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Old 01-06-2018, 04:34 AM   #20
newfan
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Okay so this post is in response to something posted by victory angel in the 2018 thread as the conversation had briefly lead to 2012 Shredder. Anyway my response will then also go onto Shredder and Karai so I thought to bring it here instead (Original post copied in a spoiler for length purposes)
Spoiler:

Shredder was too blinded to see what he always had.

His family was killed by the Hamato Clan. We don’t know the reason for that spacificly, but I don’t believe it was just for random reason. As far as we know, Oroku Saki’s birth parents could actually have been monsters. Shredder is found a as an infant and Hamato Yuuta makes the conscious decision to take pity on the child and raise him as his own.

He and Hamato Yoshi were raised as brothers, who lived as both as friends and rivals. While both were cared for, Saki more then likely saw Yoshi as the favored son which caused some of his anger to fester.

Years later they meet Tang Shen, and have a rivalry over her. Saki may have had a relationship with her for a time as he does ask her to take him back. Tang Shen at some point feels put off by him and runs to Yoshi instead. The two of them marry and have a child, but regardless of this Saki still wants to prove himself as the better man. Tang Shen is conflicted since she knows her husbend is devoted to his family and feels his clan should endure, but does not wish the life of a ninja upon her infant daughter.

Hamato Yuuta is sick during the fall of the Hamato Clan, and it’s somewhat implied that he is dying. Since one of the five judges of the underworld does judge you based on the lies you told in life. He probably felt he would have a better chance of entering a peaceful realm by revealing the truth of Saki’s origins. So he calls his adopted son to his side and tells him who he truely is. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have the desired effect. Instead it only proves in Saki’s mind that Yoshi was the favored son because he was the true born son. Little mind that he was cared for, that didn’t stop the fact he was stolen from his family and was raised to believe he was part of the family who murdered his parents. Regardless of who his parents actually could have been. In anger he likely would have killed Hamato Yuuta before gathering together any ninja who would loyally serve him and told them that he is from the Foot Clan and the Hamato Clan no longer deserves the right to exist.

Here he confronts Yoshi and Tang Shen. He give Tang Shen one last chance to choose where she belongs. Tang Shen however states that she has made her choice and begs her husbend and brother in law to stop this foolishness.

Oroku Saki unfortunately is beyond all reasoning and attacks his former brother and friend. Yoshi also finds no choice but to lash out at Saki, but he still leaves Saki every out he could think of to see the error of this mind set. In an attempt to get them to cease their fight, Tang Shen steps between them and is struck down. Saki is horrified since he killed her by his hand. Before he can process the travesty of what he has done his face is horribly burned and disfigured. He makes his way outside and finds Miwa where she had been safely put underneath a stone lantern. Knowing that she was the last shred of Tang Shen he had left he raised her as his daughter and gave her the name of Karai. Figuring that Yoshi somehow survived the fire, he deludes himself in to believing that Yoshi was the one who killed Tang Shen because he “poisoned” her mind against him.

As Karai grows, the Shredder raises her and trains her. He acts as a father must, though not so much the caring father side such as tending to her while she is sick. Getting down on the floor and playing with her or anything like that. But he did go through the motions of fatherhood for the most part. And when Karai displeased him in any way, there are hints of him being abusive towards her.

Over the years he cared for her, yes he did come to love her as his own child. But he also hated her because he would always see Hamato Yoshi’s features in her face. Every single day, seeing his enemies face in the face of his adopted daughter. So because of this he saw her as a tool for vengeance, a living weapon. How poetic it would be to see his enemy struck down by his flesh and blood.

However, his teaching also had an unintended effect as well. Mourning the mother who she never got to know, and angry at the man who took her mother from her. Karai’s interests are purely focused on vengeance, but after meeting Splinter she becomes more unhinged in her desire to avenge her mother. After she learns that Splinter is her true father, she becomes blinded by the desire to seek vengance against the man who is truely responsible for destroying her life.

After the Shredder’s death, when he faces Emma Daioh he is finally shown the scope of the ills he performed in life. And because of this he acknowledges that he doesn’t belong in the living world when he is forcing Kavaxas back into hell with him.


For the first part I think Hamato Yuuta killed Sakis family because they wiped out the enemy clan and they were the head of that.

As for the Shredder and Karai points....

I don't think Karai was purely focused on vengeance in the very start, that was more him, though she would wipe out her enemies and she was raised to do that she didn't want to kill Leo straight off, then with the Kraang she wanted to put vengeance aside to deal with something bigger. I do wonder what would have happened had the turtles not screwed up their alliance with her. Once Leo betrayed her then she went down the revenge road which was then, as you pointed out amplified when introduced to Splinter, she was more after him than anything after that.
When she found out about Shredder, that would have felt like a massive betrayal, she'd been tricked all of her life.... but yes, she did inherit a vengeful flare from her up bringing.

As for their relationship, we can mostly just guess on what was likely. No I don't see Shredder being the bedtime story type of guy either I didn't get the feeling that he also hated her though the thought that he would see his enemy in her did cross my mind, I figured maybe he saw Shen when I looked at her, he was willing to help raise her before Shen was killed. Trying to get her to kill her own father was evil but I don't know if it was hate for her or just that he was so focused on hurting Splinter that he had no regard for what he was doing to her.
We saw him threaten her with his blades for not wiping out Leo when she met him and she was scared of him (yet she still had her own plans there) After she finds out about everything her fear of him seems to go (anger and loss of love?) and after her vengeful attacks on him he doesn't want to kill her despite his threatening nature to her earlier on... but threats and carrying them out are different (not for anyone else who crossed him though )

As for End Times, yes, though he came back still full of vengeance he did have tiny small redemption when he pushed Kavaxas back to where he came from. I also thought that showed his strength to break free of the control he was under.

Last edited by newfan; 01-06-2018 at 06:57 AM.
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