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Avenger
07-03-2017, 01:53 PM
Hello everybody,

I was wondering when Batman get this "aura" of superiority over everyone else.

I know he's one of the most iconic and popular superheroes, but he seems to do everything:

- He knows all 454338 martial arts on the planet
- He seems to out-think everyone, either on a scientist level or a deduction level (as a detective)
- He seems to always be 12 steps ahead of everyone else when a menace comes.

I just don't know at which moment it was decided Batman would be THIS guy. He seems to be the Deus ex machina superhero.

Even the popular catchphrase "Because I'm Batman" prove it: doesn't need other explanation that "it's Batman".

sdp
07-03-2017, 01:56 PM
He already was when I got into comics a decade ago so I'm guessing a long ass time.

Andrew NDB
07-03-2017, 02:14 PM
Somewhere around the Grant Morrison run on JLA that began around 1997, I think. There simply didn't exist that aura around Batman until then, and even then it took a few years to really cement in.

snake
07-03-2017, 02:15 PM
When casuals started liking him at time of Batman Begins' release. This doubled during TDK's release

Andrew NDB
07-03-2017, 02:24 PM
When casuals started liking him at time of Batman Begins' release. This doubled during TDK's release

Nah, that didn't do anything to elevate Batman to the Chuck Norris level. If anything, Begins did the opposite... it humanized him more than ever, made him weak, vulnerable.

Though, perhaps, things like the Nolan movies opened people's eyes to stuff like the Morrison JLA stories. The "Batman will defeat anyone, he is always the smartest guy in the room" started there.

snake
07-03-2017, 02:32 PM
Nah, that didn't do anything to elevate Batman to the Chuck Norris level. If anything, Begins did the opposite... it humanized him more than ever, made him weak, vulnerable.

Though, perhaps, things like the Nolan movies opened people's eyes to stuff like the Morrison JLA stories. The "Batman will defeat anyone, he is always the smartest guy in the room" started there.

I'm not talking about the movies themselves, but they certainly gave rise to the "BATMAN CAN DO ANYTHING" folk.

Andrew NDB
07-03-2017, 02:35 PM
I'm not talking about the movies themselves, but they certainly gave rise to the "BATMAN CAN DO ANYTHING" folk.

I'm not sure I'm seeing it. The movies are great, but the Christian Bale Batman could barely even fight off dogs. If the "BATMAN CAN DO ANYTHING" thing was born around then, it wasn't because of anything that happened in those movies.

CyberCubed
07-03-2017, 02:36 PM
I thought it's been like this since at least the 80's? Even when I was a kid Batman was always the most popular DC superhero.

snake
07-03-2017, 02:37 PM
I'm not sure I'm seeing it. The movies are great, but the Christian Bale Batman could barely even fight off dogs. If the "BATMAN CAN DO ANYTHING" thing was born around then, it wasn't because of anything that happened in those movies.

It's definitely not, but it's certainly when the Batman franchise had the biggest influx of fans since the Burton movie. It's probably unlikely that comic readers only spread this to the point of it becoming fact.

Andrew NDB
07-03-2017, 02:38 PM
I thought it's been like this since at least the 80's? Even when I was a kid Batman was always the most popular DC superhero.

Nah. Beyond isolated stuff like the Miller mini-series TDKR and Batman: Year One, there really wasn't that going on anywhere. Batman 1989 certainly kicked in the door for a whole fandom to agree, "Batman is COOL!" but the whole "Batman can beat anyone/he's the smartest man in the room/he is 10 steps ahead of everyone" wasn't even on the radar back then.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-03-2017, 02:44 PM
These days, Batmans even beating superman which I think is ridiculous. As the fanboys say, give Batman enough prep time and he can beat anything.

snake
07-03-2017, 02:46 PM
It's pretty funny how "prep time" is often a deciding factor in "CAN BATMAN BEAT GOKU/SUPERMAN/GOD/CYBERCUBED/X" questions.

CyberCubed
07-03-2017, 02:47 PM
But can Batman beat Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku?

Splinter the boss
07-03-2017, 03:03 PM
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11273&stc=1&d=1499112164

Candy Kappa
07-03-2017, 03:18 PM
Batman's been overcompensating for decades, it's nothing new. If anything the Nolan movies tried to humanize the God King of Mary Sues.

Krutch
07-03-2017, 03:23 PM
That's a big part of why I never got too into Batman. They always bill him as the underdog because he's just a man, but when his whole shtick is to overcome all odds, then he's never really the underdog.

Splinter the boss
07-03-2017, 03:23 PM
I like it though because Batman is pretty much the only mortal in the justice league. Him having such a reputation comforts the fans and pretty much gives him more respect and power. Also he has had many feats that earned him his reputation.

TMNT_Guy
07-03-2017, 03:50 PM
I'd say the seeds were planted at least as far back as the Adam West Batman series. He always had the right gadget to get him out of a death trap, he always knew that obscure piece of trivia that lead to the villains downfall, he and Robin could takeout a room full of goons with nothing more then their fits, etc. Though I don't think things got completely ridiculous until around the time Batman started keeping detailed lists on how to kill his fellow super heroes should they ever go rouge.

Though "normal man with extreme knowledge, intelligence and fighting prowess" is nothing new. Sherlock Holmes was doing it 52 years before Batman

Spike Spiegel
07-08-2017, 03:49 PM
I noticed it a lot in Justice League/Unlimited.

Ninjinister
07-08-2017, 03:54 PM
Batman, the Chuck Norris of superheroes? Surely that wouldn't be Merryman?

GoldMutant
07-12-2017, 11:46 AM
Because he's Batman.... or "The Goddamn Batman" for a certain incarnation. :lol:

LeotheLateBloomer
07-17-2017, 06:40 AM
I'm not sure I'm seeing it. The movies are great, but the Christian Bale Batman could barely even fight off dogs. If the "BATMAN CAN DO ANYTHING" thing was born around then, it wasn't because of anything that happened in those movies.

Pretty much this!

"Batman has no limits.":roll:

Avenger
07-17-2017, 02:19 PM
I've read a couple of Batman comics (Hush, Under the Red Hood, Long Halloween) and when Batman is in his own comic book, by himself, we don't see much that side of him.

He seems to be characterized this way when working with the Justice League, or other super-heroes.

LeotheLateBloomer
07-18-2017, 02:02 PM
I felt they got him right in the Animated Series but I'm the minority that says even TAS has flaws.

Tetsu Deinonychus
09-30-2017, 10:55 AM
I've read a couple of Batman comics (Hush, Under the Red Hood, Long Halloween) and when Batman is in his own comic book, by himself, we don't see much that side of him.

He seems to be characterized this way when working with the Justice League, or other super-heroes.

I think they feel the need to establish that he can stand on the same level with beings like Superman/Green Lantern/etc. despite not having "actual" superpowers.

But, at this point it's been well established that he can and does stand toe-to-toe with them, and his array of gadgets, martial arts techniques, detective skills, and scientific know-how basically count as super-powers anyway. There's really no need to keep drilling into our heads that he's on the same level. We already know.

And, it's getting to where he's not just "as good" as powered heroes, he's "better". I have no problem with Batman being able to beat Superman, when the two have a fight (I prefer them getting along, though). But, I have a problem with Batman always beating Superman when they fight.

Anyway, I think the seed was planted back in Miller's "Dark Knight Returns", but Andrew's probably right that Morrison's JLA run cemented it in.

Batman's been overcompensating for decades, it's nothing new. If anything the Nolan movies tried to humanize the God King of Mary Sues.
I'd give the title "God King of Mary Sues" to Wolverine actually.

plastroncafe
09-30-2017, 11:18 AM
I'd give the title "God King of Mary Sues" to Wolverine actually.

Wolverine might be over-powered, but he's not a Sue.
Sue's are the best at all things. Wolvie's just the best at what he does.
While Bruce Wayne is super rich, handsome, and the most eligible bachelor in Gotham City...if not the US, Wolverine is a short, stocky, Canadian guy without so much as a pot to piss in.

He might be overpowered, but he's not a Sue.
Same goes for Deadpool.

Tetsu Deinonychus
10-04-2017, 01:17 PM
No complaints about Deadpool.

But, I don't think it gets much more sue-ish than Wolverine's ridiculously complicated "mysterious origin" story. He's hundreds of years old, but he doesn't remember any of it, and he's been in every war, oh and he's also a samurai for some reason (despite not being Japanese), and he's been experimented on to get a metal skeleton, and he's been a part of essentially, every Marvel Superhero team (even though he's supposed to be a "loner"), even the Fantastic Four (http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/dork8/default.php).

He's a different kind of Mary Sue than Batman (more of an "Angsty Sue", though Batman might qualify too), but I would say he takes the cake over all.

Though, we are talking superheroes. I guess a little bit of Sue-ness is part of the genre. The real problem, I think is the way DC and Marvel over-promote these characters to pander to their fanbases. Does Batman really have to appear in every DC comic, and does Wolverine have to appear in every Marvel?

PApagreg
10-04-2017, 01:36 PM
No complaints about Deadpool.

But, I don't think it gets much more sue-ish than Wolverine's ridiculously complicated "mysterious origin" story. He's hundreds of years old, but he doesn't remember any of it,

How is tha Mary sue-ish

and he's been in every war, oh and he's also a samurai for some reason (despite not being Japanese),

The dude has enhance strength, stamina, speed, reflexes, senses, and healing factor why would't he join a few wars here and there also there has been examples of white and black samurai in history.

and he's been experimented on to get a metal skeleton, and he's been a part of essentially, every Marvel Superhero team (even though he's supposed to be a "loner"), even the Fantastic Four (http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/dork8/default.php).

So, Spiderman has been in every superhero team but he isn't a Mary sue.

He's a different kind of Mary Sue than Batman (more of an "Angsty Sue", though Batman might qualify too), but I would say he takes the cake over all.

Though, we are talking superheroes. I guess a little bit of Sue-ness is part of the genre. The real problem, I think is the way DC and Marvel over-promote these characters to pander to their fanbases. Does Batman really have to appear in every DC comic, and does Wolverine have to appear in every Marvel?
Again not really while Wolverine is a good fighter and strategist but hes far from the best in the MU. Batman meanwhile not only knows every martial art but has an in depth knowledge to every science discipline known to man, hell give Wolverine some credit if the problem is a math equation or science problem he would be screwed, Batman meanwhile would figure it out in under 5 seconds.

MsMarvelDuckie
10-08-2017, 07:03 PM
No complaints about Deadpool.

But, I don't think it gets much more sue-ish than Wolverine's ridiculously complicated "mysterious origin" story. He's hundreds of years old, but he doesn't remember any of it, and he's been in every war, oh and he's also a samurai for some reason (despite not being Japanese), and he's been experimented on to get a metal skeleton, and he's been a part of essentially, every Marvel Superhero team (even though he's supposed to be a "loner"), even the Fantastic Four (http://www.i-mockery.com/comics/dork8/default.php).

He's a different kind of Mary Sue than Batman (more of an "Angsty Sue", though Batman might qualify too), but I would say he takes the cake over all.

Though, we are talking superheroes. I guess a little bit of Sue-ness is part of the genre. The real problem, I think is the way DC and Marvel over-promote these characters to pander to their fanbases. Does Batman really have to appear in every DC comic, and does Wolverine have to appear in every Marvel?


Wolverine LIVED in Japan for several years and had samurai training during that time. Also the only teams he has been part of were the X-Men, X-Force, Avengers and maybe one or two others. All at different times (Except X-Men and Avengers. Those were concurrent.) Yes his powers are a bit over the top at times but he has never had the over-blown Sueishness that Bats does.

Spike Spiegel
10-10-2017, 02:31 PM
I've been reading the first few issues of Justice League International (circa 1987 or so), and Batman as portrayed in that comic fells a Green Lantern (Guy Gardner) with one punch.

Maybe this trend came after how he was portrayed in The Dark Knight Returns, which would have been published the year before?

plastroncafe
10-10-2017, 02:43 PM
I'm perfectly fine with blaming Frank Miller for this phenomenon.