PDA

View Full Version : "Learning it from a book"


neatoman
10-01-2017, 07:33 AM
So while becoming martial arts master from a book is kinda dumb it's not as offensive in retrospect, the most offensive aspect isn't so much that Splinter did it but rather that he did because he thought it was a good parenting guide. Sure, a book alone isn't going to make a master but it's at least going to get you started on the basics, that's what an educational book is for.

Alone this explaination for "How does a rat know martial arts?" isn't very satisfying, but I think it could be combined with the original explaination to justify the perceived flaw of "Rats can't learn from seeing someone train!". I think "He saw Hamato Yoshi train, then supplemented that with teachning tools like books", might be the the most satisfying compromise between keeping the original origin and alleviating the questionable logic.

That way you don't have introduce reincarnation if you don't like it, nor do have to jump through hoops explaining how the same exact event caused a man to transform into a rat and turtles into humanoids.

ToTheNines
10-01-2017, 08:36 AM
Yeah, the book wasn't as offensive as the lack of Hamato Yoshi/actual reason for hating Shredder was.

Panda_Kahn_fan
10-01-2017, 10:22 AM
You are NOT going to learn to be a martial arts master from a how to book. It's extremely stupid, but equally as stupid as the rat learning martial arts from watching a martial arts practitioner from his cage.

Either make Yoshi become splinter, have splinter be Yoshi's reincarnation, or have splinter mutate with Yoshi alive, learn martial arts from Yoshi, then shredder kills Yoshi

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan
10-01-2017, 11:18 AM
A Splinter that starts as a rad should never be able to learn reading alone.

ToTheNines
10-01-2017, 12:08 PM
or have splinter mutate with yoshi alive, learn martial arts from yoshi, then shredder kills yoshi

I've been saying this for years. SO much story potential in having Yoshi train Splinter and showing them waging a two-man war on the Foot for x years before he dies and Splinter happens upon the turtles.

I hope a future version does this.

IndigoErth
10-01-2017, 01:26 PM
Had to go with "awful." As much as I'd gladly give it "the worst," there could have been a worse path, like, say, "I learned it in a vision/dream." Book method is just really really lame. (Though cutting Yoshi out is The Worst.)

I mean, at that point he probably can't even read in any language. (Or shouldn't be able to.) Hard to believe you're going to translate legit skills through a few basic diagram images.



Never was a big fan of him learning through mimicry either and prefer the Yoshi is Splinter route. But Yoshi knowing Splinter as a mutant would be an intersting take on it.

neatoman
10-01-2017, 03:01 PM
You are NOT going to learn to be a martial arts master from a how to book. It's extremely stupid, but equally as to as the rat learning martial arts from watching a martial arts practitioner from his cage.

Either make Yoshi become splinter, have splinter be yoshi's reincarnation, or have splinter mutate with yoshi alive, learn martial arts from yoshi, then shredder kills yoshi

Honestly, I think the "Yoshi mutates into Splinter" thing seems to operate on convoluted logic that's not worth the effort, it's pretty much pointless in light of the reincarnation origin.

Andrew NDB
10-01-2017, 03:04 PM
I've been saying this for years. SO much story potential in having Yoshi train Splinter and showing them waging a two-man war on the Foot for x years before he dies and Splinter happens upon the turtles.

I hope a future version does this.

That's not bad, man.

Prowler
10-01-2017, 03:55 PM
That's not bad, man.
Yeah, I too think it'd be interesting, but how would a small rat like Splinter be able to fight? Would he get mutated before the Turtles? If so how?

IndigoErth
10-01-2017, 04:41 PM
Maybe a second ill fated run-in with the same ones behind his own mutation... the Turtles end up innocent victims (or purposeful victims?) and, seeing these innocent kids who didn't ask for this, he sympathizes with their situation and takes them under his wing. Esp as they have no one else in the world to look after them.

ToTheNines
10-01-2017, 04:56 PM
That's not bad, man.

Yeah, I too think it'd be interesting, but how would a small rat like Splinter be able to fight? Would he get mutated before the Turtles? If so how?

You would have to bring in the Utroms way early. Perhaps Yoshi has a day job, but moon lights as a Guardian. After Shredder tracks him down and kills Shen, he's forced to hide/live in the TCRI building. From there, Splinter is either accidentally mutated or Yoshi goes rouge and mutates him himself after the Utroms refuse to aid him in his revenge on Saki.

Then years later after Yoshi is dead, you can keep the TCRI truck accident origin, or have Splinter break into TCRI and steal mutagen so as to recruit soldiers into his vendetta, just as he was by Yoshi.

Definitely makes their connection stronger and makes sense of Splinter's mastery of ninjutsu.

Andrew NDB
10-01-2017, 09:01 PM
It's like Stick and Stone, before they ever knew there'd be a Daredevil. Or 4 Daredevils, in this case.

* disclaimer: I really can't pretend to know much about Daredevil's actual mythology beyond the cliff notes.

Utrommaniac
10-01-2017, 10:15 PM
You would have to bring in the Utroms way early. Perhaps Yoshi has a day job, but moon lights as a Guardian. After Shredder tracks him down and kills Shen, he's forced to hide/live in the TCRI building. From there, Splinter is either accidentally mutated or Yoshi goes rouge and mutates him himself after the Utroms refuse to aid him in his revenge on Saki.

Then years later after Yoshi is dead, you can keep the TCRI truck accident origin, or have Splinter break into TCRI and steal mutagen so as to recruit soldiers into his vendetta, just as he was by Yoshi.

That...is actually kind of brilliant. Especially the idea of Yoshi deliberately mutating himself. Though he'd have to know he could be mutated, which means the Utroms are already experimenting with mutation. So why would the Utroms be doing deliberately mutating things at TCRI? And why would they not save one of their guardians from injury? He wouldn't exactly be truly replaceable, as they'd have to put a lot of energy into finding someone who can keep their existence a secret.

Though, keeping in Mirage fashion, but fixing things up a little, the mutation is still accidental, but they give Yoshi shelter where Saki can't find him, in the TCRI basement. It's just a question of how the turtles get involved. Maybe they're a result of the Utroms trying to figure out what happened to Yoshi, using Leatherhead and the turtles to test it. When they realize the five reptiles become sapient, they give the turtles to Yoshi as companions and keep Leatherhead with them for safety. Maybe there can be a nod to the Mondo Gecko episode of the FW series and have Michelangelo as the only one remembering there was a fifth animal that got mutated.

MsMarvelDuckie
10-01-2017, 10:51 PM
Oddly enough I did something along those lines in my Some Other World tale, where Yoshi deliberately mutated himself (and later the turtles) as a means of getting revenge on Saki after Saki forced him out of the Foot because he(Yoshi) was turning it into a gang of thugs and murderers- though it was a Mirror-verse type of story where Splinter and the turtles are actually the villains. Saki gave him a choice of honorable death or life in the shape of the monster he truly was, and Yoshi took the mutagen and ran. Shredder was allies with Krang who was a scientist and inventor in the story. Splinter wanted to use the turtles as his own personal assassins to kill Saki, among other things. Really need to finish that one....

DestronMirage22
10-02-2017, 12:18 AM
In film that was already terrible and considered one of the worst iterations to date, the whole “learned martial arts from a book” thing somehow managed to stand out if only for how utterly stupid the idea is.

What bonehead thought it was a good idea? And who was actually stupid enough to go along with it? That’s what I want to know.

DevilSpooky
10-02-2017, 12:39 AM
In film that was already terrible and considered one of the worst iterations to date, the whole “learned martial arts from a book” thing somehow managed to stand out if only for how utterly stupid the idea is.

What bonehead thought it was a good idea? And who was actually stupid enough to go along with it? That’s what I want to know.

Truth be told it was done before on the franchise, that's how Karai learned in the IDW comics, at least as the basis of her training... :trolleye:

Candy Kappa
10-02-2017, 03:41 AM
Truth be told it was done before on the franchise, that's how Karai learned in the IDW comics, at least as the basis of her training... :trolleye:

That's completely different though. You're comparing it between a homeless person that have no prior connections to Martial Arts, Shinobi no Jutsu or Japanese culture in general, finds a book in another language with super simplified artworks.

Compared to Karai who's ancestry lies in a Ninja Clan with the scrolls and probably still someone that holds the oral traditions and the funds to hire professionals to recreate whatever techniques the Foot had or supplement with other schools techniques to fill in the gaps.

And she had the ghost of Shredder to help her, plus iirc Karai's dad Yori was the one who made the Clan into corrupt business men instead of hired pajamas mercenaries, so it's not that far off that some Clan members still knew the "old way" since what, the Foot Clan wasn't ninjas for 20-30 odd years?

Utrommaniac
10-02-2017, 04:28 AM
And most importantly, Karai was a human who could more fully comprehend what she was looking at, and was able to seek out other forms of martial arts for mentorship.

Chris
10-02-2017, 05:57 AM
Yeah it was a bad idea made worse by the fact it was done because they skipped over the entire Yoshi/Saki feud because god forbid character motivations/character development and plot take away screen time from action and explosions.

ToTheNines
10-02-2017, 05:58 AM
It's like Stick and Stone, before they ever knew there'd be a Daredevil. Or 4 Daredevils, in this case.

* disclaimer: I really can't pretend to know much about Daredevil's actual mythology beyond the cliff notes.

Right. The Chaste and The Hand had been at it for centuries, if not longer.

While the Foot has a long history, the Oroku-Hamato feud is always relatively young. It would be cool to add an extra layer to that. Also makes sense of Splinter having a Japanese accent, and such reverence for Yoshi as a father figure.

That...is actually kind of brilliant. Especially the idea of Yoshi deliberately mutating himself. Though he'd have to know he could be mutated, which means the Utroms are already experimenting with mutation. So why would the Utroms be doing deliberately mutating things at TCRI? And why would they not save one of their guardians from injury? He wouldn't exactly be truly replaceable, as they'd have to put a lot of energy into finding someone who can keep their existence a secret.

Though, keeping in Mirage fashion, but fixing things up a little, the mutation is still accidental, but they give Yoshi shelter where Saki can't find him, in the TCRI basement. It's just a question of how the turtles get involved. Maybe they're a result of the Utroms trying to figure out what happened to Yoshi, using Leatherhead and the turtles to test it. When they realize the five reptiles become sapient, they give the turtles to Yoshi as companions and keep Leatherhead with them for safety. Maybe there can be a nod to the Mondo Gecko episode of the FW series and have Michelangelo as the only one remembering there was a fifth animal that got mutated.

I'm talking about Yoshi mutating his pet rat, not himself. But you're right, the Utroms wouldn't be indiscriminately mutating stuff, or leaving ooze just laying about. But Yoshi would definitely start asking questions and getting ideas after meeting Leatherhead.

newfan
10-02-2017, 06:31 AM
I didn't have to know the TMNT stories well to find the book thing a bit weak... and not only that, but just one book. I remember watching the movie and thinking 'what?' suddenly Splinters skills (though of course he has them) lost some credibility.

The idea mentioned by some about Yoshi training the mutated rat is certainly something they could try.

Utrommaniac
10-02-2017, 08:10 AM
I didn't even think about Leatherhead being a mutation that Yoshi witnessed. I was thinking he was a mutation that happened after Yoshi's/Splinter's - depending on which direction gets followed.

Maybe they were mutated in the sewer/basement with Yoshi, because when the reptile minds developed humanoid sapience, they had the duckling phenomenon and attached themselves to the nearest thing around. Which the Utroms determined to be Yoshi/Splinter since they wanted him to have companions. Perhaps they would have learned this from mutating Leatherhead earlier than the turtles, hoping he'd be the companion, but discovering he attached himself to Dr. Xeinos.

DevilSpooky
10-02-2017, 05:02 PM
That's completely different though. You're comparing it between a homeless person that have no prior connections to Martial Arts, Shinobi no Jutsu or Japanese culture in general, finds a book in another language with super simplified artworks.

Compared to Karai who's ancestry lies in a Ninja Clan with the scrolls and probably still someone that holds the oral traditions and the funds to hire professionals to recreate whatever techniques the Foot had or supplement with other schools techniques to fill in the gaps.

And she had the ghost of Shredder to help her, plus iirc Karai's dad Yori was the one who made the Clan into corrupt business men instead of hired pajamas mercenaries, so it's not that far off that some Clan members still knew the "old way" since what, the Foot Clan wasn't ninjas for 20-30 odd years?

Hey I never said it was the same, just that the ideia has been used before in the franchise, I even said she used the book as a basis, I never compared them both. :tgrumble:

Prowler
10-03-2017, 04:24 PM
Hey I never said it was the same, just that the ideia has been used before in the franchise, I even said she used the book as a basis, I never compared them both. :tgrumble:
Esse autocorrect :tgrin:

DevilSpooky
10-03-2017, 05:06 PM
Esse autocorrect :tgrin:

Actually I don't have one, that was 100% caused by my Dyslexia... :tgrumble:

Prowler
10-03-2017, 05:11 PM
Actually I don't have one, that was 100% caused by my Dyslexia... :tgrumble:
Oh. My bad then. Dyslexia sounds like a pain.

DevilSpooky
10-04-2017, 12:38 AM
Oh. My bad then. Dyslexia sounds like a pain.

I don't suffer from it... I think :trolleye: but the older I get I find myself doing that more and more, both in writing and speaking, I even forget some words :tgrumble: guess I'm getting too old for this sh... erm, you know... :trolleye:

myconius
11-03-2017, 11:32 PM
i'd have much preferred it if Splinter had instead found a cook book, and taught the Turtles to be masters of the Culinary Arts.

Utrommaniac
11-03-2017, 11:35 PM
That actually sounds amazing :lol: . Like if the 90's Soccer Moms took their "no violence" fit to a whole new extreme. Though, that would probably mean far greater nightmares than those spawned from post-musical tour...

Or in the opposite extreme, something pretty cool came out of it, if not obscure.

Panda_Kahn_fan
11-03-2017, 11:44 PM
You know, the stupid part is the Yoshi backstory could have been worked into the 2014 film SO EASILY. During the part where April is talkign to sacks, just have him recite the Story of Yoshi and his four sons. Nothing extra to film, just one monologue, ending with 'legends says the five will be reborn someday'. THAT'S IT. No other need to dwell on it, but it was just toooo hard to stick in there! :roll:

Roseangelo
11-04-2017, 11:39 PM
As someone who has been taking karate five days a week for almost six years, I cannot stress enough how impossible it is to learn any level of martial arts from a book.

I browse YouTube a lot looking at training videos, and here's my go-to video that demonstrates someone who is attempting to learn karate through a DVD series:

1YEbvQN3xdE

Nothing about this is good at all. All of these video courses are basically stealing money from people.

Even training with an instructor doesn't guarantee results. We get transfer students from other dojos in the area who don't even come close to meeting the standards for the rank they are wearing and require a lot of catching up.

Having a good instructor is an absolute requirement to have any chance of becoming a martial artist. And a book is not a good instructor.

Utrommaniac
11-04-2017, 11:52 PM
Wow, I'm not even trained in martial arts and even I can tell that's not good.

You get the golden trophy for explaining why that won't even work in the slightest - heck, why even Splinter learning by mimicking Yoshi wouldn't work. He'd either have to be Yoshi or been actually taught by Yoshi in some wacky sense (which I've been inspired to explore, actually).

sdp
11-04-2017, 11:53 PM
I don't know Rose you're opening a can of worms if we want to decide what is legit martial arts and what's not. I'd argue most modern American dojos are scams for money. It's hard to find a legit school and I can see some people totally being able to learn from a video and even a book, hell one of my sensei's had this old ass book that fell apart that he would look at whenever he would forget what went on in a Kata, of course he actually learned from a teacher and only used it as a resource.


That video though, I feel so bad for him but if he really does know the Katas he would only need a few classes with a teacher to teach him how to do the them correctly, the hardest part for the most part is remembering the moves, perfectioning the stances is also hard especially if you have bad habits but you can learn that faster I would think.

Then again I feel most Katas are trash and should only be learned by kids as a way to teach them discipline, anyone older than 15 should be learning things you can actually use in combat.



But as far as the thread itself, that's the only reason I prefer Hamato Yoshi as a human, the rat learning by itself is dumb.

Roseangelo
11-05-2017, 12:33 AM
I don't know Rose you're opening a can of worms if we want to decide what is legit martial arts and what's not. I'd argue most modern American dojos are scams for money. It's hard to find a legit school and I can see some people totally being able to learn from a video and even a book, hell one of my sensei's had this old ass book that fell apart that he would look at whenever he would forget what went on in a Kata, of course he actually learned from a teacher and only used it as a resource.

Well, I'm not going to get into the wormhole of "legit" martial arts. But basic techniques like front/round/side/back kicks, as well as basic punches, should be pretty transferable between styles, and good technique vs. bad technique is going to be pretty recognizable.

You are right that someone who already has a background in martial arts can use a book or a video as a reference to be able to pick up something new, or remember something that's been forgotten. Just last week I was learning some black belt level techniques that are brand new to me and my instructor had to go dig out his references for them, because it's been years since any students have gotten to the level to be learning these.

Then again I feel most Katas are trash and should only be learned by kids as a way to teach them discipline, anyone older than 15 should be learning things you can actually use in combat.

I love forms/katas, and respectfully disagree with everyone who finds them to be worthless. I have yet to see a student whose ability in forms didn't accurately reflect their ability in all other skills. Sloppy forms = sloppy everything else. But I also believe learning martial arts isn't all about learning combat. I know there are a lot of junk schools out there, and I feel really lucky to have found my way to one that isn't.

But as far as the thread itself, that's the only reason I prefer Hamato Yoshi as a human, the rat learning by itself is dumb.

Big YES.

sdp
11-05-2017, 12:58 AM
I can't stand doing Katas as an adult, I appreciate learning them as a kid though. I agree with being sloppy translating to everything else and the need of good form but that's not necessarily covered in katas, so we just disagree with Katas and that some people could theoretically learn by themselves.

I'm glad you found a good school, I switch styles frequently so I constantly run across plenty of bad ones, but not to say there aren't good ones.

Don't you use an app for your karate as well? I remember seeing many of your tweets mentioning something about that and was always curious.

Roseangelo
11-05-2017, 12:39 PM
Don't you use an app for your karate as well? I remember seeing many of your tweets mentioning something about that and was always curious.

The only app I use is a general exercise tracking app. I just like keeping track of things, and it also comes in handy because my work gives a discount on insurance if you can prove you live an “active lifestyle.”