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View Full Version : Thoughts on Tengu Shredder?


FredWolfLeonardo
07-23-2017, 03:54 PM
What do you all think of Tengu Shredder?

I have mixed feelings about him.

On the one hand, I like that the 2003 series gave us a human Oroku Saki after the Utrom Shredder was revealed to be Ch'rell, and I like his backstory, design and powers, not to mention his legacy.

On the other hand, I prefer Utrom Shredder because of his history with the turtles and I think the Tengu Shredder stands out less when Ch'rell had been calling himself "The One true Shredder" throughout the series.

neatoman
07-23-2017, 04:36 PM
Obvious retcon is obvious, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. There wasn't really any implication in the first three season that Ch'rell was impersonating anyone, they did give enough hints in season 4 for it to still feel organic but it's pretty clear it was an afterthought.

As for the concept and excecution, it's fine. He is effectively just Ch'rell with a different origin and slightly different goals, which is weird considering how they made clear he wasn't Ch'rell (that mystic bond between the Shredders might explain it away but that's a poorly explained concept itself), "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". He might be OP and season 5 had a rather insane climax because of that (Dragon transformations? I mean, really?), but I'm not against the idea in theory.

As for the debatable human status? I don't care, Shredder was created to be starter villain to be killed off, he's not that deep or interesting in the first place. At this point most versions of Shredder have ended up with a questionable human status, who cares? It's not a big deal.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-23-2017, 04:52 PM
Obvious retcon is obvious, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. There wasn't really any implication in the first three season that Ch'rell was impersonating anyone, they did give enough hints in season 4 for it to still feel organic but it's pretty clear it was an afterthought..

I personally would've preferred if Ch'rell created the aliases of Shredder and Oroku Saki for himself, it would've made him the "One true Shredder" like he calls himself but I'm happy with what we got.

Enter The Foot
07-23-2017, 05:07 PM
I never was personally bothered knowing the Utrom Shredder was a Utrom. It added a whole layer of dimension to the character of the Shredder. The Tengu Shredder played a great role to it. It added more into the whole backstory of the Ninja Turtles.

Although I never liked the belittling of Utrom Shredder via means by the Tengu. How the Ninja Tribunal viewed him as a joke. Turtles Forever though redeemed this in my opinion. I found that Utrom Shredder is more of threat then the Tengu Shredder in terms of goals and aspirations. I prefer the idea of human Shredder, but the 2k3 series was so great it didn't matter.

The Turtles connection/friction with this Shredder lacked for obvious reasons. The Lost Episodes came on around the time I was 8, and I initially thought the Utrom Shreder was back. I assumed he came back as zombie :lol: It took until Hun dissed Utrom Shredder to figure it out for me.

The-Shredder
07-23-2017, 05:19 PM
What I found interesting about his character was how articulate he was in his conversations. He always sounded cool and menacing to me when he spoke, even if he is a psychopathic villain with multiple intergalactic warrants on his head.

CyberCubed
07-23-2017, 05:21 PM
It was great to see a human Shredder now reincarnated as a magical demon, and the fights with him and story wrapping up Season 5 were well done.

ABrown
07-24-2017, 01:43 PM
Continuity discrepancies aside, I absolutely loved it. The demon Shredder episodes brought a nice conclusion to the ongoing story that was the first five seasons.

Anarchistguy
07-24-2017, 06:42 PM
It just made me glad there was a human Shredder
And he probably would've made Ch'rell look like a sheep.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-24-2017, 07:24 PM
It just made me glad there was a human Shredder
And he probably would've made Ch'rell look like a sheep.

Me too. There was an episode in Back to The Sewers I think where Tengu Shredder, Utrom Shredder and Cyber Shredder fought each other. It was pretty short, but it showed Utrom Shredder holding his own against the Tengu version which I found odd since Tengu Shredder is miles above his imposter when it comes to powers and abilities.

2K3
07-25-2017, 04:57 AM
Personally I loved the Tengu Shredder (his demon/ human and dragon form)! I loved his sadistic sense of humor and how saw everything simply as a game.

I just wished he was foreshadowed earlier than Season 4; the Foot Mystics should have been established as a separate faction to Ch'rell earlier too in my opinion!

dragonside
07-27-2017, 10:24 PM
thought it was legit.


I liked the idea of having the turtles tied to feudal japan (via this way).

Utrommaniac
07-27-2017, 10:29 PM
The only antagonist more boring than Ch'rell as the Shredder was the Tengu Shredder for me.

Now, there could have been a lot done to fix this. I think he could have learned about that particular demon and just adopted a lot of the terror it meant, but used a different name for reasons.

Frankly, I think the best thing the Tengu Shredder did was taunt Karai by putting on the face of the Oroku Saki she knew as her father after driving it through the belly with her sword. Which for her, meant killing Ch'rell (though...this IS the guy that got an arrow in the face (between the eyes?) and pulled it out like it was a thorn :ohwell: )

Spike Spiegel
07-28-2017, 09:42 AM
I always thought he seemed kind of tacked on at the end of the series.

In retrospect, I feel like Ch'rell never should have come back after "Secret Origins," and Tengu Shredder should have been introduced earlier. Perhaps he'd have been hinted at as the "True Shredder" within the simulation? It could have created a sense of dread.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
07-28-2017, 11:18 AM
I always thought he seemed kind of tacked on at the end of the series.

In retrospect, I feel like Ch'rell never should have come back after "Secret Origins," and Tengu Shredder should have been introduced earlier. Perhaps he'd have been hinted at as the "True Shredder" within the simulation? It could have created a sense of dread.

You mean Shredder's origin should have been revealed much later?

Utrommaniac
07-28-2017, 01:20 PM
I think an issue that could have been solved is that Ch'rell could have been killed at TCRI, and the spirit of the Tengu Shredder reanimated the body and wore it as a host as a kind of vengeance for the stolen identity.

At that point, Ch'rell could have been the flawed Shredder who felt that he'd been treated with great injustice his entire life, while Tengu Shredder was just the "Bleh bleh bleh, must take over the things, because I'm evil!!" category that dragged down Ch'rell's capability as an interesting, flawed and possibly even tragic antagonist.

So the entire time, Ch'rell would have been dead, but Tengu Shredder would have played the part of "Ch'rell" so well that no one was the wiser, including his own daughter, that is until things slowly start to get a little bit "off". Skip out on Ch'rell trying to return to space completely. The Utroms could come back initially to collect Leatherhead, but stay to help with the Tengu Shredder problem once it arises (and being the first to notice that something really weird was going on with "Ch'rell") and help Karai learn her father's history with a new perspective. She learns about how Mortu and Ch'rell had once been friends, how Ch'rell ultimately had to resort to being a criminal to survive, how he came to hate his people.

Some enormous possibilities were missed with Ch'rell, and one of them was addressing that he was not spiritually at peace; freeing his body of the Tengu Shredder was one aspect of peace. This would also mean Karai learning the truth of his history and reexamining her sense of honor in a different direction than Leo wanted her to, then using that refound honor to bring peace to her father.

ToTheNines
07-28-2017, 01:27 PM
He was lame and they lazily cast Scottie Ray to do his voice. Stupid.

I always thought he seemed kind of tacked on at the end of the series.

In retrospect, I feel like Ch'rell never should have come back after "Secret Origins," and Tengu Shredder should have been introduced earlier. Perhaps he'd have been hinted at as the "True Shredder" within the simulation? It could have created a sense of dread.

Exodus and Turtles Forever were epic enough that I don't begrudge the fact that they never killed him off. But your ideas would have been cool, also.

Utrommaniac
07-28-2017, 01:45 PM
Turtles Forever has its own problems with Ch'rell, and I think part of that was the writers coming right off the tail of Tengu Shredder and forgetting that, for the earlier parts, Ch'rell was subtle and conniving, and even had some degree of patience. Not constantly screaming that HE'S THE SHREDDER. THE TRUE SHREDDER. HE HAVE NO EMOTIONAL STUNTING WHATSOEVER.

And THAT was the biggest issue with any Shredder incarnation in the 2003 show. Constantly screaming how great they were because "THEY'RE THE SHREDDER. YOU CAN'T STOP ME BECAUSE I'M THE SHREDDER AND I'M GREAT." It's lame, it's boring, it strips any version of anything that could even remotely be interesting.

Ch'rell clearly has the symptoms of a tragic youth, but those details are never spoken.
Cyber Shredder was just Ch'rell's memory, in the body that everyone knew him to have rather than his own.
And Tengu Shredder was a very "western demon", of "Screamy McTakeOvertheWorld". While Tengu are actual supernatural creatures in the Japanese Mythos, they're almost nothing like Tengu Shredder, save for (http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/tengu.html) the (https://www.tofugu.com/japan/tengu/)arrogance (http://monster.wikia.com/wiki/Tengu).

It seems like they picked "Tengu" from the air because it sounded more intimidating, but "Yōkai Shredder" would have done the job too.

CyberCubed
07-28-2017, 04:32 PM
He was lame and they lazily cast Scottie Ray to do his voice. Stupid.

Why didn't you expect Scottie Ray to still voice him? Back when those eps originally aired back in 2005/2006 or whatever it was, I don't remember people being bothered by that.

ToTheNines
07-28-2017, 04:38 PM
Why the **** would he sound the same as an alien from across the galaxy? Literally makes zero sense. It's like if they cast William Shatner to play Picard in TNG. Totally different characters.

neatoman
07-29-2017, 05:11 AM
Why the **** would he sound the same as an alien from across the galaxy? Literally makes zero sense. It's like if they cast William Shatner to play Picard in TNG. Totally different characters.

Some kind of magic connection that wasn't explained very well? The only other explaination I can think of is that his real voice was kind of high pitched when he wasn't in his android body, so he just tweaked the android's voice box until someone recognised it as the Demon's voice to lend credibility to his performance. But that explaination might be null and void seeing how they stopped changing the pitch whenever he wasn't in his android body...

ToTheNines
07-29-2017, 05:56 AM
Some kind of magic connection that wasn't explained very well? The only other explaination I can think of is that his real voice was kind of high pitched when he wasn't in his android body, so he just tweaked the android's voice box until someone recognised it as the Demon's voice to lend credibility to his performance. But that explaination might be null and void seeing how they stopped changing the pitch whenever he wasn't in his android body...

Ah, the stupid "mystic connection", or whatever. Then by that logic, Karai should have been voiced by Scottie Ray.

His Utrom voice was exactly the same as his suit voice, just pitched up. They should have got someone with a convincing Japanese accent to do Tengu Shredder.

Utrommaniac
07-29-2017, 10:02 AM
In Ch'rell's first few appearances, it was higher, because Scottie Ray was using a helium balloon to bring his voice up. But he couldn't stand it, so he stopped doing that, and I guess they weren't bothered to pitch up the voice in post, so they left it was it was.

And I guess it wasn't intimidating enough for their taste either?

neatoman
07-29-2017, 10:23 AM
In Ch'rell's first few appearances, it was higher, because Scottie Ray was using a helium balloon to bring his voice up. But he couldn't stand it, so he stopped doing that, and I guess they weren't bothered to pitch up the voice in post, so they left it was it was.

And I guess it wasn't intimidating enough for their taste either?

Hahaha, holy crap, really? That's hilarious! I always assumed it was done with audio editing software.

Utrommaniac
07-29-2017, 10:31 AM
I think they COULD have done it that way, but for some reason didn't.

They were already editing the Utrom voices as it was...with some...weird mechanical edge that made it sound like they had computers in their vocal chords (wherever those may be in that particular design...or any of their other organs for that matter...)

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
07-30-2017, 11:12 AM
If Shredder is an extraterrestrial in any upcoming series, I hope at least his origin will be secret until his final showdown with the turtles.

Xav
07-30-2017, 05:23 PM
In Ch'rell's first few appearances, it was higher, because Scottie Ray was using a helium balloon to bring his voice up. But he couldn't stand it, so he stopped doing that, and I guess they weren't bothered to pitch up the voice in post, so they left it was it was.Do you have a source for this?

Utrommaniac
07-30-2017, 06:09 PM
I admit that I initially saw as a youtube comment, which is not an ideal source, or do I even remember which one by this point.

Powder
07-30-2017, 07:29 PM
I call bull.