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CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-03-2016, 02:59 PM
The Nick and IDW series have both been introducing a lot of new (and old) favorites to TMNT canon. But many of them are familiar... either in name only, or in everything BUT name.

It seems that Nick prefers to come up with new characters and then slap familiar names onto them... I guess in an effort to ensure fans like them more? I don't personally see the appeal in these characters.

Examples: Nick's Bebop and Rocksteady (or Anton Zeck and whoever the Russian guy is) were nothing like the original characters, even after mutation. A stereotypical Russian gangster and a Tron hiphop jive master thief? Or their Rahzar, who started off as a human Chuck Norris, mutated into a lopsided dog mutant Dogpound, and then double mutated into a sharp skeletal werewolf?

Whereas IDW starts with familiar character designs and then assigns new names to what could have been revamped existing characters. While these characters are generally well accepted, it does pretty much guarantee that no similar and pre-existing characters will ever see the light of day.

Examples: A shark mutant that ends up named Bludgeon instead of Armaggeon; a female Foot assassin named Jennika instead of Pimiko; a fox badass warrior turned sappy romantic interest for Raphael named Alopex instead of Ninjara (thanks to rights issues and a terrible name).

My question to you is... which approach do you prefer?

FredWolfLeonardo
11-03-2016, 03:04 PM
I'm not too familiar with IDW but I actually really like the Nick approach, and its not like the Nick versions aren't anything like the original. They still do share many of the same basic elements, but Nick goes out of their way to make these characters unique and give them many original backstories. Thats why when characters like Bebop, Rocksteady and Hun were announced, I was naturally very excited, not just because I would see familiar faces again, but also because it would be interesting to see what new stuff Nick does with them.

neatoman
11-03-2016, 03:50 PM
The Nick and IDW series have both been introducing a lot of new (and old) favorites to TMNT canon. But many of them are familiar... either in name only, or in everything BUT name.

It seems that Nick prefers to come up with new characters and then slap familiar names onto them... I guess in an effort to ensure fans like them more? I don't personally see the appeal in these characters.

Examples: Nick's Bebop and Rocksteady (or Anton Zeck and whoever the Russian guy is) were nothing like the original characters, even after mutation. A stereotypical Russian gangster and a Tron hiphop jive master thief? Or their Rahzar, who started off as a human Chuck Norris, mutated into a lopsided dog mutant Dogpound, and then double mutated into a sharp skeletal werewolf?

Whereas IDW starts with familiar character designs and then assigns new names to what could have been revamped existing characters. While these characters are generally well accepted, it does pretty much guarantee that no similar and pre-existing characters will ever see the light of day.

Examples: A shark mutant that ends up named Bludgeon instead of Armaggeon; a female Foot assassin named Jennika instead of Pimiko; a fox badass warrior turned sappy romantic interest for Raphael named Alopex instead of Ninjara (thanks to rights issues and a terrible name).

My question to you is... which approach do you prefer?

In the case of the Nick approach, there really isn't much point to it as far as I can see, at least not from an artistic perspective. If you're going to make your own thing anyway, why even bother pretending you're trying recreate something? The only logical reasons I can see have nothing to do with artistic expression:

Like you said, hoping that older fans will feel more attached to them. I don't really see that being the case here, since old fans aren't really the target audience here.
It helps reinforce trademarks, this show is meant to sell toys after all.
It might feel easier for the creative team if the characters aren't really their own creations, they don't have to part with the copyright of their babies.


As for the IDW approach, well, there's nothing that really prevents the older characters from popping up later, is there? As long as the title is published, there's still hope they might show up.

Regardless, I think it's probably best for now that these aren't actually the same characters. Ninjara, Armaggon and Pimiko are all characters that would just open up a can of worms if you just used them for the sake of using them. Does IDW really need to complicate the story with an ancient foxman village, a timelooping cyborg shark trying to conquer the world and an alleged daughter of the Shredder? I don't think so, I'd say it's probably not a good idea to make things complicated for no reason.

CyberCubed
11-03-2016, 04:16 PM
This can apply to any new character in any series. Look at Slash:

- Original cartoon: Slash was Bebop's secret pet Turtle that he mutated. Then Slash went beserk, had an obsession with his palm tree and flew into Dimension X.

- Archie. Slash is actually an alien Turtle from some palm tree planet. He meets Krang in space then comes to Earth, eventually has an alliance with the Mutanimals and then sacrifices himself to stop Malinga.

- IDW. Slash is a mutant created by Stockgen, he joins up with Hob and goes from a mindless beast to being intelligent.

- Nick. Slash was Raphael's pet turtle Spike. Got mutated, when rogue for a while, then formed the Mutanimals.


Slash has had a widly different origin and personality every series he was in. This is no different than any other character.

Andrew NDB
11-03-2016, 04:24 PM
Gun to my head, I kind of like the Nick approach on paper. When you accept it's sort of set in some kind of... heightened reality, old Playmates TMNT toys sandbox with a dusting of this or that... it works well and seems to follow its own set of rules. From where I'm at in season 3, it seems to have gotten a bit vapid, though.

I don't like the IDW approach on paper. Nothing seems -- forgive me if this sounds mean -- lazier than just jambalayaing together characters and stories from existing universes created by others.

CyberCubed
11-03-2016, 04:31 PM
Interesting thing is Wyrm is appearing in IDW around January, yet another old mutant brought back.

neatoman
11-03-2016, 04:38 PM
Gun to my head, I kind of like the Nick approach on paper. When you accept it's sort of set in some kind of... heightened reality, old Playmates TMNT toys sandbox with a dusting of this or that... it works well and seems to follow its own set of rules. From where I'm at in season 3, it seems to have gotten a bit vapid, though.

I don't like the IDW approach on paper. Nothing seems -- forgive me if this sounds mean -- lazier than just jambalayaing together characters and stories from existing universes created by others.

What about in practice though?

snake
11-03-2016, 04:45 PM
I'm with Andrew. Nick works better on paper but IDW in execution. Nick's reimaginings are sometimes underused, make you wonder why they even bothered, or just plain weird.

Really though, new original characters and stories are the way to go.

TigerClaw
11-03-2016, 05:27 PM
One thing I can see The IDW comic doing, is combining Old Hob with Verminator X from the Archie comic, if at some point he becomes half mutant half cyborg.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/tmntfanfiction/images/1/1c/Verminator-x.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140214031257

Given how Alopex is IDW's answer to the Archie comic Ninjara, They can do something with Old Hob, He wears an eye patch, so if he becomes a cyborg, his right eye can be cyborgnetic.

Andrew NDB
11-03-2016, 05:36 PM
What about in practice though?

In practice it can be fun. I'm not even saying IDW is doing a bad job at it... they clearly have spent a really, really long time trying to figure out how to incorporate everything into... everything.

But it's, like... fanfiction fun. It's just rearranging the puzzle pieces of other people's puzzles to make your own puzzle... that's not good prose.

Powder
11-03-2016, 05:56 PM
Gun to my head, I kind of like the Nick approach on paper. When you accept it's sort of set in some kind of... heightened reality, old Playmates TMNT toys sandbox with a dusting of this or that... it works well and seems to follow its own set of rules. From where I'm at in season 3, it seems to have gotten a bit vapid, though.

I don't like the IDW approach on paper. Nothing seems -- forgive me if this sounds mean -- lazier than just jambalayaing together characters and stories from existing universes created by others.

In practice it can be fun. I'm not even saying IDW is doing a bad job at it... they clearly have spent a really, really long time trying to figure out how to incorporate everything into... everything.

But it's, like... fanfiction fun. It's just rearranging the puzzle pieces of other people's puzzles to make your own puzzle... that's not good prose.

Nailed it.

I like both, but I much prefer how Nick has handled this, for the most part.

Optimus Primer
11-03-2016, 06:29 PM
I prefer Nick's approach. Whenever I see an old character in Nick, it's a cool homage and a new twist on an old character. But with Bludgeon specifically, I don't know why IDW renamed him, since he and Armaggon are the same characters. I love Nick and IDW though, and I love how they bring back old characters, and make new ones.

CyberCubed
11-03-2016, 06:33 PM
I prefer Nick's approach. Whenever I see an old character in Nick, it's a cool homage and a new twist on an old character. But with Bludgeon specifically, I don't know why IDW renamed him, since he and Armaggon are the same characters. I love Nick and IDW though, and I love how they bring back old characters, and make new ones.

Bludgeon and Armaggon aren't anything unlike. Armaggon may still appear in IDW down the road

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-03-2016, 06:44 PM
Gun to my head, I kind of like the Nick approach on paper. When you accept it's sort of set in some kind of... heightened reality, old Playmates TMNT toys sandbox with a dusting of this or that... it works well and seems to follow its own set of rules. From where I'm at in season 3, it seems to have gotten a bit vapid, though.

I don't like the IDW approach on paper. Nothing seems -- forgive me if this sounds mean -- lazier than just jambalayaing together characters and stories from existing universes created by others.

I prefer IDW, mainly because I prefer that they've remained focused on their overall story and not become bogged down in filler one-off toy commercial episodes.

Also, I think they've made huge original contributions to the TMNT mythos as a whole, with Old Hob, Kitsune, and the reincarnation angle. Also our first sympathetic Oroku Saki who achieved (partial) redemption.

Leonardo_thebest
11-03-2016, 07:24 PM
I'm just getting started with the new comics, so I can't really say, but I think the Nickelodeon show has been a lot of fun, being the same but different. it scratches that itch, where you still want it to be like it was, but now it's fresh and new, like a remix.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
11-04-2016, 12:45 PM
Wasn't Archie Slash's origin explained just in the Mutanimals comics?

Andrew NDB
11-04-2016, 12:50 PM
Also our first sympathetic Oroku Saki who achieved (partial) redemption.

The first sympathetic Oroku Saki can be found a ways into the Archie material. Somewhat.

Wasn't Archie Slash's origin explained just in the Mutanimals comics?

On Palmadise? Yeah. Though I think he verbally covered it beforehand.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
11-04-2016, 12:54 PM
The first sympathetic Oroku Saki can be found a ways into the Archie material. Somewhat.



On Palmadise? Yeah. Though I think he verbally covered it beforehand.

I just recall Krang, Slash and Bellybomb meeting on Morbus, and Krang recognizing Slash. They sneaked into a spacecraft and headed for one of the Eden planets, picking up Bebop and Rocksteady, and then flew further to Earth.

CyberCubed
11-04-2016, 12:55 PM
I think a lot of you are forgetting that 15 years ago the only material to draw from was Mirage. And Archie started off as a loose adaption of the original cartoon and Playmates toyline before going off on its own plots.

Nick and IDW now come later in the franchise history where there's been Mirage, Original cartoon, Archie, movies, 2k3 cartoon, etc.

Is it really such a surprise Nick and IDW are just re-using old concepts from every series?

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
11-04-2016, 12:58 PM
I think a lot of you are forgetting that 15 years ago the only material to draw from was Mirage. And Archie started off as a loose adaption of the original cartoon and Playmates toyline before going off on its own plots.

Nick and IDW now come later in the franchise history where there's been Mirage, Original cartoon, Archie, movies, 2k3 cartoon, etc.

Is it really such a surprise Nick and IDW are just re-using old concepts from every series?

Aren't you meaning 25 years ago? (unless you just mean comics)

PApagreg
11-04-2016, 01:48 PM
Honestly I would be okay with either version as long as its executed well(like Andrew said) so I would be interested in the Nick version in theory however it feels like with the Nick version they give the new incarnation personalities and just forget them after their debut episode

Off Topic Rant- I feel as if Hun in the Nick TMNT version is the worst example, in the 4kids version he was Shredder's top enforcer and had a rivalry with Casey Jones(hell it was pretty much Hun who made Casey into a vigilante) on top of that we see Hun in various ways sometimes he follows Shredder, sometimes he leds the purple dragons and at one time we saw Hun at his lowest when he was shoveling coal with Baxter Stockman and we see him at his highest when he turned the purple dragons into a Highly Trained mercenary guild and he pretty much ruled a good chunk of New York. In the IDW version Hun is Casey's abusive father who followed Shredder in return for reclaiming his Glory days and being a better father(okay he failed at the latter but at least he tried). This Hun meanwhile.... does Bruce Lee noises and fights the main character, not don't get me wrong I didn't mind Hun's new design and I was looking forward to a new character who had a fighting style that stood out from other character(which is why I loved Xever) but they don't really do anything with the character he's pretty a non entity

TigerClaw
11-04-2016, 03:11 PM
Honestly I would be okay with either version as long as its executed well(like Andrew said) so I would be interested in the Nick version in theory however it feels like with the Nick version they give the new incarnation personalities and just forget them after their debut episode

Off Topic Rant- I feel as if Hun in the Nick TMNT version is the worst example, in the 4kids version he was Shredder's top enforcer and had a rivalry with Casey Jones(hell it was pretty much Hun who made Casey into a vigilante) on top of that we see Hun in various ways sometimes he follows Shredder, sometimes he leds the purple dragons and at one time we saw Hun at his lowest when he was shoveling coal with Baxter Stockman and we see him at his highest when he turned the purple dragons into a Highly Trained mercenary guild and he pretty much ruled a good chunk of New York. In the IDW version Hun is Casey's abusive father who followed Shredder in return for reclaiming his Glory days and being a better father(okay he failed at the latter but at least he tried). This Hun meanwhile.... does Bruce Lee noises and fights the main character, not don't get me wrong I didn't mind Hun's new design and I was looking forward to a new character who had a fighting style that stood out from other character(which is why I loved Xever) but they don't really do anything with the character he's pretty a non entity
Which is the reason the Nick series just creates new characters, and just gives them the name of one of the original characters, and they are nothing like the originals.

Mona Lisa in the original series, She was a college student who mutated into a lizard, The Nick version she's a space lizard.

The same thing is about to happen with Alopex, In IDW she's a mutant Snowfox, In the Nick show she's a human who mutates to a Red Fox, and also happens to be TigerClaw's sister.

Xav
11-05-2016, 01:38 AM
Examples: A shark mutant that ends up named Bludgeon instead of Armaggeon; a female Foot assassin named Jennika instead of Pimiko; a fox badass warrior turned sappy romantic interest for Raphael named Alopex instead of Ninjara (thanks to rights issues and a terrible name).Was it really because of rights issues? The creator of Alopex said he didn't even know Ninjara existed and Ninjara was used in IDW 30th anniversary special.

ToTheNines
11-05-2016, 04:02 AM
Was it really because of rights issues? The creator of Alopex said he didn't even know Ninjara existed and Ninjara was used in IDW 30th anniversary special.

.... in a story by her creators, Murphy and Allan.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
11-05-2016, 05:28 AM
Mona-Lisa in the 2012 cartoon and some of its other characters (like Neutrinos) feel so forced just because the original were popular.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 11:23 AM
I'll say this; as much as I love IDW, one of the things that drives me up the wall that they make characters, who could have just as easily been old characters, and were stuck with even more characters piled onto an already overflowing mountain (Why Alopex instead of Ninjara? If the name's stupid just call her umeko. Old hob could've been scratch, Bludgeon should've been Armaggon, Zodi could've been Quarry, Ace Duck could've been the goofy mutianimal instead of Pigeon Pete, Why not make the Pizza guy who's friends with Mikey either Carter or Keno, why Hrold Lyja instead of 'Dr. Perry', etc.)

Yeah, but Quarry and Zodi have NOTHING in common. And Pidgeon Pete was technically already in Fred Wolf.

CyberCubed
11-05-2016, 11:28 AM
Why on earth would you want Old Hob to be scratch? What purpose does that serve? Or Pete to be Ace Duck? And as said Zodi and Quarry have nothing in common.

The only suspiciously similar character is Alopex to Ninjara obviously, everyone else is completely different. Bludgeon is also a hammerhead shark and not a great white shark like Armaggon.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 11:29 AM
Why on earth would you want Old Hob to be scratch? What purpose does that serve? Or Pete to be Ace Duck? And as said Zodi and Quarry have nothing in common.

The only suspiciously similar character is Alopex to Ninjara obviously, everyone else is completely different. Bludgeon is also a hammerhead shark and not a great white shark like Armaggon.

I'm personally quite glad Old Hob is a unique character. Scratch isn't a character; he's a toy that showed up as a boss to one obscure video game.

CyberCubed
11-05-2016, 11:34 AM
Agreed, I really don't get where he's coming from saying these characters are all the same.

More than half the characters in IDW are old characters anyway, why take out the few new characters we have?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 11:43 AM
Agreed, I really don't get where he's coming from saying these characters are all the same.

More than half the characters in IDW are old characters anyway, why take out the few new characters we have?

They DID bring back those Mutanimals character concepts in B&RDE... the anglerfish and the seahorse. So yeah, these guys do their homework. :tlol:

TigerClaw
11-05-2016, 12:00 PM
I'll say this; as much as I love IDW, one of the things that drives me up the wall that they make characters, who could have just as easily been old characters, and were stuck with even more characters piled onto an already overflowing mountain (Why Alopex instead of Ninjara? If the name's stupid just call her umeko. Old hob could've been scratch, Bludgeon should've been Armaggon, Zodi could've been Quarry, Ace Duck could've been the goofy mutianimal instead of Pigeon Pete, Why not make the Pizza guy who's friends with Mikey either Carter or Keno, why Hrold Lyja instead of 'Dr. Perry', etc.)
Old Hob could've been called Manx/Verminator X.

CyberCubed
11-05-2016, 12:59 PM
Old Hob could've been called Manx/Verminator X.

That could very well happen.

Powder
11-05-2016, 02:37 PM
I'll say this; as much as I love IDW, one of the things that drives me up the wall that they make characters, who could have just as easily been old characters, and were stuck with even more characters piled onto an already overflowing mountain (Why Alopex instead of Ninjara? If the name's stupid just call her umeko. Old hob could've been scratch, Bludgeon should've been Armaggon, Zodi could've been Quarry, Ace Duck could've been the goofy mutianimal instead of Pigeon Pete, Why not make the Pizza guy who's friends with Mikey either Carter or Keno, why Hrold Lyja instead of 'Dr. Perry', etc.)

This is stupid.

-Viacom does not own Ninjara (or Umeko). Eastman wanted to create a fox, so he did.
-Scratch is toy fodder, no need to merely recycle a namesake.
-Armaggon is a shark, time traveling genius, & partner to Shredder. Blugeon is a hammerhead, merely muscle who aids in aquatic operations.
-Quarry is not a SWAT Scorpion.
-Viacom does not own Keno or Dr. Perry, & Carter is almost universally disliked. He's the pre-Venus Venus.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 02:39 PM
This is stupid.

-Viacom does not own Ninjara (or Umeko).
-Scratch is toy fodder, no need to merely recycle a name.
-Blugeon & Armaggon are two entirely different species with unique personalities/roles/designs.
-Quarry is not a SWAT Scorpion.
-Viacom does not own Keno or Dr. Perry, & Carter is almost universally disliked. He's the pre-Venus Venus.

:tlol:

Doesn't every version have a pre-Venus Venus? A pariah of the series?

Powder
11-05-2016, 02:41 PM
Not entirely. You've got Zach, Timmy, Angel, but only Carter & Venus were the permanent "5th Turtle, Mary Sue". Nick's April is running a close third at this point, though.

TigerClaw
11-05-2016, 02:50 PM
Not entirely. You've got Zach, Timmy, Angel, but only Carter & Venus were the permanent "5th Turtle, Mary Sue". Nick's April is running a close third at this point, though.
Wouldnt Casey Jones be considered the 5th Turtle? Most often or not, He's always with the Turtles when fighting crime.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 02:50 PM
Not entirely. You've got Zach, Timmy, Angel, but only Carter & Venus were the permanent "5th Turtle, Mary Sue". Nick's April is running a close third at this point, though.

Yeah, I guess you're right. I was thinking April or Timmy/Mutagen Man from Nick... but couldn't think of anyone for 4Kids.

Ninjara would be the Archie version, except most people like her as far as I know.

TigerClaw
11-05-2016, 02:54 PM
I wonder if the show or IDW will ever do a version of Mezcaal, She's the mutant Coyote from the future in the Archie comics.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/3/32/Mezz.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131110075344

ToTheNines
11-05-2016, 02:54 PM
Not entirely. You've got Zach, Timmy, Angel, but only Carter & Venus were the permanent "5th Turtle, Mary Sue". Nick's April is running a close third at this point, though.

4kids did have Cody.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 03:04 PM
4kids did have Cody.

I FORGOT ABOUT CODY!!!!!

There we go. Abso-stinkin'-lutely.

Powder
11-05-2016, 03:06 PM
It's been a few years since I watched Fast-Forward, but wasn't he more of a stay-at-home ally? Someone who largely just provided tech resources & inside info?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 03:08 PM
It's been a few years since I watched Fast-Forward, but wasn't he more of a stay-at-home ally? Someone who largely just provided tech resources & inside info?

Well, there was at least the one episode where he had that Turtle Terminator X armor and went toe-to-toe with Darius. Or something like that.

CyberCubed
11-05-2016, 03:34 PM
Cody did go with the Turtles in quite a few episodes in the Turtle X armor, but he also wasn't with them in all of them. He was handled surprisingly well for what was essentially a kid sidekick character.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-05-2016, 03:42 PM
Cody did go with the Turtles in quite a few episodes in the Turtle X armor, but he also wasn't with them in all of them. He was handled surprisingly well for what was essentially a kid sidekick character.

I'd take Cody over Carter or Zach, but I'd prefer Venus to any of them. At least Venus was an interesting concept.

Powder
11-05-2016, 10:02 PM
You can want what you want, but the idea that they're all similar enough to have been those pre-existing characters in the first place is definitely stupid. Drop what? the topic of the thread? :tlol:

CyberCubed
11-05-2016, 10:06 PM
Not to mention there's no similarity with half those characters.

What on earth does Zodi have to do with Quarry from the 2k3 series? They literally have nothing in common in terms of personality, design, role, backstory, etc.

Scratch is nothing more than a toy. Old Hob is a fully developed character.

Zage
11-06-2016, 12:58 PM
But with Bludgeon specifically, I don't know why IDW renamed him, since he and Armaggon are the same characters.That's shark racism. ;) :P One's a great white shark, while the other is a hammerhead. That'd be like saying Leatherhead & Usub Gerstalk are the same character, because they're both alligators. Or that Slash & Tokka are the same character, cause they're both snapping turtles.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-06-2016, 01:04 PM
That's shark racism. ;) :P One's a great white shark, while the other is a hammerhead. That'd be like saying Leatherhead & Usub Gerstalk are the same character, because they're both alligators. Or that Slash & Tokka are the same character, cause they're both snapping turtles.

Yeah, but a single take on TMNT usually isn't big enough for TWO snapping turtles, TWO sharks, or TWO mutant foxes.

And really, when a lot of these characters are underdeveloped or their main gimmick is they look cool... you can't blame the show/series runner for opting out of using both Armaggeon and Bludgeon in the same series.

We'd all rather see more interesting mutants, anyway. You know most of us would be disappointed if they introduced Tokka in IDW. What would be the point?

Now RAHZAR on the other hand... :tgrin:

MsMarvelDuckie
11-13-2016, 03:10 PM
In practice it can be fun. I'm not even saying IDW is doing a bad job at it... they clearly have spent a really, really long time trying to figure out how to incorporate everything into... everything.

But it's, like... fanfiction fun. It's just rearranging the puzzle pieces of other people's puzzles to make your own puzzle... that's not good prose.


How is that bad prose? Bad prose is when the story is poorly written, the characters one-dimensional and/or un-relatable/unrealistic (not just unlikeable) and the plot makes no sense or things happen for no reason. Just because someone chooses to interpret a pre-existing idea in a new way and give it a new twist does not make it bad. IDW has done a stellar job of reimagining old characters to fit their world. There is nothing BAD or LAZY about it. They did the homework, came up with new backstories or designs for characters, and took the time to make them fit the world they created. That is GOOD prose, not bad.


Gun to my head, I kind of like the Nick approach on paper. When you accept it's sort of set in some kind of... heightened reality, old Playmates TMNT toys sandbox with a dusting of this or that... it works well and seems to follow its own set of rules. From where I'm at in season 3, it seems to have gotten a bit vapid, though.

I don't like the IDW approach on paper. Nothing seems -- forgive me if this sounds mean -- lazier than just jambalayaing together characters and stories from existing universes created by others.


And yet the IDW approach has worked out so much better than the Nick one. Better continuity, characters more well-developed and better used, and they don't feel shoehorned in. How do you explain that? They weren't lazy by any means- they took the time to make it WORK!


This is stupid.

-Viacom does not own Ninjara (or Umeko). Eastman wanted to create a fox, so he did.
-Scratch is toy fodder, no need to merely recycle a namesake.
-Armaggon is a shark, time traveling genius, & partner to Shredder. Blugeon is a hammerhead, merely muscle who aids in aquatic operations.
-Quarry is not a SWAT Scorpion.
-Viacom does not own Keno or Dr. Perry, & Carter is almost universally disliked. He's the pre-Venus Venus.


Besides which, Perry WAS mentioned in IDW- as one of Donnie's "net-buddies". So he's there, just hasn't shown up "in person". Keno may well exist too, for all we know. Likewise Carter. They just haven't been used/mentioned YET. But could be, at some point.


That's shark racism. ;) :P One's a great white shark, while the other is a hammerhead. That'd be like saying Leatherhead & Usub Gerstalk are the same character, because they're both alligators. Or that Slash & Tokka are the same character, cause they're both snapping turtles.


Agreed. Though I think that Slash in most versions is a diamondback or box turtle, rather than a snapper. He was only a snapper in IDW AFAIK. FW had him as a small turtle in a mostly dry turtle bowl- so a non-aquatic turtle species, most likely. My bet is on a variety of box turtle. So it is still possible to have both. Though IDW might have nixed that- but then again, we STILL don't know what was in the OTHER tubes..... (Maybe Tokka was another snapper in their research- most labs DON'T just have ONE test-subject of a particular type for a major project. Usually there are multiple subjects. So it's possible there were two or more snappers!)


Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan View Post

I'll say this; as much as I love IDW, one of the things that drives me up the wall that they make characters, who could have just as easily been old characters, and were stuck with even more characters piled onto an already overflowing mountain (Why Alopex instead of Ninjara? If the name's stupid just call her Umeko. Old hob could've been Scratch, Bludgeon should've been Armaggon, Zodi could've been Quarry, Ace Duck could've been the goofy Mutanimal instead of Pigeon Pete, Why not make the Pizza guy who's friends with Mikey either Carter or Keno, why Harrold Lyja instead of 'Dr. Perry', etc.)


Why? Because they ARE different characters. That would make more sense with Nick, given that their versions of characters like Mona Lisa and Hun are NOTHING like their original versions. IDW's original characters are just that- ORIINAL and NEW. They may superficially resemble a past character, but they are different enough in design and background to have a different name to avoid confusion. Perhaps those others will show up at some point, so it makes sense to establish that those new characters are NOT the old ones.

John Pannozzi
11-14-2016, 09:49 AM
-Viacom does not own Ninjara (or Umeko).

Actually, they do. (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1637648&postcount=1325)

Powder
11-14-2016, 11:48 AM
I saw that, but I don't think it applied until the 30th anniversary book came about. I remember there being a lot of talk about this in years prior... Would be nice if we could get Murph to clarify.

CyberCubed
11-14-2016, 12:40 PM
Why? Because they ARE diffrent characters. That would make more sense with Nick, given that their versions of characters like Mona Lisa and Hun are NOTHING like their original versions. IDW's original characters are just that- ORIINAL and NEW. They may superficially resemble a past character, but they are different enough in design and background to have a different name to avoid confusion. Perhaps those others will show up at some point, so it makes sense to establish that those new characters are NOT the old ones.

Mona Lisa is close enough to the original character. It doesn't matter that she's an alien, she's still a female salamander with a crush on Raphael. That's all you need.

neatoman
11-14-2016, 12:43 PM
Mona Lisa is close enough to the original character. It doesn't matter that she's an alien, she's still a female salamander with a crush on Raphael. That's all you need.

But making Bebop and Rocksteady start out as animals would be going to far?

CyberCubed
11-14-2016, 01:07 PM
But making Bebop and Rocksteady start out as animals would be going to far?

Yes, because most of their characterisation is based on the fact that they're humans.

neatoman
11-14-2016, 01:34 PM
Yes, because most of their characterisation is based on the fact that they're humans.

I thought their characterisation was based on being morons.

DestronMirage22
11-14-2016, 02:01 PM
Mona Lisa is close enough to the original character. It doesn't matter that she's an alien, she's still a female salamander with a crush on Raphael. That's all you need.

With that kind of mentality, then the PD turtles would fit the bill. The PD's are:
*Teenagers
*Mutants
*"Ninjas"
*Turtles
"That's all you need" :trolleye:

John Pannozzi
11-14-2016, 02:04 PM
I saw that, but I don't think it applied until the 30th anniversary book came about. I remember there being a lot of talk about this in years prior... Would be nice if we could get Murph to clarify.

Murphy and Chris Allan have both told me that Ninjara is now owned by Viacom.

Powder
11-14-2016, 02:06 PM
Hot damn. That's weird. I didn't think they belonged to Mirage in the first place.

CyberCubed
11-14-2016, 02:36 PM
I thought their characterisation was based on being morons.

As well as humans.

John Pannozzi
11-14-2016, 05:11 PM
Hot damn. That's weird. I didn't think they belonged to Mirage in the first place.

They were sold to Mirage I believe the day before the sale to Viacom.

Headrush still belongs to Paul Castiglia, and Steve Sullivan & Brian Thomas still owns some of the characters they created for TMNT Adventures, though.

MsMarvelDuckie
11-14-2016, 05:29 PM
Mona Lisa is close enough to the original character. It doesn't matter that she's an alien, she's still a female salamander with a crush on Raphael. That's all you need.


No it's really not. She(in Nick) is NOT- a college student, bubbly and outgoing, or a mutant- all of which were important to her character originally. Also her "crush" on Raphael was a ruse to get aboard the yacht the pirate was taking over. She didn't even start ACTUALLY liking him until almost three-quarters into the episode after she found out he was one of the REAL turtles! Nick's version is literally the polar opposite of the original in every way. (Also she was never called a salamander. In the episode she mentioned working with lizards.)

Powder
11-14-2016, 05:56 PM
No it's really not. She(in Nick) is NOT- a college student, bubbly and outgoing, or a mutant- all of which were important to her character originally. Also her "crush" on Raphael was a ruse to get aboard the yacht the pirate was taking over. She didn't even start ACTUALLY liking him until almost three-quarters into the episode after she found out he was one of the REAL turtles! Nick's version is literally the polar opposite of the original in every way. (Also she was never called a salamander. In the episode she mentioned working with lizards.)

She's literally just a toy, none of it matters.

They were sold to Mirage I believe the day before the sale to Viacom.

Ohhhhhhhh! Okay, good to know! That makes sense. Thanks!

CyberCubed
11-14-2016, 06:01 PM
No it's really not. She(in Nick) is NOT- a college student, bubbly and outgoing, or a mutant- all of which were important to her character originally. Also her "crush" on Raphael was a ruse to get aboard the yacht the pirate was taking over. She didn't even start ACTUALLY liking him until almost three-quarters into the episode after she found out he was one of the REAL turtles! Nick's version is literally the polar opposite of the original in every way. (Also she was never called a salamander. In the episode she mentioned working with lizards.)

Its still the same character which a different origin. A salamander with a crush on Raphael, that's all Mona Lisa. Whether she's a mutant or an alien Salamander makes no difference.

Slash is sometimes a mutant turtle, sometimes an alien Turtle, and sometimes a clone Turtle, what difference does it make? Nobody cares Slash has a wildly different origin each series.

TigerClaw
11-14-2016, 06:26 PM
No it's really not. She(in Nick) is NOT- a college student, bubbly and outgoing, or a mutant- all of which were important to her character originally. Also her "crush" on Raphael was a ruse to get aboard the yacht the pirate was taking over. She didn't even start ACTUALLY liking him until almost three-quarters into the episode after she found out he was one of the REAL turtles! Nick's version is literally the polar opposite of the original in every way. (Also she was never called a salamander. In the episode she mentioned working with lizards.)
Given that Mona Lisa only appeared on one episode, and lots of fans assumed she would be Raph's love interest, She never appeared in episodes after that.

The depiction of Mona Lisa and Raph's relationship on the Nick series, Was more like pandering to those fans, when they were together, They always end up kissing each other.

The whole relationship between Raph and Ninjara in the Archie comics, It lasted for a couple of issues, The only time they actually kissed was when they separated.

MsMarvelDuckie
11-14-2016, 09:12 PM
She's literally just a toy, none of it matters.


Huh. Funny but I could have sworn she actually had an episode that, you know, gave her a personality and background. Must have been dreaming. So yeah it matters. Or is it only "major" characters who are allowed to be revamped and reused? That seems knd of like a double standard to me.


Its still the same character which a different origin. A salamander with a crush on Raphael, that's all Mona Lisa. Whether she's a mutant or an alien Salamander makes no difference.

Slash is sometimes a mutant turtle, sometimes an alien Turtle, and sometimes a clone Turtle, what difference does it make? Nobody cares Slash has a wildly different origin each series.


Actually Cubed yes it makes a huge difference. A different background (and personality- you missed that detail) changes a character's role and story use considerably. Look at how Mona was used in Nick as opposed to her original appearance in FW. Vastly different storylines and character arcs. So yes it DOES matter! Just as changing Hun's character or the huge leap from Mirage Leatherhead to FW or IDW LH.


Given that Mona Lisa only appeared on one episode, and lots of fans assumed she would be Raph's love interest, She never appeared in episodes after that.

The depiction of Mona Lisa and Raph's relationship on the Nick series, Was more like pandering to those fans, when they were together, They always end up kissing each other.

The whole relationship between Raph and Ninjara in the Archie comics, It lasted for a couple of issues, The only time they actually kissed was when they separated.


Raph and ML's " relationship" boiled down to her initially using him as a way to get on the ship by pretending to be his date and later teaming with him to foil the pirate guy. If there were any feelings there it was one-sided on her part. Raph was clearly uncomfortable with the entire situation and her displays of "affection" (after she actually fought him and almost beat the crap out of him when he misinterpreted her actions in trying to sabotage the yacht to keep it from heading into danger) so it would seem the relationship never actually even existed. Even at the end Raph was more embarrassed by her dispkays than anything, and seemed to be mostly just ambivelant to her.

Skinrash
11-15-2016, 11:33 AM
Actually, they do. (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1637648&postcount=1325)
Well, whattaya know. Maybe there is a chance will see her in some TMNT media again after all.

TigerClaw
11-15-2016, 12:02 PM
Well, whattaya know. Maybe there is a chance will see her in some TMNT media again after all.
I would love to see Ninjara appear on the Nick series or on IDW, but how would they handle her given Alopex is IDW and soon to be on the Nick series.

Can the comics and show handle having two female foxes, who are pretty much identical to an extend, Even though one is a mutant and the other is not, how would they go about introducing Ninjara.

With the Nick series, they are introducing Alopex as a human turned mutant fox, to bring in Ninjara who is not a mutant, they will have to come up with something that explains that she's not a mutant, but perhaps she's from Usagi's world?

DestronMirage22
11-15-2016, 12:23 PM
perhaps she's from Usagi's world?

I'm pretty sure Viacom/Nick/whoever aren't allowed to change or add anything to Usagi's pre-established world/mythos, save for whatever's gonna happen in the crossover, so they couldn't make one of their original characters suddenly come from Usagi's universe.

TigerClaw
11-15-2016, 12:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Viacom/Nick/whoever aren't allowed to change or add anything to Usagi's pre-established world/mythos, save for whatever's gonna happen in the crossover, so they couldn't make one of their original characters suddenly come from Usagi's universe.
How would you explain Ninjara appearing on IDW or the Nick Show then? She's not a mutant, Only Nick would make her a mutant, since they always deviate from the source material.

Powder
11-15-2016, 12:58 PM
It's simple: Don't use her. :)

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
11-15-2016, 12:59 PM
It's simple: Don't use her. :)

Agreed. No Ninjara.

DestronMirage22
11-15-2016, 01:10 PM
How would you explain Ninjara appearing on IDW or the Nick Show then? She's not a mutant, Only Nick would make her a mutant, since they always deviate from the source material.

I Was talking about your suggestion that she would come from Usagi's world, as that would be unlikely for the reasons I stated above. As far as her appearing in IDW or Nick as a non-mutant, I'm confident they could find a way to make it work.

DestronMirage22
11-15-2016, 01:11 PM
Plus, having Ninjara when they already have Alopex would be pretty redundant, so yeah,that probably wouldn't happen

Skinrash
11-15-2016, 01:36 PM
How would you explain Ninjara appearing on IDW or the Nick Show then? She's not a mutant, Only Nick would make her a mutant, since they always deviate from the source material.
It's been confirmed she's gonna appear on the show? If they don't wanna make her a mutant, they could always just use the same origin as in Archie.

TigerClaw
11-15-2016, 02:30 PM
It's been confirmed she's gonna appear on the show? If they don't wanna make her a mutant, they could always just use the same origin as in Archie.
Nope, But it was recently confirmed that she's one of the characters that Viacom owns.