Is Ninjara there?

[Kahlan Nightwing]

:tanime: Hey! I'm new here. Name's Kahlan. Anyways, I heard about this new TMNT show and how it might be like the comics. I was just wondering if they would have Ninjara in that case. You know, the were-fox that went out with Raph until she got all soft and dumped him for a pathetic weakling wolf.... No, I'm not peed about that at all! lol ^_^ Thanks!

[Karpo_007]

Well ninjara is part of kiddies archie comics so she wont be there i believe..

[Nickokapo]

yay!err...sorry, it's just that i'm not really a fan of ninjara :P
There were so many good characters in the archie comics...too bad they'll only use chars from the mirage comics in the new cartoon :ohwell:

[Nturtle]

*comes rolling out of ventilator shaft*
welcome to the technodrome Kahlan Nightwing!!!!! and I have the honor of presenting you his welcome mango!!!!!!! *gives Kahlan Nightwing a mango o' welcome!!!* Enjoy!!! and don't mind the weirdness!!! :goof: *jumps back into ventilator shaft*

[Nickokapo]

Hmph, silly me i forgot that, welcome Kahlan Nightwing! :D

[Kali]

Welcome Kahlan! As the others told you, it's very unlikely that Ninjara will show up in the new series. They're basing it on the Mirage comics, not Archie.

BTW, you might wanna resize that avatar.

[Karpo_007]

yeah i think it mght be a "little" too big...

[Nturtle]

:lol: yeah it just takes up the whole page

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Sorry.... Guess I wanted to come in in a 'big' way. Oh, Ninjara was a childhood role-model. I saw her and Raph from the get-go. I LOVE Raph...he's so.... Intense.... Yeah. anyways, thanks for the welcome. I hope my resized pic is better.... :roll:

[Nturtle]

everybody loves raph :P hmmm... I don't see your new avatar

[Kali]

That's funny, as a Raph fan I usually want to blow any of his potential love interests' heads off. But I guess that's just me.

[Nturtle]

Deffinitly just you... :sweatdro:

[Karpo_007]

i second that :o

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Well, I'm that way with all my obssessions. I admire the women who have them. At least my potential boyfriend won't have to be jealous of all the married/taken guys I like.... :goofygri: But, then again, he'd be jealous anyways. All my guys have--arms. Yes, muscled arms, that's what I like. A--fetish if you will. I always liked Raph's temper...and the antihero thing, and stuff. I like it when a person has fun killing a bad guy.... Plus, the sais. Sais are cool.... I know a few moves with them, but I'm a kama girl myself....

[Nturtle]

wow.. you sound like kali!! :lol: I see you are also a dbz fan girl!! :P

[HorseTechie]

All my guys have--arms. Yes, muscled arms, that's what I like. A--fetish if you will.
*lol* hey.. another person who has strange fetishes. I have a thing for naked knees, and well drawn/muscled legs.. and buttocks. :goofygri:

*shuts up before this goes too far off topic and I'll have to move the thread elsewhere*

Oh yeah, welcome! I'm HorseTechie, the mod of this partiucler forum area, thing. And thanks for reducing the size of your AV... my PC's modem thanks you too. :wink:

[azure turtle]

Hi Kahlan, and welcome to the Technodrome!
*gives Kahlan another mango of welcome*
Hmm... Another Raph fangirl. I think you and Kali are gonna get along nicely. ;)

Althought the toon is being based off of the Mirage comics, I remember reading somewhere that there will be original storylines along with a few surprise guests. So even though the chances of Ninjara appearing are very slim, there's always that tiny possibility...

Anywho, I hope you enjoy your stay here! :D

[Nturtle]

Yup, it all depends on how popular the show becomes, the more popular the more guest characters!!!!

[Karpo_007]

you can never know... but still it's hard to believe...

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Ah, ok.... Buttocks.... Yes... *sighs dreamily* My mind wanders to a certain manga with a certain Saiyan Prince stepping bare-butt naked out a certain tank.... *sigh* Yep, I don't think the turtles have butt-shots, do they? Or even muscled back shots.... Ah, the curse of having a shell. :(

Anyways, :evilgrin: I'm doing a fanfic where Raph and Ninjara may get back together. I'm piecing together certain quotes from the Archie comics and the first movie to bring them to the same place.... Hopefully, I can--unwussify Ninjara from her pansy wolf-friend (Yamcha! :dead: ) and get her back with her cool hot-headed companion (Vegeta :D ). Man, all my addictions and obssessions are interlinked somehow!

[Kali]

*sighs*

Ah, ok.... Buttocks.... Yes... *sighs dreamily* My mind wanders to a certain manga with a certain Saiyan Prince stepping bare-butt naked out a certain tank.... *sigh* Yep, I don't think the turtles have butt-shots, do they?
They've got some nice ones in the movies. Especially the second one.

[Machias Banshee]

:trolleye:

Man, this thread is too strange for me...

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Ah! *wags finger* Then you've never read my stories, eh? Weirdness galore.... People are always asking me what I'm on when yet another KN fic comes out.... If only I stopped dreaming up these stories.... J/K I LOVE my talent! 8)

[R-iZZy]

ummm... ok! i love my talent as well. epecially in athletics and writing. i definitely love my talent for ninja turtle wannabe! yay.

[Karpo_007]

This is getting too weird for me to :o
Im not sure if i dare to even read this thred anymore :(

[TigerClaw]

Ninjara was a great character in that comic, You barely see strong female mutant characters in the comics these days, I wonder if the new series will feature other mutant characters like the original series did?

[Tinselcat]

welcome nightwing and tigerclaw! i'd initiate the tmnt cheerleader's welcome cheer, but i've already done it twice today, and my sparkly pom-poms are looking a bit haggard... anyway, welcome, enjoy your mangos!!

[TigerClaw]

Thanks, Any idea whether the new series will feature any mutant characters whether there good or bad?, I was used the original series as well as the archie comics series which featured a lot of other mutant characters like the mutanimals.

[Kahlan Nightwing]

I remembered a particularly good scene where they were in Iraq or Kuwait or something and Ninjara said something about the pyramids being one of the 8 wonders of the world. Raphael takes the bait and asks what the others are. She goes on, listing the other six. He points out that she left one out. She says 'That's a woman's kiss.' and, yep, kisses him.... I so wanted to kissed like that when I was--10 I think.... I still want to be kissed like that.... Only, perhaps by a guy with a tail. You woulnd't believe--ah, nevermind. Little ears here, right?

Anyways, if they even included one female bad-butt on the series I would be happy. BTW, when does it start and on what channel?

Kahlan, who used to wish Raphael was alive so she 'could love him'.... Now I just wish *a* guy were alive *to* love.... Pathetic. Really pathetic. :P [/b]

[heretic888]

i really liked the archie comic series, although i dont think it was quite as good as the original. ninjara should probably stay out of the new animated series and cgi move. however..... i would LOVE to see Mirage or someone re-start the archie series..... would be mucho coolio. A Mirage and Archie series would feel just like ol' times. Hee.

[Jade Green]

*grins maniacly*

For ME, its more of a romantic type thing, believe it or not.
Raph, in my view is like a Don Juan, a James Dean... (though Don Juan broke several hearts and James Dean in real life was all that)...

Is any one here familiar with George Gordon, Lord Byron works? He's famous for a particular type of male hero now used more than ever in our day and time. The Byronic Hero (Gee, wonder where they got the Byronic from?). Thomas Babington Macauly described a Byronic hero as, "A man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection."
Now tell me, does that describe Raphael? Or does that Describe Raphael?

Speaking of Lord Byron, another quote used to describe him by Lady Caroline Lamb would also describe Raph: Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to know.

I think I might use one o' those as my next quote. *points down to her own quote below*

[Kahlan Nightwing]

wow! That Bryonic Hero also describes another of my--ah, one of two of my obssessions. I love the antihero type. Not afraid to kick butt, but loyalty up the wahoo to anyone he respects. And respect if hard to come by him.... Anyways, when and where is this cartoon on? I've yet to see it. It would be too convienent to be on Toonami eh? lol

[Jade Green]

*pouts*
Even if Toonami was gracious enough to put the cartoon on their station, it would not help me any. I haven't any cable!

[heretic888]

i never really saw Raph as the lovey romantic type..... maybe Mike, if any of them, but definitely not Raph. He spends too much time pissed off and brooding. then again, im a guy so these things arent exactly my forte.

[Kali]

No, Raph's not the lovey romantic type, he's the realistic romantic type. His high angst level gives him an air of romantisism (is that a word? oh well...) Mikey would be the one more likely to give out flowers and write poetry, but in some ways, Raph is more emotional than Mike. He doesn't pussyfoot around with his feelings, he acts on them, whether it be anger or love.

Yes, fear the ranting of fan girls! Bwahahahaha!

[heretic888]

no, Raph is the type more likely to say "get the hell away from me!"

seriously, the guy is very angry. he's not romantic at all. i fail to see how being pissed off makes you 'romantic'. i was really pissed off at one point in my life, and i can assure you no woman ever viewed me as 'romantic'.

pussyfoot his feelings? Michelangelo is probably the most psychologically 'developed' out of all his brothers. just because he doesnt allow personal insecurities control him does not mean he 'pussyfoots'.

Raphael is more emotional in the sense that he isnt as controlled or disciplined as his other brothers. But, Raphael rarely deals with 'deep' emotions to begin with.

Michelangelo seems to have a more world-centric, compassionate concern dominating his motivations... Raphael tends to be more egocentric and antagonistic. Its the difference between emotions that come from the 'heart' and emotions that come from the id.

[Kali]

I'd just like to say that no one is THAT 2 dimensional. Raphael has shown true caring feelings for his family and friends. He's highly protective of them. Raph's not always angry, just like Mikey isn't always goofing off, Don isn't always locked away in his lab, and Leo isn't always practicing.

[terran631]

Don's not always locked away in his lab?? Ooops better start rewriting. :D
Seriously though, that't what I enjoy the most about reading fanfiction. I think it brings the characters more to life than any other medium. Merely because people enjoy putting them in awkward situations that movies TV and comics try to avoid

[Jade Green]

*clears her throat*
Apparently, you guys didn't actually READ all of what I said did you?
I was pointing out the similarities. You're telling me that Raph ISN"T Cynicle? That he ISN"T Moody? That he isn't Defiant towards Leo most of the time and others? Are you telling me that Raph is not Vengful, that he doesn't feel misery?
Re read the quote... PLEASE

, "A man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection."

As a whole, he is a Byronic hero... He IS proud, he IS moody, he IS Cynical, He is defiant towards others... I'm sure that he wished to be human once or twice and I'm very sure that he has the revenge thing down pat.
You can't tell me that Raph isn't capable of affection for others: He loves his brothers, even if he doesn't show it; he loves splinter; he's cool with Casey, April and what not...
THAT is what I mean, not the Romantic crap of flowers and sweet nothings in the ear... I meant it was Romantic in the other view... Think the ROMANTIC Erra... not like those cruddy Romance books!
Geeze...

[GreenWillow]

~Heh....um....ok.
Well, the thing we do know about Raph that leads to the hot head and rebellious or defiant aspects, plus that heedless berzerker style of fighting, is that he's *aggressive*, right? That word fits, huh?
Aggression is caused by the abundance of a certain hormone. It has another effect, too.
Yeah, Raph has a lot of appeal. But it's not exactly romance.
You guys prolly don't see that. I'm quite sure Eastman and Laird never consciously put it there.
But I betcha all the girls know what I'm talking about.

~GW

[Jade Green]

i know what yer talking about, and I never really called RAPH Romantic in the first place... I said it was 'romantic' for ME. And its not Raph personally, its my love for characters of a particular type... I often go for the darker personalities because they fit my own TRUE personality.
I know what you mean, Willow but he also fits a lot of those things that I pointed out. Lets just put it this way, we all have different ways of discribing Raphael as well as the others. i compare Raphael to the character type used by Lord Byron... you don't. Fair enough.

[GreenWillow]

~I wasn't arguing with your perspective, Jade. I was analyzing. :p I liked this from Heretic, too:


Michelangelo seems to have a more world-centric, compassionate concern dominating his motivations... Raphael tends to be more egocentric and antagonistic. Its the difference between emotions that come from the 'heart' and emotions that come from the id.

Id-driven seems like a pretty accurate description of Raphael. Id stuff is all about survival, basic instincts and the feelings that come out of that... And anger is always a secondary emotion. It jumps in there pretty fast and we generally don't recognise it, but anger is there to cover hurt or fear or other feelings that aren't very comfortable for us.
Now *there's* some potential for all that great angsty stuff. If anger is the cover-up for another feeling, in Raphael's case, what do you all suppose those underlying feelings are?
:evilgrin:

~GW....too early to be so analytical...where's my coffee...?

[Jade Green]

Der! Like I've been saying all along! he IS capable of deep and strong affection! :trolleye:

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Are you saying Raph can't fall in love? Listen, if an egotistical, psychotic, cold, murderer that has destroyed thousands of planets with all the people all on and denied time and again that his onw 'wife' and son meant "nothing" to him, but after ten years was able to sacrifice his life for his 'wife', son, and arch-rival can love, and he does let me tell you, then Raph, a pretty good guy (he doesn't go around killing people who piss him off by putting onions on his burger when he said 'no onions', does he?) can love.

That is all.... Unless you want me to mention Sesshoumaru as I did Vegeta.... Yes, I am obssessed with Vegeta....(shrug) Sorry. :evilgrin:

[Jade Green]

Hey, I agree with ya, gal... but... PICCOLO IS BETTER!
...just my own personal opinion...

[ladygarth]

I like Vegeta too!!! And I am a Bulma/Vegeta shipper too. I like reading fanfic about them and want to write them also. I also happen to be a Goku girl too.

[Jade Green]

I like Vegeta too!!! And I am a Bulma/Vegeta shipper too. I like reading fanfic about them and want to write them also. I also happen to be a Goku girl too.

Bulma and Vegeta were meant to be...
((And if you met my character Roum, you'd say that she and Piccolo were meant to be... *grins*))

[GreenWillow]

~I don't know who Vegata or Bulma are exactly so I'm gonna skip those comments and stick with what I know. :P

Der! Like I've been saying all along! he IS capable of deep and strong affection! :trolleye:

~Heh heh.... no one's arguing with you, Jade. Letsee, I'm pretty sure I've addressed this issue in some depth...ah yes: http://www.behindthemasks.com/greenwillow/sunnitoc.htm

I think our boy might come off as pretty Byronic there, actually, though I try not to adhere to "types" in my characterizations. :wink:

~GW

[Jade Green]

kay, I'll read it when I actually have the time...
I've been working on revising my own unfinished fan fic called Fantasm (go to HT's site if you want to see the first rather horrid verson).

[ladygarth]

:lol: I was thinking about that when you discribed her. A possible love interest for Piccolo.

[GreenWillow]

~Oh, I've started that once...<quickly re-reads>
.................................................. ....................
Yeah, I like how you've encorporated fantasy stuff and the four elements. You've got a good start there!
Wanna know something *really* funny? I've always associated Raphael with Water, rather than Fire, because it corresponds with Emotion. I think he lives in that realm-- whether it's his anger or passion, or whatever-- both his downfall and his strength. Lotsa Scorpio stuff in that boy.
I see Leo as Fire (action, leadership, Spirit, charisma, kinda bossy--uh, you know , like a Leo), Don as Air (The Mind, of course, Aquarius, like Peter Laird himself) and Mike as Earth (nurturing, "earthy" --likes to eat and laugh! Taurus stuff.)
Now I just have to wait for HT to show up and continue our now going- on- five - year- disagreement about which Turtle embodies what element. LOL!

~GW...no, really, it's been FIVE years! :lol:

[Jade Green]

~Oh, I've started that once...<quickly re-reads>
.................................................. ....................
Yeah, I like how you've encorporated fantasy stuff and the four elements. You've got a good start there!
Wanna know something *really* funny? I've always associated Raphael with Water, rather than Fire, because it corresponds with Emotion. I think he lives in that realm-- whether it's his anger or passion, or whatever-- both his downfall and his strength. Lotsa Scorpio stuff in that boy.
I see Leo as Fire (action, leadership, Spirit, charisma, kinda bossy--uh, you know , like a Leo), Don as Air (The Mind, of course, Aquarius, like Peter Laird himself) and Mike as Earth (nurturing, "earthy" --likes to eat and laugh! Taurus stuff.)
Now I just have to wait for HT to show up and continue our now going- on- five - year- disagreement about which Turtle embodies what element. LOL!

~GW...no, really, it's been FIVE years! :lol:

*thinks*
When it comes to what the four guys' zodiacs are, I've never really know WHAT birthday to go by for them. But I've all ways thought of Raphael as an Aries becaues Raphael Santi, the guy he was named after was born in April--I remember because I did a report on the guy my freshman year in highschool, he was born on Good Friday and he died on good friday too (but he could be something else, I'll have to check up on that).
My character Randi is a Scorpio though, she was born on DUN DUN DUN October 31... and Gray, who is a fusion of Randi and myself is uhm.... Well, she's either a Scorpio or a Capricorn (She just doesn't know which :P )

Any hoo, As for what their elements are, you have a point... I'll take that in consideration during my revision. I think I'll look up the artist's birthdays and then go from there ;) thanks!

Gee, maybe if I work on it hard enough during the year, it could be ready for the fan fic contests next year... :ttwisted:
Meh, heh, heh, I'm even making Ta'Chi darker.

[HorseTechie]

*pops in at the right time* Eh...? Leo as fire...? *cringe* :P

Me say, envision first something like the Korean Flag: Leo=air aka Kun, Raph=fire aka Yi, Mike=water aka Kam, Don=earth/rocks aka Kon (...and Splinter=Yang, Venus=Yin) At least that's the structure I use in my fics. :D

As far as how I percive Raph, it is a mix of how Jade and GW portrays him. His attraction fo rthe opposite sex is not "romantic" by definition. But since I RP as the guy a lot, I've made up my own niche for this as well. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Raph is like the kind of guy who would rather have one-night-stands. But of course, certain outward limitations kinda hampers that possiblity.

I percive Raph as being the kind of guy who rather keep his inner feelings and thoughs hidden within a shell or egotism, attitude and anger. He's been hurt alot in his younger years that made him more defensive. Only when the situations really start turning for the worse (or the better) will he finally admit to feeling more. You can say he's like the kid in Good Will Hunting.. or on a more drastic note, like Mr. D in the Red Dragon. Being more intimate with another woman means that Raph has to open up a whole lot more he may not want to admit. Not until he's mroe certain or comfortable that she won't end up hurting him.

That's my two cents... take it or leave it! :evilgrin:

[Jade Green]

*bit into HT's two cents, tasted it, and fully digested it.*

Let's put it this way: Raphael, along with the rest, is a hard guy to ever explain fully by words.

[HorseTechie]

Exactly!

You don't wanna know how much time I think about the TMNT personalities when I (used to) write my fanfics.. just to get them figured out enough so I could explain them with words. :wink:

[GreenWillow]

*pops in at the right time* Eh...? Leo as fire...? *cringe* :P

:evilgrin:

~Lol! See? See?

~GW....feels just like home..... :trazz:

[GreenWillow]

~Lately what I find I really like to do is stick 'em all in a room together and just let them talk and see what happens.
But I love discussions like this.....heh... kinda like what I do for a living, too.
Ack...

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Who...? the TMNT, or their creators? :goof:

[GreenWillow]

~lol! The TMNT! You know, sorta like a flow- of-consciousness exercise. Start on a topic and let them "say" whatever comes up. You can get some really nice insights into them that way.
Plus if you feel your own way through the relationships you can probably avoid some of that stereotyped behavior that was mentioned earlier in this thread. (Raph's always mad, Leo's always bossy, Mike's always a goof, Don's always a nerd, Splinter's always wise, etc)
F'rinstance, I hadn't realized that under Don's very cerebral exterior there's a vein of melancholy he keeps hidden from everyone. It's why he doesn't really like to meditate. Meditation takes you out of your "head" and puts you in touch with your heart.
:wink:
I'd have never know that if he hadn't "told" me that one day while I was just messing around with dialogue.....No, it's not canon, but boy, does it ever make sense.

~GW

[Kahlan Nightwing]

Yes, they are definitely my favorite couple, although I did not Bulma through the Namek and Frieza Sagas. Piccolo is my brother's fav. and i like him now that--*sob* Vegeta's *sob* dead--for now.... Episode 254.... Like to read B/V stuff? :thyper: http://www.mediaminer.org/fanfic/src.php?auth=20657 Have fun. Something for everyone, hopefully.... Um, what else? Yes, I've always seen Raph as fire.... Water? Interesting.... I'm a little bit of both; fire and water I mean....

Well, I'm off to read and write. See ya! :D

[HorseTechie]

~lol! The TMNT! You know, sorta like a flow- of-consciousness exercise. Start on a topic and let them "say" whatever comes up. You can get some really nice insights into them that way.
Oh yes... heh. Of course. Though... I can bet they would end up quickly going away from talking about their thoughts and feelings and more about the last movie or VG, football game, or the latest political happenstance. That's how *most* guys are. Unless Splinter was there to keep em on topic.

Plus if you feel your own way through the relationships you can probably avoid some of that stereotyped behavior that was mentioned earlier in this thread. (Raph's always mad, Leo's always bossy, Mike's always a goof, Don's always a nerd, Splinter's always wise, etc)

Yeah.... that is so true there though. I usually find myself more attracted to fics that do use a deeper approach to the TMNT. Or why I like comics and the first movie more over the cartoons and the movie's sequels.

The comic books are where I get the inspirations. Like that one Talbot (I think) of Don for a Turtle Soup. Or Dooney's Challenges. Or just various ways the other artists protrayed them as well as E&L. City at War had a lot too.. and not all of it was in words. Just looks, gestures, images to interpret. :)

[heretic888]

It seems I was misinterpreted beforehand, so I shall try and explain my ideas here a bit.

You must understand that psychological/spiritual growth takes place in a series of successive stages or levels. These levels are not rigid or unbending, but more like waves flowing into each other and interact to a great degree. The basic growth model is as follows: preconventional > conventional > postconventional > post-postconventional (or spiritual). Or, how about this one: egocentric > ethnocentric/sociocentric > worldcentric. To put it in layman's terms, the basic growth of self ascends from identifying with 'me' to identifying with 'us' to identifying with 'all of us'. In a spiritual point of view, you could say this is growth from 'id' (or 'shadow') to 'ego' (or 'self') to 'Spirit' (or 'God').

When i said Raphael was basically at an egocentric id-driven level, i did not mean that in any kind of rigid sense. He is most definitely capable of caring for others. Just recall, however, how many times he forwent the needs of his family to satisfy his own desires or anger. Meaning, Raphael is PRIMARILY at an egocentric level although he is not rigidly 'stuck' there.

Also, remember that there is the potential for any individual (including Raphael) to grow past the level they are currently identified with. Given time, he will undoubtedly grow past his anger-driven depressions.

From my own personal analysis, I have acknowledged that the Turtles are quite different in terms of psychological development. They are, from least developed to most developed as follows: 1) Rapheal, 2) Leonardo, 3) Donatello, and 4) Michelangelo.

1) Raphael seems to be mostly identified with an egocentric stage. For him, by and large, might makes right. Nobody tells me what to do! That is the battle cry of this level. There is much impulsive energy at this level and Raph channels this mostly through his vigilantism with Casey. This is, in many ways, the symbol of the archetypal hero and the archetypal villian. Raphael is concerning with 'making himself a better warrior'. However, this derives NOT from a love of martial arts and self-expression/self-exploration (as Michelangelo seems to do) but rather a thrill for physical violence and a desire for power and priority.
Raphael has shown, however, genuine concern for his brothers and family (particularly Michelangelo) so this indicates that he is on his way to taking the first step into a sociocentric worldview. However, he is primarily egocentric. Think of Rapheal as having one foot in egocentrism and one foot in sociocentrism.

2) Leonardo is at a fully sociocentric/ethnocentric level of identification. He is concerned with following the rules and laws their 'clan' has set up. This stage is also known as 'conformist'. Order and law are very important to him. He has shown great strategic and planning ability, however, so this indicates a beginning step into postconventional realms. He is a rigid perfectionist and impatient, negative signs of the conformist level.
Think of Leonardo as having one foot in sociocentrism and one foot in worldcentrism.

3) Donatello is at a postconventional level of identification. At this level, powers of reasoning and intellect (as opposed to the 'blind devotion' of the conformist level) predominate. There is a tendency to be very idealistic, as evidenced by Don's pacifism against killing. Unfortunately, many times there is an alienation of 'mind' and 'body' at this stage and Don seems to suffer from this... becoming overly mechanistic in his approaches. People at this stage can become very withdrawn and secluded, as Don often is.
Don is postconventional but has not yet realized the post-postconventional levels.

4) Michelangelo, the most developed of the brothers, is bordering into the post-postconventinal levels. He is, in many respects, the most 'spiritual' of the brothers. His relaxed humility, great love of life, sense of humor, creativity, intuitive sensitivity, and compassion connotes his higher level of development. The previous levels are primarily rigid and somewhat quite serious. This changes at the post-postconventional level when compassion and joy predominate.
Mike has his weaknesses, however. He is not fully into the post-postconventional level and often suffers from what Ken Wilber identified as 'boomeritis'. This enables lower, egocentric impulses to occassionally predominate, although these are often childish in nature (as opposed to Rapheal's rages). However, these tendencies have decreased in him with age.
Think of Mike as having one foot in the postconventional levels and one foot in the postpostconventional levels.


The elemental schemes really dont apply to the turtles that well. There are, of course, chakric levels associated with elements but none of the turtles are below the fire chakra. Raphal is full fire chakra. Leonardo is borderline fire chakra/wind chakra. Donatello is full wind chakra. And Michelangelo is borderline wind chakra/'fifth element' chakra. Splinter would be a full 'fifth element' chakra. The fifth element is Spirit. But they dont clearly dilineate into four elements.

[Kameko]

:o Good gawd, you put up alot of long posts, heretic.

[Kali]

Well, thank you, you have officially killed my love of psychology.

[Kameko]

No Kidding. :tsweatdr:

[heretic888]

sorry, but i was on a roll...... :D

if just little ol' me killed your love of psychology, you must have not loved it too much to begin with.

pardon me if im not politically correct, because i am... quite simply, not.

[Kali]

Eh, neither am I.

And I liked psychology on a very amaturish level anyway. I like the concepts, I just never could stand all those specific terms and such, makes my head spin. That's how I am about pretty much everything. I'm a theorist, I don't usually deal with pure fact and information, but instead reach my own conclusions which usually only make sense to me. :lol:

[heretic888]

well, im probably explaining it all wrong anyway.

I suggest you pick up a book by Ken Wilber if you're interested, particularly "Boomeritis". Its funny.

[HorseTechie]

*claps* Well said, Heretic. :D There's nuttin' wrong with saying something intelligent on these forms now and then.

I'm not a hard core student of psychology, but it still does fascinate me. And to be quite honest, sometimes it is hard to put a finger on what sort of nature the Turtles are. That's what makes it fun, I think.

[GreenWillow]

It seems I was misinterpreted beforehand, so I shall try and explain my ideas here a bit.
....etc.

~Whoa, heretic! I think you just put me to shame with regards to in-depth TMNT psychospiritual analysis. Very nice -- I certainly had not thought of Michaelangelo as the most spiritually advanced-- but viewed through Wilbur's paradigm, I sure see how that might work.
And Leo's rigid attachment to convention...hm...hm....yeah... Ok, now I'm gonna have to go rip through my old text books and see if I have any of Ken Wilbur's work...don't think I do, though I love his stuff.
Oh, and you won't bore *me* with long diatribes on psychology, don't worry. Two degrees and a career in the field haven't discouraged me yet. I'm prolly good to go for a long while. :P

~GW

[heretic888]

"*claps* Well said, Heretic. There's nuttin' wrong with saying something intelligent on these forms now and then.

I'm not a hard core student of psychology, but it still does fascinate me. And to be quite honest, sometimes it is hard to put a finger on what sort of nature the Turtles are. That's what makes it fun, I think."
------------
thanks for the compliments. :)

Yes, it is somewhat difficult to center down on what BASIC stage of development each of the turtles are at, but i do believe it is possible.
---------------------------------------
"~Whoa, heretic! I think you just put me to shame with regards to in-depth TMNT psychospiritual analysis. Very nice -- I certainly had not thought of Michaelangelo as the most spiritually advanced-- but viewed through Wilbur's paradigm, I sure see how that might work.
And Leo's rigid attachment to convention...hm...hm....yeah... Ok, now I'm gonna have to go rip through my old text books and see if I have any of Ken Wilbur's work...don't think I do, though I love his stuff.
Oh, and you won't bore *me* with long diatribes on psychology, don't worry. Two degrees and a career in the field haven't discouraged me yet. I'm prolly good to go for a long while."
---------
once again, thank you for the compliments. :D

When I said Leonardo is basically at the sociocentric level of development, that does not mean that he follows society's laws to the letter.... only that he follows his little 'society's' rules to the letter! You know, whatever Splinter says, Leo does! (Which isnt necessarily a bad thing!) Thats what I meant! Sociocentrism also means that one's basic circle of concern is mostly ONLY for your in-group (Leo's family and friends). meaning, Leo would probably be more willing to turn a blind eye on a complete stranger than Michelangelo or Donatello would.

I do truly believe that the character of Michelangelo is the most developed in terms of psycho-spiritual growth. He seems to exhibit all the symptoms of higher growth: calm, relaxed demeanor; great love of life at all levels (not just the physical as has been implied); great love for animals and children; high sense of genuine compassion and friendliness; high level of artistic creativity and intuitive sensitivity; great sense of humor and fun; positive, optimistic outlook on life; a skill in the arts; does not seem to be ruled by sociocentric laws or overly rationalistic ideals, nor is he dominated by egocentric 'emotions' (there are 'higher emotions' that do motivate him, such as compassion); almost unpredictable personality; great open-mindedness and psychological flexibility/diversity; very laid back with a high sense of personal freedom; great confidence in himself; and a gentle humility and lack of ego.

I could not honestly think of any of the brothers being more developed than Michelangelo (although he certainly has his fualts as well, such as his mischievous nature). Out of the four of them, he is in many ways the ideal ninja.

What do you think?

[Jade Green]

I never really cared either way for psychology, but I know what sociocentric and some of those terms are (took child development... children are egocentric until about... what, four? three? I can't remember, then they slowly become sociocentric...)

Please, just don't over analyze them... >.<;;

[heretic888]

im not overanalyzing them, just trying to understand each character's values and motivations....

[Jade Green]

im not overanalyzing them, just trying to understand each character's values and motivations....

Wull...
okay, what ever... but now that I know that you are another TMNT Guru, don't be surprised if I come running to you for advise like I do HT.
:embarass: :trazz:

[heretic888]

alright, i dont have a problem with that.

just remember that the tmnt that i am 'guru' of are pretty much exclusively the mirage versions. :D

[HorseTechie]

Heh... so am I. :P Though I also have some of the first motive concepts thrown in there too. Like how anger clouds the mind, and that every action has a reaction.

[heretic888]

well, those are basically Taoist-Buddhist concepts closely associated with martial arts and arent a very far stretch from the Mirage stories. Remember back when Splinter trained the Turtles at the farmhous?? Yeah, he was spoutin all sorts of nice Zen-esque wisdom: "In all the universe, change is the only constant. Therefore, learn to adapt." Or something like that....

[HorseTechie]

I think they were borrowing from a variety of popualr asian beliefs. That reference sounds like Confucianism again, in that this belief also teaches to accept what is status quo. (the things one learns after marrying an Asian)

[heretic888]

uhh... actually, thats kinda the complete opposite of what Splinter/ninpo teach..... much, much more Taoist than its cultural opposite (Confucianism). Then again, probably more Buddhist than anything.

[GreenWillow]

~I think you're right, Heretic. I'm trying to remember all of Splinter's lines that I recognized ("Even a journey of a thousand miles....") and I think they mostly seem to have their roots in Taoism, not Confuciansim. Which of course, is the tie-in to Zen Buddhism.
Of course, the cartoon writers could never seem to figure out, much less agree upon, whether Shredder's last name was Oroku or Saki, so I wouldn't put too much weight on the cartoon's representation of Asian culture.....

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Gaah... :tsweatdr:

I guess that's the difference between Japan, and China/Korea too. The later seems to incorporate more of Confucian beliefs. Oh well.. I can't even spell the word... so that shows how well of an expert I am in in.

[GreenWillow]

~Confuciansim has dominated China for centuries. It never really entered into Japanese philosophy, whereas where Taoist thought became incorporated into Budddhism and the resulting Zen philosophy began to replace much of Japan's native Shintoism.
I don't really know where Korea fits in to all this except that the predominant religion in Korea today is Catholicism......I suspect poor Korea has spent so much time getting overrun first by China and then by Japan that they have had to adapt to whomever the current invader is. (Prolly not a good idea to share that opinion with hubby... :wink:)
But I think the biggest problem we have in trying to understand which is which is what Hollywood and the rest of the pop culture media has done to distort and dilute and confuse things.

~GW

[HorseTechie]

I don't really know where Korea fits in to all this except that the predominant religion in Korea today is Catholicism......I suspect poor Korea has spent so much time getting overrun first by China and then by Japan that they have had to adapt to whomever the current invader is. (Prolly not a good idea to share that opinion with hubby... :wink:)
Actually, make that Christianity that dominaits Korea, not Catholicism. :wink: Which is interesting, since my husband is Christian, his parents and older bro are Buddhist, and his sister is atheist. But we all get along nicely since Koreans are polite and know better than to step on each others toes about religion.

Though, they are far more tolerant toward the ways of free China thatn they are of Communist China and Japan. In fact, my husband declares that Japan had borrowed/stolen many of the ways the Koreans did things. Adapt to Japanese rule, they did not wish to do.

*puts the Japanese version of the TMNT movie on stand*

This is another way they portray these things. I was quick to note how Splinter and the Turtles (the good guys) were Japanese. While Shredder (aka Young Kyu!), Tatsu (also given a new Korean name), and the Foot were the bad Korean guys. Sad... so sad... that's even worse than the changes Europe made to this movie! :evil:

[heretic888]

"Confuciansim has dominated China for centuries. It never really entered into Japanese philosophy, whereas where Taoist thought became incorporated into Budddhism and the resulting Zen philosophy began to replace much of Japan's native Shintoism."
--------
Yes, Confucianism has been the mainline way of thinking and behaving in China for, literally, centuries. However, you might be interested to look into Neo-Confucianism, later development of the religion which begin to include more mystical/spiritual components.

Confucianism most certainly DID enter into Japanese philosophy. Bushido, the honor code of the Japanese samurai, was almost entirely Confucian in nature. Most conventional martial arts were influenced by Confucianism and/or bushido (although ninjutsu was not).

Although it is true that Taoism did have an influence on Zen Buddhism, this influence is much smaller than previously assumed. Taoism really only influenced the people of the mountainous regions in Japan (including the yamabushi, ninja, sennin, and gyoja). Shinto was never really entirely thrown off, either.

The ninja, however, practiced a very unique form of spirituality: ninpo. Ninpo was, in essence, a religious syncretism which merged various different religions together: the Tantric Buddhism of Tendai Mikkyo and Shingon Mikkyo (the single BIGGEST influence on the ninja, very similar to Tibetan Buddhism's Vajrayana teachings); the teachings and asceticism of Zen Buddhism (the smallest influence); the naturalist and animistic teachings of secular (not religous) Shinto; and the mysticism of Taoism (called Dokyo in Japanese) and Taoist magic (called Onmyodo in Japanese). There was very little, if any, Confucian teaching.
-------------------------
"But I think the biggest problem we have in trying to understand which is which is what Hollywood and the rest of the pop culture media has done to distort and dilute and confuse things."
--------
Amen to that. But Eastman and Laird seemed to keep things pretty accurate in the comics and first movie.
----------------------------------------------
"Actually, make that Christianity that dominaits Korea, not Catholicism."
-------
You do know that about three-fourths of the world's Christians are Catholic, right?? :goofygri: :goofygri:
------------------------------------------
"Though, they are far more tolerant toward the ways of free China thatn they are of Communist China and Japan. In fact, my husband declares that Japan had borrowed/stolen many of the ways the Koreans did things. Adapt to Japanese rule, they did not wish to do."
---------
Yeah, Communism sucks. Free Tibet!!!!

I think your husband fails to acknowledge how many, many cultures have been influenced by others. The Japanese, for example, 'stole' much more from Chinese than Korean (although the Japanese spoken language is very similar to Korean, not Chinese). The Koreans 'stole' just as much from the Chinese as the Japanese stole from them. The idea that any culture is completely original in every regard is quite ludicrous.

On a personal note, I must add that when I spent some time in Japan I noticed (and my Japanese teachers admitted) that many Japanese have an extreme bigotry against Koreans. I dont know the source of this hatred but it is there.

[GreenWillow]

~Wow. that's right. The Bushido/Samurai principles do align with Confucian philosophy....I quoted some text on Bushido (along with several other things) when I assembled my Leo Shrine. http://www.behindthemasks.com/greenwillow/leoshrine.htm

I guess that sort of implies that Leo, a Ninja, practices the Samurai Bushido. That's not what I meant to say, only that those teachings seemed to fit his personal nature.

The thing that most stands out for me as the bottom line difference between the two philosophies is that Confucius held that that Highest Law was Man's Law, and Lao Tzu described the Highest Law as being Nature. Upon reading that, lo these many years ago, decided I was definitely Taoist. :)
And HT, I came up with the "predominately Catholic" info from a demographics study done several years ago. It could certainly be outdated now.

~GW

[HorseTechie]

(( wonders how many posts will pass until you guys figure out the quoting system -- yes, I'm having a hard time figuring who said what on first glance ))


You do know that about three-fourths of the world's Christians are Catholic, right?? :goofygri: :goofygri:
True.. but I was refering to Korea. :wink:

Then there is also the matter of Catholic Christians, and Protestant Christians. I'm the latter.. and most of us (it's a shameful habit) usually frown on the ways of the Catholics.

Whether or not it's catholic or protestant (I've heard they even have a church that has united into one form of Christian religion).. S Korea has churchs scattered everywhere! I was in Seoul last spring to actually witness this. You can look out a stretch of landscape in the city, and see at least three crosses perched high on steeples amongst the buildings.

I think your husband fails to acknowledge how many, many cultures have been influenced by others. The Japanese, for example, 'stole' much more from Chinese than Korean (although the Japanese spoken language is very similar to Korean, not Chinese). The Koreans 'stole' just as much from the Chinese as the Japanese stole from them. The idea that any culture is completely original in every regard is quite ludicrous.
Oh, he acknowledges it, and he's cool about it. Many of their ancient ways have come from China, as much as they borrow from Italian and European fashions and American music and movies of today.

I failed to mention, the reason why many Koreans don't have warm n fuzzy thoughts about the Japanese, is that the Japanese hadn't gave credit back to Korea for the art, food, and culture styles they had 'borrowed'. Also back in the 1800's, Korea used to be spelled with a C. Then Japan was being immature and insisted it be spelled with a K, so Japan can be listed first above them. Then the wars come and gone, making things all the worse. The Japanese government does not admit and forgive, and traditional Korea decided to hold a grudge.

I try to remain nuetral to this though. It's just my husband being this way, after all he had learned in miliarty training there. (he's like Raph in that aspect) His sister is not the same way. She was in the same Japanese language class as I. Like many of the young generation Korean and Japanese, they tolerate each other okay, it seems.

I also went to Japan with my language class for a month in 1996 too. So yeah, I have also seen both sides of the tale.... and amazed still at the underlying cold war between the two. It only came back to me after I saw the Japanese version of TMNT1. No wonder my husband didn't like the fact I was a TMNT fan (if this was the version he might have seen... who knows).

...hrm... what was the original topic to this thread...? :goof:

[heretic888]

Well, Leonardo is mostly at a sociocentric/conformist level of development, so many of the theories of Bushido will align with much of his thinking.

I think I should emphasize that much of Bushido's principles are similar to the overall principles of Budo (martial way). However, a major discrepancy is that the budoka/ninja revere life as the highest value, whereas the bushi/samurai revere honor and 'face' over life. Budo also emphasizes respect and loyalty to one's family, teachers, and 'superiors' but not the blind subservience the samurai seek. Lastly, the samurai/bushi is concerned with dying gloriously whereas the budoka and ninja seek to live.

Now, dont get me wrong. Both bushido and budo have much in common: they revere honesty and justice; they advocate respect for others; they decry against stealing and lying; they upold values of compassion and serving others; and they prohibit unnecessary killing. However, the main difference is that the budo of the ninja hold life and freedom as the highest good, whereas the bushido of the samurai hold 'face' and obediance as the greatest.

The turtles are most definitely budoka, not bushi.

[GreenWillow]

Well, Leonardo is mostly at a sociocentric/conformist level of development, so many of the theories of Bushido will align with much of his thinking.
...... Lastly, the samurai/bushi is concerned with dying gloriously whereas the budoka and ninja seek to live.


~Ok, that does fly in the face of a common misconception about Ninja-- that they, like the kamikazi of WWII have no problem with sacrificing their lives toward accomplishing the end. The kamikazi, it seems, took their philosophical stance right out of the pages of the Samurai Bushido, dying for the Honor of the Emperor.
Soooo....Heretic, what do you think of Ashida Kim? He claims that the only true surviving Ninja now work in theatre.....

~GW

[heretic888]

Well, the ninja most certainly were prepared to die to protect their families. However, a ninja would NOT die for some egomaniacal warlord's 'honor' nor would a ninja kill himself over matters of 'face'. True ninja, influenced by Taoism, believed that life should be experienced to the fullest. You do not commit suicide, especially over matters of pride and social name.

Ashida Kim is a complete fake and a fraud. He does not practice anything even remotely similar to ninpo. Just look at his name: Ashida Kim. First name Japanese, last name Korean?? And he himself is a white guy??? Does that make any sense???

Please..... anyone that claims to teach 'ninjitsu' and emphasizes the 'million ways of painful death' and 'how to kill a 300 pound man with your eyeleash within a week's worth of training' is obviously full of ****. By the way, its spelled ninjutsu NOT ninjitsu. The spelling is another way you can tell the authentic from the fraudulent.

[GreenWillow]

~I figured that's what you'd say. I had bought.....what was it? "Secrets of Ninja Invisibility" by Ashida Kim ten years ago...ostensibly for my kids. Read some of it and thought, well, here's a load of b.s. :P
The worst thing is that in reading that I decided that ninjutsu was a lost art, if it ever really existed at all, and that there probably weren't any actual "experts", just people who claimed to have knowledge and were hoping to cash in on the Ninja fad. So I never really went looking for anything credible.
So, Heretic, about this reading list you cited somewhere here, what do you recommend as a good place to start?

~GW

[heretic888]

if you are sincerely interested in authentic ninjutsu, i would suggest reading the following books ( in no particular order):

-"Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Masaaki Hatsumi
-"The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" by Stephen K. Hayes
-"Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior" by Stephen K. Hayes
-"Essense of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions" by Masaaki Hatsumi
-"The Mystic Arts of the Ninja: Hypnotism, Invisibility, and Weaponry" by Stephen K. Hayes
-"Ninpo: Wisdom for Life" by Masaaki Hatsumi
-"The Grandmaster's Book of Ninja Training" by Masaaki Hatsumi
-"Taijutsu: Ninja Art of Unarmed Combat" by Charles Daniel
-"Traditional Ninja Weapons" by Charles Daniel

A really good series for beginners is Hayes's five-part ninja series by Ohara Publications:
-"Ninja Vol. 1: Spirit of the Shadow Warrior"
-"Ninja Vol. 2: Warrior Ways of Enlightenment"
-"Ninja Vol. 3: Warrior Path of Togakure"
-"Ninja Vol. 4: Legacy of the Night Warrior"
-"Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warrior"

Once you start to REALLY get into ninpo philosophy and theory, i would suggest Glenn J. Morris's trilogy:
-"Path Notes of an American Ninja Master"
-"Shadow Strategies of an American Ninja Master"
-"Martial Arts Madness: A User's Guide to the Esoteric Martial Arts"

I would also recommend Kirtland C. Peterson's "Mind of the Ninja: Exploring the Inner Power" after you have familiarized yourself with the books by Hayes and Hatsumi.

The taijutsu book by Charles Daniel, the five part "Ninja" series, and "Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior" and "Mystic Arts of the Ninja" are the best books for actually trying to teach yourself ninjutsu techniques.

Completely AVOID books by Ashida Kim, Charles Dux, Katsumi Toda, and Christopher Hunter. Also avoid books claiming to talk about "Koga" style ninjutsu (they are fake).

If you want to actually learn the art, I suggest the Bujinkan Dojo, which is headed by the only living ninjutsu soke/grandmaster (Masaaki Hatsumi). You could also search for Bujinkan sites online. There are plenty.

Hope all this helps.

[Kali]

One of these days I swear I'm gonna own more than just Masaaki Hatsumi's "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition".

[heretic888]

:lol:

lucky, crazy, obsessive me! i own 90% of the books i mentioned!

[Spike The Xenomorph]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................. Who is Ninjara?

Please send pic.

PS: Sorry but I just joined this wbst today like 1/2 an hr ago.

[azure turtle]

Ninjara was a character in the Archies comics. I don't know too much about her, since I've only begun collecting that series... You can probably find a picture of her at the official site, but I don't know for sure.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Oh, ok, thanks!

[azure turtle]

No problem! Anything to help out a Xenomorph in need. ;)

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Cool!

[heretic888]

Did you guys ever get around to reading any of the books I cited?? :D

[Tetsu Deinonychus Power-5]

-"Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior" by Stephen K. Hayes

Wow! My father had that book!
I read it all the time until my house burned down!
That's where I learned most of what I know!
You Rock Man! :D

[heretic888]

Yes, that was the first Ninjutsu book I ever purchased. It's kind of worn and tattered now, but still a great source for information. A very good book for beginners (like myself :P ), and Hayes is an excellent writer.

[BIC Donie]

Hello heretic