PDA

View Full Version : Does Shredder have too many lieutenants


PApagreg
09-29-2016, 11:16 PM
I just realized something(well actually not really I was thinking about this for a long time) Shredder has too many lieutenants what I mean by it is that it feels like the writers gives Shredder too many henchmen that even they don't know what to do with and their skills are sometimes redundant.

Ex
Xever was a caporia fighter who is not only a skilled thief but also has ties with New York's underworld and tends to keep the Purple Dragons in line but a few seasons later we have Zeck who is also master thief and a season later we have Hun the guy who keeps the purple dragons in line. It feels as if the writers are too focused on making toys and figures instead of wanting a good show and to add salt to the wound Zeck and Hun aren't anything like their counterparts. Now don't get me wrong writers are free to have different interpretations with their respected incarnation but with the amount of characterzation the Nick versions Hun and Zeck have its the equivalent of making Mikey a punisher like vigilante

FredWolfLeonardo
09-29-2016, 11:52 PM
To me, it feels like Bebop, Rocksteady, Razhar, Fishface and Stockman are more like Shredder's slaves/an extension of his foot clan army. The only ones who feels like a true liuetenant is Tiger Claw.

victory_angel
09-29-2016, 11:53 PM
The Lieutenant is the second in command. So the question should be Does Shredder have too many Hench Mutants? Only Karai and Tiger Claw had been the Lieutenants. Karai lost her position to Tiger Claw to punish her for acting out against the Shredder's orders.

Fish Face, Rahazar, Bebop, and Rocksteady are purely there to be the grunts of the Foot Clan while the Foot Bots are the cannon fodder.


Rahzar and Fish face are bound to the Shredder by loyalty.

Rahzar formerly Dogpound, formerly Chris Bradford is a martial arts superstar. It's unknown what connection he holds to the Shredder, but it's implied that he may have been a student of the Shredder.

Fishface is connected to Shredder by because he owes him for bailing him out of jail.


Bebop and Rocksteady are more or less thralls of the Shredder.

Rocksteady is formerly an ally and weapons supplier of the Shredder.

Bebop is a thief who is given the task of stealing the Shredder's helmet.

Both of them were mutated as punishment both for the theft of the Kuro Kabuto, and also for using Karai to use her as a bargaining chip to them out of the Kraang infested city. Before given the choice of serving the Shredder or facing their deaths.

PApagreg
09-30-2016, 12:08 AM
To me, it feels like Bebop, Rocksteady, Razhar, Fishface and Stockman are more like Shredder's slaves/an extension of his foot clan army. The only ones who feels like a true liuetenant is Tiger Claw.

Well they are more on the top of the Foot hierarchy ordering the foot bots

The Lieutenant is the second in command. So the question should be Does Shredder have too many Hench Mutants? Only Karai and Tiger Claw had been the Lieutenants. Karai lost her position to Tiger Claw to punish her for acting out against the Shredder's orders.

Fish Face, Rahazar, Bebop, and Rocksteady are purely there to be the grunts of the Foot Clan.

Well you can have more than one Lieutenant

Fishface
09-30-2016, 12:09 AM
Well the Foot has Rahzar, Fishface, Bebop, Rocksteady and Stockman with Tiger Claw as Shredder's sidekick. I don't think Shredder has enough. Plus, those six are a needed for Shredder. Shredder obviously need Tiger Claw and needs Stockman to create mutants and other experiments for him. He needs Rahzar for some muscle and as a bodyguard for some mission and Bebop and Rocksteady are used for collecting goods for Stockman and are told to do several commands for Shredder. The only mutant that has no real work to do is Fishface ever since Dogpound became Rahzar and Stockman, Tiger Claw, Bebop and Rocksteady joined the Foot. Not to say he is useless, but there is not many jobs he has done.

Powder
09-30-2016, 12:23 AM
Shredder always has a bunch of goons, all crime lords do.

the amount of characterzation the Nick versions Hun and Zeck have its the equivalent of making Mikey a punisher like vigilante

Soooo par the course then?

http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume04/27/cover.jpg

& just because Hun is a Bruce Lee clone now doesn't mean he's not fundamentally the same; a martial arts expert who dabbles in organized crime.

Technogeek29
09-30-2016, 01:54 AM
Found that for dirt at an old comic shop in my hometown.

Utrommaniac
09-30-2016, 02:09 AM
Lieutenants have various places the hierarchy depending on what kind of (usually military) group it is.

From Wikipedia
"A lieutenant (abbreviated Lt., LT, LTA, Lieut., LEUT and LEUT.) is a junior commissioned officer in many nations' armed forces, fire service or police.

The meaning of lieutenant differs in different military formations (see comparative military ranks), but is often subdivided into senior (first lieutenant) and junior (second lieutenant) ranks. In navies it is often equivalent to the army rank of captain; it may also indicate a particular post rather than a rank. The rank is also used in fire services, emergency medical services, security services and police forces.

Lieutenant may also appear as part of a title used in various other organizations with a codified command structure. It often designates someone who is "second-in-command," and as such, may precede the name of the rank directly above it. For example, a "lieutenant master" is likely to be second-in-command to the "master" in an organization using both ranks.

I would say too many henchmen. Tiger Claw is the only one fully expressed as being a "second in command", and does his share in enforcing the others while Shredder is not present.

Xav
09-30-2016, 04:21 AM
Rahzar formerly Dogpound, formerly Chris Bradford is a martial arts superstar. It's unknown what connection he holds to the Shredder, but it's implied that he may have been a student of the Shredder.It's more than implied. Shredder flat out calls him his student.

WebLurker
10-03-2016, 10:29 PM
I don't think there are too many. Now, Fishface and Dogpound/Rahzar have been given less of a spotlight in recent seasons, but some episodes have used all them working together in some capacity.

I like the variety, personally.

Coola Yagami
10-03-2016, 10:32 PM
I like shredder having several henchmen and not just 1 or 2. It also makes sense to have more than 2 when you're taking on 4 mutant turtles.

PApagreg
10-03-2016, 10:41 PM
I like shredder having several henchmen and not just 1 or 2. It also makes sense to have more than 2 when you're taking on 4 mutant turtles.

When you can already take said turtles have an army of ninjas then having 6 officers are kinda overkill

Allio
10-03-2016, 11:03 PM
Isn't Tigerclaw like the only one that is a threat?

Coola Yagami
10-03-2016, 11:03 PM
When you can already take said turtles have an army of ninjas then having 6 officers are kinda overkill

True.... but clever villains go all out overkill. Bowser doesn't send a Goomba after Mario, he sends an all out army of Koopas and Goombas and who knows what else.

PApagreg
10-03-2016, 11:39 PM
True.... but clever villains go all out overkill. Bowser doesn't send a Goomba after Mario, he sends an all out army of Koopas and Goombas and who knows what else.

I'm mostly talking about it as a writing standpoint, in universe it makes since but as a writing standpoint it feels like the writers are just giving Shredder mutants without thinking what the hell they are actually going to do with them

Powder
10-04-2016, 12:27 AM
They're there to give the turtles an enemy, & to sell toys. They don't have to be anything more than that.

PApagreg
10-04-2016, 01:04 AM
They're there to give the turtles an enemy, & to sell toys. They don't have to be anything more than that.

I am so glad most cartoonist don't have your attitude when it comes to writing characters

Fishface
10-04-2016, 07:55 AM
Isn't Tigerclaw like the only one that is a threat?

Not exactly, apart from Bradford in some cases, I would say Stockman is a big threat as well. His new abilities as a mutant are pretty powerful and he could create a lot of different things for the Shredder in the future.

TMNTInsighter
10-04-2016, 09:51 AM
I'm mostly talking about it as a writing standpoint, in universe it makes since but as a writing standpoint it feels like the writers are just giving Shredder mutants without thinking what the hell they are actually going to do with them

On this part you're right. It started out good with Bradford and Xever as we got into their history at the beginning and their motivations for following Shredder. Bradford has always been one of Shredder's most loyal students and Xever (as shown in "Baxter's Gambit") was a street thief who got busted, was given another chance by Shredder, and feels he owes him his loyalty.
Tiger Claw, with what little we know about his vague backstory, seems more like someone looking for a purpose. And the Shredder has given it to him in perhaps his biggest contract ever. Who knows, serving Shredder outside his contract regarding the turtles & Splinter, may be a purpose in of itself as it gives TC someone and something to fight for/believe in...even despite their rocky moments such as Karai had while in his service too.
Stockman, Bebop, and Rocksteady; despite the latter's former association with Shredder, basically serve this guy out of fear. And given the fact that these characters have been used in other media, they might also be being used for nostalgia's sake.
After all of that is established however, the series going forward just doesn't seem to know what to do with them.

I am so glad most cartoonist don't have your attitude when it comes to writing characters

That part you're wrong! It really is all about toys and the money acquired from them. It's the reason shows like Spectacular Spider-Man and Young Justice got the axe just to name a couple. Oh sure, you'll occasionally get some who go for quality rather than the toy money like "Batman" or "Gargoyles" but surely, that thought is never too far away.

WebLurker
10-04-2016, 10:11 AM
On this part you're right. It started out good with Bradford and Xever as we got into their history at the beginning and their motivations for following Shredder. Bradford has always been one of Shredder's most loyal students and Xever (as shown in "Baxter's Gambit") was a street thief who got busted, was given another chance by Shredder, and feels he owes him his loyalty.
Tiger Claw, with what little we know about his vague backstory, seems more like someone looking for a purpose. And the Shredder has given it to him in perhaps his biggest contract ever. Who knows, serving Shredder outside his contract regarding the turtles & Splinter, may be a purpose in of itself as it gives TC someone and something to fight for/believe in...even despite their rocky moments such as Karai had while in his service too.
Stockman, Bebop, and Rocksteady; despite the latter's former association with Shredder, basically serve this guy out of fear. And given the fact that these characters have been used in other media, they might also be being used for nostalgia's sake.
After all of that is established however, the series going forward just doesn't seem to know what to do with them.

Well, Stockman invents stuff (he's figured out how to create mutagen and controlled mutations). Bebop and Rocksteady are additional muscle.



That part you're wrong! It really is all about toys and the money acquired from them. It's the reason shows like Spectacular Spider-Man and Young Justice got the axe just to name a couple. Oh sure, you'll occasionally get some who go for quality rather than the toy money like "Batman" or "Gargoyles" but surely, that thought is never too far away.

I thought the Spider-Man cartoon was canceled because the TV rights reverted to Disney/Marvel.

TMNTInsighter
10-04-2016, 10:13 AM
...
I thought the Spider-Man cartoon was canceled because the TV rights reverted to Disney/Marvel.

Well that may have been part of the reason.

PApagreg
10-04-2016, 11:08 AM
Well that may have been part of the reason.

I say its most of the reason I heard GLTAS and YJ got cancelled because of toy sales, SSP not so much. Also I don't really mind that creators want to sell toys more power to them but my problem is that they don't give any substance to their villains, when Ultimate Spiderman can give better characterization to their antagonists you know your show needs more improvement

TMNTInsighter
10-04-2016, 11:30 AM
No way! That show is bad all over!

WebLurker
10-05-2016, 08:55 AM
No way! That show is bad all over!

From what little I've seen of it, it's not awful, but it is more interested in the kooky superhero stuff, rather than Peter Parker's civilian life, which is a major reason I like the character. I have seen worse and some of the later stuff I've seen does seem better.

GoldMutant
10-17-2016, 01:03 PM
I'm aware of this thread being dead for about two weeks, but I do want to clarify the whole issue with Spectacular Spider-Man as I feel some misinterpret what occurred, or some people merely blame Disney/Sony (not saying anyone here does, though Sony is practically a joke as of late). I'm going mostly by memory so if I get any details incorrect, let me know; if I find any links, I'll edit them into the post. Either way:

The show was originally going to be reprised for an additional season; Greg Weisman of Gargoyles and Young Justice, who worked on this show, wanted it to be 65 episodes, or 13 episodes per season. However, during the time the show ran (in addition to Sony holding rights to the movies), Disney bought the Marvel property. Prior to Ultimate Spider-Man's conception, Disney wanted to continue the show when it aired on Disney XD as it had really good viewership. Where the issue came apart though was Sony possessed the rights to not only the movies, which resulted in the two Amazing films, but also Spectacular Spider-Man. Additionally, this cost Spider-Man from appearing on The Super Hero Squad Show, a kid-friendly Marvel show airing at the same time (he did appear in the games voiced by Josh Keaton though). Considering Disney would've had to pay a large sum of money to Sony to continue production, it was rejected and as a result, Spectacular Spider-Man was cancelled. The handling of the movies after Spider-Man 3 would also result in Spidey finally going to MCU due to the disappointing box office.

As for Ultimate Spider-Man, it's still rather the same: primarily an action show without much substance. I've seen the recent Symbiote arc that took place in season 4 (confirmed to be the final season ending next year) and it's still rather the same. The animation is good I'll admit and the show does introduce creations from recent Marvel stories, such as Anti-Venom, Miles Morales, loosely adapting Spider-Verse, hell it brings forth obscure characters like Morbius back. It's still not well executed for my tastes, but it does do some things right but not too much, especially coming from a Spider-Man fan like me.
_____________________________________________

Whoa, I went off topic, so as for the original discussion, I do have to agree. Obviously it's for merchandising, but I'd really love to dig deeper into Baxter, Xever and even Steranko. We know some details so head canon can play a factor here, but I'd love to see newer interactions between the group instead of just being villains. Although I do feel making them all three-dimensional at this point is near impossible, at the very least I'd be interested in seeing how some of these guys play off each other. Interactions such as Baxter and Tiger Claw, Bradford and Steranko, even Xever and Zeck would make for some interesting concepts rather than grouping either Zeck/Steranko or Bradford/Xever with Tiger Claw.

TMNTInsighter
10-17-2016, 02:03 PM
Good job GM. That was very insightful and, to the best of my knowledge, that was very accurate across the board.