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Tetsu Deinonychus
08-26-2017, 11:16 AM
There's always so much talk about how vastly different FW TMNT is from the original Mirage comics.

And, it's true. The 80s show mostly used the comic as loose inspiration rather than attempt a true adaptation. To be fair, the comic had only got to about issue 11 by that point so there wasn't that much Mirage around to adapt yet. They kinda had to come up with their own take on it.

But, that doesn't mean that the two versions had nothing in common aside from the main characters and core concept (which is a lot to have in common no matter how different the rest of it is). So, for challenge and fun let's rack our brains and see what parallels we can find, particularly ones that the other versions don't share.

--Random aliens. Both FW and Mirage had a tendency fall back on the formula "Troublesome alien randomly shows up. Chaos ensues". The other versions don't seem to do this as much, but it's one of the major trademarks, and complaints, of these two versions.

--Splinter and April's Ages. I started a whole thread on this awhile back, but it bears repeating. Mirage and FW both feature a distinctly adult April, and a distinctly elderly Splinter. Since 4Kids, it's become a trend for each version to make them younger than the last, most likely to make Splinter more of a "Dad" and April more of a "peer". But, in Mirage and FW, Splinter was old and April was more of a "cool aunt" than a "sister figure" or "potential girlfriend".

--Pop-Culture Satire. It got away from it awfully fast, but lets not forget that Early Mirage was partially a parody of comics trends of the time (teenagers, mutants, ninja), complete with an origin that spoofs Daredevil.

Likewise, FW spoofed the other cartoons of the time. On GI-Joe and Transformers Cobra and the Decepticons would make some pretty stupid evil plans and take them dead seriously. On FW TMNT Krang and Shredder would come up with plans just as stupid and then turn to the audience and make a joke about it.

Not to mention, all the sci-fi and horror movie references in both versions, though I guess the Nick show does a lot of that too.

--"80's Roughness". Okay this one's kind of intangible, and your milage may vary, but I think the main thing they have in common is that they're both obviously products of the same time-period. And, that imparts a certain aesthetic to them both.

The 4Kids show may have been much closer in characterization and plot, but it's obviously a product of the 2000s with it's clean streamlined art style and digital ink and paint (and how much more modern, Nick's CGI?). Compare that to FW with it's cheap outsourced 80s TV animation and I think you have a stronger parallel to the "rough" look of the early Mirage books when Eastman and Laird were trying to find their groove.

There's also a level of "gross" in the backgrounds with both Mirage and FW. There was grime and detail in those sewers while other versions show the sewers as strangely "clean" (fitting streamlined modern art styles).

Anyway, that what I came up with. Any others?

MsMarvelDuckie
08-26-2017, 11:40 AM
How about bizarre concepts as a standard plot device? Mirage had the worm-Shredder, while FW had the pizza monsters and a few others. There were "Utroms" of sorts in both; FW also took the "alien dinosaurs" aka Triceratons- actually they had quite a few of the same alien races- and played with them. There are a lot more similarities than some people admit. Even the fact that Casey is a bit nuts in both versions (okay, a LOT nuts in FW) is a commonality.

neatoman
08-26-2017, 11:41 AM
Uhm, well... The Turtles, Splinter, Shredder April, Baxter, the Mousers, Casey, Rat King, Leatherhead, Usagi and the Triceratons are characters in both. There's a character named Metalhead and Krang is more or less an Utrom. #1-7 and Raphael #1 were arguably loosely adapted. While the Neautrinos themselves don't appear to be based on anything in particular, their cars certainly seems to be. The Technodrome does seem like an overhauled version of TCRI (probably more toy friendly). Oh, and the Transmat does appear towards the end.

Beyond some parallels that seem unintentional, that's about it. The only other direct similarity I can see is the "anything can happen" spirit.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CYmM_PdCm3E/Vw9Sxz8xqQI/AAAAAAAAAFI/E9q3ib33qJYKewRqQlzKAcB4_b17RsdvACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO026_w.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ep8oNpjexj4/U73rkCRxVUI/AAAAAAAADPI/EchC0Tcu0Gg/s1600/post-59-1291924110.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R7uszXQJMyY/Vw9WFwcFXaI/AAAAAAAAAw0/CEJ96yB1_eg_k5UAuj6rP__FOPYaMBkDwCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO007.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-season-10-dregg-vortex-teleporter.jpg?w=1200

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-26-2017, 11:47 AM
Teleporters and portals are a basic elements of science fiction, and is generally associated with Star Trek.

neatoman
08-26-2017, 12:11 PM
Teleporters and portals are a basic elements of science fiction, and is generally associated with Star Trek.

Take a look at the designs.

CyberCubed
08-26-2017, 01:31 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but did the early Mirage issues ever call the ooze, "Mutagen?" From what I remember it was the original cartoon that coined the name "Mutagen" and then Mirage later on adopted that name. It's used frequently especially in the later Tales issues in the 2004 run.

Andrew NDB
08-26-2017, 04:06 PM
And, it's true. The 80s show mostly used the comic as loose inspiration rather than attempt a true adaptation.

I guess so... but FW bears as much resemblance to Mirage TMNT as that "Let's put Billy Crystal and a bunch of 80s comedians in costumes" TMNT 1 movie pitch.

* Mirage: Four Turtles raised by Splinter for the sole purpose of assassinating Oroku Saki. They do so, and murder a ton of Foot in the process. Eventually they break the circle of bloody vengeance and free themselves of it. They also go on intergalactic adventures, travels through time, and more, and do a lot of soul searching in the process. Splinter has a heart attack and dies reaching for the milk. Eventually they all grow apart and die alone.

* Fred Wolf: Four Turtles are raised by Splinter to be heroes (I guess?) for mankind, then occasionally thwart the wacky plans of an interdimensional brain who is Oroku Saki's boss. They never quite succeed. Mostly they putz around randomly encountering scores of goofy mutants, eat a lot of pizza, tell a lot of jokes, and don't have any character arcs or growth at all from the beginning of the show all the way to the end.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-26-2017, 04:24 PM
* Fred Wolf: Four Turtles are raised by Splinter to be heroes (I guess?) for mankind, then occasionally thwart the wacky plans of an interdimensional brain who is Oroku Saki's boss. They never quite succeed. Mostly they putz around randomly encountering scores of goofy mutants, eat a lot of pizza, tell a lot of jokes, and don't have any character arcs or growth at all from the beginning of the show all the way to the end.

Splinter in the MWS series originally trained the turtles to defend themselves, and track down the person responsible for Splinter's mutations and fore that person to turn Splinter back into human again (they had no idea of Oroku Saki being behind at the time).

But later, it became much more to stop Shredder.

snake
08-26-2017, 05:18 PM
I think the Pop Culture Parody/Commentary aspect should be capitalized on more. There's some real potential there.

mrmaczaps
08-26-2017, 08:04 PM
I guess so... but FW bears as much resemblance to Mirage TMNT as that "Let's put Billy Crystal and a bunch of 80s comedians in costumes" TMNT 1 movie pitch.

* Mirage: Four Turtles raised by Splinter for the sole purpose of assassinating Oroku Saki. They do so, and murder a ton of Foot in the process. Eventually they break the circle of bloody vengeance and free themselves of it. They also go on intergalactic adventures, travels through time, and more, and do a lot of soul searching in the process. Splinter has a heart attack and dies reaching for the milk. Eventually they all grow apart and die alone.

* Fred Wolf: Four Turtles are raised by Splinter to be heroes (I guess?) for mankind, then occasionally thwart the wacky plans of an interdimensional brain who is Oroku Saki's boss. They never quite succeed. Mostly they putz around randomly encountering scores of goofy mutants, eat a lot of pizza, tell a lot of jokes, and don't have any character arcs or growth at all from the beginning of the show all the way to the end.

Spot on as always.... :lol:

Papenbrook
08-27-2017, 06:46 AM
Splinter has a heart attack and dies reaching for the milk. Eventually they all grow apart and die alone.

Wait, seriously?! :o

Did this happen figuratively or literally?

ToTheNines
08-27-2017, 06:53 AM
Yeah... like 15 years ago.

neatoman
08-27-2017, 07:30 AM
Wait, seriously?! :o

Did this happen figuratively or literally?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9503anPihvY/VLwIQQz3FeI/AAAAAAAAPIA/LfGiMdQmOFI/s1600/10-4.png

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
08-27-2017, 12:47 PM
Splinter isn't there in the "Once upon a Time Machine" future, which takes place 35 years later so it makes sense.

DestronMirage22
08-27-2017, 10:55 PM
Wait, seriously?! :o

Did this happen figuratively or literally?

Yeah, it all happened literally. Splinter's death, the guys separating, and them all dieing alone, it all happend.

You're pretty late to the party dude. :lol:

DisKosh
08-28-2017, 03:30 AM
* Mirage: Four Turtles raised by Splinter for the sole purpose of assassinating Oroku Saki. They do so, and murder a ton of Foot in the process. Eventually they break the circle of bloody vengeance and free themselves of it. They also go on intergalactic adventures, travels through time, and more, and do a lot of soul searching in the process. Splinter has a heart attack and dies reaching for the milk. Eventually they all grow apart and die alone.

I don't recall them growing apart and dying alone? Have I missed something?

Cryomancer
08-28-2017, 05:23 AM
It's heavily implied via pretty much any story that takes place in the future.

Powder
08-28-2017, 01:26 PM
Hell, to say it was only implied is an understatement. There are issues that arguably feature Leonardo & Donatello's deaths.

Diskosh, this article should give you all the context you need- http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/07/mysterious-future-era-of-mirage.html

pferreira
08-31-2017, 01:08 PM
* Fred Wolf: Four Turtles are raised by Splinter to be heroes (I guess?) for mankind, then occasionally thwart the wacky plans of an interdimensional brain who is Oroku Saki's boss. They never quite succeed. Mostly they putz around randomly encountering scores of goofy mutants, eat a lot of pizza, tell a lot of jokes, and don't have any character arcs or growth at all from the beginning of the show all the way to the end.And boy was it fun! :D

To be fair, the comic had only got to about issue 11 by that point so there wasn't that much Mirage around to adapt yet. They kinda had to come up with their own take on it.Ssshhh, you're not allowed to say stuff like that. David Wise is apparently a hack okay. :lol:

Tetsu Deinonychus
09-09-2017, 12:17 PM
Ssshhh, you're not allowed to say stuff like that. David Wise is apparently a hack okay. :lol:
Not saying he isn't, but hack or not if you're given a comic that has less than 12 issues and features on panel deaths, blood, angst, and adult language, and you are instructed to develop it into an ongoing children's show (by 80s standards where "kid's show" meant "safe" and "dumbed-down") that they can write as many episodes as they want without running out of material, and also has to promote a toy line, you're not exactly going to end up with a direct panel to screen translation.

Still, the differences are not the point of this thread. These forums are bursting at the seams with discussion about how different the two most iconic versions of TMNT are. At this point, it's just redundant (and too easy) to keep talking about it.

The similarities, on the other hand, seem like fresh unexplored territory, and the fact that you really have to look for them (I think) makes them more interesting. Here's a few more...

-"Turtle's Fight/Die With Honor!" This battlecry is featured a lot in both FW and early Mirage (obviously FW didn't use the "Die" variation), but you really don't see it much in other versions.

-A lot of Mirage's "Early Installment Weirdness" became part of FW's design. The FW Turtles seem based more on the way the Turtles looked in the early issues (rounder, shorter, short strands on the bandanas) rather than how their look evolved in later issues (especially when artists like Lawson and Dooney started influencing their look), and of course there's April's jumpsuit that she only wore in one issue that became her iconic look through all of FW (because it reminded Wise of Fujiko somehow). Not to mention Casey's shorter "hockey-mullet" is based on his first Mirage appearance, before they gave him longer hair for all his other Mirage appearances.

-I think that extends to the "Tone" too. Aside from the gory first issue, Mirage didn't get all that "dark" until issue#9 with a return to gritty Martial arts crime/ content, and continued into the Leonardo special when Shredder came back and the feud with the Foot Clan became central to the ongoing plot.

Issue's #2-#8 (especially #8, I'm actually surprised Renet and Savanti never made it onto the show) are noticeably lighter than that, and I think that's where FW got it's initial tone from. Obviously, Mirage can gets a lot more mature than FW, and FW gets a lot sillier than Mirage (unless you count some of the lesser "guest issues"), but I don't think there's that big a gap between the more "serious" episodes of FW and the "lighter" issues of Mirage. Not every FW/Mirage comparison is City At War vs. Mr. Ogg is what I'm saying.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-09-2017, 04:02 PM
Issue's #2-#8 (especially #8, I'm actually surprised Renet and Savanti never made it onto the show).

No need, and I'm not surprised. A series playing on various science fiction from between the 19th century and late-1980's does it better fixing time travel using technological time machines.

Sumac
09-10-2017, 06:06 AM
* Fred Wolf: Four Turtles are raised by Splinter to be heroes (I guess?) for mankind, then occasionally thwart the wacky plans of an interdimensional brain who is Oroku Saki's boss. They never quite succeed. Mostly they putz around randomly encountering scores of goofy mutants, eat a lot of pizza, tell a lot of jokes, and don't have any character arcs or growth at all from the beginning of the show all the way to the end.
Yet, people love it and remember more than Mirage comics.:tlol:

BTW, what you said about growth is not true - final seasons of the FW series, portray Turtles in more serious and mature light and in the final episode, Splinter graduates them from students.

neatoman
09-10-2017, 06:15 AM
Yet, people love it and remember more than Mirage comics.:tlol:
They don't really remember it and saying that people still love it is misleading, most people are only have vague recollections and remember liking it even if they don't know why.


BTW, what you said about growth is not true - final seasons of the FW series, portray Turtles in more serious and mature light and in the final episode, Splinter graduates them from students.

That's kinda ********, they just gave the show a different art style and toned down the so called comedy, nothing important changed.

ToTheNines
09-10-2017, 07:36 AM
They don't really remember it and saying that people still love it is misleading, most people are only have vague recollections and remember liking it even if they don't know why.

Yeah, most people I've ran into really only remember the live-action movies, the toys and the video games.

I've never met anyone not on the internet that had a favorite episode/season, or really anything to say about the actual show at all.

CyberCubed
09-10-2017, 02:17 PM
Because for most people TMNT is just a passing fad from their childhood. Same thing you see with people talking about Power Rangers or Pokemon, etc.

A lot of people never stuck with these franchises and just watched the first few years of it when they were kids and moved on and never revisited it. You see this for any long running franchise or kid fad. That's why they barely remember anything about it but the basics like the characters. They couldn't tell you any story details or bring up any episodes because they literally don't know or remember anything about it.

Sumac
09-11-2017, 09:29 AM
They don't really remember it and saying that people still love it is misleading, most people are only have vague recollections and remember liking it even if they don't know why.
OK, still more people recognize TMNT 80-s, rather than any other version. Which means...basically the same thing.
Is it OK, with you now? :tlol:

That's kinda ********, they just gave the show a different art style and toned down the so called comedy, nothing important changed.
Yeah, except style, atmosphere, type of storytelling...all those things are nothing important, lol.

Some people in their zealousy are really want to rewrite history. Gladly history doesn't give a single flying **** about such people.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-11-2017, 11:35 AM
Here's the comparison about ridiculous with Fred Wolf and Mirage on a foundational level;

Fred Wolf -A goofy rhino and warthog, and alien brain-like creature,violent masked vigilante Casey hones, all kinds of weird and wacky aliens, comedic time travel, a mutant gator named leatherhead, and guest star usagi yojimbo.

Mirage-A female lead who's a goofy sketch brought to life, violent masked vigilante Casey Jones, a race of alien brain like creatures, all kinds of weird and wacky aliens, comedic time travel, a mutant gator named leatherhead, and guest star Usagi Yojimbo

So as you can see, the OT concepts on paper aren't just goofy because of presentation in a terrible 30-year old comedy-based cartoon, but Fred Wolf is totally ridiculous when it's core concepts are put side by side with the much more serious Mirage comics....

....

...wait a minute...

neatoman
09-11-2017, 11:47 AM
OK, still more people recognize TMNT 80-s, rather than any other version. Which means...basically the same thing.
Is it OK, with you now? :tlol:
Well yeah, because it means they don't really care, they're apathetic to it.


Yeah, except style, atmosphere, type of storytelling...all those things are nothing important, lol.

There was no real development though, the show just kind of stopped being a comedy. It was still about fighting a series incompetent threats.

Some people in their zealousy are really want to rewrite history. Gladly history doesn't give a single flying **** about such people.

I'm not trying to rewrite history, I watched those episodes like half a year ago. It's just the same show trying to be edgier from before in a very superficial way, that's all the Red Sky episodes are.

Powder
09-11-2017, 03:09 PM
Some people in their zealousy are really want to rewrite history.

Like David Wise.

pferreira
09-14-2017, 11:47 AM
That's kinda ********, they just gave the show a different art style and toned down the so called comedy, nothing important changed.I call BS on that. New villains with different motives? Different motives for the TMNT? A different universe created means different storytelling? I mean I know you have some hatred of the FW series but you don't really do yourself any favours when you say that type of stuff.

I'm not trying to rewrite history, I watched those episodes like half a year ago. It's just the same show trying to be edgier from before in a very superficial way, that's all the Red Sky episodes are.If the Red Sky era succeeds in being as edgy as Season 1 then it was a success. Looking at your posts I really doubt you have watched the 80s cartoon at all. If you did it comes across like you watched it with your eyes open but you hands over your ears.

Like David Wise.I said in another post that David feels very attached to the show, he was the main guy behind it for nine years. Considering how the network treated him I give him a brake when it comes to being a revisionist. If he comes across as territorial and rude regarding his work I put the blame on Harlan Ellison.

Here's the comparison about ridiculous with Fred Wolf and Mirage on a foundational level;

Fred Wolf -A goofy rhino and warthog, and alien brain-like creature,violent masked vigilante Casey hones, all kinds of weird and wacky aliens, comedic time travel, a mutant gator named leatherhead, and guest star usagi yojimbo.

Mirage-A female lead who's a goofy sketch brought to life, violent masked vigilante Casey Jones, a race of alien brain like creatures, all kinds of weird and wacky aliens, comedic time travel, a mutant gator named leatherhead, and guest star Usagi Yojimbo

So as you can see, the OT concepts on paper aren't just goofy because of presentation in a terrible 30-year old comedy-based cartoon, but Fred Wolf is totally ridiculous when it's core concepts are put side by side with the much more serious Mirage comics....

....

...wait a minute...What I find really funny about this is the FW haters inability to get all this. I mean if you're a real fan this should all be kind of obvious right?

Tetsu Deinonychus
09-16-2017, 10:58 AM
I said in another post that David feels very attached to the show, he was the main guy behind it for nine years.
Not judging him for that (it's very understandable) but...

Considering how the network treated him I give him a brake when it comes to being a revisionist.
You can. I don't.

Anyway, Season 1's storyline has some Mirage parallels. There's a fight with a street gang, Baxter and the Mousers, the Turtles save April, and they tell her their origin story, the Foot becomes an "Army of crime" under Shredder, Splinter goes missing and the Turtles break into a high-tech alien facility to rescue him, April's apartment gets destroyed.

You can kinda see how Mirage at the time (filtered through the limitations of 80s kids shows) can get reshaped into that.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-16-2017, 03:21 PM
I prefer the turtles having to rescue Splinter from the bad guys instead of from the Utroms. Utroms can be introduced in other ways.

Tetsu Deinonychus
09-20-2017, 12:20 PM
I can see that. It's not like Splinter has to be missing to give them a reason to break into TCRI, after all.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
09-20-2017, 05:36 PM
I can see that. It's not like Splinter has to be missing to give them a reason to break into TCRI, after all.

You can have Shredder learning about the Utroms (maybe through Baxter Stockman), trying to break in to steal mutagen to mutate Bebop and Rocksteady. The turtles would then learn about it, and go after Shredder into TCRI to stop him.

pferreira
09-21-2017, 10:28 AM
You can kinda see how Mirage at the time (filtered through the limitations of 80s kids shows) can get reshaped into that.Oh yeah definitely. I don't think any less of the show for doing that. It worked for me.

Sumac
09-21-2017, 11:24 AM
Well yeah, because it means they don't really care, they're apathetic to it.
Why?

There was no real development though, the show just kind of stopped being a comedy. It was still about fighting a series incompetent threats.
It was a change.

I'm not trying to rewrite history, I watched those episodes like half a year ago. It's just the same show trying to be edgier from before in a very superficial way, that's all the Red Sky episodes are.
Nope.
Calling it's the same show...is very odd choice.

Tetsu Deinonychus
10-07-2017, 10:29 AM
Just thought of another example of FW adapting Mirage's "Early Installment Weirdness". I mentioned Casey's appearance, but it also applies to his personality.

In Casey's first appearance, he was just plain crazy, he was inspired by old cop-shows and action movies (the tragic origin about his Dad's store was a retcon that came much later) and he was ready to kill people for picking pockets and stealing hub-caps.

When he appears again (with his more iconic long hair), he's more of a classic "tough-guy" archetype, he's more "rounded" and he gets developed/deconstructed further in stories like "Shades of Grey".

FW Casey is a straight up exaggeration of his first Mirage appearance, complete with a "Clint Eastwood" voice to emphasize his action-movie obsession.

neatoman
10-07-2017, 11:21 AM
Just thought of another example of FW adapting Mirage's "Early Installment Weirdness". I mentioned Casey's appearance, but it also applies to his personality.

In Casey's first appearance, he was just plain crazy, he was inspired by old cop-shows and action movies (the tragic origin about his Dad's store was a retcon that came much later) and he was ready to kill people for picking pockets and stealing hub-caps.

When he appears again (with his more iconic long hair), he's more of a classic "tough-guy" archetype, he's more "rounded" and he gets developed/deconstructed further in stories like "Shades of Grey".

FW Casey is a straight up exaggeration of his first Mirage appearance, complete with a "Clint Eastwood" voice to emphasize his action-movie obsession.

I agree with what you're saying but as a character in and from the comic, wouldn't Casey qualify regardless?

Tetsu Deinonychus
10-07-2017, 11:58 AM
Yeah, I guess he would. :lol: