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Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 11:35 AM
In your mind or in your canon or your collection or whatever, do the Turtles kill?

I know they killed Shredder in the Mirage comics (and presumably some other villains along the way), and they didn't seem especially distraught when Casey killed him in the 1990 film. But then they didn't even use their weapons in some versions of the franchise.

I have a very strange custom in mind, but it hints at considerable violence on the part of the four brothers, and consequently I'm curious to hear how you all regard them, and so...

Do they kill? If so, do they have rules about doing so?

Or are they like (some versions of) Batman, and refusing to kill is their number one rule?

Thanks in advance for your musings and insights.

neatoman
04-25-2017, 11:49 AM
I'm not sure what you're really getting at here... Yes? I guess?

Even outside Mirage they've been shown killing, I don't see why there would be a debate about it, unless someone is in denial about it.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:51 AM
If they're not going to kill, I firmly believe whatever non-killing iteration they find themselves in should fall under the "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" moniker.

Get the "ninja" the hell out of there if you're not going to be serious about it.

Ulisa
04-25-2017, 11:53 AM
Depends on the universe. For most universes, yes, I say the turtles kill though it varies from turtle to turtle how much and when. As a general rule, I have Raph and Leo kill the most though Donnie and Mike are capable of it.

The one universe I change it up is the Fred Wolf universe. In this case, I say they know HOW to kill but don't. They pull out all the stops to deliver non-lethal blows except in the case of robots. Now, do I think they may be driven to that killing blow at some point---absolutely, but outside of fan fiction/fan art, I'd say that's a pretty major rule for them in that universe.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:58 AM
Otherwise, no. No vengeance killing, no 'killing for the greater good' Opponents who surrender or can be knocked out without the turtles risking harm on themselves are tied up, and left for the authorities.

So "Teenage Mutant Samurai Turtles," then?

I mean, I don't mind that the Turtles aren't straight up... killers. And tying up criminals for the authorities is a good way to... not actually put anyone away (what, will the Turtles come and testify at their trial? that's stupid), and that ventures into "crime-fighting" territory, something I think the Turtles have no business doing unless they somehow become involved in it (i.e., if they happen to be walking down the street and some thug robs a woman, yeah, they might step in). Their "judgement" would be meted out fairly, in terms of who they kill and who they don't.

I don't see a problem with vengeance killing. And, now, if there's ever a situation where they are fighting an opponent, and opponent is down and they know that said opponent is just going to come back and try to kill them again? Of course they should and would kill them. They're not Batman.

IndigoErth
04-25-2017, 12:16 PM
Only if they must out of self protection or that of others. If it's the only way to really stop someone legit "evil," then they do what they must. Even if they don't always feel too good about having to.

More typical non-murderous (as of yet) criminal sorts... Nah. Give them a good beating as a warning. Leaving them tied up for up police might not work out too badly if there was a witness who had made the call to police in the first place and could to the talking.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 12:26 PM
Why would the Turtles busy themselves patrolling and protecting a society they have no part of? That's silliness. That's trying to dumb down the TMNT to be like every other comic book superhero vigilante and it's wrong.

Candy Kappa
04-25-2017, 12:27 PM
"A sword is a weapon, the art of swordmanship is learning how to kill."

DestronMirage22
04-25-2017, 12:59 PM
Of course they kill. They don't go out of their way to straight up murder everyone in sight, but if their own lives (or the life of a loved one) were in peril they would fight to the death.
That goes without saying that they do have honor, and have given their enemies the opportunity to commit seppuku without them outright killing them.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
04-25-2017, 01:10 PM
They fight to defend themselves and friends, not to kill. But at the end, a lot of fights end with someone getting killed.

plastroncafe
04-25-2017, 01:19 PM
If they weren't prepared to be killers they wouldn't walk around with weapons used for killing.

Stephen
04-25-2017, 01:54 PM
they didn't seem especially distraught when Casey killed him in the 1990 film.

That was Splinter - Shredder falls off a building. Casey beats up Tatsu, but doesn't kill him.

IndigoErth
04-25-2017, 02:06 PM
I think he means when Casey crushes him in the garbage truck compactor.


Heck, Casey thought nothing of it, despite not even personally encountering Shredder or seeing what went on between him and the Turtles on the rooftop. For all he could have really known or heard from the ground, Splinter could have been trying to save some guy from falling and then Casey just assumes and kills the guy. :tlol: (edit: Now I want a rewrite where it isn't Shredder, just some guy who tried to get involved, so everyone is looking over the edge of the buliding like "Wtf, Casey??" lol)

plastroncafe
04-25-2017, 02:08 PM
And it's not like they dove to save Shredder. They all just stood there and watched him fall to what could have been his death.

Powder
04-25-2017, 02:51 PM
They kill in the universes they've killed in.

Anything else isn't for me to decide, that's just head-canon.

AquaParade
04-25-2017, 03:22 PM
To me, the turtles can't really help but be killers. They were born into a loop of violence and revenge. It's part of their origin.

I think this tends to get ignored because it doesn't necessarily feel good to think about, and we want our turtle stories to be fun, alongside being dramatic, exciting, etc.

The fact is, the turtles being born into that never ending cycle of revenge doesn't make them "evil" or "bad". It's actually quite tragic..
They do their best to escape anarchy, or cut it off at it's root, but it mostly just perpetuates the violence.

By the time we roll around to "City at War", they want nothing more than to see a way out of it, even if it means aligning themselves with "The Foot".

The turtles/Splinter don't condone unnecissary violence, but they will do whatever it takes to protect themselves and their family. Like most everyone would.

ssjup81
04-25-2017, 03:38 PM
Why would the Turtles busy themselves patrolling and protecting a society they have no part of? That's silliness. That's trying to dumb down the TMNT to be like every other comic book superhero vigilante and it's wrong.To get them out of the sewers to stretch their legs? They have martial arts training...might as well use it somewhere and it sucks being confined to being underground.

Netkeeper
04-25-2017, 04:31 PM
"A sword is a weapon, the art of swordmanship is learning how to kill."
http://i.imgur.com/XS5LK.gif

DarkFell
04-25-2017, 04:36 PM
That was Splinter - Shredder falls off a building. Casey beats up Tatsu, but doesn't kill him.
Actually, Oroku Saki killed himself - he threw a knife at Splinter's head. Splinter caught it, Saki got dropped.

Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 06:04 PM
Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful replies, folks!

Put simply: I have a skull I plan to incorporate into a "custom" as a trophy of sorts, but in my own head canon (neither beholden to the gritty seriousness of Mirage nor anything like as silly as the Fred Wolf toons), the Turtles keeping a foe's skull seems a bit dark and weird, so I'm trying to come up with a narrative justification.


I'm not sure what you're really getting at here... I don't see why there would be a debate about it, unless someone is in denial about it.

Because this is a franchise spanning several decades and countless tones and audiences? Because for every die-hard Mirage purist there are hundreds of people who only know the Turtles from a silly and decidedly non-violent cartoon?


The one universe I change it up is the Fred Wolf universe. In this case, I say they know HOW to kill but don't.

I loved when one of the Nick Turtles derisively said to the classic Turtles, "You don't even fight with your weapons!"


I think he means when Casey crushes him in the garbage truck compactor.

Indeed.


Heck, Casey thought nothing of it, despite not even personally encountering Shredder or seeing what went on between him and the Turtles on the rooftop. For all he could have really known or heard from the ground, Splinter could have been trying to save some guy from falling and then Casey just assumes and kills the guy. :tlol: (edit: Now I want a rewrite where it isn't Shredder, just some guy who tried to get involved, so everyone is looking over the edge of the buliding like "Wtf, Casey??" lol)

Ha ha, I'd never really thought of it like that. Hilarious!


Andrew, this idea Ninja are never ever "crime fighters" or all of them lack a a moral code is a silly concept. As has been said, 'ninjas' in japan are anyone who practices a set of martial arts stealth techniques for any purpose, ninjas are not just assassins. Anyone who uses those stealth based martial arts is a ninja; a ninja clan can protect a village or shrine from criminals or bandits, another clan can be mercenaries for hire, another clan can be saboteurs, and another might be assassins. The idea that only the assassins who use those techniques are ninja, or that ninjas are primarily assassins and can't be 'good guys', is a WESTERN IDEA, it's a Frank Miller-ism.

If anyone went to Japan, and tried to claim 'ninjas aren't heroes' you'd be LAUGHED AT. There are three sentai teams who are ninja, multiple anime with heroic ninja, and Japanese historical fiction is full of noble ninjas. Most versions of the TMNT has had Splinter with a code of honor, and teaching it to the turtles. And the idea of them being crime fighters isn't a 'goofy' as you pretend it is. It appears in the non-mirage versions that Splinter raised them to see New York as the Hamato Clan's protectorate, so patrolling it and protecting is citizens from criminals in the darkness of the night under the cover of shadow, is little different from the ninja clans who protected villages in the sengoku era.

I don't usually quote something this long, but I endorse every word. The pedantic folks who feel their preferred take is the only relevant or accurate version of the mythos are stunted, silly and tiresome.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 07:38 PM
I'm sure we can dig deep into history or folk tales from Japanese villages and find something, you know, about Ryu, the Noble Ninja who baked bread for the homeless and refused to kill anyone or something, or Bob Hatsu, the ninja who used to ward off crows from farmlands and stopped thieves... but the simple fact is, that's not the kind of ninja the TMNT were written to be or ever intended to be.

Not ever. Eastman and Laird were crystal clear about what kind of ninja the TMNT are intended to be right there in Mirage vol. 1, #1.

Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 07:47 PM
Eastman and Laird were crystal clear about what kind of ninja the TMNT are intended to be right there in Mirage vol. 1, #1.

Ah, volume 1, #1... which Andrew would have us all believe is the One Ring. The Bible. The only possible version of the franchise.

You know what else Eastman and Laird did?

Sold the entire property so other people could interpret it.

Sing a different tune, man. You've used this same pedantic, fussy, non-compromising tone for years on this forum.

Why someone who is so clearly dead set against a dialogue would join a forum is something I will never understand.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 07:52 PM
Ah, volume 1, #1... which Andrew would have us all believe is the One Ring. The Bible. The only possible version of the franchise.

It's the only one beyond maybe the first movie that's not unabashedly made for little toy-buying kids.

Points to IDW for doing... fairly well. But Nick has their hands tied.

You know what else Eastman and Laird did?

Sold the entire property so other people could interpret it.

Pretty sure they only sold it to make a lot of money. Or in Laird's case, more personal reasons... but "so let's see what others will interpret" was definitely not one of them.

IndigoErth
04-25-2017, 07:53 PM
Characters grow, ya know.

What writer (no matter what kind of writing), fully knows what their characters will ultimately grow into down the road when only writing the first chapter/issue? After all, when they wrote the first they didn't originally have intention for it to continue. They were what they wanted them to be in that first book, but why shouldn't they grow and develop beyond that when they got to know their characters more. And it's not like they didn't.

But, dear Andrew, we know to you what's "right" is very limited and fits neatly in a small box of "right" things...
http://i.imgur.com/EI0HY3Z.gif
Your prerogative and right to prefer it the way you do, but you're gonna give yourself a hernia over believing everyone else so "wrong" all the time or giving a damn over other people's rightful preferred take on it; esp when they're basing it on canon you don't like, but canon none the less.

Jester
04-25-2017, 08:00 PM
I dunna, they are pretty friendly with a force for justice....

Just sayin'.

Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 08:07 PM
It's the only one beyond maybe the first movie that's not unabashedly made for little toy-buying kids.

And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.


Pretty sure they only sold it to make a lot of money. Or in Laird's case, more personal reasons... but "so let's see what others will interpret" was definitely not one of them.

Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights. They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.


Characters grow, ya know.

[nerdrage all caps]That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky![/nerdrage all caps] etc.


They have human friends in every version, and strive to protect not only those friends, but any human in need they come across. They have been blatantly made heroes in 4 kids, the next mutation, and several other versions where Eastman or Laird were in control... cases where they actively chose to make them heroes...

Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid. :roll:

Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 08:16 PM
you missed my quote from that exact issue, that makes the whole argument invalid to begin with. :lol:

Oops! Ha ha ha!

plastroncafe
04-25-2017, 10:18 PM
Has there been an incarnation of the Turtles where they haven't implied a killer instinct in one way or another?

I mean, even FW had Raphael stabbing a Footbot in what would have been a pretty lethal blow had it been human and not a robot that went klang.

2k3 had the Utrom Shredder reveal by beheading.

Krutch
04-25-2017, 10:41 PM
I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

TMNT meets Spawn and heads into Hell to fight the Devil and his army? Sure, makes sense.
TMNT meets John Cena and has to solve the mystery of who stole the Money in the Bank suitcase? Sure, I can see that, too.

It's one of the most endearing qualities of the product.

So are they killers? Sure. Sometimes. Or depending on the iteration, absolutely not. Ever. :D

Coola Yagami
04-25-2017, 10:51 PM
And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.




Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights. They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.




[nerdrage all caps]That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky![/nerdrage all caps] etc.




Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid. :roll:

But the turtles do kill in battle. Even in the most recent volume 4 they didn't shy from killing in battle. If Laird comes back to wrap up volume 4 in 2020 or whatever, there will be deaths.

Its not just mirage 1 #1. What about volumes 2 and 4?

And the characters don't grow? Again, volume 2 and 4. Hell city at war even helped casey and April's characters grow.

Wildcat
04-25-2017, 10:57 PM
For me no. They only kill "true evil" like Nick or 4kids Shredder. In my head-canon they don't kill just because they can or to stop any 'ol enemy. That would be arrogant and mindless.

I have not read any comics. I know it was originally more violent but beyond Mirage 1 or whatever I have no idea what the tone is then or now.

I agree Ninjas are not primarily meant to be killers. I mean if I learn martial arts doesn't mean I plan to be some kind of assassin. I could do it to for self defense or to defend others. Carrying weapons doesn't equal intent to kill.

Monte Williams
04-25-2017, 11:06 PM
I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

TMNT meets Spawn and heads into Hell to fight the Devil and his army? Sure, makes sense.
TMNT meets John Cena and has to solve the mystery of who stole the Money in the Bank suitcase? Sure, I can see that, too.

It's one of the most endearing qualities of the product.

So are they killers? Sure. Sometimes. Or depending on the iteration, absolutely not. Ever. :D


This. All the this.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:15 PM
Characters grow, ya know.

Or de-volve.

Ya know.

Your prerogative and right to prefer it the way you do, but you're gonna give yourself a hernia over believing everyone else so "wrong" all the time or giving a damn over other people's rightful preferred take on it; esp when they're basing it on canon you don't like, but canon none the less.

A hernia? Hardly. It's not on my radar at all. Why would it be?

In most versions besides Mirage,

Ah, so most versions other than the source material. As long as we're clear on that.

No, they are not 'super heroes' actively seeking out criminals to stop, but they go on patrols to sharpen their ninja skills, and any person they see being attacked, they save. To the grateful people who they have rescued from muggers or murderers, I think they wouldn't care if their rescuers were active crime fighters, or just happened to come by and save them.

OK, OK, I can live with that as a pass-time, but not as a "Our duty to the city, to mankind, is to protect it!" It just shouldn't be dwelled on or be their main thing or go-to.

Because that's absurd.

I dunna, they are pretty friendly with a force for justice....

Just sayin'.

You...

And every one of those iterations designed for little toy-buying kids is completely legit and relevant and has an audience of its own.

Absolutely. Let's meet them.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Vw80vYiZfe4/hqdefault.jpg

and...

http://winecurmudgeon.com/wp-content/uploads/hipster.jpeg

Way to miss the point. If they were so concerned with the true meaning of ninja in their property, they'd have retained the rights.

Whuh? Why would they be so concerned with the true meaning of ninja? They weren't, while they held it, as they kept it consistent in most/all of the Mirage/Image material right up to Mirage Vol. 4 that Laird made damn sure he still holds the rights to do 18 issues a year of.

But real life issues trumped such things on behalf of Laird and, about 9 years beforehand, Eastman... none of which help your case.

If someone put a briefcase with 60 million dollars and said, Andrew Modeen, you've worked 30 years on this thing with mutant gerbils that adhere strictly to the samurai code that's cost you marriages and quality of life, do you accept? Of course I'd bite my lip and pride and say "Yes."

They'd have never let the property become a cartoon in the '80s, let alone a merchandizing juggernaut emblazoned on cereal boxes and paper plates and who knows what else.

They wanted to not be poor. I'd do the same. No one was going to get rich off of Mirage Vol. 1 alone... but that doesn't mean the subsequent children's spinoff stuff is Shakespeare either. They let their hands off the reins there, intentionally, because...

*gasp*

... it was intended for little kids. It took off. It did well, as such.

Your condescending one-note tantrums are convincing nobody. You are an intelligent, enthusiastic person, but damn if your contributions aren't inane and predictable and closed-minded.

I can live with that.

{nerdrage all caps}That is totally unacceptable! Mirage only! Trukk not munky!{/nerdrage all caps} etc.

OK.

Apparently you missed that this is the Mirage Volume 1, #1 Forum, so your comment is invalid. :roll:

You would have done a lot better to say, "Andrew, you dumb son of a b*tch, you're posting on a board called the TECHNODROME! That's a Fred Wolf thing!"

I give you that one free.

Yeahhh, the fact that they run around with the justice force in mirage, and the justice force treats them like fellow superheroes, and their adventures with the justice force go down like superhero stories... kinda takes an interesting slant of this whole argument, don't it?

Not really, for two reasons. One, that was Laird free of Eastman, two, that was more of a parody of the more (then) modern-day superheroes juxtaposed against the TMNT, I think, to show how ridiculous that world is next to the TMNT and how they probably can't fit into it.

Which isn't to say that was a one-off thing. I'm well aware Laird went back to it in 4Kids, and even had Mikey become a bonafide superhero. He liked exploring that dichotomy.

I think what I adore most about this franchise is it's flexibility to adapt to whatever box you want to put it in effortlessly.

It's very corporate friendly, to be sure.

But the turtles do kill in battle. Even in the most recent volume 4 they didn't shy from killing in battle. If Laird comes back to wrap up volume 4 in 2020 or whatever, there will be deaths.

Its not just mirage 1 #1. What about volumes 2 and 4?

What about 3?

And the characters don't grow? Again, volume 2 and 4. Hell city at war even helped casey and April's characters grow.

Arguably more than anything before or since. Arguably more there than anything else in any other media/children's spinoff.

For me no. They only kill "true evil" like Nick or 4kids Shredder. In my head-canon they don't kill just because they can or to stop any 'ol enemy. That would be arrogant and mindless.

Eh... agreed. If some guy in an alley sees them walking by in trenchcoats tries to "mug" them and they get the drop on him... I can buy that they probably wouldn't just put a katana down his throat. At the same time, though, in the heat of the battle I don't see them having this deep-seated Batman-like impulse about "YOU CAN'T KILL!!!" preventing them from doing so like an instinct.

I have not read any comics. I know it was originally more violent but beyond Mirage 1 or whatever I have no idea what the tone is then or now.

Volume 4 faltered a few years ago. The stuff now isn't connected to it... it's mandated by Nick to mostly be blood-free, but absolutely killing free (on the Turtles' part).

I agree Ninjas are not primarily meant to be killers. I mean if I learn martial arts doesn't mean I plan to be some kind of assassin.

Those things don't necessarily work together. It's kind of like saying, "Radicalized Muslims aren't primarily meant to be killers. If I learn some form of organized religion, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, etc., that doesn't mean I want to kill."

Sort of meaningless.

I could do it to for self defense or to defend others. Carrying weapons doesn't equal intent to kill.

Though it does denote a willingness. Otherwise, what's the point? A deterrent? A metaphorical scarecrow, you carry with you?

That's not the TMNT. That's not remotely the TMNT.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:25 PM
And I can't speak for Laird, as probably -- maybe -- if it was up to him alone, there wouldn't have been any "Ninja" in the title at all (which is the beauty of the Eastman-Laird dichotomy... these are the Yin and Yang that come together in excellence!)... but Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.

DestronMirage22
04-25-2017, 11:33 PM
Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.

Yeah, I've always liked what each of the guys has done with the TMNT by themselves. Laird with his sci-fi, and Eastman with his dark-and-gritty. Admittedly Kevin's stuff has been more fun to read, with how over the top things can get.

Also, would it be wrong to admit I actually, sort of, kind of liked Bodycount? :teek:

Wildcat
04-25-2017, 11:39 PM
@AndrewNDB, Carrying weapons can still be used for non-lethal reasons. To wound someone so you can escape or rescue someone.

Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.

Even in the heat of battle you don't suddenly forget your personal morals and figure what the heck I'll just mow these people down.

Why are you so intent on proving the turtles must be some kind of kill-or-be-killed vigilante brutes?

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:42 PM
Yeah, I've always liked what each of the guys has done with the TMNT by themselves. Laird with his sci-fi, and Eastman with his dark-and-gritty. Admittedly Kevin's stuff has been more fun to read, with how over the top things can get.

Also, would it be wrong to admit I actually, sort of, kind of liked Bodycount? :teek:

I liked Bodycount just fine for what it was. Would I like to see more of that? Not really, but I appreciate the hell out of it as a passion project from Eastman that was totally balls-out.

And yeah. Laird alone? You get vol. 2 and 4. Eastman alone? You get something like Bodycount. Both of those things, somewhat unsatisfying to hardcore lovers of early Mirage, RTNY and CAW Mirage. But you marry the two, those two entirely different kinds of storytellings and even focus... magic happens.

Andrew NDB
04-25-2017, 11:49 PM
@AndrewNDB, Carrying weapons can still be used for non-lethal reasons. To wound someone so you can escape or rescue someone.

Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.

Even in the heat of battle you don't suddenly forget your personal morals and figure what the heck I'll just mow these people down.

Why are you so intent on proving the turtles must be some kind of kill-or-be-killed vigilante brutes?

I don't need to prove it. It's right there on the page. Many pages. Over decades. It's called "the actual TMNT media and universe in which they were created which has endured until technically now and when and if Laird decides to officially stop any pretense of releasing new issues."

Andrew, we get it. You see the TMNT mirage as a work of art that has been violated by evil Mccorporation (TM) and kid-pandering. You are free to like that version as presented in the original mirage material, and it can be said that from an artistic standpoint, everything that came after was a step down.

And we also know where you stand. Quite well. And what you're hiding behind.

But... the rest of us don't see things the way you do. Most of us... and the general populace... like our bebops and rocksteadys, our krangs and technodromes.

I'm sorry.

Source material and E&L intent don't mean anything to us, no matter what you say or do.

Given who you are, that's not entirely surprising you'd say that. But even if you were a random TMNT fan off the street... that still seems pretty sad of one to say.

Panda_Kahn_fan
04-25-2017, 11:52 PM
....

Fine, whatever. I'm not a plant, I'm not Garcia, I don't work for Nick, and I really don't care anymore. :trolleye:

Wildcat
04-25-2017, 11:56 PM
Hey Kevin has that YouTube channel. We should ask him if TMNT is and was meant to be exactly like Andrew says :lol:

Candy Kappa
04-26-2017, 12:58 AM
The Foot Clan in the Nick cartoon got really thinned out after meeting the Turtles hence the Footbots, I doubt they all just ran away.

Carrying a sword or any blade doesn't mean that I must eventually kill somebody with it. Just because..."well I have it with me" ? That's kinda dumb.

If you use it on another person, then yes. You can and will end up killing someone. You can't just stab a person non-lethally with a sword, no such thing. There may be techniques where to stab/slash a person with best outcome to not kill, but it isn't like the movies when a person drop right away. You can fatally wound someone and they die later due to damaged organs or bleeding out because a artery was cut.

So unless you live in an actual cartoon, swinging a sword to hit another person's flesh is an act of trying to kill them.

Wildcat
04-26-2017, 03:04 AM
Well sure you might fatally wound someone because they bled out or you hit a vital organ but that's if you really lay into them.

We're talking about intent though. Accidentally causing a potentially fatal wound in a fight is not the same as purposely killing someone just because you can.

Andrew was arguing that the Turtles were meant to be kill-or-be-killed characters. Which was probably true for the original comics (like I said I never read them).

However he seemed to keep implying that's the No. 1 way they should portrayed and that Ninja can mean nothing else but ruthless assassin.

Coola Yagami
04-26-2017, 09:03 AM
I say in a normal Foot battle in the comics, the turtles do their best to take them out clean and fast. That means knock them out, immobilize them or if the sword happens to swing a certain way, kill them. The difference is, most times the bad guys in the comics aren't content with just a beat down and walk away to 'teach them a lesson' or just rough em up to capture them. There is no 'don't kill them though, i want them alive' bs the typical champagne glass evil cat petter would say. They're out to kill the turtles. The turtles fight in a realistic way of self defense. Not to purposely kill, but not to go ridiculously out of their way to not kill because 'killing is wrong kids'. I wouldn't say the turtles are 100% realistic, far from it, but when they fight it's for self defense and survival, not to teach the reader any morals.

It also kinda means, if you're a foot ninja, try to go after mike and don. You have better chances of living to see another day. Plus whenever Leo does stab someone.... dude, he has 2 big swords. What do you ****ing expect will happen to you if you go at someone that has swords???? It sure won't be cutting a curtain to have it fall on you.

Let's not forget all the pizza tossing and chandelier dropping was mostly because they were barely allowed to actually punch and kick guys.

I purposely left out volume 3 to avoid anyone telling me its been turned non-canon. However at the time it was canon and hey, deaths.

AquaParade
04-26-2017, 09:35 AM
And I can't speak for Laird, as probably -- maybe -- if it was up to him alone, there wouldn't have been any "Ninja" in the title at all (which is the beauty of the Eastman-Laird dichotomy... these are the Yin and Yang that come together in excellence!)... but Eastman? I went to bat for him, with him when the comic book rights were being bandied about after the Viacom/Nickelodeon sale with Boom! and other studios... what he wanted to do, what he was pitching around would have made the "Bodycount" comic look like The Smurfs, in the best possible way.

Point being? Eastman likes his Ninja Turtles acting like ninjas. And then some.

Now this is interesting. Any other details on Kevin trying to take back the reigns of tmnt or what direction he may have wanted to take it? Ultimate fan speculation **** you just dropped.

Andrew NDB
04-26-2017, 09:57 AM
Now this is interesting. Any other details on Kevin trying to take back the reigns of tmnt or what direction he may have wanted to take it? Ultimate fan speculation **** you just dropped.

It was to be "A Return to New York sequel" (not a "City at War" sequel, note) taking place a short time after that story. A standalone 12 issue maxi-series thing he would at the very least write the story of (not necessarily the scripts), layout, and illustrate. "Very bloody, very intense, moving at a breakneck speed" is about how he described it. And yes, he threw in comparisons to "The Raid" and "District 13" in his descriptions, which was funny when I later saw him comparing the fighting in the 2014 movie to them as well.

At the time, right after the sale, Kevin Eastman was very, very keen on godfathering new TMNT comics. That maxi-series would have been the ground level of it. Basically... a new action-oriented Mirage TMNT Vol. 5, but set way earlier. When the Boom! thing didn't happen he was shepherded to IDW, who was already cooking up their stuff. He's actually old friends with the IDW CEO. He got in the door there and basically settled for that arrangement.

Konchadunga
04-26-2017, 11:44 AM
I prefer the Turtles to be willing to kill, but not for the sake of a contract. That also means, not frequently. They should kill:

1) If under attack by enemies who would kill them if they didn't.
2) If an enemy is so threatening to them/their loved ones/everyone that the enemy needs to be eliminated for the greater good. Also, presumably there would be obviously no other option involving the proper legal authorities.

plastroncafe
04-26-2017, 11:55 AM
Well sure you might fatally wound someone because they bled out or you hit a vital organ but that's if you really lay into them.

We're talking about intent though. Accidentally causing a potentially fatal wound in a fight is not the same as purposely killing someone just because you can.

Andrew was arguing that the Turtles were meant to be kill-or-be-killed characters. Which was probably true for the original comics (like I said I never read them).

However he seemed to keep implying that's the No. 1 way they should portrayed and that Ninja can mean nothing else but ruthless assassin.

If they're going to be drawn/animated/written as carrying lethal weapons, it should be assumed that they are prepared to use those weapons lethally.

People shouldn't carry a gun, for instance, unless they're prepared to use deadly force.

Also...um, you don't have to really lay into someone to kill them with a lethal weapon. And most organs are vital. The ones that aren't, are really REALLY close to the ones that are. There's a reason they're called lethal weapons.

Cryomancer
04-26-2017, 12:03 PM
The turtles aren't concerned with the laws of man in general, really. Why would they even apply to them? They operate on their own personal moral family code and well, they were raised to avenge death with more death, so yeah.

I don't think they like to kill or anything, but it's something they do.

Tetsu Deinonychus
04-26-2017, 12:26 PM
It also kinda means, if you're a foot ninja, try to go after mike and don. You have better chances of living to see another day.

I don't know. Donatello was the one who declared "No one leaves!" in Return to NY. When it comes to their war with the foot, they can all be pretty brutal.

It's important to remember that there are Mirage issues besides Vol. 1 Issue #1 and I feel that issue suffers from "Early Installment Weirdness". Judging by the way they are in most of Mirage, I'd say they try to avoid unnecessary killing, but if an enemy is just too evil or dangerous to keep alive or there's no other way to stop them, they won't hesitate to put their ninja skills to their true purpose and finish the job. And, I prefer them that way over them being ruthless killing machines or adhering to a strict no killing policy.

Though, when it comes to Foot Ninja they just go "Brock Samson" on them, but that's a personal vendetta.

As for other versions, even the FW TMNT blew up Dregg at the end of the series, and found out the Foot Soldiers were robots by attempting to kill them. The Archie TMNT slaughtered Malignoids with no problems. Nick!Leo decapitated Shredder just like Mirage!Leo, and 4Kids!Leo attempted the same not knowing he was an Utrom. So, most major versions are at least willing to kill if it's necessary.

As for "Crime Fighting" I imagine that when they happen to encounter crime they do something about it. But, they don't usually go looking for crime to fight (unless they just want someone to fight, like Raph).

MikeandRaph87
04-26-2017, 02:51 PM
The TMNT I grew up with is the 1987 cartoon and I see the core values carry over outside of the black and white comics. I prefer the TMNT follow a 'no kill' policy. A number of the other most popular super heroes follow the code like Superman and Spider-Man and it makes them better than the evil they face. Killing a villain to stop them no matter what act he/she has done brings them down to their opponent's level. The TMNT are both ninjas and mutants and a key theme is not assassin but that of survival. They don't have to kill to survive. They need to stop them in order to prevent further harm to them, others, the city, or even the planet. Yes, in an iteration or two the TMNT are murderers. Just like Batman was in the beginning. Yet soon just like Batman they were adapted for everyone and it became a part of who they are. I admit if a lady love was killed I would want nothing more than to end the killer's life as well. Yet even if the TMNT,Batman,Robin/Nightwing,Superman,Spider-Man have that same urge they rise above it and don't descend into the same act their enemies do. They are better than them and us the average Joe Citizen.

I also don't like having Shredder, Krang, or Rat King killed off for good. I feel a world without the key villains brings a lack of direction and point to it all. That is just me.

Coola Yagami
04-26-2017, 05:52 PM
Yet even if the TMNT,Batman,Robin/Nightwing,Superman,Spider-Man have that same urge they rise above it and don't descend into the same act their enemies do. They are better than them and us the average Joe Citizen.



True but the turtles aren't superheroes. They're not out to save the world, they're not out to show humanity how to better themselves. They're all about living their lives unless **** comes their way.

Superman is all about showing us that we can be better, and Spidernan and Batman feel the need to go out every night until every last lowlife is put in jail, which will never happen. The turtles aren't about that.

If a dude breaks into your house with a gun and youre lucky enough to have one, you're not gonna be thinking of morals and shoot him in the knee. Nor are you gonna hit the guy over the head with a vase or something while being extra careful to not straight up kill the guy. That's how i see the turtles and the foot. They endanger themselves and their loved ones so they must be taken out.

And yes, excellent points. Don't give a guy trained in bladed weapons, a pair of bladed weapons.... and then have him throw kicks instead.

AquaParade
04-26-2017, 08:30 PM
It was to be "A Return to New York sequel" (not a "City at War" sequel, note) taking place a short time after that story. A standalone 12 issue maxi-series thing he would at the very least write the story of (not necessarily the scripts), layout, and illustrate. "Very bloody, very intense, moving at a breakneck speed" is about how he described it. And yes, he threw in comparisons to "The Raid" and "District 13" in his descriptions, which was funny when I later saw him comparing the fighting in the 2014 movie to them as well.

At the time, right after the sale, Kevin Eastman was very, very keen on godfathering new TMNT comics. That maxi-series would have been the ground level of it. Basically... a new action-oriented Mirage TMNT Vol. 5, but set way earlier. When the Boom! thing didn't happen he was shepherded to IDW, who was already cooking up their stuff. He's actually old friends with the IDW CEO. He got in the door there and basically settled for that arrangement.

I want you to know I do appreciate you bringing me to tears like this.

Ignorance is bliss, people.

Seriously, that sound really cool. Maybe IDW will let him get away with something like that one day. Unlikely, but we can hope.

Andrew NDB
04-26-2017, 09:30 PM
Maybe IDW will let him get away with something like that one day. Unlikely, but we can hope.

If IDW had their way, I'm sure they would. Nick won't let IDW have the Turtles kill anyone... let alone let Eastman have his bloody magnum opus. I don't see that really ever changing in the foreseeable future.

Coola Yagami
04-26-2017, 10:24 PM
If IDW had their way, I'm sure they would. Nick won't let IDW have the Turtles kill anyone... let alone let Eastman have his bloody magnum opus. I don't see that really ever changing in the foreseeable future.

That's the risk they took when a company known mostly for kids stuff took over. Spongebob and Bloodbath don't seem to belong in the same sentence.

Though I do admit it would be funny to see Body Count with the Nickelodeon logo in the corner, lmao.

Wildcat
04-26-2017, 10:26 PM
If they're going to be drawn/animated/written as carrying lethal weapons, it should be assumed that they are prepared to use those weapons lethally.

People shouldn't carry a gun, for instance, unless they're prepared to use deadly force.

Also...um, you don't have to really lay into someone to kill them with a lethal weapon. And most organs are vital. The ones that aren't, are really REALLY close to the ones that are. There's a reason they're called lethal weapons.For the record I said before I'm not against the turtles killing but only if it's "true evil" If they NEED to kill someone that's fine.

My point about weapons in general was that you don't have to have intent to kill to justify carrying them. It's really up to you how you choose to use them.

I know a bladed weapon (in this case swords/sais) can easily cause a fatal blow. Again I'm talking intent.

Ninjinister
04-26-2017, 10:26 PM
I don't have turtles.

DestronMirage22
04-26-2017, 10:36 PM
I don't have turtles.

I feel for you buddy. :lol:

To answer the question in the literal sense, yes my turtles are killers. They take pleasure in ripping their grasshoppers/crickets/worms in half just before they eat 'em too. Ahh, the beauty of nature! :D

Coola Yagami
04-26-2017, 10:41 PM
For the record I said before I'm not against the turtles killing but only if it's "true evil" If they NEED to kill someone that's fine.

My point about weapons in general was that you don't have to have intent to kill to justify carrying them. It's really up to you how you choose to use them.

I know a bladed weapon (in this case swords/sais) can easily cause a fatal blow. Again I'm talking intent.

The thing is, most of the times, the enemies they face are that dangerous that they need to be taken out to ensure their personal safety and that of April and Casey and whoever else they associate with. I wouldn't say the Turtles would kill muggers and whatnot, they'd probably rough them up a bit or give them a good scare. The Foot however, is no laughing matter and it's almost suicidal to just 'let them get away until next time'. I mean Savanti almost ruined all of existence, yeah, let's give him a slap on the wrist, I'm sure he won't try to mess with time ever again.

Wildcat
04-26-2017, 10:54 PM
The thing is, most of the times, the enemies they face are that dangerous that they need to be taken out to ensure their personal safety and that of April and Casey and whoever else they associate with. I wouldn't say the Turtles would kill muggers and whatnot, they'd probably rough them up a bit or give them a good scare. The Foot however, is no laughing matter and it's almost suicidal to just 'let them get away until next time'. I mean Savanti almost ruined all of existence, yeah, let's give him a slap on the wrist, I'm sure he won't try to mess with time ever again.I think the Nick cartoon and the 4kids did a good job portraying thier "moral code". It's pretty much how I see them. I used Nick/4kids Shredder as my first example for who they'd kill.

Candy Kappa
04-27-2017, 02:28 AM
I don't have turtles.

I feel for you buddy. :lol:

To answer the question in the literal sense, yes my turtles are killers. They take pleasure in ripping their grasshoppers/crickets/worms in half just before they eat 'em too. Ahh, the beauty of nature! :D

Reminds me of when I tried to introduce fish in my turtle tank. It actually went really well, I bought mostly "bargain bin" fish to test it out and three of those fish that sticks on the glass.

Besides a few casualties the turtles seemed to grow tired to chasing the fish, 2 of the 3 suckers got eaten. But the last one grew huge, like he was as big as the turtles. After a couple of months I found the big sucker fish floating upside-down, no visible injuries, just dead. And the night after the turtles had cleaned the whole tank off the fish, there wasn't a single trace that I had fish in it, around 50 fish was just gone.

Ninjinister
04-27-2017, 03:11 AM
I actually didn't mean like... in the "pet" sense. I mean since I don't own the license, no incarnation is "my" turtles.

It weirds me out when people are like "this isn't my X" when it's like... You don't have X thing. You didn't make it, you don't own the rights.

myconius
04-27-2017, 05:56 AM
I don't have turtles.

i don't have turtles either.

though i did have a dog that used to catch wasps and hornets in his mouth and chew them to death. never got stung either. darnedest thing.

Rooish
04-27-2017, 06:26 AM
If Eastman had produced that storyline it would have been a chaotic mess of Raph and his Interchangeable Brothers.

Balance is key. I'm glad we had Volume 2 which was more down to earth and character driven, despite its faults.

"My" turtles do kill when necessary but, as in the Mirage comics, they are a bit traumatized from being child soldiers and eventually tone it down.

I do have a bit of trouble imagining Mike deliberately killing but the others have shown the capacity. And those nunchaku can kill whether he wants to or not.

To me a bo seems more deadly than a sai. Some martial arts expert will have to tell me.

plastroncafe
04-27-2017, 09:54 AM
I don't have turtles.

I do, and they are definitely killers.

Candy Kappa
04-27-2017, 10:29 AM
To me a bo seems more deadly than a sai. Some martial arts expert will have to tell me.

I'm no expert, but I'd say the bo definitively have the edge over the sai despite it being a metal baton used for blocking, trapping and used as a throwing weapon. The bo got range and crushing power to boot.

IndigoErth
04-27-2017, 10:38 AM
Reminds me of when I tried to introduce fish in my turtle tank. It actually went really well, I bought mostly "bargain bin" fish to test it out and three of those fish that sticks on the glass.

Besides a few casualties the turtles seemed to grow tired to chasing the fish, 2 of the 3 suckers got eaten. But the last one grew huge, like he was as big as the turtles. After a couple of months I found the big sucker fish floating upside-down, no visible injuries, just dead. And the night after the turtles had cleaned the whole tank off the fish, there wasn't a single trace that I had fish in it, around 50 fish was just gone.
If they were plecos, sad but prob for the best... Everyone has seen these small little sucker fish, but a lot of the public isn't aware that they can supposedly get up to 2' long and live for quite a while. Better off that they took care of their potential overcrowding problem. (Besides, they also crap like crazy. Not really much of clean up crew...)

Andrew NDB
04-27-2017, 10:42 AM
My red-earred sliders are as vicious as my common snapper or alligator snapper. I can throw big fish or rats in there and they'll tear them to shreds (except the tails of rats... they'll just be floating in there), playing tug-of-war with each other over entrails. But the filter will almost right away get gunked up with scales or fur so I don't like to do that too much.

I threw a goldfish in with my razor back musk turtle tank and it lived for like 3, maybe 4 years in there. One day, just gone. In retrospect I'm fairly sure my cat scooped it out and ate it, not the musk turtles.

ProphetofGanja
04-27-2017, 10:48 AM
I threw a goldfish in with my razor back musk turtle tank and it lived for like 3, maybe 4 years in there. One day, just gone. In retrospect I'm fairly sure my cat scooped it out and ate it, not the musk turtles.

Dammit, Hob! :lol:

Candy Kappa
04-27-2017, 10:52 AM
If they were plecos, sad but prob for the best... Everyone has seen these small little sucker fish, but a lot of the public isn't aware that they can supposedly get up to 2' long and live for quite a while. Better off that they took care of their potential overcrowding problem. (Besides, they also crap like crazy. Not really much of clean up crew...)

2 feet? I was aware that they could grow significantly in size but not that big, but yeah they where probably Common Plecos, I recognize the look when googling them.

Funnily, the petstore employee said hey grew accordingly to the tank, which is a common myth about turtles too, guess I was duped.

pferreira
04-27-2017, 01:27 PM
I firmly believe whatever non-killing iteration they find themselves in should fall under the "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" moniker.Hey, worked for me as a kid. ;)

I personally don't see the Turtles as killers. The Turtles are very self aware beings, killing someone would affect them too much from a psychological point of view. I prefer the Turtles to stop crime as crimefighters. Killing people doesn't make the Turtles any better than the criminals they fight, yeah that's naive of me but I like to be optimistic when it comes to heroes. It allows us to believe in them.

Andrew NDB
04-27-2017, 01:36 PM
Is it Thursday already?

Hey, worked for me as a kid. ;)

I personally don't see the Turtles as killers. The Turtles are very self aware beings, killing someone would affect them too much from a psychological point of view.

They're not humans. They're mutant freaks raised in a sewer to one day kill a man. Their "psychological well-being" was never a consideration.

I prefer the Turtles to stop crime as crimefighters. Killing people doesn't make the Turtles any better than the criminals they fight, yeah that's naive of me but I like to be optimistic when it comes to heroes. It allows us to believe in them.

They're not heroes. Not supposed to be, anyway.

IndigoErth
04-27-2017, 04:57 PM
Next thread: Are your Turtles monsters or people?



They sure willingly take up a heroic role if they feel called to serve a greater good on occasion... Though not in a "superhero" way, and I'd rather that term not applied to them. More that they were able to do something to help a situation and chose to, even if they didn't have to get involved.

They still quietly live as part of that community, as to some extent they still depend on it (food sources, electricity, running water, shelter, material goods, etc) like everyone else. I'd have no issue with them trying to find a purpose for their lives that makes use of their only skill set after the targets they were raised to go after are removed. If their enemies were gone, they're not regular little pet Turtles that would be content to just sit in a confined space for a lifetime and stare at a wall in the lair.

neatoman
04-28-2017, 01:28 PM
Because this is a franchise spanning several decades and countless tones and audiences? Because for every die-hard Mirage purist there are hundreds of people who only know the Turtles from a silly and decidedly non-violent cartoon?

So the question is really just "Do you accept that the turtles are killers?", isn't it? The answer is still the same, they're killers regardless wheter or not someone likes and/or knows about it.

MikeandRaph87
04-28-2017, 01:38 PM
True but the turtles aren't superheroes. They're not out to save the world, they're not out to show humanity how to better themselves. They're all about living their lives unless **** comes their way.

Superman is all about showing us that we can be better, and Spidernan and Batman feel the need to go out every night until every last lowlife is put in jail, which will never happen. The turtles aren't about that.

If a dude breaks into your house with a gun and youre lucky enough to have one, you're not gonna be thinking of morals and shoot him in the knee. Nor are you gonna hit the guy over the head with a vase or something while being extra careful to not straight up kill the guy. That's how i see the turtles and the foot. They endanger themselves and their loved ones so they must be taken out.

And yes, excellent points. Don't give a guy trained in bladed weapons, a pair of bladed weapons.... and then have him throw kicks instead.

I view the Ninja Turtles as superheroes. The thought never crossed my mind they were not until I read post by Mirage purist. They fight super villains and save the day in comics and beyond. Sonic The Hedgehog and the Power Rangers are also super heroes. Yet they aren't the typical DC and Marvel costumed hero who patrol a city but are unique just as the Ninja Turtles are. I suppose its all a matter of opinion.

IndigoErth
04-28-2017, 03:25 PM
I suppose its all a matter of opinion.
*tisk* You know people aren't allowed to have those.

:trazz:

ProphetofGanja
04-28-2017, 03:33 PM
I view the Ninja Turtles as superheroes. The thought never crossed my mind they were not until I read post by Mirage purist. They fight super villains and save the day in comics and beyond. Sonic The Hedgehog and the Power Rangers are also super heroes. Yet they aren't the typical DC and Marvel costumed hero who patrol a city but are unique just as the Ninja Turtles are. I suppose its all a matter of opinion.

Well, technically one could argue that the Turtles are maasked, crime-fighting vigilantes, but superheroes? I don't really think so. Heroes, I can see, but superpowered? Nah. While their origins are definitely the result of unique circumstances, they have no superpowered abilities to speak of, their strength to me never appeared to be outside the range of what a normal human could achieve through a dedicated training regimen, much like the Turtles themselves are seen to engage in pretty regularly in most iterations of the franchise.

Coola Yagami
04-28-2017, 04:05 PM
But they don't patrol the streets every night looking to fight crime and save the day. The closest one is Raph, and that's mostly to look for someone to beat up to let off some steam, but not for the greater good.

The 80's cartoon was kind of a mixed bag. They'd be content just veg out in front of the tv until Shredder does something. The thing is, Shredder always gets away and is a constant threat, and most of the times, HE'S the one causing trouble in the city. If they captured him since day one, they wouldn't be doing much of anything (but then we wouldn't have a show). But then we have other episodes where Splinter says they're slacking and should still go out and beat up other bad guys even though (at the moment) Shredder has been defeated.

The Power Rangers have some sort of oath to stop 'insert villain of the series here' and they can't really stop until that bad guy is eventually defeated once and for all.

Sonic kinda varies from incarnations. Sometimes he just runs around looking for adventure, not necessarily hoping to fight bad guys, and other times he's part of the last hope resistance in a planet already conquered by Robotnik.

I see the Marvel and DC gang as the classic superhero. Always going out looking for crime to stop. Devoting to use their powers for the greater good. Sometimes devoting their entire lives (and ruining their relationships) just to go out and fight some bad guys every day.

The Turtles, depending on the version, were trained to kill Shredder, or just to have self defense if they ever ran into trouble. They never once said 'we are superior martial artists and masters of deadly weapons, we must use these teachings to set forth and rid the world of all evil!"

IndigoErth
04-28-2017, 04:06 PM
For the fun of it, I'd love to take the PD Turtles (minus overpowered nonsense, e.g. no "bullet proof" junk) and somehow put them in a crossover film with superheros from the likes of Marvel or DC. (To the resentment of Marvel/DC fans I'm sure, sorry.) And allow these non-super, non-human/not-quite-human Turtles to otherwise still portray a very human element in their efforts to keep up and play an important role in whatever it is that the movie's heroes are trying to defeat. With all their relatable hard work and effort and exhaustion, while the super people have it easy.

Coola Yagami
04-28-2017, 04:09 PM
Is it Thursday already?



They're not humans. They're mutant freaks raised in a sewer to one day kill a man. Their "psychological well-being" was never a consideration.



They're not heroes. Not supposed to be, anyway.

I believe the greatest thing about the Mirage TMNT was that they were raised to kill a guy, and succeed, and then they ponder what to do with the rest of their lives. Rarely does any other comic go into things like that.

Tetsu Deinonychus
04-29-2017, 08:29 AM
The TMNT I grew up with is the 1987 cartoon and I see the core values carry over outside of the black and white comics.

The FW Turtles still blew up Dregg. There aren't really that many versions of the Turtles that haven't at least shown a willingness to kill, at least once. You're pretty much left with the live-action musical universe (Coming out of our Shells, Gettin' Down in Your Town, Turtle Tunes, and Turtle Christmas). And, I guess the NM Turtles and the Imagi Turtles, who are both variants of the New Line Movie Turtles.


If you use it on another person, then yes. You can and will end up killing someone. You can't just stab a person non-lethally with a sword, no such thing. There may be techniques where to stab/slash a person with best outcome to not kill, but it isn't like the movies when a person drop right away. You can fatally wound someone and they die later due to damaged organs or bleeding out because a artery was cut.

So unless you live in an actual cartoon, swinging a sword to hit another person's flesh is an act of trying to kill them.

That brings up another TMNT issue I have (with almost every version), the Turtles (especially Leo) using their actual deadly weapons in sparring matches. Leo should be using a wooden sword or a bamboo shinai so as not to accidentally kill his brothers during training, yet aside from him having one in Mirage Return to NY, and having a shinai in one FW episode, he's using shown hitting his brothers with his actual swords in sparring matches.

Monte Williams
04-29-2017, 09:07 AM
That brings up another TMNT issue I have (with almost every version), the Turtles (especially Leo) using their actual deadly weapons in sparring matches. Leo should be using a wooden sword or a bamboo shinai so as not to accidentally kill his brothers during training, yet aside from him having one in Mirage Return to NY, and having a shinai in one FW episode, he's using shown hitting his brothers with his actual swords in sparring matches.

Yeah, I was watching a recent Nick episode wherein they were sparring, and Leo swings his swords with full strength, then the screen cuts to some sort of pattern to convey impact, and then it shows his sparring opponent(s) flying across the room.

I mean, it's talking turtles; I don't need realism.

But I couldn't help thinking, "How do you swing a sword at someone hard enough to send them flying across the room... and not cut them?"

Candy Kappa
04-29-2017, 10:07 AM
I guess making a bokken or a shinai model was too expensive XD

Coola Yagami
04-29-2017, 10:37 AM
I remember eps of 2K3 where Shredder would 'slice' the screen and the turtles would just fly back as if they got punched or bitchsmacked. Even if it's a punch, there's no way shredder can punch you with his bladed hand without stabbing you.

A similar 2012 ep had Xever run at someone with his knives, which again had the character 'punched away'.

But you're right. The turtles in any version shouldn't spar with their real weapons.

Monte Williams
04-29-2017, 11:24 AM
I remember eps of 2K3 where Shredder would 'slice' the screen and the turtles would just fly back as if they got punched or bitchsmacked. Even if it's a punch, there's no way shredder can punch you with his bladed hand without stabbing you.

Ha ha, yeah, they still do that kind of thing in the Nick series.

IndigoErth
04-29-2017, 03:08 PM
Agree about the swords. Has bugged me a long while. Esp when 2012 goes no holds barred in the dojo. At the very least they could altered the model and coloration a little and hinted that they're a different set of dull swords for training.

Kendamu
04-29-2017, 07:10 PM
When I would play with the action figures as a kid, my main sources of TMNT media were the original cartoon, video games, movies, and Archie Comics. With that in mind, my Turtles, when playing, only killed their opponents when I would have them act out some huge final showdown.

I guess you could say it's sort of like the Nick series where the Turtles were only out for blood a few times overall, but even then it's a kids' show so they have to be creative with how they make it work.

Nowadays, though, I don't have a one definitive "my Turtles" in my head as much as I used to. So, it honestly depends on what kind of story is being told as to whether or not in makes sense for them to kill their opponents. I guess the same could be said for the Mirage Turtles in general. Though they're more strict about not killing, it's not off the table for the IDW Turtles, either.

DisKosh
05-01-2017, 08:31 AM
"My" turtles do kill when necessary but, as in the Mirage comics, they are a bit traumatized from being child soldiers and eventually tone it down.

When you phrase it like that it seems really f**ked up which it is, let's be honest here.

They're like thirteen in #1 when they're sent to kill Shredder and in Return to New York, they're fifteen when they dispose of his body after decapitating him.

plastroncafe
05-01-2017, 10:09 AM
When you phrase it like that it seems really f**ked up which it is, let's be honest here.

They're like thirteen in #1 when they're sent to kill Shredder and in Return to New York, they're fifteen when they dispose of his body after decapitating him.

A-yup.
I would love some quiet stories that explored this more.

pferreira
05-04-2017, 12:14 PM
Is it Thursday already?It's good in know in your old age you still remember what day of the week it is. :lol:

They're not humans. They're mutant freaks raised in a sewer to one day kill a man. Their "psychological well-being" was never a consideration.

They're not heroes. Not supposed to be, anyway.I never said they were humans, I said they had a moral code, they know right from wrong. They're crimefighters but not heroes and yes from a psychological point of view I still think killing someone would affect them. As I said before I like to be optimistic but I doubt the Turtles would have remained popular all these years if every person, alien or mutant they met they tried to kill in combat.

So the question is really just "Do you accept that the turtles are killers?", isn't it? The answer is still the same, they're killers regardless wheter or not someone likes and/or knows about it.In your opinion. ;)

They sure willingly take up a heroic role if they feel called to serve a greater good on occasion... Though not in a "superhero" way, and I'd rather that term not applied to them. More that they were able to do something to help a situation and chose to, even if they didn't have to get involved.Exactly! That's what I'm trying to say to Andrew.

*tisk* You know people aren't allowed to have those.Wow wow hang on. I always assumed neatoman and Andrew's opinions are always the correct ones because it's theirs. Now you're telling me we can have opinions? :lol:

IndigoErth
05-04-2017, 01:26 PM
Wow wow hang on. I always assumed neatoman and Andrew's opinions are always the correct ones because it's theirs. Now you're telling me we can have opinions? :lol:
Wah? Nooo... that can't be it. lol :trazz:

Some people be like:
http://i.imgur.com/SNqom9g.png

LeotheLateBloomer
05-06-2017, 11:30 PM
At the time, right after the sale, Kevin Eastman was very, very keen on godfathering new TMNT comics. That maxi-series would have been the ground level of it. Basically... a new action-oriented Mirage TMNT Vol. 5, but set way earlier. When the Boom! thing didn't happen he was shepherded to IDW, who was already cooking up their stuff. He's actually old friends with the IDW CEO. He got in the door there and basically settled for that arrangement.

What are the chances of Kevin buying the property off of Viacom? Yeah I know it would cost a ton of money but still.

Andrew NDB
05-06-2017, 11:47 PM
What are the chances of Kevin buying the property off of Viacom? Yeah I know it would cost a ton of money but still.

Chances are 0. He doesn't have money remotely like that, not even anywhere in the same stratosphere.

DestronMirage22
05-06-2017, 11:54 PM
Chances are 0. He doesn't have money remotely like that, not even anywhere in the same stratosphere.

Yeah, and it's not like Viacom would want to sell it in the first place. They obviously intended to milk this franchise for everything they can get out of it.

Antrax
05-07-2017, 08:32 PM
Agree about the swords. Has bugged me a long while. Esp when 2012 goes no holds barred in the dojo. At the very least they could altered the model and coloration a little and hinted that they're a different set of dull swords for training.
I also agree about the swords.
Unfortunately, if they had a scene with wooden swords, I would buy an extra set of Leo and Raph figures with brown weapons.

The turtles I picture are from Mirage and I do think of them as killers.
In the Nicktoon, I was taken aback when Mikey committed Jovaxian genocide, and then they destroyed possibly sentient robot and bugs. If they ate what they killed, I would probably not mind.

BubblyShell22
05-08-2017, 06:39 AM
Yes, the Turtles are killers because that's what they're trained to do. And while I agree that they would try their best not to kill the average mugger or street thug, sometimes killing them is unavoidable when you're fighting for your life and the lives of others. These guys are in a war and so it's inevitable that they will kill. I liked how in the Nick show, they stressed that they were in a war and subtly stated that it had to end with death.

ryukenden
05-11-2017, 12:03 PM
In my personal imagination, my Turtles do kill but only if it is necessary.

LeotheLateBloomer
05-12-2017, 06:14 PM
I've read they have a "no kill policy" in the IDW comics. What's up with that?

Andrew NDB
05-13-2017, 01:03 AM
I've read they have a "no kill policy" in the IDW comics. What's up with that?

It's more of a Nickelodeon policy. If Nick let them, IDW would have them kill.

neatoman
05-13-2017, 03:01 AM
IDW's reprints of Mirage Studios material even have this weird disclaimer where it says they were made decades ago and shouldn't be seen as representing modern values or those of any company currently involved. It's pretty bizarre.

Utrommaniac
05-13-2017, 05:13 AM
For me, it's more a matter of which turtle is more willing to kill if he had to, not if all of them as a whole are killers.

So, in regards to my personal vision on their position as potential killers.

...It's Leonardo. Leonardo is the most willing to kill. He's embraced Splinter's teachings much more than the others and that's part of why Splinter put him in charge.

Raphael follows behind him and believes that it should be done as justice, with a side of following Splinter's teachings. He probably has killed a street thug or two, but might not be aware of it.

Michelangelo is the third most willing, not through any reasoning of his own, but because he thinks his older brothers know best. Though, he also sees reason in Donatello's philosophy and so he has some trouble making up his own mind.

Which puts Donatello dead last in the willingness list. He's Leonardo's opposite, more embracing of the modern world and skeptical of Splinter's philosophies, especially the ones pertaining to revenge killing. His thing with 'Ninja honor' is basically "It's 20xx not 1650, even the Ban (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/meet-jinichi-kawakami-japans-last-ninja-28889515/) don't get up to this sh*t!"
So, in a way, Donatello would be the rebel in my vision, not Raphael.
(But if he had to, say if his life was in danger, yes he would, but he very much wishes he could tell Leonardo where he can stick his acceptance of Revenge Killing philosophies)

When it comes down to the idea of all four turtles as hardened edgelord killers...I like it as much as I like that Utroms are intrinsically 100% pacifistic models of angelic morality who would rather abandon their possessions and run to another planet than get involved in military conflicts.

I don't. Especially since the turtles would be middle schoolers at the youngest and high school sophomores at the oldest, age wise.

CyberCubed
05-13-2017, 05:32 PM
I wonder how the Turtles don't "accidentally" kill. As said Leo and Raph use blades, in a huge fight of a whole bunch of people attacking them at once there's no way their blades don't cut flesh even if they don't intend to. In the cartoons their blades are always blocked by swords or they miss (this is how the 4kids series did the Foot fights), but in any realistic scenario they're not going to be perfectly blocked.

Likewise, even a bo staff or a nunchuck to the face can cause you serious brain damage or knock you out. Do you know how much it hurts to get a huge piece of wood swung in your face at full force by a trained expert? Even if you don't die or get a concussion, that would literally knock out your front teeth and break your nose.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-13-2017, 05:52 PM
I wonder how the Turtles don't "accidentally" kill. As said Leo and Raph use blades, in a huge fight of a whole bunch of people attacking them at once there's no way their blades don't cut flesh even if they don't intend to. In the cartoons their blades are always blocked by swords or they miss (this is how the 4kids series did the Foot fights), but in any realistic scenario they're not going to be perfectly blocked.

Likewise, even a bo staff or a nunchuck to the face can cause you serious brain damage or knock you out. Do you know how much it hurts to get a huge piece of wood swung in your face at full force by a trained expert? Even if you don't die or get a concussion, that would literally knock out your front teeth and break your nose.


Agreed. Though technically Raph's weapons are still blunt even though they are metal.

Utie, I second your analysis with a caveat that I think the first two would be reversed. I think Raph would be more likely to kill mainly because he is so brash and protective of the others he wouldn't really care if he did. He'd see it as one less enemy to come after them later. Leo would probably be more inclined to believe they might change or give up after a good beat-down, and would have Splinter's view that life is precious- even an enemy's. Mikey might kill, but only reluctantly and would feel awful about ut afterward. Donnie being a pacifist would only do it as a last resort or if he felt they were truly a threat to his family and friends.

LeotheLateBloomer
05-13-2017, 10:43 PM
It's more of a Nickelodeon policy. If Nick let them, IDW would have them kill.

But didn't Splinter kill Shredder?

IndigoErth
05-14-2017, 12:26 PM
I think Raph would be more likely to kill mainly because he is so brash and protective of the others he wouldn't really care if he did.
Gotta agree. And a good reason he doesn't use bladed weapons. If he did he may well go overboard and sooner or later eventually pay for it later, emotionally, if an innocent got in the way (or his reaction outweighed a minor baddie's offense) and his 'bull in a china shop' aggression couldn't put the breaks on well/soon enough.

In a way, his primary weapon is as much, if not more, himself and his own fists than his sai; with the sai acting as kind of a defensive aid.

(Not that you probably couldn't put the center rod of a sai through someone's gut if enough force was used.)


If all of the Turtles had access to a button that would destroy the world... I could never see Donnie or Mikey willing to hit it. Leo might, though through a very hard decision if it was down to sacrificing Earth to save the rest of the universe and it if seemed like the right thing. Raph... he's that guy who might just have a "f*** the whole world" kind of day and we're screwed. :tlol:

Cryomancer
05-14-2017, 12:49 PM
Lots of people in this thread need to read some volume 4, regarding Michelangelo.

Allio
05-14-2017, 01:17 PM
But didn't Splinter kill Shredder?

as well as Darius Dunn.

I think so long as it's not the turtles themselves it's fine. Which I'm good with. For them, NInjutsu was taught them as a self defense, not as a killing skill.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-14-2017, 03:32 PM
Lots of people in this thread need to read some volume 4, regarding Michelangelo.

But don't a lot of people consider that arc OOC for him?

Candy Kappa
05-14-2017, 03:53 PM
Is it though? Dude's been through a lot at that point.

DestronMirage22
05-14-2017, 04:06 PM
Is it though? Dude's been through a lot at that point.

Yeah, even calm cool and collected people can go through only so much before they reach they're limit.

Utrommaniac
05-14-2017, 04:11 PM
Utie, I second your analysis with a caveat that I think the first two would be reversed. I think Raph would be more likely to kill mainly because he is so brash and protective of the others he wouldn't really care if he did. He'd see it as one less enemy to come after them later. Leo would probably be more inclined to believe they might change or give up after a good beat-down, and would have Splinter's view that life is precious- even an enemy's. Mikey might kill, but only reluctantly and would feel awful about ut afterward. Donnie being a pacifist would only do it as a last resort or if he felt they were truly a threat to his family and friends.
Yeah, that makes a little more sense in the order in which you were going. It was probably 3am when I made that post, so I didn't have everything lined up right.

as well as Darius Dunn.
Well, technically Jennika killed Dunn, but under Splinter's orders. So take that as you will.

Rooish
05-14-2017, 09:14 PM
Huh. Too me Raph is the biggest killer although Leo is close second. I just think Raph would have the higher kill count. Although his weapons seem to be much less deadly.

I would put Don third, because he can be calculatingly pragmatic. Maybe I'm just thinking of Mirage Don.

Then Mike. I may have totally forgotten something but I can't remember him ever killing a soul in old Mirage. Did he even kill anyone in Vol. 4 or just enjoy watching? (And I still think that was mega OOC). I guess Mirage Turtles are my head canon.

I read the most recent IDW issue and the "no kill" thing is getting really annoying. Every time Mikey and Hob interact Mikey reminds us all of the unfortunate no kill policy. The Turtles should be allowed to kill in self-defense. I feel like they have in the Nick show more than they have in IDW.