The DC Rebirth Era Discussion Thread
 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/...a-filmtv-bent/

:lol:

And yeah, all of this is to create more synergy with the movie branding it seems.

Why are comic books so complicated?

I'll take 70 years of canon over the continuous rebooting and relaunching, and especially the whole "nothing is canon anymore, let's make a million nr1's".

I thought it was a joke and expected to see April 1st on the original post. I read DC was going to look into what series it could double up and go bi-weekly on. The mindset was the best selling titles would sell twice as much. I remember the two titles I read being among the mentioned. New number ones without a continuity reboot?

Oh for fvck's sake... :trolleye::tgrumble:

This is why I never got invested in comic books.

So in other words, DC is pulling a Marvel? Oh joy...

All-New all different.


Again...

And the first major change as a result of this relaunch is Scott Synder is stepping down from the main Batman title, but will remain attached to the character as he is turning back to Detective Comics

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/...ective-comics/

And this was just tweeted by Didio and Jim Lee

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-conte...RAWcAEl54H.jpg

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/...-just-tweeted/

are you kidding me

Seriously, if the New 52 didn't really pan out in the long run, can we just go back to Pre-Flashpoint already? Keep what works and restore a better universe with some decent history and depth? That seems like a better option than rebooting every 5 years.

Scott Snyder is the ONLY writer I read in the New 52 consistently.

Birds of Prey was great while it had Starling; Nightwing and Grayson are okay; some of Detective Comics was good...

But only Snyder is amazing. Because he kept carrying on, reboot be damned.

Friends have told me for ages to drop Marvel and read DC, and I've tried... But as soon as I find something I like they cancel it.

I felt bad during the Nu 52, because I realized they were rebooting to get people like me to read. Folks not familiar with their books. But... They just didn't speak to me.

This time, so not my fault.

And this folks, is why I don't read comics outside of TMNT and Usagi Yojimbo.

I'll stick to the cartoons. Its amazing how nowadays cartoons are much better than comics. Thank god I have my cartoon shows. :lol:

DC does this stuff way more often

People don't get it, it didn't used to be like this. DC was great about consistency for years, they had ONE major reboot in 75 years, back in '86. Sometimes individual characters would have backstories "tidied up" or old stuff would be swept under the rug but all this recent retcon/reboot sh*t is 100% Dan DiDio and his cronies, who make every editorial decision based on Sales Panic. That guy is like the single worst thing to EVER happen to DC as an entity.

Anyone trying to get into reading DC comics would have no problem doing so if they ignored most everything before "Crisis on Infinite Earths", used that as a starting point, and just followed the company's line from 1986 through 2010. Everything between that is really not at all complicated, although a lot of stuff in the late-90s simply wasn't very good but it was still consistent and recognizable. None of the stuff they did in between like Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis really had a huge effect on any continuity, mostly just minor tweaks to things readers already knew but nothing world-breaking. And most people don't need to bother with anything pre-1986, anyway, the Silver/Bronze Age was pretty unrelentingly silly and all the best stuff is easily found in TPBs, and the rest is junk best left ignored anyway.

Point is, DC really DID have a great universe, and a great mythology, that really anyone should get into and enjoy, BUT that Universe starts at Crisis and dissolves at the end of Flashpoint. But you really can't go wrong with the 25-year run in between. They've done nothing at ALL since 2010 that I've enjoyed, but I still highly encourage anyone to check out the "real" DCU from 1986-2010. For one thing, all the cartoons everyone jerks off to borrowed 99% of their stories from the books of that era, so if nothing else it's worth it to see where those stories first came from.

The constant shift towards "It's not selling? REBOOT!" since about 2005 is all DiDio. The editors and not the writers have been steering DC the wrong way for a decade, because ALL they care about is beating Marvel in sales which means "Events, Reboots, and Mega-Deaths of Major Characters" because that's supposedly what pushes sales. DC's sales have NEVER actually supported that theory, but it's the one DiDio subscribes to and what every new direction is based on.

Comics would be more fun if they weren't now a business aimed at only at selling action figures. That's really all they are anymore. It's 100% profit-driven and not story-driven. Both companies are guilty of it, but Marvel was actually run (into the ground) by a toy company for a years and years, to the point people got used to it, and plus the writing hadn't been that company's focus in decades, anyway, they've always been more a "Superstar Artists on Big Event Books" comic company than a story-driven one. DC's line was always more story-driven, and once it became all about the Big Events that was the end. It took them so far away from what they were actually about as a company and the way they did super-hero books. Now they're literally no different from Marvel, and not in any good way.

So yeah, f*ck modern DC. If they're doing anything other than, "Just kidding about Flashpoint and the New 52, we're just pretending everything since 2009 never happened!", it's not worth the effort.

Try New 52 Birds of Prey. Starling was an amazing character I think you'd like...

I know Batman will largely go untouched (like when New 52 launched), but they need to go back to Jason Todd being dead and Damian being gone entirely. Bringing Damian back to life and giving him super powers was the dumbest thing I've seen in some time. Two dead Robin's coming back to life, can you be more creatively bankrupt?

Go back to the Nightwing and Tim Drake scenario. As for Barbara I'm conflicted because I like her as Batgirl but wouldn't mind her being Oracle again either.

Amen dude. The dcu prior to Flashpoint had its downside with all the dead characters they didn't want to bring back, but it was and is still leaps and bounds better than this crap they are publishing now. Crew cut Superman. BatIronMan. Green hoodlum Lantern... ugh.

Some books have worked, like Batman.... but nearly everything else I could do without.

The TV related series have all been great. Flash, Arrow and the long cancelled Smallville and a few others....

DC has become too dark and no history. Flash and no bang. It's like a drumstick that's all fat... it smells yummy but even the dog won't eat it...

Geez. Normally, I don't read DC comics, so I usually can care less, but seriously? I thought the new 52 was suppost to be soooooo great. Frankly, I think they should just reprint all their old issues starting with action comics #1. That way, they would have at least 75 years worth of good comics. (Same with marvel with Capt. America #1. I only collect pre 2001 marvel comics.)

Not to the extant Marvel does.

Let's take a look over some of the "creative" decisions that have been made over Marvel thanks to the films. Nick Fury being replaced by Nick Fury Jr. who just happens to look like Samuel Jackson, Scarlett Witch and Quicksiliver no longer mutants, the sudden focus on the Inhumans, etc. See where I'm going with this?

I can't recall the last DC character whose backstory and characterization was heavily modified to match up with either their cinematic or television counterpart.

Well, when Superman Returns (and more specifically, the Richard Donner Cut of Superman II) were released, the comics started tweaking everything Krypton-related in the mythology so that it resembled Donner's "Giant Ice Chandelier" version, and Superman briefly had an S-shield belt buckle like in "Returns". But it didn't really take, partly because the Superman comics and movies have never had anything in common anyways. It was a superficial change that went away very quickly.

And they also made Batman's costume black after the movie did it, but that took a couple years, and, again, wasn't permanent.

Huh. Yeah, DC really hasn't ever made a huge deal about the comics resembling the movies. They try it sometimes for like two months and then just stop. Comic readers, historically, don't respond to it, usually because they specifically prefer the comics over the other media and resent things from the movies/TV shows being awkwardly forced in.

Dick Grayson died and came back, too. Three Robins.

Stephanie Brown died and came back as well. FOUR Robins.

Stephanie wasn't really dead, though, she faked it (in a bad retcon, but still).

As for Grayson, I can't stress enough that nothing from New 52 counts in any meaningful discussion. If even 1% of it is still being referenced as canon in 10 years, then fine, we can start maybe acknowledging some of it. Until then it's nothing but a rancid abortion.

How did Dick die recently? I thought he only faked his own death, but he didn't actually die.

You are correct. He traded the Spyral spy agency for membership in the Court of the Owls. DC has not know how to write Dick Grayson. Nothing ever sticks with the character that has the greatest potential in its stable of characters.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...in-robin-war-2

The problem is, the only natural progression left for Grayson is to become Batman, and to do that, Bruce Wayne has to be dead, and they won't ever do that "for reals". It's frustrating, in that Grayson is a "legacy character" two times over, who has outgrown his prior legacy entirely (Robin) but can't fully grow into his other destined role (Batman) because the rule of comics says that the status quo must always be maintained, which means Bruce is never going away for any real amount of time, so Dick will never really get to replace him.

I liked the little experiment they tried with it a few years ago, but for one thing, it was too short, and secondly, it should have been Dick and Tim as Batman and Robin, not Dick and Damien, as Damien should never have existed in the first place. I was really looking forward to seeing Dick and Tim as Batman and Robin, as it was the next logical step for everything involving those characters, and with the two being step-brothers (as well as Dick seeing Tim as an equal, whereas Bruce has never seen any of his partners as equals) it would have given the Batman/Robin partnership a fresh new dynamic. Instead they did what they did instead and it was underwhelming. They had to rush Bruce back into the picture because of sales panic, and forced Damien into it because... I'll never understand why. Either way, good set-up, flat execution.

But yeah, since they don't know what to do with Grayson, they keep trying to just kill him or sideline him. Or just write him completely out of character to justify whatever new "role" they want him to fill. It's frustrating.

Hopefully Superman gets his undies back along with the traditional costume.
I also hope John Romita Jr is rebooted, or just simply booted from the book.

To everyone except Bruce, he was dead for close to 2 years, I think.

Funny thought: the New 52 Reboot is INCREDIBLY SEXIST. Think about it... of Batman's extended family of sidekicks, there are four guys and four girls:

Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne
Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown

The four guys survived with most of their preNu52 histories intact--but the girls? Not at all. Pretty much wiped clean and turned into blank slates.

Because apparently you can fit four Robins into five years, but four Batgirls? Hell no. :trolleye::tgrumble:

I was hoping this thread meat that they were going back to pre-flashpoint with the old number system. I'm bummed I can't own a copy of Action Comics #1000.

So I can get into it right before it's completely rebooted...again?
Nah, I'm good.

That's probably because with the exception of Batman....DC movies haven't been as widely received as Marvel's have been.

Nick Fury being Sam Jackson was something that was suggested in the Marvel Ultimate Universe before Sam Jackson played Fury in the MCU.

But yeah, I'll never get why the Big Two just don't embrace movie tie in comics, rather than reshaping their entire continuity to reflect movie changes.

They should just make series set in the movie-verse like they do with TV shows.

They made Smallvile Season 11 in comics, and now there's a Supergirl comic based on the TV show. It says a lot that we have a comic based on a TV show based on a comic.

Wait, Dick "died"? Even if he faked it if the whole DCU thought that for two years it would still be a huge shock everywhere. I always thought they would save his death for a Crisis event. He is probably the most connected person in the entire DCU, he is literally an ally of everyone there his death would really have a bigger impact than Batman's death since unlike Bruce he isn't a recluse and only Superman's death would be more shocking to the DCU.


This relaunch if it brings back things to the old DC it would be good but I don't see that happening, if it "mixes" the timelines a bit it would be good. DC and Marvel have had hard and soft-reboots forever, I don't see how this is a big deal anymore. And DC isn't stupid to not go back to their old numbering systems for their big issues like AC#1,000.

Comics have and will always be a mess so to me the best way to follow DC or Marvel is to read story arcs you're interested in and catch up on the backstory through wikis. You can read as much as you want and that's it you only enjoy stuff and don't have to worry about the mess that it really is.

Oh, it's even better than that! You can get into it for... twenty issues, I think, before editorial and writer changes shaft the character. I think the New 52 run went through 4 major creative changes before it ended? Maybe 5? It was glorious. Only redeeming feature was Starling.

DC's Bat-Books doing well in the BC bestsellers list

1. Batman #48
2. Star Wars #15
3. Deadpool #6
4. Uncanny X-Men #2
5. Harley Quinn #24
6. Batman & Robin Eternal #16
7. New Avengers #5
8. Uncanny Inhumans #4
9. I Hate Fairyland #4
10. Poison Ivy #1


Scott Synder in the meantime has tweeted a bit about his impending departure from the main Bat-book

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/...-scott-snyder/


That actually almost happened in Infinite Crisis. Didio wanted Dick dead (which is why he and Babs were allowed to be engaged at the time, knowing they were going to deny them a happy ending) but the writers fought him on it and finally, because the Superboy lawsuit was going on, it was settled on Connor dying instead. Dick was spared, his engagement to Babs was called off, and he had the stint as Batman (the pre-flashpoint versions would eventually get married in Convergence)

I didn't know Dick died. What issue did that happen in?

He did'nt die. He faked his death after he was publicly unmasked in "Forever Evil" and worked as an agent for Spiral. He's since come out and revealed he's alive to all his friends.

Yes, that ticks me off. Dan specifically told me who his least favorite characters were at a DC Nations panel. Who are they? Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon, Ted Kord, and Michael Carter. The first two are my two personal favorites and the latter two are my younger siblings'. So my family has a grudge against the know nothing. Dick, he claimed was nothing more than repetitive. What the bloody heck is Jason Todd? The poster boy of that from his conception in the DC office in December '82, not to mention since reviving the character he has had less direction than Dick who at the very least has had consistent characterization (ignoring the wrost run ever aka Bruce Jones seven issues). Sorry, I get passionate about my favorite DC Comics character. Besides, Leo is correct. He needs to become Batman like Wally became The Flash. Its the final step for the character and 76 years in its time, but it cant happen. Make Dick 12 year old in a reboot or make him Batman with Bruce an Oracle-like figure and mayor of Gotham.

Every time DiDio opens his mouth, you realize he's the single worst thing to happen to comics, period, in decades. From romanticizing heroes who kill over heroes who won't, turning those that won't INTO killers, having people like Batman who would NEVER tolerate murderers as partners or even associates suddenly be all chummy with psychopaths like Jason and Damien, turning "free-spirited" female characters like Starfire into full-blown sluts, killing off much-beloved secondary characters so that heroic characters can now have "dark, tragic" backstories...

The guy's a f*cking idiot. Could be because his background is in TV and not writing comics, TV writing is like the single lowest common denominator for "shock value" storylines and otherwise flat-out trash. It's no surprise to me someone that functionally-retarded could fail upwards in that industry, enough to gain a foothold in a "less demanding" medium like comic books.

DC under Levitz had definitely become a meandering, aimless mess from around 1999-2002, what with the complete lack of continuity between books (even those starring the same character), no direction to speak of, and flat-out boring stories with awful art... so yeah, the first two years of DiDio's run on top were a breath of fresh air by comparison, sure. I admit, the guy even had me fooled. But everything the guy has championed post-Infinite Crisis and 52 has been a DISASTER. The "Sales First, Story Second" approach to running DC has NOT worked.

The only time in its history that DC has ever shined, was when Mike Carlin and Denny O'Neil were running most of it. And those years were GLORIOUS. Mark my words, no amount of retcons and relaunches will EVER bring DC back to the heights they hit from 1986 to 1996. I mean, I called it way back in the late 90s when they fired Dan Jurgens off the Superman books, despite being one of exactly four people who actually know how to write Superman, and possibly THE best Superman writer in history. Why fire him? "Eh, time for a change." :roll: That was the very first awful decision DC Editorial made and it was all downhill from there.

The upside is, even if I focus strictly on collecting and reading DC from 1986 through Flashpoint, that'll still take the rest of my life and I never have to pay attention to this new garbage.

For all the criticism '90s comics get (and much of it richly deserved), I still have a huge love for '90s DC and have found a larger appreciation for it in a lot of ways. Even when they did their big "extreme replacement" stunts with Batman and Superman, there was a satirical point to them, where the purpose of the storyline showed that the trendy "edgy and violent" replacements were inferior in every way to the icons they'd sidelined. They found a clever way to cash in on market trends while reinforcing the strengths of their classic characters within the narrative.

But so many of the characters and runs back then are still so important to me. Mark Waid and Mike Weiringo on The Flash. Waid and Humberto Ramos' Impulse. Chuck Dixon's Robin series with Tim Drake. Dixon and Scott McDaniel on Nightwing. Peter David and Todd Nauck's Young Justice. Dan Jurgens on Superman, absolutely. And I can't vouch for the run as a whole as I haven't re-read it, but I'll argue for Kyle Rayner being a better main character for the concept of Green Lantern than Hal Jordan was/is, any day of the week. And it's more of a late-'80s into the early-'90s run, but Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle on Batman is all-time definitive to me.

...I could easily go on. Meanwhile, I don't think I could stand by even that many DC books in the past 5-10 years.

I like 90s comics.