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FredWolfLeonardo
01-23-2017, 09:20 PM
Which do you prefer? Splinter originally being a rat or being a human? I know this thread may have been done before but I wasn't there at the time and Id be curious to know what your thoughts would be. Which interpretation do you prefer and why?

Utrommaniac
01-23-2017, 09:29 PM
I prefer Splinter as Hamato Yoshi, even only because I thought being his pet rat wasn't very streamlined. Why should Shredder care that Yoshi's pet hates him? It's inconsequential to him. Yoshi as the rat would make things more personal to Shredder.

Wildcat
01-23-2017, 09:39 PM
Yoshi. A pet rat learning martial arts is silly.

Ya, ya I know...ninja turtles. Within the context of everything it does not make sense for the rat.

IndigoErth
01-23-2017, 10:08 PM
Easy one for me - Yoshi.

I just like better having him as an already trained martial arts master who passes his teachings along to the Turtles. I'm still cursing these recent movies for not inserting Yoshi as a martial arts-trained lab tech instead. Different, sure, but at least better than the darn picture book learnin'.

Being human also sets him up to provide them with basic home schooling. They had to learn how to read and write somewhere. Not to mention have any desire for the normal conveniences of home that other people have.

Having him as Yoshi also surely has the Turtles grow up with stories of his deceased wife they could see as their maybe-would-be adopted mom they never met. Which I think resonates with me a little having never met my paternal grandparents and that weirdness of having these people who are so connected to you yet remain like these ghosts who are complete strangers.

Technogeek29
01-23-2017, 11:53 PM
I could go with either or. Or extra note go the IDW route and use both.

Utrommaniac
01-24-2017, 12:07 AM
Easy one for me - Yoshi.

I just like better having him as an already trained martial arts master who passes his teachings along to the Turtles. I'm still cursing these recent movies for not inserting Yoshi as a martial arts-trained lab tech instead. Different, sure, but at least better than the darn picture book learnin'.

Being human also sets him up to provide them with basic home schooling. They had to learn how to read and write somewhere. Not to mention have any desire for the normal conveniences of home that other people have.

Having him as Yoshi also surely has the Turtles grow up with stories of his deceased wife they could see as their maybe-would-be adopted mom they never met. Which I think resonates with me a little having never met my paternal grandparents and that weirdness of having these people who are so connected to you yet remain like these ghosts who are complete strangers.

This basically sums it up. It's certainly isn't weird for a natural-born rat to teach turtles martial arts considering the material, but I think it adds a bump in the road, especially in Splinter's relationship with Shredder. It makes everything more personal.

Andrew NDB
01-24-2017, 12:08 AM
"Origin" will reveal what he is. At least for Mirage. In my eyes. Not just a rat.

ssjup81
01-24-2017, 01:13 AM
I've always preferred Splinter as Hamato Yoshi. I prefer this because the idea of a human having to be forced to live in poverty or in the sewers as a ratl shunned by a society he was once a part of, seems much more tragic than a rat who is technically returning to the wild and just becomes bigger. Seems a rat would adapt much quicker than a human to those conditions.

Shark_Blade
01-24-2017, 05:00 AM
The pet rat learning ninja by copying its master is always sad and laughably silly. :tlol: So no, that's out of the window.

Him as Yoshi turned into a rat (OT, 2012, IDW) is always far more superior and credible. :tcool: So yes, I pick the latter.

neatoman
01-24-2017, 05:03 AM
I guess it doesn't matter much since Hamato Yoshi's role is pretty much to be, you know, dead. In that case he might as well be the same character as Splinter.

Although I'm not a fan of the mutagen turning people into animals, just opens up the door to the mutagen doing whatever without consistency, so the reincarnation angle was probably the best way to tackle it. That way Splinter can be Hamato Yoshi without being the root of making the mutagen a plot convenience.

Edit: Although now that I think about it, issue 50 did imply the reincarnation might just be implanted memories, sort of like in Blade Runner. Maybe that's the way to go?

Cryomancer
01-24-2017, 05:06 AM
I prefer Splinter as Hamato Yoshi, even only because I thought being his pet rat wasn't very streamlined. Why should Shredder care that Yoshi's pet hates him? It's inconsequential to him. Yoshi as the rat would make things more personal to Shredder.

Splinter as a rat explains why Shredder leaves his mortal enemy to just live without any sort of retaliation for 15 years though (because he doesn't even know he exists/is planning revenge). It also probably works better for the whole cycle of revenge concept too? Arguable I guess.

Candy Kappa
01-24-2017, 05:17 AM
This topic have been done to death with several threads, but here we go again.

It's less "rat vs man" and more that I prefer the Mirage version, it has more layers and are less clear cut on what's right and wrong, good vs evil. The cycle of vengeance.

No other version have made that impact, it's always Splinter = flawlessly good and Shredder = villainous evil.

I can look past Splinter's unlikely age as a regular rat. As Oroku Saki was 7 years old when Hamato Yoshi killed Oroku Nagi and fled to America with Tang Shen, and he was 19-20 when he exacted his revenge by killing his big brother's murderers. Because I find the overall story and the elements in the story far better and more engaging then what we've gotten on other incarnations.

That said, my second favorite Splinter is the Nick version, and he was human prior mutation, so I'm not completely opposed to Splinter being human.

And it is also a mutagen issue. I prefer a mutagen that function much like the Mirage version, that it turns animals/creatures into intelligent humanoids instead of mutating its victim into whatever the last creature they touched. Less is more in my opinion when it comes to mutants, and the FW type of mutagen usually ends up with a mutant-heavy series.

ToTheNines
01-24-2017, 07:06 AM
The pet rat learning ninja by copying its master is always sad and laughably silly. :tlol:

You like Bayturtles.

neatoman
01-24-2017, 07:14 AM
You like Bayturtles.

Who knows, maybe he thinks subsituting Hamato Yoshi with a picture book is the best damn solution ever?

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-24-2017, 08:10 AM
Hamato Yoshi. I prefder him having knowledge about various cultures around the world, like he had about Europe in the 1987-1996 animated TV-series as well as about some other countries, even in the Middle East, in the Archie comics.

Panda_Kahn_fan
01-24-2017, 11:25 AM
I prefer Hamato Yoshi becoming splinter. It's more tragic to me if Splinter lost his humanity and family to Saki's rage and wanting revenge for that, rather than a pet seeking revenge for it's master's death. And IDW's splinter and turtles are indeed reincarnations, as Tang Shen's spirit regards them as family.

DestronMirage22
01-24-2017, 01:50 PM
I've kinda always liked Splinter as a mutated rat more than a human-turned-rat.
I like it because it adds more to the relationship between him and the turtles. Imagine a buncha animals suddenly becoming these mutant abominations. They'd obviously want to be together, and being in the same boat, so to speak, would bring them closer together, strengthen their ties. As opposed to Splinter suddenly becoming an animal mutant.

plastroncafe
01-24-2017, 02:01 PM
I preferred rat long before I learned of the penchant of the US using rodents to dehumanize the Japanese in their WWII propaganda.

Now I really prefer it.

Andrew NDB
01-24-2017, 02:07 PM
I preferred rat long before I learned of the penchant of the US using rodents to dehumanize the Japanese in their WWII propaganda.

There is that, yeah.

Utrommaniac
01-24-2017, 02:28 PM
I preferred rat long before I learned of the penchant of the US using rodents to dehumanize the Japanese in their WWII propaganda.

Now I really prefer it.

Well, that certainly adds a whole new level of irony to my TMNT concept...I'm not sure if it was accidental or not, but actually could be a good thing to address within a TMNT storyline, with how much more humiliating the mutation would be for Yoshi.

ToTheNines
01-24-2017, 02:53 PM
Well, that certainly adds a whole new level of irony to my TMNT concept...I'm not sure if it was accidental or not, but actually could be a good thing to address within a TMNT storyline, with how much more humiliating the mutation would be for Yoshi.

Lol, I'd say it's best left forgotten.

I'm sure it was coincidental and Wise/Wolf didn't even think about it.

It is funny to think about the OT having Splinter and Yoshi being two different characters. They coulda just had him incarcerated for his attempted murder instead of killing him.

Donnie
01-24-2017, 03:34 PM
I am always partial to the first film's storyline.

Dork of 1987
01-24-2017, 03:43 PM
Both? I'm only familiar with Splinter's origins in the first Mirage comic and OT (so far). Both are trying to do something different, Mirage out to create over the top drama and OT to create backstory for a living character, so I've never compared or weighed the two.

Walkabout
01-25-2017, 03:28 AM
I'm fine with Splinter actually being Hamato Yoshi, but I guess I'll say I prefer him being the pet rat.

neatoman
01-25-2017, 03:58 AM
I preferred rat long before I learned of the penchant of the US using rodents to dehumanize the Japanese in their WWII propaganda.

Now I really prefer it.

... I'm going to use that argument in the future.

Shellington
01-25-2017, 09:11 AM
Both work well.

I prefer the rat origin myself, I find it more endearing that Splinter would remember how kind and brave his master was and would pick that up from him, and pass it on to his Turtles.

ticktack
01-25-2017, 09:54 AM
Leave to fans to wander and bring theories about Splinter during the show. That would be crazy. I had a theory that Splinter in Nick version had Yoshi's memory so that's why he says "I remember I had a daughter, Saki and I being rivals, ....".
I also suggested that Karai isn't Splinter's daughter or she isn't Miwa,
> she can join the turtles (for variety) without being Miwa or
> being Miwa but still has her aims and for-wathever-reason stay with shredder, maybe just for breaking the expectations.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-25-2017, 10:10 AM
Who taught rat-Splinter reading?

Splinter starting as a rat picks up a book or comic when naming the turtles...

IndigoErth
01-25-2017, 12:07 PM
Yeah, as I also mentioned, he had to be able to teach the Turtles how to read and write. Get Donnie started on math somewhere. And all that other human stuff/ways/education they were raised with. Not even just tv could do it, because what would a rat care about having a tv, let alone know how to set that up.

(Although the thought of Turtle tots also growing up with the likes of Sesame Street is adorable. Not to mention it could look to them like mutant-seeming animal characters, such as Big Bird, depicted able to freely exist among humans.)


Not that I'm opposed to the rat story and respect that it was the original concept. The human version just fits better for me, and, as already mentioned and agree, just seems all the more tragic and deep.


So the score is currently 17 to 17? I swear, if it ends tied... lol But that would be fitting.

Andrew NDB
01-25-2017, 12:08 PM
Who taught rat-Splinter reading?

Who said anyone ever did?

Tetsu Deinonychus
01-25-2017, 12:13 PM
I prefer Splinter as Hamato Yoshi, even only because I thought being his pet rat wasn't very streamlined. Why should Shredder care that Yoshi's pet hates him? It's inconsequential to him. Yoshi as the rat would make things more personal to Shredder.

He doesn't care...until the rat sends his Ninja Turtle sons to kill him.

Anyway, I'm fine with it either way, but if I have to choose, I prefer him to be a rat from the start. I don't like the mutagen turning humans into animals, and I like the Splinter who misses his beloved master more than the Splinter that misses being human.

Also, a pet rat mastering ninjutsu and the mutagen "knowing" which animal to turn you into are both equally absurd, so one doesn't really make more "sense" than the other. But, I do give the 4kids show credit for bringing in the Ancient One as the one who really trained Splinter, to cover that loose end.

FredWolfLeonardo
01-25-2017, 06:35 PM
I'm pleasently surprised at how many people like Splinter originally being a rat. Based off what Id heard from many tmnt fans before, I expected the poll to be heavily in favour of Splinter as a human.

Panda_Kahn_fan
01-25-2017, 08:25 PM
I will concede, the rat-turned mutant splinter in these worlds is an amazing creature, far more amazing than the turtles themselves. This super-rodent puts all other martial arts masters to shame, making them all look bad by the magnitude of what he has accomplished.

Think about it; he became a complete Ninja master by simply remember some movements he copied when a normal rat, somehow taught himself to read, write, and speak both English and Japanese fluently, taught himself history, eastern philosophy, and art to the level of having a college degree, crafted or was able to steal Ninja weapons of fine enough quality for the turtles to wield, educated Donatello to the point he could self -teach himself advanced engineering, and taught himself the parenting skills to raise and feed four mutated turtles by himself.

Oh, and let's not forget this is a splinter who, based solely on what we see in mirage and the movies, is an expert level ninja master, who may have trained rigorously in the martial arts, but actually fought few, if any, actual opponents during the years he raised the turtles in solitude. I wouldn't be surprised if the TMNT probably have more actual fights under their belts than their master by the end of the first few months of their careers. Heck, from the first movie it could be inferred that the 'fight' with the Shredder on the rooftop was Splinter's first battle ever, no wonder he just stepped out of the way, and simply tossed Shredder over the side of the building!

At least the four kids series covered this hole up, by having the Ancient One to possibly give him more training, educate him, and he actually did fight in the battle nexus tournament during the years the TMNT grew up. And yes, I understand the vague reference he wasn't an ordinary rat even before he mutated, but that does not account for the full-fledged education of a season martial arts master and sensei, just from mimicking Hamato Yoshi's moves from a cage. I'm not bashing or criticizing the rat origin, just taking note of how amazing Splinter is in the universes where he isn't Hamato Yoshi in some form, or has the Ancient one and Ninja tribunal around to teach him to be one of the greatest martial artists in the world.

Coola Yagami
01-25-2017, 09:51 PM
Well, that certainly adds a whole new level of irony to my TMNT concept...I'm not sure if it was accidental or not, but actually could be a good thing to address within a TMNT storyline, with how much more humiliating the mutation would be for Yoshi.

I can see Shredder saying 'now you'll become the rat you really are' as he mutates him.

Gotta love ol OT Shredder, just dumping random ooze on Yoshi not knowing what it is or what it does but hoping it would kill him.

pferreira
01-26-2017, 11:43 AM
I only chose Hamato Yoshi as turning into the rat because it gave him a character goal for the Fred Wolf series. A shame then by Splinter No More they got rid of that. But I think it gives Ninja Turtles an interesting goal to push towards.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-26-2017, 02:38 PM
Who said anyone ever did?

He named the turtles from a Renaissance art book.

John Pannozzi
01-26-2017, 06:20 PM
I think I like him being a rat.

As silly as it is to say, pre-mutation Splinter is quite cute. And I tend to agree with Andrew Modeen that the way Mutagen worked in the OT was ill-conceived.

Chris
01-27-2017, 02:37 PM
If I had to chose I'd probably go with his original origin account a rat but U think both work and open up interesting story opportunities so I'm good with whichever works best for each incarnation.

Logan
01-29-2017, 12:16 PM
Rat. I just have qualms with him mimicking martial arts in pre-mutated form. I'd prefer that part be scrubbed from the origin or at least retconned in some way.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-29-2017, 12:53 PM
And I tend to agree with Andrew Modeen that the way Mutagen worked in the OT was ill-conceived.

But it was the way of mutating him, Bebop and Rocksteady like that.

ToTheNines
01-29-2017, 01:40 PM
Rat. I just have qualms with him mimicking martial arts in pre-mutated form. I'd prefer that part be scrubbed from the origin or at least retconned in some way.

There's no way to retcon any existing universes this way, but I always thought it would be cool to have Yoshi survive the night Shredder kills Shen and, using his connections as a Guardian, mutate Splinter purposefully.

Then have Yoshi train him, and them battling the Foot for a few years until Shredder finally kills Yoshi. THEN the turtles are mutated (either accidentally or as a result of Splinter's actions).

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-29-2017, 02:09 PM
I only chose Hamato Yoshi as turning into the rat because it gave him a character goal for the Fred Wolf series. A shame then by Splinter No More they got rid of that. But I think it gives Ninja Turtles an interesting goal to push towards.

The first videogame also had him mutating back by the end.

IndigoErth
01-29-2017, 02:47 PM
On the topic of how the mutagen has been made to work, as mentioned by previous commenters...

Now see, personally that has never bothered me, the whole "turning humans into animals" thing, as I'd always simply dismissed any largely socialized mentality of humans being some other different thing with the fact that humans are still just one of many existing species, equally vulnerable to it, and the mutagen simply has the ability to change a creature and give them some of the traits of another species. And could in theory include a cross that doesn't even include human...

(Which come to think of it could actually get really interesting and drive some weird 80s/90s style toy concepts. i.e. Someone's dog came into contact with the mutagen somehow, but its last contact was with the same family's cat. o.O :tlol: It's only those who mix with human who luck out in gaining human intelligence and personhood.)

Now... the part I take issue with is when they just start letting it bring to life inanimate objects. As much as I loved the design of the Speed Demon car Nick came out with and still want a toy of it (with opening mouth/hood), the mutagen factor... just no.

edit: Though that also gives me issue with Ice Cream Kitty. Love the character and tend to just give it a pass, but the turning into the ice cream she ingested... eh. Really, her last contact was with Mikey, which could have been far stranger.

HeroTurtlesFan
01-30-2017, 06:31 AM
Definitely Hamato Yoshi.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
01-30-2017, 08:25 AM
Definitely Hamato Yoshi.

It seems to at least be the most popular version.

Yabuturtle
01-30-2017, 06:44 PM
Seems to make more sense form Yoshi to be the rat. No ran can copy martial arts moves, which suggests that rat was already mutated in some way, shape or form. I sometimes speculated that rat was one of the rats from Nihm from The Secret of Nihm. Would explain how he was so intelligent enough to copy moves. :lol:

pferreira
02-02-2017, 08:40 AM
The first videogame also had him mutating back by the end.Does it? Yeah you're right. I meant the cartoon though.

Utrommaniac
02-02-2017, 08:47 AM
Seems to make more sense form Yoshi to be the rat. No rat can copy martial arts moves, which suggests that rat was already mutated in some way, shape or form. I sometimes speculated that rat was one of the rats from Nihm from The Secret of Nihm. Would explain how he was so intelligent enough to copy moves. :lol:

Come to think of it, that's kind of how it was handled in IDW. I just didn't think of it that way until now.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
02-03-2017, 01:54 PM
Does it? Yeah you're right. I meant the cartoon though.

Check out a playthrough of the first videogame.

Andrew NDB
02-03-2017, 03:19 PM
Definitely Hamato Yoshi.

It seems to at least be the most popular version.

Meaningless.

DonatelloDomeHead31
02-03-2017, 03:48 PM
I went with rat for my vote because in the 1990 ninja turtles movie, it's funny watching the little rat puppet doing little kicks. As he gets intelligent, I was a bit unsure about that.

ToTheNines
02-04-2017, 07:28 AM
A relevant little article: http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-322-a-tail-of-two-splinters/

neatoman
02-04-2017, 07:49 AM
A relevant little article: http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-322-a-tail-of-two-splinters/

So his problem with the pet rat origin is that Splinter would technically not be much older than the Turtles, but what's fine with it is that it explains the lack of ninja focus?... Which was an issue in the show that started the human origin, not the comic. And the problem he has with the human origin, is that the tragedy of it is needlessly excessive? Even though that tends to be an argument in favor of it?

I don't think I've ever heard any of those arguments before, seems oddly reversed from what I'm used to hearing. I suppose I agree with the idea that reincarnation might be the best solution, and guess he has a point about adding a huge tragedy to a show that was essentially a comedy was a bizarre move, but I think I'm gonna have to process the other arguments.

ABrown
02-04-2017, 07:49 AM
I suppose if I have my pick, I would go with a rat. However, it's a non-issue for me. I find the personality, character design, and voice actor to be far more important as to whether I like said version of Splinter.

Tetsu Deinonychus
02-04-2017, 09:01 AM
O
Now see, personally that has never bothered me, the whole "turning humans into animals" thing, as I'd always simply dismissed any largely socialized mentality of humans being some other different thing with the fact that humans are still just one of many existing species, equally vulnerable to it, and the mutagen simply has the ability to change a creature and give them some of the traits of another species. And could in theory include a cross that doesn't even include human...


It's not that I think humans are fundamentally different from other animals. It's that I don't think inanimate ooze would be able to "tell" which creature one had most recently touched.

MsMarvelDuckie
02-06-2017, 08:27 PM
It doesn't have to "tell". It just fuses the DNA of the base creature with whatever DNA was left by the last organic/living thing it came in contact with. Which is how Snakeweed(in Nick), Baxter(any mutant version), or even the "Mootagen Monster" (as Mikey dubbed it) from the OT were all created. (The last one simply being a severely mutated "super-cow".) In theory, ANY two(or more) creatures that come in contact with each other could be mutated to a hybrid form. Like the cat/dog mix Indigo suggested, or something more bizarre like a mix of human, lion and scorpion(manticore), or cat and hawk (small griffon?), or any other combination one could think of. The fun part is that with the "last creature in contact", it doesn't even need to be one that is noticable- it could be dog hairs on your clothes counting as "contact"! (And Ice Cream Kitty is easy to explain- ice cream is made from frozen cream, which has lots of bacteria and enzymes from the milk....)

IndigoErth
02-06-2017, 08:47 PM
or something more bizarre like a mix of human, lion and scorpion(manticore)
Manbearpig. :tlol:


Yeah, at least in my head the best sense I could always make of it is it's just reacting with trace DNA from skin cells or whatnot.

I dunno though, I might have to debate the Ice Cream Kitty thing; she aught to have turned into a cat-cow then, or a cat and...god knows what the bacteria would look like cat sized. :trazz: lol

MsMarvelDuckie
02-06-2017, 09:05 PM
Well she DID melt into a blob during her mutation lol! I kind if take it as a mix of all the ice cream ingredients combining with the cat to make- whatever she is. Flavored, and frozen, of course.

Manbearpig, ROFL!! I could see that. Shredder would probably come up with something like that as a weapon. My best guess is the trace DNA would just get mixed in with the closest equivelant in the base creature's genes, like taking two puzzles and trading pieces of one for the other that fit the general image. (Adding a rat's tail, claws, fur and head shape to a human, or altering the skeketal structure of a turtle to bipedal form.) I've spent a lot of time researching the anatomical logistics of the turtles to see how they "tick" as it were. The biggest difference is the pelvic and shoulder joints. Shift them outside the shell and it's not hard to see how the mutagen would work.

pferreira
02-09-2017, 09:05 AM
Check out a playthrough of the first videogame.No I remember, thanks for mentioning it. :)

ABrown
02-09-2017, 09:17 AM
It doesn't have to "tell". It just fuses the DNA of the base creature with whatever DNA was left by the last organic/living thing it came in contact with. Which is how Snakeweed(in Nick), Baxter(any mutant version), or even the "Mootagen Monster" (as Mikey dubbed it) from the OT were all created. (The last one simply being a severely mutated "super-cow".) In theory, ANY two(or more) creatures that come in contact with each other could be mutated to a hybrid form. Like the cat/dog mix Indigo suggested, or something more bizarre like a mix of human, lion and scorpion(manticore), or cat and hawk (small griffon?), or any other combination one could think of. The fun part is that with the "last creature in contact", it doesn't even need to be one that is noticable- it could be dog hairs on your clothes counting as "contact"! (And Ice Cream Kitty is easy to explain- ice cream is made from frozen cream, which has lots of bacteria and enzymes from the milk....)

This is how I've always interpreted it as well.

Tetsu Deinonychus
02-11-2017, 10:27 AM
It doesn't have to "tell". It just fuses the DNA of the base creature with whatever DNA was left by the last organic/living thing it came in contact with. Which is how Snakeweed(in Nick), Baxter(any mutant version), or even the "Mootagen Monster" (as Mikey dubbed it) from the OT were all created. (The last one simply being a severely mutated "super-cow".) In theory, ANY two(or more) creatures that come in contact with each other could be mutated to a hybrid form. Like the cat/dog mix Indigo suggested, or something more bizarre like a mix of human, lion and scorpion(manticore), or cat and hawk (small griffon?), or any other combination one could think of. The fun part is that with the "last creature in contact", it doesn't even need to be one that is noticable- it could be dog hairs on your clothes counting as "contact"! (And Ice Cream Kitty is easy to explain- ice cream is made from frozen cream, which has lots of bacteria and enzymes from the milk....)

But, that still means it somehow separates the DNA of the most recent other creature one touched from the DNA of other creatures that one also touched not that long ago. That's the reason they gave why FW Splinter was a human/rat hybrid instead of a human/turtle hybrid or a 3-way rat/human/turtle hybrid. "Yoshi had most recently been with...the rats!"

To be honest, the "rat learning ninjutsu" thing doesn't bother me that much. I never saw it as Splinter seeing Yoshi practice his Taijutsu moves a couple of times and magically becoming a master. I always imagined that his cage was in the dojo and Splinter was constantly watching Yoshi train, and spar, and meditate (and teach students once he fled to America and started his martial arts school). And, once he mutated it all made sense to him. He learned to talk from remembering a lifetime of hearing Yoshi and Tang Shen and everyone else talk. Filled in the blanks with the various ninjutsu and eastern sorcery books that he's established to have (no idea how he learned to read, maybe he used to sit on Yoshi's shoulder while he was reading books and Yoshi, thinking it was cute, would start reading out loud). And, honed his skills by going on solo missions while the Turtles were growing up, like his psychic battle with Foot mystics in Tales Vol.2 Issue #2 (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2012/09/tales-of-tmnt-vol-2-2.html), (Vol.1 Issue#9 (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2011/07/tmnt-vol-1-9.html) would have probably been a solo mission if Splinter didn't have to lend his body to the dying grandfather).

Just as preposterous? sure! But, there's really no way for the TMNT and Splinter to come into being that isn't. It's really just personal taste.

If anything busts the Mirage origin, though. It's that rats don't have much of a life-span. But, that kind of negates Splinter's existence as a character all together, so I'm cool with them exercising a little artistic license regarding that and rats in the TMNT multiverse living as long as humans.

An interesting question though, is "What was Yoshi like?" We're used to thinking of Yoshi as being similar to Splinter because of the versions where they're the same character, but in the universes where they aren't, Yoshi could have had a very different personality.

MsMarvelDuckie
02-11-2017, 09:27 PM
It's not so much "most recent" as what has left traces behind (that are still there). If Yoshi had handled the turtles without washing up, he very well COULD have become a hybrid. But all he had recent contact with (according to the story) was the rats. The turtles had only had contact with him. For all we know, his "contact" with the rats could have been rat hairs left behind on his kimono after he cleaned up from playing with the turtles.

As for the rat in a cage origin, the biggest problem with it is that a rat simply wouldn't have any interest or understanding of ANY of that. Martial arts are a complex and time-consuming discipline that takes YEARS to learn, and a rat has neither the time in lifespan nor the interest in the activity itself to bother paying much attention to it. It would be meaningless activity of its human owner that it AT BEST might watch once in a while for a few minutes out of curiosity or to determine if it is being threatened, but would quickly lose interest as it is an activity that has nothing to do with the rat's own needs.

One has to take into account that Splinter (at that point) would still think and act AS A RAT. He does not gain any of the thought processes or interests of a human until AFTER he is mutated, nor would he have enough long-term memory to retain all that knowledge until after he was mutated. So he basically COULD NOT LEARN it at all. Physically OR mentally. Rats are smart as animals go, but not THAT smart- nor do they particularly care about human affairs that do not directly concern or involve them.

pferreira
02-16-2017, 08:51 AM
One has to take into account that Splinter (at that point) would still think and act AS A RAT. He does not gain any of the thought processes or interests of a human until AFTER he is mutated, nor would he have enough long-term memory to retain all that knowledge until after he was mutated. So he basically COULD NOT LEARN it at all. Physically OR mentally. Rats are smart as animals go, but not THAT smart- nor do they particularly care about human affairs that do not directly concern or involve them.I totally agree, I remember in the first TMNT movie seeing the flashback of Splinter as a pet rat copying his master and it just seemed a little too implausible. Maybe because it was in live action it highlights this lack of logic more.

Tetsu Deinonychus
02-18-2017, 09:30 AM
They pretty distinctly say on the show that it's whichever animal one has most recently been with. And, to me it just makes more sense for a living creature with a brain (even if he is "just" a rat) to learn something than for mindless inanimate ooze to "know" something. I'm not saying it made sense to him until after he was mutated, though. But, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Both of our opinions are equally valid is all I'm trying to say here.

From a storytelling perspective (which to me is much more important) I prefer to have a fallen Master Yoshi to avenge and remember as it adds a nice (and sometimes not-so-nice) element to Splinter's character, and sets up a "cycle of revenge" story. But, the FW show and NES game did some neat things with the "will I ever be human again?" angle.

I think Nickelodeon Splinter strikes a nice balance by having Splinter be Yoshi, but bringing Tang Shen back into the mix as the lost loved one. And, IDW Splinter may have the best origin yet having been both Yoshi *and* an ordinary rat. But, out of the two "classic" takes on Splinter's origin I personally prefer the Mirage version for the reasons stated above, but that's just me.

Utrommaniac
02-18-2017, 10:04 AM
Plus, the IDW Splinter gives Splinter a reason to care about human activities as a rat - because of the pshychotropic serum making his past human life reawaken and recognize human activities as something to pay attention to.

TMNT might have some silly concepts, but for the most part, it tries to remember that animals are just animals before they are mutated, which is why Splinter taking interest in martial arts as an ordinary rat is implausible.

MsMarvelDuckie
02-18-2017, 01:15 PM
They pretty distinctly say on the show that it's whichever animal one has most recently been with. And, to me it just makes more sense for a living creature with a brain (even if he is "just" a rat) to learn something than for mindless inanimate ooze to "know" something. I'm not saying it made sense to him until after he was mutated, though. But, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Both of our opinions are equally valid is all I'm trying to say here.

From a storytelling perspective (which to me is much more important) I prefer to have a fallen Master Yoshi to avenge and remember as it adds a nice (and sometimes not-so-nice) element to Splinter's character, and sets up a "cycle of revenge" story. But, the FW show and NES game did some neat things with the "will I ever be human again?" angle.

I think Nickelodeon Splinter strikes a nice balance by having Splinter be Yoshi, but bringing Tang Shen back into the mix as the lost loved one. And, IDW Splinter may have the best origin yet having been both Yoshi *and* an ordinary rat. But, out of the two "classic" takes on Splinter's origin I personally prefer the Mirage version for the reasons stated above, but that's just me.


I think you're taking that line way too literally. Even as a kid I understood that it simply meant "the animals he had most recently had physical contact with". In other words, the rats had left behind bits of fur or whatever on him. Playing with turtles without washing afterward is known to cause salmonella so Yoshi would no doubt have done so. Its much harder to get rat hair off one's clothes though. Thus even if he had washed up there could still be some left. So it makes perfect sense.

As for the mutagen it doesn't have to "KNOW" anything. It is a chemical gene-splicing catalyst and nothing more. It just fuses whatever DNA is present- basically a case of instant mass genetic recombination. It happens spontaneously even IRL with frogs living in chemically polluted water. They come our with missing, deformed or extra limbs, don't fully metamorphose from the tadpole state, or develop other unusual traits. All it takes is the right circumstances to mutate a living creature. Krang apparently had the "ultimate" recipe for instant gene-splicing!

I actually agree with you that Splinter as Yoshi makes more sense, and Nick's version combines the two origins well. However, I also think that you missed a major detail of the OT origin's story, in that it was STILL basically a story of revenge. Yoshi himself would have just as much (actually even more) reason to seek vengeance (or perhaps justice in his eyes) for what was done to him as a rat that was merely his pet would. Think about it- the feud beteew him and Shredder started because Saki plotted to have Yoshi expelled from the Foot, then came after him to kill him but ended up mutating him into a rat instead. Is Splinter supposed to just lie down and take it without some kind of action? Would YOU? (Zen ninja master or not, he had a pouch with evidence of Saki's treason against the Foot so clearly he intended to do SOMETHING.) Yoshi doesn't even have to ever be human again to make it an interesting storyline.

Tetsu Deinonychus
03-18-2017, 10:39 AM
Playing with turtles without washing afterward is known to cause salmonella so Yoshi would no doubt have done so.
He washed up after handling those filthy turtles but not after petting those nice clean sewer rats? J/K

Also, I think killing somebody you're close to is worse that stealing your job, but fair point that he has a reason to strike back against Shredder either way.

We're never going to agree on this subject, but isn't that okay. I think it's more fun that way. :)

One thing I like about the versions where he was a rat all along is how he's more of a morally grey "trickster mentor", which I think is very interesting. While the versions where he was Yoshi himself have him more distinctly "good" and direct.