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turtlefanforever
03-10-2017, 06:50 AM
Did anyone not bother watching TMNT OOTS at all? Not even illegally/for free?

Ninturtle
03-10-2017, 08:11 AM
I didn't, I was going to eatch it illegally to make fun of the movie with a friend while but haven't gotten around to it.

Andrew NDB
03-10-2017, 10:48 AM
I most certainly did not.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
03-10-2017, 10:54 AM
Yo, you rang?

Metalwolf
03-11-2017, 10:17 AM
I haven't seen it either.

I wanted to, I thought about it, then thought, "Nah, my time could be better spent doing something else.'

Candy Kappa
03-11-2017, 11:55 AM
I wish I didn't see it.

IndigoErth
03-11-2017, 12:53 PM
I most certainly did not.
Admit I laughed. Read it like: *stomps foot down* Hmph!



To each you guys' own, and while the major plot line sucks, I don't regret seeing the second. After the treatment of the Turtles in the first, I needed their better treatment in this one - as the stars and people in their own film rather than just as sentient props/plot devices - to cleanse the palate. The first just left me too depressed to want to leave it at that.

Rooish
03-11-2017, 03:44 PM
Finally did watch it just now.

I liked it a lot more than the first one.

Cryomancer
03-11-2017, 04:21 PM
Haven't bothered, no. Is there a Rifftrax yet?

Utrommaniac
03-11-2017, 04:41 PM
Doesn't look like it. They still have it for the 2014, though.

And I did watch it, knowing it would be awful. Because I wanted something bad to watch and it was released around my birthday. So...I downed a margherita and went to it, expecting an empty house. But it was PACKED.

The Boston Ninja Turtle
03-11-2017, 04:49 PM
does cinema sins count?

neatoman
03-12-2017, 01:54 AM
I wish I hadn't watched this abomination. Just as a movie it's arguably the worst TMNT movie ever and that says a lot.

DarkFell
03-12-2017, 03:03 AM
does cinema sins count?
I was just going to ask this very same question. I'll even throw in a Midnight Screenings Rant mention too.

Funny thing was I sorta wanted to go watch OOTS at a nearby drafthouse, but lost interest in that idea.

I even toyed with the thought of renting a copy from Red Box. Never followed up on that idea either.

Andrew NDB
03-12-2017, 03:08 AM
does cinema sins count?

I watched that. It was conservative.

ssjup81
03-12-2017, 04:16 AM
Did anyone not bother watching TMNT OOTS at all? Not even illegally/for free?Despite my having an actual miniscule interest, no I have not seen this film. I've never seen the other Bay produced film either, but the only thing I wanted to see from that was the elevator scene. lol

LeotheLateBloomer
03-12-2017, 11:15 AM
And you can just do that by watching it on YouTube. Or Nick's version, which is infinitely better.:lol:

HeroTurtlesFan
03-13-2017, 07:38 AM
I haven't watched it yet, time is very valuable - but I'm sure I will see it eventually.

ToTheNines
03-13-2017, 08:10 AM
I sure wish I didn't.

The first one sucks, but it was a decent night out at the movies. Some action, some laughs, and it didn't run too long. The production/script problems were plain as day, but I'd say between Bay's alien thing and whoever the hell wanted white Shredder, we got the best possible platinum dunes version.

OotS was total sh*t. And there was apparently no quarrel with what kind of crap it was intended to be. Small in scope, lacking in character motivations (at least Sachs wanted to get rich!), "fight" scenes for toddlers, coupled with inexplicable sexual stuff and swear words.

I used my free ticket that came with Beyond the Known Universe for that one. They deserved to lose all the money they did on that turd.

Kingoji
03-13-2017, 09:41 AM
*raises hand* Unseen.

biganimefan
03-13-2017, 10:50 AM
Seen it. TMNT III is better

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
03-13-2017, 11:03 AM
I sure wish I didn't.

The first one sucks, but it was a decent night out at the movies. Some action, some laughs, and it didn't run too long. The production/script problems were plain as day, but I'd say between Bay's alien thing and whoever the hell wanted white Shredder, we got the best possible platinum dunes version.

OotS was total sh*t. And there was apparently no quarrel with what kind of crap it was intended to be. Small in scope, lacking in character motivations (at least Sachs wanted to get rich!), "fight" scenes for toddlers, coupled with inexplicable sexual stuff and swear words.

I used my free ticket that came with Beyond the Known Universe for that one. They deserved to lose all the money they did on that turd.

And other people wonder why you drink so much! :trazz:

DestronMirage22
03-13-2017, 11:27 AM
Kinda envy those who haven't seen it. That's two hours of my life I'll never get back.

ProphetofGanja
03-13-2017, 07:53 PM
I'm having a Bad Movie Night but I had to stop it not even a third of the way in. Now I'm watching Suicide Squad and this weird-ass clip show of a movie is somehow better

ToTheNines
03-13-2017, 08:32 PM
And other people wonder why you drink so much! :trazz:

One of many reasons lol

I'm having a Bad Movie Night but I had to stop it not even a third of the way in. Now I'm watching Suicide Squad and this weird-ass clip show of a movie is somehow better

How many songs have played so far?

ProphetofGanja
03-13-2017, 08:37 PM
One of many reasons lol



How many songs have played so far?

😂 😂 😂 dozens, I lost count after the first ten minutes

Galactus
03-14-2017, 05:01 PM
I did see it.

For a while I was completely against seeing it, even with morbid curiosity of how much of a mess it would be I was determined not to reward a movie I felt was poorly made. Strangely it tanking at the box office made me change my mind. As if I wasn't making a difference. I was able to catch it at the cinema.

Rooish
03-17-2017, 06:27 PM
I did think the movie tried to have more heart and get "back to the roots" than the first PD film.

It honestly felt more like the TMNT than TMNT (2007) did.

neatoman
03-17-2017, 06:55 PM
I did think the movie tried to have more heart and get "back to the roots" than the first PD film.

It honestly felt more like the TMNT than TMNT (2007) did.

If by "roots" you mean Playmates old template for merch, then sure, they certainly tried to emulate that. It's not accurate to call it "roots" though, if it was trying to get back to the roots it wouldn't really take characters and concepts from other adaptations, or at least not highlight them.

Rooish
03-17-2017, 07:32 PM
Well I don't mean Mirage obviously, but the early hype Fred Wolf / live action movie camaraderie feel.

Andrew NDB
03-18-2017, 12:28 AM
Well I don't mean Mirage obviously, but the early hype Fred Wolf / live action movie camaraderie feel.

Eh, what? Huh?

Walkabout
05-04-2017, 08:42 AM
Haven't seen the first Bay TMNT, haven't seen the second...couldn't bring myself to do it even on free to air.

Life's too short.

Wildcat
05-10-2017, 02:37 AM
Finally got around to watching it. I think it was much better than the first. Definitely more FW oriented but overall it's just more coherent.

My only complaint would be is this Shredder supposed to be the one from the first movie? It can't be but it's funny they make no mention of anyone taking his place. It's just...Shredder is back!

I guess if you wanna stretch your suspension of disbelief you could say this new replacement Shredder came around and got beat before the events of OOTS. We just never saw that happen.

Stephen
05-10-2017, 05:56 AM
I haven't seen either of them.

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 07:26 AM
Finally got around to watching it. I think it was much better than the first. Definitely more FW oriented but overall it's just more coherent.

My only complaint would be is this Shredder supposed to be the one from the first movie? It can't be but it's funny they make no mention of anyone taking his place. It's just...Shredder is back!

I guess if you wanna stretch your suspension of disbelief you could say this new replacement Shredder came around and got beat before the events of OOTS. We just never saw that happen.

Such harsh comments about this movie! :teek: To their credit, PD addressed several big issues they ran into with the first one...only no one went to the theater to find out. :lol: Good way to kill this particular franchise, but a risky move for those who want a rebooted TMNT movie in the future. If the property isn't viewed as profitable...

What is your issue with Shredder in this one? It's been a while since I saw 2014, but didn't he survive that movie? If so, I'm not sure what the problem is, unless you're referring to the actor switch between movies.

But I agree...OotS is better than the 2014 movie...MUCH better in my book. 2014 was a mess from beginning to end.

I'd say SotO slightly edges out OotS, simply for nostalgia. Both are about equally as nonsensical and such a departure from the turtles I enjoy. Fine popcorn flick. The 2014 movie set the bar super low for me, so this one was fine as there were absolutely no expectations.

Of course, take what I say with a grain. This site tends to hate the 2007 TMNT movie and I thought it was great. It was like a Tales of the TMNT storyarc popped off the pages and onto the screen. And FINALLY we didn't have to fall back on Shredder as the main villain. So refreshing!

1990>2007>SotO>OotS>III=2014

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 11:20 AM
Such harsh comments about this movie! :teek: To their credit, PD addressed several big issues they ran into with the first one

Like how to make an even crappier movie? They succeeded.

...only no one went to the theater to find out. :lol: Good way to kill this particular franchise, but a risky move for those who want a rebooted TMNT movie in the future. If the property isn't viewed as profitable...

It didn't bomb so hard that it's radioactive. It bombed so hard that this iteration will never be revisited.

What is your issue with Shredder in this one? It's been a while since I saw 2014, but didn't he survive that movie?

He fell off a building and it's never really said. Who cares, though? His dignity (or the film's) didn't.

I'd say SotO slightly edges out OotS, simply for nostalgia.

Why is that a get-out-of-jail-free card?

Of course, take what I say with a grain. This site tends to hate the 2007 TMNT movie and I thought it was great.

Very little to like in it beyond the family stuff and the Raphael vs. Leonardo stuff. Felt like a bad Playstation 1 FMV come to life.

It was like a Tales of the TMNT storyarc popped off the pages and onto the screen. And FINALLY we didn't have to fall back on Shredder as the main villain. So refreshing!

Though it did trade hard on "Shredder is coming back! In the next one! Just hang on!!!"

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 12:27 PM
Like how to make an even crappier movie? They succeeded.

Do tell...what did you like better about the 2014 movie vs. the 2016 movie?



It didn't bomb so hard that it's radioactive. It bombed so hard that this iteration will never be revisited.

I realize that...but make enough TMNT movies that are commercial failures and eventually studios won't want to invest in them down the road. I think the best case scenario, even if you don't like the series much (to be clear, I don't), would be for this to have moderate success after 2-3 movies, wait a few years, and then reboot with a better vision and (hopefully) more money. I think the last thing any of us wants is for the property to fall into obscurity.


He fell off a building and it's never really said. Who cares, though? His dignity (or the film's) didn't.

We get it, you don't like the movie. Does insulting it so aggressively make you feel good? :roll:


Why is that a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not saying I like either very much. I liked SotO as a kid, but it didn't really hold up when viewed as an adult. I enjoyed it about as much as I did OotS when viewed the first time. I have no real desire to watch either again, but if I had to rank them, SotO would get the edge simply because of the nostalgia factor. Both movies are FAR behind the other two movies I ranked higher. I don't understand where a "get-out-of-jail-free card" factors in.

Very little to like in it beyond the family stuff and the Raphael vs. Leonardo stuff. Felt like a bad Playstation 1 FMV come to life.

I think that's just it...it ignored the campy stuff from the previous 2 films and focused mostly on family, which is a big part of why I like the property as a whole. I feel like a lot of the story revolved around the family dynamic and how it evolved since we last saw the Turtles. This "family stuff" came to a head when Leo and Raph finally worked out their differences on the rooftop...a really great scene. To me, the whole movie was about the family...any monster stuff was background noise...just something to deal with...not unlike many of the comics I'm so fond of.

But it sounds like you also have a problem with the graphics? Maybe the art style wasn't your thing, but I wouldn't call it poorly done...certainly wouldn't compare it to a bad PS1 FMV. A bit of an exaggeration, no?



Though it did trade hard on "Shredder is coming back! In the next one! Just hang on!!!"

Of course he was mentioned. I've resigned myself to the fact that mainstream TMNT media will never get away from the Shredder as the main antagonist for long. The general public wouldn't have it. It's the same reason the Joker pops up every time we see Batman. He has a host of interesting rogues, but everyone wants to see Joker. The same is true with the TMNT and Shredder.

But it was nice to not have to rely on him as the big bad. I think doing so allowed the movie to focus on the familial strife instead of the external threat.


For a fan of the TMNT, you sure seem to have a passionate distaste for a lot of the official media that's released. Is there anything that was officially licensed that's been put out in the last 15 years that you've liked? Honest question.

IndigoErth
05-10-2017, 12:28 PM
My only complaint would be is this Shredder supposed to be the one from the first movie? It can't be but it's funny they make no mention of anyone taking his place. It's just...Shredder is back!
Yeah, no offense to the actors, but the lack use of both Shredder and Karai kind of made the change pointless. In addition to no explanation for Shredder (which would have taken 10 seconds to explain on film), most annoying to me is that they pretty much just turned Karai into a Barbie doll who, for the most part, just stood around.

*sigh* Bay films...

http://i.imgur.com/ggGZqbu.gif

I mean.... cool, well thought out female characters with a purpose? Who does that? Inconceivable! :trolleye:

Realistically, she probably shouldn't have survived the snow chase, given the circumstances, so why even bother including her in the second if she has no role to play.


I'm still glad for other changes they made that granted some hopes I had for the second and it makes me like this one more, but the rest of the script supporting it is so weak...

FredWolfLeonardo
05-10-2017, 12:34 PM
It kinda makes me wonder how OOTS wouldve been if Shredder, Karai and Baxter were removed entirely and it was just Krang on earth commanding Bebop and Rocksteady.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 12:42 PM
For a fan of the TMNT, you sure seem to have a passionate distaste for a lot of the official media that's released.

It's not my fault it's largely rubbish. I'm not 6 years old and don't harbor any nostalgia for seeing Bebop, Rocksteady, and Turtlevans so I don't really fit into the demographic any of the media is shooting for.

Is there anything that was officially licensed that's been put out in the last 15 years that you've liked?

I enjoyed... aspects of the IDW comics. I like the reincarnation angle, for a TMNT universe. It would lend itself well to film, all of the flashbacks to Feudal Japan being a thing. Um, Shredder's design in IDW is pretty neat, too? #5 was pretty cool. 30th anniversary special they put out was bad-ass.

Do tell...what did you like better about the 2014 movie vs. the 2016 movie?

Well, I've only ever seen the 2014 movie, I haven't seen the 2016 movie. But I feel validated somewhere between the 2016 movie being the sum of all fears and this sort of marketing:

rARxrHcD-cI

Even though they actually didn't know what movie they were shooting when they shot 2014 (they didn't, they shot 3 versions of it), it's still a fairly harmless if insultingly un-TMNT-like experiment.

I realize that...but make enough TMNT movies that are commercial failures and eventually studios won't want to invest in them down the road. I think the best case scenario, even if you don't like the series much (to be clear, I don't), would be for this to have moderate success after 2-3 movies, wait a few years, and then reboot with a better vision and (hopefully) more money.

I'm sure that's the general idea.

I think the last thing any of us wants is for the property to fall into obscurity.

I'm very OK with obscurity if the alternative is mediocrity.

We get it, you don't like the movie. Does insulting it so aggressively make you feel good?

No. Why?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not saying I like either very much. I liked SotO as a kid, but it didn't really hold up when viewed as an adult. I enjoyed it about as much as I did OotS when viewed the first time. I have no real desire to watch either again, but if I had to rank them, SotO would get the edge simply because of the nostalgia factor. Both movies are FAR behind the other two movies I ranked higher. I don't understand where a "get-out-of-jail-free card" factors in.

I thought it was obvious. You're giving SotO extra points simple because of nostalgia. I see where you're coming from, but I don't think a thing deserves special protection from scrutiny or critique simply because it's something we saw when we were 8.

I think that's just it...it ignored the campy stuff from the previous 2 films and focused mostly on family, which is a big part of why I like the property as a whole. I feel like a lot of the story revolved around the family dynamic and how it evolved since we last saw the Turtles. This "family stuff" came to a head when Leo and Raph finally worked out their differences on the rooftop...a really great scene. To me, the whole movie was about the family...any monster stuff was background noise...just something to deal with...not unlike many of the comics I'm so fond of.

If they'd mostly stuck to the meat and bones of family, found a villain that wasn't 10 cartoonish monster things and an old guy named Monologue, they might have had something.

But it sounds like you also have a problem with the graphics?

A minor nit in the grand scheme of things. I'm not a fan of the designs in 2007 (mostly the humans bother me) but I would have forgiven that if it was a decent watch.

Of course he was mentioned. I've resigned myself to the fact that mainstream TMNT media will never get away from the Shredder as the main antagonist for long. The general public wouldn't have it. It's the same reason the Joker pops up every time we see Batman. He has a host of interesting rogues, but everyone wants to see Joker. The same is true with the TMNT and Shredder.

In mainstream, sure. In the source material he popped up and was killed. Showed up a couple of years later and was killed. He hasn't shown up since.

But it was nice to not have to rely on him as the big bad. I think doing so allowed the movie to focus on the familial strife instead of the external threat.

On a list of impressive things about 2007, I'd grant that. But it'd be a pretty short list.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 12:47 PM
Yeah, no offense to the actors, but the lack use of both Shredder and Karai kind of made the change pointless. In addition to no explanation for Shredder (which would have taken 10 seconds to explain on film), most annoying to me is that they pretty much just turned Karai into a Barbie doll who, for the most part, just stood around.

*sigh* Bay films...

Man, Karai has had a really, really rough time on the big screen. Three movies in a row she's been maligned.

2007, she gets smacked around and knocked out by April ****ing O'Neil. 2014 she does a whole lot of nothing, then "dies" in a truck collision on a mountain. 2016, it sounds like she de-ages 15 years and just does the whole lot of nothing part this time out? Damn.

I feel very bad for Minae Noji. Beautiful, beautiful woman and a picture perfect Karai. She was wasted on TMNT 2014.

FredWolfLeonardo
05-10-2017, 12:51 PM
Atleast she got to do Tang Shen and Alopex in the Nick Cartoon which I liked.

Karai in OOTS practically didnt exist. She stood around in the background of the whole film before being beat by Vernon and April at the end. I wonder why she was recast at all

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-10-2017, 12:53 PM
I don't understand why people think obscurity is such a bad thing. Probably 50% of all stories I enjoy are obscure or "niche."

IndigoErth
05-10-2017, 12:56 PM
It kinda makes me wonder how OOTS wouldve been if Shredder, Karai and Baxter were removed entirely and it was just Krang on earth commanding Bebop and Rocksteady.
Hmm... I dunno, Bebop and Rocksteady are generally Shredder's lackeys, so they sort of still need him, imo. But I wish the film had revolved more around Krang's doings.

Technically, this is an alien invasion film... but how many alien invasion movies exist where everything is resolved before anything bad actually happens? I mean, at least bring some destruction to the city and/or world first. Give the Turtles a verified evil thing to stop and save the day, for which the citizens are grateful for the unknown heroes.

As it stands, they can't report on who got rid of it or how, so what does the average citizen know? "There was a weird thing in the sky... then by dinner it was gone." They wouldn't even know if it was actually dangerous to them, even if likely assumed.


edit: Actually the film seems to span at least three days (in which no one seems to ever sleep and some never change clothing), so I take that back. But still.. three or more days and the object in the sky causes no actual harm. (edit: Wait, it doesn't show up until the last, right? It's such a mess I can't even remember now. lol)


Man, Karai has had a really, really rough time on the big screen. Three movies in a row she's been maligned.

2007, she gets smacked around and knocked out by April ****ing O'Neil. 2014 she does a whole lot of nothing, then "dies" in a truck collision on a mountain. 2016, it sounds like she de-ages 15 years and just does the whole lot of nothing part this time out? Damn.

I feel very bad for Minae Noji. Beautiful, beautiful woman and a picture perfect Karai. She was wasted on TMNT 2014.
Seriously a shame. She did a lot more in 2014 if that tells you anything. 2016... if I recall correctly, there is one tiny fight scene where she is immediately taken out with a chair. >.> Seems she was not only de-aged, but de-skilled.

FredWolfLeonardo
05-10-2017, 01:07 PM
Hmm... I dunno, Bebop and Rocksteady are generally Shredder's lackeys, so they sort of still need him, imo. But I wish the film had revolved more around Krang's doings.

Technically, this is an alien invasion film... but how many alien invasion movies exist where everything is resolved before anything bad actually happens? I mean, at least bring some destruction to the city and/or world first. Give the Turtles a verified evil thing to stop and save the day, for which the citizens are grateful for the unknown heroes.

As it stands, they can't report on who got rid of it or how, so what does the average citizen know? "There was a weird thing in the sky... then by dinner it was gone." They wouldn't even know if it was actually dangerous to them.

When you think about it, OOTS wouldve been a completely different film if there was no Shredder, Karai, Baxter and it just stuck to Krang as the big bad.

Shredder in 2014 and 2016 felt like completely different characters so he might as well have been killed off at the end of the first film. That way, the movie wouldve not been dwelling with the treasure hunt plot which overshadowed the actual invasion.

It wouldve started out like this: Krang invades earth but the turtles must stop him and the two mutant hechmen he created: Bebop and Rocksteady.

Relatively simple plot compared to what we got.

Infact, when you really think about it: Brad Gerret Krang could have some pretty funny banter with B and R like the FW cartoon. He could shout stuff like "creatants!" And "incompetent idiots!" while Brian Tee Shredder didnt have that kind of personality.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 01:13 PM
When you think about it, OOTS wouldve been a completely different film if there was no Shredder, Karai, Baxter and it just stuck to Krang as the big bad.

Shredder in 2014 and 2016 felt like completely different characters so he might as well have been killed off at the end of the first film. That way, the movie wouldve not been dwelling with the treasure hunt plot which overshadowed the actual invasion.

It wouldve started out like this: Krang invades earth but the turtles must stop him and the two mutant hechmen he created: Bebop and Rocksteady.

Relatively simple plot compared to what we got.

Infact, when you really think about it: Brad Gerret Krang could have some pretty funny banter with B and R like the FW cartoon. He could shout stuff like "creatants!" And "incompetent idiots!" while Brian Tee Shredder didnt have that kind of personality.

I don't know if all of that sounds a lot worse but it definitely doesn't sound one iota better.

FredWolfLeonardo
05-10-2017, 01:23 PM
I don't know if all of that sounds a lot worse but it definitely doesn't sound one iota better.

As a film, atleast its better to have a very simple plot (alien invades earth, defeat alien) rather tha have alot of moments slapped together with the main plot point (alien invasion) at the very end.

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 01:26 PM
Man, Karai has had a really, really rough time on the big screen. Three movies in a row she's been maligned.

2007, she gets smacked around and knocked out by April ****ing O'Neil. 2014 she does a whole lot of nothing, then "dies" in a truck collision on a mountain. 2016, it sounds like she de-ages 15 years and just does the whole lot of nothing part this time out? Damn.


We may not see eye-to-eye very often when it comes to TMNT (or life, from the sounds of it), but I agree with you on Karai's treatment. She was VERY highly skilled in the original Mirage comics, sent in to clean up Shredder's mess. Mirage and the Tournament Fighters game were really the only platforms that showed Karai for the force she was, possibly being even more skilled than Shredder himself.

It seems that most versions since then have adopted the Father/Daughter angle with Shredder/Karai, so I think that might be here to stay. She showed reasonable skill in 2007, but no version of Karai should ever be beaten in physical combat by April. As others have said, she was completely useless in the Bay movies. May as well have been another henchman.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 01:31 PM
We may not see eye-to-eye very often when it comes to TMNT (or life, from the sounds of it), but I agree with you on Karai's treatment. She was VERY highly skilled in the original Mirage comics, sent in to clean up Shredder's mess. Mirage and the Tournament Fighters game were really the only platforms that showed Karai for the force she was, possibly being even more skilled than Shredder himself.

It seems that most versions since then have adopted the Father/Daughter angle with Shredder/Karai, so I think that might be here to stay. She showed reasonable skill in 2007, but no version of Karai should ever be beaten in physical combat by April. As others have said, she was completely useless in the Bay movies. May as well have been another henchman.

I've gone on and on about this before in other threads, but it's truly baffling to me that more fans -- particularly female fans -- aren't up in arms about this. As you said, in Mirage she was a leader, a grown woman (with an 18 year old daughter, to boot), an individual in charge of the entire Foot (not just the New York branch) who came to NY to clean up the mess after Saki's death. Every universe since then, she's been Shredder's daughter and some kind of underling, constantly looking for approval from him while getting smacked around by the Turtles or others... as if TPTB can find no place for Karai unless she's attached at the hip to a "stronger" male character.

Kind of infuriating. Less that TPTB keeps finding new and equally questionable ways to do that with her, but more that it doesn't appear to bother much of anyone.

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 01:36 PM
I don't understand why people think obscurity is such a bad thing. Probably 50% of all stories I enjoy are obscure or "niche."

I enjoy the IDW comics and the 2012 cartoon. I really enjoyed the 2k3 series and the 2007 movie.

I enjoy seeing a lot of artists at conventions convey their personal vision of the turtles.

I like walking into stores and seeing the turtles plastered over everything like they were in the late 80's/early 90's.

I enjoy sharing the franchise with my young sons and watching them enjoy it the way I did when I was young.

All of that would not exist if the turtles were relegated to an obscure comic title in the 80's.

Sure, I enjoy the original Mirage stuff probably best of all, but I also get a lot of enjoyment out of the new stuff coming out. The quality varies from great to poor, but I love that it's coming out. I hope the turtles have the longevity and relevance of Mickey Mouse, Superman, etc.

plastroncafe
05-10-2017, 01:43 PM
I still haven't seen the movie, so I can't really speak to anything that happens in it outside of what's in the trailer.

As for Karai, good luck waiting for her to get a decent representation.

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 01:53 PM
My only complaint would be is this Shredder supposed to be the one from the first movie? It can't be but it's funny they make no mention of anyone taking his place. It's just...Shredder is back!

I guess if you wanna stretch your suspension of disbelief you could say this new replacement Shredder came around and got beat before the events of OOTS. We just never saw that happen.

Yeah, no offense to the actors, but the lack use of both Shredder and Karai kind of made the change pointless. In addition to no explanation for Shredder (which would have taken 10 seconds to explain on film), most annoying to me is that they pretty much just turned Karai into a Barbie doll who, for the most part, just stood around.


I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 02:01 PM
I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?

I'm guessing both, though probably moreso how we got from a bald, heavily scarred older Japanese guy to the suave villain from Tokyo Drift. Quick flashback or bit of dialogue about taking a bit of ooze to heal from his injuries (but just before the police grabbed him) would have worked. About Karai, some throwaway comment about, "My daughter was near death... I had my men give her some, too."

Though it really doesn't make any sense to me why they would even bother recasting Shredder and Karai at all. Brian Tee isn't a "name." Was it really important for kids to see a somewhat younger Shredder in there? It doesn't sound like either Karai or Shredder were even doing any heavy lifting in the movie.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-10-2017, 02:06 PM
I enjoy the IDW comics and the 2012 cartoon. I really enjoyed the 2k3 series and the 2007 movie.

I enjoy seeing a lot of artists at conventions convey their personal vision of the turtles.

I like walking into stores and seeing the turtles plastered over everything like they were in the late 80's/early 90's.

I enjoy sharing the franchise with my young sons and watching them enjoy it the way I did when I was young.

All of that would not exist if the turtles were relegated to an obscure comic title in the 80's.

Sure, I enjoy the original Mirage stuff probably best of all, but I also get a lot of enjoyment out of the new stuff coming out. The quality varies from great to poor, but I love that it's coming out. I hope the turtles have the longevity and relevance of Mickey Mouse, Superman, etc.

I'm not equating "obscure" with "Mirage only and nothing else ever happened."

I'm looking at the franchise as it is right now; if we weren't getting another cartoon (ugh), and if we were never getting another movie, and the IDW comics only made it another few years before ending... so what? It was a great ride (mostly downhill, from a certain point of view). Shows don't have to still be on the air to introduce your kids to them. The power of YouTube and DVDs is not to be scoffed at.

If the material coming out is worse and worse, obscurity is better. People stumble onto "obscure" stuff all the time. It's what friends and family are for. "Dude, read this." Hell, coworkers can serve that purpose, too. "How was your weekend?" "Badass, man... read this book!"

Obscure media is not unavailable media.

plastroncafe
05-10-2017, 02:09 PM
It's also not usually media that currently turning a profit.
So it's kind of unlikely that tmnt will find its way back to obscurity for a while.

And then when it does, and gets popular again, it'll get ruined when they try to make it mass market appealing again.

See: Fraction's run on Hawkeye.

IndigoErth
05-10-2017, 02:10 PM
I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?
Yes, the change of actor. It would be one thing if they changed him with someone still in the same age-range, but shredder became a lot younger; younger than Eric Sachs who he was, as stated in the 2014 film, "like a father to." :tlol:

He went from presumably an old man (albeit one curiously very capable in a robo-Shredder suit) to being in his upper 30s. Little bit of a stretch. (I know, I know, April in the old films changed, but the second actress is at least a believable replacement.)

Though they never mentioned Shredders name. It wouldn't have taken much to suggest that the Shredder in 2014 is maybe the father of 2016 Shredder.

I never assumed Shredder necessarily died in the first, since he was shown to move, but it would not have taken much effort or screen time to suggest in 2016 that he was injured and the old guy retired the position to his son, Saki.

It would have also given Shredder his own reason to actually hate the Turtles this time and want revenge, if the former Shredder was injured. Or later died from injuries if it went that route.

neatoman
05-10-2017, 02:10 PM
I've gone on and on about this before in other threads, but it's truly baffling to me that more fans -- particularly female fans -- aren't up in arms about this. As you said, in Mirage she was a leader, a grown woman (with an 18 year old daughter, to boot), an individual in charge of the entire Foot (not just the New York branch) who came to NY to clean up the mess after Saki's death. Every universe since then, she's been Shredder's daughter and some kind of underling, constantly looking for approval from him while getting smacked around by the Turtles or others... as if TPTB can find no place for Karai unless she's attached at the hip to a "stronger" male character.

Kind of infuriating. Less that TPTB keeps finding new and equally questionable ways to do that with her, but more that it doesn't appear to bother much of anyone.

If I had to guess, there are probaly far more fans and writers who have watched the 4Kids show than those who read any Mirage stories featuring Karai (or any Mirage stories, period).

When you consider that, can you really blame them? Most of those fans are just used to the daughter/underling version, so they don't question it. The writers mostly only know of that version and that it's the version more people are familiar with, so they write her accordingly.

4Kids is the lense through with the Mirage stories are perceived in popular culture. Not saying that's a good thing, just that it shouldn't be unexpected.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 02:51 PM
4Kids is the lense through with the Mirage stories are perceived in popular culture.

People should stop using it. It's fallacy.

Peter Palmer
05-10-2017, 02:59 PM
I'm not equating "obscure" with "Mirage only and nothing else ever happened."

I'm looking at the franchise as it is right now; if we weren't getting another cartoon (ugh), and if we were never getting another movie, and the IDW comics only made it another few years before ending... so what? It was a great ride (mostly downhill, from a certain point of view). Shows don't have to still be on the air to introduce your kids to them. The power of YouTube and DVDs is not to be scoffed at.

If the material coming out is worse and worse, obscurity is better. People stumble onto "obscure" stuff all the time. It's what friends and family are for. "Dude, read this." Hell, coworkers can serve that purpose, too. "How was your weekend?" "Badass, man... read this book!"

Obscure media is not unavailable media.

I think where we differ in thought is how we view turtle media trends. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster from the beginning. Highs during certain movies, shows, and comic runs, and lows during others. I don't think I'd say that things have been mostly downhill (where we differ). The comic has been pretty consistently enjoyable. I enjoy the show and it has seen pretty good success. The PD movies...ok, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows in turtle land, but we've received some good quality stuff in recent years, which in turn has turned more people on to the older stuff, which gives me more people to talk to about a hobby I like quite a bit. Again, that's something that wouldn't be attainable if things fell to obscurity long ago.

And it may be somewhat easy getting friends to get into things that you find interesting off a simple recommendation, but getting your kids interested is a different story. Kids tend to be into whatever is hot at the moment; whatever their friends are into.

My kids likely won't see the appeal of the '87 TMNT cartoon, Family Matters, Beetlejuice, or anything else I watched when I was little. That principle applies to why I never watched Happy Days, Three's Company, or Dallas. Could be quality shows, but my friends had no interest, so I didn't either. Kids tend to have herd mentality sometimes.

Maybe when they're older...

neatoman
05-10-2017, 03:04 PM
People should stop using it. It's fallacy.

They're most likely not going to, a lot of people seem like they would much rather watch a movie or a TV-show adaptation than go and read the book or comic it's based on, even if they ended up liking the adaptation they aren't interested in reading. "Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 03:21 PM
"Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?

I know a ton of people talking about the source material of those and comparing. Plenty of "The books are so much better!" grumblers about GoT and a lot of people saying, "It's an odd example where the show is way better than the books." Walking Dead, plenty of fans out there. Before Negan debuted on the show Facebook was afire with comic fans getting super excited because of what he does in the comics.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
05-10-2017, 03:41 PM
They're most likely not going to, a lot of people seem like they would much rather watch a movie or a TV-show adaptation than go and read the book or comic it's based on, even if they ended up liking the adaptation they aren't interested in reading. "Walking Dead" and "A Song of Ice and Fire" had both been running for years before their TV adaptations, yet do ever hear anyone talk about the source material?

ALL the time. If you haven't heard anyone talking about them, your friends must not read much.

Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles. :trazz:

I think where we differ in thought is how we view turtle media trends. It's been a bit of a rollercoaster from the beginning. Highs during certain movies, shows, and comic runs, and lows during others. I don't think I'd say that things have been mostly downhill (where we differ). The comic has been pretty consistently enjoyable. I enjoy the show and it has seen pretty good success. The PD movies...ok, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows in turtle land, but we've received some good quality stuff in recent years, which in turn has turned more people on to the older stuff, which gives me more people to talk to about a hobby I like quite a bit. Again, that's something that wouldn't be attainable if things fell to obscurity long ago.

And it may be somewhat easy getting friends to get into things that you find interesting off a simple recommendation, but getting your kids interested is a different story. Kids tend to be into whatever is hot at the moment; whatever their friends are into.

My kids likely won't see the appeal of the '87 TMNT cartoon, Family Matters, Beetlejuice, or anything else I watched when I was little. That principle applies to why I never watched Happy Days, Three's Company, or Dallas. Could be quality shows, but my friends had no interest, so I didn't either. Kids tend to have herd mentality sometimes.

Maybe when they're older...

Personal taste aside, I feel like the trend is downward for fans who came in back in the Mirage days. BUT the downward trend has upticks with each new resurgence of TMNT.

Give the cartoons long enough, and they get pretty bad. Fred Wolf, but I'm obviously a hater; 4Kids and Nick both lost their way as well... or, if you enjoyed the later seasons of both shows, you probably will admit that the shows radically changed the formula a couple of times to try to stay "fresh" with debatable effect.

When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie. When Nick was going stronger, we had (still have!) IDW comics and a couple of movies. But when the toys stop selling, the entire franchise starts sliding downhill again.

Aside from an enterprising filmmaker doing a truly good film series with a more Mirage-esque tone, I don't think we're going to make any progress back up the hill with the next iteration.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 03:44 PM
When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie.

God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.

neatoman
05-10-2017, 03:46 PM
I know a ton of people talking about the source material of those and comparing. Plenty of "The books are so much better!" grumblers about GoT and a lot of people saying, "It's an odd example where the show is way better than the books." Walking Dead, plenty of fans out there. Before Negan debuted on the show Facebook was afire with comic fans getting super excited because of what he does in the comics.



Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles. :trazz:


To be fair, I don't live in the US, so it might be more common to actually bother reading the source material there.

God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.

Why were they better in your opinion?

DestronMirage22
05-10-2017, 03:48 PM
God, I would take those days back, hand over fist. Warts and all.

I think a LOT of us would. Back when we were all younger, the future seemed so bright, and the franchise was still going strong. *sigh*

neatoman
05-10-2017, 03:51 PM
ALL the time. If you haven't heard anyone talking about them, your friends must not read much.

Or maybe my friends just read abnormal amounts of books and comics... which isn't unlikely given my social circles. :trazz:



Personal taste aside, I feel like the trend is downward for fans who came in back in the Mirage days. BUT the downward trend has upticks with each new resurgence of TMNT.

Give the cartoons long enough, and they get pretty bad. Fred Wolf, but I'm obviously a hater; 4Kids and Nick both lost their way as well... or, if you enjoyed the later seasons of both shows, you probably will admit that the shows radically changed the formula a couple of times to try to stay "fresh" with debatable effect.

When 4Kids was going well, we had Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2 going strong and a CGI movie. When Nick was going stronger, we had (still have!) IDW comics and a couple of movies. But when the toys stop selling, the entire franchise starts sliding downhill again.

Aside from an enterprising filmmaker doing a truly good film series with a more Mirage-esque tone, I don't think we're going to make any progress back up the hill with the next iteration.

In the case of the Nick Cartoon, I noticed it going downhill as early as season 2.

Andrew NDB
05-10-2017, 04:00 PM
Why were they better in your opinion?

While I didn't enjoy it -- like, at all -- 4Kids is probably a better "face" for TMNT kids cartoons out there. I didn't love the 2007 movie, but it is leagues better than either of the PD films.

Comics-wise? There's no comparison. We had Volume 4 going strong, new tales with adult Turtles told straight from the horse's mouth. And hell, the lettercol was sometimes just as entertaining as the comics. Tales V2? What's not to love? Existing Mirage vets and up and comers playing in the Mirage TMNT sandbox? 70 issues worth? Amazing. I wish I didn't take those days for granted.

IDW is well-written, but it's basically "Nostalgia: The Ongoing Series"... the biggest points of suspense being when and how they will introduce X character from X pre-existing show/movie/thing, and seemingly cramming it with as many mutants as humanly possible (basically the antithesis of Laird's vision for TMNT). Plus Nickelodeon doesn't even let them actually get their hands dirty. It's just... not TMNT to me, or at least not any TMNT I'm interested in reading about. It's like, a TMNT franchise homage. Pretty, appealing to fans that are super into everything TMNT ever or even just Fred Wolf casuals who are content just seeing Beebop and Rocksteady and pizza again, but fundamentally flawed in my book.

IDW is savvy, though. Mirage could have benefitted greatly from the level of their editorial and marketing teams.

Wildcat
05-10-2017, 11:46 PM
I'm still not 100% clear...what exactly were you guys wanting explained?

Are you guys wanting an explanation for the change in his look between movies? Or is the assumption that he died in the 1st movie and he's inexplicably back in the 2nd?Well as already answered by IndigoErth it would have been very easy to at least mention this new Shredder was a replacement.

In the 2014 movie it seems that he dies but even if he didn't how is he now younger than Eric Sachs?

Recasting is not the issue. The new guy is like a totally different character. Making the new guy his son would have worked perfectly.

Peter Palmer
05-11-2017, 06:48 AM
Well as already answered by IndigoErth it would have been very easy to at least mention this new Shredder was a replacement.

In the 2014 movie it seems that he dies but even if he didn't how is he now younger than Eric Sachs?

Recasting is not the issue. The new guy is like a totally different character. Making the new guy his son would have worked perfectly.

It's funny...I'm usually very conscious of things like continuity, just not when it came to these films. The 2014 movie was so rough that I took nothing as gospel as I went into 2016. So when he's appears drastically different in 2016, I didn't think anything of it. To be honest, it's obvious in retrospect, but I didn't even notice until you guys brought it up yesterday. :lol:

Candy Kappa
05-11-2017, 07:00 AM
I just took it as that the ooze that seeped into his hand at the end of 2014 rejuvenated him, since the ooze had regenerative properties.

Peter Palmer
05-11-2017, 07:08 AM
While I didn't enjoy it -- like, at all -- 4Kids is probably a better "face" for TMNT kids cartoons out there. I didn't love the 2007 movie, but it is leagues better than either of the PD films.

Comics-wise? There's no comparison. We had Volume 4 going strong, new tales with adult Turtles told straight from the horse's mouth. And hell, the lettercol was sometimes just as entertaining as the comics. Tales V2? What's not to love? Existing Mirage vets and up and comers playing in the Mirage TMNT sandbox? 70 issues worth? Amazing. I wish I didn't take those days for granted.

IDW is well-written, but it's basically "Nostalgia: The Ongoing Series"... the biggest points of suspense being when and how they will introduce X character from X pre-existing show/movie/thing, and seemingly cramming it with as many mutants as humanly possible (basically the antithesis of Laird's vision for TMNT). Plus Nickelodeon doesn't even let them actually get their hands dirty. It's just... not TMNT to me, or at least not any TMNT I'm interested in reading about. It's like, a TMNT franchise homage. Pretty, appealing to fans that are super into everything TMNT ever or even just Fred Wolf casuals who are content just seeing Beebop and Rocksteady and pizza again, but fundamentally flawed in my book.

IDW is savvy, though. Mirage could have benefitted greatly from the level of their editorial and marketing teams.

We got to see a lot of "Laird's vision" in the 2000's...and I liked it. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have long felt like the 2k3 series is almost like what the "Ultimate universe" was for Marvel around the same time period. It was a fresh start with many familiar characters and storylines present, but with a twist on the original. I sometimes think the 2k3 series is how Laird would have told the Mirage stories if Kevin weren't involved. Add in the Volume 4 comic and you got to see how Laird viewed the turtles 15 or so years down the line. It wasn't always the most exciting stuff, but it was certainly interesting.

With so many people working on the IDW comic, I'm not sure that comic can be considered "Kevin's vision", but he does endorse it and it has found nice success. I personally find myself more intrigued by the new characters in the comic...doesn't really blow my mind when they introduce a "classic" character. Some were done well while some were a little forced. Though I will say that while I have no real love for Bebop & Rocksteady from the 80's, I thoroughly enjoyed their introduction in the IDW series. And as far as getting their hands dirty, I think Leo not killing anyone during his stint as Dark Leo and giving him something to weigh on his conscience for a while was the biggest misstep of the first 30 issues. The turtles don't need to be non-stop murder machines, but they are trained in a deadly martial art and use deadly weapons, so I'd expect some casualties from time to time.

Andrew NDB
05-11-2017, 11:02 AM
We got to see a lot of "Laird's vision" in the 2000's...and I liked it. I don't know how everyone else feels, but I have long felt like the 2k3 series is almost like what the "Ultimate universe" was for Marvel around the same time period.

The cavalcade of toy shilling and camp and sight gags that abound each episode of 2K3, turning Mikey into Dude Mikey, insultingly bad "adaptations" of "Return to New York" and "City at War," and everything thrown in there for little kids pretty much kills it for me. Though it's nice to see little bits of Mirage flair here and there, even if it's mostly hidden under a metric ton of other rubbish.

But that's just me. I'm glad it exists, and that was the "new" TMNT cartoon for a generation in the wake of the Fred Wolf material.

I sometimes think the 2k3 series is how Laird would have told the Mirage stories if Kevin weren't involved.

I generally agree, but minus all the kiddie schlock, most of the camp, and minus the stuff injected into the episodes just for toys.

But that's a lot of stuff.

With so many people working on the IDW comic, I'm not sure that comic can be considered "Kevin's vision", but he does endorse it and it has found nice success.

We kind of all know what his role on the IDW book is. #1, his presence on the book in any capacity automatically gives it legitimacy for IDW. #2, he's basically an "ideas guy" that comes to the room and bounces ideas off of Waltz and probably comes up with some of the action beats. Knowing what he was pitching before IDW, I can guarantee you the parkour ninjas were 100% his idea. That kind of thing. #3, layouts, though I'm not sure if he's even doing that anymore?

I personally find myself more intrigued by the new characters in the comic...doesn't really blow my mind when they introduce a "classic" character. Some were done well while some were a little forced. Though I will say that while I have no real love for Bebop & Rocksteady from the 80's, I thoroughly enjoyed their introduction in the IDW series.

I would have forgiven their inclusion if simply to placate the fans, but as soon as you have Karai or Shredder actively employing such characters... whatever credibility Karai and Shredder have as cunning villains goes down to 0. And I like Karai and Shredder to have credibility.

And as far as getting their hands dirty, I think Leo not killing anyone during his stint as Dark Leo and giving him something to weigh on his conscience for a while was the biggest misstep of the first 30 issues. The turtles don't need to be non-stop murder machines, but they are trained in a deadly martial art and use deadly weapons, so I'd expect some casualties from time to time.

No consequences = no weight to anything. You can tell IDW pushed for that, though. They probably even began writing that arc with the idea that Leo would kill, then kind of were left holding the bag of **** when Nickelodeon came back with a hard "No" at the last minute.

Allio
05-12-2017, 05:17 AM
What's an OOTS? Sounds almost as stupid as Yamcha

Allio
05-12-2017, 05:25 AM
I did think the movie tried to have more heart and get "back to the roots" than the first PD film.

It honestly felt more like the TMNT than TMNT (2007) did.

TMNT 2007 was actually more like Mirage vol 4. So you either hated it, or loved it.

MrPliggins
05-12-2017, 06:49 AM
I didn't see OOTS until I was able to get it for free from the library. Not horrible, but nothing I care to watch again.

Peter Palmer
05-12-2017, 09:34 AM
Not horrible, but nothing I care to watch again.

This sums up my feelings for the movie in a nutshell.

Wesley
05-12-2017, 11:51 AM
I didn't. I watched the first film alright but had no interest in seeing the second one.

Andrew NDB
05-12-2017, 11:57 AM
TMNT 2007 was actually more like Mirage vol 4.

Eh, I would say it's the most like Mirage Vol. 4 over any of the existing 6 TMNT movies, sure, but that's not the same thing as saying it's like Mirage Vol. 4.

Netkeeper
05-12-2017, 12:05 PM
What's an OOTS? Sounds almost as stupid as Yamcha
http://68.media.tumblr.com/eb251cf018035f1f06491737e21a63bf/tumblr_nlyxoqhMyd1rnyeudo1_500.jpg

I didn't watch OOTS, but I also wouldn't have watched the one before it if dad hadn't grabbed it from the redbox

He may eventually grab OOTS from the redbox too if there's nothing else to watch in there and he wants a movie out of it, but I doubt it. idk maybe. He liked the first one just fine.

neatoman
05-12-2017, 12:52 PM
Hey, don't mock Yamcha! He just got his own series in which it turns out he has the greatest potential of all the characters... If he knew where things would be going that is...

FearlessLeader
06-10-2017, 11:08 PM
Seen it. TMNT III is better

I just realized how true this statement is and that makes me so sad.

I went to see it at a cheap theater with a friend who is also a fan when she was visiting.

Regretted it after. This film isn't even worth watching for free in my opinion.