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Yabuturtle
11-28-2016, 05:52 PM
While Transdimensional turtles was good, the way they retconned Krang's origin could have been better. It was pretty much heavily implied he had a physical body. Here are a couple things of why I think it is inconsistent.

Krang never mentions his race or his race's name

Krang doesn't even look like the other Kraang. He has less tentacles, lavender eyes and is bigger and has a shade of pink instead.

We know he was banished to 2d earth but it still does not add up. We know there's a 2d earth and 3d earth. It makes sense there would be 2d and 3 d dimension x. Some will say there is only one dimension x but that could not be. Not only does 2d dimension x look different with different colors, such as 2d dimension x having a red background color in space, but there are also different versions of certain characters. 3d dimension x has it's own Tragg and Granitor just like 2d dimension x has it's own version of tragg and granitor, proving these dimensions are different. Not to mention krang has said he was a warlord in dimension x and several characters backed that up and that he wasn't banished for being an idiot.

Candy Kappa
11-28-2016, 05:57 PM
It's not an actual retcon, the 2D-verse isn't the same universe as FW it's still within the Nick show's version of multible dimensions.

ProactiveMan
11-28-2016, 06:40 PM
Yeah, that 2D universe was more like a parallel FW dimension where the show was made in Flash. Maybe the OT cell animated Krang is still unrelated to the Kraang.

Also, I think it was mostly a joke.

oldmanwinters
11-28-2016, 07:00 PM
It was a good effort to be clever on the part of the Nick writers, but that's about it...

Andrew NDB
11-28-2016, 08:21 PM
Yeah, that 2D universe was more like a parallel FW dimension where the show was made in Flash..

That's just fanon. I'm 100% sure TPTB fully intended that to be the actual Fred Wolf universe. If they had money for traditional cel painters and animators and all of that, they would've.

sdp
11-28-2016, 09:08 PM
The whole "it's an alternate universe similar but not the FW Turtles" is neat but also like trying too hard. They're obviously meant to be the FW turtles even if there's inconsistencies.

As far as the inconsistencies we had a thread about it when the episode aired here on this forum, I'll edit my post if I find it. As how do I feel about it? I'm not too crazy about it but I like the universes being more connected as well so a little of both. Now I don't believe the FW Krang has an actual body, it's only ever implied but never stated outright and I prefer it that way.

ToTheNines
11-28-2016, 09:16 PM
It was pretty lazy. But they tried.

FredWolfLeonardo
11-28-2016, 09:53 PM
I actually really like Krang's retcon, and I think its perfectly reconcilable with the FW show.

The extra backstory gives us more insight into his history in Dimension X, an utrom who tried to overthrow his own race and establish a new empire, but was overpowered and banished by Subprime.

It was never explicitly stated who banished him in the OT, and I don't think the Neutrinos would've stood a chance against Krang's rock soldier army. On the contrary, the Kraang hive mind is extremely large and powerful (defeating even the Triceratons), so they would have no problem defeating a rebel amongst them, and would naturally strip Krang of his body (probably acquired via mutation) to humiliate him and banish him to 2D earth, where the Kraang wanted no involvement, instead preferring 3D earth to execute their plans.

ProactiveMan
11-29-2016, 03:19 AM
That's just fanon.

It was more of a subtle criticism.

If they had money for traditional cel painters and animators and all of that, they would've.

I bet they wouldn't.

ssjup81
11-29-2016, 06:24 AM
I personally didn't care for it. OT Krang was known as an evil warlord type with his own army of rock soldiers awaiting his orders and stuff. You wouldn't get that impression from watching the Transdimensional Turtles ep.

ABrown
11-29-2016, 09:49 AM
No. Nickelodeon can pretend all that they like that the original cartoon existed within the realm of their universe, but it didn't.

ToTheNines
11-29-2016, 10:08 AM
No. Nickelodeon can pretend all that they like that the original cartoon existed within the realm of their universe, but it didn't.

Right. At face value it's cute, but watch one episode of FW and you'll see that it's irreconcilable bunk.

As per my headcanon, Krang just met the Kraang through interdimensional travel and has dealt with them in the past. But he's not an Utrom and there is still at least 4 different Dimension X's.

Wesley
11-29-2016, 01:58 PM
I didn't like Krang's retcon. It didn't make sense to me, as I always thought he had a physical body as shown in the OT episode Invasion of the Krangazoids and Krang never referred to himself as an Utrom before.

neatoman
11-29-2016, 02:04 PM
I guess the retcon doesn't really make any sense given what we knew about Krang, but then again, we are talking about a retcon to a show with two unrelated and contradictory depictions of Atlantis. I'll just pretend it's a subtle jab at the writing of the Fred Wolf cartoon and leave it at that.

Wesley
11-29-2016, 02:40 PM
I guess the retcon doesn't really make any sense given what we knew about Krang, but then again, we are talking about a retcon to a show with two unrelated and contradictor. I'll just pretend it's a subtle jab at the writing of the Fred Wolf cartoon and leave it at that.

That makes sense to me. I wasn't really bothered about the retcon anyway.

Powder
11-29-2016, 04:08 PM
I liked it. I think it's silly to read too much into the OT's chronology, canon, etc. because so much of it is loose and/or contradictory. You can just kinda pick what you like, background-wise.

Dust
11-29-2016, 04:41 PM
Don't forget that Dimension X is a DIMENSION, not a planet, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that there is just one Dimension X, with many planets with similar yet different species, at least within the FW/Nick universes. This could mean that Krang's species could be a shoot off or perhaps the original version of Nick's Utroms, or they're related in some way, or perhaps they aren't related at all but look fairly similar.

Andrew NDB
11-29-2016, 04:49 PM
Don't forget that Dimension X is a DIMENSION, not a planet, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that there is just one Dimension X, with many planets with similar yet different species, at least within the FW/Nick universes. This could mean that Krang's species could be a shoot off or perhaps the original version of Nick's Utroms, or they're related in some way, or perhaps they aren't related at all but look fairly similar.

I do like the one Dimension X theory.

In my head, I like to imagine Dimension X is both the dimension of the Archie comics as well as containing a galaxy (X-shaped, as we see in Adventures) that contains what we traditionally think of as Dimension X. In that, there is the Fred Wolf Krang, the Kraang, and whatever that is in the latest "film."

ToTheNines
11-29-2016, 04:51 PM
I do like the one Dimension X theory.

In my head, I like to imagine Dimension X is both the dimension of the Archie comics as well as containing a galaxy (X-shaped, as we see in Adventures) that contains what we traditionally think of as Dimension X. In that, there is the Fred Wolf Krang, the Kraang, and whatever that is in the latest "film."

Even IDW? That means yet another Krang, a second planet Neutrino, etc.

CyberCubed
11-29-2016, 04:52 PM
No. Nickelodeon can pretend all that they like that the original cartoon existed within the realm of their universe, but it didn't.

I'm not sure I understand this correctly, the OT universe is entirely separate from Nick's. Only Krang is said to originate from their universe.

sdp
11-29-2016, 05:46 PM
I do like the one Dimension X theory.

In my head, I like to imagine Dimension X is both the dimension of the Archie comics as well as containing a galaxy (X-shaped, as we see in Adventures) that contains what we traditionally think of as Dimension X. In that, there is the Fred Wolf Krang, the Kraang, and whatever that is in the latest "film."

I used to think of Dimension X as one as well, glad I'm not the only one.

Andrew NDB
11-29-2016, 06:29 PM
Even IDW? That means yet another Krang, a second planet Neutrino, etc.

That's where it gets less tidy. Unless we assume it's the same planet Neutrino as in the FW show... just further in time, maybe.

ToTheNines
11-29-2016, 06:42 PM
That's where it gets less tidy. Unless we assume it's the same planet Neutrino as in the FW show... just further in time, maybe.

Eh. Zak, Dask and Kala would have said something, plus princess Trib vs. Tribble and a million other contradictions.

I love multiverse crap as much as the next guy, but it has to make sense.

CyberCubed
11-29-2016, 07:31 PM
There's 3 different versions of Krang himself. The original Fred Wolf, the Archie version, and the IDW version.

Utrommaniac
11-29-2016, 07:36 PM
My personal issue with the retcon is Krang being SubPrime's cousin. Unless they mean it in a sense of comradery, but if they mean literally? I doubt it very much.

I would believe if they made contact across dimensions, but I don't believe them being actual relatives. It sure puts a big question mark on how the Nick Utroms do family groups.

Andrew NDB
11-29-2016, 09:28 PM
There's 3 different versions of Krang himself. The original Fred Wolf, the Archie version

I think you could reconcile those two Krangs into one.

Casey
11-29-2016, 09:31 PM
Right. Because FW didn't have any inconsistencies with Krang's origin or anything else for that matter.

DestronMirage22
11-29-2016, 11:39 PM
No. Nickelodeon can pretend all that they like that the original cartoon existed within the realm of their universe, but it didn't.

This. Nick gets an A for effort, but it just doesn't work out. To many inconsistencies in FW itself to try to make it make sense with the new show.

Andrew NDB
11-30-2016, 12:38 AM
This. Nick gets an A for effort, but it just doesn't work out. To many inconsistencies in FW itself to try to make it make sense with the new show.

It makes about as much sense as anything that's presented -- often conflictingly -- about Krang in FW. And Nick kind of gets to dictate what's what in that regard now.

I have no horse in this race, I just like to compartmentalize the different universes into tidy places like I did in "Odyssey." The one messy spot is Dimension X.

DarkFell
11-30-2016, 01:49 AM
My personal issue with the retcon is Krang being SubPrime's cousin. Unless they mean it in a sense of comradery, but if they mean literally? I doubt it very much.
I felt like he simply got shoehorned into the episode.
Don't get me wrong, it was a decent episode, but it could have been better (by being a little less awkward in certain areas.)
Here's an idea - since he wanted to get to Dimension X, FW Krang could have just made contact *and attempt to dupe* the Utrom High Council, since they're more intelligent than their brain-washed kin The Kraang.

neatoman
11-30-2016, 03:40 AM
I do like the one Dimension X theory.

In my head, I like to imagine Dimension X is both the dimension of the Archie comics as well as containing a galaxy (X-shaped, as we see in Adventures) that contains what we traditionally think of as Dimension X. In that, there is the Fred Wolf Krang, the Kraang, and whatever that is in the latest "film."

Personally, I'd say when you're watching the Nick cartoon, it's probably best to pretend the Nick cartoon isn't the fourth or sixth TV show based on TMNT (depending on how you count FF and BttS) and just see it as it's own independent thing. That way you'll avoid jumping through mental hoops.

CyberCubed
11-30-2016, 03:59 PM
Personally, I'd say when you're watching the Nick cartoon, it's probably best to pretend the Nick cartoon isn't the fourth or sixth TV show based on TMNT (depending on how you count FF and BttS) and just see it as it's own independent thing. That way you'll avoid jumping through mental hoops.

Why would anyone count FF or BTTS as a separate show from the 2k3 series? They're just new seasons with a subtitle rebranding. Even the episode count number continues and they're considered Season 6 and 7.

pferreira
12-01-2016, 09:45 AM
Why would anyone count FF or BTTS as a separate show from the 2k3 series? They're just new seasons with a subtitle rebranding. Even the episode count number continues and they're considered Season 6 and 7.Yeah I don't get that, makes sense to me.

I'll just pretend it's a subtle jab at the writing of the Fred Wolf cartoon and leave it at that.If it's a jab it's a very, very, very subtle jab i.e. wishful thinking on your part because I definitely don't think that's what they intended.

This. Nick gets an A for effort, but it just doesn't work out. To many inconsistencies in FW itself to try to make it make sense with the new show.I like the idea of Krang being separated from his body. It's a more interesting, horrifically implied backstory for me. I do wish they could have included the backstory presented in Season 6.

neatoman
12-01-2016, 10:20 AM
If it's a jab it's a very, very, very subtle jab i.e. wishful thinking on your part because I definitely don't think that's what they intended.


And once again you have proven your inability to understand humor... Hell, You've even missed the keyword "pretend".

WebLurker
12-01-2016, 11:37 AM
I liked the retcon, since I thought it made the show more fun and tied the two shows together.

Granted, the '80s cartoon doesn't mesh perfectly with the Nick show (but it is a parallel universe within Nick's multiverse and does fit a lot better than it did with 2k3, IMHO). On the other hand, the '80s show had a loose continuity and contradicted itself quite a bit already, so it's not like the retcon makes anything worse.

And while a big deal is made of the fact that Nick claims that '80s Krang was a Utrom/Kraang banished to the '80s universe when in the '80s cartoon pilot he claims to be a disembodied brain, in "The Four Musketrutles," we see that Krang's species are indeed brain-like Utroms. So, there is a president for him not having an actual body.

So, in conclusion, since the retcon is confirming something that was already contradicted and the '80s show already has a loose continuity, I see no reason to reject the retcon.

(In regards to why Krang doesn't look like a Nick Utrom, I would theorize that the Utroms are multiracial, for lack of a better word. His saying that he had once had a body could be either chalked up to a continuity error we ignore or a lie he told to get '80s Shredder to build him a new robot suit.)

neatoman
12-01-2016, 12:07 PM
Krang being Utrom (I'm speaking generally here, not justin regards to the Fred Wolf cartoon or TDT) is probably for the best, if his original backstory was kept then you'd have ignore the Utroms or have the coincidence that this Utrom-like thing just co-exists with them.

Yabuturtle
12-01-2016, 06:01 PM
Some could say they are multiracial but I doubt it though. Virtually all of the Kraang look like with the exception of Subprime and Prime. They say he was banished from 3D Dimension X, and went to 2D Earth but that couldn't be. He said 2D dimension x was his home dimension and 3D and 2D dimension X have their own versions of Tragg and Granitor.

Him being disembodied is more interesting and would explain why he was so upset from losing his body, even so much as he didn't want his Rock Soldiers to look at him the way he is. If he was always a brain like alien, why would Tragg be so surprised of Krang's appearance?

Plus Krang was out of character. They made him into a joke instead of being a fearsome warlord, which he was in 2D Dimension X and the fact he was willing to blow up realities just to get rid of the Turtles. He was trying to make amends but for him to go out of his way to do something so extreme is out of character. He never regarded the Turtles as major enemies, just beings that annoyed him. This is something the Shredder would do, but even that would be stretching it. The only Shredder I know that would do that is Chrell, as he actually attempted to do that.

FredWolfLeonardo
12-01-2016, 09:16 PM
So many people seem to forget about mutagen when it comes to talking about Krangs backstory. Since he used the mutagen to turn ordinary rocks into his loyal soldiers (as confirmed in the episode Michelangelo's Birthday), there's no reason for him not to use on himself and become a reptilian monster. Thus, he is still technically an utrom and was able to acquire his body via mutation before Subprime stripped him of his body via de-mutation in order to humiliate him before having him banished to 2D Earth.

And I agree with Dimension X being the same in OT and Nick. It may seem different because its an entire dimension, not just one planet, so its bound to look very different in places. Some areas of Dimension X could be 3D, pink and have giant worms/rock soldiers, while other areas could have a red sky and be 2D. Dimension X is very unstable and unpredictable after all.

Krang and Subprime don't have to be literal first cousins, I don't even think thats possible since I doubt the Kraang breed in the same way as humans and animals. However, its much more feasible to suggest that Krang wasn't a literal first cousin, but a cousin species, in the sense that Dogs and wolves are cousins descended from a common ancestor. Thus, this would explain why Krang has a similar body shape yet different appearance to the Kraang.

FredWolfLeonardo
12-01-2016, 09:36 PM
Plus Krang was out of character. They made him into a joke instead of being a fearsome warlord, which he was in 2D Dimension X and the fact he was willing to blow up realities just to get rid of the Turtles. He was trying to make amends but for him to go out of his way to do something so extreme is out of character. He never regarded the Turtles as major enemies, just beings that annoyed him. This is something the Shredder would do, but even that would be stretching it. The only Shredder I know that would do that is Chrell, as he actually attempted to do that.

I'd like to think Krang had gone insane by that point :lol:

While its true Krang wasn't initially occupied with the Turtles as first and regarded them as mere annoyances, as the classic series progressed, he started to become more-turtle obsessed. Sure, he never went to the same levels as Shredder (who went back in time to the 1500s or tried to kill the turtles when they were elderly in the future), but Krang still was much more hung up on destroying the turtles in say, season 6 than in season 2, where he was primarily concerned with his operations in Dimension X.

In my personal headcanon, Transdimensional Turtles takes place right after the OT episode Shredder Triumphant and before the episode Get Shredder, thus explaining how Krang needed the Krang to get to Dimension X and was seperated from the technodrome at the end. After being constantly defeated by the turtles so many times, he finally snapped after he lost the technodrome, causing him to resort to trying to destroy all the turtle realities in his insane outburst.

ABrown
12-02-2016, 09:26 AM
So many people seem to forget about mutagen when it comes to talking about Krangs backstory. Since he used the mutagen to turn ordinary rocks into his loyal soldiers (as confirmed in the episode Michelangelo's Birthday), there's no reason for him not to use on himself and become a reptilian monster. Thus, he is still technically an utrom and was able to acquire his body via mutation before Subprime stripped him of his body via de-mutation in order to humiliate him before having him banished to 2D Earth.


Hmm, interesting. Retcon aside, the mutagen would definitely be an explanation for his reptilian form contradicting what was previously shown.

WebLurker
12-02-2016, 11:05 AM
Some could say they are multiracial but I doubt it though. Virtually all of the Kraang look like with the exception of Subprime and Prime.

That is a tricky part (and I kind of wish they reused the 80s Krang model for more background Kraang after the fact), but there are worse explanations, esp. since "Trans-Dimensional Turtles" does state that '80s Krang (or a counterpart of '80s Krang) is a Nick Utrom.

They say he was banished from 3D Dimension X, and went to 2D Earth but that couldn't be. He said 2D dimension x was his home dimension and 3D and 2D dimension X have their own versions of Tragg and Granitor.

Who's to say that the 80s Dimension X and Nick Dimension X aren't different parts of the same universe. There could be two different versions of Tragg and Granitor, just like many of us in real life share the same names.

Him being disembodied is more interesting and would explain why he was so upset from losing his body, even so much as he didn't want his Rock Soldiers to look at him the way he is. If he was always a brain like alien, why would Tragg be so surprised of Krang's appearance?

I do agree that there some inconsistencies, but that is part and parcel with the 80s show, and the show in question already retconned the "Krang is a disembodied brain" idea. (Also, the brain explanation never made much sense; Krang's "brain" and eyes, a mouth, arm appendages, and could survive outside a body. If he were a real brain, he wouldn't have those things.)

Plus Krang was out of character. They made him into a joke instead of being a fearsome warlord, which he was in 2D Dimension X...

Honestly, he seemed pretty well in character, from what I've seen of the '80s show.

...and the fact he was willing to blow up realities just to get rid of the Turtles. He was trying to make amends but for him to go out of his way to do something so extreme is out of character. He never regarded the Turtles as major enemies, just beings that annoyed him. This is something the Shredder would do, but even that would be stretching it. The only Shredder I know that would do that is Chrell, as he actually attempted to do that.

Hmm.

Coola Yagami
12-02-2016, 03:22 PM
Don't like the retcon since it just means the nick tmnt world was somehow connected to the 80s show all along. Like... what? All this time they've been dealing with a character from a show that didn't exist til years later? They've been fighting a nick character allllll along.

I do find the alien brain thing weird. How would he function inside the head of some giant creature? Does krang himself have a brain? How can he literally be a brain and have a brain at the same time. It's weird to think about it because I do assume Utroms themselves do have their own brains. As a kid the talking alien brain sounds awesome but as an adult his mere existence raises more questions than Val Kilmer can answer. I mean does he eat? Does he sleep? Does he have any internal organs? How does krang function?

CyberCubed
12-02-2016, 05:37 PM
Don't like the retcon since it just means the nick tmnt world was somehow connected to the 80s show all along. Like... what? All this time they've been dealing with a character from a show that didn't exist til years later? They've been fighting a nick character allllll along. n?

What's so strange about that? Krang himself isn't a Nick character, its just that he was an Utrom from the Nick universe.

Krang never did name his species in the original cartoon either.

Coola Yagami
12-02-2016, 07:19 PM
Krang himself isn't a Nick character, its just that he was an Utrom from the Nick universe.



Hence he was a Nick character all along.

CyberCubed
12-02-2016, 07:40 PM
Hence he was a Nick character all along.

But he's not a Nick character, his backstory just comes from a different universe.

Coola Yagami
12-02-2016, 09:09 PM
But he's not a Nick character, his backstory just comes from a different universe.

Which is the Nick universe... so he's a Nick character. How else does he have a Nick character as a cousin? That's why the retcon kinda bothers me. At least Turtles Forever didn't say that Ch'Rell was Krang's long lost brother lost many years ago, or that 2K3 Karai was somehow related to Lotus or other such nonsense.

CyberCubed
12-02-2016, 11:39 PM
Which is the Nick universe... so he's a Nick character. How else does he have a Nick character as a cousin? That's why the retcon kinda bothers me. At least Turtles Forever didn't say that Ch'Rell was Krang's long lost brother lost many years ago, or that 2K3 Karai was somehow related to Lotus or other such nonsense.

You're taking the word "cousin" too literally. Tons of times the word "cousin" is meant to mean something similar, not relation.

I've seen cousin used on other shows where they don't actually mean they're related, just that they're "of the same kind." Being both Utroms makes that obvious.

Dust
12-03-2016, 02:46 AM
Which is the Nick universe... so he's a Nick character. How else does he have a Nick character as a cousin? That's why the retcon kinda bothers me. At least Turtles Forever didn't say that Ch'Rell was Krang's long lost brother lost many years ago, or that 2K3 Karai was somehow related to Lotus or other such nonsense.

He was created for the OT, he's not a Nick character. That's like saying Venom is a Guardians of the Galaxy character and not a Spider-Man character because his origin was revealed there.

Yabuturtle
12-03-2016, 08:25 AM
When I think about it, Kraang being an utrom isn't so bad. I like the disembodied brain story but it is odd when you think about it. If he was left with nothing but his brain, why does he have a mouth, tentacles and eyes. He should literally be just a brain, unless that's his head or his brain combined with his face somehow. But it would not explain the tentacles.

I think it would have made a better story if Krang was actually behind the Kraang. I thought they were modified clones of himself. Krang did clone himself so I thought maybe he perfected it and made a whole race based in him and he was behind everything and even controlled Kraang Prime, and ruled behind the shadows and they are all named after him, hence why they are called kraang

Or the other story I thought of, which I think is even better. I thought Krang somehow freed himself from Kraang Prime's control or was somehow immune to it. Even when Krang was working with the other Kraang he did not talk like them and still had some individuality. Plus he looked different so I thought maybe he was immune to Kraang Prime's control. And he was banished, not because he was incompetent but because he was dangerous and threatened to make his own empire and rule over the kraang and was then banished to another dimension x. Where he carved out his own empire and even made his own version of traag and granitor. I think that would have made a more interesting story and would somewhat tie unto the old cartoon. Krang was banished from dimension x to earth but in the new series it was because he was incompetent, but he repeatedly said he ruled dimension x, unless he was lying but other characters in dimension x feared him.

When you think about it, krang wasn't really a joke in the old cartoon. He did some silly stuff but he was actually very competent and his plans would almost always work if it wasn't for bebop and rocksteady's incompetence or Shredder's obssession with revenge. He was minutes always from blasting new York and having earth enter dimension x and shredder screwed up so I don't know why people think krang was a joke when he was actually very competent in the old cartoon.

But since there were hints of other members of his race in the old cartoon, the fact that his appearance was based on the Utrom and pretty much every other incarnation shows him being an utrom, he may as well be an utrom. And I am fine with that, now that I think about it. Although it would be nice to know what his original body was like, whether he had an organic or robotic body, and I think a robotic body is more likely, it would have been nice to know what it looked like.

Coola Yagami
12-03-2016, 10:41 AM
You're taking the word "cousin" too literally. Tons of times the word "cousin" is meant to mean something similar, not relation.

I've seen cousin used on other shows where they don't actually mean they're related, just that they're "of the same kind." Being both Utroms makes that obvious.

You don't know in what context Sub Prime is using the word cousin so don't assume. It seemed pretty literal to me. Even without the relation, it doesn't change the fact that Krang was one of them and Sub Prime banished him to the OT dimension. He's a Nick character now.

He was created for the OT, he's not a Nick character. That's like saying Venom is a Guardians of the Galaxy character and not a Spider-Man character because his origin was revealed there.

That's not the same thing since they're both Marvel. A better example would be saying Venom was somehow related to Darkseid because, yes, that would make him a DC character.

Also do you know what retcon means? Yes, he was originally meant to be an OT character and always has been... UNTIL this new show threw in this little tidbit of info. That's what retcons do, change what we once thought was established lore.

Jason Todd is no longer dead. Bucky is no longer dead. Stephanie was never ever Robin or Batgirl. Tim was never ever Robin but Red Robin from the start. And apparently Cyborg was always a member of the JL from the get go. Krang was a Nick character Kraang all along.

CyberCubed
12-03-2016, 01:30 PM
No Coola, you don't see what he meant. He meant Krang is still a original cartoon character because that's what he was created for.

Coola Yagami
12-03-2016, 01:57 PM
No Coola, you don't see what he meant. He meant Krang is still a original cartoon character because that's what he was created for.

UNTIL the retcon....

CyberCubed
12-03-2016, 03:58 PM
The retcon doesn't magically not make Krang a Fred Wolf character when he was created in 1987, nearly 25 years before the Nick cartoon began.

Coola Yagami
12-03-2016, 05:08 PM
The retcon doesn't magically not make Krang a Fred Wolf character when he was created in 1987, nearly 25 years before the Nick cartoon began.

..... that's exactly what retcons do... people could be dead or events could have taken place a certain way for years until someone decides to say 'Oh that was all a dream' or 'that's how you THINK that happened' erasing and often contradicting established continuity.

The Goblin killed by his own glider was canon for years until they decided to say 'oh, didn't you know? He has regenerative powers all along and was really alive and in hiding all this time'.

ToTheNines
12-03-2016, 07:20 PM
Retcon = Retroactive continuity.

You guys are being wilfully ignorant of what Coola is trying to say.

That being said, with "Turtle Prime" being the root of it all, isn't everyone just a Mirage character?

pferreira
12-08-2016, 09:19 AM
And once again you have proven your inability to understand humor... Hell, You've even missed the keyword "pretend".Sorry it's just I know you seem to get 'pretend' mixed up with the word 'fact'. :D

(I'm speaking generally here, not justin regards to the Fred Wolf cartoon or TDT) is probably for the best, Not to sound like a newbie but who this 'Justin' you're referring to? :lol:

neatoman
12-08-2016, 11:04 AM
Sorry it's just I know you seem to get 'pretend' mixed up with the word 'fact'. :D


This coming from the guy who tried to claim the Micros shouldn't count...

pferreira
12-15-2016, 08:57 AM
This coming from the guy who tried to claim the Micros shouldn't count...I talked about Micros when?

neatoman
12-15-2016, 01:26 PM
I talked about Micros when?

I don't have the time or patience to search through the wall of delusional nonsense that is your post list, so excuse me if I don't have the post ready.

Basically (from what I remember) you tried to claim David Wise was indeed responsible the Turtles having individual personalities, I pointed out that the micros had already established the individual personalities, that's when you went full moron and tried to claim the micros didn't count because they weren't part of the main series. I think that was the moment I realised you are a resident of La La Land.

WebLurker
12-15-2016, 02:38 PM
I'm not sure I understand this correctly, the OT universe is entirely separate from Nick's. Only Krang is said to originate from their universe.

Essentially, I took it to mean that the '80s and Nick cartoons are different parallel universes in the same multiverse. Dimension X, as seen in both, was a third parallel universe that had crossovers into both.

pferreira
12-22-2016, 11:48 AM
I don't have the time or patience to search through the wall of delusional nonsense that is your post list, so excuse me if I don't have the post ready.Delusional compared to your misinformation?

Basically (from what I remember) you tried to claim David Wise was indeed responsible the Turtles having individual personalities, I pointed out that the micros had already established the individual personalities, that's when you went full moron and tried to claim the micros didn't count because they weren't part of the main series. Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started. It takes a while for personalities for new characters to develop. David Wise took what he could from the comic and did his own thing that's why the animated series has it's own mythology and universe. Meanwhile Laird and Eastman did their own thing which is why for instance Raphael is always angry in the comic while Raph is sarcastic in the series. Even if the 80s cartoon was a toned down version of the Mirage comic it would never be faithful as the Mirage comic was still in flux. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

I think that was the moment I realised you are a resident of La La Land.I don't work for La-La-land Records but would love to. ;) :lol:

neatoman
12-22-2016, 01:33 PM
Delusional compared to your misinformation?

Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started. It takes a while for personalities for new characters to develop. David Wise took what he could from the comic and did his own thing that's why the animated series has it's own mythology and universe. Meanwhile Laird and Eastman did their own thing which is why for instance Raphael is always angry in the comic while Raph is sarcastic in the series. Even if the 80s cartoon was a toned down version of the Mirage comic it would never be faithful as the Mirage comic was still in flux. I'm not sure why you can't understand that.

I don't work for La-La-land Records but would love to. ;) :lol:

Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so". They had already gone past 10 issues of the regular series, published all four minis, started Tales and released the Fugitoid one-shot. For god's sake, there were even RPG's released two years before the cartoon! Who's telling who about the facts here, Pinocchio?

Hell, even if the Turtles had not been well established at that point, it's still important to note (no matter how much you may scream and protest it) that the cartoon was designed to be toy commercial and very little else. Most of the ideas probably didn't come from David Wise, but rather from the offices of Playmates. That's just what toy companies did when they commissioned cartoons, the outline, characters and concepts had been decided long before any script writer got to put pen to paper.

WebLurker
12-23-2016, 01:05 AM
Can we keep things civil, please? We're all adults here. Adults getting angry over a kids show, but still... (As an aside, of the forums I frequent, I've found this one to have the least tactful postings overall. It doesn't make me want to stick around.)

Regardless of when the '87 cartoon started production and who was calling the creative shots, it was designed to be different in tone from the source material, as I understand it. Whether you see that as a good thing or not depends; it probably ruined the chances of a faithful adaptation of the original comics, but I doubt the franchise would've caught on as a pop culture mainstay without the original cartoon and its changes.

neatoman
12-23-2016, 05:20 AM
Can we keep things civil, please? We're all adults here. Adults getting angry over a kids show, but still... (As an aside, of the forums I frequent, I've found this one to have the least tactful postings overall. It doesn't make me want to stick around.)

Regardless of when the '87 cartoon started production and who was calling the creative shots, it was designed to be different in tone from the source material, as I understand it. Whether you see that as a good thing or not depends; it probably ruined the chances of a faithful adaptation of the original comics, but I doubt the franchise would've caught on as a pop culture mainstay without the original cartoon and its changes.

Well, yes I'll agree that it was designed to be different, just not that it happened because there was too little work from. The problem is that pferreira keeps insisting on giving credit where it's not due, all based on easily debunked or vague statements.

Metalwolf
12-25-2016, 07:02 AM
Retcon = Retroactive continuity.

You guys are being wilfully ignorant of what Coola is trying to say.

That being said, with "Turtle Prime" being the root of it all, isn't everyone just a Mirage character?Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.

I think for those that hate the idea of Krang being a Nick Utrom, maybe the solution is to decanonize the existence of multiverses in TMNT? The whole possibility hinges on there being a TMNT multiverse, and without one, he can never be a Nick Utrom.

Coola Yagami
12-25-2016, 10:59 AM
Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.


True, but without it, we wouldn't have all these weird crossovers. The Mirage comics did a crossover reference with the Cowboys of Moo Mesa that shows Turtles from other forms of media.... and we still have yet another 80's crossover in season 5.

It's interesting, the Turtles are so different in each version that they can get away with basically... crossing over with themselves, which is why the whole multi-universe started. I mean, as many people as Batman has crossed over with.... we've never seen him crossover with his Adam West self. Nor have we ever seen the X-Men Evolution characters crossover with the 90's X-Men. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this except possibly the Chipmunks where one episode had the 90's versions meet their original 80's (70's?) versions when it was still called 'The Alvin Show'.

WebLurker
12-25-2016, 11:56 AM
Pretty much. I hate the whole multiverse thing, but I'll agree with you on that.

I think for those that hate the idea of Krang being a Nick Utrom, maybe the solution is to decanonize the existence of multiverses in TMNT? The whole possibility hinges on there being a TMNT multiverse, and without one, he can never be a Nick Utrom.

True, but without it, we wouldn't have all these weird crossovers. The Mirage comics did a crossover reference with the Cowboys of Moo Mesa that shows Turtles from other forms of media.... and we still have yet another 80's crossover in season 5.

It's interesting, the Turtles are so different in each version that they can get away with basically... crossing over with themselves, which is why the whole multi-universe started. I mean, as many people as Batman has crossed over with.... we've never seen him crossover with his Adam West self. Nor have we ever seen the X-Men Evolution characters crossover with the 90's X-Men. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this except possibly the Chipmunks where one episode had the 90's versions meet their original 80's (70's?) versions when it was still called 'The Alvin Show'.

The interesting thing is that we do have canonical information of the different properties existing in multiverses, but there seem to be separate continuities.

The Turtles Forever show presented all the major installments of the franchise to date (the original comics, the movies, the first two cartoons, etc.), existing in one multiverse.

However, the Nick show remade that story in 'Trans-Dimensional Turtles." Since it's a good bet that the two can't coexist in the same story (the '80s characters don't recall or remember the previous incident), that strongly suggests that the Nick multiverse is only made up of the Nick show, the original comics, and the '80s show.

Metalwolf
12-25-2016, 07:09 PM
The interesting thing is that we do have canonical information of the different properties existing in multiverses, but there seem to be separate continuities.

The Turtles Forever show presented all the major installments of the franchise to date (the original comics, the movies, the first two cartoons, etc.), existing in one multiverse.

However, the Nick show remade that story in 'Trans-Dimensional Turtles." Since it's a good bet that the two can't coexist in the same story (the '80s characters don't recall or remember the previous incident), that strongly suggests that the Nick multiverse is only made up of the Nick show, the original comics, and the '80s show.Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever. However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' :roll: is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse. To me, it's a crappy way of trying to keep the Mirage comics 'relavant' in perpetuity, and rather then it being a strength, it turns being related to the whole comic (and it's characters) into an ugly exploitable weakness. Ultimately at it's heart, it's created primarily so there's always a convenient excuse to drudge up old material to fanwank over, whether or not it adds anything of value (or even is any good.)

As for the subject ot the OP, I don't care if OT Krang is retconned into a Nick Utrom. I just want them to do it in such a way that it doesn't keep feeling like yet more OT wank, but actually adds something to him and the main Utroms and Kraang as a whole.

Xav
12-25-2016, 07:12 PM
There's 3 different versions of Krang himself. The original Fred Wolf, the Archie version, and the IDW version.You forgot the 2003 and OOTS Krang's.
Although it would be nice to know what his original body was like, whether he had an organic or robotic body, and I think a robotic body is more likely, it would have been nice to know what it looked like.We saw his original body in Invasion of the Krangazoids.

neatoman
12-26-2016, 03:42 AM
You forgot the 2003 and OOTS Krang's.
We saw his original body in Invasion of the Krangazoids.

Well the 2003 Krang only appeared for a few seconds (presumably so nobody would confuse Ch'rell for Krang) and OotS... Let's pretend Michael Bay never got his hands on TMNT, the same way we pretend Haim Saban didn't...

As for the Krangazoids, I guess? Although there was that flashback that showed Krang's species as tentacled brains, so it's also possible he was an Utrom all along? Not that it matters, the series is full of contradictions and questionable continuity, asking what Krang was before he went to earth is like asking what the moral alignment of Atlantis was, or what Baxter Stockman episodes are canon, or even what color the mutagen was.

WebLurker
12-26-2016, 04:10 PM
Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever.

I didn't mind the Turtles Forever multiverse, although I'm not sure I want to try and fit in the Nick show into it, as I explained before.

However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' :roll: is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse. To me, it's a crappy way of trying to keep the Mirage comics 'relavant' in perpetuity, and rather then it being a strength, it turns being related to the whole comic (and it's characters) into an ugly exploitable weakness. Ultimately at it's heart, it's created primarily so there's always a convenient excuse to drudge up old material to fanwank over, whether or not it adds anything of value (or even is any good.)

I thought it was okay, although I think Nick handled it better (Tutles Forever implied that killing the Mirage Turtles would destroy reality, which doesn't make much sense (and begs the question what would happen when the Mirage Turtles passed away for good). Nick suggested that just destroying the Prime dimension was needed, which makes a little more sense.

As for the subject ot the OP, I don't care if OT Krang is retconned into a Nick Utrom. I just want them to do it in such a way that it doesn't keep feeling like yet more OT wank, but actually adds something to him and the main Utroms and Kraang as a whole.

This one didn't? What do you think would've worked better?

ToTheNines
12-26-2016, 04:21 PM
better (Tutles Forever implied that killing the Mirage Turtles would destroy reality, which doesn't make much sense (and begs the question what would happen when the Mirage Turtles passed away for good)

Consider the timing, though. He was killing the Mirage turtles right in the middle of issue #1. They wouldn't have gone on to have anymore adventures to spawn or inspire the rest of the multiverse if they died right then and there.

We know that they do grow old and die, but not for a really long time. And they end up on the Halls of Lost Legends anyways.

Turtles FOREVER. Literally.

WebLurker
12-26-2016, 09:01 PM
Consider the timing, though. He was killing the Mirage turtles right in the middle of issue #1. They wouldn't have gone on to have anymore adventures to spawn or inspire the rest of the multiverse if they died right then and there.

We know that they do grow old and die, but not for a really long time. And they end up on the Halls of Lost Legends anyways.

Turtles FOREVER. Literally.

I suppose, although given that in some branches of the Nick multiverse, Splinter is a mutant rat and in others he's a human mutated into a rat, there were already changed before the first issue, which would suggest that the multiverse was already spanning and self-sustaining. (This isn't quite like in Star Trek, where the reality of the reboot movies would be erased if something prevented Spock and Nero going through the red matter black hole in the prime timeline.)

Yabuturtle
12-28-2016, 09:12 PM
Maybe it was never a recton but more of a "reveal" so to speak. His origin was mysterious enough already. But really he looks like an Utrom, there were some hints there were members of his race that were brain like and every other incarnation shows him being an Utrom, that he may as well be an Utrom now.

neatoman
12-29-2016, 05:19 AM
I suppose, although given that in some branches of the Nick multiverse, Splinter is a mutant rat and in others he's a human mutated into a rat, there were already changed before the first issue, which would suggest that the multiverse was already spanning and self-sustaining. (This isn't quite like in Star Trek, where the reality of the reboot movies would be erased if something prevented Spock and Nero going through the red matter black hole in the prime timeline.)

Why would it mean that? This isn't a serious take on the multiverse concept, it's more of a riff on adaptations, Splinter starting out as a human isn't a split in the timeline but rather an idea that comes from the adaptation process. It doesn't matter because the Splinter that started out as a rat will always be the original Splinter.

No Mirage Turtles means there's nothing to make a cartoon out of. Mirage TMNT is the TMNT, nothing else can exist without it. Erase "Eatman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1" from existance and you take out the foundation.

pferreira
12-30-2016, 10:50 AM
Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so". They had already gone past 10 issues of the regular series, published all four minis, started Tales and released the Fugitoid one-shot. For god's sake, there were even RPG's released two years before the cartoon! Who's telling who about the facts here, Pinocchio?The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap? ;)

that the cartoon was designed to be toy commercial and very little else. Most of the ideas probably didn't come from David Wise, but rather from the offices of Playmates. That's just what toy companies did when they commissioned cartoons, the outline, characters and concepts had been decided long before any script writer got to put pen to paper.Of course that's how TV works? To make money? Not just cartoons from the period but those now. You can gloss over it as much as you want but cartoon shows are made today to make money just like back in the 80s.

The problem is that pferreira keeps insisting on giving credit where it's not due, all based on easily debunked or vague statements.I'll give credit where it's due and deserved as with the Fred Wolf cartoon series.

neatoman
12-30-2016, 12:14 PM
The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap? ;)

Of course that's how TV works? To make money? Not just cartoons from the period but those now. You can gloss over it as much as you want but cartoon shows are made today to make money just like back in the 80s.

I'll give credit where it's due and deserved as with the Fred Wolf cartoon series.

You are a troll, there is pretty much no way you aren't. Literally everything you wrote here is woefully off point, even contradictory to your own statements, you'd have to have actual mental problems to argue like this.

The way you're arguing reminds me a lot of ZariusTwo, I suspected he was a troll as well but it turned he's literally autistic (not autistic as in some childish attempt at an insult, as in he's actually diagnosed with aspergers). Are you autistic by the way? Because if you are, I'll understand.

Andrew NDB
12-30-2016, 12:27 PM
Well, I do like that explanation much better then the way the 'multiverse' thing was presented by Turtles Forever. However, I hate that each 'Turtle Prime' :roll: is essentially nothing more then this big Achilles heel, that any megalomaniac powerful enough can use the destruction of it to end any multiverse.

But that's exactly the way the DC multiverse works. If you wipe out the Earth-0 universe, the whole house of cards comes down.

FredWolfLeonardo
12-30-2016, 04:08 PM
This has gone way off topic.

You are a troll, there is pretty much no way you aren't. Literally everything you wrote here is woefully off point, even contradictory to your own statements, you'd have to have actual mental problems to argue like this.

The way you're arguing reminds me a lot of ZariusTwo, I suspected he was a troll as well but it turned he's literally autistic (not autistic as in some childish attempt at an insult, as in he's actually diagnosed with aspergers). Are you autistic by the way? Because if you are, I'll understand.

Just... Who cares? Normally thats what you'd always say so why not just say it here? This arguement is pointless. It laughable to accuse others of mental illness over their opinions on Ninja turtles and to be very serious about it.

neatoman
12-30-2016, 04:43 PM
Just... Who cares? Normally thats what you'd always say so why not just say it here? This arguement is pointless. It laughable to accuse others of mental illness over their opinions on Ninja turtles and to be very serious about it.

This isn't really about opinons, it's about how he's most likely a troll. I mean look at this crap:


Yet you don't seem to understand probably because you weren't born yet that the animated series was in development only a year or so after the Mirage comic started.

Oh my god, you're so full of crap! Misinformation? The show was in development three years after the comic debuted, not " only a year or so".

The Mirage comic was still in it's early years. The Mirage comic first came out in 1984, the cartoon in 1987. You're telling me they started production on the animated series in 1984? Are you sure you're not full of crap? ;)


It's contradictory, no sane person argues like this. He has to be a troll, I literally gave the timescale of 1984-1987 and he somehow tries imply I said both started in 1984.

FredWolfLeonardo
12-30-2016, 04:51 PM
This isn't really about opinons, it's about how he's most likely a troll. I mean look at this crap:

It's contradictory, no sane person argues like this. He has to be a troll, I literally gave the timescale of 1984-1987 and he somehow tries imply I said both started in 1984.

If he is a troll indeed, then he was won because he got the reaction that he wanted.

neatoman
12-30-2016, 05:03 PM
If he is a troll indeed, then he was won because he got the reaction that he wanted.

... Yeah, OK. I guess you're right about that... I'll just try to pretend he doesn't exist, hopefully he'll lose interest in this forum and go accuse people of being 14 while behaving like he's 10 somewhere else...

Tartaruhga Muhtante
12-31-2016, 07:43 AM
Details ... I really don't care about it in that sense. Even if there are inconsistencies between the Fred Wolf Cartoon and what is shown on Nickelodeon I think that's despicable.

Tartaruhga Muhtante
12-31-2016, 07:43 AM
At other times I would have cared, but nowadays it really doesn't matter with me now.

neatoman
12-31-2016, 08:14 AM
Funny thing is, years ago i read that the comic strip ilplied that Krang was an Utrom. Well I finally tracked down the strip where that was implied, turns out it's not just implacation, it outright said that's what he was. So Krang being an Utrom has been a thing since the mid-90's, not exactly 21st century revision after all.:lol:

ToTheNines
12-31-2016, 08:21 AM
That was Archie Krang though. Not Fred Wolf.

neatoman
12-31-2016, 08:40 AM
That was Archie Krang though. Not Fred Wolf.

Oh, yeah...

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-04-2017, 11:13 AM
In my personal headcanon, Transdimensional Turtles takes place right after the OT episode Shredder Triumphant and before the episode Get Shredder, thus explaining how Krang needed the Krang to get to Dimension X and was seperated from the technodrome at the end. After being constantly defeated by the turtles so many times, he finally snapped after he lost the technodrome, causing him to resort to trying to destroy all the turtle realities in his insane outburst.

Always thought Krang's bubble-walker robot fell out of the Technodrome before the Technodrome fell through the portal in "Shredder Triumphant" and Krang's android is returned to the Technodrome in "Turtle Trek", still inside in "Divide and Conquer".

pferreira
01-05-2017, 12:15 PM
You are a troll, there is pretty much no way you aren't. Literally everything you wrote here is woefully off point, even contradictory to your own statements, you'd have to have actual mental problems to argue like this.

The way you're arguing reminds me a lot of ZariusTwo, I suspected he was a troll as well but it turned he's literally autistic (not autistic as in some childish attempt at an insult, as in he's actually diagnosed with aspergers). Are you autistic by the way? Because if you are, I'll understand.No more autistic than you, but I also don't a topic on why a writer from the 80s cartoon stole from Superman just because I don't like the writer. ;)

It's contradictory, no sane person argues like this. He has to be a troll, I literally gave the timescale of 1984-1987 and he somehow tries imply I said both started in 1984.I mistyped slightly that but you're trying to say I think the cartoon was created in 1984? Does that make sense? Also I haven't been the one criticising and slagging off people's views for not liking a cartoon series. I appreciate nearly all TMNT unlike you...so who's the troll exactly?

This arguement is pointless. It laughable to accuse others of mental illness over their opinions on Ninja turtles and to be very serious about it.Apparently I'm the one who's delusional, must be due to neatoman's medical assessment since he's apparently a doctor and yes I do find calling me autistic offensive as anyone would along with childish. :-?

If he is a troll indeed, then he was won because he got the reaction that he wanted.I was under the impression neatoman was? :roll:

I'll just try to pretend he doesn't exist, hopefully he'll lose interest in this forum and go accuse people of being 14 while behaving like he's 10 somewhere else...You're behaving like a child yourself because you can't respect other people's opinions. Grow up!

neatoman
01-05-2017, 01:36 PM
You're behaving like a child yourself because you can't respect other people's opinions. Grow up!

You're an idiot if you believe that's what this is about, it's not about your opinion, it's about your nonsensical statements. You can have your opinion, just don't claim the show wasn't a cheap toy commercial, because we know otherwise. We know it was commissioned by a toy company, we know it continued to market toys, we know the production rushed and we know it cut corners.

You can like the show all you want, just don't try to excuse the shoddy production.

pferreira
01-05-2017, 02:09 PM
You're an idiot if you believe that's what this is about, it's not about your opinion, it's about your nonsensical statements. You can have your opinion, just don't claim the show wasn't a cheap toy commercial, because we know otherwise. We know it was commissioned by a toy company, we know it continued to market toys, we know the production rushed and we know it cut corners.

You can like the show all you want, just don't try to excuse the shoddy production.You're 'criticisms' can be levelled at any TMNT comic book, animated series, video game or merchandise bar the original Mirage one as that came first. I show respect to something that isn't any more a cash in than your precious IDW comic book. In fact I'll add I've shown more respect for other people's opinions on this forum than you have so I'm guessing you're actually the idiot. :ohwell:

neatoman
01-05-2017, 03:48 PM
I show respect to something that isn't any more a cash in than your precious IDW comic book.

The Fred Wolf cartoon was designed to be a toy commercial and it cut corners to make sure the profits were as high as possible, the IDW comic is meant to earn money through keeping the readers' interest rather than sponging off the success of a toyline, that's a huge difference. Yes, both were meant to earn money but one did it in a rather cynical way.

There's no reason to respect the Fred Wolf cartoon from an artistic perspective, maybe from a marketing perspective but not a creative one.

pferreira
01-05-2017, 05:28 PM
The Fred Wolf cartoon was designed to be a toy commercial and it cut corners to make sure the profits were as high as possible, the IDW comic is meant to earn money through keeping the readers' interest rather than sponging off the success of a toyline, that's a huge difference. Yes, both were meant to earn money but one did it in a rather cynical way.

There's no reason to respect the Fred Wolf cartoon from an artistic perspective, maybe from a marketing perspective but not a creative one.You say I'm delusional...It doesn't matter how you spin it the Fred Wolf cartoon was originally made for a toy line so that could make money while something like the IDW comic was made to promote the franchise. Both had artistry behind it, both had qualified animators and the same intentions. The only difference is now most people who work on new incarnations of the franchise bring nostalgia with them. THAT is the only difference. Both are as cynical as you can make them if you want. The OT cartoon was made past a second season because Fred Wolf thought there might be a want for it, IDW have continued making their comic book because there's a want for it. Both were made to promote the franchise, make it successful. Same thing, not sure why you think what you grew up with is valid and what I grew up with isn't.

neatoman
01-06-2017, 04:10 AM
You say I'm delusional...It doesn't how you spin it the Fred Wolf cartoon was originally made for a toy line so that could make money while something like the IDW comic was made to promote the franchise. Both had artistry behind it, both had qualified animators and the same intentions. The only difference is now most people who work on new incarnations of the franchise bring nostalgia with them. THAT is the only difference. Both are as cynical as you can make them if you want. The OT cartoon was made past a second season because Fred Wolf thought there might be a want for it, IDW have continued making their comic book because there's a want for it. Both were made to promote the franchise, make it successful. Same thing, not sure why you think what you grew up with is valid and what I grew up with isn't.

I don't think comics have animators, not really necessary.

What I'm getting at however is that disguising a literal commercial as a television show is an inherently more cynical tactic, especially if you don't even bother making sure the production errors are kept to a minimum. There really isn't much artistry behind something like that.

WebLurker
01-06-2017, 11:07 AM
There's no reason to respect the Fred Wolf cartoon from an artistic perspective, maybe from a marketing perspective but not a creative one.

Considering that it defined the franchise, remains entertaining to rewatch/see for the first time at worst, and inspired some great installments in the franchise, I think it deserves respect.

pferreira
01-12-2017, 10:14 AM
I don't think comics have animators, not really necessary.Artists, animators, still in the same job of artistry.

What I'm getting at however is that disguising a literal commercial as a television show is an inherently more cynical tactic, especially if you don't even bother making sure the production errors are kept to a minimum. There really isn't much artistry behind something like that.Two points I want to note. Firstly in terms of comparing the 80s cartoon to a toy commercial you need to look at the big competition at the time and what they were doing. He-Man was massive in the early 90s as was GI Joe, they were made to sell toys but could still be fun to watch. Is Turtles on the same level. Not really, I feel the writing and overall production was better. Fred Wolf says on the Turtle Power documentary he wanted the series to be more than just another toy commercial. Now compare Transformers to the Fred Wolf cartoon which was nothing but a toy commercial to the point that Hasbro dictated which Transformers needed to be included in which episode based on popularity or to raise market awareness. Hasbro even told writer David Wise in the Season 4 finale to include every single Transformer in less script time than he had on the page. The animation in the cartoon series at times explicitly shows the viewer (the child) how a character transforms so the viewer on a subconscious level remembers this when he goes to buy the toy. The Fred Wolf cartoon series wasn't bad at all compared to Transformers, at least the former tried to develop it's characters, with the G1 show that wasn't possible as new Transformers had to be included every episode or killed off (the 1986 movie) or phased out due to being unpopular.

Secondly the 80s cartoon as I have mentioned before wasn't done on a big budget. It wasn't produced by Disney or Warner Bros but an independent studio. The budget increased a little when the show became big and went to CBS but it was still viewed as a cartoon so it was to be made cheaply as animation wasn't taken seriously at the time.

Considering that it defined the franchise, remains entertaining to rewatch/see for the first time at worst, and inspired some great installments in the franchise, I think it deserves respect.I agree, it did more right than wrong.

neatoman
01-12-2017, 11:59 AM
Artists, animators, still in the same job of artistry.

Two points I want to note. Firstly in terms of comparing the 80s cartoon to a toy commercial you need to look at the big competition at the time and what they were doing. He-Man was massive in the early 90s as was GI Joe, they were made to sell toys but could still be fun to watch. Is Turtles on the same level. Not really, I feel the writing and overall production was better. Fred Wolf says on the Turtle Power documentary he wanted the series to be more than just another toy commercial. Now compare Transformers to the Fred Wolf cartoon which was nothing but a toy commercial to the point that Hasbro dictated which Transformers needed to be included in which episode based on popularity or to raise market awareness. Hasbro even told writer David Wise in the Season 4 finale to include every single Transformer in less script time than he had on the page. The animation in the cartoon series at times explicitly shows the viewer (the child) how a character transforms so the viewer on a subconscious level remembers this when he goes to buy the toy. The Fred Wolf cartoon series wasn't bad at all compared to Transformers, at least the former tried to develop it's characters, with the G1 show that wasn't possible as new Transformers had to be included every episode or killed off (the 1986 movie) or phased out due to being unpopular.

Secondly the 80s cartoon as I have mentioned before wasn't done on a big budget. It wasn't produced by Disney or Warner Bros but an independent studio. The budget increased a little when the show became big and went to CBS but it was still viewed as a cartoon so it was to be made cheaply as animation wasn't taken seriously at the time.

I agree, it did more right than wrong.

Yes, I suppose that when compared to the slightly older cartoons like Transformers, which had a way larger toylines to promote by the way, it's somewhat less insulting. If you start out with ten action figures to promote, then of course there's going to be more focus on a handful of character than if you started out with forty action figures to promote.

That doesn't really make it good though, it just makes it a little less shameless than what came out before. The show had a hamster mutate into a human sumo wrestler covered in tattoos, just for the sake of promoting a toy, so it's still a shameless toy commercial.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-16-2017, 01:45 PM
Yes, I suppose that when compared to the slightly older cartoons like Transformers, which had a way larger toylines to promote by the way, it's somewhat less insulting. If you start out with ten action figures to promote, then of course there's going to be more focus on a handful of character than if you started out with forty action figures to promote.

That doesn't really make it good though, it just makes it a little less shameless than what came out before. The show had a hamster mutate into a human sumo wrestler covered in tattoos, just for the sake of promoting a toy, so it's still a shameless toy commercial.

Archie-Tattoo was actually more well-written, and no mutant. He should've been like that instead.

Garfield
01-16-2017, 02:03 PM
Nope. I hate it.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-16-2017, 05:28 PM
Nope. I hate it.

Did you really hate Archie-Tattoo?

Powder
01-16-2017, 06:08 PM
They're answering the thread's question...

Garfield
01-16-2017, 08:13 PM
Did you really hate Archie-Tattoo?

I don't know what Archie-Tattoo is, so I'm not talking about that. I was referring to the transdimensional turtles origin for Krang.

Kendamu
01-17-2017, 01:54 AM
I did a lot of thinking about the original thread question. Several minutes even! Finally, after a bit of taxing mental gymnastics, I came to this conclusion:

http://i.giphy.com/bqalUGFYfyHzW.gif

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-17-2017, 07:48 AM
I don't know what Archie-Tattoo is, so I'm not talking about that.

Tattoo in the Archie Comics? He's no mutant:

http://tmntentity.blogspot.se/2011/03/tmnt-adventures-32.html

pferreira
01-19-2017, 10:10 AM
Yes, I suppose that when compared to the slightly older cartoons like Transformers, which had a way larger toylines to promote by the way, it's somewhat less insulting. If you start out with ten action figures to promote, then of course there's going to be more focus on a handful of character than if you started out with forty action figures to promote.But every cartoon series is made to have a toyline. That's how business works unfortunately. As long as it's a good cartoon that doesn't rely on the toyline like The Transformers did that's what's important. The Real Ghostbusters was exactly in the same boat as Turtles when it came to cash cowing but like the Fred Wolf cartoon it turned out better than just a successful toy commercial.

That doesn't really make it good though, it just makes it a little less shameless than what came out before. The show had a hamster mutate into a human sumo wrestler covered in tattoos, just for the sake of promoting a toy, so it's still a shameless toy commercial.It's no secret the writers weren't bothered about incorporating the toy characters into the series since they didn't want the burden or expressed disinterest. That's why characters like Tattoo or Ace Duck were handled as an afterthought. I guess the writers felt the series didn't need to rely on it's toyline.

neatoman
01-19-2017, 01:29 PM
But every cartoon series is made to have a toyline. That's how business works unfortunately. As long as it's a good cartoon that doesn't rely on the toyline like The Transformers did that's what's important. The Real Ghostbusters was exactly in the same boat as Turtles when it came to cash cowing but like the Fred Wolf cartoon it turned out better than just a successful toy commercial.

It's no secret the writers weren't bothered about incorporating the toy characters into the series since they didn't want the burden or expressed disinterest. That's why characters like Tattoo or Ace Duck were handled as an afterthought. I guess the writers felt the series didn't need to rely on it's toyline.

Transformers had more toys to promote, therefore less time for each character, that was my point. If the Fred Wolf cartoon had more characters in it's toyline, then they would have taken up more episodes. It doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's less cluttered. I don't know anything about the Real Ghostbusters though, so I have no idea wheter it's actually good or not.

And just because Tattoo may or may not have been an afterthought, that doesn't make his appearence or those of other toy characters any less awkward.

Coola Yagami
01-19-2017, 08:30 PM
Yeah, other than possibly the Ecto-2, but don't quote me on that, the toys were their own thing. They made up all sorts of weird wacky ghosts that were never in the actual show.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-20-2017, 01:46 PM
I don't know anything about the Real Ghostbusters though, so I have no idea wheter it's actually good or not.



It aired over TV 3 during the early-1990's.

neatoman
01-20-2017, 01:51 PM
It aired over TV 3 during the early-1990's.

Doesn't really help me now to know what channel it aired on 25 years ago.

Candy Kappa
01-20-2017, 02:06 PM
I don't know anything about the Real Ghostbusters though, so I have no idea wheter it's actually good or not.


I'm gonna give you a proper answer then what Scandinavian TV channel it aired on back in the 90's :lol:

Season 1 and 2 are worth a watch, after that the show takes a huge turn with meddling from Q5 a consulting firm so out of touch they told the exces and point glasses on Jeanine would scare children. Season 1-2 also have Lorenzo Music as Venkman, after that (ugh) Dave Coulier takes over and it's not pleasant to listen to.

Any episodes post season 2 written by Straczynski is worth a watch, though. but unless you fall heels over the show I'd give the rest a pass, especially when it's Slimer's show.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-20-2017, 02:07 PM
We don't know anything of Ace Duck in the original TV-series, he could just have been a human actor wearing an outfit.

neatoman
01-20-2017, 02:39 PM
I'm gonna give you a proper answer then what Scandinavian TV channel it aired on back in the 90's :lol:

Season 1 and 2 are worth a watch, after that the show takes a huge turn with meddling from Q5 a consulting firm so out of touch they told the exces and point glasses on Jeanine would scare children. Season 1-2 also have Lorenzo Music as Venkman, after that (ugh) Dave Coulier takes over and it's not pleasant to listen to.

Any episodes post season 2 written by Straczynski is worth a watch, though. but unless you fall heels over the show I'd give the rest a pass, especially when it's Slimer's show.

OK, cool. I might give it a try.

I never bothered to check it out because I've always been pretty satisfied with the original but never felt a need for more, the movie ends with the Ghostbusters banishing a god in the body of a marshmallow mascot, I've never really imagined how you could top that.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-20-2017, 02:42 PM
That's just fanon. I'm 100% sure TPTB fully intended that to be the actual Fred Wolf universe. If they had money for traditional cel painters and animators and all of that, they would've.

Of course. We heard the same when Turtles Forever aired in November 2009.

pferreira
01-26-2017, 01:59 PM
Transformers had more toys to promote, therefore less time for each character, that was my point. If the Fred Wolf cartoon had more characters in it's toyline, then they would have taken up more episodes. It doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's less cluttered.No it doesn't work like that. More toys don't mean more episodes. Think about how many Ninja Turtles toys weren't included in the cartoon series. It's because Fred Wolf and co didn't want to restrict themselves totally like Transformers did.

I don't know anything about the Real Ghostbusters though, so I have no idea wheter it's actually good or not.Considering you're inability to understand that the Fred Wolf series was capable of good writing and wasn't just made to sell toys you'd probably think the same thing as RGB. The latter by the way is seen by the public and critics as a great and memorable series that's still watchable today like Ninja Turtles. :)

And just because Tattoo may or may not have been an afterthought, that doesn't make his appearence or those of other toy characters any less awkward.It does make it awkward in that you can clearly tell the writers weren't restricted by the toy license. It's not like Tattoo had a whole story revolving around him is it? Anyway the Nick series has a toyline but here's the difference: audiences are introduced to them at toy fairs months before the episodes air therefore you wouldn't notice it was cashing in on that series since you already would have known to expect those toys/characters to show up. Change in marketing, that's what you need to be aware of. Nick markets toys based on it's series the same as Fred Wolf/Playmates did, except the marketing strategy was different.

They made up all sorts of weird wacky ghosts that were never in the actual show.That's true. Even Ecto-3 looked nothing like the cartoon version and it was used what, two times?

I never bothered to check it out because I've always been pretty satisfied with the original but never felt a need for more, the movie ends with the Ghostbusters banishing a god in the body of a marshmallow mascot, I've never really imagined how you could top that.Simple: you take great writers from the time (or in your case hack writers) and carry on the mythology with new bad guys and villains. ;)

neatoman
01-26-2017, 03:23 PM
Considering you're inability to understand that the Fred Wolf series was capable of good writing and wasn't just made to sell toys you'd probably think the same thing as RGB. The latter by the way is seen by the public and critics as a great and memorable series that's still watchable today like Ninja Turtles. :)

This is laughable. The general public and most critics have not seen the show since childhood, if you think they would consider the show well written, I would gladly know where you got that impression. Most people I talk to who watched it as children can barely remember it, and the most in depth review I've seen of the series is Mark Pellegrini's and he's pretty clear on his affinity for the show has far more to do with nostalgia than the actual excecution.


But, looking back through the sobering lens of adulthood at the long-lasting animated series that sparked my lifelong pastime, I can’t help but notice that…It’s kind of ****. And more often than not, particularly during the middle seasons, you can easily drop the “kind of” from that appraisal.

Adapted from the original Mirage comics by the animation industry’s most notorious writing hack, David Wise, the Fred Wolf series regularly suffered from embarrassingly low production values, scripts cloned a thousand times over from previous productions (a trademark of the patently slothful David Wise), a severely rushed quality on nearly all aspects and, as made-for-syndicated programming of the 80s typically encouraged, a value of quantity over quality.

I'm not even sure it's true that it's all that memorable or iconic in the eyes of the public to be honest, if anything it seems to have started slipping into obscurity seeing how blatant throwbacks to it are failing draw attention.

As for the toyline marketing... Are you serious? Do you honestly believe a toy fair is the difference in the strategy? Pretty sure those existed in 1988 as well. And that "not restricted by the toyline gibberish"? Tattoo is just a small sample of toy marketing in an episode entirely made for toy marketing, a perfect example of the toys being put before the show. Yes, it still fricking sucks that after 30 years we have yet to have a show where the toyline doesn't inject itself into the show, but despite all the episodes Nickelodeon produced in the name of markting some lame action figure that was just going to get tossed aside, I can at least say they didn't obliously rush any episodes. At least none of the episodes contain internal contradictions, at least none of the episodes are at odds with other episodes, at least none of the episodes contain immedietly noticable animation errors, at least none of the episodes, etc. Yes, both shows were made explicitly for the purpose of marketing a toyline and that's not a good thing when the toyline could just use the show for a basis, but at the very least they at least tried to make it presentable as an actual show this time around. And don't give me that "it was the times" or "it was the budget excuse" crap, if you release a show in such a sorry state where it has shoppy animation and still needs to rely on still frames in places alongside obvious animation errors to meet the deadline then you don't care about making a good show.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-26-2017, 03:52 PM
This is laughable. The general public and most critics have not seen the show since childhood

Most can probably not even remember an episode (knowing its official name and its main-storyline).

neatoman
01-26-2017, 04:00 PM
Most can probably not even remember an episode (knowing its official name and its main-storyline).

Agreed, even ignoring the name of the episode (let's face it, what kid even bothers to memorise the title card?), just the basic story of an episode seems to be difficult for them to recall.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-26-2017, 04:24 PM
Agreed, even ignoring the name of the episode (let's face it, what kid even bothers to memorise the title card?), just the basic story of an episode seems to be difficult for them to recall.

I guess the situation is worse in Sweden, since the merchandise there in general was smaller.

ssjup81
01-27-2017, 02:38 AM
Agreed, even ignoring the name of the episode (let's face it, what kid even bothers to memorise the title card?), just the basic story of an episode seems to be difficult for them to recall.Three eps that never left my memory from childhood, titles and all, are Cowabunga Shredhead, Mr. Nice Guy, and Raphael Meets His Match. They really stood out for me.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-27-2017, 07:39 AM
Three eps that never left my memory from childhood, titles and all, are Cowabunga Shredhead, Mr. Nice Guy, and Raphael Meets His Match. They really stood out for me.

But we're talking about those who aren't active fanse still today.

WebLurker
01-27-2017, 11:51 AM
The thread seems to have been completely derailed. I think that this back and forth would be better suited to its own thread, private messaging, or something; it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-27-2017, 06:05 PM
I guess the retcon doesn't really make any sense given what we knew about Krang, but then again, we are talking about a retcon to a show with two unrelated and contradictory depictions of Atlantis. I'll just pretend it's a subtle jab at the writing of the Fred Wolf cartoon and leave it at that.

My theory is that the first Atlantis, off the Greece coast in the Mediterranean Sea, is the real island that once Plato described sinking into the seawater. The later, which thinks Bebop is a king, is an old civilization adopting the name.

ssjup81
01-27-2017, 08:12 PM
But we're talking about those who aren't active fanse still today.I meant before I got back into it, those three never left my mind.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-28-2017, 04:13 AM
I meant before I got back into it, those three never left my mind.

Some years ago. I watched a Youtube clip with two persons playing "Turtles in Time" for SNES. They couldn't even simpy remember the very simpliest characters, like the name of Krang.

ssjup81
01-28-2017, 04:53 AM
Some years ago. I watched a Youtube clip with two persons playing "Turtles in Time" for SNES. They couldn't even simpy remember the very simpliest characters, like the name of Krang.Wow, how could anyone forget Krang with the way he talked? >< Oh well. Some things stick with you while others don't.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-28-2017, 08:50 AM
Wow, how could anyone forget Krang with the way he talked? >< Oh well. Some things stick with you while others don't.

I don't know, but I guess they weren't able to watch many episodes, just a few comics?

pferreira
02-02-2017, 11:10 AM
This is laughable. The general public and most critics have not seen the show since childhood, if you think they would consider the show well written, I would gladly know where you got that impression.You would be surprised. For us older members Turtles comics, cartoons etc never really left us which is why we know about stuff years later, it's called being a fan. People who write these articles grew up with the cartoon, some can probably remember quite a bit of the show. The same probably goes for writers discussing other cartoon shows from way back because after all why would you review something you have no knowledge of?

Most people I talk to who watched it as children can barely remember it, Most people you talk to are probably 14 years old.

and he's pretty clear on his affinity for the show has far more to do with nostalgia than the actual excecution.That's his opinion, not everyone's. He approached those reviews with the attitude that the show doesn't hold up and so that's what he found.

Most can probably not even remember an episode (knowing its official name and its main-storyline).Actually with a lot of popular cartoons like TMNT and RGB the average viewer doesn't remember episode titles but they do remember episode stories which is why we get so many "Looking for the name of an episode" not just on here but on other forums as well.

I'm not even sure it's true that it's all that memorable or iconic in the eyes of the public to be honest, if anything it seems to have started slipping into obscurity seeing how blatant throwbacks to it are failing draw attention.It's like one of the most famous cartoon series of all time. The fact you think it's obscure is what I call laughable. :lol:

As for the toyline marketing... Are you serious? Do you honestly believe a toy fair is the difference in the strategy? Pretty sure those existed in 1988 as well.Nope. Now I understand the Internet has existed throughout your entire life but once upon a time the Internet wasn't commonly used by anyone. The way things were marketed, the overall marketing strategy was totally different. Back then if kids wanted toys based off a cartoon they would go to their nearest toys shop or if they were lucky perhaps glanced at a catalogue telling them the exact store they could find a that Turtles toy. Yeah there were toy fairs but most people who visited those fairs were investors or buyers. People did not generally visit toy fairs as fans! It was very uncommon and there was no Internet to spread the word toys were approaching. Today we have the Internet. Pre-orders can be setup online at a click of a button. We can see YouTube videos of well known YTs at toy fairs. People know about toys now months before due to advancements in technology. In this case most aren't going to think tie-in merchandise is a simple cash-in for the cartoon because the toys have been previewed months before! This leaves the actual episodes of a TV series to sell the cartoon, not the toys. Different marketing strategies see? That's your history lesson for today. 8)

And that "not restricted by the toyline gibberish"? Tattoo is just a small sample of toy marketing in an episode entirely made for toy marketing, a perfect example of the toys being put before the show.Strange, but when I look at one of my all time favourite Ninja Turtles episodes I don't go "look at all those toys, look at Groundchuck and Dirtbag toys on screen" I go "Groundchuck and Dirtbag are fun characters, I love this plot where the Turtles travel to a world of Turtles and deal with those consequences while Shredder builds a new Technodrome to conquer the Earth". The story you point to was a PrimeTime Special so obviously they wanted to include new characters related to a toyline but there isn't many examples of this throughout the show's run again compared to The Transformers.

At least none of the episodes contain internal contradictions, at least none of the episodes are at odds with other episodes, at least none of the episodes contain immedietly noticable animation errors, at least none of the episodes, etc.We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The 80s cartoon series didn't have Viacom behind it. MWS did pretty well with what it had. Consider perhaps that in thirty years time teens your age will poke fun at the Nick's silly elements, animation and storytelling with some accusing you of keeping those rose tinted glasses on.

Yes, both shows were made explicitly for the purpose of marketing a toyline and that's not a good thing when the toyline could just use the show for a basis, but at the very least they at least tried to make it presentable as an actual show this time around. And don't give me that "it was the times" or "it was the budget excuse" crap, if you release a show in such a sorry state where it has shoppy animation and still needs to rely on still frames in places alongside obvious animation errors to meet the deadline then you don't care about making a good show.I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You have no idea that marketing strategies are different when comparing the 80s and 2010s, you have no idea what resources an animation company back in the 80s had and you also don't have a clue about what writers or animators were allowed and not allowed to do back then as animation was fairly looked down upon.You are basically saying that the 80s cartoon is inferior because of the Nick series was made in the 21st Century as it's CGI because apparently they didn't know what they were doing back then. That to me is ridiculous to anyone who even understands how animation works. You can keep spouting BS man but it can feel weary after a while because you aren't listening to people here that have been around longer, who were there at the time to understand the history and methods of the whole thing. If you want to be a knowledgeable you should listen to a range of opinions on the history of the franchise, not just dismiss a part of the franchise you know next to nothing about. :)

Vundi
02-03-2017, 07:35 PM
Why is everyone ripping it apart? Who cares about what universe or reality they exist in. It's all made up and that episode was pure fan service. Glad they did it and can't wait for the next!

WebLurker
02-03-2017, 09:52 PM
Why is everyone ripping it apart? Who cares about what universe or reality they exist in. It's all made up and that episode was pure fan service. Glad they did it and can't wait for the next!

Yeah, the conversation isn't really even about the OP anymore.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
02-11-2017, 04:54 AM
I wonder if the person who wrote this, published here in early-April 2004, reacts:

http://www.thetechnodrome.com/fanfics/eok/eok.shtml