Comicsgate

[Leonardo_thebest]

Yeah, I know I know, this thread is "stirring the pot", only no, it's not. I'm shocked at what I'm reading on Twitter.
Guess I've been out of the loop.

I've been reading tweets from both sides, and I'm stunned by the ferocity and hatred. Creators and "fans" are at each others throats, with black lists and secret groups and mantras like #movetheneedle.

What happened? How did this happen? WHY is this happening?
Trying to get a better handle on where all the hate stems from, maybe people can talk out their positions here, without getting into blowouts.

The comics community is in trouble. BIG trouble.

[plastroncafe]

Like all things ending in the suffix -gate, it's just unbridled entitlement.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Is it? I don't understand the hate. i just don't. Where does all of this come from? Why are guys like Vegital-san and Sumac so angry? They seem to be part of a growing wave of hatred for women, and the LGBTQ community.

Guy's? Real talk. Why so much anger? I really don't think you need a dick to play ghostbuster, do you?
It don't make sense.

[ZariusTwo]

Peopel write crappy SJW comics. Customers get mad. Creators tell customers they're pixels that don't matter. Customers revolt.

Customers are always right in the end.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Peopel write crappy SJW comics. Customers get mad. Creators tell customers they're pixels that don't matter. Customers revolt.

Customers are always right in the end.

But see, that doesn't explain anything to me. "People write crappy SJW comics". What does that even mean? Why is it crappy?

I really don't get it. Can you give an example of why you think a comic is crappy?

[Spike Spiegel]

All I care about is having decent comics to read every month, and the only Marvel series I followed last year was unceremoniously cancelled in the wake of all this. The LCS in my neighborhood also closed due to the sales slump.

Why do people feel such a

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/79/ff/0b/79ff0b75207e1882a311e5499f60a41d--invader-zim-do-want.jpg

to politicize every aspect of the comics industry today?

[Candy Kappa]

Superman beat up corrupt people, punched Hitler and kicked KKK's ass. Captain America punched Hitler, abandoned his America moniker and became Nomad when he was disillusioned with the US government. Kirby was ready to fistfight bigots who took offense when he drew Cap kicking Nazi ass. Black Panther writer was nagged by editorial to include more people which resulted into the Black Panther vs. the Klan arc. Most of Gerber's work.

Superhero comics have always been about politics and especially about social justice. And that bother bigots who now have a more vocal medium to whine on compared to a pre-twitter age where hatemail would either be trashed or get a snark Stan Lee reply in the letter column.

[plastroncafe]

Then there's the entire run of the X-Men and their various spin-off titles.

[Leonardo_thebest]

All I care about is having decent comics to read every month, and the only Marvel series I followed last year was unceremoniously cancelled in the wake of all this. The LCS in my neighborhood also closed due to the sales slump.

Why do people feel such a

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/79/ff/0b/79ff0b75207e1882a311e5499f60a41d--invader-zim-do-want.jpg

EDIT: LOL The answers above mine were way better.


What was the book that was cancelled?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Or the Batman comics, which tell us that the rich are better than us at everything and we should just punch mentally ill people well.

[Spike Spiegel]

I understand the arguments about the political basis behind some of those classic arcs and such, but those were competently told stories by creators who valued their craft as a means of direct cultural discourse. They believed in the intellect of their audience and the possibility of persuading them towards a more tolerant attitude, rather than talking down to them about what terrible racists/sexists/homophobes they are.

Also, there's a big difference between a snarky letters page reply and the pure autism that manifests on people's Twitter feeds--for both creators and the fans.

[TurtleWA]

What happened?

People have opinions. Nothing new.

[oldmanwinters]

Sometimes, I'm thankful just being a dude who buys some comics and nothing more.

EDIT:
Well... I passed on the most recent Ghostbusters mini-series inspired by the new movie in part because some of the creative team was linked to this debacle (https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2017/09/marvel-dc-and-other-sjw-comic-writers-plot-to-harass-critic-at-convention/40051/). And also due to the fact that I just don't care for the new movie characters.

[plastroncafe]

Also, there's a big difference between a snarky letters page reply and the pure autism that manifests on people's Twitter feeds--for both creators and the fans.

Agreed.
Which is why I used the term entitled. It covers both the fans who believe they're owed a certain kind of story, as well as the authors/creators who believe we should be thankful to be gifted a particular kind of story.

That said some of the things I've seen levied at creators reads more like they were penned by her:
https://media.giphy.com/media/rpRmBGR3xaAZa/giphy.gif

[dl316bh]

I assume we're talking about Marvel? They're generally not crappy, people just paint them that way because they don't like what's going on for other reasons I won't mention. The problem, I think, is Marvel deciding it would be a totally rad idea to replace f***in' everybody at near the same time.

To run it down, at the moment, the list of the replaced are, off the top of my head, so it's not complete: Iron Man, Thor, Ghost Rider (though, to be fair, Ghost Rider changes hosts like we change underwear), Hulk, Wolverine and until recently Captain America. Marvel's always had the catchphrase of being the "House of Ideas" but in the past two years it's felt like they're the house of "one idea". The replacement storyline. I like that in spurts - it's aged and long as hell, but I still get a kick out of Knightfall and Superior Spider-Man is probably in my top five favorite Spider-Man runs/series - but not all at once. They don't have the excuse of "legacy" and "passing down" DC used to use.

Though I've always liked Amadeus Cho and enjoy his antics as Hulk, from what I've read, more than a lot of Banners, so that was always fine with me.

There's also a dearth of big name writers there, these days. A lot of the big names they had propping themselves up for years and directing the universe - Fraction, Hickman, Brubaker, etc. - packed bags and left for creator owned. Hell, Bendis just left. They've got Jason Aaron and their stalwart mid range names like Pak and Waid and that's about it right now. So interest's kinda waned.

Creators and "fans" are at each others throats
Yeah, that's never getting any better. Barriers of interaction are gone, so anyone upset about a story can just go yell at the person responsible on social media. You get enough of them and then, surprise, the creators get sick of fans. Happens in plenty of other forms of media too, from music to books to TV. It's a downside to social media, but that genie's not going back into the bottle.

Not to say some creators can't just be @$$holes, though, but you either take it and enjoy their work or leave it.

Superman beat up corrupt people, punched Hitler and kicked KKK's ass.
Supermans very first issue was literally him roughing up corrupt senators trying to start a war in South Africa to force a confession, coming to the aid of a woman getting abused by her husband, rescuing Lois Lane from a gangster she rebuffed who didn't take it well, and so on.

Captain America and Hitler punchin' was a couple of Jewish mens reaction to a war America wasn't even in yet and seemed like it wanted to stay out of.

I'd agree with you and go so far as to say it's in the very DNA of comics.

[IndigoErth]

I really don't think you need a dick to play ghostbuster, do you?
It don't make sense.
The most sense I've been able to figure is that "fun things" for the most part are "supposed" be a "boys only" club... :roll: If it's fun and/or cool, it inherently belongs to males (or so some people would like to believe); of which girls will ruin by being any part of it. (At least not in a way that isn't pre-approved and titillating.) :trolleye:

That said though, I'd rather new inclusions (awesome ones) vs gender swaps. (i.e. Next generation of Ghostbusters vs reboot.)

[Spike Spiegel]

The thing is, I've never seen any of that Twitter/4Chan level of toxicity in any of the actual comic shops I've visited in either of the two cities I've lived in over the past six years. I've even met owners and clerks with neon dyed hair and hipster glasses who looked like your stereotypical "Tumblr in Action" types, and they were always civil to me.

If someone picks up an issue of their favorite comic and they find they don't like the script, the art, or the creative direction, guess what? They can drop it from their pull list until it improves or they find something better. Caterwauling and harassing someone on Twitter doesn't stop terrible stories from getting published. Refusing to purchase or read those stories does that.

Those "Diversity & Comics" or "Capn Cummings" types of people who have made a career out of b*tching about "muh SJW Marvel" on Twitter and YouTube are still buying all these books they hate in order to show how bad they are in front of a webcam. There's a certain irony there...

Where's the passion? Where's the joy? These characters may serve an allegorical purpose from time to time, but at their core superhero stories are supposed to represent escapism and fun. Reading "God Loves, Man Kills" isn't supposed to be the same experience as reading "Night" by Elie Wiesel.

Maybe the echo chambers of the Internet have imbued both creators and fans with a false sense of self-importance. While both sides of this so called debate whinge about free speech and tolerance, it's hurting and shrinking the industry as a whole.

[dl316bh]

That said though, I'd rather new inclusions (awesome ones) vs gender swaps. (i.e. Next generation of Ghostbusters vs reboot.)
DC seems to be trying that right now - and it's the form I prefer for a multitude of reasons - but I also understand why the other way is employed, because historically it can be really tough to get people attached to new characters no matter how well they're written.

Maybe the echo chambers of the Internet have imbued both creators and fans with a false sense of self-importance. While both sides of this so called debate whinge about free speech and tolerance, it's hurting and shrinking the industry as a whole.
The industry has been shrinking for a long time now, it's not really a new phenomenon based around recent attitudes. Mark Waid will even tell you he was ringing the alarm bells about that in the late 90's. They've yet to really figure out a solution to the problem. Digital will likely help a lot in the future, but growth has been too slow for it to take over as the primary platform any time soon or as a way to grow the business. That one's going to take time.

[plastroncafe]

The industry has been shrinking for a long time now, it's not really a new phenomenon based around recent attitudes. Mark Waid will even tell you he was ringing the alarm bells about that in the late 90's. They've yet to really figure out a solution to the problem. Digital will likely help a lot in the future, but growth has been too slow for it to take over as the primary platform any time soon or as a way to grow the business. That one's going to take time.

Exactly.
There were tricks the industry used in the past that aren't working the same way they did before, because the market has changed. The fanbase has changed.

All of those things are good things, but the growing pains are very real and very noticeable.

[Sumac]

Is it? I don't understand the hate. i just don't. Where does all of this come from? Why are guys like Vegital-san and Sumac so angry? They seem to be part of a growing wave of hatred for women, and the LGBTQ community.
Sorry, barking at the wrong tree, little flea.
I don't hate women and LGBT, only small subsets of the latter who are attacking women and generally act like religious zealots.

As for comic books - receipt for success and to calm down fragile "progressives": create new characters, instead of replacing old one for "token minority of the year" and find good writers to write compelling POC / LGBT characters, not ham-fisted parodies with horrible dialogue and the like.

[Leonardo_thebest]

And we were doing so well.

[Spike Spiegel]

And we were doing so well.

Hey man, you started the thread. :lol:

I left Twitter for the most part about 6 months ago and stopped following the geek news sites. So I haven't really been privy to this until the last week or so.

Instead of reading about the comics industry, I've just been (gasp!) reading comics. I particularly like the current Mister Miracle series.

[plastroncafe]

I left Twitter for the most part about 6 months ago and stopped following the geek news sites. So I haven't really been privy to this until the last week or so.

Instead of reading about the comics industry, I've just been (gasp!) reading comics. I particularly like the current Mister Miracle series.

Same. Though I do admit to keeping a very well curated twitter.
The thing is, this isn't a particularly new song though. I heard it when they made Jaime Reyes the new Blue Beetle. I'm sure there was a rendition of it in 1974, when they replaced the X-Men with Different X-Men.

The tune ain't new, and it's not like it's been anything other than mediocre.

[Spike Spiegel]

It's not like this is a particularly new song though. I heard it when they made Jaime Reyes the new Blue Beetle. I'm sure they sang it 1974, when they replaced the X-Men with Different X-Men.

Apparently, there was a lot of hate mail sent to the Marvel offices back in '82 when Spider-Man got his black costume, which, ironically, was the result of a fan sending Marvel his idea (http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2009/12/1982-real-story-behind-spider-mans.html) for it by mail.

[plastroncafe]

Apparently, there was a lot of hate mail sent to the Marvel offices back in '82 when Spider-Man got his black costume, which, ironically, was the result of a fan sending Marvel his idea (http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2009/12/1982-real-story-behind-spider-mans.html) for it by mail.

https://i.imgur.com/ghlMzhk.jpg

[Leonardo_thebest]

Hey man, you started the thread. :lol:


I know, I KNOW hahaha.


Instead of reading about the comics industry, I've just been (gasp!) reading comics. I particularly like the current Mister Miracle series.

It's not bad, there were some great books this year. I'm loving Maestros right now. It's a lot of fun.

So, I thought it was worth looking over. These are the names on the blacklist, the ones that regressives are having a problem with.

Andy Khouri
Alanna Smith
Heather Antos
Tom Brevoort
Ales Kot
Aubrey Sitterson
B. Clay Moore
Dan Slott
Gabby Rivera
Gail Simone
Jennifer de Guzman
Kelly Sue DeConnick
Kurt Busiek
Larry Hama
Magdalene Vissagio
Mark Waid
Matt Fraction
Max Bemis
Nick Spencer
Sina Grace
Ta-Nehisi Coates
Tim Doyle
Zachary Davisson
Andrea Shockling
Colleen Doran
Jamal Igle
Marissa Louise
Ramon Villalobos
Tess Fowler
Kelly Fitzpatrick
Tamra Bonvillain
Triona Tree Farrell
Alex de Campi
Amy Chu
Christopher Sebela
Justin Jordan
Kirk Perez
Paul Allor
Ryan Ferrier
Ulysses Farinas
David Brothers
Kieran Schiach
Rich Johnston
Jude Terror
Joseph Glass
Matt Santori Griffith
Stephanie Cooke
Colin Spacetwinks

I also saw a poster today, of Black Panther, badly photoshopped to be holding a watermelon. It also wasn't called Black Panther anymore. I'll let you fill in the blank yourself.

So damn sad.

[plastroncafe]

I'm amused that G. Willow Wilson isn't on this list.

[Leonardo_thebest]

This list is about 5 days old. It's been expanded apparently.

[ZariusTwo]

Mark Waid, Dan Slott and Brevoort are real pricks to people in general, even if you aren't a "regressive".

[Leonardo_thebest]

Mark Waid, Dan Slott and Brevoort are real pricks to people in general, even if you aren't a "regressive".

I noticed his name in your signature. What's that about? Do you know each other?

[plastroncafe]

Mark Waid, Dan Slott and Brevoort are real pricks to people in general, even if you aren't a "regressive".

From personal experience? Or that you've heard?
I can't said as I've met the latter two, but I've met Waid, and he was nice enough to me.

Of course, I met him socially...and not when we were opposite sides of a table.

[Allio]

I really don't get it. Can you give an example of why you think a comic is crappy?

I never cared much for "It's ironman, but they are black." Just like I wouldnt want an asian Black Panther, I don't care much for change of characters outside of live action (Eastern heroes like the Space Sheriffs are okay since that's the whole point of Transformation heroes)

I want more original heroes. I on't want a black batman, I want an original black superhero, that is better than using a hero's name to sell a new character.

Like I get that a previously established title would have a better chance to sell then a new ip. I'm not mad that they do this, I just wish we were in a position to do it better.

Granted, I'm a huge manga reader. So literally about everything I have read stars non-white people so the race thing is a mute point.

[TurtleWA]

The fanbase has changed.

How has the fanbase changed? Im not saying it hasn’t. I’m just not up to date on these things and would like to know what you have observed.

[ZariusTwo]

I noticed his name in your signature. What's that about? Do you know each other?

We were friends on Facebook, but I was critical of some comics he wrote and he gave me a dressing down for it. Then I started hanging out with Doug Ernst's blog and he really lost it. I was the one who unfriended him because he was planning to rat me out publicly.

From personal experience? Or that you've heard?

Brevoort's openly admitted online that ticking readers off is what makes them money, and we should "take our medicine". Waid has threatened people over on Twitter for disagreeing with him and held a private chat room with other writers (also on the blacklist) to beat up or intice one of the comicsgate bigwigs at a convention.

[plastroncafe]

Now I feel entirely out of the loop.
The hashtag has bigwigs?

Is that like being a BNF?

[dl316bh]

Several of those people don't even work for Marvel or even in licensed comics anymore. Like, what the hell is Larry Hama doing there? Is he doing anything other than OG GI Joe right now? Matt Fraction? He hasn't been with Marvel for three years, has little social media presence - I remember him deleting his Twitter and giving everyone the verbal finger after people started making creepy comments about his kids years back - and doesn't do much more than Sex Criminals right now. Kelly Sue left about the same time. Jamal Igle hasn't done steady mainstream work since 2011 (last I heard he took up a marketing position in a smaller press company)

When did David Brothers get in the public eye? Did someone hire him and I didn't hear about it? Good on him if that happened. I've read his stuff from 4thletter to Comics Alliance on. The guy got me to think and learn more than a few things about black perspective on comics and the treatment within them. Given what he wrote about then, I'm not at all shocked he ended up on a s***list or two.

Gail Simone doesn't surprise me either. She's pissed people off since as far back as pointing out the poor treatment of women in comics and coining "women in refrigerators". I miss her on DC books. Secret Six was great.

Rich Johnstons inclusion amuses me, since people actually involved in making comics don't like the guy either and Mark Waid's wished the guy could be blackballed entirely at least once.

I'm amused that G. Willow Wilson isn't on this list.
Oh, I'm sure she was just overlooked.

Mark Waid, Dan Slott and Brevoort are real pricks to people in general, even if you aren't a "regressive".
Dunno about the other two, but I think at this point, people should already know full well what Mark Waid is like. Dude is outspoken and can get emotionally involved or angry over things. Especially if we're talking Superman. Been like that for as long as I've paid attention to creators and it sounds like it was like that even before message boards broke some barriers between creators and fans.

[plastroncafe]

When all you have is a grindstone, everything looks like...an ax?

[Leonardo_thebest]

Several of those people don't even work for Marvel or even in licensed comics anymore. Like, what the hell is Larry Hama doing there? Is he doing anything other than OG GI Joe right now? Matt Fraction? He hasn't been with Marvel for three years, has little social media presence - I remember him deleting his Twitter and giving everyone the verbal finger after people started making creepy comments about his kids years back - and doesn't do much more than Sex Criminals right now. Kelly Sue left about the same time. Jamal Igle hasn't done steady mainstream work since 2011 (last I heard he took up a marketing position in a smaller press company)

When did David Brothers get in the public eye? Did someone hire him and I didn't hear about it? Good on him if that happened. I've read his stuff from 4thletter to Comics Alliance on. The guy got me to think and learn more than a few things about black perspective on comics and the treatment within them. Given what he wrote about then, I'm not at all shocked he ended up on a s***list or two.

Gail Simone doesn't surprise me either. She's pissed people off since as far back as pointing out the poor treatment of women in comics and coining "women in refrigerators". I miss her on DC books. Secret Six was great.

Rich Johnstons inclusion amuses me, since people actually involved in making comics don't like the guy either and Mark Waid's wished the guy could be blackballed entirely at least once.


Oh, I'm sure she was just overlooked.


Dunno about the other two, but I think at this point, people should already know full well what Mark Waid is like. Dude is outspoken and can get emotionally involved or angry over things. Especially if we're talking Superman. Been like that for as long as I've paid attention to creators and it sounds like it was like that even before message boards broke some barriers between creators and fans.

So, we have at least two people in the comic industry here then?
Zarius Two and yourself?

I've been doing my homework, watching Diversity in Comics to try and get perspective. I wouldn't say he knows much more than the average reader, but his ASMR seems to be winning him friends.

[plastroncafe]

That Ernst guy is precious.

[ProphetofGanja]

I know, I KNOW hahaha.



It's not bad, there were some great books this year. I'm loving Maestros right now. It's a lot of fun.

So, I thought it was worth looking over. These are the names on the blacklist, the ones that regressives are having a problem with.

Andy Khouri
Alanna Smith
Heather Antos
Tom Brevoort
Ales Kot
Aubrey Sitterson
B. Clay Moore
Dan Slott
Gabby Rivera
Gail Simone
Jennifer de Guzman
Kelly Sue DeConnick
Kurt Busiek
Larry Hama
Magdalene Vissagio
Mark Waid
Matt Fraction
Max Bemis
Nick Spencer
Sina Grace
Ta-Nehisi Coates
Tim Doyle
Zachary Davisson
Andrea Shockling
Colleen Doran
Jamal Igle
Marissa Louise
Ramon Villalobos
Tess Fowler
Kelly Fitzpatrick
Tamra Bonvillain
Triona Tree Farrell
Alex de Campi
Amy Chu
Christopher Sebela
Justin Jordan
Kirk Perez
Paul Allor
Ryan Ferrier
Ulysses Farinas
David Brothers
Kieran Schiach
Rich Johnston
Jude Terror
Joseph Glass
Matt Santori Griffith
Stephanie Cooke
Colin Spacetwinks

I also saw a poster today, of Black Panther, badly photoshopped to be holding a watermelon. It also wasn't called Black Panther anymore. I'll let you fill in the blank yourself.

So damn sad.

Damn, our very own Paul Allor made the list. Makes me want to check out more of his work outside the TMNT

I wish dumb, regressive assholes would just find their own media to consume

[dl316bh]

So, we have at least two people in the comic industry here then?
Zarius Two and yourself?
No, I was just more plugged in to what was going in in comics for a while and read a lot of the different stuff back when comic websites were healthier.

I wish dumb, regressive assholes would just find their own media to consume
They consider this their media, though, and don't want to share for reasons. That's the conflict.

[plastroncafe]

That's at least a sentiment that, while I don't agree with, I can relate to. What I don't understand is how all of these obviously well read fanboys can so easily ignore the history of the medium.

To actually believe the thesis that Comics are only now espousing a political viewpoint, is to ignore the very history of superhero comics itself.

Captain America punching Hitler. Heck, even Raphael punched Hitler.
The very existence of the X-Men themselves.

I get the frustration, because I feel it too, but I disagree on what the problem is. We have too many people making editorial decisions based on profit margins and not on storytelling. Exec's want more bang for their Buck coming out of the gate, and they're not willing or patient enough for a Slow Burn.

It's like Fox cancelling show after show because they don't manage to capture the lightning-in-a-bottle The X-Files did in the first five episodes.

[Sumac]

That's at least a sentiment that, while I don't agree with, I can relate to. What I don't understand is how all of these obviously well read fanboys can so easily ignore the history of the medium.

To actually believe the thesis that Comics are only now espousing a political viewpoint, is to ignore the very history of superhero comics itself.

Captain America punching Hitler. Heck, even Raphael punched Hitler.
The very existence of the X-Men themselves.
Because, it was too long ago and for most people those characters and events as fictional as those comic book characters.

This is the same reason why some people don't see OT Star Wars trilogy as political, despite it being commentary about Vietnam War.

Because, who gives a **** about Vietnam War nowadays? No-one.
It's just "something that had happened long time ago from history books". So naturally, for people who never lived through this time, relevancy of the commentary is lost.
Because, it's hard to put yourself on the place and time of the past. Current Status Quo is the only thing people know right now and it's hard to see how it was several decades ago.

[Cure]

Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?

[plastroncafe]

In America today?
A lot more people than I'm strictly comfortable with.

I realize that being from the tail end of Generation X that maybe my experiences aren't quite as common place as the rest of my online cohort, however my parents were alive and drafted for the Vietnam War. I have family members still suffering the effects of post-traumatic stress from the Vietnam War.

If the people behind ComicDorf are ignoring tangible aspects of history, that at most they would only have to ask their parents or grandparents about and for some inexplicable reason haven't done that, then why is anyone entertaining anything they have to say in the first place?

[Sumac]

Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
The problem here is that Hitler was "nerfed" to the point where he is thought to be more of a historical meme.

When most people think of Hitler, they don't think of him as "real person", or rather they don't comprehend him as a "real person", they think of him in vein of a comic book villain. And because of that when Hitler is involved, it's less about some issues and more about using some evil dude from the past. Message is lost due to mythologization. Or rather "memezation".

If the people behind ComicDorf are ignoring tangible aspects of history, that at most they would only have to ask their parents or grandparents about and for some inexplicable reason haven't done that, then why is anyone entertaining anything they have to say in the first place?
Most kids just see their memories of their parents as rumbling of old and confused people.
And I don't think a lot of them will ask about this stuff, because, of that reason.

[ProphetofGanja]

Because, who gives a **** about Vietnam War nowadays?

HwuTbAo712I
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

But for real, I agree. Lessons learned by society get lost in the annals of history, and even in their heyday they don't reach every group of people.

People can live in the same place at the same time and be in two totally different worlds

[plastroncafe]

Okay, let's assume that this is all the case, what's the best course of action to reach these Hit List building kids?

Because my knee-jerk reaction is to ignore them, but given that I live in Boston, the birthplace of GamerDorf, I know first-hand that ignoring them leads to future threats of harm and violence.

[Spike Spiegel]

Would there be a hit list of creators if they didn't engage these people the way they do?

I guess Waid attempted to have this "Diversity & Comics" guy banned from a con?

https://assets.change.org/photos/8/zi/qj/KIZiqJTStPVzKkb-800x450-noPad.jpg?1509987088

Some butthurt creators have reduced themselves to the level of the worst trolls, and that's what's kept the conflict alive. They weren't hired to virtue signal on Twitter and Facebook; they were hired to write and draw comics.

[plastroncafe]

Yes, I think there would be.

[dl316bh]

Worth noting threats, death or otherwise, have increased a lot, especially these days with the influx of minority talent, so if you're wondering why comic personalities are getting more combative, there you go.

Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?
White supremacists. Neo-Nazi's. Alt-righters. Wolfenstein II came out very recently and some of them came out of the woodwork to get upset about it, because Nazi killing.

http://www.newsweek.com/nazi-video-game-wolfenstein-angers-nazis-make-america-nazi-free-again-slogan-679530
https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtissilver/2017/10/10/wolfenstein-make-america-nazi-free-again/#189d72f02554

Great game, by the way. I really appreciate it for taking a hard look at the past and America at the time and how a good portion of the country might have reacted if we'd lost, even if it's dressed with crazy Nazi mechs and airships. It got a little more real than I expected and had something to say.

Would there be a hit list of creators if they didn't engage these people the way they do?
Oh yeah, there would be. But I've looked into the thing more since yesterday, and the reasons the list is compiled is laughable. Sitterson's on there because he's a New Yorker, from New York City, who was living in NYC on 9/11, who snarked about people who get up their own ass about their "suffering" over the day when they live thousands of miles away. Johnston because he reported on these lists and harassment campaigns targeting creators. The rest are there simply because they promote a "SJW" agenda and not anything in particular they said, which explains Kelly Sue - I'm sure Bitch Planet didn't go over well with them - and probably Fraction. Larry Hama's probably on there because he made a new Snake Eyes who isn't a man.

So, you know, now having that context, f*** 'em.

[ProactiveMan]

Is punching Hitler really a political thing, though? Like, political statements can be disagreed with. Who doesn't think Hitler should be punched in the face?

As luck would have it he punched himself in the face with a Walther PPK so everyone can relax.

I could put forward a case as to why I disagree with a comic book character punching Hitler, but it wouldn't really be a political thing so much as a question of good taste. Hitler and his cronies caused so much pain and suffering that including him in a cheese-ball superhero comic feels a bit crass to me.

It's also a tiny bit pathetic. It's easy to write 'invulnerable muscle-man punches Hitler', while you’re sitting in a plush chair, drinking coffee, and listening to Spotify. In reality, Hitler jaw was beyond the reach of the average person, and posturing as though you would totally knock him out is a little bit disrespectful to the people who died trying, and the people who died and suffered because they were powerless to do anything. We are powerless to do anything. Hitler died before we were born – we cannot effect the outcome, and dreaming about doing so is just an impotent, self-aggrandising power fantasy.

You could also argue that it is very important to remember history as it actually happened – especially catastrophic events like the world wars. That old line about “Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it” is pertinent here. The problem is that once we start fictionalising history, the facts and the fantasy start to blur together. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from WWII; about failures of politics, economics, communication… and it’s very complex. Nobody’s going to learn anything reducing it down to ‘an evil guy and his minions tried to take over the world and we kicked their asses! Oh and buy the way I heard that he had supernatural powers and invented UFOs!!!’

[Refractive Reflections]

The problem here is that Hitler was "nerfed" to the point where he is thought to be more of a historical meme.

When most people think of Hitler, they don't think of him as "real person", or rather they don't comprehend him as a "real person", they think of him in vein of a comic book villain. And because of that when Hitler is involved, it's less about some issues and more about using some evil dude from the past. Message is lost due to mythologization. Or rather "memezation".


Most kids just see their memories of their parents as rumbling of old and confused people.
And I don't think a lot of them will ask about this stuff, because, of that reason.

As luck would have it he punched himself in the face with a Walther PPK so everyone can relax.

I could put forward a case as to why I disagree with a comic book character punching Hitler, but it wouldn't really be a political thing so much as a question of good taste. Hitler and his cronies caused so much pain and suffering that including him in a cheese-ball superhero comic feels a bit crass to me.

It's also a tiny bit pathetic. It's easy to write 'invulnerable muscle-man punches Hitler', while you’re sitting in a plush chair, drinking coffee, and listening to Spotify. In reality, Hitler jaw was beyond the reach of the average person, and posturing as though you would totally knock him out is a little bit disrespectful to the people who died trying, and the people who died and suffered because they were powerless to do anything. We are powerless to do anything. Hitler died before we were born – we cannot effect the outcome, and dreaming about doing so is just an impotent, self-aggrandising power fantasy.

You could also argue that it is very important to remember history as it actually happened – especially catastrophic events like the world wars. That old line about “Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it” is pertinent here. The problem is that once we start fictionalising history, the facts and the fantasy start to blur together. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from WWII; about failures of politics, economics, communication… and it’s very complex. Nobody’s going to learn anything reducing it down to ‘an evil guy and his minions tried to take over the world and we kicked their asses! Oh and buy the way I heard that he had supernatural powers and invented UFOs!!!’

All great points, I guess in a way it would be comparable, if 50 years or so, comic books including punching out Osama Bin Laden.

...And it's no wonder why older generations mock and criticize the sensitivity, shallowness, and arrogance of younger generations, when the first 2/3s the 20th century experienced unprecedented enormous political, social, and economic instability and change, with Laissez-faire industrialization (no workers' rights or safety protocols) and monopolization of the Gilded Age, World War 1, the Russian Revolution/Civil War, The Dust Bowl, The Great Depression, the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s, World War 2, the Chinese Civil War, the Communist regimes of the USSR (i.e with Stalin in the Great Purge) and of China (i.e. the Cultural Revolution in China), and the Cold War era.

That period experienced hundreds of millions of casualties, and a cumulative magnitude of suffering (individual and societal) that is inconceivable for generations of today.

[plastroncafe]

I think Hitler has only become a boogey man of some long forgotten age for people who weren't really directly affected by his regime.

But I don't think it's wrong to say that the average American doesn't share that cultural memory, which is pretty much how similar levels of authoritarianism and cultural supremacy have been allowed to once again take root.

[Candy Kappa]

This is why in Norway 9th graders goes on school trips to Poland to visit Auschwitz. And in my home city we've kept a building named the Archives intact and restored to how it looked during the occupation, it's a building the Secret Police used to imprison and torture people.

[John Pannozzi]

This list is about 5 days old. It's been expanded apparently.

I'm surprised Kate Leth wasn't in that list to begin with, given what I've heard about her.

Anyway, this article (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/02/ethan-van-sciver-dc-comics/) is pretty relevant to the Comicsgate debacle.

[Sumac]

I think Hitler has only become a boogey man of some long forgotten age for people who weren't really directly affected by his regime.
And how many of those directly affected still alive?
Aside from Jews and Germans, for whom it's more personal than for anyone else, of course.

Even Russians think of WW2 more in line of some fantasy tale, which not in the least helped by modern Putin's propaganda.

But I don't think it's wrong to say that the average American doesn't share that cultural memory, which is pretty much how similar levels of authoritarianism and cultural supremacy have been allowed to once again take root.
American supposed "authoritarianism" is similar to Nazi Germany? What!?
Another Lefty bulldang and fear-mongering.

Some people are lacking perspective so much...
If you want real authoritarianism, go to North Korea. Or even Russia.
In general, this talk about "American authoritarianism" seems like a fear-mongering and overreaction of fragile lefties, because, in America someone dare to have different opinion from you. Which, ironically enough, makes you authoritarian, not a country.

[John Pannozzi]

In-depth article on Comicsgate: https://amp.thedailybeast.com/comicsgate-how-an-anti-diversity-harassment-campaign-in-comics-got-uglyand-profitable

[ProactiveMan]

Interesting, but I'd suggest some alternative titles...


'Comicsgate: How an anti-diversity harassment campaign in comics got ugly and profitable... for online journalists'
'A case study in declining editorial standards'
'The clash of people with too much time on their hands'.


I confess that I have no skin in this game, so perhaps from the perspective of a comic book fan it is an important discussion and I'm being flippant. Sorry if that's the case, but this whole thing just seems like bull bating to me. Publishers thought they could resuscitate a dying industry by causing controversy, and new media opportunists found a way to needle the mob and exploit it for a quick buck. I find it difficult to believe that any of these parties actually believe in what they're selling.

[Sumac]

Interesting, but I'd suggest some alternative titles...


'Comicsgate: How an anti-diversity harassment campaign in comics got ugly and profitable... for online journalists'
'A case study in declining editorial standards'
'The clash of people with too much time on their hands'.


I confess that I have no skin in this game, so perhaps from the perspective of a comic book fan it is an important discussion and I'm being flippant. Sorry if that's the case, but this whole thing just seems like bull bating to me. Publishers thought they could resuscitate a dying industry by causing controversy, and new media opportunists found a way to needle the mob and exploit it for a quick buck. I find it difficult to believe that any of these parties actually believe in what they're selling.
Never underestimate the power of human fanaticism. :-?

[Leonardo_thebest]

Diversity in comics is riding high and acting untouchable.

He's an idiot, sure, but he has a following 60k strong, so maybe he's just playing the fool. Monthly sales on any title barely break 100k these days, and the average buyer takes home 2-3 books or more a month, so at best you could argue there are 150k regulars to the 3 thousand stores still standing.

TLDR; He's winning, using the same strategy as Trump.

[ProactiveMan]

Never underestimate the power of human fanaticism. :-?

Fanatics are real, and they’re fairly undiscerning consumers. Once you know what sets them off, you can feed it to them or bait them with it. Journalists bank on this as well as publicists and advertisers. “You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war.”

[Sumac]

Fanatics are real, and they’re fairly undiscerning consumers. Once you know what sets them off, you can feed it to them or bait them with it. Journalists bank on this as well as publicists and
advertisers. “You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war.”
Precisely.
Sad state of affairs. Some people using good ideas for lucrative means, which robs those ideas of meaning.