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View Full Version : Where did TMNT succeed while Heman failed?


Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-04-2017, 09:59 AM
Following the "real end" of the 1990's in September 2001 (you already know why), 1980's nostalgia began to kick in.

In August 2002, a second animated Heman TV-series began to air, rebooting. It lasted two seasons before cancellation in January 2004.

TMNT, however, managed to successful run an animated TV-series lasting for seven seasons between February 2003 and February 2009. Even if it wasn't as popular as the 1987-1996 animated TV-series, it's easy to say the second TMNT series was a bigger success than Heman.

Today's children enjoy a third generation of TMNT animation. But when it comes to Heman, for them it's probably Whoman?

So how and where did TMNT succeed in reintroducing, while Heman failed.

mrmaczaps
05-04-2017, 10:16 AM
Following the "real end" of the 1990's in September 2001 (you already know why), 1980's nostalgia began to kick in.

In August 2002, a second animated Heman TV-series began to air, rebooting. It lasted two seasons before cancellation in January 2004.

TMNT, however, managed to successful run an animated TV-series lasting for seven seasons between February 2003 and February 2009. Even if it wasn't as popular as the 1987-1996 animated TV-series, it's easy to say the second TMNT series was a bigger success than Heman.

Today's children enjoy a third generation of TMNT animation. But when it comes to Heman, for them it's probably Whoman?

So how and where did TMNT succeed in reintroducing, while Heman failed.

He-man failed due to the company that had the rights basically imploding. They over-reached and soent too much, doing too much all at once.

CyberCubed
05-04-2017, 11:40 AM
It's also due to the fact that back in 2003 4kids was still riding on Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh money which made them filthy rich, so they had enough funds to keep TMNT going for a while. 4kids lost the rights to dub Pokemon in 2006, so that's around the time they started on the road to their eventual bankruptcy.

pferreira
05-04-2017, 12:40 PM
My reasoning behind it is that He-Man failed after a while because it was based off a line of toys. TMNT was based off a comic which has more development put into it.

neatoman
05-04-2017, 01:05 PM
My reasoning behind it is that He-Man failed after a while because it was based off a line of toys. TMNT was based off a comic which has more development put into it.

You would say that, but then Transformers and MLP wouldn't still be thing.

IndigoErth
05-04-2017, 01:12 PM
Would a series about one mutant Turtle on his own in the world have made it this long itself? It might have still been popular at one time, but I doubt it would be as enduring, or endearing. TMNT as a band of brothers and their adoptive father have some themes at the heart of it that will always be relatable to viewers of any decade so it's easier to form a real attachment to them. It's hard for them to become outdated; they can be updated for the times, but the important stuff doesn't age.

I didn't watch too much of He-Man as a kid, so maybe my knowledge/view is limited, but I imagine it might be a bit harder for He-Man to update itself to what's appealing at this period of time without losing its core identity.

Stephen
05-04-2017, 01:23 PM
Thundercats had the same problem. Maybe it's just Cartoon Network.

pferreira
05-04-2017, 01:27 PM
You would say that, but then Transformers and MLP wouldn't still be thing.True to an extent but both of those properties have more toys made to keep those franchise's alive.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-04-2017, 03:18 PM
Would a series about one mutant Turtle on his own in the world have made it this long itself? It might have still been popular at one time, but I doubt it would be as enduring, or endearing. TMNT as a band of brothers and their adoptive father have some themes at the heart of it that will always be relatable to viewers of any decade so it's easier to form a real attachment to them. It's hard for them to become outdated; they can be updated for the times, but the important stuff doesn't age.

I didn't watch too much of He-Man as a kid, so maybe my knowledge/view is limited, but I imagine it might be a bit harder for He-Man to update itself to what's appealing at this period of time without losing its core identity.

The real name is "Heman and the Masters of the Universe" so Heman, Manatarms, Orko and Sorceress together work like a band. But I don't know if the Heman peak (not even sure when it occurred) was bigger than the TMNT-peak around 1989-1990.

Candy Kappa
05-04-2017, 03:31 PM
I rember that the toys was really scarce with the Mike Young MOTU show, like only 1 store had them, and it was a bits'n bobs type store and not a toy store. Same with the Biker Mice From Mars revival, the toys was a pain to find. And I don't think the 2011 ThunderCats even came here beyond our LCS that mainly took them in cause the owner was a fan and knew I wanted them.

It's a bit sad cause the 200x MOTU figures looked great, sculpted by FourHorsemen, a toy group that should be well known by TMNT collectors for sculpting one of the best Turtles figures out there. I only got to buy one figure for my youngest little brother, a ice armor Skeletor, and he adored that figure. But the next time I went to that store to get more figures, they where gone.

Andrew NDB
05-04-2017, 03:33 PM
As I recall... going back to the logic of a 7, 8, 9 year-old kid around other 7, 8 , 9 year-old kids, it seemed like at a certain point, the overall consensus was that liking He-Man meant you were "gay" or far worse yet, a "gaylord." Nobody wanted to be known as a lord of the gays, so that was that (seriously, that's about how I remember the quiet dying of He-Man's popularity). Ninja Turtles somehow avoided that stigma with other boys.

plastroncafe
05-04-2017, 03:40 PM
I dunno man, Lord of the Gays sounds like a pretty epic job title.

sdp
05-04-2017, 07:16 PM
It's not one reason but all of the reasons posted here basically and a few more:

-He-Man is more 80s than the turtles and a much harder franchise to make "cool" again.

-It aired on Cartoon Network as opposed to SatAM over the air (2k3 also failed on CN)

-4Kids had a lot of money thanks to Pokemon/anime so they could spend money on 2k3 even if it didn't make as much money.

-4Kids needed shows to fill up their kids programming block they had (FoxBox/4KidsTV) so 2k3 was an easily renewable show

-They messed up the toys by releasing figures no one wanted

ProactiveMan
05-05-2017, 12:40 AM
The original He-Man show only lasted three years, and New Adventures didn't really take off, so the 200X didn't have the same footing as TMNT. There was also a longer gap between He-Man shows.

Andrew NDB
05-05-2017, 12:50 AM
As a little kid...

With something like TMNT, you can fall back behind that they're not even human. They're just Turtles. With weapons.

With something like Transformers, it's robots that shapeshift into cars (cool!) and gigantaurs with weapons (cool!).

With He-Man, it's a muscular dude with no shirt with a pretty weird haircut. That's hard to reconcile. If you're in the 80s/early 90s. I don't feel like it ever really recovered or repurposed itself adequately after that to gain or regain an audience. It's still this odd thing that some people swear by, but most others are like, "Eh, that's pretty weird." Stuff like "Son of Zorn" plays with it by poking fun at it, but I'm not sure there's much to reboot in it unless it goes the aforementioned 21 Jump Street-meets-Thor 1 route.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-05-2017, 02:10 AM
The original He-Man show only lasted three years, and New Adventures didn't really take off, so the 200X didn't have the same footing as TMNT. There was also a longer gap between He-Man shows.

According to Wikipedia, the original Heman series aired 130 episodes between 1983 and 1985 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-Man_and_the_Masters_of_the_Universe while Shera aired 193 episodes from 1985 to 1987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-Ra:_Princess_of_Power so that's four years of the Masters of the Universe franchise. The New Adventures of He-Man aired 65 episodes in 1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Adventures_of_He-Man

cammy85
05-05-2017, 09:26 AM
It was normal for most shows to go the standard 65 episodes. He-man had two 65 episode seasons which was rare at the time. She-ra's second season only lasted 28 episodes, but still. Real Ghostbusters and TMNT went for a lot longer. Maybe rules were different in 1983-1985 and cartoons couldn't get away with it back then?

Spike Spiegel
05-05-2017, 10:41 AM
I was in the demographic at the time and watched a couple of episodes. I remember that it only aired late on Saturday nights on CN. Maybe if it had more exposure (more ads? a slot on Toonami perhaps?) it might have caught on more.

I don't recall any commercials or promos for it, and the only time I saw a He-Man '02 toy was in the seasonal bargain bin at my area ALDI store.

During my college years, I bought the DVD box set of the series, and I think it's rather impressive, especially when compared to the original. Very good animation and solid character arcs. Too bad they never got to introduce She-Ra.

Comparing TMNT to He-Man or Thundercats, I feel that TMNT never exactly went away, given its larger cultural impact. The movies and original cartoon were at least known and understood peripherally by the kids in my age group, who would have been 9-12ish years of age when 2k3 premiered. I saw Thundercats reruns on Toonami, but still saw it as kind of dated. Also, the 2002 series was my first exposure to He-Man.

ProactiveMan
05-06-2017, 06:49 AM
According to Wikipedia, the original Heman series aired 130 episodes between 1983 and 1985 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He-Man_and_the_Masters_of_the_Universe while Shera aired 193 episodes from 1985 to 1987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She-Ra:_Princess_of_Power so that's four years of the Masters of the Universe franchise. The New Adventures of He-Man aired 65 episodes in 1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Adventures_of_He-Man

Yeah I guess if you ad She-Ra to the run, it's more than 3 years. It was mostly a new cast of characters though, so it's not really analogous to TMNT - it would be more like if Turtles ended in 1990 and they made a Punk Frogs spinoff set in China.

Part of He-Man's problem was the mandate from either Mattel or Filmation that there was to be no character development or story arks. Every episode had to start back at square one. That gets pretty stale after a while.

ABrown
05-07-2017, 04:52 PM
The toy factor absolutely had to be a major reason that the 2002 He-Man didn't have the success that the 4Kids TMNT did. He-Man's toys were unbearably hard to find. The only ones that I ever saw in stores were He-Man, Skeletor, and Orko. All of the other ones that I have, I found online. I think I've got about fourteen toys from the series, and I only ever found three of them in stores. Whereas with the 4Kids TMNT series, I'm pretty sure I bought 100% of them in stores.

ProactiveMan
05-07-2017, 05:42 PM
The toys weren't that hard to find here. Some waves were harder than others, and the Snakeman repaints hung around like a bad smell, so some retailers were slow to stock after that.

Antrax
05-07-2017, 07:54 PM
I saw a commercial of the toys once and went toy hunting immediately. I could only find Variants of He-Man and Skeletor and also had to buy them online.

pferreira
05-11-2017, 10:42 AM
As I recall... going back to the logic of a 7, 8, 9 year-old kid around other 7, 8 , 9 year-old kids, it seemed like at a certain point, the overall consensus was that liking He-Man meant you were "gay" or far worse yet, a "gaylord." Nobody wanted to be known as a lord of the gays, so that was that (seriously, that's about how I remember the quiet dying of He-Man's popularity). Ninja Turtles somehow avoided that stigma with other boys.Only snobbish geek adults say He-Man is gay. I really don't know where that came from. I suppose it's these types of people condemning aspects of their childhood they don't find cool any more.

Andrew NDB
05-11-2017, 10:44 AM
Only snobbish geek adults say He-Man is gay.

Nope. Pretty much every kid on the playground would say that when I was like 12.

pferreira
05-11-2017, 11:08 AM
Nope. Pretty much ever kid on the playground would say that when I was like 12.When kids are 12 they're generally not thinking about He-Man because they're not kids any more, they're teens.

ProphetofGanja
05-11-2017, 11:32 AM
When kids are 12 they're generally not thinking about He-Man because they're not kids any more, they're teens.

A 12 year old by definition, is not a teen

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-17-2017, 06:05 AM
A 12 year old by definition, is not a teen

Not teenager, but youth.

pferreira
05-18-2017, 09:19 AM
Not teenager, but youth.Close though since 13 is the beginning of being a teen.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
05-18-2017, 12:12 PM
By the age of 11, I began feeling ashamed for watching cartoons.

pferreira
05-18-2017, 12:32 PM
By the age of 11, I began feeling ashamed for watching cartoons.You go through that a bit but guess what? By the time you reach your 30s you begin to appreciate your childhood more.

neatoman
05-18-2017, 12:58 PM
You go through that a bit but guess what? By the time you reach your 30s you begin to appreciate your childhood more.

Christ, you're in your 30's? Really?

pferreira
05-18-2017, 01:50 PM
Christ, you're in your 30's? Really?Yeah and? What's it like being a 14 year old troll? :lol:

neatoman
05-18-2017, 02:21 PM
Yeah and? What's it like being a 14 year old troll? :lol:

I wouldn't exactly use a 14 year old's behaviour as an insult if I were you. All you do here is piss and moan like a spastic 5 year old once a week because people dare to make fun of a cheap toy commercial meant to trick children.

Oh, and by the way, I post here several times a week, take a guess how many people are frequently bothered by me taking jabs at the Fred Wolf cartoon or calling it a cheap toy commercial? It's you, it's you and you alone. Nobody else thinks it's offensive of me to say any of this, it's just you.

pferreira
05-18-2017, 03:24 PM
I wouldn't exactly use a 14 year old's behaviour as an insult if I were you. All you do here is piss and moan like a spastic 5 year old once a week because people dare to make fun of a cheap toy commercial meant to trick children.Spoken like a true troll. ;)

Oh, and by the way, I post here several times a week, take a guess how many people are frequently bothered by me taking jabs at the Fred Wolf cartoon or calling it a cheap toy commercial? It's you, it's you and you alone. Nobody else thinks it's offensive of me to say any of this, it's just you.Actually people here have called you out on your trolling before. Not sure why you take part in FW threads if only to troll with "what's the point guys!" I mean this is coming from a fan of the IDW comic where the Turtles are reincarnated! Yeah of course the Fred Wolf show is nothing but a 'cheap toy commercial' which I'd be saying if the IDW comic wasn't a more bastardization of the franchise. But guess what? I'm not so high and mighty that I have anything against the IDW comic. Not a fan of it so I don't post hate messages on the threads, simples. I'll leave you with this:

http://discourse-cdn.global.ssl.fastly.net/boingboing/uploads/default/original/3X/3/8/38edd199c69bd7058b91e76fb68e1e0f2aa5ac59.gif

neatoman
05-18-2017, 03:35 PM
Spoken like a true troll. ;)

Actually people here have called you out on your trolling before. Not sure why you take part in FW threads if only to troll with "what's the point guys!" I mean this is coming from a fan of the IDW comic where the Turtles are reincarnated! Yeah of course the Fred Wolf show is nothing but a 'cheap toy commercial' which I'd be saying if the IDW comic wasn't a more bastardization of the franchise. But guess what? I'm not so high and mighty that I have anything against the IDW comic. Not a fan of it so I don't post hate messages on the threads, simples. I'll leave you with this:

http://discourse-cdn.global.ssl.fastly.net/boingboing/uploads/default/original/3X/3/8/38edd199c69bd7058b91e76fb68e1e0f2aa5ac59.gif

Hate? It's a show meant for 5 year olds and my comments don't go beyond questioning quality or making jabs, you're one who keeps taking offense at it. You're being melodramatic over nothing.

Just consider this. You're 30+ year old man who use 14 year old as an insult for people who question the quality of a cheap show meant for 5 year olds, you're old enough to have teenage kids and you get mad when someone makes fun of something you watched when you were still learning how to read. You realise how sad and pathetic that is, right?

GoldMutant
05-18-2017, 03:38 PM
I'm going to just drown this out with He-Man's rendition of "What's Going On?," you guys do you. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32FB-gYr49Y

oldmanwinters
05-18-2017, 05:23 PM
Everytime I see this thread title, I read it as "Herman."

neatoman
05-19-2017, 01:39 AM
Everytime I see this thread title, I read it as "Herman."

Well, Herman does lug around an upside down garbage container full of guns, he doesn't have the stealth advantage.

sdp
05-19-2017, 11:21 PM
He-Man is gay.

ProphetofGanja
05-20-2017, 06:21 AM
Everytime I see this thread title, I read it as "Herman."

Yeah. Proper punctuation, spelling, and grammar are crucial. Lately some of the writing on the Drome has gotten pretty bad.

Coola Yagami
05-20-2017, 10:52 PM
It was due to the toys not selling, which is why I hate toy driven shows. No matter how awesome the show might be, if the toys don't sell, pull the plug. Had the TMNT toys bombed, the Nick show wouldn't have lasted past season 2.

He-Man did indeed have some sort of plans for Hordak returning in the third season. But again, the toys. And the last ones were getting really lazy and were mostly repaints and variants.

pferreira
05-25-2017, 09:33 AM
He-Man is gay.How do you know and if so why should that matter?

Hate? It's a show meant for 5 year olds and my comments don't go beyond questioning quality or making jabs, you're one who keeps taking offense at it. You're being melodramatic over nothing.You haven't made one fair criticism of the show. You're quick to attack others for making posts when you don't contribute anything of use apart from a pointless thread of why David Wise copied Superman. When you say that the FW series is for five year olds not only do you disrespect five year olds but any fan on this forum that grew up watching the show and is still a fan of it. I also don't take harassment by three members of this forum as being 'melodramatic'.

you get mad when someone makes fun of something you watched when you were still learning how to read. You realise how sad and pathetic that is, right?You know what's sad and pathetic? Not allowing people to have a different opinion to yourself. Sure when you grow up maybe you'll learn but while on this board you can't not expect people to take offence with things you say especially when you attack others. THAT is pathetic. Of course what's also pathetic is hogging the Ask The Editor page and sucking up to Bobby Curnow then accusing me for liking a show you don't like.

neatoman
05-25-2017, 10:02 AM
You haven't made one fair criticism of the show.

It's full of animation errors, plotholes, continuity errors and blatant commercialism. How is that not fair to say? It's true.


When you say that the FW series is for five year olds not only do you disrespect five year olds but any fan on this forum that grew up watching the show and is still a fan of it.

This is hilarious. Stating who the target audience was is an insult towards the target audience and those being nostalgic for it from when they were the target audience? Seriously?

I also don't take harassment by three members of this forum as being 'melodramatic'.

You're not being harrassed, you just can't tell the difference between jokes and insults.


You know what's sad and pathetic? Not allowing people to have a different opinion to yourself. Sure when you grow up maybe you'll learn but while on this board you can't not expect people to take offence with things you say especially when you attack others.
Again, you are not being attacked, you just have a thin skin and you go for bottom of the barrel retorts.

Of course what's also pathetic is hogging the Ask The Editor page and sucking up to Bobby Curnow then accusing me for liking a show you don't like.

... What? How am I hogging it up or sucking up to him? I'm just asking questions about recent issues and pointing out if I liked something, that's what that thread is for and what everyone else uses it for.

pferreira
05-25-2017, 10:25 AM
It's full of animation errors, plotholes, continuity errors and blatant commercialism. How is that not fair to say? It's true.But you could say the same thing about the your precious IDW series?

This is hilarious. Stating who the target audience was is an insult towards the target audience and those being nostalgic for it from when they were the target audience? Seriously?Yeah and many people here feel you've stepped out of line. All I've seen is rudeness from you towards other users here talking about something they like, week in week out.

Again, you are not being attacked, you just have a thin skin and you go for bottom of the barrel retorts.Maybe they do things differently in Sweden but in other parts of the world that is called harassment.

How am I hogging it up or sucking up to him? I'm just asking questions about recent issues and pointing out if I liked something, that's what that thread is for and what everyone else uses it for.Oh right so it's ok for you to go on the IDW forum and gush about the comic but people who are fans of the FW series aren't allowed to do the same thing on the General Forum because you don't like the show? Talk about being a hypocrite. :roll:

neatoman
05-25-2017, 10:38 AM
But you could say the same thing about the your precious IDW series?

Have you read it? Please point out the plotholes and continuity errors to me.


Yeah and many people here feel you've stepped out of line. All I've seen is rudeness from you towards other users here talking about something they like, week in week out.

Good day, Axe Handle. Now would you mind actually answering the question, how is it an insult to point out who the target audience were?


Maybe they do things differently in Sweden but in other parts of the world that is called harassment.

The source of the conflict is usually you, you get mad at a joke or take criticism of a cartoon as a personal insult. It's not harrassment.


Oh right so it's ok for you to go on the IDW forum and gush about the comic but people who are fans of the FW series aren't allowed to do the same thing on the General Forum because you don't like the show? Talk about being a hypocrite. :roll:

They are allowed to, you just can't stand criticism of it for some petty reason. Stop taking an old cartoon so seriously, it's not worth getting mad over.

pferreira
05-25-2017, 02:36 PM
Have you read it? Please point out the plotholes and continuity errors to me.No I haven' t read it. I'll leave it to someone else to point out all the plotholes because I'm sure there are. I know it's your precious comic but sorry to say this but it isn't any better than any other iteration of the TMNT franchise. Live with it.

Good day, Axe Handle. Now would you mind actually answering the question, how is it an insult to point out who the target audience were?Probably because anyone who isn't a moron would know the show wasn't meant to be seen by five year olds. Instead you diss anyone who still likes the show. Well done, you're going to continue to make friends here as you have already. :roll:

The source of the conflict is usually you, you get mad at a joke or take criticism of a cartoon as a personal insult. It's not harrassment.Don't you DARE try to turn this on me. You're the one causing trouble, you're the one trolling. Nobody wants you to know you, nobody cares about trolls so just go away will you?

They are allowed to, you just can't stand criticism of it for some petty reason. Stop taking an old cartoon so seriously, it's not worth getting mad over.People have every right to want me to report you. I'll stop getting mad when you stop acting like a total troll.

neatoman
05-25-2017, 03:32 PM
No I haven' t read it. I'll leave it to someone else to point out all the plotholes because I'm sure there are. I know it's your precious comic but sorry to say this but it isn't any better than any other iteration of the TMNT franchise. Live with it.

Uh-huh, so what you're saying is that if I watch a show and end up not liking it, even pointing out why I don't like it, I should just accept that a comic I really liked isn't better than it. Even though you literally have nothing to criticise about the comic, because you haven't bothered to check it out and you even refuse to dig up someone else's criticisms of it.

You do realise how insane that sounds, right?

Netkeeper
05-25-2017, 03:41 PM
I love how he thinks his personal opinion dictates objective quality

Also neatoman doesn't attack me and I like the show, what now huh? checkmate atheists

GoldMutant
05-25-2017, 03:45 PM
..... No comment on the two/three way.
__________________________

It's definitely the toylines and possibly other media that keeps He-Man down though. That really sucks as I liked the 2000 cartoon and the original is still a classic.

ProphetofGanja
05-25-2017, 04:30 PM
No I haven' t read it. I'll leave it to someone else to point out all the plotholes because I'm sure there are. I know it's your precious comic but sorry to say this but it isn't any better than any other iteration of the TMNT franchise. Live with it.

I mean, I think we could come up with a set of objective criteria to compare the two and I know that IDW would come out on top. I mean, the OT was fine back in the day but I could never go back and watch it now and enjoy it in the same way, because I'm an adult and my sensibilities and understanding of the world have developed since then

Probably because anyone who isn't a moron would know the show wasn't meant to be seen by five year olds. Instead you diss anyone who still likes the show. Well done, you're going to continue to make friends here as you have already. :roll:


The show was most definitely geared towards young children. There is a very slight amount of wiggle room in what we define as "young children"

pferreira
05-25-2017, 05:57 PM
Uh-huh, so what you're saying is that if I watch a show and end up not liking it, even pointing out why I don't like it, I should just accept that a comic I really liked isn't better than it. Even though you literally have nothing to criticise about the comic, because you haven't bothered to check it out and you even refuse to dig up someone else's criticisms of it.

You do realise how insane that sounds, right?Nope, you sound insane. I don't give a monkeys whether you like the Fred Wolf cartoon, you have no right to troll other posts where people want to talk about something you don't like 'because as we all know the Fred Wolf series is crap right?" I mean this forum you're posting on was built on that show you hate so much.

First: get a reality check

Second: start being nicer towards each other. Don't criticise what other people like as inferior because technically speaking you love a show where the lead characters are reincarnated samurai!

http://media.tenor.co/images/0f78af841f453545a036b6cceb3620cc/tenor.gif

I love how he thinks his personal opinion dictates objective qualityI completely agree. Neatoman is a complete troll.

Also neatoman doesn't attack me and I like the show, what now huh? checkmate atheistsYou should friend him, you can start trolling together eh because that's just what this board needs right?

The show was most definitely geared towards young children. There is a very slight amount of wiggle room in what we define as "young children"Five year olds yes. Or was that supposed to be older? Oh who cares it's a neatoman observation and those are crap. ;)

Netkeeper
05-25-2017, 06:51 PM
I completely agree. Neatoman is a complete troll.
I was talking about you. Or are you trying to say I got the wrong pronoun

You should friend him, you can start trolling together eh because that's just what this board needs right?
If he attacked people that liked the show, as you claim, he wouldn't friend me :(:(:(:(:(