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Tarris Vaal
06-22-2017, 03:52 PM
I often hear people on the Drome comparing one iteration to another - OT compared to Nick, compared to PD, etc,etc.

I've noticed that the iterations have resulted in a very tribal mentality among fans - a lot of Mirage and 2k3 enthusiasts seem to really dislike Nick2012 for example.

The reasons for liking or disliking one iteration over another seem to vary but it made me curious as to what the defining Characteristics of each version of the turtles were - and what it was about them that drew people to them.

I mean I personally don't like 2k3 much. But I appreciate it has some good storylines, but this doesn't - for me at least - make up for what I perceive as poor characterizations of the turtles themselves. Nor for some very cheesy set ups within their stories.
Equally I don't see what people see in Mirage and even as a kid I was embarrassed by the OT.

Yet I find myself happily (bar the occasional let down) in the 2012 camp.

That all said I'm keen to know what it is that draws fans to one iteration over another? Obviously its a combination - but I am honestly really interested to know why Mirage (to take an example) has such a strong (and vocal) following compared to IDW for instance. Or why Nick2012 seems to give a good balanced compromise between iterations, yet gets constant flak from 2k3 fans.

Is it the art style? The style of storytelling (and if so in what way)? Comedy? Pure biased nostalgia? Character designs?

What are your thoughts? Which iteration(s) draw your loyalty most and why?

CyberCubed
06-22-2017, 03:55 PM
This is no different than any other fandom.

Star Wars fans compare the movies to the prequels to the comics. Star Trek fans have wars over all the different series. Batman fans argue over the best incarnation of Batman. Dragonball fans are having a crisis over Super. X-men fans are disgusted with Marvel. Pokemon fans argue over the best gen of pokemon, etc.

Welcome to any fandom for any series.

Powder
06-22-2017, 04:09 PM
Yeah, it's a fandom-wide thing. Some are more divisive than others, though.

For most people, those who become hostile over what's better or worse, usually that's rooted in a blind nostalgia. What they grew up with is definitive for them.

I was introduced to TMNT through the original cartoon & it was my main flame for many years, but when I dipped my toes in the Mirage pool, that universe became my favorite in perpetuity. Those of us who favor that universe, generally do so because it is the most "adult", & given it is the source material, the most important. I ride with all iterations, I realize they're all unique beasts with individual charms. The average or casual fan, however, may not concede their strengths but instead knock them for the ways they stray from, or in their mind disrespect the legacy of, their preferred/childhood version.

I don't really understand that mentality (except in extreme cases like The Next Mutation, Platinum Dunes, COOTS, etc), but it exists & is wide spread. :tlol:

neatoman
06-22-2017, 04:09 PM
Is it the art style? The style of storytelling (and if so in what way)? Comedy? Pure biased nostalgia? Character designs?



If you have to know, here are the basic problems with the Nick show.


It insists on having an ongoing storyline yet most episodes are self-contained, this defeats the purpose of of both serialised narratives and episodic ones. This way several episodes feel like a waste and the episodes that actually matter tend to feel rushed, while episodes that are meant to be self-contained are tainted by being in a middle somewhere, making it hard to watch casually.
The tone is all over the place and doesn't mesh well. It feels like randomly mixing pages of Dr Slump with Watchmen, it's not consistant.
A lot the ideas are clearly not thought out very well before implemented and plot twist tend to feel more like retcons than proper twists. Revealing the existance of the Utroms without ever mentioning anything about them is just one example.


It's not really what I'd call "bad", it's just not that good and it got tiresome within season 2.

Utrommaniac
06-22-2017, 04:12 PM
Plus when it does get to those reveals, it's usually way too late into the series to develop it properly. Again, such as the Utroms. But even more so, the history between Bishop and SubPrime/Knight.

Coola Yagami
06-22-2017, 04:49 PM
Countdown to Cubed posting counter arguments to every negative comment because the Nick show can't possibly be bad in any way.

MrPliggins
06-22-2017, 05:13 PM
I lean more toward the original Mirage stuff, mainly because of the art, which inspired me to become an artist myself. Sure it wasn't the greatest art in all of comics, but it had a cool style. It was similar to my art style, so I could relate. Also, outside of the comics themselves, Eastman and Laird's rags to riches story has always intrigued me. How many of us have had supposedly "dumb" ideas and nothing came of it? But these guys decided to pursue and make a comic book of their "dumb" idea. And the stars aligned just right.

I've tried watching 2k12, and it's just not my cup of tea. I made it halfway through the second season. It's the first time I haven't religiously watched a TMNT show. I think it's great that it has fans though, and more power to the show (even though it's ending..but I hope the new one does well too).

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
06-22-2017, 06:27 PM
I try to judge anything based on the quality of its writing and characterization.

Fred Wolf I haven't liked since I was a little kid, just because it's all goofy fun. I liked 4Kids for its series-long character development and plots, and the grimmer take on the villains. Nick I'm ambivalent on, just because it seems to be a self-conflicted take on whether it wants to be goofy fun or more serious and focus on plot and character development. Archie I can't fairly judge as I've never read it in its entirety, but it's based out of Fred Wolf so I'm predisposed against it.

Also, it's hard to argue with the fact that of all TMNT incarnations, the Mirage comics are the only ones aimed at an older adult audience and never felt the need to blatantly cater to Playmates or kids.

So in sum, I TRY to base it objectively on the qualities of the writing and development, but I reserve the right to abjectly hate things because I hated the action figure when I was playing in my childhood sandbox. :trazz:

IndigoErth
06-22-2017, 06:44 PM
I like much of it for what each is or tries to be. I just look at it as trying out different art styles. (Even if I like some styles a bit more than others.) Why paint the same subject the exact same way every time?

Granted there are certain things that are harder to find the value in. No way in hell am I ever going to have respect for that god awful Christmas special... but it's terribleness is hilarious.

Only stuff I detest is what I feel disrespects a character... Nick taking Mikey's intelligence to rock bottom; 2007 purposely making Leo look like such an ass... (edit: PD's lazy writing - and sticking Leo with flipping Knoxville last minute - like that all didn't matter, though to a limit I like some things about those films.) The Christmas thing is embarrassing for them, but at least it's a guilty pleasure degree of ridiculous. Were they friends, it's that kind of thing you'd never let them live down, but only good naturedly. :trazz:

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-23-2017, 02:06 AM
Star Wars fans compare the movies to the prequels to the comics.

But they take place in the same universe, so I guess it's like when fans compare seasons 1-7 of the 1987-1969 TMNT series with it's season 8-10.

snake
06-23-2017, 02:28 AM
People are gonna always play favorites. For most casual fans, depending on which incarnation they were introduced to first, they'll have a different idea of what TMNT "should" be, pretty much encouraging division.

We should start focusing on what it can be, because watching the same plot beats and characters will get old, and I think Nick was the necessary boiling point. It pulled a ton of stuff from the history of the franchise and cobbled it all together. Did it work? Results varied.

This next show is going to need a lot of new ideas to distance itself from everything else after 2k12 relied so heavily on borrowing.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-23-2017, 02:47 AM
This next show is going to need a lot of new ideas to distance itself from everything else after 2k12 relied so heavily on borrowing.

Yes, it needs. The only problem is that a lot of fans will complain like it isn't the turtles they used to know as children...

snake
06-23-2017, 02:52 AM
Yes, it needs. The only problem is that a lot of fans will complain like it isn't the turtles they used to know as children...

Fans have never not complained. About anything.

I'd rather not have artificial difference for the sake of difference (*cough* PDTMNT *couch*), but some inspired new ideas are probably what's best for the franchise.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-23-2017, 03:14 AM
Fans have never not complained. About anything.

I'd rather not have artificial difference for the sake of difference (*cough* PDTMNT *couch*), but some inspired new ideas are probably what's best for the franchise.

I think there should be a series which mixes some early-Mirage inspirations (in style of the 2003-2009 series) with popular Archie elements (visits to Japan, flooded future).

IndigoErth
06-23-2017, 10:32 AM
I'd rather not have artificial difference for the sake of difference (*cough* PDTMNT *couch*), but some inspired new ideas are probably what's best for the franchise.
Agree. I'm entirely okay with new stories (and why I wish they'd get brave and venture into adult Turtle territory where there is more room for new stories), but just altering the old foundation in stupid ways is a mistake. If someone is going to go that route, then it better as hell work really well, and not be the needless and lazy attempt that PD went for.

(*cough* PDTMNT *couch*)
You alright? :trazz: Been a hard few years for sure via PD, I know.

ssjup81
06-23-2017, 06:53 PM
For me, I like it to have a nice balance of humor and seriousness. I also like it where the characters themselves are fun to see. I love the fact that I can't favor a single turtle over the other for the 2012 show at this point. I like all of them and this is the first incarnation where Leo is favored by me. I also like retro throwbacks...like Space Heroes (Filmation Star Trek), for example...or the WWF references in A Foot Too Big. I've always loved junk like that.

What initially turned me away from the 2003 series was that it felt like it was taking itself too seriously. I'm not going to put it down and someday I'll watch it fully...but the 2012 show really appeals to me for what I mentioned above.

Tarris Vaal
06-23-2017, 07:14 PM
Does IDW strike a 'perfect balance' - if such were possible then?

It seems that what draws people to one iteration over another is mostly balanced storytelling between the main cast and consistent character growth using multi episode arcs. Or at least the perception of that

And its interesting how popular the serious takes on villains are. I mean I would fully agree that 2k3 Baxter is an excellent take on the villain, as is 2012 Shredder. Is it just a matter of personal taste for 'dangerous' villains or do a lot of people prefer more comical villains?

The comments so far also begs the question why not expand a tv series to have 'aging' turtles? - in that though they may start at a young teen stage, they are allowed to grow beyond and into young adult - with all the corresponding potential stories that entails. It seems like that would be popular among fans. Taking Nick as the current example why is there such a reluctance to push past the status quo? You could argue - Toys- but surely making older turtles would give more opportunities for toys, not less.

neatoman
06-24-2017, 04:03 AM
Does IDW strike a 'perfect balance' - if such were possible then?

It seems that what draws people to one iteration over another is mostly balanced storytelling between the main cast and consistent character growth using multi episode arcs. Or at least the perception of that

And its interesting how popular the serious takes on villains are. I mean I would fully agree that 2k3 Baxter is an excellent take on the villain, as is 2012 Shredder. Is it just a matter of personal taste for 'dangerous' villains or do a lot of people prefer more comical villains?

The comments so far also begs the question why not expand a tv series to have 'aging' turtles? - in that though they may start at a young teen stage, they are allowed to grow beyond and into young adult - with all the corresponding potential stories that entails. It seems like that would be popular among fans. Taking Nick as the current example why is there such a reluctance to push past the status quo? You could argue - Toys- but surely making older turtles would give more opportunities for toys, not less.

I din't think that's the problem, the Nick show is just written in a clunky way and presented rather awkwardly. "Doesn't quite know what it wants to be" might be the fuzzy way of putting it.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-24-2017, 05:19 AM
aging' turtles

The 2003-2009 series should've done that after season 4.

Tetsu Deinonychus
06-24-2017, 08:25 AM
Archie I can't fairly judge as I've never read it in its entirety, but it's based out of Fred Wolf so I'm predisposed against it.


It stops having anything to do with FW very early on, and distances itself pretty far. I highly recommend giving it a chance.;)

I think there should be a series which mixes some early-Mirage inspirations (in style of the 2003-2009 series) with popular Archie elements (visits to Japan, flooded future).

I second that.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-24-2017, 08:32 AM
It stops having anything to do with FW very early on, and distances itself pretty far. I highly recommend giving it a chance.;)



As you probably know, it first adopts season 1, "Return of the Shredder" and the "Incredible Shrinking Turtles" episodes. Then are some originals who could've been episodes. Then comes a process where it slowly distances itself, developing.

LeotheLateBloomer
06-24-2017, 08:45 AM
I get why some fans prefer a "balanced tone" but I don't believe that every version needs that. I feel that it's a 'safe zone' to prevent one from becoming too dark or too light which could potentially hinder the story depending on the material you're trying to work with. At it's core, you can have something be dark and gritty but still have plenty of elements that will make you laugh for a bit of levity and I felt that Mirage has that. If the storytelling is well-written and entertaining, that's what should matter.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-24-2017, 09:17 AM
Also, TMNT has for long been a small fandom.

Panther10
06-24-2017, 10:32 AM
This is no different than any other fandom.

Star Wars fans compare the movies to the prequels to the comics. Star Trek fans have wars over all the different series. Batman fans argue over the best incarnation of Batman. Dragonball fans are having a crisis over Super. X-men fans are disgusted with Marvel. Pokemon fans argue over the best gen of pokemon, etc.

Welcome to any fandom for any series.

You're right. I see this kind of tribalism over at the Toho Kingdom Godzilla. Every member has his or her own thoughts about the various incarnations of Godzilla from the Showa era of the 50's to the 70's, the Heisei era in the 90's and the Millennium series.

As far as my own individual experience with the turtles are concerned, my two favorite iterations are the 90's movies and the 2k3 series. I never watched much of the 87 series growing up, although I do have fond memories of renting video cassettes of the OT show from my local Blockbuster when I was a kid. So it was really the 2k3 that brought be back to the Turtles in full swing. I watched that show like crazy through college. But like most people of my generation, Ive undergone something of an FW Turtles revival as of late. It sort of started about a decade ago when I was in college (after watching the 2k3 series) and I picked up a couple of the dvd volumes, but man things really changed for me once the toys started coming out over the last couple of years....first with the classic collections, then Figuarts came along and now with Neca bringing the FW designs front and center with their 30th anniversary pack and the arcade sets...I just cant get enough of the original toon...And thanks in no small part to all of these turtle toys I've picked up within the last year or so, I suddenly find myself with more turtle figures in my collection now than I ever had as a kid. And most of it is 80's/90's nostalgia. I'd love to revisit the movies and the 2k3 series at some point. But it seems like the original show has taken up most of my time lately

ssjup81
06-24-2017, 07:11 PM
It stops having anything to do with FW very early on, and distances itself pretty far. I highly recommend giving it a chance.;)Yeah. I love the Archie series. I prefer it to Mirage. ^^;;

I liked how they fazed out Shredder, Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady early on and had its own original stories. It's still painful thinking back to that arc where poor Michelangelo was being tortured by those government guys, and Leonardo and Donatello got into the facility, saw what was going on based on the bloddy instruments they found and were almost murderous about it after putting two and two together.

The only thing I hated was that the Archie series didn't get a proper ending. Oh, and April. I just found her extremely boring for this iteration, even though she became a freelance reporter and started training in martial arts. That boyfriend of hers wasn't all that interesting either for me, despite his mystical powers or whatever it was.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-25-2017, 12:13 PM
Yeah. I love the Archie series. I prefer it to Mirage. ^^;;

I liked how they fazed out Shredder, Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady early on and had its own original stories. It's still painful thinking back to that arc where poor Michelangelo was being tortured by those government guys, and Leonardo and Donatello got into the facility, saw what was going on based on the bloddy instruments they found and were almost murderous about it after putting two and two together.

The only thing I hated was that the Archie series didn't get a proper ending. Oh, and April. I just found her extremely boring for this iteration, even though she became a freelance reporter and started training in martial arts. That boyfriend of hers wasn't all that interesting either for me, despite his mystical powers or whatever it was.

Early during its run, the Archieverse also depicted a far more brutal version of Krang.

CyberCubed
06-25-2017, 12:15 PM
The only thing I hated was that the Archie series didn't get a proper ending. s.

90% of Archie's subplots were resolved by the final issues, and Year of the Turtle functions as a proper ending.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
06-25-2017, 12:21 PM
That boyfriend of hers wasn't all that interesting either for me, despite his mystical powers or whatever it was.

Warrior Dragon He was a cool character taking down other large opponents, but I saw no point of making him a boyfriend for April.

pferreira
06-29-2017, 09:30 AM
I've noticed that the iterations have resulted in a very tribal mentality among fans - a lot of Mirage and 2k3 enthusiasts seem to really dislike Nick2012 for example. Fandom especially this site suffers hugely from tribalism. I've been attacked and harassed in the past for seeing one iteration of TMNT as worthy as others. It's crazy really because I've never once held one up higher than another in terms of quality. So as a result I'm the 'Fred Wolf apologist', I'm the mental patient with limited Internet access. Then there's the conspiracy theories about how my post count doesn't match the years I've been here... :o

Again while one interpretation of TMNT interests me more to talk about I've never been rude about or dismissed another iteration of TMNT because I didn't like it bar maybe The Next Mutation or TMNT III which have a reputation. The Nick series doesn't interest me? Then I don't visit that part of the forum because why would I apart from trolling and causing trouble? Simple logic which seems lost on some fans. I'm here to talk about something I enjoy, not to be told I suffer from blind nostalgia so it must be awful TMNT.

What you have to understand is that every fandom has it's big users. I don't mean big as in old in age, I mean big as in they've used the site the longest or posted the most. These prominent users become convinced their views are the right ones so no one is allowed to disagree. They become a tribe. You then face the problem (unless the mods intervene and talk some sense into them) of them alienating so any people that the big users end up being the only ones left at the end, limiting discussion in the process. IMDB boards suffered from that, this site as well unless people start changing. Beyond merchandise can't fans just appreciate and see the worth in stuff they don't care for that much? Guess it's too much to ask. :roll:

DisKosh
06-29-2017, 09:18 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing because the TMNT fandom is really civil compared to the Phantom of the Opera fandom.

I remember joining a group, the kind that blocked anyone if they liked this certain movie version and called anyone who hadn't read the book idiots. It had gatekeepers who hated people writing fanfiction or trying to write their own musicals yet they both wrote fanfiction and were even working on an opera of it. Plus every so often you got people being overly dramatic about leaving the fandom due to drama then being almost as dramatic announcing their return later.

In short, this fanbase it a little tribal but it's tame compared to a few other fandoms.

(Incidentally, I did come across one TMNT fan who was as bad as the Phantom fanbase, turns out she liked Phantom too).

Andrew NDB
06-29-2017, 09:20 PM
Does IDW strike a 'perfect balance' - if such were possible then?

Not possible, and no.

Powder
06-29-2017, 09:37 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing because the TMNT fandom is really civil compared to the Phantom of the Opera fandom.

I remember joining a group, the kind that blocked anyone if they liked this certain movie version and called anyone who hadn't read the book idiots. It had gatekeepers who hated people writing fanfiction or trying to write their own musicals yet they both wrote fanfiction and were even working on an opera of it. Plus every so often you got people being overly dramatic about leaving the fandom due to drama then being almost as dramatic announcing their return later.

In short, this fanbase it a little tribal but it's tame compared to a few other fandoms.

(Incidentally, I did come across one TMNT fan who was as bad as the Phantom fanbase, turns out she liked Phantom too).

Sounds exactly like the TMNT fandom & all other fandoms.

pferreira
07-06-2017, 03:13 PM
I remember joining a group, the kind that blocked anyone if they liked this certain movie versionIf you go to one of the big Biggles forums you can get banned for mentioning the 1986 movie, I kid you not. :o

DisKosh
07-08-2017, 07:18 AM
If you go to one of the big Biggles forums you can get banned for mentioning the 1986 movie, I kid you not. :o

Ugh, I hate people like that.

I've talked about her before but there was a woman who commented on the 2003 TMNT series on youtube. She claimed that she was the 'original Raph fangirl' and if you liked the Fred Wolf cartoon or the Nick series, you weren't a real TMNT fan. She was even known to report people to youtube and block them for 'not being real TMNT fans'.

She was also a Phantom of the Opera fan so I'm not surprised.

Panda_Kahn_fan
07-08-2017, 08:59 AM
This fandom seems divided because while 98 percent of ninja turtle fans are reasonable and level-headed, and judge each tmnt version on it's own merits, there are a few stubborn old mules (myself included) who cling to one version or another as superior, and try to push that idea on everybody else. Fortunately, most of the rest of the fan base, and the powers that be, have the good sense to totally ignore us, and our childish foolishness.

Powder
07-08-2017, 04:14 PM
98%? Who are you kidding? :tlol:

CyberCubed
07-08-2017, 05:20 PM
This thread has no reason to exist, the TMNT fandom is identical the the hundreds of other fandoms out there for any long running property.

I honestly swear some of you are acting like this is your first week on the internet or something.

Panda_Kahn_fan
07-09-2017, 04:29 AM
98%? Who are you kidding? :tlol:

I was trying to err on the side of politeness.

LeotheLateBloomer
07-09-2017, 07:24 AM
This thread has no reason to exist, the TMNT fandom is identical the the hundreds of other fandoms out there for any long running property.

I honestly swear some of you are acting like this is your first week on the internet or something.

My thoughts exactly!

DestronMirage22
07-09-2017, 07:32 AM
Seems like any other fandom to me.
People'll like what they like. And they'll be more open to other people that share the same interests and more opposed to people that don't. It's not really difficult to understand.

pferreira
07-13-2017, 09:56 AM
I've talked about her before but there was a woman who commented on the 2003 TMNT series on youtube. She claimed that she was the 'original Raph fangirl' and if you liked the Fred Wolf cartoon or the Nick series, you weren't a real TMNT fan. She was even known to report people to youtube and block them for 'not being real TMNT fans'.Yeah unfortunately a lot of users on here are behaving that way. This site isn't exactly approachable since I've been here.

98%? Who are you kidding? :tlol:I can name the amount of rude, close-minded people on this site and it's more than 2%. :lol:

Seems like any other fandom to me.
People'll like what they like. And they'll be more open to other people that share the same interests and more opposed to people that don't. It's not really difficult to understand.New users every week are discovering this website. The question you have to ask is from a newbie's point of view are the users on here approachable? I've seen a a couple of new users post here recently and get told to essentially bugger off because they like something the more vocal users here don't like. Should a fan site that wants to be respected be promoting that mentality?

Andrew NDB
07-13-2017, 10:10 AM
This thread has no reason to exist, the TMNT fandom is identical the the hundreds of other fandoms out there for any long running property.

I honestly swear some of you are acting like this is your first week on the internet or something.

Yep. How true.