PDA

View Full Version : Do you care about "seeing yourself" on screen?


Prowler
08-07-2017, 02:10 PM
In the last few years people have talked a lot about representation in the media and how people want to "see themselves" on screen, meaning they want a decent amount of "heroes" representing their race/nationality/religion/sexual orientation/etc. in the media.

Do you, personally, care about that?

I really don't tbh. If that was the case, I'd only watch TV show productions from my own country... and no thanks. TV is garbage in my country for the most part. :lol:. Also, I don't think a character needs to be "similar" to me in order for me to like it or relate to it. I mean, some of my favourite fictional characters ever are from Japanese video games and animation/comics. They probably never ate many of the dishes I have nor have I eaten much Japanese food(haven't even tried Sushi...) but that doesn't mean I cannot relate to them in other ways. :P

What about you? Do you actually care about "being represented on screen"?

Cryomancer
08-07-2017, 02:38 PM
Not really. It's fun when a character creator in a video game lets me play as a big fat guy though, since it usually clashes with the setting / other characters.

But yeah I'll watch stuff starring whoever from wherever, I'm not watching a movie for a vanity trip or whatever. For kids it's probably a little more important that they can sometimes see someone like them doing important/good stuff though.

Vegita-San
08-07-2017, 02:41 PM
i'd like to see more john candy's and john goodmans representing fat people on screen and less mcarthy's and farleys....but other than that, I could care less who's on screen. just make the damn movie naturally and be good.

Cure
08-07-2017, 02:41 PM
Nope. I'm not so insecure that I need that. I can relate to characters based on their ideas and personality and what they go through, not what they look like.

Prowler
08-07-2017, 02:44 PM
Not really. It's fun when a character creator in a video game lets me play as a big fat guy though, since it usually clashes with the setting / other characters.

But yeah I'll watch stuff starring whoever from wherever, I'm not watching a movie for a vanity trip or whatever. For kids it's probably a little more important that they can sometimes see someone like them doing important/good stuff though.
Personally, it never mattered to me as a kid either. Nor did it seem to matter to most kids I knew back then. I mean, everyone loved DBZ, Pokémon and such. And my favourite Street Fighter character from day one was Ryu. I played that game for the first time ever when i was like 5 years old. I like him because the hadouken was cool.

Also, this being a TMNT website, is proof that we can relate to different people than us, even to those of different species. I mean, it's not like I've ever stopped on my tracks one day and wondered "Hmmm... I wonder what the Turtles would look like if they were human".

Candy Kappa
08-07-2017, 02:49 PM
I see myself everyday on TV since it's usually turned off and I can see my reflection :P

plastroncafe
08-07-2017, 02:50 PM
Me personally? Nah, not really.
More variety of people in my media? Oh hell yes.

Allio
08-07-2017, 03:05 PM
No. I'm face blind so I am literally blind to idea of something like this. So for me I have to relate to a character other than what they look like.

heck the two character I relate to the most are

Tomoyo from Card Captor Sakura. The idea of being so in love with someone so much but in the end you know you have to let them go...That there is nothing wrong with it and that you can be happy when someone else is happy. It believe it is something that everyone can understand.

and

Cerise Hood from Ever After High. The thought of having to wear a mask and put up a front to make sure you are just you, it's a hard thing for many to deal with.

MsMarvelDuckie
08-07-2017, 03:06 PM
Funny I thought that was why we had imaginations. If we want to pretend/relate to being some superhero, we can imagine being like Superman and flying around stopping disasters, not trying to imagine HE was more like US. Where's the fun in that anyway? Heroes and villains are supposed to be larger than life, more of the paragons of their race/gender/etc. Not average Joes like everyone we meet- because a protagonist in a comic, movie or animation is by their very nature of being the "hero" of the story someone who is ABOVE and BEYOND the average schmuck. That's why we aspire to be like them in the first place! It's why we dream.

Allio
08-07-2017, 03:10 PM
sadly we live in a time and place that for people to "relate" a character will have to be literally "humanized" and by that they would often be of the same color/gender/sexuality/etc.

For us of technodrome, it shouldn't be that common afterall we had to learn to related to four mutant turtles.

plastroncafe
08-07-2017, 03:12 PM
So...if this stuff doesn't matter, why do people get so bent out of shape when Sam Jackson is cast as Nick Fury?

MsMarvelDuckie
08-07-2017, 03:14 PM
Because they never read the Ultimate Avengers universe comics where Fury was MODELED on him??!! Just a guess. I thought it was cool.

Allio
08-07-2017, 03:16 PM
I'm more than sure that was a minority. Especially when Ultimate Nick was literally SAM jackson in design. Though I can understand from a perspective since it did seem forced since the redesign to Ultimate Nick Fury was for in case they could get Sam as Nick in the live action movies. Plus the majority of those people at the time didn't even know who Nick was as against "nerd" wasn't really the hip thing to be about.

It's like changing Sadako into Samara. No one gave a **** save for just a couple few.

Prowler
08-07-2017, 03:18 PM
So...if this stuff doesn't matter, why do people get so bent out of shape when Sam Jackson is cast as Nick Fury?
I don't think people care that a show has a black guy or two, but when they try to change an established character's identity just for the sake of being PC or something. I't not just a matter of turning a white dude black. When Shredder was meant to be white in the Bay films people were pissed as well.

Want characters of other races and such in the media? Fine, but don't change already established ones. That's not doing anyone good. It only screams "LOOK, WE ARE TURNING THIS GUY BLACK/BROWN/GAY/WTV JUST TO PROVE WE'RE NOT RACIST!".

That being said, I have no idea who Nick Fury is nor what the context beyond that change is. So therefore, I couldn't care less if they make Nick Fury a different race or not. I don't follow whatever franchise he belongs to.

Powder
08-07-2017, 03:28 PM
I'm a white male so this has never been a concern of mine. Assuming I were the same me in a different body, I'm not sure I'd care either way. I don't connect with the masses for a long list of reasons that goes far beyond superficial stuff.

I don't like when established characters are changed, I can say that much. White-washing being the worst offense, generally speaking.

N1ttuVhGTDw

Vegita-San
08-07-2017, 03:30 PM
Funny I thought that was why we had imaginations. If we want to pretend/relate to being some superhero, we can imagine being like Superman and flying around stopping disasters, not trying to imagine HE was more like US. Where's the fun in that anyway? Heroes and villains are supposed to be larger than life, more of the paragons of their race/gender/etc. Not average Joes like everyone we meet- because a protagonist in a comic, movie or animation is by their very nature of being the "hero" of the story someone who is ABOVE and BEYOND the average schmuck. That's why we aspire to be like them in the first place! It's why we dream.

careful, you make too much sense. that's not welcome in some parts :D:thumbsup:

ToTheNines
08-07-2017, 03:37 PM
So...if this stuff doesn't matter, why do people get so bent out of shape when Sam Jackson is cast as Nick Fury?

Did anyone seriously complain?

plastroncafe
08-07-2017, 03:43 PM
Did anyone seriously complain?

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/nick_fury/editorial-why-all-the-hate-on-sam-jackson-as-nick-fury-a26081

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/3pmonv/did_people_bitch_about_samuel_l_jackson_playing/

Admittedly no where near as much as people did when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/dec/17/white-supremacists-boycott-thor

http://comicsalliance.com/racists-thor-idris-ebla-racism/

I remember there being a whole lot of confusion when Ryan Reynolds was announced as the lead in Green Lantern, because for a whole lot of people John Stewart was the GL they knew, and not Hal Jordan.

Representation matters.
I think it's cool that there's way more variety in female characters now than there was when I was a kid.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
08-07-2017, 03:44 PM
Did anyone seriously complain?

Well, people seriously complained about Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm.

Allio
08-07-2017, 03:45 PM
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/nick_fury/editorial-why-all-the-hate-on-sam-jackson-as-nick-fury-a26081

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/3pmonv/did_people_bitch_about_samuel_l_jackson_playing/

Admittedly no where near as much as people did when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/dec/17/white-supremacists-boycott-thor

http://comicsalliance.com/racists-thor-idris-ebla-racism/

to be fair, there was more bitching about Thor's actor

plastroncafe
08-07-2017, 03:48 PM
to be fair, there was more bitching about Thor's actor

I don't remember there being any controversy regarding Chris Hemsworth.
(But then, I really didn't care much for Thor before the movie came out)
Got links?

TurtleWA
08-07-2017, 04:02 PM
Yeah I care and can understand why others might care. I have become very accustomed to the leading actor sharing several characteristics with myself. I'm trying to imagine if that was not true. I would miss it. Yeah the story could still be enjoyable but there's that something a little extra when the character somewhat mirrors yourself. I can more easily imagine myself as Brad Pitt, Michael J Fox, or Harrison Ford than Denzel Washington, Eddie Murphy, or Will Smith. It's easy for me to say it doesn't really matter because I already have it.

CyberCubed
08-07-2017, 04:03 PM
I'm your average white guy with brown hair, so everyone looks like me on TV.

Allio
08-07-2017, 04:08 PM
It's your typical Tumblr bs, nothing special.

Since the whole face blind thing I have to rely on connecting with characters by heart2heart.

And as a kid I realized that when it came to **** like power rangers and things I always connected to the black guy (like the silver/green beetleborg and the green lost galaxy ranger)


Though I will admit as a kid, I alway tend to hate the fat character (though I was chunky) because they tended to be unfunny and was the "I could go for a snack" kind of Bs

Turo602
08-07-2017, 08:25 PM
I don't give a crap about seeing "myself" on screen or being forcefully represented. We shouldn't have to force our culture, sexuality, or skin color into someone else's creative vision. Spider-Man is always going to be a teenage white kid with brown hair to me just like Johnny Storm is always going to be a white guy with blonde hair. That's who the characters are underneath their costumes and that's what I expect to see. Just like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are 5 foot anthropomorphic turtles, not 7 foot hulking beasts or aliens. Changing a character's race for the sake of diversity is just stupid. The characters are already diverse in their personality, powers, morals, costume, and overall characterization. That's what I connect with, appreciate, and relate to. Why change who they are at all as if we're all so goddamn insecure about who we are that the only thing that validates us is seeing characters like Batman or Superman with our skin color or other characteristics. If that were true, then every character should be the color of the rainbow because no matter what, you're gonna alienate someone.

GoldMutant
08-07-2017, 08:30 PM
If I had any success, I'd rather write a book about my journey in life.

Movie wise, my appearance is a common person, no point in filming that.

Powder
08-07-2017, 08:47 PM
If I had any success, I'd rather write a book about my journey in life or maybe a documentary as I'd like to test being a filmmaker (if it becomes my career).

Otherwise, I don't need a movie justifying my existence.

You gotta read, my man.

GoldMutant
08-07-2017, 08:52 PM
You gotta read, my man.

Bloody hell, I've sucked at reading as of late here. Oops. :lol:

So, the threads about race/gender topics? Nevermind on my earlier post, definitely do not need a movie then.

Sumac
08-07-2017, 10:19 PM
No.

I am not egotistical enough to believe, that fictional character should be EXACTLY like me on the screen, comic book and whatnot. I relate to characters through their actions and ideas and not their appearances and whatnot.
The whole notion that movie can be bad because it does not have character that is exactly like me is laughable.

Of course, there is a problem with representation of minorities in the Hollywood movies, as well as "whitewashing" problem, but judging movies solely on basis, whether they have characters who are exactly like me or not, is stupid.

Unless it's a story about said minorities, of course, otherwise creators should not concern themselves with representing every single type of human being possible in their works, because, in the modern day and age, there always will be some groups who would feel themselves "underrepresented".

CyberCubed
08-07-2017, 10:27 PM
I also find it odd that people act like white people have a problem with this. I watch a lot of Jackie Chan or other Asian films in general. In those movies, 99.9% of the actors are Asian most of the time. Do I need a white guy in those films to relate to in order to enjoy them? Of course not.

I watch all Asian movies regularly and I don't care that there isn't some white guy in the films at all. So I don't get this logic.

Sumac
08-07-2017, 10:51 PM
Because, "white culture soft power" something...

Like, Hollywood movies, somehow, represent the whole world (??), and it's on them to add diversity, no matter, the type of story.

DestronMirage22
08-07-2017, 11:14 PM
As far as physically "seeing myself" on screen, I don't care. The people in the movies and shows I watch can look like whatever.

What I love is being able to relate to characters experiences and in their outlook on life. Which is why I like the characters from Haganai and Hachiman Hikigaya so much. A lot of what those characters have been through and the way they interact with others is almost exactly how things have gone with me. Seeing their struggles and knowing the way they think makes me relate to them that much more, and that lets me enjoy the shows more than if thr characters had been different.

Wildcat
08-07-2017, 11:31 PM
No. I'm Hispanic but I don't care if movies or tv shows have a bunch of Hispanic characters or not. I'll watch anything or anyone as long as I personally like it.

I think the whole Hollywood is racist thing is stupid. Like when people complain about the Oscars. If you think it's whitewashed you need to look up how the Oscars work. It's too complicated to be discriminatory.

Which is surprising that some celebrities complain. They surely know how it works. It's not a room of people cherry picking thier favorite stuff.

Movies and TV go with the most popular or experienced actors. It's only logical.

Candy Kappa
08-08-2017, 03:46 AM
i want more representation in movies and shows, seeing stories from different perspectives when it comes to ethnicity, religious beliefs, orientation and more accurate historical time periods. Not just by performance but also in writing.

I want more then just what's "the same old" for me.

Spike Spiegel
08-08-2017, 09:17 AM
As a black dude myself, I like seeing diversity in media, but I can't stand tokenism, whitewashing, or the idea that adding a person of ________ race/gender/sexuality/ethnicity makes something better by default.

If the story isn't good, or the characters are underwritten, or the piece is poorly produced, adding a few brown/black/yellow faces or a gay love scene won't change any of that.

Someone asked LeVar Burton this type of question at a Star Trek TNG panel in 2013 and Brent Spiner had a rather original response.

QnpLOfR-omM

Allio
08-08-2017, 10:58 AM
I think there is a difference between "relating to someone that looks like you" and "diversity" it's like the square=rectangle thing.

Like I think I agree we need more diversity because of relations, but relating to someone exists beyond just skin

sdp
08-08-2017, 11:37 AM
I love diverse casts since it felt like "yeah, we're all in this together" so I actually miss the 90s multicultural casts we used to get on stuff like The Magic Schoolbus, Captain Planet, hell even the Burger King kids club cast.

Having an all black or all white cast is also fine; Boy Meets World and Fresh Prince of Bel Air didn't need to "diversify" anything.

I don't think many people complained about Nick Fury being Sam Jackson, it was the only casting most of were willing to accept even if it was Ultimate Fury and not 616 Fury.

What I usually have a huge problem with is when an established character is changed sex or gender for the sake of "diversity". Just make a new god damn character, we love a character the way they are and changing it for diversity is dumb. If it's a d-lister who was mostly a background character it can be successful since that character wasn't really established yet but taking an iconic character and changing him for the sake of Social Justice is beyond retarded.

I think anyone would rather have a new awesome character created in their race/sex than changing an established one. if anything it feels more like an insult, "since we can't come up with a good black/female character let's just make this one that race/sex". I'll take Spawn over Black Kid Flash any day.

When creating a new character you also have to be careful, some characters that are only created for diversity in recent years are lame and no one wants them like the most recent Marvel stuff being done that failed. Look at Dwayne McDuffie, he mentioned this exact thing and created Static Shock to better represent.

Changing an established character can work if done right, look at Jon Stewart Green Lantern and Miles Morales Spider-Man. Everyone including black people are hating Cyborg being in Justice League, he doesn't deserve that spot. Martian Manhunter or Green Lantern could've been the black man in the team if they wanted more diversity and that would've worked.

The double standards are also annoying, changing a white man to another color/sex is fine but if it's the opposite then it's praised. Me personally, I get pissed when either case is done, at least I'm consistent.

There will always be exceptions though, when an actor or race change just feel "right". I was fine with black Kingpin in Daredevil or darkening the skin of Hunk in Voltron. Also if an actor has brown skin and so does the fictional character, even if they aren't from the exact nationality from the fictional story it doesn't matter. I want the better actor who resembles more the fictional character.

The whole "you see yourself as the character so you need ____ representation" is for the most part only used to further advance a political ideology. In Mexico people love Captain America, Cosplay as all their anime characters, they don't give two ***** about latino Blue Beetle (who is awesome btw) and they got incredibly pissed off that Sombrero wearing Super Mario got removed from the cover of Mario Odyssey because of SJW pressure of cultural appropriation since they just don't give a crap about it.

Fiction; Serious business.

TL;DR: I don't want brown Princess Allura but I also don't want White Shredder. I'd rather have X-Men's Storm as is.

plastroncafe
08-08-2017, 12:17 PM
Hooray for false equivalencies!

chrisdude
08-08-2017, 12:24 PM
Isn't this issue entirely about kids?
I don't care if people in movies look like me, but if kids grow up seeing every character who accomplishes something important, or acts heroically is a white male, it's got to influence their perception of the world. I do think it is primarily a parent's responsibility to teach a child how the world works. But when every black character in a superhero movie is a sidekick, like Rhodey, Heimdall, or Lucius Fox, and every female is a love interest for the hero, that has to have SOME influence on an eight-year-old's outlook. Again, not a movie's responsibly, but if consumers want to see it, then that becomes what's marketable.

IndigoErth
08-08-2017, 01:00 PM
Myself? That's not going to be a very interesting character, so no and probably never will. lol I'm not those characters, so it's hard to really see myself in them, and relatability goes deeper than just surface stuff like gender or race.

I haven't seen Wonder Woman yet, but I still bet I'd continue to see much more of myself in aspects of Leo, a fictional male mutant Turtle, than I would in Wonder Woman for simply being a woman and played by one. Although a bit of girl power is nice, even if it isn't mine.


Diversity is kind of a different matter though, no matter if I see myself in it or not; it's nice to see a little more effort on that front so long it is doesn't seem forced.

Really, it may be best summed up as PD Donnie once said, "Let me be the badass for once."

Even the somewhat more pacifist geek of the group wants to get to be the badass hero once in a while. It doesn't always need to be Leo and Raph focused on every moment as the biggest ass kickers (or other central character traits in a film/show/whatever). Just like it doesn't always have to be guys or white people.



Really, the things that bug me more go a bit deeper and are more the things that there hasn't been much attempt to buck the trend.

Such as... I'd rather the "cool kids" become a bit more diverse. Let some be on the heftier side, or god forbid... let one wear glasses with ZERO geek/nerd/awkward/weird/smart one personality. Teach kids these days that glasses actually mean NOTHING outside of the fact that your vision sucks and it's a necessary accessory, that's it. But even today's cartoons and kid shows continue this crap, showing kids that glasses mean something else, and not good.

(edit: Donnie getting glasses "because geek" is annoying. But if one of the other three were seen with reading glasses on at home, that would have been kind of adorable.)

Also, how atheists are generally done in a negative light by various media or, at the very least, there is always that twinge of snideness against them.

Allio
08-08-2017, 01:07 PM
Isn't this issue entirely about kids?
I don't care if people in movies look like me, but if kids grow up seeing every character who accomplishes something important, or acts heroically is a white male, it's got to influence their perception of the world. I do think it is primarily a parent's responsibility to teach a child how the world works. But when every black character in a superhero movie is a sidekick, like Rhodey, Heimdall, or Lucius Fox, and every female is a love interest for the hero, that has to have SOME influence on an eight-year-old's outlook. Again, not a movie's responsibly, but if consumers want to see it, then that becomes what's marketable.

As mentioned before as a kid I tended to lean towards black characters rather than white ones

Spike Spiegel
08-08-2017, 03:00 PM
Isn't this issue entirely about kids?
I don't care if people in movies look like me, but if kids grow up seeing every character who accomplishes something important, or acts heroically is a white male, it's got to influence their perception of the world. I do think it is primarily a parent's responsibility to teach a child how the world works. But when every black character in a superhero movie is a sidekick, like Rhodey, Heimdall, or Lucius Fox, and every female is a love interest for the hero, that has to have SOME influence on an eight-year-old's outlook. Again, not a movie's responsibly, but if consumers want to see it, then that becomes what's marketable.

TV and films can reflect some inherent aspects of the culture they are produced in, but a little media literacy can go a long way. It's also a responsible parent's job to teach their child that the stuff they see on the screen isn't real, and that stereotypes are just that--stereotypes.

That said, I'd be lying if I said seeing Geordi LaForge, John Stewart/Green Lantern, and Static wasn't meaningful to me as a kid.