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-   -   Oroku Nagi: Who needs him? (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=44057)

Jester 08-09-2013 05:57 PM

Oroku Nagi: Who needs him?
 
So....even in stories that use Tang Shen and Yoshi's relationship in stories, they seem to scrap Oroku Nagi, Shredder's older brother who's murder at the hands of Hamato Yoshi for crimes against his beloved sparked the whole feud between the Turtles and Shredder in the first place.

Since he's easily supplanted by his own brother (in the 1st movie and most recently the Nick toon.) or some generic orphan "brother" to Yoshi himself, does the Turtles lore even need Oroku Nagi?

Slade 08-09-2013 06:06 PM

I'm going to say no, seeing as until early last year, I never even knew about him.

Joey Kamikaze 08-09-2013 06:10 PM

Well, the original Mirage TMNT #1 was supposed to a one-shot parody of Daredevil, right? The Shredder dies in the first issue, and I don't think Eastman and Laird thought through any kind of personal rivalry between Oroku Saki and the Turtles when they wrote that first issue. They were trying to tell a tongue-in-cheek story about a ninja clan, honor, revenge, etc., and the little details weren't supposed to matter much outside setting up the fight in the climax. So Oroku Nagi fit into that story when it was a one-shot, but once the series came into its own, he became a footnote. Later, when different TMNT universes built on Oroku Saki's character and made him more of a focal point in the mythology, it made sense to streamline the narrative and give him a more personal vendetta against Hamato Yoshi, and Oroku Nagi officially became extraneous.

So no, in the context of an ongoing series, I'd say the mythology doesn't really need Shredder's brother. It's one of those false starts you see a lot at the beginning of stories that grow with the telling.

CyberCubed 08-09-2013 06:17 PM

I think it was so Shredder killed someone Yoshi loved (Tang Shen), then Yoshi killed someone Shredder loved (his brother Nagi), and then Shredder killed Yoshi.

...And then Splinter has the Turtles kill Shredder. In the Mirage universe the vengenence cycle works well.

Of course in other universes he's not really needed which is why he is dropped. Also I found it amusing the original toon made Shredder's brother into a Tokyo police cop.

Warboss74 08-09-2013 06:19 PM

I think the dynamic his place in the origin brings to the character of the Shredder and subsequently Splinter and the turtles is something I'd like to see explored in future turtle universes.

Jester 08-09-2013 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Kamikaze (Post 1138011)
Well, the original Mirage TMNT #1 was supposed to a one-shot parody of Daredevil, right? The Shredder dies in the first issue, and I don't think Eastman and Laird thought through any kind of personal rivalry between Oroku Saki and the Turtles when they wrote that first issue. They were trying to tell a tongue-in-cheek story about a ninja clan, honor, revenge, etc., and the little details weren't supposed to matter much outside setting up the fight in the climax. So Oroku Nagi fit into that story when it was a one-shot, but once the series came into its own, he became a footnote. Later, when different TMNT universes built on Oroku Saki's character and made him more of a focal point in the mythology, it made sense to streamline the narrative and give him a more personal vendetta against Hamato Yoshi, and Oroku Nagi officially became extraneous.

So no, in the context of an ongoing series, I'd say the mythology doesn't really need Shredder's brother. It's one of those false starts you see a lot at the beginning of stories that grow with the telling.

Well said sir. I'm surprised that Mirage never tried to expand on him. I mean, there's gotta be some story potential there. Do something with Nagi's relationship with Saki. Show the human side that made his death change Saki. (Well, that and supposedly the Foot's training.)


Off topic, but something just dawned on me....How does Splinter know about events that happen to Saki in Japan while he and the Hamato's are in NY?

Sorry....over thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed (Post 1138022)
I think it was so Shredder killed someone Yoshi loved (Tang Shen), then Yoshi killed someone Shredder loved (his brother Nagi), and then Shredder killed Yoshi.

...And then Splinter has the Turtles kill Shredder. In the Mirage universe the vengenence cycle works well.

BUT that's not how it works.

Yoshi killed Nagi to protect Shen, THEN years later Saki kills BOTH Shen and Yoshi in an act of revenge. The Turtles killing Shredder does close the loop, but there's no Shredder killing Shen so Yoshi kills Nagi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warboss74 (Post 1138027)
I think the dynamic his place in the origin brings to the character of the Shredder and subsequently Splinter and the turtles is something I'd like to see explored in future turtle universes.

As I said above, me too. So much untapped potential. May have to come up with a "fanon" story about Nagi.

tmnt transformer 08-09-2013 06:41 PM

I think that he was removed because it would make yoshi look like a bad guy...

Jester 08-09-2013 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmnt transformer (Post 1138048)
I think that he was removed because it would make yoshi look like a bad guy...

Thought crossed my mind. Heck, I've often thought it'd be cool to see a Turtle story that was just that, seeing Yoshi killing Nagi from the eyes of his little brother, the man who would be Shredder.

Coola Yagami 08-09-2013 06:59 PM

It would make things so much more intense. Especially if we sprinkle some flashbacks as Saki and Nagi chillin as bros during 'the good old days' before they ever met Yoshi and Shen.

Imagine how much more violent and insane 2012 Shredder would have been if Yoshi did kill his brother...?

Cipher 08-09-2013 07:45 PM

While Nagi's easily the most expendable element of the origin story (hence his never making it out of the comics), he does play an important role in Mirage.

He sets up the idea the Shredder is simply taking revenge against Yoshi, who wronged him, albeit with the guidance and manipulation of the Foot high-ups spurring him on. It makes Splinter's subsequent revenge on Shredder a little uglier.

We get: Saki avenging Nagi by killing Yoshi > Splinter avenging Yoshi by killing Shredder (through the Turtles) > A resurrected Shredder taking revenge upon the Turtles for his death (mixing April and Casey into things) > The Turtles returning to take revenge upon Shredder > The Foot and Foot Elite vowing to take vengeance upon the Turtles > Karai making the Turtles promise to help her avenge her daughter (while finally breaking the chain)

Which is all a lot more interesting and morally cloudy than it is when Saki is just stone-cold bad-guy. While he's not essential, Nagi is a huge benefit to any version attempting to look at the consequences of Splinter and the Turtles' vengeance, as Volume 1 of Mirage does. Saki only ever wanted the same thing Splinter did.

AquaParade 08-09-2013 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cipher (Post 1138091)
While Nagi's easily the most expendable element of the origin story (hence his never making it out of the comics), he does play an important role in Mirage.

He sets up the idea the Shredder is simply taking revenge against Yoshi, who wronged him, albeit with the guidance and manipulation of the Foot high-ups spurring him on. It makes Splinter's subsequent revenge on Shredder a little uglier.

We get: Saki avenging Nagi by killing Yoshi > Splinter avenging Yoshi by killing Shredder (through the Turtles) > A resurrected Shredder taking revenge upon the Turtles for his death (mixing April and Casey into things) > The Turtles returning to take revenge upon Shredder > The Foot and Foot Elite vowing to take vengeance upon the Turtles > Karai making the Turtles promise to help her avenge her daughter (while finally breaking the chain)

Which is all a lot more interesting and morally cloudy than it is when Saki is just stone-cold bad-guy. While he's not essential, Nagi is a huge benefit to any version attempting to look at the consequences of Splinter and the Turtles' vengeance, as Volume 1 of Mirage does. Saki only ever wanted the same thing Splinter did.

Great summary.

That everlasting thread of revenge provided the Mirage series with a very rich texture throughout it's existence. Am I losing anyone?

Tazi 08-10-2013 03:25 AM

...and there's also Pimiko and Lady Shredder.

***First of Two Latin Kings*** 08-10-2013 11:23 AM

I think Splinter is just able to assume that Saki was fueled by vengeance, and since New York is so far away and its hard to keep an eye on whoever they send, they're going to make SURE they send someone who is competent. So Saki had to train hard if he wanted the opportunity for revenge. I don't think its so much that Splinter is privy to what is happening in Japan as it is that he is simply insightful/able to put two and two together.

Birdman37 08-10-2013 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester (Post 1138039)

Off topic, but something just dawned on me....How does Splinter know about events that happen to Saki in Japan while he and the Hamato's are in NY?

Sorry....over thinking.

Am I mixing things up here or was Splinter not Yoshi's pet in Japan and he brought him to NY with him?

Mr._Mutant_Man 08-12-2013 12:30 AM

I think Nagi works with the satire aspect of the first issue. Having that extra character makes the backstory that much more convoluted.

Jester 08-12-2013 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman37 (Post 1138750)
Am I mixing things up here or was Splinter not Yoshi's pet in Japan and he brought him to NY with him?

He was....but the fled when Saki was still a boy.

Lampy 08-12-2013 01:31 AM

honestly, i believe that nagi isn't so important. his omission in recent turtles lore has only been positive and made the story less convoluted. in the original story, the nagi-yoshi-shen love triangle was fine. but it felt more like their respective brother/pet are fighting someone else's battles. then again... they were a clan and they are family members respectively. so it was fine. but it felt like a game of tag that spanned generations to me.

tang shen is tagged by nagi who is tagged by yoshi who is tagged by saki who is tagged by the turtles who were trained by the one who was supposed to tag saki.

nagi's omission made the feud simpler and in the nicktoon and idw's case, really personal... as they are the players that started the game (so to speak). and that to me makes more sense than spending 15 years preparing to kill the person who killed your master's master who killed your intended target's brother.
on the other hand, i liked the concept saki avenging his brother. also, with nagi gone, saki looks less like an avenging brother and more of a jealous prick. "if i can't have her, no one can!" i'm glad idw avoided that.

Powder 08-12-2013 05:07 AM

I'm with Lampy on this 100%, they've worded it well.

Bry 08-12-2013 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed (Post 1138022)
I think it was so Shredder killed someone Yoshi loved (Tang Shen), then Yoshi killed someone Shredder loved (his brother Nagi), and then Shredder killed Yoshi.

...And then Splinter has the Turtles kill Shredder. In the Mirage universe the vengenence cycle works well.

I've always liked this aspect of the Mirage run. All those moments where the cycle of vengeance is recognized/renewed really struck a chord with me. Vengeance perpetuates vengeance, and it never ends - it only brings hatred and death to everyone it touches. Heavy stuff!

This theme is lost a bit when you cut out Nagi and fold Splinter and Yoshi into one character, but it also makes sense for most adaptations to simplify the backstory. Ultimately it works either way, but I'm of the opinion that Nagi does have a strong narrative purpose.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan 08-12-2013 04:37 PM

He was created for the first story, to be published once (as all of the other characters were). Not to fit within a major franchise 30 years later.


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