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View Full Version : What is honestly better about OotS than the first?


neatoman
07-29-2017, 02:32 PM
Alright, so it's been over a year now and I get the impression that the general consensus now is that both of these movies are just awful. Anyone who claimed to really like one of them seem to have changed their mind or been uprooted. What I don't get, are the people who still claim the second movie was an improvement over the first one. How was it a better movie?

The first one is not a good movie by any stretch of the imagination but at least there was set-up, payoff, minimal character motivation, acceptable pacing, only really juggled one plotline and if nothing else it was short for a movie of it's time.

The second one is longer, has sub-plots that go nowhere, concepts that aren't given satisfying any explaination, one villain who does nothing, another who is given very little screentime and two really annoying villains.

How is it better? It's just an even bigger mess.

ProphetofGanja
07-29-2017, 02:40 PM
I fully agree, they both suck

IndigoErth
07-29-2017, 03:01 PM
Neither of them are good movies and are hugely flawed for separate reasons (with some shared reasons in the middle).

Personally, I prefer the second, primarily because it put the focus on the brothers as the stars of it (not halfassed April), the relationships between them (somewhat), tried to show a minuscule amount of down time with them, they look better in better lighting and tweaks to the models, Leo's vocal acting is better with Pete (for various reasons imo) and they did more with him than just have him present... and whatever else I'm forgetting.

That does not forgive it for the flaws, esp in a very lazy story, Casey, etc... but it did at least do a bunch of things (as mentioned) that I'd hoped for and, most importantly, did not leave me walking out feeling depressed like the first one did. (I'm sure getting some things I hoped for helped.) Feeling like "best movie ever"? God no... but I'd at least prefer not to feel depressed over it, even if some elements deserved an eye roll.



The only real subplot I see happening in the second - though imo it is very vague and you gotta pay attention to it to even pick up on it - is what's going on with Leo and his dealing with the failure of stopping Shredder from escaping, his disappointment in how he thinks they are not performing together as a team well (hit on by the opening training stuff, his comments after they go down the water fall, in the plane, etc), and the fear of how this new "it could turn us human!" ooze could tear them apart...all while Splinter told him that if he keeps the team together they'll always succeed. (And we know failing the last thing this guy wants to keep doing.) Stuff is bugging him for a good amount of the movie if you keep an eye on him... I give them a little credit that they keep this going with him and being vague isn't really a bad thing as its fun to pick up on it if you look hard enough, but it would have been nice to have at least one other subplot that is a bit more obvious and actually goes somewhere.

ToTheNines
07-29-2017, 03:22 PM
Not to mention all violence was pretty much avoided. It sucked way harder.

FredWolfLeonardo
07-29-2017, 04:02 PM
Well, the second one does have alot more screentime and focus on the turtles rather than April, and I think the voice cast/performances of the turtles were pretty well done, as if they really were brothers. And the turtles themselves are better than the first, having more distinct personalities rather than just all being Michelangalo and having more colourful and cartoony designs than the last film.

Other than the turtles, my reasons for liking Oots more than the first are the side characters. I really enjoyed Bebop, Rocksteady and Baxter Stockman in Oots and found them really memorable.

The only things I like better from the first film is the plot and April's connection to the turtles which wasn't there as much in oots, in favour of reducing April into seducing Mad scientists in schoolgirl outfits.

snake
07-29-2017, 04:35 PM
This one has more to make fun of.

Powder
07-29-2017, 04:35 PM
April wasn't the star of OOTS, that alone makes it superior, to me. But like FWL said, the turtles themselves are seen more & done a little bit better in general, + Bebop/Rocksteady weren't half bad. Loses major points for the Casey Jones botch-job, though, among other more obvious errors. I just find it easier to watch. 2014 is just bad, whereas 2016 is nearing the "so bad it's good" territory. Originally, the awfulness just hurt, it made me angry, but on the second go it was almost self-aware in its stupidity, so I was able to laugh a few times.

The first movie is darker & more violent, which I appreciate about it in comparison, but it was tonally all over the place, riddled with plot-holes, too many human leads, etc. Its sequel was goofy as hell, but at least it was consistent in that regard, focused on the turtles, & tried to pick up some slack by pandering to Fred Wolf fans (which I normally hate, but it helped, in their case, IMO).

Lest there be any confusion, I think they're both garbage. But I re-watched OOTS, & wish never to re-watch its predecessor. Well, I'd peep a fan-edit that cuts out a lot of stuff, but that's it.

mrmaczaps
07-29-2017, 04:41 PM
The first one was like a drunk driving bumper cars on steroids.

The second film was as pointless as one of the later Fred Wolf cartoon episodes times 4... but it made me laugh a few times so thats about all it had going for it.

I'm sure I'll get some grief despite this being a thread started as "these movies sucked" and I didn't start it... lol

Ulisa
07-29-2017, 04:48 PM
For me, it's the turtles themselves. We actually get time in OOTS to learn more about them and really see how they interact with one another. When I watch a TMNT movie, I want to see the Turtles primarily and not April O'Neil. The turtles felt almost lij guest stars in the first one so that was a welcomed change for the second.

There were a few moments that I really enjoyed in the second one: "Not a monster" scene, some of the interactions between Leonardo and his brothers and as cheesy as it is, I do love the "no one messes with Mikey" scene. BeBop and Rocksteady made me laugh as did Baxter Stockman.

It's hardly a masterpiece but it entertained me far better than the first one did.

IndigoErth
07-29-2017, 05:49 PM
I think one of my favorite parts really is the ending. People panned it at first, thinking it was going to be the Turtles outed, but since it takes place ONLY with the members of the police force who are now aware of them, and not the public at large, I'm okay with that. Wrapping it up with the Turtles receiving 'keys to the city,' which would surely mean a lot to them, was kind of sweet really.

Plus the final shot of them up there in the torch of the Statue of Liberty. Probably kind of a cliche way to close it, but since it's a local historical monument they'd probably never gotten the real opportunity to check out, it's cute. Just wish we'd gotten to follow them up there, climbing all those stairs. (Missed opportunity to have Mikey start to whine about it. lol)

FredWolfLeonardo
07-29-2017, 06:05 PM
I think one of my favorite parts really is the ending. People panned it at first, thinking it was going to be the Turtles outed, but since it takes place ONLY with the members of the police force who are now aware of them, and not the public at large, I'm okay with that. Wrapping it up with the Turtles receiving 'keys to the city,' which would surely mean a lot to them, was kind of sweet really.

Plus the final shot of them up there in the torch of the Statue of Liberty. Probably kind of a cliche way to close it, but since it's a local historical monument they'd probably never gotten the real opportunity to check out, it's cute. Just wish we'd gotten to follow them up there, climbing all those stairs. (Missed opportunity to have Mikey start to whine about it. lol)

Not to mention the music, which I still remember while I forgot what the background soundtrack of the 2014 movie was like. I liked the end scene of them celebrating on the torch, and the music certainly helped in that case.

And who could forget the theme song at the end. I loved the mashup of the original cartoon theme and Go Ninja Go.

CyberCubed
07-29-2017, 06:51 PM
The Turtles personalities themselves were definitely a lot better in the second. Not "good" by any means, but they still felt more like the Turtles. First movie they had no personalities at all besides Raph being angry and Mike being a pervert.

And best of all, ASIAN Shredder. Shredder a Japanese man.

No disgusting white man Eric Sachs. Eric Sachs didn't appear at all, which is great because the actor signed on for multiple movies. I HATE Eric Sachs. He's easily the worst official TMNT character of all time. A disgusting and offensive nearly 60 year old who almost became white man Shredder.

I actually like rewatching the beginning of Batman The Dark Knight Returns so I can see Eric Sachs be killed in the opening bank robbery scene by the Joker, when he puts a grenade in his mouth:

Yqvbv-SB4bg

^ Everyone watch this 5 minute clip from the movie to watch Eric Sachs shot by the Joker and then put a grenade in his mouth. Eric Sachs deserves DEATH.

IndigoErth
07-29-2017, 07:02 PM
Fitting, since I kinda like to figure that Eric Sachs is essentially Michael Bay, and his actions in the film akin (allegorical?) to Bay's assault on TMNT. (Drain them, even if it kills them; stupid rich... etc.)

DestronMirage22
07-30-2017, 01:08 AM
I agree they're both horrible movies. As far as the thread topic I'd essentially compare them to having either salt or alcohol rubbed on your wounds. You choose your method of torture when it comes to these. They both hurt but in different ways. Some might just prefer one over the other because they think it's not as bad as the alternative.

Andrew NDB
07-30-2017, 02:56 AM
What's better about OotS is that it finished the job this time. R.I.P., f***er.

Ninjinister
07-30-2017, 03:46 AM
Williams and Sheamus felt like they had really good chemistry, like they could be friends off-set even years later, like they could be out for steak and beers tomorrow.

I feel like overall the script was more... Turtle-y? If that make sense? Like it wasn't just an action movie with the Turtles shoved in, but a movie built around the Turtles.

I also liked the aspect of the Turtles making good with the NYPD. Wayyy too rushed, though. It should have been something that was introduced in the first one and followed through to completion here.

I'm leaving out what I don't think worked, because that's not what the topic is about.

AquaParade
07-30-2017, 12:54 PM
Eric Sach's :lol:

Almost forgot about that.

I appreciated tiny bits and pieces of each but they both completely failed in my eyes. Couldn't even finish the second film.

LeotheLateBloomer
07-30-2017, 05:43 PM
Seeing the worst version of April O' Neil ever for a majority of the movie as well as the origin story get completely butchered was more than enough to make me angry from the first one.

OotS, despite it's lighter tone, at the very least did some(?) things I'd like more in a TMNT film; the turtles acting a little more like characters, conflict between them, less human characters (since even the new cast was awful), etc. It does suck that there were hardly any action scenes compared to the first film which hurts me because it's what I prefer in a movie called Ninja Turtles but in hindsight, nothing about these guys scream "ninja". At least they became self-aware at everything else. It's less terrible than I thought it was going to be but still terrible.

Coola Yagami
07-30-2017, 06:19 PM
Bebop and Rocksteady to be honest. They ruined Krang and Casey. The mutant duo was the only saving grace, and of course the advantage sequels always have after their first movie. Skipping the origin and introductions and getting straight to the action.

Cryomancer
07-30-2017, 07:16 PM
There was at least one ninja in the second one, right? That's an improvement, I guess.

I never watched it.

DestronMirage22
07-30-2017, 08:02 PM
There's also the fact that OOTS helped keep Brad Garret in his acting career. I've always liked him as an actor. Even if his Krang wasn't all that.

Krutch
08-01-2017, 07:42 AM
Everything was better, to be honest. Doesn't make it a great movie, but its an improvement across the board.

-Better color palette
-Better action scenes
-Casey's casting was good (wasn't written well, though)
-Bebop and Rocksteady were fun for what they were
-More focus on the Turtles
-Consistent tone; the director at least knew what kind of movie he wanted to make and stuck to it

ToTheNines
08-01-2017, 10:32 AM
-Better action scenes
-Consistent tone

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/giphy.gif

Utrommaniac
08-01-2017, 10:39 AM
There's also the fact that OOTS helped keep Brad Garret in his acting career. I've always liked him as an actor. Even if his Krang wasn't all that.

And yet they barely hyped either of them?

Zachatello00
08-01-2017, 10:48 AM
Hmm, how would Vin Diesel answer this question...

Andrew NDB
08-01-2017, 11:18 AM
You have to admire OotS. It's like TPTB went around and rounded up every sh*tty element of McTMNT™ they could think of into one big bucket, and then when it all ended up being a resounding, huge failure...

PYTi5vfS2Ec

neatoman
08-01-2017, 11:26 AM
You have to admire OotS. It's like TPTB went around and rounded up every sh*tty element of McTMNT™ they could think of into one big bucket, and then when it all ending up being a resounding, huge failure...

PYTi5vfS2Ec

You just reminded me of one thing that really is better about it than it's predecessor:

It will forever serve as a reminder that the FW is not a greatly beloved timeless classic and TMNT can't rely on blindly emulating it for success.

IndigoErth
08-01-2017, 11:38 AM
Hmm, how would Vin Diesel answer this question...
Contemplate jumping from a plane, possibly to his doom?

LeotheLateBloomer
08-02-2017, 12:10 PM
I can see how frustrating it can be to like one over the other though since one has less screen-time with the turtles and a convoluted plot but at the very least, violent action scenes while the other has more time with the turtles but with no plot in exchange for random current events and terrible action scenes.

GoldMutant
08-07-2017, 09:49 AM
Contemplate jumping from a plane, possibly to his doom?

Maybe star in a better movie? :lol: One that wasn't a train wreck in the wakes?

Chris
10-01-2017, 04:38 PM
They were both bad but at least OOTS knew what it wanted to be. 2014 was built around a few action scenes and you could literally see where they re-wrote it on the fly after the Shredder controversy (having already rewritten it after the alien blunder). It was a movie that didn't seem to know what it wanted to be. OOTS at least seemed to know it was a live action episode of the FW cartoon and, for the most part, stayed true to that. Plus, like has been said, it starred the Turtles rather than April.

The first one made me angry at the squandered potential of a live action reboot and at how stupid it was ("can't help Leo, my shell's cracked", 10 seconds later uses shell to smash an armoured vehicle). I had more fun with OOTS because it was never more or less than what it said it would be. It's not my ideal Turtles now, but as a kid I would have loved it and I can appreciate it on that level (a bit like Batman & Robin in a way).

Probably helped that I saw it in 4DX as well. First time I'd seen a movie in 4DX and still the best. The fact that it had a lot of action made it perfect for the format. It was just a really fun experience seeing it like that.

All that said, we've now proved that FW & Bay do not equal box office success. Hopefully now we can get a director with a vision for the franchise who can do a Mirage or IDW inspired movie or Netflix series.

IndigoErth
10-18-2017, 09:41 PM
OotS at least paid Leo a bit more attention and respect.

Sitting here laughing lightly over that near-end scene in 2014 I just recalled, when the Turtles show up in the van and Megan Fox is all, "What are you guys doing here?!" And Leo leans out the window a little saying they thought they owed her a thanks.

Ever notice at that point she just walks right past him, to go talk to Raph, no acknowledgement whatsoever that he'd even said anything? :tlol: Poor guy. How rude! (Is it too much to at least smile at the guy and pat him on the arm as you walk past??)

Had this been OotS it might at least have not ignored him and left him hanging like that. Or at the very least see his facial expression show his reaction to being ignored. 2014 was not too kind to him and appreciate that OotS at least tried harder for him.

Panda_Kahn_fan
10-19-2017, 11:13 AM
Both bay movies are lousy, but OOtS actually accomplished one thing; For those who wanted to see the Fred Wolf characters who had been denied in previous films, we finally got them on the big screen. A terrible movie like OOtS is in my DVD collection beside the first four films for one reason and one reason only; it's as close to live action Fred wolf as we're going to get. Now, they can make as dark and gritty a TMNT film as they want, and the FW crowd is satisfied, and the rest of the fanbase doesn't have to be bothered by the 87 cartoon stuff anymore. .

ranger_scout
10-19-2017, 11:37 AM
I liked it because it tried to pay tribute to the cartoon series that was a staple of my childhood. I had waited to long to see Bebop and Rocksteady and Krang on the big-screen and it finally happened. The four actors playing turtles got to appear in more scenes this time around as well. They had believable chemistry and had terrific personalities.

In terms of its box-office, what it went was exactly what happened to live-action Scooby-Doo and Smurfs films. The first movies in those franchises were box-office successes despite their negative reviews, but their sequels failed to due respectable business at the box-office. Since we're not getting a third film I can live with the fact that there was a movie that tried to follow the 1987 series. If Paramount & Nickelodeon decide to make an animated movie, then maybe it could follow the route that 2007's TMNT took, which was that it took place in the same universe as the 90's films.

Panda_Kahn_fan
11-03-2017, 09:56 PM
I guess some people cut this movie some slack for what it tried to do, rather that the movie it actually is. The calls for all the nostalgic stuff people wanted to see were finally answered.

Shellington
01-19-2018, 01:29 PM
The first film comes off as an Amazing Spider-Man ripoff. Reptilian beings, villain schemes to mutate city, battle on tower, etc.

The second one feels more of a TMNT story, not just with drawing from the Fred Wolf cartoon (as reviled as it has become these days) but in having a decent dramatic background (Raph and Leo debate over the mutagen).

Sumac
01-21-2018, 05:11 PM
Finally has watched OOTS.
Didn't expect anything and...was pleasantly surprised!
It's basically feature length Live Action version of the Original Cartoon. And, as a fan of OT, I liked it.

Yeah, it's a dumb nonsense, with no interesting arcs or character development, but it's the closets thing to OT I had seen in years (Turtles Forever doesn't count and neither 2k12 did it for me), so it's stroke all the right spots.

Pros:
- action scenes were awesome (especially one on the plane and later);
- Turtles interactions are on point;
- Turtles are in spotlight, unlike first movie;
- no attempts at convoluted plot, everything is straightforward;
- Bebop and Rocksteady were awesome!
- Krang was awesome!
- "Puzzledrome" was an interesting idea;
- it was nice to see Turtles being recognized as a heroes, would have been interesting how it would've worked in the next movie (if there was one);

Cons:
- Turtles designs were still ugly as ****;
- Casey Jones and Shredder were useless in the movie, though Casey's fight with Foots was good;
- Mirage purists gonna cry bloody tears (and I don't care about them :P);

I wouldn't it even say that it is a guilty pleasure, because, production qualities are very good and movie wears on its sleeve what it is, so no delusions and deceptions. It's dumb and fun comedy action about giant turtles fighting rhino,'hog and a brain in a robot.
If someone expected heavy drama from it...LOL...

So, overall, it's much better than the first movie, though I dunno, where to put in my list of TMNT movies, since it is very different from any of them. Maybe the closest to the Secret of the Ooze.

It's not the movie I would like to see to be made, but as it is, I like it.

Leonardo_thebest
01-21-2018, 06:25 PM
If the reboot again, they need to listen to the fans, use rubber suits and follow the path set out by the first one. I think it's fair to say Return to New York would be the best story to reboot with.

IndigoErth
01-21-2018, 06:37 PM
with no interesting arcs or character development
Closest to an arc imo, and honestly some of what I like more about this one, is what's going on with Leo throughout it. It's so subtle that anyone who doesn't have a tendency to pay much attention to him might not notice much other than just taking him as acting jerky on a couple of occasions if they don't really pick up on why.

The rest of it and the first film are so superficial and on the surface, I'm almost inclined to believed they only accidentally managed a subtle focus on his fear of failure, the safety and togetherness of his family and fear of failing them and rat dad's expectations on him, etc.

Leonardo_thebest
01-21-2018, 07:11 PM
What's the deal with the hashtags? OOTS was bad, but that's not even accurate. Reads like somebody is bating others into a fight.

Sumac
01-22-2018, 05:05 PM
Closest to an arc imo, and honestly some of what I like more about this one, is what's going on with Leo throughout it. It's so subtle that anyone who doesn't have a tendency to pay much attention to him might not notice much other than just taking him as acting jerky on a couple of occasions if they don't really pick up on why.
It didn't feel really important in the movie. More like a side-story or something.

If the reboot again, they need to listen to the fans, use rubber suits and follow the path set out by the first one. I think it's fair to say Return to New York would be the best story to reboot with.
You are really not a bright person, are you?
Who in their right mind will use suits instead of CGI in 201x?

CGI is much more versatile and gives much more freedom with creation of characters. Just because you are fapping on the first movie it doesn't mean that it is golden standard on the technical level.

If anything, Turtles in the Bay-movies were much more expressive and dynamic than in the old. The only thing that was ruining them - was their ugly and stupid design, but that is not problem of the technology, it is problem of designers.

What's the deal with the hashtags? OOTS was bad, but that's not even accurate. Reads like somebody is bating others into a fight.
Like you do?

IndigoErth
01-22-2018, 07:32 PM
It didn't feel really important in the movie. More like a side-story or something.
Alright, I will give you that given that it does fizzle out and doesn't culminate in much. Other than Raph smashing the mutagen vial and a short, too easy Krang fight that forgot to emphasize an attempt at better team work. (With no learning how between events.)

He's still what makes me like the film better. :) (And absolutely yes to the CGI lending itself to better expressiveness. There are certainly places that just make me laugh due to the look on their faces, esp when subtle, that suits will just never be able to get across.)



Though the team work issue is kinda dumb though since they did okay in the first... Guess they forgot how.



edit: Just gonna toss this link here. Little bit of old concept footage/animation (prior to filming) from the river scene included in the beginning of the video.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/01/23/zack-snyders-justice-league-concept-footage-different-steppenwol/

I guess it's lucky for Leo that they decided to skip him running smack into that rock. Ouch.

Galactus
01-25-2018, 04:36 PM
You are really not a bright person, are you?
Who in their right mind will use suits instead of CGI in 201x?

CGI is much more versatile and gives much more freedom with creation of characters. Just because you are fapping on the first movie it doesn't mean that it is golden standard on the technical level.

If anything, Turtles in the Bay-movies were much more expressive and dynamic than in the old. The only thing that was ruining them - was their ugly and stupid design, but that is not problem of the technology, it is problem of designers.

See I think that's just a knee jerk reaction people give to the suggestion to go back to practical effects but it doesn't stack up.

There's one big reason it's highly unlikely we'll see full motion capture with facial recognition again and that's how expensive it is. Both Platinum Dunes movies had a decent if unspectacular budget for movies of their type but we know for a fact it wasn't enough to give good screen time for four cgi protagonists in the first movie. Even with the heavy lifting of the 3D modelling being done with the first and giving them more screen time in the sequel they still cut quite a few corners.

Paramount wouldn't give enough money to properly animate the turtles when TMNT was a brand on the rise again there's no way they or any other studio is going to commit any serious money after the failure of Out Of The Shadows and TMNT in general being seen as a tainted brand because of it. Sadly I think any new movie is unlikely in the near future but if it does happen I can see rubber suits being the only forward.

To be clear I don't think anyone is suggesting purely going back to rubber suits and animatronics. I mean Chris Evans wears a Captain America suit to play that character but they still use cgi when he performs big stunts or fight moves impossible for a real actor. CGI would be used for big stunts, correcting for when the suits look noticeably rubbery and help animate the faces.