, 01:36 PM
I don't think it's a matter of screen time or focus, but rather just giving the characters something to do.

We get a lot of development from Mike in that first movie, and he's nowhere near the focus.

snake
08-26-2016, 01:37 PM
I don't think it's a matter of screen time or focus, but rather just giving the characters something to do.

We get a lot of development from Mike in that first movie, and he's nowhere near the focus.

Most people think that developement=screentime for some reason

plastroncafe
08-26-2016, 01:41 PM
This is why we have the Sexy Lamp Test (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sexy_Lamp_Test).

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:44 PM
DOFP is a good example for sure. I still like my idea best though :lol:

At the moment, I honestly don't trust that a GOOD Ninja Turtles movie would ever get a sequel. Go the Christopher Nolan route and go all out with one movie, then come up with a sequel later. Don't leave stuff on the table for later with the assumption of "Eh, Mikey will get plenty of time to shine in a threequel..." Make necessary things happen NOW.

I'm highly biased here, in that I really don't usually like how Leo is written. For the most part I find him, and many characters like him, boring and uncompelling.

I didn't really start to appreciate Leo as a character until the 2k7 movie, where for the first time I got to see him as a perfectionist with an ego the size of the Empire State. That's when I started going back and reviewing other version of him and being a bit more entertained by him.

So yeah...to lose out on the character development of Leo getting taken down some notches dulls him a bit for me.

I can see why it was done, narrative wise, but...I'd really like some incarnation to give us a reason why Leo is the leader. Show us, not just tell us.

You joke about Fox, but I'll be honest: She and Raph were about the only saving graces that movie had.

I love Leo; when he's burdened by the choices they've already made in "City at War" and wondering what it's all coming to... or when he's struggling with nobody to lead in Mirage Volume 2. But yeah, we really need to be SHOWN that Leo is the leader.

Most people think that developement=screentime for some reason

This is quite true. It's just easy to use the terms interchangably.

I'll argue that Cap gets NO development in the Avengers movie. He's just there in a terrible suit throwing his shield around. I really hate when Whedon writes Cap...

snake
08-26-2016, 01:47 PM
But Nolan planned a batman trilogy. I get what you mean though. Space out the sequels.

snake
08-26-2016, 01:48 PM
This is why we have the Sexy Lamp Test (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sexy_Lamp_Test).

I think I just found a nickname for Nick Mona Lisa :lol:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 01:52 PM
But Nolan planned a batman trilogy. I get what you mean though. Space out the sequels.

More like, don't use hoped-for sequels as a crutch. You can't leave a major character out on a limb saying "Don't worry, we'll take care of him in a movie or two."

snake
08-26-2016, 01:55 PM
More like, don't use hoped-for sequels as a crutch. You can't leave a major character out on a limb saying "Don't worry, we'll take care of him in a movie or two."

I getchu. Hate that sh*t. Everyone's trying to hop on the MCU train and it doesn't work. Certain stuff needs to be paced out though. If you want to do an origin story in movie one, that's great. But don't try to cram everything in there, like Utroms, Bebop/Rocksteady, all that good stuff needs to be built up or you can have a 3 hour runtime. It's all about having a focused story.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 02:01 PM
I getchu. Hate that sh*t. Everyone's trying to hop on the MCU train and it doesn't work. Certain stuff needs to be paced out though. If you want to do an origin story in movie one, that's great. But don't try to cram everything in there, like Utroms, Bebop/Rocksteady, all that good stuff needs to be built up or you can have a 3 hour runtime. It's all about having a focused story.

Exactly. Movies don't get to do an entire season's worth of characters and plots. Pick one or two that work well together and present a focused story, and DO IT.

Basically, if you worry that your film might be compared to Batman & Robin or Amazing Spiderman 2, DON'T DO IT. :tlol:

Bry
08-26-2016, 05:49 PM
It seems all anyone wants when it comes to a new TMNT movie is Shredder and the Origin story. Why do you all want the same thing over and over again? Haven't we learned anything from spider-man and being force fed the green goblin?

There's a big difference between the Shredder and the Green Goblin. In TMNT, The Shredder is part of the story's foundation. He's irrevocably tied into what forms the emotional core of the concept and the chain of events that lead to the Turtles' origin. Cutting him out or significantly altering him (like BayTurtles did) breaks the entire story.

He's also their "main" nemesis, yes, but his position in the foundation of the origin isn't the same situation as, say, the Green Goblin or the Joker. A better comparison is this: taking the Shredder out of the origin is like taking out the radioactive spider for Spider-Man or the mugger in the alley for Batman. He's what gives them their motivation and makes the story happen. You really have to start there, and any version that doesn't get that step right tends to fall flat on its face.

turtlefanforever
08-26-2016, 07:21 PM
doesn't mean they need to fight the same villain and tell the same story over and over again. MANY other stories to be told and villains to fight

snake
08-26-2016, 07:32 PM
doesn't mean they need to fight the same villain and tell the same story over and over again. MANY other stories to be told and villains to fight

You still need to establish Shredder as the big villain before moving on. He's as essential to tmnt as April, Splinter, or Casey.

Anarchistguy
08-26-2016, 07:33 PM
Problem is: to the causal movie watcher, you cant have a tmnt movie without shredder. If they make a shredder-less movie, the casuals and critics will tear it apart and said movie will lose money.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 07:34 PM
You still need to establish Shredder as the big villain before moving on. He's as essential to tmnt as April, Splinter, or Casey.

He's MORE essential to TMNT than Casey and April. :tlol:

snake
08-26-2016, 07:35 PM
Problem is: to the causal movie watcher, you cant have a tmnt movie without shredder. If they make a shredder-less movie, the casuals and critics will eat it alive.

If you're going to start a new tmnt film incarnation, you start with Shredder. No "setting up for a sequel" bullsh*t. MYSELF included would be pissed if they only hinted towards Shredder.

2007 gets a pass because it can take place after the 1990 continuty if you ignore the comics. And that took place in a world where the turtles already fought him. Point is, it wasn't an origin story.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 07:36 PM
If you're going to start a new tmnt film incarnation, you start with Shredder. No "setting up for a sequel" bullsh*t. MYSELF included would be pissed if they only hinted towards Shredder.

You've gotta explain where four giant mutant turtles came from and why they're ninjas.

You can't explain why they're ninjas without Shredder.

snake
08-26-2016, 07:39 PM
You've gotta explain where four giant mutant turtles came from and why they're ninjas.

You can't explain why they're ninjas without Shredder.

Yep, yep.


I have to say though, a day ago or two someone posted the idea of Hamato Yoshi being a villain and that's probably the coolest story idea I've heard. If done properly, that would be a great twist in the sequel (or at the end of the first).

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 07:40 PM
Yep, yep.


I have to say though, someone posted the idea of Hamato Yoshi being a villain and that's probably the coolest idea I've heard. If done properly, that would be a great twist in the sequel (or at the end of the first).

Agreed. That would be a fresh and original spin on an old idea. If done well, as brilliant a new take as Karai being Hamato Yoshi's biological daughter twisted by Shredder, or the Turtles and Splinter being reincarnated.

snake
08-26-2016, 07:43 PM
Agreed. That would be a fresh and original spin on an old idea. If done well, as brilliant a new take as Karai being Hamato Yoshi's biological daughter twisted by Shredder, or the Turtles and Splinter being reincarnated.

I don't know if the reincarnation story could fit in with properly with the Hamato Yoshi twist. How would you do that?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 07:51 PM
I don't know if the reincarnation story could fit in with properly with the Hamato Yoshi twist. How would you do that?

No no no. I'm not saying mix them; I'm saying the impact of such a good new idea (if done well) would be equivalent to the impact of good new ideas like Miwa and reincarnated Yoshi clan.

snake
08-26-2016, 08:10 PM
No no no. I'm not saying mix them; I'm saying the impact of such a good new idea (if done well) would be equivalent to the impact of good new ideas like Miwa and reincarnated Yoshi clan.

Oh ok. Yeah, I agree. Twists like that are my favorite thing in storytelling. I think Miwa could've have a lot more impact that was skipped out on by dropping and picking up the plot whenever they felt like.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 08:13 PM
Oh ok. Yeah, I agree. Twists like that are my favorite thing in storytelling. I think Miwa could've have a lot more impact that was skipped out on by dropping and picking up the plot whenever they felt like.

Absolutely. But that's a different rant. :tlol:

snake
08-26-2016, 08:15 PM
Absolutely. But that's a different rant. :tlol:

Casey's father in IDW got me good. I did NOT expect that. Underrated twist.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 08:18 PM
Casey's father in IDW got me good. I did NOT expect that. Underrated twist.

That was also good. Really gave Hun some gravitas that he lacked in 4Kids and totally upped the ante with Arnie "The Alcoholic" Jones.

MsMarvelDuckie
08-26-2016, 08:18 PM
Yep, yep.


I have to say though, a day ago or two someone posted the idea of Hamato Yoshi being a villain and that's probably the coolest story idea I've heard. If done properly, that would be a great twist in the sequel (or at the end of the first).

I've done it. Dark Splinter/Turtles. It has been a fun experience and a challenge to make it work well. Hopefully I have succeeded. But yeah new ideas can be good if done right.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 08:22 PM
I've done it. Dark Splinter/Turtles. It has been a fun experience and a challenge to make it work well. Hopefully I have succeeded. But yeah new ideas can be good if done right.

That's a very different thing, though.

What we're discussing is Splinter and the Turtles believing Yoshi died a hero, only to find out later that he is/was, in fact, a villain who ended up in league with Oroku Saki and that their martyred human master was a lie.

snake
08-26-2016, 08:24 PM
That's a very different thing, though.

What we're discussing is Splinter and the Turtles believing Yoshi died a hero, only to find out later that he is/was, in fact, a villain who ended up in league with Oroku Saki and that their martyred human master was a lie.

Hamato revealing himself pulling the strings from behind the scenes would be the greatest scene in the film.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 08:25 PM
Hamato revealing himself pulling the strings from behind the scenes would be the greatest scene in the film.

Like Henri Ducard being R'as al Ghul, except a thousand times more surprising.

Bry
08-26-2016, 08:25 PM
doesn't mean they need to fight the same villain and tell the same story over and over again. MANY other stories to be told and villains to fight

I agree to a point. But you need to set the foundation properly first. Go hog wild in the sequels, absolutely, but the Yoshi/Saki rivalry is essential to everything that comes after it. If you mess that up, like the Bay moves did, then you stumbled on the very first step. Time to start over.

MsMarvelDuckie
08-26-2016, 08:52 PM
That's a very different thing, though.

What we're discussing is Splinter and the Turtles believing Yoshi died a hero, only to find out later that he is/was, in fact, a villain who ended up in league with Oroku Saki and that their martyred human master was a lie.

Hmm. I get what you are saying. But that is assuming Splinter was the pet. In my version he WAS Yoshi, and Shredder's "betrayal" was an attempt to expose Yoshi for the traitor he was to the Foot clan. Then after Yoshi fled he was mutated and created the turtles himself to get revenge. Thus beginning the feud. But Splinter believing his master was a good man and learning he was not could be interesting too.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-26-2016, 09:03 PM
Hmm. I get what you are saying. But that is assuming Splinter was the pet. In my version he WAS Yoshi, and Shredder's "betrayal" was an attempt to expose Yoshi for the traitor he was to the Foot clan. Then after Yoshi fled he was mutated and created the turtles himself to get revenge. Thus beginning the feud. But Splinter believing his master was a good man and learning he was not could be interesting too.

No offense, Duckie, but your version is fan fiction based in the Fred Wolf universe. (I still need to read that next chapter...)

MsMarvelDuckie
08-26-2016, 09:26 PM
True. I wanted it to be a much darker version of FW though, more on par with Mirage in terms of maturity. Or basically FW all grown up.The only thing that is really the same is the characters being used. But it does use that incarnation, I just thought since we were discussing the idea of Yoshi being bad I'd posit an example of him done that way. The fact that he is (FW)Splinter was a side-note. Could have just as easily used Nick or IDW.

I see it this way. The only difference between fan-fic and canon is whether or not the writer is getting paid to do it. Either can be good or bad. Look at the Bay TMNT. I'm pretty sure any of us writers here on the Drome could have written a better script. But fan-fic gets such a bad rap as "self-insert" or Mary Sue trash even when it it MILES better than a "professionally" written story.

Ninjinister
08-26-2016, 09:49 PM
I don't think at all that we all - or even any - of us want the same movie over and over.

I feel like as much as I'm one of the ones who didn't hate it, the 2014 film did a pisspoor job at cobbling together an origin for the Turtles. Without a reason to hate Shredder outside of being le bad guy, and with Splinter's introduction to ninjutsu being a damn book, it's all clumsy and stupid. Hell even if they kept Sacks as Shredder it still wouldn't have held much weight.

I was thinking the other night about how I would do a reboot for a movie if for some freakin' reason I was selected to go about it. Not too much to detail in the off chance that I get to use it as something, but it would start out with the Turtles saving April from Stockman and the Mousers as a prelude, then Splinter laying out the origin, and the Shredder fight actually after that - with giving April something to do but not like Final Blow Fox. Capped off with a cool thing involving Stockman that isn't "lol fly mutant" or "lol cyborg". Obviously it's just one guy's dream but I think anything in the similar wheelhouse of Shredder + Stockman (and not together as a team) would work for a "first movie" of a reboot.

snake
08-26-2016, 10:22 PM
Just imagine this.


Splinter vs Hamato Yoshi vs Shredder in one fight. There are multiple ways that can lead to Yoshi and Shredder splitting up, but just the thought of that fight is amazing.

Cryomancer
08-26-2016, 10:44 PM
How about one where Splinter isn't morally any better than Shredder, just has less resources. He intentionally mutates and trains the turtles for his own revenge, so he can lead the Foot himself. The turtles grow up as weapons, fulfill their mission, and then what do they do with their lives?

Mirage covers some of that last part and that's where a lot of the best TMNT material comes from. I'd almost like it if they made a movie where the origin and defeat of Shredder is covered in the opening credits and the film proper all takes place in the aftermath. Sometimes I think this whole "well you HAVE TO have Shredder" mentality is one of the franchise's greatest stumbling blocks and the sooner things can move past that idea, the better. You have to have HAD a Shredder for good TMNT, but he doesn't need to still be there.

Panda_Kahn_fan
08-26-2016, 10:56 PM
Not all of us want to see an origin regurgitation, but I think many do want to see a faithful Mirage adaptation of the origin, or just want to wash what they perceive as the bad taste of PD turtles out of their mouths. As for me, I have no desire to see a new shredder/TMNT origin film in any way, shape, or form. And if one is made I'll be skipping it until said reboot's sequel comes out with a new story.

Ninjinister
08-26-2016, 11:11 PM
Not all of us want to see an origin regurgitation, but I think many do want to see a faithful Mirage adaptation of the origin, or just want to wash what they perceive as the bad taste of PD turtles out of their mouths. As for me, I have no desire to see a new shredder/TMNT origin film in any way, shape, or form. And if one is made I'll be skipping it until said reboot's sequel comes out with a new story.

I feel like that's fair. The first movie in a reboot wouldn't be necessarily for people who already knew the story anyway. I feel like, though, as long as we aren't getting three reboots in the span of 15 years like Spider-Man, we should still be good.

Xav
08-26-2016, 11:14 PM
I kind of wish we'd seen Oroku Saki as well as Shredder.Don't we see him in the flashback?

Commenter 42
08-26-2016, 11:38 PM
Well, for one thing, there hasn't been a FAITHFUL and/or GOOD TMNT origin movie done yet.

We can do better than the 1990 movie. And we can do a HELL of a lot better than Platinum Dunes' trash.

On this, I fully agree.

Andrew NDB
08-26-2016, 11:46 PM
I'd be a big advocate of the reincarnation thing cinematically. It doesn't belong in something like Mirage, of course, but it's the one big thing from IDW I can absolutely rally behind as a "good idea" in a new iteration, particularly a cinematic one.

It just opens up so many doors. You could have a scene with Leonardo about to run at Oroku Saki, and suddenly have this sweeping flashback of Oroku Saki in Feudal Japan being watched by pre-Leo Leo reaping through townsfolk, or whatever. It has value.

But maybe I'm biased. I'm a big Highlander fan, and it would mean that live-action TMNT would get flashbacks. Like Highlander.

Commenter 42
08-27-2016, 02:14 AM
I'd be a big advocate of the reincarnation thing cinematically. It doesn't belong in something like Mirage, of course, but it's the one big thing from IDW I can absolutely rally behind as a "good idea" in a new iteration, particularly a cinematic one.

It just opens up so many doors. You could have a scene with Leonardo about to run at Oroku Saki, and suddenly have this sweeping flashback of Oroku Saki in Feudal Japan being watched by pre-Leo Leo reaping through townsfolk, or whatever. It has value.

But maybe I'm biased. I'm a big Highlander fan, and it would mean that live-action TMNT would get flashbacks. Like Highlander.

Hunh...

I like highlander too, they're great fun, but I think the mystical elements really hurt TMNT.
Reincarnation destroys the elegant chaos of their conception.

Maybe I'm biased, but I'd rather their animalia was used to satirize an 1980's NY.
The less human nature, the better. Maybe then we could finally escape all the "I love being a Turtle" self referential flat one liners.

It might be cool to see a crossover though... What happens if Leo receives a quickening? Does he enter the game?

Maybe that's tooooo weird...

Powder
08-27-2016, 02:33 AM
Reincarnation angle aside, spirituality & mysticism is an integral part of TMNT. Gotta have at least a little of that in there with each iteration.

turtlefanforever
08-27-2016, 07:24 AM
I agree to a point. But you need to set the foundation properly first. Go hog wild in the sequels, absolutely, but the Yoshi/Saki rivalry is essential to everything that comes after it. If you mess that up, like the Bay moves did, then you stumbled on the very first step. Time to start over.

There is literally no reason you need to dedicate another whole movie to origin story. It can all be explained in pictures/voice over if the opening credits if it really needs to be told again.

Bry
08-27-2016, 08:09 AM
There is literally no reason you need to dedicate another whole movie to origin story. It can all be explained in pictures/voice over if the opening credits if it really needs to be told again.

The 2007 movie essentially did that. And I enjoyed that movie, it got the emotions of the family down pretty well overall even if the plot was pretty half-baked. But I don't think it really clicked as well as it should have, and trying to restart a property really needs to do that.

And really, the TMNT origin story just isn't as widely, immediately known as Spider-Man's or Batman's. It's only been properly told in a movie once, and that was 26 years ago. I'm not saying you need an entire movie to tell it, necessarily, but if they're starting over from square one, setting the foundation for a whole new series, and expecting it to work as an actual movie and not just a nostalgia trip for people who are already fans, they can't just skip or gloss over that part and expect it to work as well. You need to know who these characters are, where they came from, and what motivates them. And like it or not, that hinges on the Saki/Yoshi rivalry and the Shredder.

Wesley
08-27-2016, 08:46 AM
The 1990 film is absolutely perfect. Just go about updating that with some changes here and there and you have a great movie. The sequels can move into the weirder and different stuff once the first movie is out of the way

I don't agree. I watched the 1990 film for the first time recently and thought it was okay, but it has its flaws (Not much character development, bad pacing and the ending was anticlimactic). It was good for its time, but it doesn't hold up well, to me anyway. I think the 2007 film was much better, even though it had its own problems. I think a live-action origin film based on season one of the 2003 series up to the two-part episode The Shredder Strikes would be a good idea.

plastroncafe
08-27-2016, 09:35 AM
I'd be a big advocate of the reincarnation thing cinematically. It doesn't belong in something like Mirage, of course, but it's the one big thing from IDW I can absolutely rally behind as a "good idea" in a new iteration, particularly a cinematic one.

It just opens up so many doors. You could have a scene with Leonardo about to run at Oroku Saki, and suddenly have this sweeping flashback of Oroku Saki in Feudal Japan being watched by pre-Leo Leo reaping through townsfolk, or whatever. It has value.

But maybe I'm biased. I'm a big Highlander fan, and it would mean that live-action TMNT would get flashbacks. Like Highlander.

Still haven't caught up on IDW, but the issues directly dealing with the reincarnation are my favorite of the series. It's such a great way to keep to the spirit of the past while still forging forward in one's own direction.

Which is what each incarnation should all have been doing all along.

turtlefanforever
08-27-2016, 11:38 AM
The 2007 movie essentially did that. And I enjoyed that movie, it got the emotions of the family down pretty well overall even if the plot was pretty half-baked. But I don't think it really clicked as well as it should have, and trying to restart a property really needs to do that.

And really, the TMNT origin story just isn't as widely, immediately known as Spider-Man's or Batman's. It's only been properly told in a movie once, and that was 26 years ago. I'm not saying you need an entire movie to tell it, necessarily, but if they're starting over from square one, setting the foundation for a whole new series, and expecting it to work as an actual movie and not just a nostalgia trip for people who are already fans, they can't just skip or gloss over that part and expect it to work as well. You need to know who these characters are, where they came from, and what motivates them. And like it or not, that hinges on the Saki/Yoshi rivalry and the Shredder.

you amuse because there will be one in this scenario that there will be sequels so it's ok to make yet another origin movie? Sequels are never guaranteed. Give me something NEW give me something FRESH. Not a "fresh" take on the old story. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Shredder has had his time to shine, the origin story has been done to death. When's Kronos' turn? Whens Savanti Romero's turn? When's the Rat Kings turn? Bishop, Hun & the purple dragons, Armaggon, Slash. ect. So many compelling characters and they're getting passed up for the same fricken thing over and over. It's ludicrous.

ToTheNines
08-27-2016, 11:50 AM
When's Kronos' turn?

Lol, never.

Commenter 42
08-27-2016, 12:36 PM
Reincarnation angle aside, spirituality & mysticism is an integral part of TMNT. Gotta have at least a little of that in there with each iteration.

The campfire meditation in '90 was okay, but it really doesn't have to be included.

I like new things too, but some folks just wanna Madonna ****. It's like the people who have a new personality every family xmas; this year they're a make up specialist, next they're a rodeo clown, then they went to Bali to teach yoga, five weeks later they're a photographer...now they've been saved by Jesus, but two years earlier they were in a satanic cult.

31 flavors are great on their own, but all blended up, it's overkill.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-27-2016, 03:51 PM
The 1990 film is absolutely perfect. Just go about updating that with some changes here and there and you have a great movie. The sequels can move into the weirder and different stuff once the first movie is out of the way

The first film is OK start up. I would still like the second if it had kept the extraterrestrial origin of the ooze. Still more upset 25 years later after reading how close to happening that was.

Xav
08-27-2016, 05:23 PM
Give me something NEW give me something FRESH. Not a "fresh" take on the old story. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Shredder has had his time to shine, the origin story has been done to death. When's Kronos' turn? Whens Savanti Romero's turn? When's the Rat Kings turn? Bishop, Hun & the purple dragons, Armaggon, Slash. ect. So many compelling characters and they're getting passed up for the same fricken thing over and over. It's ludicrous.Well they tried doing something fresh with TMNT III and IV but nobody watched them.

Avenger
08-31-2016, 01:56 PM
Still haven't caught up on IDW, but the issues directly dealing with the reincarnation are my favorite of the series. It's such a great way to keep to the spirit of the past while still forging forward in one's own direction.

Which is what each incarnation should all have been doing all along.

For the TMNT fans (IDW or not), it would be OK to bring the reincarnation angle in a movie. I would love it, personnally.

For most of people, having 4 turtles and a rat being the reincarnations of a family in old Japan is as much ridiculous as learning ninjitsu in a book.

It would be considered as Deus Ex Machina. I know ninjitsu book is one, but people need to have a reason why THIS rat is Yoshi's reincarnation.

Or maybe I'm too bitter about public critics ;-)

pferreira
09-01-2016, 09:08 AM
Problem is: to the causal movie watcher, you cant have a tmnt movie without shredder. If they make a shredder-less movie, the casuals and critics will tear it apart and said movie will lose money.Let the 2007 film be a lesson... :lol:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-01-2016, 09:29 AM
Let the 2007 film be a lesson... :lol:

If the 2007 movie had been Foot Clan with Karai, or Stockman and Mousers, or Rat King, or Triceratons, or Bishop, or ANY preexisting lesser-yet-still-well-known villain, it would have done better.

But some film-original antagonist that wasn't hugely interesting...?

NOT a good way to relaunch/reboot your film series.

That's like trying to relaunch Fantastic Four using Mole Man as your primary antagonist.

Chris
09-01-2016, 04:29 PM
Yeah, if they'd managed to give us the characterisations and family dynamics of the film and had Karai/The Foot or another classic villain as the primary antagonist the film would probably have done much better. The villains were the real weak link in that film.

Andrew NDB
09-01-2016, 04:40 PM
If the 2007 movie had been Foot Clan with Karai

Eh, it was. Though I get what you're saying. It would've been fine with just those elements in play at the forefront and not the bad Playstation 1 FMV-esque cavalcade of monster wackiness and pseudo lesson on Immortality that we got instead. In fact, it was very nearly subtitled "Immortal." Think I even had a poster of that.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/thesaintofkiller/media/TCBS093.jpg.html

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-01-2016, 06:25 PM
Eh, it was. Though I get what you're saying. It would've been fine with just those elements in play at the forefront and not the bad Playstation 1 FMV-esque cavalcade of monster wackiness and pseudo lesson on Immortality that we got instead. In fact, it was very nearly subtitled "Immortal." Think I even had a poster of that.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/thesaintofkiller/media/TCBS093.jpg.html

Yeah, you know what I mean... more Foot, less Bigfoot. :twink:

"Immortal." I like that. Headcanon now. TMNT: Immortal.

MikeandRaph87
09-01-2016, 07:07 PM
I do feel Shredder is necessary in a film. Its hard pressed to see a great film without him. As for an origin? Origins get dull and the only true origin was the 1990 film as said above.

CKD,send me the concept again that you referenced.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-01-2016, 07:13 PM
I do feel Shredder is necessary in a film. Its hard pressed to see a great film without him. As for an origin? Origins get dull and the only true origin was the 1990 film as said above.

CKD,send me the concept again that you referenced.

There are plenty of good TMNT stories that can and have been told without Oroku Saki. TMNT have the rogues gallery equivalent of Arkham Asylum.

Krang, Bishop, Bebop and Rocksteady, Old Hob, Karai, Pimiko, Foot Mystics, Leatherhead, Rat King, Slash, Baxter Stockman, Ch'rell...

You have to have a good Shredder story to begin with, but the sky's the limit after that.

Galactus
09-02-2016, 04:14 PM
Isn't the "same movie over and over" exactly what we're getting from Platinum Dunes?

Out of the Shadows is basically the 2014 movie except worse. The plane crash and river chase is basically the snow chase except not as good, the battle with Robo-Krang on top of the Technodrome while Don deactivates a doomsday machine intercut with April and Vern fighting Karai is basically the battle with Robo-Shredder on top of the tower while Don deactivates a doomsday machine intercut with April and Vern fighting Sachs except not as good.

Now it's bizarre to describe any scene from the 2014 movie as 'good' but at least they had something whereas the retreads in this year's movie automatically lose impact because we've seen these things before but they also genuinely not as well done.

There's even specific scenes like the turtles using the sewer tunnels like a slide (I guess Splinter should be thankful none of his sons farted on him) or specific jokes like the hip hop Christmas album that are just outright recycled. If there's a third I have little doubt we'd seen Baxter fly chasing the turtles in some improbable location and the turtles battling Super Shredder in some high up location while Don programs a retro mutagen gun intercut with April and Vern trouncing Bebop and Rocksteady except not as good. I'll pass on that thank you.

As for whether a TMNT movie can be accepted without Shredder - well Out of the Shadows did have Shredder and we were (falsely) led to believe he'd have a bigger role and yet people still turned their noses up at it. I do believe a genuinely good movie featuring Shredder would build up the the general public's confidence in the same team moving on to other villains.

Longview01
09-05-2016, 03:38 AM
Isn't the "same movie over and over" exactly what we're getting from Platinum Dunes?

Out of the Shadows is basically the 2014 movie except worse. The plane crash and river chase is basically the snow chase except not as good, the battle with Robo-Krang on top of the Technodrome while Don deactivates a doomsday machine intercut with April and Vern fighting Karai is basically the battle with Robo-Shredder on top of the tower while Don deactivates a doomsday machine intercut with April and Vern fighting Sachs except not as good.

Now it's bizarre to describe any scene from the 2014 movie as 'good' but at least they had something whereas the retreads in this year's movie automatically lose impact because we've seen these things before but they also genuinely not as well done.

There's even specific scenes like the turtles using the sewer tunnels like a slide (I guess Splinter should be thankful none of his sons farted on him) or specific jokes like the hip hop Christmas album that are just outright recycled. If there's a third I have little doubt we'd seen Baxter fly chasing the turtles in some improbable location and the turtles battling Super Shredder in some high up location while Don programs a retro mutagen gun intercut with April and Vern trouncing Bebop and Rocksteady except not as good. I'll pass on that thank you.

As for whether a TMNT movie can be accepted without Shredder - well Out of the Shadows did have Shredder and we were (falsely) led to believe he'd have a bigger role and yet people still turned their noses up at it. I do believe a genuinely good movie featuring Shredder would build up the the general public's confidence in the same team moving on to other villains.

I pretty much disagree with everything you just said

ToTheNines
09-05-2016, 03:47 AM
I pretty much agree with everything he said.

Powder
09-05-2016, 06:03 AM
It's amazing that people on the internet disagree with facts, like that's even a thing.

Longview01
09-05-2016, 06:54 AM
It's amazing that people on the internet disagree with facts, like that's even a thing.

Its amazing that seem to have to taken to stalking me on an internet forum...

EDIT - Oh...theres a block button :)

Powder
09-05-2016, 07:04 AM
Yeah, posting in one of your threads & making a comment about your odd point of view in another sure is stalking! Check your ego. :trolleye:

ToTheNines
09-05-2016, 07:14 AM
People can be so weird on here.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-05-2016, 10:04 AM
I will forever think it's possible to do the origin as a 3-5 minute flashback, and then tell your own story. If it's a good movie, the casual TMNT fans will come. every generation has had a TMNT origin, every casual fan 'gets it'. Kids, the target audience know the origin from the Nick cartoon. A retelling might be boring for them.

LeotheLateBloomer
09-05-2016, 11:49 AM
The origin has been told and altered in different versions of this property where one camp will remember Splinter being a pet rat who became a mutant where the other camp will remember him as Hamato Yoshi mutating into a rat. Not to mention, it doesn't stop superhero films such as Batman and Spider-Man from retelling their origins. I've longed for an origin where we finally get a brief story of Oroku Nagi on film.

snake
09-05-2016, 11:52 AM
People can be so weird on here.

This place must have a weirdo attractor built in to the site's features. SOMETHING draws them here

Galactus
09-08-2016, 08:37 PM
I pretty much disagree with everything you just said

Care to elaborate or are you just going to leave it at that?

This place must have a weirdo attractor built in to the site's features. SOMETHING draws them here

I know, I just couldn't help it. I'd never even heard of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles but I was just inexplicably drawn here.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-26-2016, 12:25 PM
[QUOTE=Cryomancer;1617648]He intentionally mutates/QUOTE]

Might work if he has some Utrom contracts.

Coola Yagami
09-29-2016, 09:32 PM
To be fair though.... we've never seen Yoshi turning into Splinter on film... And the feud always felt much more personal when Splinter was Yoshi rather than just his pet rat.

Powder
09-29-2016, 09:53 PM
That's one thing I think the OT improved upon, for sure. The Yoshi turned splinter origin works best.

Andrew NDB
09-29-2016, 10:12 PM
That's one thing I think the OT improved upon, for sure. The Yoshi turned splinter origin works best.

Hey, if there's a way to do that without making the mutagen what the OT made it (touch a flea, touch some ooze, become Fleaman, etc.) then I'm not against it. Though I'm not really against the reincarnation element of IDW if used in a new live action iteration.

Just one way, see my idea for a reboot... Yoshi dies saving the kid carrying the turtles from the TCRI truck, holding his pet rat as the truck hits him and the ooze splashes. i.e., some of his consciousness seeps into the rat as it begins the mutation process.

pferreira
10-06-2016, 08:34 AM
That's one thing I think the OT improved upon, for sure. The Yoshi turned splinter origin works best.Yeah I enjoyed Splinter's origin done that way. In the OT at least to begin with it allowed Splinter a goal for the series which was to become human. Splinter No More was obviously the end of that story arc though.

Myko
10-09-2016, 02:26 PM
Could one make a variation where Splinter is mutated before Yoshi is killed, and Yoshi can train Splinter?

Cryomancer
10-09-2016, 02:39 PM
You could but you'd need either two accidental mutation events or Splinter intentionally mutating the turtles.

Powder
10-09-2016, 03:30 PM
Could one make a variation where Splinter is mutated before Yoshi is killed, and Yoshi can train Splinter?

Kinda nukes the point of learning to fight to avenge him. Imagine if Bruce Wayne honed his ninja skills, developed the Batman persona, & THEN his parents died. It just doesn't work.

Leolead
10-09-2016, 04:39 PM
Because we want a full on Turtles origin story, properly. I think the 1990 movie did a great job but I want to spend more diving into the Shredder mythology. We need the first 15 minutes to focus completely on Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki.

Xav
10-09-2016, 06:45 PM
Kinda nukes the point of learning to fight to avenge him. Imagine if Bruce Wayne honed his ninja skills, developed the Batman persona, & THEN his parents died. It just doesn't work.But Splinter already knew how to fight from watching Splinter, so him actually being training by Splinter wouldn't make any difference.

Panda_Kahn_fan
10-10-2016, 09:39 AM
Kinda nukes the point of learning to fight to avenge him. Imagine if Bruce Wayne honed his ninja skills, developed the Batman persona, & THEN his parents died. It just doesn't work.

Yoshi becoming splinter still works with the vengeance angle, because he's avenging his wife and dead family, instead of a pet rat avenging his owner.

But see, with the rat origin,there is a problem here. Having Splinter become a martial arts master and somehow picking up the ability to read, write and speak both Japanese and English from watching from watching and mimicking moves when he's a normal rat, stretches the disbelief to the breaking point.

The key is in the 4Kids series; have Splinter go to back Yoshi's sensei after he mutates (the ancient one/master mogo/master masato/whoever) and the sensei takes pity on the rat and the four infant turtles he's raising. The sensei educates splinter and teaches him martial arts so he can protect himself, but Splinter is so obsessed with vengeance that he takes his four sons and goes to live in the sewers, raising the TMNT as weapons to use against Shredder, and telling them he learned martial arts by mimicking his master's moves, so the turtles will never be influenced by the sensei's 'peaceful' ways. (though of course, the whole vengeance thing comes back to bite splinter in the behind)

Splinter doesn't need to learn martial arts from Yoshi. he simply has to remeber him being a caring pet owner

Masterpiece
10-13-2016, 10:13 PM
The 1990 film is absolutely perfect. Just go about updating that with some changes here and there and you have a great movie. The sequels can move into the weirder and different stuff once the first movie is out of the way

Agreed!

Just include the good deleted scenes and you've got a cinematic masterpiece worthy of being preserved in the National Film Registry!

ToTheNines
10-22-2016, 06:19 AM
You could but you'd need either two accidental mutation events or Splinter intentionally mutating the turtles.

I'd go with Yoshi (using his connections as a Guardian) intentionally mutating Splinter, then the turtles being accidental.

Kinda nukes the point of learning to fight to avenge him. Imagine if Bruce Wayne honed his ninja skills, developed the Batman persona, & THEN his parents died. It just doesn't work.

I disagree. If Yoshi mutated Splinter after Shen's death, trained him, went on a few years worth of adventures fighting Shredder, then finally got killed, it leaves Splinter all by himself and with his own motivation for revenge. He then spends the next 15 years training the turtles. So Thomas and Martha are still dead before the titular characters' training montage, Thomas just stuck around a little longer :P

But as much as I love the idea, it would totally bog down a movie script. It's something that would have to be revealed over the course of an animated or comicbook series via flashbacks. Or a prequel mini.

Technogeek29
10-22-2016, 10:08 AM
Liking some idea's thrown around in here. I (as shocking as this is to here) Wouldn't mind Yoshi turning into a Rat after a fight with Saki and losing him turning into a Rat would explain why he doesn't just immediately have a rematch. Reincarnation is also fine I don't think the Turtles themselves need to be Yoshi's children from Japan but having them make him think of his family is still good.