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The Turtle Terminator
04-14-2017, 05:24 PM
I'm just wondering if there's anything about this episode (e.g. early script, early character designs/animation) on the Internet

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 05:26 PM
Yeah, PL has the entire script on his blog in one of his older posts. Most of it though is just PL criticizing the 4kids writers telling them to change everything or how stupid some things were.

The Turtle Terminator
04-14-2017, 05:28 PM
Yeah, PL has the entire script on his blog in one of his older posts. Most of it though is just PL criticizing the 4kids writers telling them to change everything or how stupid some things were.

Thanks. You don't have a link for it do you?

TheSkeletonMan939
04-14-2017, 05:34 PM
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/blast-from-past-357-february-11-2005.html

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/january-30-2005-re-outline-for-ep-110.html

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/blast-from-past-359-february-26-2005.html

That episode was much better off being cancelled.

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone was dying to see Garbageman get a third episode. Now we can just assume he died/drowned at the bottom of the ocean in his second episode. Heh.

ABrown
04-14-2017, 07:32 PM
Well I actually do consider the episode to be canon. We just never got to see it.

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 07:46 PM
Instead of this ep they should have given Rat King an episode in Season 5. That way they wouldn't have canned it (this ep was scraped because Hun/Garbageman was cojoined brothers at birth) and we would have gotten 13 eps in Season 5.

One of the strangest things about the 4kids series is how underused Rat King was. Since he appeared at the beginning of Season 4 I always thought he'd appear again towards the end of that season and never did. Then when Season 5 had two NY episodes after the trip to Japan, one of them should have been a Rat King ep. Hell, BTTS should have had a Rat King episode too but didn't.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
04-14-2017, 07:52 PM
Yeah, PL has the entire script on his blog in one of his older posts. Most of it though is just PL criticizing the 4kids writers telling them to change everything or how stupid some things were.

Not the entire script. Quite a few excerpts, though.

Netkeeper
04-14-2017, 08:20 PM
Man I love it whenever someone links PL's blog, I especially love reading those Goldfine emails. I laugh so hard whenever he corrects the writer's grammar or spelling, I don't even think that's part of his job is it? He just does it and that's amazing and I love it

As for the episode itself, idk, if Laird thought it eventually had potential I'd be willing to give it a chance even if I do think the obvious elements of it are a bit... wtf

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 09:33 PM
It's kind of funny the way he talks down to professional writers/directors in the animation industry as if they're "beneath him" when he's just an independent comic book artist. It's not like he's any more of a professional than they were. Most of the 4kids writers like Christopher Yost have been in the industry for years and written for dozens of other cartoons.

sdp
04-14-2017, 09:54 PM
Those posts were always hilarious, especially since he was usually right.

Nightmares Recycled..I have mixed feelings about it, on one hand Garbage Man was the worst character in TMNT history and both his appearances were horrible, but when this episode got cancelled we got nothing in exchange so we just lost an episode, and who knows, maybe it could've redeemed the character and made his past appearances be better in hindsight? Then again it was playing hot potato as it could've ruined Hun's character.

I guess if you want to believe the episode still happened it's fine but if you want to ignore that's fine too since it was never made.

I wonder how the season 5 had been if it had had 26 episodes as it was originally meant to before they pulled the plug and moved to Fast Forward. IIRC it was Laird who paid to have it made, same with Turtles Forever. Here at the drome Laird gets a lot of hate but he really did a lot for the franchise.

TheSkeletonMan939
04-14-2017, 10:06 PM
I very much get the impression Laird was a huge, huge reason why the 2k3 is as good as it is. That's not to denigrate the effort others did for the show, but without his involvement we'd have gotten probably a far less interesting product.

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 10:12 PM
I wonder how the season 5 had been if it had had 26 episodes as it was originally meant to before they pulled the plug and moved to Fast Forward. IIRC it was Laird who paid to have it made, same with Turtles Forever. Here at the drome Laird gets a lot of hate but he really did a lot for the franchise.

Season 5 was never going to be 26 episodes. It was a 13 episode season from the start. The only reason FF got 26 episodes is because they were rebranding the show with a new title/look.

I don't see why people think Season 5 was ever intended to be longer, they already had to have finished the scripts/episodes long before they started on FF. Nothing in PL's notes/posts ever gave the impression that Season 5 was ever going to be above 13 episodes, and "Nightmares Recycled" was the only ep they worked on that was axed entirely.

sdp
04-14-2017, 10:24 PM
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I'm pretty sure that as soon as season 5 started it was scrapped to think of a rebranding in which case FF was chosen as the one they all agreed on Playmates/Mirage/4Kids but Laird didn't want S5 scrapped so he salvaged it with his own money for the most part to finish it, so of course they didn't have 26 episodes ready and only around half of that. Remember that FF aired right after S4 there was no wait so it was obvious that production of FF began around the time that S5 would've begun.

This is all from memory so I may have gotten a few details wrong here and there but I remember reading all that drama here and Toon Zone.

And I don't think I"m confusing it with the BTTS drama where Fast Forward season 2 was scrapped for a new idea and they had different concepts including the toddler turtles one and eventually they all decided on BTTS which if we also got to see a few scrapped episode drafts like the Space Usagi one and even then if you look at BTTS you can see that a lot of that season seems to be tweaked FFs2 plots since many of them make more sense in the future than in the present, hence why Karai had a low profile, we had new characters that mirrored FF ones, April acted a bit like Cody and even Serling came to the present since he had no counterpart in the present.

CyberCubed
04-14-2017, 10:47 PM
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I'm pretty sure that as soon as season 5 started it was scrapped to think of a rebranding in which case FF was chosen as the one they all agreed on Playmates/Mirage/4Kids but Laird didn't want S5 scrapped so he salvaged it with his own money for the most part to finish it, so of course they didn't have 26 episodes ready and only around half of that. Remember that FF aired right after S4 there was no wait so it was obvious that production of FF began around the time that S5 would've begun.

No, the last episode of Season 4 directly leads into the Ninja Tribunal arc. All of Season 5 was already in script form before they decided to air FF before it, they just didn't finish animating all the episodes yetr And as I said before, Season 5 was always going to be 13 episodes. There's never been anything PL said or in his notes saying they somehow scraped another 13 episodes.

And I don't think I"m confusing it with the BTTS drama where Fast Forward season 2 was scrapped for a new idea and they had different concepts including the toddler turtles one and eventually they all decided on BTTS which if we also got to see a few scrapped episode drafts like the Space Usagi one and even then if you look at BTTS you can see that a lot of that season seems to be tweaked FFs2 plots .

Well this was a different story. We know FF was going to get 10 more episodes, but then axed the idea.

AT-Man
04-15-2017, 03:43 AM
Some 10 years ago I asked about this episode from ninjaturtles.com and got the following answers from Dan Berger:


(if the episode is canon?)

"I can't say with absolute authority as that type of decision will be made by Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine if/when the characters appear in a future episode. More than likely it won't be part of official continuity since the subject matter was deemed too grim for a children's cartoon series."

(what happened in the episode?)

"Hun runs into the TMNT in a junkyard, but before they can fight, Garbageman shows up in a powerful new robotic suit and captures everyone. Garbageman takes his prisoners back to "Recycle World" (apparently his new realm). When everyone wakes up, Garbageman reveals that Hun and he were conjoined twins - but Hun hired a shady doctor to separate them. Hun left his twin behind, thinking that he would perish - but the doc performed experiments on him and turned him into Garbageman. Thus he's looking for revenge against the TMNT and his brother, Hun, and he drops them onto a conveyor belt that's heading for some giant, spinning blades. Our heroes escape and turn the tables on their foe. Garbageman ends up falling into a vat of acid and gets flushed out to sea by Hun. Hun and the Turtles leave, thinking that Garbageman is dead - but the final scene shows a bubbling slick of acid rising to the water's surface, with something alive within it - so it looks like Garbageman survived the acid bath."

And supposedly Garbageman's real name was never revealed.

DisKosh
04-15-2017, 04:23 AM
That plot reminds me of the arc in American Horror Story season 4 where one of the conjoined twins considers having an operation to separate them even knowing it may kill her sister.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-15-2017, 06:21 AM
Why couldn't they just be ordinary twins, or brothers instead?

MrPliggins
04-15-2017, 07:44 AM
Actually, Laird did fund the incomplete episodes to be completed with his own money (when it was scrapped it was incomplete), but it wasn't meant to be more than 13 episodes. Also, FF was rushed to completion in order to be ready to air in time. With the character design more simple and streamlined, the episodes were animated quicker.

I agree that Laird is a big reason for the quality of the series. Another time, he funded the ending of "The King", to more closely (exactly) resemble the comic. The original airing's ending just had Don sitting there in the basement and didn't have the Raph shower scene.

TheSkeletonMan939
04-15-2017, 08:55 AM
Why couldn't they just be ordinary twins, or brothers instead?

That's less creepy.

CyberCubed
04-15-2017, 01:02 PM
You can tell the 4kids writers were struggling to come up with ideas for second/third tier villains since PL didn't allow them to use any old Fred Wolf or Archie characters.

I think Ultimate Ninja and Draco were probably the only two successful ones, outside of the popular Hun and Bishop. A lot of the other second/third tier villains were either forgettable or just not interesting. Although I do have a soft spot for Touch and Go since they remind me of Batman villains, lol.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-15-2017, 02:04 PM
That's less creepy.

Yes, but if having them as conjoined twins was too much for a children's cartoon, it would've been the only way.

TheSkeletonMan939
04-15-2017, 04:59 PM
If you read the blog posts, it's clear that Laird only seems interested in his 'conjoined twins' idea. Nothing else in the script is appealing to him. It wouldn't be the first episode script they dropped out of disinterest.

Drose18
04-15-2017, 10:26 PM
Did they almost drop any other episodes? Or anything like this happen to another episode? There was master figher 2105 I think was one.

CyberCubed
04-15-2017, 11:55 PM
Did they almost drop any other episodes? Or anything like this happen to another episode? There was master figher 2105 I think was one.

There were 10 planned more FF episodes, but most of them didn't have any finished scripts or VA besides "Master Fighter 2105." PL had them on his blog, most of them were just concepts or ideas for episodes but not in full script form yet.

neatoman
04-16-2017, 05:35 AM
You can tell the 4kids writers were struggling to come up with ideas for second/third tier villains since PL didn't allow them to use any old Fred Wolf or Archie characters.

Uh, no. The FW characters were rather unispired to begin with, it really didn't matter.

I mean honestly, what were they? Random mad scientists, lame gangster parodies, a bunch of anthropomorphic animals, a literal pile of trash and miscellaneous types of characters nobody remembers? Very little thought went into them to begin with.

I'm convinced the only reason any of them appear now is that they were basically blank slates writers can do whatever they want with, pretty much the opposite of being memorable.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-16-2017, 06:24 AM
This makes me wonder if the "Case of the two-headed biker" Leonardo mentioned in Turtlemainic, holding up a motorcycle helmet for two, is the missing episode 76?

TheSkeletonMan939
04-16-2017, 11:00 AM
Did they almost drop any other episodes? Or anything like this happen to another episode? There was master figher 2105 I think was one.

I believe at some point they were planning another Halloween episode, or at least a very creepy, monster-y episode. The script got dropped in favor of something else.

CyberCubed
04-16-2017, 12:58 PM
Uh, no. The FW characters were rather unispired to begin with, it really didn't matter.

I mean honestly, what were they? Random mad scientists, lame gangster parodies, a bunch of anthropomorphic animals, a literal pile of trash and miscellaneous types of characters nobody remembers? Very little thought went into them to begin with..

Considering they've all returned in IDW and Nick and people seem interested in them again, of course 4kids versions would have been interesting. A 2k3 version of Slash, Mutagen Man, some of the Mutanimals like Mondo Gecko, even Rahzar, etc. would have all fit in just fine. If PL didn't want any Bebop/Rocksteady that's one thing, but everyone else would have worked.

And as said, most of the 4kids created villains wound up being rather unpopular or forgettable outside the two standouts Hun and Bishop. Draco/Ultimate Ninja are probably the next most interesting, then some of the FF villains were cool in concept, but that's really it.

Nobody is dying to see the return of Garbageman, Nano, the butch lesbian from "The Monster Hunter," Quarry or the other underground mutants, the Texas brothers, the bald Atlantis guy from the underground, Kluh of the Battle Nexus, Touch and Go, the various bug/monster mutants from Season 4 like the soldier Bishop mutated and that cockroach mutant, etc.

Hun, Bishop, Ch'rell (if you count him separate from Shredder), maybe Draco and the Ultimate Ninja, and some of the FF villains were the only ones who stood out.

neatoman
04-16-2017, 02:39 PM
Considering they've all returned in IDW and Nick and people seem interested in them again, of course 4kids versions would have been interesting.

"All"? Tell me, where's the IDW issue or Nick episode featuring Don Turtelli the tickling mob boss? Or Mad Dog McMutt, who lived in a giant fire hydrant? Or Bugman?

Like I said, I don't think Slash for example came back because because he was a good character ("I WANT MY BINKY!"), more because he was an OK concept the writers could do whatever they wanted with because the original character varied between bland and lame. Why do you honestly think Tom Waltz would dig up a character from season 8 who turns into a bug when absorbing electricity? Because he's such a famed and interesting character? No, he did it because the story required a mercenary group and there he found one.

CyberCubed
04-16-2017, 03:51 PM
"All"? Tell me, where's the IDW issue or Nick episode featuring Don Turtelli the tickling mob boss? Or Mad Dog McMutt, who lived in a giant fire hydrant? Or Bugman?

You know I meant the major villains. Either way, they just replaced old mob bosses with new ones. Nick has the fat mob boss who was in 3 episodes, IDW had Lupo and his gang working for Dun. What's the difference? There will always be mob/gangsters in TMNT. They don't have to be the same exact characters but they all serve the same purpose.

Like I said, I don't think Slash for example came back because because he was a good character ("I WANT MY BINKY!"), more because he was an OK concept the writers could do whatever they wanted with because the original character varied between bland and lame. Why do you honestly think Tom Waltz would dig up a character from season 8 who turns into a bug when absorbing electricity? Because he's such a famed and interesting character? No, he did it because the story required a mercenary group and there he found one.

Slash is a maniac turtle and an uneasy ally, he is a very easy character to use again.

Also you know good and well IDW/Nick have already brought back or used the majority of big villains from the original cartoon or 90's era in general.

neatoman
04-16-2017, 04:12 PM
You know I meant the major villains. Either way, they just replaced old mob bosses with new ones. Nick has the fat mob boss who was in 3 episodes, IDW had Lupo and his gang working for Dun. What's the difference? There will always be mob/gangsters in TMNT. They don't have to be the same exact characters but they all serve the same purpose.

Slash is a maniac turtle and an uneasy ally, he is a very easy character to use again.

Also you know good and well IDW/Nick have already brought back or used the majority of big villains from the original cartoon or 90's era in general.

True, but my argument that they're more attractive as blank slates than for what they were still stands. There's kind of a reason why they felt they could just take Wyrm and make him a genie, or the Neutrinos into robotic dream invaders, or Hothead as a stand-in for Satan.

IDW doesn't do that to the same extreme as Nick, but it's no secret that you don't really think ruthless Utrom Krang is all that similar to bumbling disembodied brain Krang.

Most of these characters were in, like what? One or two, maybe four episodes tops? And their modern interpretations barely resemble the original depiction, if at all. By taking an old character and slapping more or less what you want on them, you have total creative freedom and you still don't have work entirely from scratch, it's the best of both worlds.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-28-2017, 06:36 AM
Mondo Gecko

Mondo Gecko would be nice.