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View Full Version : Are Razhar and Tokka underused?


FredWolfLeonardo
04-09-2017, 07:59 PM
I feel like they are one of those characters who have potential, but it has been vastly underused potential. They only appeared in one episode of the OT, tmnt SOTO, a small cameo in Turtles Forever and the Nick versions which are similar to the original only by name.

Do you feel that they should be used more? Me personally, while I found the SOTO versions funny and iconic, its the OT versions which got me thinking of how much potential they have as characters. Just in episode, I felt they left quite a mark as the scene with Razhar feeling regretful over Tokkas loss as his only friend and their strong bond as outcasts both felt very good. If their one episode appearance could leave such a mark, I imagine making them major characters a good move in tmnt history.

ToTheNines
04-09-2017, 08:17 PM
Nah. Their names are so nonsensical that I see why writers of modern TMNT avoid them. Nick got around it with the Michelangelo Name Game™ and making one an alien. But no one else is gonna bother.

TigerClaw
04-09-2017, 08:19 PM
I feel like they are one of those characters who have potential, but it has been vastly underused potential. They only appeared in one episode of the OT, tmnt SOTO, a small cameo in Turtles Forever and the Nick versions which are similar to the original only by name.

Do you feel that they should be used more? Me personally, while I found the SOTO versions funny and iconic, its the OT versions which got me thinking of how much potential they have as characters. Just in episode, I felt they left quite a mark as the scene with Razhar feeling regretful over Tokkas loss as his only friend and their strong bond as outcasts both felt very good. If their one episode appearance could leave such a mark, I imagine making them major characters a good move in tmnt history.
These are characters I could see appear on the IDW comics, and properly done.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 08:21 PM
Nah. Their names are so nonsensical .

Their names? How is Rahzar anymore nonsensical a name than a character with the name, "Slash" or "Metalhead" or "Herman the Crab."

ToTheNines
04-09-2017, 08:22 PM
Those are all real words you ****ing retard. Rahzar is jibberish.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 08:28 PM
What does that have to do with anything? Krang isn't a real word, and as far as I know its not a pun on anything either.

Rahzar sounds similar to the word "razor," so it's not that far out from its meaning given he has claws and is a wolf.

FredWolfLeonardo
04-09-2017, 08:32 PM
What does that have to do with anything? Krang isn't a real word, and as far as I know its not a pun on anything either.

Rahzar sounds similar to the word "razor," so it's not that far out from its meaning given he has claws and is a wolf.

It could also possibly be a based on the 'RRR' growling sound of canines in combination with Razor

ToTheNines
04-09-2017, 08:34 PM
Krang is an alien. Pay attention.

Rahzar, obviously, is a "badass" pun on razor. Still doesn't make sense why the Foot would start calling him that, or if he named himself. And your conformation bias game is strong here, as I see you're making no case for Tokka.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 08:34 PM
Jim Lawson also drew Rahzar and Tokka in the Archie adaption comic of the second movie. Pretty funny to see the way he drew them in the 90's.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 08:36 PM
Krang is an alien. Pay attention.

Rahzar, obviously, is a "badass" pun on razor. Still doesn't make sense why the Foot would start calling him that, or if he named himself. And your conformation bias game is strong here, as I see you're making no case for Tokka.

Tokka sounds like a Japanese word, like Godzilla. What's that huge giant Turtle that roams Japan in the Godzilla movies? I assume that's what Tokka is based on. In the Nick episode Casey even says it's a, "kaiju invasion."

ToTheNines
04-09-2017, 08:43 PM
Gamera? Keep reaching.

FredWolfLeonardo
04-09-2017, 08:45 PM
Tokka sounds like a Japanese word, like Godzilla. What's that huge giant Turtle that roams Japan in the Godzilla movies? I assume that's what Tokka is based on. In the Nick episode Casey even says it's a, "kaiju invasion."

Gamera is his name. I also assume that since snapping turtles are found in rainforests, that the word Tokka might've been inspired by the language of Jungle tribes? Maybe its not real in any language, but the word "Tokka" sounds like something a tribe in the jungle would say in reference to animals with sturdy shells.

Many other characters in tmnt don't have names exactly based off their animals but they sound similar, like Rocksteady which is a a type of music but you would associate it with a Rhinoceros due its rock like skin and tough exterior.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 08:51 PM
Yea, I assume Tokka was based on Gamera. He has a huge spiky shell and looks different than a regular mutant Turtle.

ToTheNines
04-09-2017, 08:54 PM
Gamera is his name. I also assume that since snapping turtles are found in rainforests, that the word Tokka might've been inspired by the language of Jungle tribes? Maybe its not real in any language, but the word "Tokka" sounds like something a tribe in the jungle would say in reference to animals with sturdy shells.

Many other characters in tmnt don't have names exactly based off their animals but they sound similar, like Rocksteady which is a a type of music but you would associate it with a Rhinoceros due its rock like skin and tough exterior.

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i48/5/3/1/fbz_f384ba1c4400bb8ca2c395b87757d486.jpg

Yea, I assume Tokka was based on Gamera. He has a huge spiky shell and looks different than a regular mutant Turtle.

That has nothing to do with his jibberish name.

DestronMirage22
04-09-2017, 09:22 PM
Yea, I assume Tokka was based on Gamera. He has a huge spiky shell and looks different than a regular mutant Turtle.

Alligator Snapping Turtle, dude: http://www.texasturtles.org/Alligator_snapper_op_800x604.jpg


I also agree with Nines about you guys trying so hard to justify the silly names. You guys are probably putting more effort in than the guys who named them.
And snapping turtles are found everywhere, not just in rainforests.

In regards to them not being used, they really serve no purpose. They're introduction was as one off characters used instead of Bebop and Rocksteady (for whatever reasons) and aren't characters with any depth. Their subsequent appearances haven't done anything for them, and Nick's attempts have just been pathetic. While I love the designs (especially Tokka) I wouldn't want to see them appear in IDW before other much better characters.

Powder
04-09-2017, 09:24 PM
No. Too much, maybe.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 09:44 PM
subsequent appearances haven't done anything for them, and Nick's attempts have just been pathetic. While I love the designs (especially Tokka) I wouldn't want to see them appear in IDW before other much better characters.

Nick's attempts have been pathetic? What on earth are you talking about? Nick's Rahzar flat out turned out to be the best incarnation of the character, and prove you can do more with Rahzar than just have him be a snarling wolf (like the second movie), or just a one-off character like the original cartoon.

Tokka made into a space Turtle was also fine because he would be too similar to Slash otherwise, so I saw no problem with it.

GoldMutant
04-09-2017, 09:47 PM
Nick's attempts have been pathetic? What on earth are you talking about? Nick's Rahzar flat out turned out to be the best incarnation of the character, and prove you can do more with Rahzar than just have him be a snarling wolf (like the second movie), or just a one-off character like the original cartoon.

Tokka made into a space Turtle was also fine because he would be too similar to Slash otherwise, so I saw no problem with it.

You remember when Rahzar, as Chris Bradford or Dogpound, did anything of relevance?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 09:50 PM
You remember when Rahzar, as Chris Bradford or Dogpound, did anything of relevance?

He's literally one of the major villains of the show and got some of the most amount of screentime of all the new characters. What on earth do you want? All of Shredder's henchmen in any series basically function the same exact way. Look at Hun during 4kids Seasons 1-3, basically the same thing.

DestronMirage22
04-09-2017, 09:58 PM
Nick's attempts have been pathetic? What on earth are you talking about? Nick's Rahzar flat out turned out to be the best incarnation of the character, and prove you can do more with Rahzar than just have him be a snarling wolf (like the second movie), or just a one-off character like the original cartoon.

Tokka made into a space Turtle was also fine because he would be too similar to Slash otherwise, so I saw no problem with it.

The whole "double-mutated" thing was completely idiotic, and both are just more examples of them slapping old names on their original characters for the sake of nostalgia or something.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 10:03 PM
The whole "double-mutated" thing was completely idiotic, and both are just more examples of them slapping old names on their original characters for the sake of nostalgia or something.

You're joking, right? Why can't a character who falls into mutagen again transform once more? If anything that makes a lot of sense, and is something that is oddly not explored much in any other series.

Also I don't know why the hell you keep saying they slap an old name on him. He's a wolf mutant, that's all Rahzar is. Except now he has an actual backstory instead of just being a random mutant. I imagine in future incarnations the Nick version will become the definitive version of the character.

GoldMutant
04-09-2017, 10:04 PM
He's literally one of the major villains of the show and got some of the most amount of screentime of all the new characters. What on earth do you want? All of Shredder's henchmen in any series basically function the same exact way. Look at Hun during 4kids Seasons 1-3, basically the same thing.

Name one relevant thing he's done since that second mutation as an individual. The only two things he's done is hunt key items (retromutagen and Kuro Kabuto) and team with Fishface to find Karai. He's done nothing since season 1 and 2 to stand out. No amount of screentime is going to make up the fact he's there only for action scenes since then.

Also, your Hun example, as it was when compared to Tiger Claw before, is again wrong. You know why Hun was remembered? He actually served as more than a henchman, he was his own character; he served Ch'rell before leading the Purple Dragons from being a small time gang to a criminal organization. Compare that to Rahzar, a lowly henchman who serves as action fodder despite having a promising start when struggling with humanity and was Shredder's top student. See the difference in impact?

The second Rahzar became stagnant, literally any character can dispense him. Scale Tail, Scratch, any character. At least his design is badass, I'll give it that.

FredWolfLeonardo
04-09-2017, 10:04 PM
I liked the Nick versions, despite their differences from the originals. I particularly liked not making Tokka a Slash clone.

I guess the best chance to make them established characters would've been to expand their OT versions by revealing their origins and making them recurring characters like the Rat King and Baxter Stockman.

I hope some future tmnt version expands upon their OT incarnations which I think had the most potential since they were much more intellegent than SOTO.

They also had character since they were depicted as savage outcasts yet very close friends who deeply cared for each other, attacking anyone who threatened to seperate them.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 10:10 PM
Name one relevant thing he's done since that second mutation as an individual. The only two things he's done is hunt key items (retromutagen and Kuro Kabuto) and team with Fishface to find Karai. He's done nothing since season 1 and 2 to stand out. No amount of screentime is going to make up the fact he's there only for action scenes since then.

Rahzar did all that you mentioned, had all of Seasons 1-2 where he developed, and he functioned as Shredder's henchmen for most of his run before he died and Kavaxas used him. Again, it's the same henchmen role any other character has in any series.

Also, your Hun example, as it was when compared to Tiger Claw before, is again wrong. You know why Hun was remembered? He actually served as more than a henchman, he was his own character; he served Ch'rell before leading the Purple Dragons from being a small time gang to a criminal organization. Compare that to Rahzar, a lowly henchman who serves as action fodder despite having a promising start when struggling with humanity and was Shredder's top student. See the difference in impact?

Outside of some backstory with Hun and the Purple Dragons and with Casey, for the majority of his appearances in Seasons 1-3, all Hun did was appear in the Shredder episodes as another henchmen to fight outside the Foot or Elite Guards. It wasn't until Season 4 after Ch'rell was gone that Hun started to breakout into his own character.

Go look at Hun's appearance in, "The Shredder Strikes, "Shredder Strikes Back," "Return to New York," "Secret Origins, "Rogue in the House," "City at War," or "Exodus." His literal only role was to be another henchmen for the Turtles to fight.

His character developed in some Season 3 eps otherwise where he had a rivalry with Baxter and Karai and "Hun on the Run" of course, but not so much in the others until Season 4.

FredWolfLeonardo
04-09-2017, 10:20 PM
I've added a poll. Place your votes in!

DestronMirage22
04-09-2017, 10:22 PM
You're joking, right? Why can't a character who falls into mutagen again transform once more? If anything that makes a lot of sense, and is something that is oddly not explored much in any other series.

Also I don't know why the hell you keep saying they slap an old name on him. He's a wolf mutant, that's all Rahzar is. Except now he has an actual backstory instead of just being a random mutant. I imagine in future incarnations the Nick version will become the definitive version of the character.

I'm not gonna keep arguing with you about this. What I said still stands, and you've obviously put this show on a high enough pedestal that you can't even see it's own shortcomings.

CyberCubed
04-09-2017, 10:24 PM
I'm not gonna keep arguing with you about this. What I said still stands, and you've obviously put this show on a high enough pedestal that you can't even see it's own shortcomings.

What on earth does that have anything to do with me thinking double mutation is an ok concept, or saying Rahzar is true to what the character is, essentially a wolf? I'm not even commenting on the Nick cartoon itself here, just the character origins.

ToTheNines
04-10-2017, 05:30 AM
I guess I already knew this, but wow... cubed is awful at debating.

neatoman
04-10-2017, 05:58 AM
Before watching OotS, my opinion was no. After watching OotS, I seriously wished they had been in the movie instead of Bebop and Rocksteady, so yeah, my opinion is kinda yes.

TigerClaw
04-10-2017, 09:16 AM
Before watching OotS, my opinion was no. After watching OotS, I seriously wished they had been in the movie instead of Bebop and Rocksteady, so yeah, my opinion is kinda yes.
I disagree, I think Bebop and Rocksteady were far better then Rahzar and Tokka, They had more to do then them.

neatoman
04-10-2017, 10:38 AM
I disagree, I think Bebop and Rocksteady were far better then Rahzar and Tokka, They had more to do then them.

When "more to do" amounts to dick jokes, fart jokes, fat jokes and slop jokes, I'm pretty sure confusing the word master for mama comes across as welcome.

plastroncafe
04-10-2017, 10:45 AM
Nah.
I've got no patience for incompetent henchmen.

Andrew NDB
04-10-2017, 11:30 AM
They weren't good characters to begin with. Burning calories to somehow force them into "cool" characters seem like a dumb pursuit. Why not burn those calories into making new characters?

GoldMutant
04-10-2017, 12:11 PM
Rahzar did all that you mentioned, had all of Seasons 1-2 where he developed, and he functioned as Shredder's henchmen for most of his run before he died and Kavaxas used him. Again, it's the same henchmen role any other character has in any series.

His character developed in some Season 3 eps otherwise where he had a rivalry with Baxter and Karai and "Hun on the Run" of course, but not so much in the others until Season 4.

Let me repeat what I clearly stated: one individual thing he's done after the first two seasons. He's done nothing but serve as fodder.

Other henchmen, whether it be Hun or Karai (in 2k3 until she went solo), have done something of use to advance the story further. Rahzar has not and as I already stated he, alongside Tiger Claw or Xever, can easily be dispensed for another character. He's a blank state of a character since season 2, his design being the only good thing of him (besides Clancy Brown's voice, it seems fitting)

Outside of some backstory with Hun and the Purple Dragons and with Casey, for the majority of his appearances in Seasons 1-3, all Hun did was appear in the Shredder episodes as another henchmen to fight outside the Foot or Elite Guards. It wasn't until Season 4 after Ch'rell was gone that Hun started to breakout into his own character.

Go look at Hun's appearance in, "The Shredder Strikes, "Shredder Strikes Back," "Return to New York," "Secret Origins, "Rogue in the House," "City at War," or "Exodus." His literal only role was to be another henchmen for the Turtles to fight.

His character developed in some Season 3 eps otherwise where he had a rivalry with Baxter and Karai and "Hun on the Run" of course, but not so much in the others until Season 4.

Again, I said this:

You know why Hun was remembered? He actually served as more than a henchman, he was his own character; he served Ch'rell before leading the Purple Dragons from being a small time gang to a criminal organization. Compare that to Rahzar, a lowly henchman who serves as action fodder despite having a promising start when struggling with humanity and was Shredder's top student. See the difference in impact?

Hun actually developed, Rahzar didn't. The fact is the writing in 2k3 fleshed out Hun to be more than a generic bruiser. Rahzar has not had that opportunity at all; not withstanding seasons 1 and 2 with his backstory and mutations, he's just there. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.
_________________________________

As for the original question which I forgot to answer last time, they've both appeared three times now: Secret of the Ooze with their debut, Nick, and Fred Wolf. (technically six with Manhattan Project, Turtles in Time, and a brief cameo in Turtles Forever)

Honestly, Rahzar and Tokka aren't as engaging as I once thought. Their designs, especially the Nick ones, are very good. Otherwise, I don't really care for them as they're just generic, only one's a wolf and one's a turtle. I'd much rather have Groundchuck and Dirtbag make a comeback or introduce some new faces again as the heavy hitting monster duo.

CyberCubed
04-10-2017, 12:31 PM
I told you what Rahzar did in Nick. Yes, it's true he didn't have much in the way of focus episodes, but that didn't matter because he functioned as the typical Shredder mutant henchmen. I agree with you 4kids Hun developed as it went on, but for the first 3 seasons he was largely stagnant outside of maybe one or two episodes like, "Hun on the Run."

Also Rahzar in general, a mutant wolf, is damn cool. I think people just love the idea of a mutant wolf being around, and that's what makes him stand out. I can't think of any other mutants similar to him, besides whatever the hell Dreadmon is.

TigerClaw
04-10-2017, 01:00 PM
I told you what Rahzar did in Nick. Yes, it's true he didn't have much in the way of focus episodes, but that didn't matter because he functioned as the typical Shredder mutant henchmen. I agree with you 4kids Hun developed as it went on, but for the first 3 seasons he was largely stagnant outside of maybe one or two episodes like, "Hun on the Run."

Also Rahzar in general, a mutant wolf, is damn cool. I think people just love the idea of a mutant wolf being around, and that's what makes him stand out. I can't think of any other mutants similar to him, besides whatever the hell Dreadmon is.
Dreadmon is more of a Werewolf then a mutant, since his change was magic based.

The IDW comic made him a mutant however.
http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadmon_(IDW)

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/7/75/Dreadmonidw.png/revision/latest?cb=20170323053429

Andrew NDB
04-10-2017, 01:10 PM
Nick and IDW definitely don't share Laird's "A whole bunch of other mutants running around make the TMNT less unique."

Like, at all.

ToTheNines
04-10-2017, 02:03 PM
They weren't good characters to begin with. Burning calories to somehow force them into "cool" characters seem like a dumb pursuit. Why not burn those calories into making new characters?

Because everyone here is on Memberberries.

They're just two mindless, powerful monsters. Their only "personality trait" is that they're ****ing babies lol. It was cool to see them in other media as a kid, and Nick had their fun with them, but these two are best left in the 90's.

CyberCubed
04-10-2017, 02:43 PM
What's the difference between all the other old random mutants they brought back? Mondo Gecko is a parody of an 80's skateboarding teenager, yet everyone loses their minds whenever he's brought back into a new series.

ToTheNines
04-10-2017, 02:52 PM
First of all, no one "lost their mind" over Mondo ****ing Gecko.

But he's a friend of Mikey's, and it's always cool to see the guys have friends outside of the family. And Nick had him voiced, by a former Michelangelo VA. Of course people got excited.

Also, the writers didn't have to literally invent a "jungle language" and make up FAKE Japanese words to give him his name in the story.

CyberCubed
04-10-2017, 03:34 PM
I also meant IDW's Mondo Gecko too, and he's been well received with people saying, "I'm glad he's back" when he first appeared.

I mean I realize the only main reason we all still like these characters is because of our nostalgia for the original show, Archie comics, and the toys and videogames, but even then you still see more love for old characters than the newly created ones. Outside of Old Hob and maybe Tiger Claw and Fishface, none of the other majorly new IDW/Nick characters are all that popular.

FredWolfLeonardo
04-10-2017, 04:08 PM
My idea for Tokka and Razhar in the next incarnation of tmnt would be a darker and more tragic take on the characters, a blend of the Secret of the Ooze and Fred Wolf versions. So while Bebop and Rocksteady are known in tmnt as goofy henchmen, Razhar and Tokka are the sympathetic ones.

They both start out as a wolf cub and a baby snapping turtle who are taken in by the foot early on for experiments. They are mutated early on in their life, but are subject to vicious experiments designed to turn them into super soldiers. As a result, both of the mutants (especially Tokka) have suffered from developmental disorders which causes their speech to be stunted and slurred, often only communicating in grunts and cries.

When they have grown into semi-adults, the two are forced to fight the turtles by the Shredder for his own gain. However, both are naturally docile and scared and don't want to fight the turtles despite their enormous physical strength. As a result of their failures, the shredder punishes them brutally and this causes Razhar especially to snap and escape the foot with his younger "brother".

Both mutants then spend their days hiding out in the streets, being shunned by humanity wherever they go, only having each other for friends. Razhar is especially overprotective of Tokka due to the relatively higher abuse that he endured in comparison to Razhar due to his lower intelligence. Whenever, they both encounter the turtles, their first instinct is to fight them because they have learned to associate the turtles with the horrific abuse that they endured at the hands of the Shredder.

Eventually however, both slowly learn to comprehend human language and develop speech over the course of the story, becoming more intelligent. It is only time that their newfound reasoning faculties lead them to learn more about the turtles in order to kill them. However, when they learn that the turtles are outcasts as well and on a quest for good, they have a change of heart and ally themselves with the turtles, vowing to help take down the Shredder together.

neatoman
04-10-2017, 04:26 PM
I don't know, wouldn't it just be better to have them be monsters rather than try to make them more intelligent?

FredWolfLeonardo
04-10-2017, 04:29 PM
I don't know, wouldn't it just be better to have them be monsters rather than try to make them more intelligent?

They could be both. Savage brutes who can't speak and express themselves but still have feelings. They could learn how to slowly speak over time, but only learn the basics by the end since in the idea in my post, their development has been damaged by their harsh upbringing by the shredder.

Make them intelligent enough so you can understand their feelings and they are relatable but not so intelligent so that the audience still feels sympathetic for them due to their disabilities. Basically a cross between their depiction in SOTO and that one episode of the OT.

TigerClaw
04-10-2017, 05:30 PM
I like the version of Razhar and Tokka that were in the Fred Wolf series, they were a little more intelligent, and Razhar was trying to protect his friend Tokka, When they were attacked by the Turtles.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/Jabroniville/TMNT/Tmnt02d.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/Jabroniville/media/TMNT/Tmnt02d.jpg.html)

Coola Yagami
04-11-2017, 09:42 PM
I just feel bad because we never saw Tokka reunite with Rahzar afterwards.

I always found it interesting that Tokka is basically what a real mutant turtle would look like. Our guys have always looked basically like weird faced bald humans with shells. Tokka was full on realistic non-cute mutant turtle.

Tetsu Deinonychus
04-12-2017, 01:41 PM
I just feel bad because we never saw Tokka reunite with Rahzar afterwards.

I always found it interesting that Tokka is basically what a real mutant turtle would look like. Our guys have always looked basically like weird faced bald humans with shells. Tokka was full on realistic non-cute mutant turtle.
Kinda like the "Soul's Winter" Turtles.

And, I don't mind seeing Tokka and Rahzar reappear in future versions. They're no worse than a lot of the other C-List Mutants that have made comebacks lately.

CyberCubed
04-12-2017, 03:49 PM
And, I don't mind seeing Tokka and Rahzar reappear in future versions. They're no worse than a lot of the other C-List Mutants that have made comebacks lately.

Kinda agree with this. If people lose their minds over seeing Muckman, Mutagen Man, Wyrm, Scumbug, etc...again....there's no problem with Rahzar/Tokka reappearing.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-12-2017, 04:16 PM
Kinda agree with this. If people lose their minds over seeing Muckman, Mutagen Man, Wyrm, Scumbug, etc...again....there's no problem with Rahzar/Tokka reappearing.

At the end of the day, it's all nostalgia and action figures.

CyberCubed
04-12-2017, 04:18 PM
At the end of the day, it's all nostalgia and action figures.

I won't argue that, but still almost every major animal was made a mutant back in the 80's/90's, so it's hard to think of new mutant characters.

It's kind of the same reason people were disappointed Bludgeon wasn't Armaggon. You introduce a mutant shark and not use one people liked since the Archie era? Granted since Bludgeon is a hammerhead shark and Armaggon is a great white shark, it gives IDW some leeway to still introduced him somewhere down the road.

Andrew NDB
04-12-2017, 04:19 PM
At the end of the day, it's all nostalgia and action figures.

So they're forcing it to be.

MikeandRaph87
04-12-2017, 04:51 PM
Razhar was so well done in a single episode and his and Tokka's relationship. I would like to see more of that! The problem is how can Tokka be unique to Slash and be justified.

I would like to see a list of A list mutants and B list mutants after CKD's mention.

sdp
04-12-2017, 10:11 PM
They're awesome designs so yeah I love seeing them. |
They're not really used too much either when they appear which is fine since it makes their appearances special.

With the exception of the CG show. Dogpound mutating into Rahzar was terrible and only done to please fans. Dogpound was awesome and one of the few original characters that was great in the beginning and yet they transform him into a character we love but he's not that character either? Way to mess things up on both characters.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-12-2017, 10:15 PM
Razhar was so well done in a single episode and his and Tokka's relationship. I would like to see more of that! The problem is how can Tokka be unique to Slash and be justified.

I would like to see a list of A list mutants and B list mutants after CKD's mention.

I'd say, if such a list were to be created, A and B lists wouldn't cover everything. You have characters such as Fishface and Dogpound, for example, who started off strong and unique but faded to background lackeys over the course of a season or two.

They STARTED as A-list, but degraded down to B-list. Whereas, say, Mona Lisa is firmly B-list. And Bebop and Rocksteady and Slash are absolutely A-list.

CyberCubed
04-12-2017, 10:17 PM
With the exception of the CG show. Dogpound mutating into Rahzar was terrible and only done to please fans. Dogpound was awesome and one of the few original characters that was great in the beginning and yet they transform him into a character we love but he's not that character either? Way to mess things up on both characters.

Are you kidding? Dogpound's design was awful, and Rahzar was a much needed improvement. Besides his personality didn't change between mutation so it's the same character.

Also why do you keep saying, "not that character?" All Rahzar is, is basically a wolf. He had no backstory prior to the Nick cartoon.

MikeandRaph87
04-12-2017, 10:28 PM
Razhar still has no backstory as he was renamed Razhar in name only.

As for A-list, would it consists of just five characters? Bebop, Rocksteady, Slash, Leatherhead, and Baxter Stockman when depicted as a mutant fly might make up the A list. You might have an A- category with the likes of Old Hob and Mondo Gecko.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-12-2017, 10:35 PM
Are you kidding? Dogpound's design was awful, and Rahzar was a much needed improvement. Besides his personality didn't change between mutation so it's the same character.

Also why do you keep saying, "not that character?" All Rahzar is, is basically a wolf. He had no backstory prior to the Nick cartoon.

Dogpound's design was awesome EXCEPT for the fact that it was lopsided and asymmetrical.

Razhar still has no backstory as he was renamed Razhar in name only.

As for A-list, would it consists of just five characters? Bebop, Rocksteady, Slash, Leatherhead, and Baxter Stockman when depicted as a mutant fly might make up the A list. You might have an A- category with the likes of Old Hob and Mondo Gecko.

I wouldn't list Baxter; he's not always a mutant (courtesy of Mirage, 4Kids, and IDW).

A-List? Off the top of my head: Rocksteady, Bebop, Slash, Leatherhead. I'd also add Old Hob and Tiger Claw to that list, because although they're exclusive to a single iteration, they've been stand-out fan favorites AND they haven't been downgraded to background cannon fodder.

CyberCubed
04-12-2017, 10:37 PM
Razhar still has no backstory as he was renamed Razhar in name only..

???

Rahzar used to be nothing but a wolf mutated for Shredder in the second movie. In his original cartoon appearance he had no backstory and was just a random mutant who lived in the wild.

Nick's Rahzar has an actual backstory (Chris Bradford), has a personality, actually works for Shredder beyond being a "dumb feral mutant" and had a role in the series. Take off the nostalgia glasses, Nick's Rahzar is the best version of the character to date.

TigerClaw
04-12-2017, 11:03 PM
???

Rahzar used to be nothing but a wolf mutated for Shredder in the second movie. In his original cartoon appearance he had no backstory and was just a random mutant who lived in the wild.

Nick's Rahzar has an actual backstory (Chris Bradford), has a personality, actually works for Shredder beyond being a "dumb feral mutant" and had a role in the series. Take off the nostalgia glasses, Nick's Rahzar is the best version of the character to date.
I prefer the original origin where he was just a normal wolf mutated, Not really a fan of the Nick version, since its just in name only.

Coola Yagami
04-12-2017, 11:10 PM
I prefer the original origin where he was just a normal wolf mutated, Not really a fan of the Nick version, since its just in name only.

Exactly. There was no need to turn an already established character into Rahzar all of a sudden. There's nothing wrong with Rahzar being a feral wolf monster that could have eventually developed his own character, kinda like Slash actually.

Hell, what would have happened if they mutated Shredder, Hun, or some other pre-established character into Slash just for 'LOL nostalgia!' just for the hell of it.

Actually this version of Rahzar was such a sleek skeletal design that had ninja speed.... they might as well have call him Wolfesbane or some other name other than naming him after a slow lumbering wolf mutant was known more for his strength than his speed.

sdp
04-12-2017, 11:51 PM
Are you kidding? Dogpound's design was awful, and Rahzar was a much needed improvement. Besides his personality didn't change between mutation so it's the same character.

Also why do you keep saying, "not that character?" All Rahzar is, is basically a wolf. He had no backstory prior to the Nick cartoon.

Rahzar used to be nothing but a wolf mutated for Shredder in the second movie. In his original cartoon appearance he had no backstory and was just a random mutant who lived in the wild.

Nick's Rahzar has an actual backstory (Chris Bradford), has a personality, actually works for Shredder beyond being a "dumb feral mutant" and had a role in the series. Take off the nostalgia glasses, Nick's Rahzar is the best version of the character to date.
I liked Dogpound's design even if you didn't. Rahzar's design is alright but a little too hot topic for my tastes and doesn't fit Bradford.

Yes, Rahzar did not have a huge backstory and he didn't need one, he was fine without one, especially since his backstory here is basically eliminating an original character the show had made that wasn't terrible like snakeweed or whatever he was called.

|In fact one of my biggest issues with this show is taking established characters and making them totally unrelated to the character they're supposed to be. Just make new characters if that's what you're going to do with them. I still can't believe Hun is Bruce Lee in the CG show.

Coola Yagami
04-13-2017, 12:41 AM
I still can't believe Hun is Bruce Lee in the CG show.

I'm just gonna kick back and wait for Cubed to somehow defend Nick's design to turn Hun into Bruce Lee after all the times he himself said he was so against it. I bet if the Nick show added turtle nostrils, he would still find some way to defend it, despite his huge distaste for them.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 01:58 AM
How do you people even believe what you're saying with this name only stuff?

Every version of Karai after Mirage was Karai in name only. 4kids Rat King was a failed Bishop clone, is he in name only too? Fred Wolf Baxter was a wimpy white guy with blonde hair instead of a black man. Archie Slash is an alien Turtle instead of a mutant like the other versions. Sometimes Splinter IS Hamato Yoshi and sometimes his pet rat.

Do you see how ridiculous you sound? By this logic every single character used again after whatever series they debuted in is the character in name only. Every character is changed and updated with new series. So why the hell do you single out one show over everything else? Laughably saying a Rahzar with no backstory is better than one with a past. Get real.

Ninjinister
04-13-2017, 02:52 AM
I'd rather see a decent (like 87 series) Rahzar and Tokka than any incarnation of B&R so far outside of IDW.

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 05:13 AM
I'm just gonna kick back and wait for Cubed to somehow defend Nick's design to turn Hun into Bruce Lee after all the times he himself said he was so against it.

Hun's just a small Chinese man? Why even call him Hun and not Akira?

pferreira
04-13-2017, 09:54 AM
Those are all real words you ****ing retard. Rahzar is jibberish.Wait a minute...there are real people called Metalhead?!

I don't see why both can't appear again and if it really annoys people here I definitely think they should. :lol:

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 09:56 AM
Wait a minute...there are real people called Metalhead?!

I don't see why both can't appear again and if it really annoys people here I definitely think they should. :lol:

Um... as a nickname, absolutely yes.

You know anyone named Rahzar? Tokka? (Your imaginary friends don't count)

pferreira
04-13-2017, 10:34 AM
Um... as a nickname, absolutely yes.

You know anyone named Rahzar? Tokka? (Your imaginary friends don't count)Metalhead isn't a name people are born with. As a nickname? Why not because of them? One TMNT fan calls themselves Tokka because of these two.

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 10:53 AM
Metalhead isn't a name people are born with. As a nickname? Why not because of them? One TMNT fan calls themselves Tokka because of these two.

Yes, within the niche world of TMNT fans, you've found one guy with the nickname "Tokka". That still doesn't change the fact that "metal" and "head" are REAL English words, and "Metalhead" is a very common slang term for one who listens to metal.

When they created Tokka and Rahzar for SotO, they just completely made those names up, because they sounded cool. The 90's were a simpler time, and it was a silly ass movie anyways. These days, writers are held to a higher standard. That standard includes not just barfing up stupid names for your characters, even if they solely exist for the purpose of being made into Playmates toys.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 11:10 AM
Yes, within the niche world of TMNT fans, you've found one guy with the nickname "Tokka". That still doesn't change the fact that "metal" and "head" are REAL English words, and "Metalhead" is a very common slang term for one who listens to metal.

When they created Tokka and Rahzar for SotO, they just completely made those names up, because they sounded cool. The 90's were a simpler time, and it was a silly ass movie anyways. These days, writers are held to a higher standard. That standard includes not just barfing up stupid names for your characters, even if they solely exist for the purpose of being made into Playmates toys.

Exactly.

These aren't Klingons or Romulans... English names don't get made up.

Razor makes sense as a name, because it's a word. Rahzar is jibberish.

Snapper or Spike or Slash all make sense as names, because they're words; Tokka is gibberish and has nothing to do with ANYTHING.

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 11:29 AM
Tokka is gibberish and has nothing to do with ANYTHING.

Unless you want to invent a pretend 'tribal jungle language', which involves the heavy lifting of connecting the Foot to some non-Japanese part of the world.

Or you can be a half assed weeb like cybercubed and make believe that it's a Japanese word "like Godzilla" :lol:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 11:34 AM
Unless you want to invent a pretend 'tribal jungle language', which involves the heavy lifting of connecting the Foot to some non-Japanese part of the world.

Or you can be a half assed weeb like cybercubed and make believe that it's a Japanese word "like Godzilla" :lol:

Tokka is a great made-up name. But it's nothing anyone would name a mutant unless they were an alien.

Actually, I take that back. Shredder might have realistically named Tokka IF Shredder thought that a herd of reindeer was intimidating. And if Oroku Saki were Finnish, Icelandic, Swedish, or Nordic.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tokka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages

pferreira
04-13-2017, 11:40 AM
Yes, within the niche world of TMNT fans, you've found one guy with the nickname "Tokka". That still doesn't change the fact that "metal" and "head" are REAL English words, and "Metalhead" is a very common slang term for one who listens to metal.

When they created Tokka and Rahzar for SotO, they just completely made those names up, because they sounded cool. The 90's were a simpler time, and it was a silly ass movie anyways. These days, writers are held to a higher standard. That standard includes not just barfing up stupid names for your characters, even if they solely exist for the purpose of being made into Playmates toys.Ok cool. I guess you're right then. :ohwell:

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 11:40 AM
Tokka is a great made-up name. But it's nothing anyone would name a mutant unless they were an alien.

Actually, I take that back. Shredder might have realistically named Tokka IF Shredder thought that a herd of reindeer was intimidating. And if Oroku Saki were Finnish, Icelandic, Swedish, or Nordic.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tokka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages

Well, we just traced to lineage of Eric Sacks.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 11:44 AM
Well, we just traced to lineage of Eric Sacks.

And now I have a mental image of Eric Saxophone feeding his pet snapping turtle "Tokka" some lutefisk...

sdp
04-13-2017, 12:00 PM
How do you people even believe what you're saying with this name only stuff?

Every version of Karai after Mirage was Karai in name only. 4kids Rat King was a failed Bishop clone, is he in name only too? Fred Wolf Baxter was a wimpy white guy with blonde hair instead of a black man. Archie Slash is an alien Turtle instead of a mutant like the other versions. Sometimes Splinter IS Hamato Yoshi and sometimes his pet rat.

Do you see how ridiculous you sound? By this logic every single character used again after whatever series they debuted in is the character in name only. Every character is changed and updated with new series. So why the hell do you single out one show over everything else? Laughably saying a Rahzar with no backstory is better than one with a past. Get real.


It's the difference between deviation vs variation, you can change a character and adapt him but there's a certain point where that character becomes someone entirely different and is no longer the same.

I'm not a fan of rat king in the 2k3 show but even then it could be seen more of a variation. Of course the OT and 2k3 had plenty of deviations but the Nick show did this with pretty much every character they wanted to re-introduce for nostalgia.

TigerClaw
04-13-2017, 12:21 PM
It's the difference between deviation vs variation, you can change a character and adapt him but there's a certain point where that character becomes someone entirely different and is no longer the same.

I'm not a fan of rat king in the 2k3 show but even then it could be seen more of a variation. Of course the OT and 2k3 had plenty of deviations but the Nick show did this with pretty much every character they wanted to re-introduce for nostalgia.
Every character on the show that was based on the 80s series, were deviations of the originals, they felt like entirely new characters instead of old ones, It was one of my grievances about it, Tokka, Rahzar, Mona Lisa, Wingnut and Screwloose

The only character from the original that had a similar origin was Mondo Gecko, whose origin was loosely based on the archie comics.

Here's hoping the 2018 series is a new universe, and the characters they borrow are closer to there source material then what Nick universe has done.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 12:48 PM
It's the difference between deviation vs variation, you can change a character and adapt him but there's a certain point where that character becomes someone entirely different and is no longer the same.

I'm not a fan of rat king in the 2k3 show but even then it could be seen more of a variation. Of course the OT and 2k3 had plenty of deviations but the Nick show did this with pretty much every character they wanted to re-introduce for nostalgia.

LOL, 4kids Shredder was a goddamn Utrom. The Shredder, the human main villain of the Turtles was changed to an alien Utrom in 4kids.

You guys can't call out Nick for changing/updating characters when the 4kids series, IDW, Archie, etc. all did the same things.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 01:00 PM
LOL, 4kids Shredder was a goddamn Utrom. The Shredder, the human main villain of the Turtles was changed to an alien Utrom in 4kids.

You guys can't call out Nick for changing/updating characters when the 4kids series, IDW, Archie, etc. all did the same things.

And yet he functioned as an actual Shredder, fulfilling all of the core functions and backgrounds of Oroku Saki (albeit with some changes). Same for Nick's take on the character.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 01:03 PM
And I'd say most of the updated characters in Nick all form the same functions to make them true to their characters as well. That's why I don't understand some of these people's double standards here.

We finally have a Rahzar with an actual character and backstory, as opposed to the dumb feral mutant he was in the second movie. Until IDW introduces their version of Rahzar in the future...if that ever happens, Nick's version is still the most developed version of the character.

MikeandRaph87
04-13-2017, 01:12 PM
Razhar in the 1987 episode, 'Dirk Savage: Mutant Hunter' was not a dumb feral mutant. He was an intellectual looking for a food source to survive.

CKD, I listed Baxter because he is a first string character.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 01:13 PM
Razhar in the 1987 episode, 'Dirk Savage: Mutant Hunter' was not a dumb feral mutant. He was an intellectual looking for a food source to survive.

Yes, but he had no backstory. He was just a mutant living in the wilds.

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 01:14 PM
And yet he functioned as an actual Shredder, fulfilling all of the core functions and backgrounds of Oroku Saki (albeit with some changes). Same for Nick's take on the character.

Plus the Utrom thing was a twist, and not revealed until partway into season 2. In his exo-suit, he was as much of a Shredder as the next.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 01:14 PM
And I'd say most of the updated characters in Nick all form the same functions to make them true to their characters as well. That's why I don't understand some of these people's double standards here.

We finally have a Rahzar with an actual character and backstory, as opposed to the dumb feral mutant he was in the second movie. Until IDW introduces their version of Rahzar in the future...if that ever happens, Nick's version is still the most developed version of the character.

I'd disagree with you, especially regarding Bebop and Rocksteady.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 01:27 PM
What do you mean?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 01:31 PM
What do you mean?

Two new unique characters (Russian gangster / former soldier and street high-tech master thief) who got shoved into mutations and forced by poor writing to become Bebop and Rocksteady because toys+nostalgia=$

ToTheNines
04-13-2017, 01:39 PM
Here we go again.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 03:40 PM
Two new unique characters (Russian gangster / former soldier and street high-tech master thief) who got shoved into mutations and forced by poor writing to become Bebop and Rocksteady because toys+nostalgia=$

They were planned to be Bebop and Rocksteady from the beginning. They just made them more unique this time around, since in the original show, Archie, and even IDW...they're kind of interchangeable from each other. There are some slight minute differences between the two, but not that much.

Rocksteady now being a Russian and Bebop being a Michael Jackson impersonator does set them apart. And as said, Rocksteady is still a white guy with blonde hair, and Bebop is still a black man with a purple mohawk before mutations. They're also still thieves/crooks, just not street punks, and they still work for Shredder.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 03:50 PM
They were planned to be Bebop and Rocksteady from the beginning. They just made them more unique this time around, since in the original show, Archie, and even IDW...they're kind of interchangeable from each other. There are some slight minute differences between the two, but not that much.

Rocksteady now being a Russian and Bebop being a Michael Jackson impersonator does set them apart. And as said, Rocksteady is still a white guy with blonde hair, and Bebop is still a black man with a purple mohawk before mutations. They're also still thieves/crooks, just not street punks, and they still work for Shredder.

Fine, Cubed. That's fine.

You do you.

TigerClaw
04-13-2017, 04:00 PM
They were planned to be Bebop and Rocksteady from the beginning. They just made them more unique this time around, since in the original show, Archie, and even IDW...they're kind of interchangeable from each other. There are some slight minute differences between the two, but not that much.

Rocksteady now being a Russian and Bebop being a Michael Jackson impersonator does set them apart. And as said, Rocksteady is still a white guy with blonde hair, and Bebop is still a black man with a purple mohawk before mutations. They're also still thieves/crooks, just not street punks, and they still work for Shredder.
I rather that Bebop and Rocksteady are street punks, they were streat punks in the IDW comics, at least they got them right.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-13-2017, 04:07 PM
They were planned to be Bebop and Rocksteady from the beginning. They just made them more unique this time around, since in the original show, Archie, and even IDW...they're kind of interchangeable from each other. There are some slight minute differences between the two, but not that much.

So? At a certain level, the Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder are pretty interchangeable across the board.

Rocksteady now being a Russian and Bebop being a Michael Jackson impersonator does set them apart. And as said, Rocksteady is still a white guy with blonde hair, and Bebop is still a black man with a purple mohawk before mutations. They're also still thieves/crooks, just not street punks, and they still work for Shredder.

That was... shockingly superficial. :tlol: Rocksteady: white blond dude? Check. Bebop: black dude with purple mohawk? Check.

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 04:13 PM
I rather that Bebop and Rocksteady are street punks, they were streat punks in the IDW comics, at least they got them right.

"Got them right?" What the hell does that even mean? So they're not allowed to change or update characters? Rocksteady and Bebop are still crooks/thieves who work for Shredder. They're still comical/silly villains and have the same human origins.

By your logic every character has to be 100% identical to whatever their first appearance was. I love how Rat King can be an immortal God part of the Pantheon in IDW, and nobody has a problem with that. Yet if Nick did something even slightly different with a character, people are up in arms.

So? At a certain level, the Turtles, Splinter, and Shredder are pretty interchangeable across the board.

That was... shockingly superficial. :tlol: Rocksteady: white blond dude? Check. Bebop: black dude with purple mohawk? Check.

What does this even mean? Nick's Bebop and Rocksteady are basically true to the characters. Of course they have some changes (the way Bebop acts and fights in particular), but that's to be expected with new versions of a character.

I swear the double standards here are bizarre.

TigerClaw
04-13-2017, 04:22 PM
"Got them right?" What the hell does that even mean? So they're not allowed to change or update characters? Rocksteady and Bebop are still crooks/thieves who work for Shredder. They're still comical/silly villains and have the same human origins.

By your logic every character has to be 100% identical to whatever their first appearance was. I love how Rat King can be an immortal God part of the Pantheon in IDW, and nobody has a problem with that. Yet if Nick did something even slightly different with a character, people are up in arms.



What does this even mean? Nick's Bebop and Rocksteady are basically true to the characters. Of course they have some changes (the way Bebop acts and fights in particular), but that's to be expected with new versions of a character.

I swear the double standards here are bizarre.
What I liked about the IDW version was, they were less goofy, and a lot more dangerous, leaving a path of destruction along the way

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 04:24 PM
What I liked about the IDW version was, they were less goofy, and a lot more dangerous, leaving a path of destruction along the way

So in other words you're fine with IDW changing Bebop/Rocksteady from what they were known for, yet when Nick does the same you feel it's "too different."

What.

TigerClaw
04-13-2017, 04:36 PM
So in other words you're fine with IDW changing Bebop/Rocksteady from what they were known for, yet when Nick does the same you feel it's "too different."

What.
I don't like how Bebop and Rocksteady were portrayed in the Nick series, They were forced to being mutants against there will, and they hated it.

The ones on the IDW comics, and even Out Of The Shadows loved being mutated, cause they wanted to be bad asses, only they are bad at being bad asses. lol

CyberCubed
04-13-2017, 04:39 PM
I don't like how Bebop and Rocksteady were portrayed in the Nick series, They were forced to being mutants against there will, and they hated it.

Dude, what? :lol:

They didn't like being mutants at first, but Rocksteady loves being a mutant now. He even uses the "Rocksteady" name over his own in the Nick cartoon calling himself, "The Rocksteady." Bebop also seems fine with it now. Of course Shredder is going to mutate them, he did the same thing in the OT only back there they were too stupid to realize they were being used as guinea pigs to fight the Turtles.

And that's what you're complaining about? Talk about nitpicking.

Andrew NDB
04-13-2017, 04:40 PM
The ones on the IDW comics, and even Out Of The Shadows loved being mutated, cause they wanted to be bad asses, only they are bad at being bad asses. lol

Which makes the Shredder have NO credibility as a villain boss that he would employ such things.

"Oh, but he could deploy them into certain scenarios where BRUTE FORCE is needed!!"

Yeah, he sure could, if he was a moron. You can't predict what Bebop and Rocksteady will do. They'll probably trip on a banana peel and shoot whatever Foot you assign to them in the face before muttering about "Youse toitles gonna pay!"

neatoman
04-14-2017, 05:28 AM
I don't like how Bebop and Rocksteady were portrayed in the Nick series, They were forced to being mutants against there will, and they hated it.

I'm more bothered by how quickly they accepted though. They attack Shredder once, tries to return to their old selves once and then what? They never talk about how it sucks that they're monster or try to undermine the Shredder again?

The ones on the IDW comics, and even Out Of The Shadows loved being mutated, cause they wanted to be bad asses, only they are bad at being bad asses. lol

I'm not so sure the IDW versions were in for the "badass" factor, it seemed more like they were so desperate for acceptance they were willing to go through with it. In OotS it was just kind of weird, they had no idea what would happen and then just went along with their orders like nothing happened... I really hate that movie...

Which makes the Shredder have NO credibility as a villain boss that he would employ such things.

"Oh, but he could deploy them into certain scenarios where BRUTE FORCE is needed!!"

Yeah, he sure could, if he was a moron. You can't predict what Bebop and Rocksteady will do. They'll probably trip on a banana peel and shoot whatever Foot you assign to them in the face before muttering about "Youse toitles gonna pay!"

Yeah, Bebop and Rocksteady aren't reliable. In IDW's defence however, they were constantly kicked out of gangs for being incompetent and unreliable, Karai even tells them she's going to kill them if they step out of line again. So at least it's acknowledged?

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-15-2017, 06:38 AM
Bebop and Rocksteady, and also Karai, Dogpound and Fishface, could've stayed human in this version. Tigerclaw was a great mutant antagonist for this series.

Tetsu Deinonychus
04-15-2017, 10:07 AM
Which makes the Shredder have NO credibility as a villain boss that he would employ such things.

"Oh, but he could deploy them into certain scenarios where BRUTE FORCE is needed!!"

Yeah, he sure could, if he was a moron. You can't predict what Bebop and Rocksteady will do. They'll probably trip on a banana peel and shoot whatever Foot you assign to them in the face before muttering about "Youse toitles gonna pay!"

Now I want to see a version of TMNT where Shredder deploys Rocksteady and Bebop only once. And, then eliminates them immediately for failing him, like he did the Purple Dragon leader at the beginning of 2k3.

The FW fanboys would throw a fit. :lol:

A version where he just plain fires them would be funny too. They could be living on the street doing pathetic petty crimes like stealing candy etc. like in the magazine comics.

Xav
04-15-2017, 01:08 PM
Hell, what would have happened if they mutated Shredder, Hun, or some other pre-established character into Slash just for 'LOL nostalgia!' just for the hell of it.Isn't that pretty much what happened in Turtles Forever?

sdp
04-15-2017, 01:24 PM
Hun was never called Slash in TF and that fate for him was ironic since he hated the turtles. I don't think he would've been Slash had the show continued, Laird hated the OT too much for that to happen. He would've just been Hun as a mutated turtle which is what we got in TF.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-15-2017, 02:10 PM
Would like to know how they were mutated in the original series.

MikeandRaph87
04-15-2017, 02:18 PM
I voted 'yes' based on 'Dirk Savage:Mutant Hunter'. I do prefer more of Grounchuck and Dirtbag between all of the mutant pairs than Razhar and Tokka.

CyberCubed
04-15-2017, 02:47 PM
Would like to know how they were mutated in the original series.

Donatello made a vague reference saying, "Remember when Shredder mutated the animals in the zoo a few years back."

It's quite possible around the time Groundchuck and Dirtbag were mutated in Season 5, they tried to mutate more animals off-screen and Rahzar/Tokka were part of that.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-15-2017, 03:11 PM
Or maybe they were mutated offscreen right after Bebop and Rocksteady (but still starting as animals) with more animals stolen with Roadkill Rodney-robots at another part of the zoo, and kicked out of the Technodrome before it was sent to Dimension X during the end of season 1.

Coola Yagami
04-15-2017, 08:08 PM
Now I want to see a version of TMNT where Shredder deploys Rocksteady and Bebop only once. And, then eliminates them immediately for failing him, like he did the Purple Dragon leader at the beginning of 2k3.

The FW fanboys would throw a fit. :lol:

A version where he just plain fires them would be funny too. They could be living on the street doing pathetic petty crimes like stealing candy etc. like in the magazine comics.

ROFL. THAT WOULD BE EPIC. Honestly though, had 2K3 Shredder's plan NOT destroyed all existence and kept Bebop and Rocksteady in his employ, he would have killed them in a week.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-16-2017, 06:18 AM
Or Just keep Bebop and Rocksteady as two humans, never-mutated, Purple Dragons.

neatoman
04-16-2017, 07:40 AM
Or Just keep Bebop and Rocksteady as two humans, never-mutated, Purple Dragons.

That way I just get the feeling Hun would get annoyed and puts them in a giant microwave oven or something. Which, you know, I wouldn't really be against...
Z1M7h1i-KXo

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-16-2017, 07:41 AM
That way I just get the feeling Hun would get annoyed and puts them in a giant microwave oven or something. Which, you know, I wouldn't really be against...
Z1M7h1i-KXo

Or maybe a washing machine (a large one, such as those seen at places like hotels and restaurants)?

neatoman
04-16-2017, 07:47 AM
Or maybe a washing machine (a large one, such as those seen at places like hotels and restaurants)?

I can't imagine it's pleasant or in any way harmless to be stuck in one of those, but I don't think it's lethal.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-16-2017, 07:56 AM
I can't imagine it's pleasant or in any way harmless to be stuck in one of those, but I don't think it's lethal.

Depends on if you want them to be killed?

CyberCubed
04-17-2017, 05:29 PM
I'm pretty sure there WAS an episode where Bebop/Rocksteady were in a giant washing machine being washed around. I vaguely remember a scene like that, I'm sure someone knows what ep it was in. :lol:

MikeandRaph87
04-17-2017, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty sure there WAS an episode where Bebop/Rocksteady were in a giant washing machine being washed around. I vaguely remember a scene like that, I'm sure someone knows what ep it was in. :lol:

'The Dimension X Story' lead to Michaelangelo and Raphael hanging Shredder and the two henchmutants out to dry as they were knocked down the laundry shoot. That could be what you are remembering. That is the closest I can think of to what you are stating.

MsMarvelDuckie
04-17-2017, 08:20 PM
I can't imagine it's pleasant or in any way harmless to be stuck in one of those, but I don't think it's lethal.

Oh it's lethal all right. Several years back we were living in a house with some roomates and one of the kittens we had adopted got into the washer somehow. You DON'T want to know what the result was when we found it after the washer went through its cycle.....

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 12:30 AM
Heh, on PL's blog someone asked him where Rahzar and Tokka's names came from. This is what he responded:

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think Kevin Eastman came up with those names. -- PL

So if this is right, then Kevin is the one who pulled Rahzar and Tokka's names out of somewhere.

Powder
04-18-2017, 04:19 AM
Kevin designed them, so yeah, makes sense.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 10:21 AM
Someone should ask Kevin if Tokka's name comes from Godzilla, a fusion of that and the Gamera. I bet he'll say yes.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 10:24 AM
Someone should ask Kevin if Tokka's name comes from Godzilla, a fusion of that and the Gamera. I bet he'll say yes.

A fusion of Godzilla and Gamera?

...

Tell me, do you see the letters "T" or "K" anywhere in either of those two names?

DestronMirage22
04-18-2017, 10:54 AM
Someone should ask Kevin if Tokka's name comes from Godzilla, a fusion of that and the Gamera. I bet he'll say yes.

How would you get that name from a combination of those two? Also, what's up with you insisting that Tokka has some kind of Japanese Kaiju influence? He's just a mutated Alligator Snapping Turtle.

(Plus: THE Gamera? Seriously? You don't refer to Godzilla as THE Godzilla, why would you do the same for Gamera?)

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 10:57 AM
The "kka" at the end of Tokka's name and Godzilla sound similar.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 11:07 AM
The "kka" at the end of Tokka's name and Godzilla sound similar.

...

Cubed, you know I like you, but this may be the dumbest thing you've ever said.

That's like saying "cake" and "tape" sound the same. Or "kitty" and "very."

EDIT: The "a" at the end of both names sound the same, but that's it. That's like saying the "d" in "Cubed" and "damned" sound the same.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 11:08 AM
Trust me, it's a linguistics thing. Even if Kevin didn't base it on Godzilla intentionally, it was probably done subconsciously.

Coola Yagami
04-18-2017, 11:12 AM
Trust me, it's a linguistics thing. Even if Kevin didn't base it on Godzilla intentionally, it was probably done subconsciously.

Yeaaaah.... no. It probably didn't even cross his mind.

DestronMirage22
04-18-2017, 11:17 AM
Yeaaaah.... no. It probably didn't even cross his mind.

Yeah, he was probably just thinking of the type of turtle necessary to have as an opposite of the TMNT. Alligator Snappers are among the most "bad-ass" of turtles, so naturally he'd chose one as the basis of his design. Classic Kevin Eastman. :roll:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 11:23 AM
Trust me, it's a linguistics thing. Even if Kevin didn't base it on Godzilla intentionally, it was probably done subconsciously.

No, and no.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 11:28 AM
So Kevin just pulled Tokka out of thin air? I doubt it.

DestronMirage22
04-18-2017, 11:31 AM
So Kevin just pulled Tokka out of thin air? I doubt it.

What is there to doubt? He's created tons of characters over the years, why would Tokka be any different?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 11:37 AM
So Kevin just pulled Tokka out of thin air? I doubt it.

Why not? I create fictional character names all the time. Take some sounds that sound good and can be spelled without too many apostrophes or tildes, slap 'em together, and boom.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 11:40 AM
Bellybomb is two words slapped together for a character. Tokka just sounds like it was inspired by Godzilla or Gamera. Someone should ask him.

GoldMutant
04-18-2017, 03:10 PM
Someone should ask him.

Why don't you do it? I/We don't have time to waste asking.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 03:25 PM
Why don't you do it? I/We don't have time to waste asking.

I have no way of getting in contact with Kevin Eastman. Some people here do or have spoke to him for years.

MsMarvelDuckie
04-18-2017, 04:08 PM
Someone should ask Kevin if Tokka's name comes from Godzilla, a fusion of that and the Gamera. I bet he'll say yes.


Cubed you know I like you but.... How are you getting Tokka out of THOSE!?


Trust me, it's a linguistics thing. Even if Kevin didn't base it on Godzilla intentionally, it was probably done subconsciously.


No, it's really not. Having studied multiple languages, I can safely say that there is NO connection between them. If anything, he probably based it on some more ancient language (maybe something reminiscent of Babylon or Sumeria) or used something that would give off a "savage" vibe like a dinosaur or a primitive human culture of some kind.


Why not? I create fictional character names all the time. Take some sounds that sound good and can be spelled without too many apostrophes or tildes, slap 'em together, and boom.


As do I. It's not hard to come up with names that sound similar for characters from the same race or region, or to make up completely new names out of nonsense sylibles strung together for a certain sound.


Bellybomb is two words slapped together for a character. Tokka just sounds like it was inspired by Godzilla or Gamera. Someone should ask him.

I think you are confusing the name with the design and in either case the answer is probably still no. For one thing, Tokka is a snapping turtle- period. They are big , mean, and dangerous. Mutate one into a humanoid form and you still get- big mean and dangerous.

Secondly, and I REALLY hate to be "that girl", but I have to nitpick here and say that you aren't even getting the name right to begin with. It is actually supposed to be "Gogira" but has been Americanized to Godzilla. THAT is as far as any similarity to Tokka goes. And Tokka sounds NOTHING like an actual Japanese name- even a kaiju one!

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 04:17 PM
I already did the research a few pages back...

Shredder might have realistically named Tokka IF Shredder thought that a herd of reindeer was intimidating. And if Oroku Saki were Finnish, Icelandic, Swedish, or Nordic.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tokka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages

MsMarvelDuckie
04-18-2017, 04:37 PM
Not especially familiar with those but I was thinking of something a bit more gutteral and primitive-sounding.

MikeandRaph87
04-18-2017, 04:40 PM
The "kka" at the end of Tokka's name and Godzilla sound similar.

Kka sounds like ila?
http://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a9dDjVZ_700b.jpg

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 06:20 PM
Are you guys seriously saying this:

http://www.joblo.com/images_arrownews/gameraheader.jpg


Doesn't remind you of Tokka? He looks just like him, Tokka's design in the second movie was clearly inspired by it.

A lot of the other different Gamera designs from the various Godzilla movies, toys, cartoons, etc....also looks similar to Tokka.

Powder
04-18-2017, 06:30 PM
Might as well throw these up again 'cause they're damn cool & people oughtta see 'em!
http://i68.tinypic.com/2cwzug.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/3133h3s.jpg

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 06:58 PM
Might as well throw these up again 'cause they're damn cool & people oughtta see 'em!
http://i68.tinypic.com/2cwzug.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/3133h3s.jpg

Those are awesome! Wouldn't mind seeing those designs show up in IDW at some point... :tgrin:

GoldMutant
04-18-2017, 07:09 PM
Are you guys seriously saying this:

http://www.joblo.com/images_arrownews/gameraheader.jpg


Doesn't remind you of Tokka? He looks just like him, Tokka's design in the second movie was clearly inspired by it.

A lot of the other different Gamera designs from the various Godzilla movies, toys, cartoons, etc....also looks similar to Tokka.

Are you daft? The point you tried to make was Tokka's name, not his design.

Someone should ask Kevin if Tokka's name comes from Godzilla, a fusion of that and the Gamera. I bet he'll say yes.

The "kka" at the end of Tokka's name and Godzilla sound similar.

Trust me, it's a linguistics thing. Even if Kevin didn't base it on Godzilla intentionally, it was probably done subconsciously.

Bellybomb is two words slapped together for a character. Tokka just sounds like it was inspired by Godzilla or Gamera. Someone should ask him.

So Kevin just pulled Tokka out of thin air? I doubt it.

Don't try to straw man this. Gamera's face may serve as inspiration/indirect influence, but name? Keep trying.

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 07:33 PM
He's just a mutated Alligator Snapping Turtle.


Thank you.

Trust me, it's a linguistics thing.

Ok Donald.

So Kevin just pulled Tokka out of thin air?

Out of his ass is more likely.

Bellybomb is two words slapped together for a character. Tokka just sounds like it was inspired by Godzilla or Gamera. Someone should ask him.

"Belly" and "bomb" are real words. "TOKKA" is a FAKE WORD!

It is actually supposed to be "Gogira" but has been Americanized to Godzilla. THAT is as far as any similarity to Tokka goes. And Tokka sounds NOTHING like an actual Japanese name- even a kaiju one!

Thank you.

Are you daft?

Yes, he is. This thread is the foremost example of cybercubeds retardation. He's never been this much of mouth breathing buffoon before. I'd feel bad about his mother drinking 10 martinis a night during pregnancy and dropping him on his head from 2 flights up if he wasn't such an arrogant prick.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 08:15 PM
All I'm saying is Tokka's name and design was largely inspired by fusing Godzilla and Gamera together. Someone get Kevin on the line and ask him.

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 08:20 PM
Gamzilla? Godamera? Please tell me you're trully mentally disabled so I can stop making fun of you.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 08:24 PM
Look at this, the TMNT fan tOkka (who used to post here regularly, and has contributed to the TMNT fandom for years) posted fanart of gamera on his deviantart, and in his description he even makes the connection between Tokka (the character) and Gamera:

http://tokka.deviantart.com/art/Gamera-Stomper-8405378

MsMarvelDuckie
04-18-2017, 08:37 PM
His DESIGN is similar perhaps- because they are both based on a turtle- but his NAME has literally NOTHING in common with them. Not even from a naming convention angle. You are SERIOUSLY reaching.

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 08:37 PM
Yes, a fan who named himself after a mutant turtle once drew a gigantic Japanese kaiju turtle. Empirical evidence at last! Great work, cybercucked!

Stop trolling, bitch.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 08:37 PM
The level of stupid in this thread

is too damn high.

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 08:46 PM
Instead of getting so upset, maybe someone should just ask Kevin then.

GoldMutant
04-18-2017, 08:52 PM
Instead of getting so upset, maybe someone should just ask Kevin then.

Can you do it for us? I don't have time to look around for Kevin.
____________________________________

Seriously, you're reaching. This thread needs to be locked at this point, the stupidity is killing me.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-18-2017, 08:57 PM
Has anyone else never seen the concept art Powder posted? That stuff was ill. :tgrin:

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 08:59 PM
I've seen it in the past, yes. As I said, Jim Lawson also drew Rahzar/Tokka in the movie 2 adaption in Archie comics. So you can see how he drew them there too.

Also someone ask Kevin.

MikeandRaph87
04-18-2017, 09:02 PM
I've seen it in the past, yes. As I said, Jim Lawson also drew Rahzar/Tokka in the movie 2 adaption in Archie comics. So you can see how he drew them there too.

Also someone ask Kevin.

I will leave that to you.

I plan on seeing Kevin Eastman on May 6th(Free Comic Book Day). Anyone have any questions they would like me to ask?

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 09:06 PM
I have no way of getting in contact with Kevin. Seriously, nobody can ask a simple 5 second question of the origins of Rahzar/Tokka's names?

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 09:08 PM
Is anyone else laughing their ass off at the idea of Kevin Eastman muttering "yeah I was just thinking about kaiju, except way smaller. So I was like: he's a turtle. So he has to be part Gamera and part Godzilla. So naturally, I just came to Tokka. DUH!"

MikeandRaph87
04-18-2017, 09:09 PM
I have no way of getting in contact with Kevin. Seriously, nobody can ask a simple 5 second question of the origins of Rahzar/Tokka's names?

I am more curious about why an alligator snapping turtle as the mutant opponent instead of a more fearsome animals. A wolf I understand, but the next most intimating animal Tatsu could find was another type of turtlevandvso close to Slash's creation? I am not hating on Tokka so much as curious to how rhevanimals were chosen.

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 09:10 PM
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/craig-5/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161002-073558_edit_1475408248076.jpeg

CyberCubed
04-18-2017, 09:11 PM
Michelle Obama isn't in the white house anymore. You have to post Melania now. :lol:

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 09:12 PM
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/craig-5/Mobile%20Uploads/Confused%20Bill%20Cosby%2027072016185520.jpg

FredWolfLeonardo
04-18-2017, 09:13 PM
This thread was about Razhar and Tokka as characters then turned into an argument about their names. Its fun to speculate yes, but I don't see the point in getting worked up over whether their names are real or not.

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 09:14 PM
http://m.quickmeme.com/img/0e/0ee0f1f031d9803b1a68d8be49c8a7ff7a35bb3a8ce5043b70 e2062da4a27c25.jpg

ToTheNines
04-18-2017, 09:25 PM
Finally got ahold of Kevin. You won't believe his answer...

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/craig-5/Mobile%20Uploads/ZomboMeme%2018042017222209.jpg

Machias Banshee
04-19-2017, 09:06 PM
Well, now we have Kevin's answer...


ToTheNines, Cybercubed, I've received enough reported posts for this thread alone to drown my mailbox. You've both been relentless attacking each other.

Time to take a lil break. See you both in Two weeks. Maybe you'll both chill out and stop instigating each other.