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View Full Version : "Trans girl" sweeps track meet, brags about it


Andrew NDB
06-07-2017, 02:09 PM
https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/andraya-yearwood-connecticut-meet/

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/DBQ1SLGUMAAjexG-1-575x383.jpg

What do you think? Is the school brave/courageous for letting her compete with the girls?

mrmaczaps
06-07-2017, 02:38 PM
https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/andraya-yearwood-connecticut-meet/

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/DBQ1SLGUMAAjexG-1-575x383.jpg

What do you think? Is the school brave/courageous for letting her compete with the girls?

Except thats a dude... And no, as it gives him an advantage over the women who are likely already busting their butts to be the best in their sport. He can call himself a girl but no one else should have to play into his delusion. He is not a girl despite how he feels.

Cure
06-07-2017, 02:38 PM
It would be fine if he had taken steps to transition, but the article states he hasn't, so I don't think it's cool. Just saying you identify as female shouldn't be enough.

"I identify as POTUS, take me to Area 51."

IndigoErth
06-07-2017, 02:38 PM
Not much opinion really as it's just one random high school, not the Olympics, and what they do is on them. (If teammates take issue, then let them address that with the school.) If it were anything professional, then maybe she should 'transition' first, else possibly be regarded as the equivalent of a girl taking steroids. (Though that opens uncomfortable discussion regarding other girls' assumed inability to compete as well...)

Given the source site and tone, however, prob not worth much more comment.

sdp
06-07-2017, 02:42 PM
I've read more than a few cases like these before and I cannot believe how many people will actually defend a transsexual girl compete in a girls event. This isn't always the case however, sometimes it's the schools themselves that force them to go to the category they don't want, so it's a case by case basis, I didn't read this exact case.

Sports are divided by gender because men have an advantage over women, that simple. I actually think if women wanted to compete with men it should be fine since they're the ones at a disadvantage.

Now by that logic a transsexual man should be able to compete with men since its technically a girl and not a man so there is no advantage. But then you have to take into account the hormone treatment they take which yes they're steroids. And that again makes it so it can't happen. I've seen tons of people defending it with stuff like "even if they take steroids they still have the same ____ than most men so they don't really have an advantage. But it is, does that mean a man without enough ___ should be allowed to take steroids then? I've also seen people say that "genetic freaks" who are born with perfect bodies for sports should be banned if trans people are banned since it's not fair that they were born that way.


Ridiculous all around, I'm sorry but if you want to go through hormone treatment which is totally cool if that's what anyone wants but you have to be aware that you may not be allowed to compete in sports professionally since there could be an unfair advantage. Now if there's really enough trans players out there then maybe some type of trans/mixed league or category could be made but I somehow doubt that'll happen because of costs and not enough demand.

TurtleWA
06-07-2017, 02:55 PM
A few months ago I heard of a similar story.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship
17-Year-Old Transgender Boy Wins Texas Girls' Wrestling Championship
Seems like it's becoming the new norm. No opinion on it so far for me.

IndigoErth
06-07-2017, 03:26 PM
Kind of hate these subjects because the general consensus sort of comes down to what? Not just transgender prejudice, but "Girls/women are inferior and he's taking advantage."

Ouch. Maybe many guys well never get it, but many/most women don't want that rubbed in our faces. And partly why it's a touchy subject I think best left to be determined by everyone else directly involved, not the public at large. Let that school deal with it and decide... and most of all, the team. Just like the debate over our bathrooms... let women decide what we're okay with.




At the same time, there is the irony of the article (yesterday?) of the young girl whose soccer team was disqualified because... of her hair cut. And someone thinking she looked like a boy. :roll:

Candy Kappa
06-07-2017, 03:30 PM
If it's okay by the school, I don't see why it's a problem.

While not transitioning can be eye raising for outsiders since not all trans people do hormone therapy or surgery. I'd imagine the school have done a extensive investigation by putting er her under the lense and scrutinized every aspect of her life.

Autbot_Benz
06-07-2017, 03:44 PM
Don't post anything that jackass Milo posts he is the worst kind of filth.

ToTheNines
06-07-2017, 04:39 PM
There are bigger issues in the world today than high school sports. Next.

FredWolfLeonardo
06-07-2017, 05:43 PM
He's still a male no matter what.

I blame today's attitude towards seeing everything, gender, culture, tradition and religion as a social construct with no meaning.

Papenbrook
06-07-2017, 06:55 PM
This thread needs to be locked.

Autbot_Benz
06-07-2017, 07:51 PM
This thread needs to be locked.

go back to your safespace snowflake the adults are talking

Refractive Reflections
06-07-2017, 08:16 PM
...Guess it took a real man to show women how to win athletically. ;):lol:

JmcX-ON_imA

...So we have transgender, transracial (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4425214/White-Rachel-Dolezal-tells-South-Africa-trans-black.html), and transabled (http://www.unilad.co.uk/health/transabled-people-are-cutting-off-their-limbs-to-become-disabled/), what's next... trans-species (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4468954/Man-spends-25k-plastic-surgery-elf.html)? :lol:
dpYytrxLIoA

Autbot_Benz
06-07-2017, 08:26 PM
really the best video you could find is by that dumbass Paul Joseph Watson that guy is such a lunatic:roll: just like his infowars buddy Alex Jones :lol:

Refractive Reflections
06-07-2017, 08:32 PM
really the best video you could find is by that dumbass Paul Joseph Watson that guy is such a lunatic:roll: just like his infowars buddy Alex Jones :lol:

Well, at least he uses sources in the video on the topic, unlike yourself who just throws insults to any thread on people who you disagree with.

sdp
06-07-2017, 09:01 PM
The problem today is in trying to show the stupidity of the left is you end up with only finding the stupidity of the right and vice-versa.

mrmaczaps
06-07-2017, 09:20 PM
...Guess it took a real man to show women how to win athletically. ;):lol:

JmcX-ON_imA

...So we have transgender, transracial (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4425214/White-Rachel-Dolezal-tells-South-Africa-trans-black.html), and transabled (http://www.unilad.co.uk/health/transabled-people-are-cutting-off-their-limbs-to-become-disabled/), what's next... trans-species (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4468954/Man-spends-25k-plastic-surgery-elf.html)? :lol:
dpYytrxLIoA

Trans-species is already a thing... you haven't seen the people who want to be their pets? One dude I read about wants to be a dog so he can take a leak in the park.... the delusions of the left are staggering....

IndigoErth
06-07-2017, 10:46 PM
...Guess it took a real man to show women how to win athletically. ;):lol:
Because that comment was totally necessary.

http://i.imgur.com/OxKE3iz.jpg?1



Someone hand me a katana and hold my invisible earrings... :tgrumble:


just throws insults to any thread
*cough*

Papenbrook
06-07-2017, 10:55 PM
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/061/664/1275937249093s.jpg

FredWolfLeonardo
06-07-2017, 11:04 PM
For a second I thought Cubed made his grant debut in this thread.

AT-Man
06-08-2017, 01:29 AM
The problem today is in trying to show the stupidity of the left is you end up with only finding the stupidity of the right and vice-versa.

This ain't a problem, it's what should be happening.

BubblyShell22
06-08-2017, 07:11 PM
No, this isn't right and it's very unfair for all of the girls out there who have been on the team for a long time. This sort of thing is unacceptable and the school should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen.

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2017, 10:10 PM
Because that comment was totally necessary.

http://i.imgur.com/OxKE3iz.jpg?1



Someone hand me a katana and hold my invisible earrings... :tgrumble:
Well, it's true... :lol: In a majority of sports or athletic events (not all but most), men do perform better than women because of the physiological differences. I don't know why your feelings are getting so upset over facts.

...But if someone's foolish enough to superficially believe that better athletic performance, somehow directly equates to making them a "better" person, then that's their problem.

*cough*
You're taking the phrase out of context.
Well, at least he uses sources in the video on the topic, unlike yourself who just throws insults to any thread on people who you disagree with.
I'm joking (or in your opinion "insulting") about the topic at hand, and mentioning that at least sources are being brought into the discussion in the video, instead of just casually insulting individual members who are discussing the topic from the beginning.

plastroncafe
06-14-2017, 10:47 PM
The average man maybe stronger than the average woman now, but that was not always the case. And it might not be the case in the future.

Our hunter-gatherer ancestors had very little sexual dimorphism.

Also important to bring up, how women have not been allowed to participate in various sporting events. And how when women were allowed to participate, often it was with different rules so no direct comparisons between the genders could be made.

Heck less than a hundred years ago it was believed a woman was incapable of running a marathon. That scientifically our bodies were incapable of doing so.

And I'll be honest, the only event that I could conceive of a trans woman requiring SRS in order to complete in Wells be the uneven bars, for obvious reasons.

Refractive Reflections
06-14-2017, 11:26 PM
The average man maybe stronger than the average woman now, but that was not always the case. And it might not be the case in the future.

Our hunter-gatherer ancestors had very little sexual dimorphism.

Considering the effect of testosterone and other androgen hormones on athletic performance, in concentrations found in significantly higher concentrations in men than women, I would have to disagree on that.

http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/effects-on-body
https://www.hgha.com/blog/testosterone/functions-of-testosterone/


Also important to bring up, how women have not been allowed to participate in various sporting events. And how when women were allowed to participate, often it was with different rules so no direct comparisons between the genders could be made.

Heck less than a hundred years ago it was believed a woman was incapable of running a marathon. That scientifically our bodies were incapable of doing so.

And I'll be honest, the only event that I could conceive of a trans woman requiring SRS in order to complete in Wells be the uneven bars, for obvious reasons.

I'm certainly not questioning whether a woman wants to participate in any particular sport, but in my opinion, it's certainly not fair for women, when you have an individual who has a physiological advantage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_physiology#Skeleton_and_m uscular_system) with a stronger developed bone structure (not just bone mass, but the angle of the hips for example, making a difference in gait and load baring activities), and quicker muscle mass gains and recovery, beyond the normal physiological bell-curve women have, then have that individual athletically compete with women.

IndigoErth
06-15-2017, 10:55 AM
Well, it's true... :lol: In a majority of sports or athletic events (not all but most), men do perform better than women because of the physiological differences. I don't know why your feelings are getting so upset over facts.

Clearly you either skipped or disregarded something I had previously said.

Maybe many guys well never get it, but many/most women don't want that rubbed in our faces.
If someone's ego is so fragile that they feel the need to point out 'facts' like no one hasn't already heard it a billion times before, and aren't man enough to think "Hm, maybe it's kind of a jerk move to do that," then maybe they just aught to eff off and crawl into their safe space where they will no longer feel the need to manexplain it to people in order to feel better about themselves.



Jokes and insults have gotten pretty blurry in this culture in this day and age... It's so convenient for people to purposely be an ass and then claim it's "just a joke" out of convenience.

Refractive Reflections
06-15-2017, 06:36 PM
Clearly you either skipped or disregarded something I had previously said.


If someone's ego is so fragile that they feel the need to point out 'facts' like no one hasn't already heard it a billion times before, and aren't man enough to think "Hm, maybe it's kind of a jerk move to do that," then maybe they just aught to eff off and crawl into their safe space where they will no longer feel the need to manexplain it to people in order to feel better about themselves.



Jokes and insults have gotten pretty blurry in this culture in this day and age... It's so convenient for people to purposely be an ass and then claim it's "just a joke" out of convenience.

...And clearly, you didn't notice that's why I put wink and lol faces on the post (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1688552&postcount=19) to imply light-hearted humor. What other faces should I have put on there to avoid you being triggered then? Since you are already including profanity in your posts here.

If you consider a random internet person having a few posts about it, in an obscure forum site as "rubbing it your face" compared to the numerous other facets of life (outside of this site) that preoccupy a person in a 24 hour day, then it's certainly saying more about your sensitivities on the issue. Each person has a different composite of strengths and weaknesses in their lives that fluctuate (not just physical strength, but talents, mental abilities, etc.), and people deal with it.

Besides, as much as you may think in many people knowing about the physiological differences between men and women in your posts, you would be surprised how some still find it baffling that women aren't generally, athletically catching up to men:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/we-thought-female-athletes-were-catching-up-to-men-but-theyre-not/260927/
https://howwegettonext.com/is-gender-segregation-in-sports-necessary-dc188150f242
http://feministing.com/2011/04/25/women-in-sport-why-cant-women-compete-against-men/
http://www.dailywire.com/news/6072/australias-national-womens-soccer-team-lose-7-0-amanda-prestigiacomo

Candy Kappa
06-16-2017, 04:12 AM
To be fair, adding winks faces or lol faces does not translate well into light-hearted humor.

And it's not just some random dude on a obscure forum that's rubbing it in, it's a overwhelming majority of dudebros that likes to continually remark and point out how "inferior" women are and all that "back to the kitchen" jazz. It's not you, but you may unknowingly be the drop that makes the glass flow over. So maybe less "triggering" and more annoyance.

plastroncafe
06-16-2017, 09:00 AM
I think there's more to athletic performance than just testosterone. Male athletes get more financial support than female athletes do. More money means more time to train means higher performance rates.

I'm not saying there aren't physiological differences between a body shaped by more estrogen then a body shaped by more testosterone, I'm saying we have hundreds of years of suppression to overcome.

Culture is one hell of a drug.
And the more egalitarian society, the more decreased human sexual dimorphism tends to be.

Also there are some sports right now that women excel at over men. Ultra marathons are an event that women overwhelmingly excel at. And then there's the uneven bars.

sdp
06-16-2017, 05:48 PM
So now women are being oppressed by men who identify as women in sports.

ToTheNines
06-16-2017, 08:32 PM
So now women are being oppressed by men who identify as women in sports.

Most of your anti-feminists shtick is tired and lame, but this was pretty good.

plastroncafe
06-16-2017, 10:45 PM
They're not men if they identify as women.
And I know you're being purposely obtuse by suggesting that they are.

Genetics is not quite as cut-and-dry as a high school level biology class will lead you to believe. it's a great deal more complicated then a Punnett square or Gregor Mendel's pea plants.

MsMarvelDuckie
06-16-2017, 11:36 PM
Aw c'mon. Can't we just give peas a chance? :trazz:

Sorry couldn't resist....

Ninturtle
06-17-2017, 10:15 PM
A few months ago I heard of a similar story.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship
17-Year-Old Transgender Boy Wins Texas Girls' Wrestling Championship
Seems like it's becoming the new norm. No opinion on it so far for me.

I mean that's kind of different, the transgender boy wanted to wrestle against other boys but was't allowed to.

TurtleWA
06-17-2017, 10:56 PM
I mean that's kind of different, the transgender boy wanted to wrestle against other boys but was't allowed to.

Similar in that it involves high school sports and transgender students.

BubblyShell22
06-25-2017, 03:28 PM
They're not men if they identify as women.
And I know you're being purposely obtuse by suggesting that they are.

Genetics is not quite as cut-and-dry as a high school level biology class will lead you to believe. it's a great deal more complicated then a Punnett square or Gregor Mendel's pea plants.

In my opinion, unless someone fully transitions into the gender they identify as (meaning they look and sound like the gender they identify as and not as their given gender), then I consider them as their given gender and not their identified gender. I get that juveniles can't fully transition due to age issues, but even in that instance, I would consider them their given gender until they fully transition.

And speaking of that, this boy shouldn't have won because he is not a girl. He's a boy and only grew his hair out to make him look like a woman.

Women have their own sports teams and men have their own sports teams which I think is fine. Look at the WNBA and how originally women weren't seen as being able to play basketball. Heck, my cousin played for a women's football team in Michigan and even coached it for a time before giving up on it because it was too much work and she was getting injured. I think it would be cool for there to be women's football if they want to play it either in high school, college, or professionally.

Metalwolf
07-08-2017, 03:09 PM
In my opinion, unless someone fully transitions into the gender they identify as (meaning they look and sound like the gender they identify as and not as their given gender), then I consider them as their given gender and not their identified gender. I get that juveniles can't fully transition due to age issues, but even in that instance, I would consider them their given gender until they fully transition.

And speaking of that, this boy shouldn't have won because he is not a girl. He's a boy and only grew his hair out to make him look like a woman.

Women have their own sports teams and men have their own sports teams which I think is fine. Look at the WNBA and how originally women weren't seen as being able to play basketball. Heck, my cousin played for a women's football team in Michigan and even coached it for a time before giving up on it because it was too much work and she was getting injured. I think it would be cool for there to be women's football if they want to play it either in high school, college, or professionally.Agreed. This kid could even be a trans-trender, somebody who adopts the persona of trans because they think it's cool and trendy or is craving the extra attention. I've read elsewhere that this kid is kind of unexceptional on the boys' team, but on the girls,' he blew them away.

And besides, I don't think transitioning is going to be the easy answer he'll think it is. There seems to be this growing trend of 'If I don't have the stereotypical interests/personality/whatever of a male/female, then I must be the opposite gender!' It's like gender roles and gender stereotypes on steroids, only it's medicalized now and people get pushed into hormones and transitioning rather then getting to the root of exactly why they feel this way.

mrmaczaps
07-09-2017, 11:53 AM
They're not men if they identify as women.
And I know you're being purposely obtuse by suggesting that they are.

Genetics is not quite as cut-and-dry as a high school level biology class will lead you to believe. it's a great deal more complicated then a Punnett square or Gregor Mendel's pea plants.

But she's actually, really a dude. He can call himself a girl, sit to pee and eventually mutilate himself but he will in fact, always be a male. All he really is is delusional.

ToTheNines
07-09-2017, 12:05 PM
And you aren't?

mrmaczaps
07-09-2017, 12:09 PM
And you aren't?

Not at all.

ToTheNines
07-09-2017, 12:28 PM
Thought I was on your ignore list.

mrmaczaps
07-09-2017, 12:46 PM
Thought I was on your ignore list.

Apparently theres a feature that allows people to see whatever someone on their block list posts. :lol:

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 05:11 PM
But she's actually, really a dude. He can call himself a girl, sit to pee and eventually mutilate himself but he will in fact, always be a male. All he really is is delusional.

Could you define male for us please?

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 05:38 PM
Could you define male for us please?

A human born with a p*nis.

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 05:46 PM
A human born with a p*nis.

So...is someone who has had their penis removed for any reason no longer male?
Is it just the penis? Or penis and testicles?
What if they were born with both a vulva and a penis?

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 05:59 PM
So...is someone who has had their penis removed for any reason no longer male?

Nope. They're still male as they were born that way.

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 06:02 PM
Nope. They're still male as they were born that way.

Interesting.
That the entire basis for your gender is a word you can't type without self censoring.

Okay, that covers the phenotype, but what about the genotype.
What if a person is genetically born XY, but phenotypically presents with a vulva.
Or if another person is genetically XX, but phenotypically presents with a penis.
Or again, is phenotypically both by having a penis and a vulva.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 06:09 PM
I've read a little bit about the condition where people are rarely born with both organs but it also said that one is typically dominant over the other. For e.g. A person with both organs who can get someone else pregnant but can't get pregnant themselves. In that case, they'd be considered male.

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 06:12 PM
I've read a little bit about the condition where people are rarely born with both organs but it also said that one is typically dominant over the other. For e.g. A person with both organs who can get someone else pregnant but can't get pregnant themselves. In that case, they'd be considered male.

So it's not just a penis, but an intact one with gonads that produce functional gametes post puberty.

So...someone born sterile, but with a penis, isn't a male because they can't produce offspring?
With that in mind, is maleness not determined until such time as puberty has been completed?

I mean, otherwise, how would we know if they're destined to shoot nothing but blanks?
And if they do shoot nothing but blanks, does that make them something else?
Or is female just anything that doesn't have functioning intact male genitalia?

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 06:21 PM
So it's not just a penis, but an intact one with gonads that produce functional gametes post puberty.

So...someone born sterile, but with a penis, isn't a male because they can't produce offspring?
With that in mind, is maleness not determined until such time as puberty has been completed?

I mean, otherwise, how would we know if they're destined to shoot nothing but blanks?
And if they do shoot nothing but blanks, does that make them something else?
Or is female just anything that doesn't have functioning intact male genitalia?

I never said has to be fertile at a later age. Just has to be born with a certain organ to be considered either sex. And in the extremely rare case of a person having both organs, one is typically dominant over the other which determines what the person's sex was meant to be.

Even if someone is sterile, their body is still designed with a blueprint for working a certain way which allows anyone to identify whether they're male or female.

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 06:28 PM
I never said has to be fertile at a later age. Just has to be born with a certain organ to be considered either sex. And in the extremely rare case of a person having both organs, one is typically dominant over the other which determines what the person's sex was meant to be.

Even if someone is sterile, their body is still designed with a blueprint for working a certain way which allows anyone to identify whether they're male or female.

You didn't say it, but you heavily implied it when you equated the dominance of a particular set of organs with their ability to function.

And if we're going to go the route of saying the human body has a specific design of function, then isn't the intersex person exactly as they should be?

Neither 100% male nor 100% female.

Also, you mention the blueprint, but continually evade my question of geneotype over phenotype.
What are our genes if not the blue print of our "design".

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 06:51 PM
And if we're going to go the route of saying the human body has a specific design of function, then isn't the intersex person exactly as they should be?

Neither 100% male nor 100% female.

Also, you mention the blueprint, but continually evade my question of geneotype over phenotype.
What are our genes if not the blue print of our "design".

I don't understand what you mean by your comment on intersex design of function, sorry. Please elaborate for me.

in cases of genotype vs phenotype, the person's phenotype is more important in determining whether they are male or female.

As I said before, the criteria is being born with a certain organ, and a even a person with XX male syndrome for e.g. Is still born a male and not a female. That's why he is called an "XX male".

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 07:26 PM
I don't understand what you mean by your comment on intersex design of function, sorry. Please elaborate for me.

in cases of genotype vs phenotype, the person's phenotype is more important in determining whether they are male or female.

As I said before, the criteria is being born with a certain organ, and a even a person with XX male syndrome for e.g. Is still born a male and not a female. That's why he is called an "XX male".

You said:
And in the extremely rare case of a person having both organs, one is typically dominant over the other which determines what the person's sex was meant to be.

You assert that our primary sexual characteristics denote our sex, and that this phenotype is by "design," but then imply that the inherent design of intersex people is somehow...wrong and in need of further determination of what was "meant."
Men have a penis, women have a vulva, and intersex people...require a flag on the play.

So...you're perfectly fine with a genetic female being considered a male, because they have a penis.

And perfectly fine with a genetic male being considered a female, because they have a vulva.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-09-2017, 08:08 PM
You assert that our primary sexual characteristics denote our sex, and that this phenotype is by "design," but then imply that the inherent design of intersex people is somehow...wrong and in need of further determination of what was "meant."
Men have a penis, women have a vulva, and intersex people...require a flag on the play.

Yes, that's my view. I think the design of having two reproductive organs on the same person is not normal and is in need of further determination.

So...you're perfectly fine with a genetic female being considered a male, because they have a penis.

And perfectly fine with a genetic male being considered a female, because they have a vulva.

I consider the former to be a male, and the latter to be a female, not the other way around.

plastroncafe
07-09-2017, 08:23 PM
Yes, that's my view. I think the design of having two reproductive organs on the same person is not normal and is in need of further determination.


So then...the design in question isn't an intelligent one.
Interesting.

Thanks for your candor.

Refractive Reflections
07-30-2017, 11:27 PM
So an individual says that they're trapped in the wrong body, and they need to physically change themselves (through extensive surgery and/or hormones) because they identify differently than the body they currently have.

Why is this considered socially acceptable when it comes to transgenderism, but individuals are considered mentally ill if they are anorexic or have "body dysmorphic disorder" (i.e. Michael Jackson)? Is this not selective bigotry then?

TurtleWA
07-31-2017, 12:00 AM
So an individual says that they're trapped in the wrong body, and they need to physically change themselves (through extensive surgery and/or hormones) because they identify differently than the body they currently have.

Why is this considered socially acceptable when it comes to transgenderism, but individuals are considered mentally ill if they are anorexic or have "body dysmorphic disorder" (i.e. Michael Jackson)? Is this not selective bigotry then?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3385287

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-transgender-mental-illness-classification-20160729-story,amp.html

https://www.healthyplace.com/ocd-related-disorders/body-dysmorphic-disorder/what-is-body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd-dsm-5/

May find more information after reading the above 3 articles.

Refractive Reflections
07-31-2017, 12:53 AM
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3385287

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-transgender-mental-illness-classification-20160729-story,amp.html

https://www.healthyplace.com/ocd-related-disorders/body-dysmorphic-disorder/what-is-body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd-dsm-5/

May find more information after reading the above 3 articles.

So I read through the articles...
https://www.healthyplace.com/ocd-related-disorders/body-dysmorphic-disorder/what-is-body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd-dsm-5/
This mental illness stands apart from typical insecurities about appearance in that the person who suffers is obsessed and chronically anxious about the perceived defect to the extent that quality of life is impaired.
One could easily argue that this reasoning could apply to those transgendered, since they see the "perceived defect" as their anatomy and their quality of life is impaired.

Men and women suffer equally from body dysmorphic disorder. They obsess over individual physical features, combinations of features, or even the entire body and appearance. Features such as one's nose, hair, skin, weight or body shape may represent the focus of obsession. Beginning as a nagging insecurity, this illness can lead to compulsive symptoms such as hair plucking, skin picking, excessive grooming, eating disorders, repeated cosmetic surgeries, and varying degrees of clinical depression.

Individuals with BDD typically spend many hours each day attempting to conceal or modify the perceived flaw. They may use excessive makeup or try to use clothing to camouflage the imagined defect. As the insecurity grows, the attempts to hide the flaw can lead to obsessive ritualistic behavior in the preparation for each day. If unchecked, this behavior can create an inability to maintain employment or a social life, which can ultimately lead to the sufferer becoming housebound with anxiety and even attempts at suicide.
This "body dysmorphic disorder example" description is almost paralleling transgenderism here.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-transgender-mental-illness-classification-20160729-story.html

Reed found that many of his interviewees experienced a lot of distress in their lives. Later, using mathematical modeling, he found a good way to predict who was suffering -but the most important determining factor was not being transgender, it was something else.

"We found distress and dysfunction were very powerfully predicted by the experiences of social rejection or violence that people had," he said. "But they were not actually predicted by gender incongruence itself."
Putting aside the strong political activism in the article, this excerpt seems to be the crux of their argument. This becomes a huge slippery slope argument, basically stating "if society accepts how an individual identifies, that individual wouldn't have any distress and dysfunction." It begins to erode gender objectivity, and implicitly bolsters the arguments of those who are transracial, transabled, and dare I say trans-species, to make the same argument that their distress and dysfunction is from society, not by their ______ (gender, race, abled, species) incongruence itself.

As for that HuffPost article, yeah... it's hard to take that site seriously, when they initially didn't have qualms about posting things like this:
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20170413112251/http:/www.huffingtonpost.co.za/shelley-garland/could-it-be-time-to-deny-white-men-the-franchise_a_22036640/
http://archive.is/tveBZ
http://archive.is/QHqY4

TurtleWA
07-31-2017, 01:21 AM
So I read through the articles...
https://www.healthyplace.com/ocd-related-disorders/body-dysmorphic-disorder/what-is-body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd-dsm-5/

One could easily argue that this reasoning could apply to those transgendered, since they see the "perceived defect" as their anatomy and their quality of life is impaired.


This "body dysmorphic disorder example" description is almost paralleling transgenderism here.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-transgender-mental-illness-classification-20160729-story.html

Putting aside the strong political activism in the article, this excerpt seems to be the crux of their argument. This becomes a huge slippery slope argument, basically stating "if society accepts how an individual identifies, that individual wouldn't have any distress and dysfunction." It begins to erode gender objectivity, and implicitly bolsters the arguments of those who are transracial, transabled, and dare I say trans-species, to make the same argument that their distress and dysfunction is from society, not by their ______ (gender, race, abled, species) incongruence itself.

As for that HuffPost article, yeah... it's hard to take that site seriously, when they initially didn't have qualms about posting things like this:
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20170413112251/http:/www.huffingtonpost.co.za/shelley-garland/could-it-be-time-to-deny-white-men-the-franchise_a_22036640/
http://archive.is/tveBZ
http://archive.is/QHqY4

Did the articles assist in bringing you any closer to finding answers to your original questions surrounding society, metal illness and bigotry?

BubblyShell22
08-01-2017, 03:21 PM
I agree that transgender people are suffering from a form of mental illness but it also could be due to a chemical or hormonal imbalance in the body too. I believe if those could be fixed, then the person would no longer think they identify as someone else.

Utrommaniac
08-01-2017, 03:26 PM
That kind of thinking is why we ended up with the travesty that is conversion therapy.

BubblyShell22
08-01-2017, 03:41 PM
But it makes sense to just fix the problem rather than to let the person think otherwise and have all of this identity crisis about who they are. And you have to remember that this type of thing also affects those around that person and changes things. That's just my take on it whether you agree with me or not. I don't agree with this lifestyle and I don't feel that I have to conform to it and that others don't have to conform to it either.

plastroncafe
08-01-2017, 03:42 PM
Fixing the problem is exactly what trans* folk are doing though.
You just disagree with what the problem is.

BubblyShell22
08-01-2017, 03:46 PM
If you're referring to transitioning, some of them do that but others don't. I'm just saying that if there's a way to fix it without the person changing who they are completely, that would be a good thing and would help with any issues they may have regarding this condition. If I felt this way, I would seek mental help and see what could be done to change it because I just feel that it's not normal for people to think this way. There's something wrong in the brain if someone thinks they are someone else.

plastroncafe
08-01-2017, 03:51 PM
I'm saying you think there's something wrong with their brains, while the trans*folk in question believe there's something wrong with their bodies.

Folks who transition do so while under the care of a mental health specialist as well as an endocrinologist. It's kind of required that they do so. Heck, before people are allowed to undergo gender confirmation procedures they're required to live as their gender for a full year prior.

Utrommaniac
08-01-2017, 03:59 PM
They're not changing who they are, they're becoming who they are. It's no different from coming out as gay/bi. Just on gender grounds rather than sexual orientation.

plastroncafe
08-01-2017, 04:02 PM
They're not changing who they are, they're becoming who they are. It's no different from coming out as gay/bi. Just on gender grounds rather than sexual orientation.

And none of these things would be groundbreaking or controversial in the slightest, if there wasn't so much shame wrapped around them by folks who just flat out refuse to accept that nature ain't great at binaries.

BubblyShell22
08-01-2017, 04:04 PM
No, they're changing who they are based on delusional thinking. People who say they identify as a certain gender aren't really that gender. They just think they are and transition to make themselves feel better. I don't agree with it and think it's totally and completely wrong. I was always taught that you shouldn't be someone you're not and that you should be happy with who you are and be yourself. These people change themselves either because of a mental illness or insecurity because they don't fit in as their given gender.

Being gay or bi is different because those people aren't changing who they are. They are just acting on their attraction for the same sex or both sexes.

That's the way I look at it. If you don't agree with me, fine. If you want to hate me for my viewpoint, that's fine too. I stand by my beliefs and I'm not going to change them for anybody.

plastroncafe
08-01-2017, 04:09 PM
Well, let me be the first to thank you for being part of the problem that helps to wreck families every day.

Families like mine.
But you know, you don't care what other people think of you, so it probably won't matter to you in the slightest.

Also, you might want to look into the difference between Gender and Sex, because you're using them interchangeably, and that's inaccurate.

In conclusion, sit down before you hurt yourself.

Utrommaniac
08-01-2017, 04:11 PM
And who are you to say who they "really are" to "be themselves"? The only people who know "who they really are" is themselves, and sometimes that means transitioning in order to fully achieve that.

sdp
08-01-2017, 05:35 PM
While "pray the gay" away and other horrible things like it are not the solution. Last time I checked people who transitioned usually had problems as well and it's only a minority that feel happy after and the percentage of suicides is high.

The problem is you can't mention it without people calling you transphobic, and if you can't talk about the problem then nothing will get done.

Sex v Gender another stupid argument that while there are valid points on that side, has become a joke thanks to people taking it to the extreme.

As long as no one wants to actually talk about it without insulting the other we'll continue having this social climate and one side will eventually win. Protip: The progressives are losing.

TurtleWA
08-01-2017, 05:54 PM
Things seem like they would have been more simple back when humans only cared about food and shelter. People who identify as transgender are lucky that modern medicine and doctors have advanced enough to make any of the procedures possible.

sdp
08-01-2017, 08:54 PM
Lucky for the rich/well-off Transgenders who can afford it.

BubblyShell22
08-04-2017, 03:38 PM
Well, let me be the first to thank you for being part of the problem that helps to wreck families every day.

Families like mine.
But you know, you don't care what other people think of you, so it probably won't matter to you in the slightest.

Also, you might want to look into the difference between Gender and Sex, because you're using them interchangeably, and that's inaccurate.

In conclusion, sit down before you hurt yourself.

I'm not part of any problem. People like you are part of the problem because you just don't like it when others have a different belief system and viewpoint. Please excuse me for not conforming to anyone else's way of thinking. I don't have to do so and can believe whatever I want. But the problem with people like you in society is you feel that people can only think and believe one way and if people have a different opinion about this, you automatically despise them for their opinions.

I don't care if you disagree with me as that is your right. But to say that I'm part of the problem is very ignorant and narrow-minded of you.

Last time I checked, gender and sex are the same thing. I've filled out applications for jobs and some of them ask for your sex or your gender and you have to respond either male or female. But in this messed up society we live in now, we'll probably have to change that to make the transgenders feel like they belong or something stupid like that.



And who are you to say who they "really are" to "be themselves"? The only people who know "who they really are" is themselves, and sometimes that means transitioning in order to fully achieve that.

Because they aren't thinking clearly and are mentally ill. The problem with these people is they are changing themselves for whatever reason they believe in and if they aren't happy with their given gender, that's a problem that needs to be resolved. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but this is the way I look at it whether you like it or not.



While "pray the gay" away and other horrible things like it are not the solution. Last time I checked people who transitioned usually had problems as well and it's only a minority that feel happy after and the percentage of suicides is high.

The problem is you can't mention it without people calling you transphobic, and if you can't talk about the problem then nothing will get done.

Sex v Gender another stupid argument that while there are valid points on that side, has become a joke thanks to people taking it to the extreme.

As long as no one wants to actually talk about it without insulting the other we'll continue having this social climate and one side will eventually win. Protip: The progressives are losing.

Well said, sdp. No one is allowed to have a different opinion in this day and age and that's sad. Nowadays it's all about conforming to only one opinion and that's it. That's why I despise society as much as I do.

Candy Kappa
08-04-2017, 04:13 PM
While "pray the gay" away and other horrible things like it are not the solution. Last time I checked people who transitioned usually had problems as well and it's only a minority that feel happy after and the percentage of suicides is high.

Transitioning don't cure depression or being constantly surrounded by bigoted jackwagons.

But, it's a myth that the majority of trans people that get SRS regrets it, and it reduces suicidality by 60-80%.

Bry
08-04-2017, 04:17 PM
As long as no one wants to actually talk about it without insulting the other we'll continue having this social climate and one side will eventually win. Protip: The progressives are losing.

The regressives are extremely aggressive and vocal at this point in time, but that doesn't mean they're winning in the long-term. We've seen enormous social change in society over the past several decades, which is a big part of why there's such an extreme pushback: they're scared. Both sides are, really. Regressives are scared because their strict view of the world and society is being challenged. Progressives are afraid because the rights and freedoms of the most marginalized are being threatened. (And I will always care more about the latter than the former.)

Utrommaniac
08-04-2017, 04:26 PM
It's a myth that the majority of trans people that get SRS regrets it, and it reduces suicidality by 60-80%.

This deserves repeating. A lot. Not to mention that suicide/depression is reduced even further when the family is supportive of the transition .

plastroncafe
08-04-2017, 04:34 PM
The regressives are extremely aggressive and vocal at this point in time, but that doesn't mean they're winning in the long-term. We've seen enormous social change in society over the past several decades, which is a big part of why there's such an extreme pushback: they're scared. Both sides are, really. Regressives are scared because their strict view of the world and society is being challenged. Progressives are afraid because the rights and freedoms of the most marginalized are being threatened. (And I will always care more about the latter than the former.)

^^^
This.
A thousand times this.

A more welcoming world keeps people from being closeted.
Which in turn keeps them from pretending to be someone they're not, and doing something foolish like....oh I don't know, lying to someone they've made a life-long commitment to and blowing up that family dynamic emotionally as well as financially.

Defending the status quo hurts people.

Transitioning don't cure depression or being constantly surrounded by bigoted jackwagons.

But, it's a myth that the majority of trans people that get SRS regrets it, and it reduces suicidality by 60-80%.

This deserves repeating. A lot. Not to mention that suicide/depression is reduced even further when the family is supportive of the transition .

I'm repeating it again, just because it's so important.

sdp
08-04-2017, 11:46 PM
Actually it's pretty much the exact opposite with progressives who are the ones that are extremely vocal and aggressive. This lead to the rise of Trump, and now those views that were almost eliminated after the Bush administration have found new people and we have no one to thank but the militant progressives who took over what was right to further their own political agenda.

Let's take a look at Laci Green, one of the most influential people on the internet and a feminist and proponent for gay rights. Even she eventually got fed up with the BS and started talking about it so we could have a dialog over what had gone wrong and why the other side did have some points. She clearly stated she was still pretty much what she's always been but that at some point the path was lost. How did the "peaceful" progressives react? By writing hit piece after hit piece questioning and trying to ruin her reputation for daring to ask questions. I saw her being called trash by so many respected people and places from the left.

She's just the perfect example of everything that is wrong with the far left right now and the reason the far right was able to not only make a comeback but grow. Everyday the so called "progressives" keep alienating more and more people, learned their lesson they have not.

A more welcoming world doesn't exist where there is #1stworldprivilege but I guess that's too grown up for progressives to tackle.

BubblyShell22
08-05-2017, 07:18 AM
What people need to get is that not everyone is going to have the same mindset about things no matter what it is. Equality goes both ways, but SJWs and other idiots don't see it that way. They see it as, "You need to believe what I believe and if you don't, you're bigoted and hateful." That is extremely narrow-minded thinking on their parts.

Hey, while we're at it, let's encourage someone who's depressed and suicidal to kill themselves instead of seeking help for it, or someone with anorexia to binge and purge because they're just being themselves. By encouraging transgenders to be who they think they are instead of seeking help for their unhappiness and trying to get them to see that changing themselves isn't the answer, we're just contributing to the problem and teaching our youth the wrong lesson and encouraging mental illness to exist.

I don't care if you think I'm bigoted and hateful for my views. This is the way I see it and if that makes me bigoted and hateful, then I'm proud to be so. At least I'm not conforming to everyone else and I'm sticking to my views.

Candy Kappa
08-05-2017, 07:27 AM
It's funny how Bubbly compares being transgender as being suicidal or bulimic, cause in the UK, being trans is still considered a mental illness. But, the treatment is transitioning, so by keeping the outdated "mental illness label" trans people can transition under the NHS (at least last time I checked it might have been screwed over by the conservatives by now).

plastroncafe
08-05-2017, 09:29 AM
In the States we've begun to refer to transitional surgery as Confirmation Surgeries, because yeah...that's what they do.

Which isn't to say that surgery is necessary to transition, because it isn't.
(Buck Angel is proof enough of that. Warning: don't google Buck if you're not over 18.)

Transitioning won't magically cause the world to be less of a crap place towards trans folk, nor will it magically give them a supportive family....in the blood sense, not in the found sense. The trans community is a pretty welcoming place overall.

When people equate trans folks with being depressed, they overwhelmingly blame it on the person and not the environment the person is in. I think they do it to absolve themselves of being the creators and maintainers of that environment.

It's like, I'm going to keep kicking you when you're down, and it's your fault for not getting up fast enough...not my fault for continuing to kick you.

(Watch though, those are the folks that react the most spectacularly when they, in turn, get kicked.)

FredWolfLeonardo
08-05-2017, 02:31 PM
In the States we've begun to refer to transitional surgery as Confirmation Surgeries, because yeah...that's what they do.

The confirmation of people's lust and desire to be another sex, definitely, thinking it will bring them contentment and relief.

Which isn't to say that surgery is necessary to transition, because it isn't.
(Buck Angel is proof enough of that. Warning: don't google Buck if you're not over 18.)

Well, I did google her, and she did have a significant amount of testosterone injections even if she did not have surgery. However, the biggest transition of all is the transition of the mind, not the body. I'm sure we both agree on that.

Transitioning won't magically cause the world to be less of a crap place towards trans folk, nor will it magically give them a supportive family....in the blood sense, not in the found sense. The trans community is a pretty welcoming place overall.

When people equate trans folks with being depressed, they overwhelmingly blame it on the person and not the environment the person is in. I think they do it to absolve themselves of being the creators and maintainers of that environment.

It's like, I'm going to keep kicking you when you're down, and it's your fault for not getting up fast enough...not my fault for continuing to kick you.

(Watch though, those are the folks that react the most spectacularly when they, in turn, get kicked.)

I believe it does actually depend on the person and not just the environment. There are people who have died and endured pain for far nobler causes and even if their efforts ended in failure, what mattered in the end was standing up for whats right no matter what. They won't blame it on the person kicking them every time they go down, they won't blame anyone.

They will keep on trying up to get up or die trying with honour. They are are far more fulfilled than those like the trans community who seek worldly validation, because they aren't lusting and desiring after those things, but live a much greater life than that. They are the true heroes, and ultimate happiness is theirs.

plastroncafe
08-05-2017, 02:43 PM
The confirmation of people's lust and desire to be another sex, definitely, thinking it will bring them contentment and relief.

For some it does.

Well, I did google her, and she did have a significant amount of testosterone injections even if she did not have surgery. However, the biggest transition of all is the transition of the mind, not the body. I'm sure we both agree on that.

Him.
I know you're doing this on purpose to troll, and it's not appreciated.
If nothing else all it does is identify you as a person not to be trusted.
So...thanks for that.

I believe it does actually depend on the person and not just the environment. There are people who have died and endured pain for far nobler causes and even if their efforts ended in failure, what mattered in the end was standing up for whats right no matter what. They won't blame it on the person kicking them every time they go down, they won't blame anyone.

They will keep on trying up to get up or die trying with honour. They are are far more fulfilled than those like the trans community who seek worldly validation, because they aren't lusting and desiring after those things, but live a much greater life than that. They are the true heroes, and ultimate happiness is theirs.

It's nice that you think that.

Redeemer
08-05-2017, 02:51 PM
It's funny how Bubbly compares being transgender as being suicidal or bulimic, cause in the UK, being trans is still considered a mental illness. But, the treatment is transitioning, so by keeping the outdated "mental illness label" trans people can transition under the NHS (at least last time I checked it might have been screwed over by the conservatives by now).

Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.

plastroncafe
08-05-2017, 03:05 PM
Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.

This is exactly what already happens.
Just...so everyone is aware.

Biological Sex is more than just the existence of an X or a Y chromosome.
There's just more to it than that.

I took molecular cell biology in 2002. There were literally portions of the human genome referred to by the professor as "junk DNA" because we hadn't discovered what it did.

Fast forward to 2017 and all those little coding repeats we couldn't understand are now known by the name CRISPR (Clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats).

If someone can be genetically XX and still develop male, and someone born genetically XY but can still develop female, then why is it such a stretch of the imagination to accept trans* folks?
I mean, short of just outright willful ignorance.

It's just really no different than the people who willingly beat my grandmother in the name of Christ because she dared to be left-handed.

BubblyShell22
08-05-2017, 04:35 PM
I think they should also research why people feel this way and what causes them to feel that they identify as a different gender. It's different if say a male develops breasts and that is a sign of a hormonal problem. But for people who just say that they identify as a different gender, it would be nice to really pinpoint the exact problem in their brain that is making them feel this way.

But thank you, Redeemer, for backing me up on this.

TurtleWA
08-05-2017, 05:39 PM
This thread is interesting to read because I know very little about transgender except what's in the news. Does the definition of transgender change based on the society one lives in. If it's about behavior and appearance. Doesn't socially acceptable appearance and behavior for specific genders change depending on the area of the world you live in and it's culture. Or is transgender about the anatomy? I never heard about someone being XX and developing as male. Seems there could be a third gender or even more. I read recently Caitlyn Jenner upset some people because they thought she encouraged harmful gender stereotypes. Everything about this conversation confuses me and I think it must confuse others as well.

plastroncafe
08-05-2017, 05:43 PM
TI never heard about someone being XX and developing as male.

It's called XX Male Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome).

Genetics is fascinating, and no where near as clear cut as the Punnet Squares most people learn about in high school biology would lead us to believe.

Utrommaniac
08-05-2017, 05:45 PM
There's also Swyer Syndrome (https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome) with women.

Genetics is complicated, especially when gender is involved. And yes, it does expand past XX and XY (http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm), but it's not always..."functional".

TurtleWA
08-05-2017, 06:00 PM
Is genetic testing routine before confirmation surgery?

Utrommaniac
08-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I don't think it is.

Usually the genetic testing is done, especially in the cases of Swyer Syndrome, to determine why <puberty step here> isn't happening to someone when it doesn't happen to them after a particular time.

Redeemer
08-05-2017, 06:43 PM
This is exactly what already happens.
Just...so everyone is aware.

Biological Sex is more than just the existence of an X or a Y chromosome.
There's just more to it than that.

I took molecular cell biology in 2002. There were literally portions of the human genome referred to by the professor as "junk DNA" because we hadn't discovered what it did.

Fast forward to 2017 and all those little coding repeats we couldn't understand are now known by the name CRISPR (Clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats).

If someone can be genetically XX and still develop male, and someone born genetically XY but can still develop female, then why is it such a stretch of the imagination to accept trans* folks?
I mean, short of just outright willful ignorance.

It's just really no different than the people who willingly beat my grandmother in the name of Christ because she dared to be left-handed.

I heard of the term Junk DNA before, but not "CRISPR" sounds very interesting and sounds like it explains the biological factor part. Surgery would defiantly be a benefit.

My earlier post was to point out that a person who identifies as transgender could be suffering from gender dysphoria. I personally think it could be either or causing someone to identify as transgender.

Is genetic testing routine before confirmation surgery?

With what plstroncafe pointed out I don't think its possible at this time. But if a test could be run it would help separate people who's gender dysphoria is psychologically driven and those who's is biologically driven.

Cure
08-05-2017, 07:12 PM
All this stuff on sex and gender is cool and all, but can we all at least agree that people who identify as animals are ****ing insane and need help?

plastroncafe
08-05-2017, 07:36 PM
I heard of the term Junk DNA before, but not "CRISPR" sounds very interesting and sounds like it explains the biological factor part.


CRISPR is amazing!
It's basically a bacteria's version of an immune system, and by using it we can "convince" cells to do all sorts of things. The technology is just...it's mind blowing. Damn near literally a game changer.

Andrew NDB
08-06-2017, 01:45 AM
I've put a lot of thought into this, but I really haven't really come up with anything conclusive.

Strictly going on biology, what makes a male a male and what makes a female a female:

A) MALE:
* You have a penis.
* You (can) insert said penis into a vagina, ejaculate, and impregnate a female.
* Your skin is a little tougher to bruise than a female's, and your breast tissue doesn't develop.
* Your muscle tissue develops naturally easier than a female's.
* You might go bald.
* Your voice is deeper because your adam's apple develops way more.
* You will generally live a good amount less long than a female.
* Statistically you'll be a bit taller than females.

B) FEMALE:
* You have a vagina.
* You (can) receive a penis into your vagina, receive its ejaculate, and conceive a child as a result.
* Your skin is a little more susceptible to bruising than a male's, and your breast tissue develops in order to nurse any offspring you have.
* Your muscle tissue doesn't develop as easily as it does for a male.
* You won't go bald. 99% odds, you won't.
* Your voice is not as deep as a man's because you never develop an adam's apple.
* You will generally live a good amount longer than a male.
* Statistically you'll be a bit shorter than males.

That's about it, right? Is that about right?

There are others, but those appear to me to be the only big hallmark things set by nature that set the sexes apart. If a female baby and a male baby raise themselves in the wilderness, those are really the only things that would seem to set themselves apart. And that's the thing I keep coming back to... male and female toddler, in the woods on an island, Blue Lagoon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcOM4blutzc)-style. What happens? And what happens if you run the same experiment 100 times? What makes one male and what makes one female? Behaviorally, would one have a predilection to smearing berries on their face as crude makeup, or fashioning dresses over the other? I don't think that's there. I tend to think there'd be some pretty base-level stuff going on... protecting the mate, guarding the home, rearing the children, gathering foodstuffs. It'd reason to say that the male, as occurs in nature, would be fashioned genetically as the primary hunter/gatherer to protect the female for the time when the female is rather vulnerable for 9 months at a time (genetically, species are pretty good about "OK, there NEEDS to be a protection mechanism during this time," whether it's the mate himself or something else). Now, at this point it's a little wonky in nature... the male can completely become disposable. Mating is done, the male can be eaten and consumed (or just wanders off), his duty done. This is a thing. One thing, anyway. But generally the male can be a throwaway thing. And that's fine.

What I don't wholly understand is (just as one example) "I am a transgender female, this means I want to right away put on a skirt, makeup, long hair, and painted nails." Because none of those items are coming from the place of genetics, DNA, or anything biological. They can't. These are man-made constructs, borne of culture and society. Surely there is nothing biologically or genetically female about these things. Now, I understand there are transgender people that don't adhere to those stereotypes... but they seem a bit few and far between. Pretty much, the transitioning seems to be (to use the transgender female example) "let me get myself and everyone in my circle used to me wearing 'girl clothes,' long hair and makeup while I take these hormones or don't," no?

I'm totally the last guy to tell anyone what to do. I am more than OK with anyone doing whatever the hell they want to do as long as it's not hurting anyone else. Totally cool. You want to become a male or female, change your gender, register as such, surgery or not and even get married to either gender, and enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other couple? Perfectly fine by me. I'd just like to understand the science behind that a little more before I can say, "OK, I get that, that's completely innate on a genetic level" because right now I don't entirely grasp it as I currently understand it. I admit I am not a genetics expert, remotely.

And don't get me wrong. I have an uncle that became an aunt. I'm not insensitive to it at all and I'd be open to someone explaining it to me in a way that I can wrap my head completely around.

Mayhem
08-06-2017, 04:24 AM
I see where you are coming from with some of that Andrew in regards to tropes and what's supposedly for boys and for girls. Another perfect case in point here... we traditionally associate blue with boys, and pink with girls, right? Wrong. As recent as the late Victorian period here in the UK, blue was associated with girls and pink was associated with boys. When and why did they swap? No one is particularly sure, but it did. So having girls in pink and it being a "girly" colour is not much more than a century old here, and I'd argue probably way less than that in terms of specific gender identity.

Candy Kappa
08-06-2017, 05:57 AM
Yeah, the shift of switching blue into a "boy's color" and pink into a "girl's color" happened around the 1940's

mrmaczaps
08-06-2017, 08:13 AM
Kappa..... Transgender is still recognized as a mental health issue by "Who"
Its call Gender Dysphoria.
The jury is still out on whether it is a biological factor or a behavioral factor or even both.

Bottom line is Bubbly has a point. If a person is suffering from the illness Gender Dysphoria then we should try counseling first at least to rule out environmental factors. If a person is still adamant about transition then seriously talk about transitioning and continue to see a counselor through the process.


^^^this all day...

This case is all about a MAN who couldn't cut it as a man, so is using the current messed up PC bs to call himself a woman just so he can do what he has done, beat the compitition... And then bragging about it.

Also, if you are suffering from this, you don't need my permission or my consent and you will never have my agreement that adding or removing bodyparts as being the solution to "fix" the (mental health) problem.

plastroncafe
08-06-2017, 08:44 AM
This case is about a teenager. Teenagers aren't men and women, they're boys and girls, at least until they reach the age of majority at 18.

And Larry's point only stands because it's standard operating procedure.
Like, years of counseling are required for transition.

As for Andrew's biology lesson, most of that exists on a spectrum, and doesn't come into play until puberty. Prior to puberty there really isn't much in the way of secondary sexual characteristics.

And women do indeed have an adam's apple. It's just not as pronounced as a dude's...on average.

But hey, I guess today I learned I'm not female, according to Andrew, so that's something.

Candy Kappa
08-06-2017, 09:12 AM
This case is all about a MAN who couldn't cut it as a man, so is using the current messed up PC bs to call himself a woman just so he can do what he has done, beat the compitition... And then bragging about it.

"Current messed up PC bs"... I guess you're not aware that Transgender people have existed for quite a bit longer then anything that's "current" :lol:

Unless you view the civilizations of Mesopotamia and Assyria as "Current". Or Two-Spirits in Native American culture, Winagu Nati ritual in Okinawa or South Asia's Hijra.

I guess Dörchen Richter was a part of the "Current messed up PC bs" back in 1931.

sdp
08-06-2017, 10:26 AM
Sex =/= Gender

So, the easiest way to identify people now in the age of infinite genders is through sex then. Male, Female and for the few intersex. But the extreme left gets mad when you do this because you're using their own logic against them.

This rise of PCs is going to end though, the majority of the people doing it is because its sort of a fad and a way to be rebellious with your parents, hence the popularity of this in sites like tumblr. These outcasts instead of finding clothes at hot topic use this as a way to "rebel" against the status quo and are bending facts.

I like this tweet (https://archive.fo/49GFq)by professor peterson, basically everytime someone questions the narrative they're doomed to be labeled alt-right and shunned "literally hitler.

All this stuff on sex and gender is cool and all, but can we all at least agree that people who identify as animals are ****ing insane and need help?

Why do they need help? I see no difference between someone who identifies as a different gender with someone who identifies as another animal. As long as they're not hurting anyone and we're not hurting their mental state by letting them who cares.

One of my best friends is an "otherkin" who thinks he is literally a dragon. He's still a smart guy who is pretty cool and normal and only his most trusted friends know that about him, well besides his other "otherkin" friends who also think they're dragons. As long as they're not actually having sex with animals who cares what they identify as.

"Current messed up PC bs"... I guess you're not aware that Transgender people have existed for quite a bit longer then anything that's "current" :lol:

I guess Dörchen Richter was a part of the "Current messed up PC bs" back in 1931.

The currently messed up PC BS is being called a homophobe for expressing a slightly different point of view in stuff that there are no concrete studies and or even questioning some of the more shaky information. That's not what science is.

Tomboys, sissies etc have always existed and it wasn't a problem besides a few ignorant people. It's just today's outrage culture that wants to label everyone and judge others if they don't agree with their segmenting and antagonizing of simple things.


But hey, I guess today I learned I'm not female, according to Andrew, so that's something.

I don't see Andrew's logic much worse than the average SJW tumblr post on gender spectrums.

plastroncafe
08-06-2017, 03:56 PM
I don't see Andrew's logic much worse than the average SJW tumblr post on gender spectrums.

Really?
Would you care to expound upon this further?

Papenbrook
08-06-2017, 04:03 PM
https://makeameme.org/meme/this-thread-needs-hym4rn.jpg

***First of Two Latin Kings***
08-06-2017, 04:36 PM
I started reading up on the XXY and XYY and other syndromes as a result of this thread.

I feel like I am having a heart attack.

Sumac
08-07-2017, 05:42 PM
Man = Penis.
Woman = Vagina.

Wherever you consider yourself male of female is another matter. But denying existence of biological sexes is strange.

As for the article in question - in this age it's expected and I agree with sdp, soon it will go down.

Refractive Reflections
10-12-2017, 06:19 PM
yAAlFya89aw

Spike Spiegel
10-12-2017, 07:12 PM
yAAlFya89aw

Somehow I knew that was going to be a Prager University produced video.

This place is becoming too predictable. 8)

It would help if they had citations on screen or in the description for when they say "scientists now believe ____________________."

sdp
10-13-2017, 08:28 PM
Really?
Would you care to expound upon this further?

I don't believe your'e not familiar with Tumblr gender rants, you're too into political topics to not be aware.

You may think you're better than say mrmaczaps but in reality you're in the same range just all the way on the other side. ひ

plastroncafe
10-13-2017, 10:15 PM
I don't believe your'e not familiar with Tumblr gender rants, you're too into political topics to not be aware.

You may think you're better than say mrmaczaps but in reality you're in the same range just all the way on the other side. ひ

Really?
Would you care to expound upon this further?

Sumac
10-13-2017, 10:28 PM
I don't believe your'e not familiar with Tumblr gender rants, you're too into political topics to not be aware.

You may think you're better than say mrmaczaps but in reality you're in the same range just all the way on the other side. ひ
Disagree.
mrmaczaps come of as unhinged and mentally disturbed rude individual, suffering from borderline paranoia.
PlastronCafe, despite our possible difference in views, comes as a nice person.

There are not even close to be the same.

mrmaczaps
10-14-2017, 01:33 PM
Disagree.
mrmaczaps come of as unhinged and mentally disturbed rude individual, suffering from borderline paranoia.
PlastronCafe, despite our possible difference in views, comes as a nice person.

There are not even close to be the same.

Aww did I hurt your little feelings? I'm not unhinged, mentally disturbed, rude or paranoid. I'm not a liberal. :Lol:

FredWolfLeonardo
10-14-2017, 01:52 PM
People really need to stop the mud slinging.

MrMacZaps isn't mentally disturbed all of a sudden because he is Christian, believes in only two genders, views marriage as between only 1 man and 1 woman etc.

Do I agree with his attiude all the time? Definetly not, but there are far worse attitudes out there. The reason Zaps gets picked on more is mostly because of his views.

Sumac
10-14-2017, 02:26 PM
Aww did I hurt your little feelings? I'm not unhinged, mentally disturbed, rude or paranoid. I'm not a liberal. :Lol:
My feeling are very hard to hurt. Especially the likes of you.
I just stated how you come through your posts, that is all - as scared shitless and angry paranoid person. If you want to be seen differently - act differently.

MrMacZaps isn't mentally disturbed all of a sudden because he is Christian, believes in only two genders, views marriage as between only 1 man and 1 woman etc.
LOL. Are you so naive or just pretend to be? Not that naivety do not expected from "believers". :roll:

mrm... doesn't come disturbed due to his views, but due to the way he formulates his posts.

And pretending to be victims for their views, when they are persecuted for being jerks, is a common tactic for some people. If you are an adult person you should separate the two and don't consider everyone who supports your personal views as "poor persecuted allies", because some of them are not worthy supporting and actively compromise your own ideals and values. Which why a lot of people give side eye to the left, currently.

FredWolfLeonardo
10-14-2017, 02:33 PM
LOL. Are you so naive or just pretend to be? Not that naivety do not expected from "believers". :roll:

mrm... doesn't come disturbed due to his views, but due to the way he formulates his posts.

And pretending to be victims for their views, when they are persecuted for being jerks, is a common tactic for some people. If you are an adult person you should separate the two and don't consider everyone who supports your personal views as "poor persecuted allies", because some of them are not worthy supporting and actively compromise your own ideals and values. Which why a lot of people give side eye to the left, currently.

What about his post formulation? That he says certain things are wrong because of his religion? Does saying that abortion is wrong, there are only 2 genders, and that Christianity the only right religion suddenly make you a Jerk?

If people can't handle that, they really need to grow thicker skin and not resort to name calling others like you just did many times in your post.

I am not even a Christian myself, and Mrmaczaps and I strongly disagree on many things. He goes as far as to consider my religion evil and satanic.

Yet I can see that he is picked on mostly because of his stances. Change the stance and the attitude will change. Muslims won't be picked on in the same way despite them actually being pretty close to Conservative Christians on so many things.