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Andrew NDB
10-12-2016, 03:14 PM
http://www.wordsandpictures.org/images/musehistory/mainimage.jpg

I've always been curious... does anyone know the story behind why the Words & Pictures Museum went under in Northampton, MA? It opened in 1992 and closed in 1999, apparently becoming a Virtual Museum at that point (though when I look at this virtual museum on the site now it actually seems contrary to the idea of a museum, not containing any artwork and only links to other sites, many of which are broken).

I mean, was it a simple lack of money that grounded it? Was it made as a for-profit endeavor? Would seem strange, if so. Who is running it now? Does anyone think that when Michele Ivey opens her TMNT museum one day it might face similar hurdles?

snake
10-12-2016, 04:00 PM
Does anyone think that when Michele Ivey opens her TMNT museum one day it might face similar hurdles?

Okay, made me laugh

Vegita-San
10-12-2016, 06:35 PM
http://www.wordsandpictures.org/images/musehistory/mainimage.jpg

I've always been curious... does anyone know the story behind why the Words & Pictures Museum went under in Northampton, MA? It opened in 1992 and closed in 1999, apparently becoming a Virtual Museum at that point (though when I look at this virtual museum on the site now it actually seems contrary to the idea of a museum, not containing any artwork and only links to other sites, many of which are broken).

I mean, was it a simple lack of money that grounded it? Was it made as a for-profit endeavor? Would seem strange, if so. Who is running it now? Does anyone think that when Michele Ivey opens her TMNT museum one day it might face similar hurdles?

I only went there once, I think.

It was a neat atmosphere and a fun setup.

With my favorite floor, as I recall, being this one cause of the cool statues and art board.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6096/6409847885_010767945f_b.jpg

My guess would be lack of funds. although I wonder if there was any real long term goal for thep lace to begin with.

I see ShellBacks is closing also. Although that one was WAY too far for a visit.

Jephael
10-12-2016, 06:49 PM
Am I the only one who feels a little creeped out by those statues made to resemble the second movie costumes? I dunno why, but their expressions always tend to unnerve me.

thundermaster612
10-12-2016, 06:59 PM
I only went there once, I think.

It was a neat atmosphere and a fun setup.

With my favorite floor, as I recall, being this one cause of the cool statues and art board.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6096/6409847885_010767945f_b.jpg

My guess would be lack of funds. although I wonder if there was any real long term goal for thep lace to begin with.

I see ShellBacks is closing also. Although that one was WAY too far for a visit.

That actually looks really cool, eyes could be changed a little bit though

plastroncafe
10-12-2016, 07:07 PM
Someone I knew in undergrad gave me a free ticket to go, but I never made it out there. Damn shame, really.

Powder
10-12-2016, 07:12 PM
Mildly relevant, what's the deal with this Venus statue? Seems to be in the style of those other statues, was she an addition made for the museum during TNM's run? I've not seen pictures of her "in use", just these sort of warehouse shots all these years later.

http://i67.tinypic.com/erl6c2.jpg

CyberCubed
10-12-2016, 07:14 PM
Kevin looks pretty aged in that pic, so it definitely doesn't look like its from 1997-1998.

Powder
10-12-2016, 08:25 PM
I sincerely hope this is your master troll efforts at work.

The photo is recent, the statue is old.

Andrew NDB
10-12-2016, 11:40 PM
But really... I'm curious about the genesis and long term plan of this. Was it at any point intended to be for-profit (and if not why did it still go under?)? When you walk in the doors (when it was open) do you have to pay money to putz around in it?

pferreira
10-13-2016, 08:55 AM
I mean, was it a simple lack of money that grounded it? Was it made as a for-profit endeavor? Would seem strange, if so. Who is running it now? Does anyone think that when Michele Ivey opens her TMNT museum one day it might face similar hurdles?The best person to ask about all that is Michelle Ivey. She made videos covering the place on her YT channel, I take it that she visited quite regularly. She's the person for your info. :)

mrmaczaps
10-13-2016, 10:08 AM
I only went there once, I think.

It was a neat atmosphere and a fun setup.

With my favorite floor, as I recall, being this one cause of the cool statues and art board.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6096/6409847885_010767945f_b.jpg

My guess would be lack of funds. although I wonder if there was any real long term goal for thep lace to begin with.

I see ShellBacks is closing also. Although that one was WAY too far for a visit.

Shellback is Wells, Maine... not that far from Northampton, Mass... Sadly it won't matter after Saturday...

Leo is disproportionately larger than the other Turtles... and will have a new home soon. Don't know if Steve has sold Raph or Don yet though... he is keeping Mikey.

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 10:48 AM
I wonder why they chose to make statues out of the 1990/1991 movie Turtles for the Words & Pictures Museum. They are neither indicative of words or pictures. Not to be a Mirage snob, but this is one time/place where it really should have been Mirage TMNT statues.

mrmaczaps
10-13-2016, 11:26 AM
I wonder why they chose to make statues out of the 1990/1991 movie Turtles for the Words & Pictures Museum. They are neither indicative of words or pictures. Not to be a Mirage snob, but this is one time/place where it really should have been Mirage TMNT statues.

I agree with this... I don't know anything about the museum though other than its where the Turtles statues came from....

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 11:44 AM
Mildly relevant, what's the deal with this Venus statue? Seems to be in the style of those other statues, was she an addition made for the museum during TNM's run? I've not seen pictures of her "in use", just these sort of warehouse shots all these years later.

http://i67.tinypic.com/erl6c2.jpg

It looks like Venus ran into Vlad the Impaler.

Jephael
10-13-2016, 01:44 PM
I wonder why they chose to make statues out of the 1990/1991 movie Turtles for the Words & Pictures Museum. They are neither indicative of words or pictures. Not to be a Mirage snob, but this is one time/place where it really should have been Mirage TMNT statues.

Well to be fair, they could've gone with the Archie comics as well, though I'm guessing since the movies were such a big hit at the time that's what they went with, knowing it would draw a larger crowd. Also lets face it, casual fans who don't know squat about the comics would be whining that they're all wearing red bandanas.

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 01:49 PM
Well to be fair, they could've gone with the Archie comics as well

That wouldn't be terribly unfair, I guess. If bizarre.

casual fans who don't know squat about the comics would be whining that they're all wearing red bandanas.

But... it's a museum. It's not there for "casual fans" or "hardcore fans" or really... any fans at all. It's to preserve and celebrate history of art, of which Mirage TMNT is the pillar of in terms of TMNT.

Jephael
10-13-2016, 01:59 PM
It's not there for "casual fans" or "hardcore fans" or really... any fans at all. It's to preserve and celebrate history of art, of which Mirage TMNT is the pillar of in terms of TMNT.

Wouldn't bring in much of a crowd with such a limited demographic though, unfortunately. Though now that I think about it, they could've done what we sorta tried to do in Delieverance and showcase all different medias and have each Turtle be from a different interpretation.

plastroncafe
10-13-2016, 02:02 PM
It didn't bring in much of a crowd to begin with, which is why it's closed.
Though I'm sure that had more to do with the location of the museum than anything.

North Hampton is a nice place, but it's not exactly a bustling metropolis.
They were trying to make a smaller version of MoCCA.

CyberCubed
10-13-2016, 02:12 PM
I think people really overestimate the interest the general public has in visiting a TMNT museum, much less paying for a ticket to get in. You would never be able to pay the rent to keep the place running.

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 02:33 PM
I think people really overestimate the interest the general public has in visiting a TMNT museum, much less paying for a ticket to get in. You would never be able to pay the rent to keep the place running.

Michele has found a way to do it.
http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/2014/04/super-fan-michele-ivey-worlds-biggest-ninja-turtles-fan/

"When I came up with the idea of doing a Museum, which is my dream for this collection, I started to collect a little bit of everything, including the small stuff I wouldn’t buy before. [It is] just [so that I can] share it all"

Powder
10-13-2016, 03:23 PM
Ha Ha Ha.

:blanksta:

Jephael
10-13-2016, 03:55 PM
Everybody's gotta have a dream. Mine's to make it as a TV producer/director and marry Anna Kendrick.

CyberCubed
10-13-2016, 03:57 PM
Typically if you don't make it big when you're in your 20's, the chances of success are far lower as you get older. Remember, 40 is considered "over the hill" in Hollywood.

Jephael
10-13-2016, 04:00 PM
Typically if you don't make it big when you're in your 20's, the chances of success are far lower as you get older. Remember, 40 is considered "over the hill" in Hollywood.

Well I should clarify I plan on being involved in the animation industry, which kinda follows its own rules. Plus I've got a good writing partner and we're bouncing lots of great ideas off one another. Seth MacFarlane didn't come out with Family Guy until he was close to our age!

Roseangelo
10-13-2016, 06:19 PM
W&P was basically self-funded by Kevin Eastman, and had the intention of being a way for him to share the artwork he had collected. Turtles and other things. It closed because the money just wasn't there.

And yes, the Venus statue was added in 1997 to coincide with The Next Mutation.

I did some contract work with a small local museum for about a year, about five years ago. It was a very interesting experience to see how things ran. But the place suffered from lack of attendance and funding (and still does). Really, for a museum to be able to support itself, it really has to offer and outstanding experience that appeals to a large chunk of the general population. And, frankly, no fan collection museum can do that.

There are two really good examples of how to build and operate a fan museum that I am aware of.

There is Steve Sansweet's Star Wars collection, which is privately funded and housed at his Rancho Obi-Wan location. Tours are given privately, require membership, and start at $60/person on top of the membership fee.
http://www.ranchoobiwan.org

And then there's the Rainbow Land Museum of Rainbow Brite memorabilia. A woman in North Carolina has built this into her house and provides free tours on appointment.
http://www.rainbowbrite.net/collect/museum/

Here's a video tour of her museum:
SPK5I-CwOII

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 07:09 PM
W&P was basically self-funded by Kevin Eastman, and had the intention of being a way for him to share the artwork he had collected. Turtles and other things. It closed because the money just wasn't there.

And yes, the Venus statue was added in 1997 to coincide with The Next Mutation.

I did some contract work with a small local museum for about a year, about five years ago. It was a very interesting experience to see how things ran. But the place suffered from lack of attendance and funding (and still does). Really, for a museum to be able to support itself, it really has to offer and outstanding experience that appeals to a large chunk of the general population. And, frankly, no fan collection museum can do that.

There are two really good examples of how to build and operate a fan museum that I am aware of.

There is Steve Sansweet's Star Wars collection, which is privately funded and housed at his Rancho Obi-Wan location. Tours are given privately, require membership, and start at $60/person on top of the membership fee.
http://www.ranchoobiwan.org

And then there's the Rainbow Land Museum of Rainbow Brite memorabilia. A woman in North Carolina has built this into her house and provides free tours on appointment.
http://www.rainbowbrite.net/collect/museum/

Here's a video tour of her museum:
SPK5I-CwOII

Which route do you think Michele will take for her museum?

Roseangelo
10-13-2016, 07:13 PM
Which route do you think Michele will take for her museum?

The one where she rents commercial/retail space and loses all money that goes into it and then uses Kickstarter to beg people to keep supporting it while never selling/sacrificing anything herself.

Andrew NDB
10-13-2016, 07:14 PM
The one where she rents commercial/retail space and loses all money that goes into it.

Do you think she could keep a Kickstarter going to keep it alive, like when she lost her house or had the physical condition?

Roseangelo
10-13-2016, 07:17 PM
Do you think she could keep a Kickstarter going to keep it alive, like when she lost her house or had the physical condition?

I did a quick edit and got ahead of you there. ^_^

The one where she rents commercial/retail space and loses all money that goes into it and then uses Kickstarter to beg people to keep supporting it while never selling/sacrificing anything herself.

Vegita-San
10-13-2016, 08:02 PM
Michele has found a way to do it.
http://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/2014/04/super-fan-michele-ivey-worlds-biggest-ninja-turtles-fan/

"When I came up with the idea of doing a Museum, which is my dream for this collection, I started to collect a little bit of everything, including the small stuff I wouldn’t buy before. [It is] just [so that I can] share it all"

Everyone needs a dream, and i hope this one comes true.

but it needs to be in the proper place to attract longrange attention. if nick plans on owning tmnt for a long time to come, maybe somewhere near nick studios...

Vegita-San
10-13-2016, 08:04 PM
Well I should clarify I plan on being involved in the animation industry, which kinda follows its own rules. Plus I've got a good writing partner and we're bouncing lots of great ideas off one another. Seth MacFarlane didn't come out with Family Guy until he was close to our age!


I'd love to try and get into animation myself, but even if I had the talent for it, which I don't and never will, I don't want to move to CA to pursue it.

mrmaczaps
10-13-2016, 08:06 PM
Everybody's gotta have a dream. Mine's to make it as a TV producer/director and marry Anna Kendrick.

You can't have Kendrick... lol

funatic
10-15-2016, 10:05 AM
I unfortunately moved to the Northampton area just a few years after it closed its doors. I hear bits and pieces about it here and there. Before (or maybe after?) it was on Main Street it was in a much larger space down the block. The owner of one of the LCSs here said he was in charge of Batmobile security when it was loaned temporarily to the museum. :trazz: I guess when it moved to Main St Kevin had gargoyles installed into the facade which upset some of the locals. They took the biggest one down after it closed but there's still a few little goyles above what's now an AT&T. :tlol: When I met Michelle at Shellback a few years back she directed me to her comprehensive tours of the space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsh-Vuh00G4

nellyp
10-16-2016, 09:46 PM
Do you think she could keep a Kickstarter going to keep it alive, like when she lost her house or had the physical condition?

Andrew's sarcasm is so subtle that I usually can't tell if he is trolling or being sincere but it's refreshing. :P

sdp
10-16-2016, 10:32 PM
This thread was cracking me up but to be a little more serious I almost want to feel sorry for Michele if she weren't so self-centered. Here we have a person who is obviously out of touch with reality and yet she uses any pity to her advantage making her extremely unlikable.


It should be a hint that if a Star Wars museum is not possible, I mean Steve Sansweet is flippin' rich so he's able to afford it but then no other franchise can. Hell the TMNT fandom is so little that we don't even have conventions, even Power Rangers/Godzilla/He-Man have conventions because of their larger fandoms. TMNT was bigger than those franchises the problem is it didn't generate as many hardcore fans, TMNT still has more fans than any of those but they're all "casual" fans. I do think a TMNT convention could be possible and a success even with the above mentioned.

Powder
10-16-2016, 10:38 PM
TMNT was bigger than those franchises the problem is it didn't generate as many hardcore fans, TMNT still has more fans than any of those but they're all "casual" fans.

I think about this a lot. It's weird, right? Why do you think that is?

CyberCubed
10-16-2016, 11:17 PM
Probably because TMNT existed before the internet and social media. Mirage/original cartoon/90's fans all grew up before sharing your love for franchises on the internet was a thing. And then the 2k3 series just wasn't popular enough outside of hardcore fans.

The Nick TMNT fandom might be very different given it has a huge following on tumblr, deviantart, twitter and such. Maybe when all the Nick fans become adults they'll have conventions years after the show ends.

Powder
10-16-2016, 11:51 PM
If that were true, all other fandoms from that time would be like ours. But as sdp says, that of He-Man & the like are significantly larger.

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 06:23 AM
You people are just nasty depressing sons of guns sometimes.

mrmaczaps
10-17-2016, 08:19 AM
Now, see... I was thinking we Turtles fans COULD have our own Convention... But it would be a New England thing and you would all have to come to my neck of the woods. Lol

We set it up with Steve (or through him) and then he can plead with Peter to come out and dust off his sketching hand and invite all the Turtles cosplay folks... Maybe a parade of characters and then invite all the Nick folks, all the Mirage guys and then the voice people... But the fans would really have to Shell out for tix and show up.

Jephael
10-17-2016, 11:50 AM
You people are just nasty depressing sons of guns sometimes.

http://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg

d_osborn
10-17-2016, 12:01 PM
Yeah, for the most part, small museums located in non-touristy areas don't do well. It's a passion project, but just not a financially viable business model. Collection blogs are the way to go. Low cost, accessibility to your demo, you get content out there, did I mention LOW COST? Learn how to photograph items, basic template web design, articles, throw in a few interviews with artists/fans, this stuff basically writes itself. If THAT alone sounds daunting, then opening/operating a full-time museum is simply out of the cards.

You people are just nasty depressing sons of guns sometimes.
HA! Neil's complaining about people being negative now. :lol:

plastroncafe
10-17-2016, 12:05 PM
Now, see... I was thinking we Turtles fans COULD have our own Convention... But it would be a New England thing and you would all have to come to my neck of the woods. Lol

We set it up with Steve (or through him) and then he can plead with Peter to come out and dust off his sketching hand and invite all the Turtles cosplay folks... Maybe a parade of characters and then invite all the Nick folks, all the Mirage guys and then the voice people... But the fans would really have to Shell out for tix and show up.

I think you mean we could have another convention, because we had one in 1992. Portsmouth, NH.

(I really should scan my pics from that day...)

sdp
10-17-2016, 12:36 PM
I think about this a lot. It's weird, right? Why do you think that is?

I'm as clueleess as you, I've thought of a few reasons over the years but yet I find other fandoms that prove those theories wrong.

Maybe there was never a strong website for all fans to congregate in, the fans are there just not in one place they all discuss TMNT in their respective fandom?

Maybe the 80s kids were too old and 90s kids too young to to really love TMNT as much as other shows that 80s kids had seen before and 90s got later? Not many franchises have the whole two generations of fans like the OT did but I'm sure there's another franchise that has a larger fandom.

The-Shredder
10-17-2016, 01:56 PM
I'm as clueleess as you, I've thought of a few reasons over the years but yet I find other fandoms that prove those theories wrong.

Maybe there was never a strong website for all fans to congregate in, the fans are there just not in one place they all discuss TMNT in their respective fandom?

Maybe the 80s kids were too old and 90s kids too young to to really love TMNT as much as other shows that 80s kids had seen before and 90s got later? Not many franchises have the whole two generations of fans like the OT did but I'm sure there's another franchise that has a larger fandom.

I think it's because that up until recently, TMNT had always been owned by Mirage Studios, a small independent company, and thus didn't have the large corporate backing and deals that other franchises had to consistently be successful and commercialized. Lucasfilm and Marvel had large corporations backing them in distributing their films and merchandise, even before they were merged with Disney, but they also have a ton of variety in terms of characters, vehicles, and environments, so it might also be more of TMNT's creative limitations that affects its cash flow and exposure.

snake
10-17-2016, 02:04 PM
I think it comes down to the fact that most of tmnt is more of the same. Not saying it negatively, but most incarnations follow the same plot beats and characters. That's just my theory, but there's something about TMNT that doesn't attract a large amount of hardcore fans. I'd even say that a signifigant portion of the fanbase is in it for the action figures.

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 02:07 PM
Yeah, for the most part, small museums located in non-touristy areas don't do well. It's a passion project, but just not a financially viable business model. Collection blogs are the way to go. Low cost, accessibility to your demo, you get content out there, did I mention LOW COST? Learn how to photograph items, basic template web design, articles, throw in a few interviews with artists/fans, this stuff basically writes itself. If THAT alone sounds daunting, then opening/operating a full-time museum is simply out of the cards.


HA! Neil's complaining about people being negative now. :lol:

leave me alone dude.... now i've got to block you on here too..

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 02:10 PM
http://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg

and that's coming from me saying that.


If even I find it depressing, you know it's true.

Andrew NDB
10-17-2016, 02:11 PM
I think it comes down to the fact that most of tmnt is more of the same.

For me, yeah. The questions that can be asked of new incarnations extend about as far as, "Hm, I wonder what Bebop's new origin will be in this one" or "Hm, I wonder how the Technodrome will get built this time around."

Lame. Lame. Lame.

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 02:32 PM
that's because they are too afraid to go beyond fred wolf incarnations.

They know that for the most part, this is a safe bet.


IDW is the first version to go BEYOND Fred Wolf with something truly different and make it work.

I was resistant to the re-incarnation bit at first, now i like it. i was shocked at the hun/casey connection, now it's twisted nature is kind of awesome. splinter as leader of the footclan again is kind of whacked, but it's a nice evolution of him that gives him something useful to do...

most other tmnt media don't wnt to take chances like that and don't have anyone around with the vision about the property as a whole in order to plan it.

In this day and age of multiverse crap, you can't really like from one and one area only. it doesn't really work that way anymore sadly.

Although i think time has come for a purley mirage take. it's not all that different from the others, just a tad more real world.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
10-17-2016, 02:39 PM
IDW is the first version to go BEYOND Fred Wolf with something truly different and make it work..

While we seem to share pretty similar hatred and taste, I gotta disagree with that.

Archie went beyond Fred Wolf, even though it was based in it.
4Kids didn't touch anything Fred Wolf with a ten-foot bo staff.
Nick stayed pretty distant from Fred Wolf, though it's made some pretty big errors on its own.
Even The Next Mutation was quite distant from Fred Wolf, though with little success.

Andrew NDB
10-17-2016, 02:41 PM
Nick stayed pretty distant from Fred Wolf

You're kidding me.

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 02:53 PM
While we seem to share pretty similar hatred and taste, I gotta disagree with that.

Archie went beyond Fred Wolf, even though it was based in it.
4Kids didn't touch anything Fred Wolf with a ten-foot bo staff.
Nick stayed pretty distant from Fred Wolf, though it's made some pretty big errors on its own.
Even The Next Mutation was quite distant from Fred Wolf, though with little success.


I havn't read archie, but from what little i remember, I do think it went off on it's own after a while, so i might have to agree with that.

4Kids did give us turtles forever, but other than that, true.

We don't talk about next mutation :).

But I will disagree with Nick. Mutagen Man. Slash. Mondo Gecko. The Turtle Van. The Technodrome. Bebop and Rocksteady..Wingnut and Screwloose. I think i'm forgetting a few :)

Andrew NDB
10-17-2016, 03:04 PM
I havn't read archie, but from what little i remember, I do think it went off on it's own after a while

Fairly early on. But it still maintained a Fred Wolf chassis.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
10-17-2016, 03:06 PM
You're kidding me.

It did new ideas that worked well (sometimes) and were fresh spins. The Kraang as a collective of hostile aliens infiltrating society, the Turtles as actual believable teenagers, Splinter having a biological daughter Miwa who turned out to be Karai who was kidnapped and raised by Shredder...

Yeah, those three major plot points are huge departures from Fred Wolf and "familiar" TMNT. That's my criteria. I have very little fondness for the actual Nick TMNT show, but it did do some original and new stuff, and I appreciate it.

As opposed to the Bay movies, which do absolutely NOTHING ELSE but skate by on Fred Wolf familiarity.

The Turtles and Splinter know karate! How? Um... a book.
Shredder and Splinter are archenemies! Why? Um... because.
The Turtles have a van! Why? Um... don't you remember playing with the toy?
Krang works with Shredder! Why? Um... because.


I havn't read archie, but from what little i remember, I do think it went off on it's own after a while, so i might have to agree with that.

4Kids did give us turtles forever, but other than that, true.

We don't talk about next mutation :).

But I will disagree with Nick. Mutagen Man. Slash. Mondo Gecko. The Turtle Van. The Technodrome. Bebop and Rocksteady..Wingnut and Screwloose. I think i'm forgetting a few :)

Ah, yes, well... I'd forgotten about "Turtles Forever." I'll give you that, but it was the absolute end of the 4Kids (by that point, terrible) run.

This is the 'Drome. We're the only ones who WILL talk about Next Mutation. :twink:

Nick started strong and unique, but (as an outsider observer) it seems like the Fred Wolf characters came fast and furious in the last two seasons especially: Mona Lisa, the Punk Frogs, Bebop and Rocksteady IN NAME ONLY, Mutagen Man, Baxter the Fly, Mondo Gecko, etc etc.

But I give it credit for a strong start. As opposed to, say, IDW, which actually started having many more ties to Fred Wolf (Neutrinos and Krang especially) but then expanded to be much more its own thing.

CyberCubed
10-17-2016, 03:20 PM
I don't like the way the conversation in this thread is heading.

Powder
10-17-2016, 03:24 PM
I think it's because that up until recently, TMNT had always been owned by Mirage Studios, a small independent company, and thus didn't have the large corporate backing and deals that other franchises had to consistently be successful and commercialized.

While it's true that they were owned by Mom & Dad, so to speak, you're really off mark here. They had live musical tours, an MGM/Disney studios "stage" production, celebrity songs/cameos, games & movies sponsored by Pizza Hut/Dominoes, virtually every prominent food brand had a TMNT version of their product, in at least the FW series' hey-dey, they had that very same corporate power. Obviously that didn't go for the comics, Next Mutation, 4kids, but the masses were luke warm on those anyway, it wouldn't have helped.

I think it comes down to the fact that most of tmnt is more of the same. Not saying it negatively, but most incarnations follow the same plot beats and characters.

I'd even say that a signifigant portion of the fanbase is in it for the action figures.

I guess you could argue that, but you could also argue the opposite. Think about how many casuals are pissy entitled little diaperheads who refuse to humor any iteration that isn't a 1:1 match for the original cartoon.

& yeah, that's true, for sure. They might have better numbers/interest if Playmates had been consistently good after that first run.

leave me alone dude.... now i've got to block you on here too..

Don't be so negative!

Vegita-San
10-17-2016, 05:31 PM
Don't be so negative!

I'll give you that one. that was funny.

d_osborn
10-17-2016, 05:36 PM
leave me alone dude.... now i've got to block you on here too..
Go find your safe space, kid. :lol:

While it's true that they were owned by Mom & Dad, so to speak, you're really off mark here. They had live musical tours, an MGM/Disney studios "stage" production, celebrity songs/cameos, games & movies sponsored by Pizza Hut/Dominoes, virtually every prominent food brand had a TMNT version of their product, in at least the FW series' hey-dey, they had that very same corporate power.
This. Mirage was just as independent as Lucasfilm, pre-Disney buyout. Mark Freedman at Surge Licensing handled all of the Mirage licenses/merch.

mrmaczaps
10-17-2016, 05:52 PM
I think you mean we could have another convention, because we had one in 1992. Portsmouth, NH.

(I really should scan my pics from that day...)

Time to bring it back then... better, stronger than before! Lol

And in 1992, I was into Superman comics... or ones where he's dead and the storyline that brings him back...

d_osborn
10-17-2016, 09:57 PM
I think you mean we could have another convention, because we had one in 1992. Portsmouth, NH.

(I really should scan my pics from that day...)
Scans would be cool to see!

myconius
10-18-2016, 10:12 PM
It looks like Venus ran into Vlad the Impaler.

oh how i wish! :lol:

pferreira
10-20-2016, 10:07 AM
that's because they are too afraid to go beyond fred wolf incarnations.

I think it's just a case of waiting a number of years for the 4Kids and Nick cartoon to get more into the mainstream media.


4Kids didn't touch anything Fred Wolf with a ten-foot bo staff.
Turtles Forever? Cowabunga? Multi-coloured bandanas?



Don't be so negative!Very funny, are you here all week? :lol:

I don't like the way the conversation in this thread is heading.Why do you say that?

Vegita-San
10-24-2016, 09:38 AM
I think it's just a case of waiting a number of years for the 4Kids and Nick cartoon to get more into the mainstream media.

How do you say that?


I dunno about nick, but 4kids is almost 13 years old now from when it started. if it hadn't found it now, it sadly probably never will.

I'm glad the IDW people though started to implement them into their series FAR better than the nick series did. they have a REAL Hun where as nick has a jackie chan rip off...

Maybe he's worried people will start talking about how much they love nostrils on turtles ;o)...

Vegita-San
10-24-2016, 10:28 AM
oh how i wish! :lol:


I'll be the devils advocate here.

The IDEA of venus wasn't bad.

I could have done without the boobs on the suit.. and the fact that she had to be a romantic interest from the start.

but the idea of a turtle trained in magic instead of ninjas is an interesting concept.

slashpieturtlemix
10-27-2016, 12:14 PM
I would love the idea of a real museum but it could only partially focus on toys and merchandise. It would need to focus on the comics, the themes and how the characters changed over the years. Sadly one fan would not be able to pull off anything epic enough to make that work.

The convention would be amazing. Someone needs to step up for that lol I would totally go every year! G I Joe has one and that is the deadest franchise ever in my opinion.

Jephael
10-29-2016, 07:17 PM
I would love the idea of a real museum but it could only partially focus on toys and merchandise. It would need to focus on the comics, the themes and how the characters changed over the years. Sadly one fan would not be able to pull off anything epic enough to make that work.

The convention would be amazing. Someone needs to step up for that lol I would totally go every year! G I Joe has one and that is the deadest franchise ever in my opinion.

I've offered to assist Ivey in her endeavors, not just with the museum itself but also with Cowabunga Corner. She made it crystal clear that she already has her own little "brain trust" helping her with all these plans of hers. I wish her the best in seeing it come to fruition.

neatoman
10-30-2016, 05:38 AM
Turtles Forever? Cowabunga? Multi-coloured bandanas?


Well, as I remember Cowabunga was basically used as a punchline rather than a catchphrase, and the multi-colored masks were probably just a demand from Playmates everyone found agreeable, because it such a minor change to begin with.

They wouldn't really do anything more substantial before Turtles Forever like use Krang or make April a news reporter, unless it was for the purpose of making fun of it of course.

pferreira
11-03-2016, 12:41 PM
and the multi-colored masks were probably just a demand from Playmates everyone found agreeable, because it such a minor change to begin with.

You know what was another minor change? Moving the Turtles into colour. We take it for granted but the Turtles could have always remained in b/w. The multi-coloured masks was as big a change as the Turtles themselves were being in colour, they could have easily had them in the Fred Wolf series just wearing red bandanas like in the colour Mirage reprints before that. It was a change introduced into the FW series that was used again in various media and animation afterwards so that kids could tell the difference. Yes, it was a big change definitely.

neatoman
11-03-2016, 01:56 PM
You know what was another minor change? Moving the Turtles into colour. We take it for granted but the Turtles could have always remained in b/w. The multi-coloured masks was as big a change as the Turtles themselves were being in colour, they could have easily had them in the Fred Wolf series just wearing red bandanas like in the colour Mirage reprints before that. It was a change introduced into the FW series that was used again in various media and animation afterwards so that kids could tell the difference. Yes, it was a big change definitely.

Are we really going to pretend this change didn't just happen because Playmates felt uncomfortable selling four basically identical toys, insisted on it for decades and everyone just went along with it because it really isn't that big of a deal?

Andrew NDB
11-03-2016, 02:48 PM
Are we really going to pretend this change didn't just happen because Playmates felt uncomfortable selling four basically identical toys, insisted on it for decades and everyone just went along with it because it really isn't that big of a deal?

Anything to justify blind nostalgia for crap that was awesome when we were 5 years-old, I guess.

neatoman
11-03-2016, 03:23 PM
Anything to justify blind nostalgia for crap that was awesome when we were 5 years-old, I guess.

I guess that too, it does fall in line with what he typically does.

pferreira
11-10-2016, 09:28 AM
Are we really going to pretend this change didn't just happen because Playmates felt uncomfortable selling four basically identical toys, insisted on it for decades and everyone just went along with it because it really isn't that big of a deal?But Playmates sold action figures at one point with red bandanas didn't they? Were they uncomfortable then? Face it, it was a change made for the FW cartoon which was then adopted.

Anything to justify blind nostalgia for crap that was awesome when we were 5 years-old, I guess.I don't have to justify anything, the show was good and still is. I'm just not a complete snob about the Turtles like you, thankfully. ;)

I guess that too, it does fall in line with what he typically does.Yet I don't troll the forum with frickin stupid posts about how David Wise stole from Superman, a character every writer has stolen from at some point!!! I know you're a fourteen year old but this kind of thing doesn't make you look any clever does it? :lol:

neatoman
11-10-2016, 10:16 AM
But Playmates sold action figures at one point with red bandanas didn't they? Were they uncomfortable then? Face it, it was a change made for the FW cartoon which was then adopted.

I don't have to justify anything, the show was good and still is. I'm just not a complete snob about the Turtles like you, thankfully. ;)

Yet I don't troll the forum with frickin stupid posts about how David Wise stole from Superman, a character every writer has stolen from at some point!!! I know you're a fourteen year old but this kind of thing doesn't make you look any clever does it? :lol:

You mean the Mirage toys released a couple of years ago? Those were made decades later for the sake of novelty, in how much denial are you? As for the Superman thing, it was just a thought I had and not accusation, you would understand that if you actually read what I posted.

As for calling me a fourteen year old trying to look clever, you're really going there? That sure is a grave accusation coming from someone whose sensibilities haven't changed since he was a prepubescent child, or is denial about having ever liked something simply because he was prepubescent child.

pferreira
11-10-2016, 11:39 AM
You mean the Mirage toys released a couple of years ago? Those were made decades later for the sake of novelty, in how much denial are you?Okay they were released a couple of years ago but they were still released right? I mean some fans at least bought them which is good right?

As for the Superman thing, it was just a thought I had and not accusation, you would understand that if you actually read what I posted.I did and it made no sense whatsoever! You think I'm weird except you're making crazy posts because you're on a mission to prove David Wise is an 'infamous recycling bin'. I'm sorry but your thread stretches credibility, it makes me laugh so you can't accuse me of jumping to a writer's defence over something that's grabbing at straws. :roll:

As for calling me a fourteen year old trying to look clever, you're really going there? That sure is a grave accusation coming from someone whose sensibilities haven't changed since he was a prepubescent child, or is denial about having ever liked something simply because he was prepubescent child.Bottom line is everyone should be tolerant of whatever Ninja Turtles stuff someone likes, doesn't matter what age you are. I apologise if I offended you for having a go at your age but you need to rise above that generation mentality and start acting a bit more mature to others. Just because I like the 80s series the best doesn't mean I wear rose tinted glasses all the time and it also doesn't mean I'm not a proper Turtles fan. The 80s series was good enough that people remember it more years later than just a half hour action comedy show. Besides sometimes, not always but sometimes nostalgia outshines what we have today in certain things. Please try to understand this.

Andrew NDB
11-10-2016, 11:41 AM
Bottom line is creative bankruptcy is awesome and en vogue, mumble mumble David Wise, the Fred Wolf show is so good, nostalgia is the ish, and everyone should think exactly like me on all of this!

I disagree.

neatoman
11-10-2016, 01:04 PM
Okay they were released a couple of years ago but they were still released right? I mean some fans at least bought them which is good right?

I did and it made no sense whatsoever! You think I'm weird except you're making crazy posts because you're on a mission to prove David Wise is an 'infamous recycling bin'. I'm sorry but your thread stretches credibility, it makes me laugh so you can't accuse me of jumping to a writer's defence over something that's grabbing at straws. :roll:

Bottom line is everyone should be tolerant of whatever Ninja Turtles stuff someone likes, doesn't matter what age you are. I apologise if I offended you for having a go at your age but you need to rise above that generation mentality and start acting a bit more mature to others. Just because I like the 80s series the best doesn't mean I wear rose tinted glasses all the time and it also doesn't mean I'm not a proper Turtles fan. The 80s series was good enough that people remember it more years later than just a half hour action comedy show. Besides sometimes, not always but sometimes nostalgia outshines what we have today in certain things. Please try to understand this.

For the love of god, you are the king of missing the point.

Okay they were released a couple of years ago but they were still released right? I mean some fans at least bought them which is good right?

That has nothing, literally nothing, to do with my point, how could you miss the point of such a simple statement? Those particular toys had a vastly different market in mind than those the FW cartoon was marketing, what is it that you don't understand about this?


I did and it made no sense whatsoever! You think I'm weird except you're making crazy posts because you're on a mission to prove David Wise is an 'infamous recycling bin'. I'm sorry but your thread stretches credibility, it makes me laugh so you can't accuse me of jumping to a writer's defence over something that's grabbing at straws. :roll:


I don't need to prove that David Wise is a recycle bin, everyone already knows that. What I was getting at, is that Wise claims he basically wrote Lois Lane when he wrote April, that made me see a bunch of similarities to Superman. That's it, you may not agree that it's similar but I never actually accused him of ripping off Superman.


Bottom line is everyone should be tolerant of whatever Ninja Turtles stuff someone likes, doesn't matter what age you are. I apologise if I offended you for having a go at your age but you need to rise above that generation mentality and start acting a bit more mature to others. Just because I like the 80s series the best doesn't mean I wear rose tinted glasses all the time and it also doesn't mean I'm not a proper Turtles fan. The 80s series was good enough that people remember it more years later than just a half hour action comedy show. Besides sometimes, not always but sometimes nostalgia outshines what we have today in certain things. Please try to understand this.

What you constantly fail to grasp, is that people don't necessarily remember something because it holds up decades later, but because they were children and thus had a much higher chance of having an impact.

When you're five years old Cowabunga and Pizza jokes might be the most awesome thing ever, because that stuff is really basic and you might not think you need much else. You're not really going to notice glaring flaws like the rushed animation or plotholes, because you're more focused on the concept than the content. When we grow up, what we grow up with doesn't typically hold up because we've changed. We all liked things that were not that good when we were kids, and that's OK. This is why, for example, Andrew doesn't like the Fred Wolf cartoon anymore, it's no longer appealing to his adult mind and that's fine. Other's will see the flaws but give them a pass because of their nostalgia, and as long as you admit it, that's fine too.

Most people don't seem to think the show holds up, again, totally fine because it doesn't! That doesn't really take away your good memories of it, and it's healthy to admit your nostalgia and quality are not the same thing.

What has me worried about you on the other hand, is that you seem to live in your own little world in which most people still love the show just as much as when they were kids, how it's this great timeless classic of a cartoon with amazing writers and everyone remembers it vividly, where anyone who disagrees with that is either a troll or a disgruntled fan of another version. I sincerely hope you're not like this regarding any other topics.

FredWolfLeonardo
11-10-2016, 01:23 PM
For the love of god, you are the king of missing the point.



That has nothing, literally nothing, to do with my point, how could you miss the point of such a simple statement? Those particular toys had a vastly different market in mind than those the FW cartoon was marketing, what is it that you don't understand about this?



I don't need to prove that David Wise is a recycle bin, everyone already knows that. What I was getting at, is that Wise claims he basically wrote Lois Lane when he wrote April, that made me see a bunch of similarities to Superman. That's it, you may not agree that it's similar but I never actually accused him of ripping off Superman.



What you constantly fail to grasp, is that people don't necessarily remember something because it holds up decades later, but because they were children and thus had a much higher chance of having an impact.

When you're five years old Cowabunga and Pizza jokes might be the most awesome thing ever, because that stuff is really basic and you might not think you need much else. You're not really going to notice glaring flaws like the rushed animation or plotholes, because you're more focused on the concept than the content. When we grow up, what we grow up with doesn't typically hold up because we've changed. We all liked things that were not that good when we were kids, and that's OK. This is why, for example, Andrew doesn't like the Fred Wolf cartoon anymore, it's no longer appealing to his adult mind and that's fine. Other's will see the flaws but give them a pass because of their nostalgia, and as long as you admit it, that's fine too.

Most people don't seem to think the show holds up, again, totally fine because it doesn't! That doesn't really take away your good memories of it, and it's healthy to admit your nostalgia and quality are not the same thing.

What has me worried about you on the other hand, is that you seem to live in your own little world in which most people still love the show just as much as when they were kids, how it's this great timeless classic of a cartoon with amazing writers and everyone remembers it vividly, where anyone who disagrees with that is either a troll or a disgruntled fan of another version. I sincerely hope you're not like this regarding any other topics.

Not everyone will share your views and expectations on what constitutes a "good" cartoon. As someone who didn't grow up with the FW cartoon, I now enjoy it alot after having watched almost all of it and Id say its easily the most entertaining and memorable version. Come at me with your "objective facts".

neatoman
11-10-2016, 02:13 PM
Not everyone will share you on your idealistic view on what constitutes a "good" cartoon. As someone who didn't grow up with the FW cartoon, I now enjoy it alot after having watched almost all of it and Id say its easily the most entertaining and memorable version. Come at me with your "objective facts".

Well, exceptions amongst people people who are older than a certain age are always going to exist for these sorts of things. Most people are not going fall for certain details when they're older than the target demographic, due to risen standards, but it still happens. I wonder why you think that though, I've never really seen you state why. With pferreira I think it's a misunderstanding of why it had such an impact and his inability to distinguish between nostalgic feelings and quality, not to mention his pathological denial that the show isn't as vividly remembered by other people, but I can't quite pinpoint why you think it's the best version of TMNT.

But fine, "objective facts" then? Believe it or not, while a lot comes down to subjective opinion there are still objective standards by which art can be judged. I don't really think anyone can really argue, for example, that animation errors in the middle of the screen are excusable, or that aliens showing up out of nowhere in the third act as the solution is good storytelling.

FredWolfLeonardo
11-10-2016, 02:50 PM
Are you kidding me? Animation errors and sudden alien invasions are awesome! It was fun to pick out all the animation errors in FW tmnt and made the show a whole lot more memorable and entertaining, not to mention the sudden aliens at the end of "The Ninja Sword of Nowhere" were utterly hilarious.

DestronMirage22
11-10-2016, 04:16 PM
Are you kidding me? Animation errors and sudden alien invasions are awesome! It was fun to pick out all the animation errors in FW tmnt and made the show a whole lot more memorable and entertaining, not to mention the sudden aliens at the end of "The Ninja Sword of Nowhere" were utterly hilarious.

I completely agree with you. Animation errors make the show more special, they provide a more memorable, humorous experience. Hence why a lot of people, myself included, still enjoy the original Transformers cartoon.

Vegita-San
11-10-2016, 04:36 PM
What you constantly fail to grasp, is that people don't necessarily remember something because it holds up decades later, but because they were children and thus had a much higher chance of having an impact.


Or, maybe, you know.

People just liked it then, and continue to like it now. and that's OK.

Some people hated it then, and hate it now, and that's OK too.

I find people use the 'nostalgia only' argument when it's something they personally do not like and are trying to demean the importance of.

neatoman
11-11-2016, 03:25 AM
Or, maybe, you know.

People just liked it then, and continue to like it now. and that's OK.

Some people hated it then, and hate it now, and that's OK too.

I find people use the 'nostalgia only' argument when it's something they personally do not like and are trying to demean the importance of.

I'm not really denying that it's important (but I don't think it's as important as he makes it out to be), or that some people may just like it aside from nostalgia (although I don't really understand why they would).

What I am arguing on the other hand, is that you can show almost anything to a child and they will have a stronger reaction to it than an adult would, regardless of what it is because that's just the way children are. The FW cartoon didn't really need to be good in order to grab children's attention, it just needed to be superficially different to turn some heads.

Vegita-San
11-11-2016, 09:14 AM
i have a feeling this is going to be another one of those loosing/pointless arguments...but one closing thing..

maybe because kids are open to more things? they arn't as jaded as adults are, so even if it's bad to us, kids will find something fun and colorful and exciting about it.

show them the same thing first time even 6 years later, it'll obviously get a different reaction.

And anyone who thinks the FW turtles wasn't important, is quite frankly deluding themselves. or a mirage elitist.

No one would really remember Mirage or the turtles after it ended except a handful of fans. thanks to the series, whether you liked it or not, that legacy, and the comics that created it, will now live on forever.

So, safe to say without Fred Wolf AND David Wise, we wouldn't be here today. no doubt about it.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-11-2016, 10:06 AM
Where would this forum be without the ongoing, never-ending Fred Wolf debate. :trolleye:

neatoman
11-11-2016, 10:39 AM
No one would really remember Mirage or the turtles after it ended except a handful of fans. thanks to the series, whether you liked it or not, that legacy, and the comics that created it, will now live on forever.


That's debatable, comparable comics still have a fanbase, so it's difficult to tell wheter or not a following would have existed today if the FW cartoon never existed.

Powder
11-11-2016, 10:49 AM
No one would really remember Mirage or the turtles after it ended except a handful of fans.

Get out of here with this BS argument. The only reason it got an animated series in the first place is because it was killing as a comic book. They were offered movie deals before the cartoon even existed. It was solely responsible for the "black & white boom", even! It sold tons, it had merch, they collaborated with prominent artists. Without the cartoon getting in the way, Pete & Kev would've continued churning out content themselves, & for all we know the Mirage timeline could still be running in the now, a highly respected young adult-aimed comic.

Would TMNT have the same legacy today without the FW 'toon? Probably not, no. But would it still have made its mark in the comics industry? Absofreakinglutely. It'd be at least on the same tier as Cerebus or Usagi, if not Hellboy. I will never deny that the OT absolutely made the TMNT what it is in the public eye, but anybody who thinks they'd not be anywhere without it can eat sewer apples.

Candy Kappa
11-11-2016, 11:13 AM
Mirage also had a strong following in the Palladium Pen & Paper tabletop, it lost it's steam because of the cartoon's popularity.

CyberCubed
11-11-2016, 11:41 AM
My guess is Mirage would have continued to 1995 as usual even without any cartoons/movies, then stopped. Then Peter would do one last hurrah in the early 2000's and then stop again.

Oh hey, that's exactly what happened.

neatoman
11-11-2016, 11:57 AM
My guess is Mirage would have continued to 1995 as usual even without any cartoons/movies, then stopped. Then Peter would do one last hurrah in the early 2000's and then stop again.

Oh hey, that's exactly what happened.

Pretty much, but there is also the possibility of a cartoon or movie hitting much later in the comic's lifespan. Hellboy was around for eleven years before the movie, and don't even get me started on more mainstream characters.

The bottomline is that is that while the FW cartoon was successful in it's day, saying that TMNT would have been forgotten if it wasn't made is to grossly underestimate Mirage. Plenty of indie comics do just fine without ever receiving adaptations, there's literally no real reason to assume the FW cartoon is the only thing that would have kept it popular.

Vegita-San
11-11-2016, 01:43 PM
Pretty much, but there is also the possibility of a cartoon or movie hitting much later in the comic's lifespan. Hellboy was around for eleven years before the movie, and don't even get me started on more mainstream characters.

The bottomline is that is that while the FW cartoon was successful in it's day, saying that TMNT would have been forgotten if it wasn't made is to grossly underestimate Mirage. Plenty of indie comics do just fine without ever receiving adaptations, there's literally no real reason to assume the FW cartoon is the only thing that would have kept it popular.

He probably wouldn't have had any money to do any future issues.

Mirage's run would have most likely stopped. maybe they would have printed a few trade paperbacks if there was enough interest. MAYBE some movie company might have found back issues and done something without their permission further down the line since mirage would have been disbanded.



I just don't see why so many people try to discontinue the cartoons legacy, just because it's something they don't like.

If it wasn't for the cartoon, I would NEVER have found and gotten in love with the original comics. the comics got a second and LONGER life thanks to the cartoon and new people getting into both.

Let us also not forget that everyone has been trying to recreate the success of the original series, not the mirage books.

minus, of course, the excellent 4 kids series which was good because it tried to be more of it's own thing and closer to the comics.

whether people like it or not, the series wouldn't be where it is today without FW coming at just the right time in marketing history to capitalize on it. it probably would have done less well if it came around in the mid 90s.

CyberCubed
11-11-2016, 02:25 PM
I think this thread has run its course and needs to be locked. You people are going in circles.

Powder
11-11-2016, 02:37 PM
He probably wouldn't have had any money to do any future issues.

Mirage's run would have most likely stopped. maybe they would have printed a few trade paperbacks if there was enough interest. MAYBE some movie company might have found back issues and done something without their permission further down the line since mirage would have been disbanded.



I just don't see why so many people try to discontinue the cartoons legacy, just because it's something they don't like.

If it wasn't for the cartoon, I would NEVER have found and gotten in love with the original comics. the comics got a second and LONGER life thanks to the cartoon and new people getting into both.

Let us also not forget that everyone has been trying to recreate the success of the original series, not the mirage books.

minus, of course, the excellent 4 kids series which was good because it tried to be more of it's own thing and closer to the comics.

whether people like it or not, the series wouldn't be where it is today without FW coming at just the right time in marketing history to capitalize on it. it probably would have done less well if it came around in the mid 90s.

Are you really that ignorant or are you trolling? Honest question.

Andrew NDB
11-11-2016, 03:58 PM
Get out of here with this BS argument. The only reason it got an animated series in the first place is because it was killing as a comic book. They were offered movie deals before the cartoon even existed. It was solely responsible for the "black & white boom", even! It sold tons, it had merch, they collaborated with prominent artists. Without the cartoon getting in the way, Pete & Kev would've continued churning out content themselves, & for all we know the Mirage timeline could still be running in the now, a highly respected young adult-aimed comic.

Would TMNT have the same legacy today without the FW 'toon? Probably not, no. But would it still have made its mark in the comics industry? Absofreakinglutely. It'd be at least on the same tier as Cerebus or Usagi, if not Hellboy. I will never deny that the OT absolutely made the TMNT what it is in the public eye, but anybody who thinks they'd not be anywhere without it can eat sewer apples.

I'd like to think that, unencumbered with all their dealings with SURGE and Playmates and Fred Wolf and all of that, Kevin and Peter would have had the time and energy to keep on plugging away at the Mirage comic with the same fervor they did in the first 11 issues. It would have slowly but surely developed its cult following into something much larger with time, with no childish connotations to the franchise found elsewhere. Then around the big comic book boom in the 2000s, it would almost certainly would have received a Hellboy-esque movie deal and treatment.

People look at the middling Mirage sales mid or late into the run and go, "Oh, well it wasn't selling great then, how would it have grown? The cartoon put TMNT on the map!!!" But they forget that a big part of why the comics never really soared after the first few smattering of issues... is that picking up a Mirage issue of TMNT to your average reader became kind of a taboo thing, an embarrassment in light of the cartoons and toys and all that. Once the original crop of readers dropped off, there wasn't a significant number of new readers to pick up the slack. These new folks, largely, wouldn't even give it a chance, even if an issue of Mirage TMNT was right next to an issue of X-Men. "Ehh... this is about those babyish Turtles with the cowabunga and the lame jokes, camp and sight gags? Pass." And why wouldn't they think that? The people I've "converted" into reading Mirage TMNT comics (I'm not talking about pre-existing hardcore fans of the cartoon, although some of them, too), it's a painstaking thing. I have to basically convince them it's nothing like the stigma they already have of TMNT in their mind (i.e., the "popularized" Fred Wolf TMNT), and even then they're more than a bit wary.

Vegita-San
11-11-2016, 06:33 PM
I'd like to think that, unencumbered with all their dealings with SURGE and Playmates and Fred Wolf and all of that, Kevin and Peter would have had the time and energy to keep on plugging away at the Mirage comic with the same fervor they did in the first 11 issues. It would have slowly but surely developed its cult following into something much larger with time, with no childish connotations to the franchise found elsewhere. Then around the big comic book boom in the 2000s, it would almost certainly would have received a Hellboy-esque movie deal and treatment.

People look at the middling Mirage sales mid or late into the run and go, "Oh, well it wasn't selling great then, how would it have grown? The cartoon put TMNT on the map!!!" But they forget that a big part of why the comics never really soared after the first few smattering of issues... is that picking up a Mirage issue of TMNT to your average reader became kind of a taboo thing, an embarrassment in light of the cartoons and toys and all that. Once the original crop of readers dropped off, there wasn't a significant number of new readers to pick up the slack. These new folks, largely, wouldn't even give it a chance, even if an issue of Mirage TMNT was right next to an issue of X-Men. "Ehh... this is about those babyish Turtles with the cowabunga and the lame jokes, camp and sight gags? Pass." And why wouldn't they think that? The people I've "converted" into reading Mirage TMNT comics (I'm not talking about pre-existing hardcore fans of the cartoon, although some of them, too), it's a painstaking thing. I have to basically convince them it's nothing like the stigma they already have of TMNT in their mind (i.e., the "popularized" Fred Wolf TMNT), and even then they're more than a bit wary.

I can't argue with the first paragraph. it's def in the realm of possibilities.
although who knows. the breakup could have happened much sooner cause they'd have more time to argue...

and I've had experience with the last paragraph. although the one issue I was reading at the time, that horrible mess called Bodycount was hardly the TMNT norm. They where literally shocked, as was I and I had long gotten used to Mirage norm at that point.

I just don't see why things can't co exist other than the fact that some people are into the more violent mirage stuff and anything else seriously turns them off for whatever reason.


I'd like to think that's what it all boils down too.

I try to like it all. Even though I got involved with FW first, I like 4 Kids MORE than fred wolf. That's the TMNT Series i was hoping FW would have evolved into a bit more.

While I like all three movies (even the third for daring to go beyond Shredder)...the first still remains my favorite.

I realize not everyone can like every iteration. I'm not a fan of Next Mutation, I'm not a fan of the new nick toon. But I can find something to like in ALL of the iterations.

Next Mutation had a cool new element to Splinter, with his Blind human friend playing games of chess. Bonesteel and the ape guy where cool.

Archie moving beyond and doing it's own thing was a neat diversion. even daring to go into the future.

Even the New Toon has awesome new Versions of Slash, Bebop and Rocksteady. and the new Splinter is a nice change of pace having him be a bit of an over confident jerk.



I don't see one as the end all be all and screw the rest.

pferreira
11-17-2016, 09:50 AM
I disagree.Amazing, maybe I have a poor memory but I don't remember when I said everything you just quoted.

That has nothing, literally nothing, to do with my point, how could you miss the point of such a simple statement? Those particular toys had a vastly different market in mind than those the FW cartoon was marketing, what is it that you don't understand about this?Different market? They were made to make money right?

I don't need to prove that David Wise is a recycle bin, everyone already knows that. What I was getting at, is that Wise claims he basically wrote Lois Lane when he wrote April, that made me see a bunch of similarities to Superman. That's it, you may not agree that it's similar but I never actually accused him of ripping off Superman.Yes but every writer does, so why are you picking a bone with the guy other to prove your point he recycles stuff? Also everybody does not know he recycles stuff because he does it as much as anyone else, as any writer having to write lots of scripts does. The fact his fanbases for the various cartoon series remember his episodes speaks about why he's popular.

What you constantly fail to grasp, is that people don't necessarily remember something because it holds up decades later, but because they were children and thus had a much higher chance of having an impact.

When you're five years old Cowabunga and Pizza jokes might be the most awesome thing ever, because that stuff is really basic and you might not think you need much else. You're not really going to notice glaring flaws like the rushed animation or plotholes, because you're more focused on the concept than the content. When we grow up, what we grow up with doesn't typically hold up because we've changed. We all liked things that were not that good when we were kids, and that's OK. This is why, for example, Andrew doesn't like the Fred Wolf cartoon anymore, it's no longer appealing to his adult mind and that's fine. Other's will see the flaws but give them a pass because of their nostalgia, and as long as you admit it, that's fine too.What you fail to grasp is I'm not Andrew! That's his choice, he can say he's grown out of the Fred Wolf cartoon because it's not sophisticated to his adult eyes. Doesn't mean I'm wrong to think the Fred Wolf cartoon has merit apart from rose tinted glasses you say I have on.

Most people don't seem to think the show holds up, again, totally fine because it doesn't! That doesn't really take away your good memories of it, and it's healthy to admit your nostalgia and quality are not the same thing.Yet a lot of people would disagree with you. ;)

What has me worried about you on the other hand, is that you seem to live in your own little world in which most people still love the show just as much as when they were kids, how it's this great timeless classic of a cartoon with amazing writers and everyone remembers it vividly, where anyone who disagrees with that is either a troll or a disgruntled fan of another version. I sincerely hope you're not like this regarding any other topics.So you're saying I think people are trolls for not liking the 80s cartoon? Unlike you I don't discriminate and go to other parts of the forum to leave stupid remarks like "it's the Fred Wolf cartoon who cares?" and make snide comments in discussions regarding the quality of the series. THAT is trolling which unlike you I don't do.

Not everyone will share your views and expectations on what constitutes a "good" cartoon. As someone who didn't grow up with the FW cartoon, I now enjoy it alot after having watched almost all of it and Id say its easily the most entertaining and memorable version. Come at me with your "objective facts".You see neatoman can't grasp that kids today might actually like an 80s cartoon more than what they have today because contrary to what some here say that's absolutely fine if you like the 80s series.

Well, exceptions amongst people people who are older than a certain age are always going to exist for these sorts of things. Most people are not going fall for certain details when they're older than the target demographic, due to risen standards, but it still happens. I wonder why you think that though, I've never really seen you state why. With pferreira I think it's a misunderstanding of why it had such an impact and his inability to distinguish between nostalgic feelings and quality, not to mention his pathological denial that the show isn't as vividly remembered by other people, but I can't quite pinpoint why you think it's the best version of TMNT.Ok if we go with your line of reasoning that as kids our tastes change and we demand better storytelling as adults you could easily ask why do you watch the Nick cartoon today that's aimed at kids? Adult dramas should have more adult storytelling right? Now you don't like me to lump the Nick series in with the FW series but they are both shows aimed at kids. Should I not watch the Nick series then?

Here's the thing: I grew up with different viewing to other people. I grew up learning to appreciate shows aimed at any age group due to my university degree and my own interest in critical fairness. As crazy as it sounds I see a series aimed at toddlers as just as valid as a show on HBO. I don't criticise based on the target audience. As long as it's good that's what matters. The 80s series holds up very well and I personally find it the most fun iteration of Ninja Turtles. Is it the most complex? I don't know but I value imagination more than complex plots that more than often wind up their own backsides so the 80s series does still engage me. Sorry. :)

I find people use the 'nostalgia only' argument when it's something they personally do not like and are trying to demean the importance of.I agree completely.

The FW cartoon didn't really need to be good in order to grab children's attention, it just needed to be superficially different to turn some heads.If the FW cartoon wasn't good it would have lasted as long as all those Ninja Turtles series knock offs in the 90s.

Where would this forum be without the ongoing, never-ending Fred Wolf debate. :trolleye:

I think this thread has run its course and needs to be locked. You people are going in circles.I agree with both of you, I don't understand why the mods don't just create a new forum section for the FW cartoon. That way people like neatoman don't have to stress themselves by visiting that forum. As it is people like him are free to take potshots at something people like. Maybe you guys could tell me but does the 4Kids or Nick forum have all these potshots levelled at them, saying that they're worthless on an almost daily basis? I don't visit them that's why I ask.

Vegita-San
11-17-2016, 10:12 AM
I agree with both of you, I don't understand why the mods don't just create a new forum section for the FW cartoon. That way people like neatoman don't have to stress themselves by visiting that forum. As it is people like him are free to take potshots at something people like. Maybe you guys could tell me but does the 4Kids or Nick forum have all these potshots levelled at them, saying that they're worthless on an almost daily basis?

Thread should have been locked for turning into a Ivey bashing thread early on, IMHO.

FW fans just have to ignore the people who like dark, violent and depressing. no way to go through life :).

neatoman
11-17-2016, 11:37 AM
Amazing, maybe I have a poor memory but I don't remember when I said everything you just quoted.

Different market? They were made to make money right?

Yes but every writer does, so why are you picking a bone with the guy other to prove your point he recycles stuff? Also everybody does not know he recycles stuff because he does it as much as anyone else, as any writer having to write lots of scripts does. The fact his fanbases for the various cartoon series remember his episodes speaks about why he's popular.

What you fail to grasp is I'm not Andrew! That's his choice, he can say he's grown out of the Fred Wolf cartoon because it's not sophisticated to his adult eyes. Doesn't mean I'm wrong to think the Fred Wolf cartoon has merit apart from rose tinted glasses you say I have on.

Yet a lot of people would disagree with you. ;)

So you're saying I think people are trolls for not liking the 80s cartoon? Unlike you I don't discriminate and go to other parts of the forum to leave stupid remarks like "it's the Fred Wolf cartoon who cares?" and make snide comments in discussions regarding the quality of the series. THAT is trolling which unlike you I don't do.

You see neatoman can't grasp that kids today might actually like an 80s cartoon more than what they have today because contrary to what some here say that's absolutely fine if you like the 80s series.

Ok if we go with your line of reasoning that as kids our tastes change and we demand better storytelling as adults you could easily ask why do you watch the Nick cartoon today that's aimed at kids? Adult dramas should have more adult storytelling right? Now you don't like me to lump the Nick series in with the FW series but they are both shows aimed at kids. Should I not watch the Nick series then?

Here's the thing: I grew up with different viewing to other people. I grew up learning to appreciate shows aimed at any age group due to my university degree and my own interest in critical fairness. As crazy as it sounds I see a series aimed at toddlers as just as valid as a show on HBO. I don't criticise based on the target audience. As long as it's good that's what matters. The 80s series holds up very well and I personally find it the most fun iteration of Ninja Turtles. Is it the most complex? I don't know but I value imagination more than complex plots that more than often wind up their own backsides so the 80s series does still engage me. Sorry. :)

I agree completely.

If the FW cartoon wasn't good it would have lasted as long as all those Ninja Turtles series knock offs in the 90s.



I agree with both of you, I don't understand why the mods don't just create a new forum section for the FW cartoon. That way people like neatoman don't have to stress themselves by visiting that forum. As it is people like him are free to take potshots at something people like. Maybe you guys could tell me but does the 4Kids or Nick forum have all these potshots levelled at them, saying that they're worthless on an almost daily basis? I don't visit them that's why I ask.

David Wise doesn't really have a fanbase, the only person I've ever really seen claim he's "great" is you, where did you even get that idea? And the way he recycles his is well beyond what I've seen from other writers, he doesn't just end up making similar stories a few times, it's straight up the same stories. That's the problem, but what makes it worse is that his writing isn't even good in the first place, it's rushed and full of plotholes.

You keep claiming you don't have rose tinted glasses on and that the show still holds up, but whenever people bring up that the show might not be very good in retrospect, you start to blindly accuse them of taking potshots or being trolls. In addition to that, you throw out claims that nostalgia is better than modern material. So it seems like you do have rose tinted glasses on, you just pretend you don't. This is why we think you live in your own little world, you keep throwing out nonsensical and biased arguments that fly past point.



Ok if we go with your line of reasoning that as kids our tastes change and we demand better storytelling as adults you could easily ask why do you watch the Nick cartoon today that's aimed at kids? Adult dramas should have more adult storytelling right? Now you don't like me to lump the Nick series in with the FW series but they are both shows aimed at kids. Should I not watch the Nick series then?

I agree with both of you, I don't understand why the mods don't just create a new forum section for the FW cartoon. That way people like neatoman don't have to stress themselves by visiting that forum. As it is people like him are free to take potshots at something people like. Maybe you guys could tell me but does the 4Kids or Nick forum have all these potshots levelled at them, saying that they're worthless on an almost daily basis? I don't visit them that's why I ask.

... The Nick cartoon has problems, really big problems in fact, I'm not denying that. The difference is that it's a lot easier to reapect it from a creative point of view. I'd explain why, but it'd just fly over your head.

pferreira
11-24-2016, 09:41 AM
David Wise doesn't really have a fanbase, the only person I've ever really seen claim he's "great" is you, where did you even get that idea? The need for online articles covering his work, his Facebook/Twitter following, audio interviews. I mean one of his co-writers called him 'prolific' so I need to call you out on your BS if you think he doesn't have fans.

And the way he recycles his is well beyond what I've seen from other writers, he doesn't just end up making similar stories a few times, it's straight up the same stories. That's the problem, but what makes it worse is that his writing isn't even good in the first place, it's rushed and full of plotholes.No, yet again you fail to understand that any writer writing episodic television not just animation but live action TV of any genre does recycle ideas. It happens, get over it. Also even the most indifferent Turtles fan regards the first season as well as a lot of the second season as well done, only you hate everything he's written comparing his work to Superman! :o

You keep claiming you don't have rose tinted glasses on and that the show still holds up, but whenever people bring up that the show might not be very good in retrospect, you start to blindly accuse them of taking potshots or being trolls. Why wouldn't I since you've clearly shown that to be true.

In addition to that, you throw out claims that nostalgia is better than modern material. So it seems like you do have rose tinted glasses on, you just pretend you don't. This is why we think you live in your own little world, you keep throwing out nonsensical and biased arguments that fly past point.I don't understand what you're getting at to be honest. Are you claiming stuff I like is never better than stuff today because if that's what you mean you are completely wrong, anybody knows stuff I saw when I was younger is in some cases going to be superior to stuff today. Why are you so protective over modern entertainment? Are you someone who disregards stuff you used to watch because it's now old? Are you one of those people who loves overblown CG animated films and can't stand traditional cel animation because in your eyes it's 'old'. I can watch Star Trek The Animated Series, a show I never grew up with and value it regardless of the fact it was made in the 70s. That's just me of course and I understand not everyone is like that. Doesn't mean you have the right to make out a live in my own little world and can't see past a decade of history.

The Nick cartoon has problems, really big problems in fact, I'm not denying that. The difference is that it's a lot easier to reapect it from a creative point of view. I'd explain why, but it'd just fly over your head.Dude it has the same amount of flaws or are just hopping onto a bandwagon again just because it's 'new' and you've grown up with it? :roll:

Thread should have been locked for turning into a Ivey bashing thread early on, IMHO.

FW fans just have to ignore the people who like dark, violent and depressing. no way to go through life :).I don't care if fans want dark, depressing and violent interpretations of the Turtles. The Mirage comics were like that so I welcome a different take on the material as long it isn't doing it just to be dark and violent. What I do take issue with are people like the above who criticise those who place as much value in a cartoon as other animated versions and then proceed to make snide comments in threads they don't care about which of course is a form of trolling. Now considering something like The Next Mutation was seen as a failure it's understandable people will take pot shots at it but something that was successful and is still liked today such as the Fred Wolf iteration shouldn't be looked down upon and picked on. The impression I've got since I've been on this forum is "you're not a fan unless you like this version of the Ninja Turtles and hate this version". Simple: if it offends you to hear people talk about something you can't stand either don't post in the thread or in this part forum. I'm not going to go to the Star Trek: TNG forum to say how much I despise the series (which I don't, the complete opposite) compared to the others am I? The General Forum is where the Fred Wolf fans go so of course it's going to be a little bias. Not sure why that's a hard concept for some here to understand.