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-   -   Another reason as to why reincarnation might be a perfect compromise. (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=59695)

neatoman 03-09-2018 10:01 AM

Another reason as to why reincarnation might be a perfect compromise.
 
So I've typically criticized the concept of Hamato Yoshi directly mutating into Splinter as an added complication, that it's just the first step towards turning the Ooze into a catch all plot device. Not to mention how David Wise, in all his infinite hackiness, couldn't present it in a sensical way. While I still stick to that, I just realized there's another reason it sucks, it kills the point of Splinter being a mutant in the first place.

See here's the deal, Splinter is a mutant so he would be able to exact revenge, something he wouldn't be able to do as a normal rat. Of course, if Hamato Yoshi just lives, what the point of mutating or taking revenge? He already fled the country and the mutation didn't add anything in case he wanted revenge. There's the argument that it explains how he has the knowledge to teach but, again, why mutate him at all then? To make us sympathise with him? The versions that depict him as a mutated Yoshi just has him being chill about it, probably to give him a reason to stay that way when they also depict a cure. Not to mention how any other drama just seems to be unrelated to the mutation itself. Point is, all you get with mutant Yoshi is a theme without payoff.

Of course, there's the reincarnation. When it comes to reincarnation origin you get to keep the reason for revenge, as well as the enabling of revenge. It also solves the nitpicks the Mutant Yoshi advocates base their entire arguments on, without tearing new holes in the story.

Does anyone else agree?

Andrew NDB 03-09-2018 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman (Post 1750635)
So I've typically criticized the concept of Hamato Yoshi directly mutating into Splinter as an added complication, that it's just the first step towards turning the Ooze into a catch all plot device. Not to mention how David Wise, in all his infinite hackiness, couldn't present it in a sensical way. While I still stick to that, I just realized there's another reason it sucks, it kills the point of Splinter being a mutant in the first place.

See here's the deal, Splinter is a mutant so he would be able to exact revenge, something he wouldn't be able to do as a normal rat. Of course, if Hamato Yoshi just lives, what the point of mutating or taking revenge? He already fled the country and the mutation didn't add anything in case he wanted revenge. There's the argument that it explains how he has the knowledge to teach but, again, why mutate him at all then? To make us sympathise with him? The versions that depict him as a mutated Yoshi just has him being chill about it, probably to give him a reason to stay that way when they also depict a cure. Not to mention how any other drama just seems to be unrelated to the mutation itself. Point is, all you get with mutant Yoshi is a theme without payoff.

Of course, there's the reincarnation. When it comes to reincarnation origin you get to keep the reason for revenge, as well as the enabling of revenge. It also solves the nitpicks the Mutant Yoshi advocates base their entire arguments on, without tearing new holes in the story.

Does anyone else agree?

I'm OK with the reincarnation thing. It makes for a lot of possibilities.

neatoman 03-09-2018 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB (Post 1750636)
I'm OK with the reincarnation thing. It makes for a lot of possibilities.

What about my analysis on why Splinter's mutation needs to be a key to revenge, as well as how that doesn't work with a mutated Yoshi? It's kind of the crux of this argument.

FredWolfLeonardo 03-09-2018 10:19 AM

I only think your criticism point is valid if Yoshi Splinter's main theme was revenge, which it never was. Both Original Cartoon and Nick Splinter believed that revenge was a bad thing and only fought Shredder out of necessity.

As for reincarnation, I don't view it as the holy grail of tmnt origins or anything but I think its just as good and valid as the other two origins.

neatoman 03-09-2018 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo (Post 1750641)
I only think your criticism point is valid if Yoshi Splinter's main theme was revenge, which it never was. Both Original Cartoon and Nick Splinter believed that revenge was a bad thing and only fought Shredder out of necessity.

That seems a little contrived and boring don't you think? If he only wants to fight him because it's necessary, then what's the point of being wronged? Wouldn't it be stronger if he had personal reasons?

Even if I like the Nickelodeon cartoon better than the Fred Wolf cartoon, I can't say either one is an example of good storytelling.

Candy Kappa 03-09-2018 11:32 AM

I really dislike the reincarnation angle in IDW, so I hope we never see that again in another incarnation.

Andrew NDB 03-09-2018 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa (Post 1750660)
I really dislike the reincarnation angle in IDW, so I hope we never see that again in another incarnation.

In terms of "what does this incarnation of TMNT bring new to the table," the reincarnation thing is probably the only thing I like at IDW.

AquaParade 03-09-2018 12:44 PM

The IDW series doesn't engage me enough to follow it monthly, but I do love the reincarnation aspect. It's fresh and full of potential.

ProphetofGanja 03-09-2018 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa (Post 1750660)
I really dislike the reincarnation angle in IDW, so I hope we never see that again in another incarnation.

Really? I'm the complete opposite, I feel that reincarnation should be included in every subsequent iteration of TMNT; it makes the blood feud between Saki and Yoshi legitimate rather than nonsensical

dawwe 03-09-2018 02:05 PM

I like the reincarnation thing. It gives us a cool tie to ancient Japan and keeps it personal and keeps a strong tie with Oroku Saki and Hamato Yoshi. One thing I would have liked though is if the turtles actually had grown up together for 15 years or however long it would be.

Though I do get it since we had Raphael be split from the group which I kinda dig and technically I guess they did spend some time growing up together.... as humans. Not to hate on the original origin story in Mirage which I do like, but I kinda prefer Splinter having been Hamato Yoshi himself since it gives him a stronger tie to Saki but I still get the whole honor and revenge thing from the original.

CyberCubed 03-09-2018 02:22 PM

The problem with the reincarnation angle is outside of Splinter/Shredder's backstories, it's rather forgettable with the Turtles themselves. Mainly because they were young teens when they died and they don't remember their past lives. It's also rarely brought up a lot of the time.

The reincarnation angle with just Splinter and Shredder is good though. It's a nice way to make their feud last centuries.

Andrew NDB 03-09-2018 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed (Post 1750698)
The reincarnation angle with just Splinter and Shredder is good though. It's a nice way to make their feud last centuries.

Yeah. Agreed. I'd probably confine it just to Splinter and Shredder myself.

Utrommaniac 03-09-2018 02:38 PM

I think it might be possible for at least some memories to be jogged, especially once they get more information on the nature of their reincarnation.

Mutant Ninja Anole 03-09-2018 11:41 PM

I like it (within the context of the comics) for the above stated reasons, splitting the difference between the common rat and mutated man origins for Splinter, gives weight to the Splinter/Shredder feud, etc.

I think it plays more into the Turtles personality than that though. The Turtles have always been Splinter’s sons, but now they are literally his sons. Sons he saw die in front of him. It also gives Teng Shen a larger role, as now she is their mother, and that aspect has come into play many times, like when Leo was brainwashed and when Donatello nearly died.

How much different, for good or for ill, this angle would have felt for me if they had gone ahead with the idea of Leo being Shredder’s biological son...I don’t know.

Something that I should mention: It lends a mystical aspect to the Ooze (we see it with Shredder’s first death, binding his soul to his body) as well. Don’t forget, Krang and the Utroms have a connection to ancient Japan as well! There may eventually be more of the Ooze’s soul binding abilities in the future.

Utrommaniac 03-09-2018 11:47 PM

I'm pretty sure the soul-binding elements of the Ooze has something to do with the "QNA" samples that Krang wanted Ma'riell to collect at the epilogue of #50.



Whatever "QNA" is, anyway.

AquaParade 03-11-2018 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed (Post 1750698)
The problem with the reincarnation angle is outside of Splinter/Shredder's backstories, it's rather forgettable with the Turtles themselves. Mainly because they were young teens when they died and they don't remember their past lives. It's also rarely brought up a lot of the time.

The reincarnation angle with just Splinter and Shredder is good though. It's a nice way to make their feud last centuries.

Agreed. And I think there's a lot of power in ambiguity. For instance, Saki could still take the lives of Yoshi`s family, while leaving it open-ened as to whether or not the turtles he finds in the future are them in spirit, reincarnated, or just another random element in life that bears meaning to him.

Raptor86 03-12-2018 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac (Post 1750831)
I'm pretty sure the soul-binding elements of the Ooze has something to do with the "QNA" samples that Krang wanted Ma'riell to collect at the epilogue of #50.



Whatever "QNA" is, anyway.


Yeah, I hope the QNA thing will be addressed eventually...

DNA = DeoxyriboNucleic Acid
RNA = RiboNucleic Acid 

QNA has probably nothing to do with Nucleic Acid though.

pferreira 03-15-2018 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman (Post 1750635)
So I've typically criticized the concept of Hamato Yoshi directly mutating into Splinter as an added complication, that it's just the first step towards turning the Ooze into a catch all plot device. Not to mention how David Wise, in all his infinite hackiness, couldn't present it in a sensical way. While I still stick to that, I just realized there's another reason it sucks, it kills the point of Splinter being a mutant in the first place.

You still can't get your head around this yet you think the reincarnation thing that IDW (which is preposterous) fixes all these 'issues'? :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo (Post 1750641)
I only think your criticism point is valid if Yoshi Splinter's main theme was revenge, which it never was. Both Original Cartoon and Nick Splinter believed that revenge was a bad thing and only fought Shredder out of necessity.

Agreed, it's works better for the character at least in those versions.

Utrommaniac 03-15-2018 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor86 (Post 1751135)
Yeah, I hope the QNA thing will be addressed eventually...

DNA = DeoxyriboNucleic Acid
RNA = RiboNucleic Acid 

QNA has probably nothing to do with Nucleic Acid though.

That is an idea that I could probably put money on if I were a betting person.


I am going to make a proposition that Krang probably had intentions of cloning the Hamatos, but never got a chance to on account of things getting to bad in the war and he had to turn his attention to getting as many of his people to safety as possible.

Coola Yagami 03-16-2018 09:00 AM

It makes the connection between Splinter and Shredder much more personal, and a feud that transcends centuries. And it shows that Shredder is not above having children executed.


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